Flat Stanley

YRALIS PHRF minutes

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From An outside perspective. It would seem valuable for PHRF committee members to race in the PHRF fleets. Rather than another rating rule division. Do those fleets even race on the same circles at major regattas?

In our fleet, the majority of the ratings committee not only race on PHRF boats, they sell PHRF boats, make sails for PHRF boats, and recommend upgrades for PHRF boats. Some are even world class sailors in their own right. Guess which PHRF boats tend to do really well in PHRF?

 

 

What on earth does doing really well in PHRF mean?

 

Is there some way of scoring who had more fun than who.

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Come on Mambo, give me a break. If you want to sit in your viper and tell me I'm stupid for sailing phrf, or taking it that seriously, that's fine. But it's the kind of sailing that I do (and yes, I sail OD too) and it's getting less fun as I and others realize that the PHRF-NE board protects its own interests, has no interest in even pretending to follow their bylaws, and has stated on the record that we all just need to shut up about it.

 

Now to be fair, I think that overall for most stock boats the PHRF numbers aren't terrible and a 3 or 6 s/m adjustment up or down really doesn't matter much. Most of the issues come once they start to add in the adjustments. For instance, how do you convert a J35 to a carbon mast, a custom rudder, an asym on a retractable pole and actually get rated SLOWER than a stock 35? How does a J111 rate 42 in NE when it's 30 - 39 in every other area of the country? How does my boat rate even or 3s faster than a B36.7 in NE, but in YRA not only are the 36.7s rated significantly slower, but I'm rated 3s/m faster? In ECSA the 36.7 and I are the same as in NE - don't ECSA and YRA cover a lot of the same water? you probably don't know since you've got that smug OD thing going ;)

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Ryley, That J35 doesn't make too much sense. -3 for the rig that could go -3 or -6. No penalty for the rudder? Is it the same weight? The cert does not say. The kite is oversize, I will have to see how their adjustment rules are written.

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Ryley, That J35 doesn't make too much sense. -3 for the rig that could go -3 or -6. No penalty for the rudder? Is it the same weight? The cert does not say. The kite is oversize, I will have to see how their adjustment rules are written.

I thought the PHRF comm let you change keels, rigs and rudders with no penalty?

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Ryley, That J35 doesn't make too much sense. -3 for the rig that could go -3 or -6. No penalty for the rudder? Is it the same weight? The cert does not say. The kite is oversize, I will have to see how their adjustment rules are written.

I thought the PHRF comm let you change keels, rigs and rudders with no penalty?

 

Noew you our bing funney :)

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One word for you Snaggletooth. Keelshoe. If ever there was a case where someone did something to enhance the performance of a one design boat racing in PHRF, it was the keelshoe incidentwith no adjustment to the boat's rating.

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I was looking at the other J35 from out of state on the PHRF-NE. I don't know how they get a recreational rating?

Recreational Adjustment +6 spm  Requirements o Limited sail inventory o Above or below deck jib roller furling with sail attached to a swivel o Polyester, pentex or Mylar only in working sails o No exotic sail materials such as Kevlar, spectra, technora, carbon o No vectran and/or modulus material can be used or added to sail material o Maximum of:  One nylon spinnaker  One jib with Lp > 110%  One jib with Lp =< 110% o Heavy weather jibs and storm sails are allowed. o Staysails are allowed if the boat has a true cutter rig and the staysail is used upwind. o Staysails are allowed if they are only used as part of the heavy weather/storm sail configuration.  In cases where the intent of this adjustment is not honored, the credit will be denied  The credit may also be reduced on performance boats to 3 spm.  Special roller furling sails are not allowed  As a rule of thumb, the foot skirt should not exceed 3% of the foot length in depth  If the boat is cutter rigged, the staysail must also be roller furling and be capable of being used upwind  J Boats with sprits are not eligible for the recreational handicap as the standard configuration has already been considered when establishing the base handicap

 

http://spectrumphotofg.ifp3.com/gallery/friday-green-circle/#/gallery/bbr16-yellow-fri/bbr16fry-0216-ifp3/

 

https://secure.headwaytechnology.com/www.phrfne.org/page/certificates/?phmode=viewcertificate&certid=PZVDVM-2017&cformat=pdf

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I was looking at the other J35 from out of state on the PHRF-NE. I don't know how they get a recreational rating?

Recreational Adjustment +6 spm  Requirements o Limited sail inventory o Above or below deck jib roller furling with sail attached to a swivel o Polyester, pentex or Mylar only in working sails o No exotic sail materials such as Kevlar, spectra, technora, carbon o No vectran and/or modulus material can be used or added to sail material o Maximum of:  One nylon spinnaker  One jib with Lp > 110%  One jib with Lp =< 110% o Heavy weather jibs and storm sails are allowed. o Staysails are allowed if the boat has a true cutter rig and the staysail is used upwind. o Staysails are allowed if they are only used as part of the heavy weather/storm sail configuration.  In cases where the intent of this adjustment is not honored, the credit will be denied  The credit may also be reduced on performance boats to 3 spm.  Special roller furling sails are not allowed  As a rule of thumb, the foot skirt should not exceed 3% of the foot length in depth  If the boat is cutter rigged, the staysail must also be roller furling and be capable of being used upwind  J Boats with sprits are not eligible for the recreational

 

 

handicap as the standard configuration has already been considered when establishing the base handicap

 

http://spectrumphotofg.ifp3.com/gallery/friday-green-circle/#/gallery/bbr16-yellow-fri/bbr16fry-0216-ifp3/

 

https://secure.headwaytechnology.com/www.phrfne.org/page/certificates/?phmode=viewcertificate&certid=PZVDVM-2017&cformat=pdf

 

Gull,

 

It was protested and changed after event but only changed the results of races 1 and 5 so they probably didn't bother changing the scoring system

 

It was an honest mistake by the owners who were told by sailmaker material didn't matter. So they sailed with smaller jibs and still kicked ass.

 

They have been successful with that boat under every rating system around NE the past 5 summers

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I was looking at the other J35 from out of state on the PHRF-NE. I don't know how they get a recreational rating?

Recreational Adjustment +6 spm  Requirements o Limited sail inventory o Above or below deck jib roller furling with sail attached to a swivel o Polyester, pentex or Mylar only in working sails o No exotic sail materials such as Kevlar, spectra, technora, carbon o No vectran and/or modulus material can be used or added to sail material o Maximum of:  One nylon spinnaker  One jib with Lp > 110%  One jib with Lp =< 110% o Heavy weather jibs and storm sails are allowed. o Staysails are allowed if the boat has a true cutter rig and the staysail is used upwind. o Staysails are allowed if they are only used as part of the heavy weather/storm sail configuration.  In cases where the intent of this adjustment is not honored, the credit will be denied  The credit may also be reduced on performance boats to 3 spm.  Special roller furling sails are not allowed  As a rule of thumb, the foot skirt should not exceed 3% of the foot length in depth  If the boat is cutter rigged, the staysail must also be roller furling and be capable of being used upwind  J Boats with sprits are not eligible for the recreational

 

 

handicap as the standard configuration has already been considered when establishing the base handicap

 

http://spectrumphotofg.ifp3.com/gallery/friday-green-circle/#/gallery/bbr16-yellow-fri/bbr16fry-0216-ifp3/

 

https://secure.headwaytechnology.com/www.phrfne.org/page/certificates/?phmode=viewcertificate&certid=PZVDVM-2017&cformat=pdf

 

Gull,

 

It was protested and changed after event but only changed the results of races 1 and 5 so they probably didn't bother changing the scoring system

 

It was an honest mistake by the owners who were told by sailmaker material didn't matter. So they sailed with smaller jibs and still kicked ass.

 

They have been successful with that boat under every rating system around NE the past 5 summers

 

 

Read the 2017 certificate. 2 spins, The recreational requirement from PHRF-NE says one spin. Never mind the sail material.

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I was looking at the other J35 from out of state on the PHRF-NE. I don't know how they get a recreational rating?

Recreational Adjustment +6 spm  Requirements o Limited sail inventory o Above or below deck jib roller furling with sail attached to a swivel o Polyester, pentex or Mylar only in working sails o No exotic sail materials such as Kevlar, spectra, technora, carbon o No vectran and/or modulus material can be used or added to sail material o Maximum of:  One nylon spinnaker  One jib with Lp > 110%  One jib with Lp =< 110% o Heavy weather jibs and storm sails are allowed. o Staysails are allowed if the boat has a true cutter rig and the staysail is used upwind. o Staysails are allowed if they are only used as part of the heavy weather/storm sail configuration.  In cases where the intent of this adjustment is not honored, the credit will be denied  The credit may also be reduced on performance boats to 3 spm.  Special roller furling sails are not allowed  As a rule of thumb, the foot skirt should not exceed 3% of the foot length in depth  If the boat is cutter rigged, the staysail must also be roller furling and be capable of being used upwind  J Boats with sprits are not eligible for the recreational

 

 

handicap as the standard configuration has already been considered when establishing the base handicap

 

http://spectrumphotofg.ifp3.com/gallery/friday-green-circle/#/gallery/bbr16-yellow-fri/bbr16fry-0216-ifp3/

 

https://secure.headwaytechnology.com/www.phrfne.org/page/certificates/?phmode=viewcertificate&certid=PZVDVM-2017&cformat=pdf

 

Gull,

 

It was protested and changed after event but only changed the results of races 1 and 5 so they probably didn't bother changing the scoring system

 

It was an honest mistake by the owners who were told by sailmaker material didn't matter. So they sailed with smaller jibs and still kicked ass.

 

They have been successful with that boat under every rating system around NE the past 5 summers

 

CTD, are you saying their rating was changed just for BBR? Because their cert for 2016 stayed at 78, and they had 2 spins declared on that one as well.

 

To your other point, they're good sailors, they run a multi-boat program, and 6 seconds isn't going to change much for them. That said, either PHRF-NE is gonna follow their bylaws or they won't. half the fun is guessing which and when ;)

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I was looking at the other J35 from out of state on the PHRF-NE. I don't know how they get a recreational rating?

Recreational Adjustment +6 spm  Requirements o Limited sail inventory o Above or below deck jib roller furling with sail attached to a swivel o Polyester, pentex or Mylar only in working sails o No exotic sail materials such as Kevlar, spectra, technora, carbon o No vectran and/or modulus material can be used or added to sail material o Maximum of:  One nylon spinnaker  One jib with Lp > 110%  One jib with Lp =< 110% o Heavy weather jibs and storm sails are allowed. o Staysails are allowed if the boat has a true cutter rig and the staysail is used upwind. o Staysails are allowed if they are only used as part of the heavy weather/storm sail configuration.  In cases where the intent of this adjustment is not honored, the credit will be denied  The credit may also be reduced on performance boats to 3 spm.  Special roller furling sails are not allowed  As a rule of thumb, the foot skirt should not exceed 3% of the foot length in depth  If the boat is cutter rigged, the staysail must also be roller furling and be capable of being used upwind  J Boats with sprits are not eligible for the recreational

 

 

handicap as the standard configuration has already been considered when establishing the base handicap

 

http://spectrumphotofg.ifp3.com/gallery/friday-green-circle/#/gallery/bbr16-yellow-fri/bbr16fry-0216-ifp3/

 

https://secure.headwaytechnology.com/www.phrfne.org/page/certificates/?phmode=viewcertificate&certid=PZVDVM-2017&cformat=pdf

Gull,

 

It was protested and changed after event but only changed the results of races 1 and 5 so they probably didn't bother changing the scoring system

 

It was an honest mistake by the owners who were told by sailmaker material didn't matter. So they sailed with smaller jibs and still kicked ass.

 

They have been successful with that boat under every rating system around NE the past 5 summers

CTD, are you saying their rating was changed just for BBR? Because their cert for 2016 stayed at 78, and they had 2 spins declared on that one as well.

 

To your other point, they're good sailors, they run a multi-boat program, and 6 seconds isn't going to change much for them. That said, either PHRF-NE is gonna follow their bylaws or they won't. half the fun is guessing which and when ;)

Honest mistake? I struggle to buy that. Its a lame excuse. To sign the cert, and the owner clearly applied for and signed off on the cert when the clarifying language is right there next to the box to check for the adjustment. Trust a sailmaker? Well i guess that sailmaker is an idiot then - logos clearly visible in the pics - i hope they got a roasting from the owner. But anyone racing - and certainly the boats winning - have zero excuses for not being compliant. Changing the results/scoring afterwards is hardly the point - if they know they weren't compliant with their rating then the sporting thing to do is retire and make 100% certain that they are legal next time they show up to race. And it sounds like their rating didn't change and there is still some question over the number of spinnakers they have onboard.

 

Is that several honest mistakes or an owner (who it sounds like is good enough to win without this nonsense) trying the game the system?

 

You decide.

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Come on Mambo, give me a break. If you want to sit in your viper and tell me I'm stupid for sailing phrf, or taking it that seriously, that's fine. But it's the kind of sailing that I do (and yes, I sail OD too) and it's getting less fun as I and others realize that the PHRF-NE board protects its own interests, has no interest in even pretending to follow their bylaws, and has stated on the record that we all just need to shut up about it.

 

Now to be fair, I think that overall for most stock boats the PHRF numbers aren't terrible and a 3 or 6 s/m adjustment up or down really doesn't matter much. Most of the issues come once they start to add in the adjustments. For instance, how do you convert a J35 to a carbon mast, a custom rudder, an asym on a retractable pole and actually get rated SLOWER than a stock 35? How does a J111 rate 42 in NE when it's 30 - 39 in every other area of the country? How does my boat rate even or 3s faster than a B36.7 in NE, but in YRA not only are the 36.7s rated significantly slower, but I'm rated 3s/m faster? In ECSA the 36.7 and I are the same as in NE - don't ECSA and YRA cover a lot of the same water? you probably don't know since you've got that smug OD thing going ;)

Enough already. If you want to sail phrf, fine. I think I speak for all OD sailors when I say that no OD sailor cares what you sail. What we hate is that you PHRFers continually bitch about your ratings. If you're unhappy with your rating, go do something about it. Hint : bitching on a sailing website doesn't qualify. Have you tried to get on your local PHRF committee ? Have you tried anything else other than whining ?

 

I understand that bitching about ratings is the biggest part of PHRF sailing. I have no problem with that. However, i think it should be limited to your local yacht club bar. That way you can get all drunked up and hopefully can get in a slap fight with your local phrf committee member or another phrf sailor whom you believe has a gift rating due to certain unnatural acts performed by said gift rating dude on local phrf committee member ( note double entendre ).

 

But please stop whining to the world, no one cares.

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I'm not sure I want to ever come out and race on the LIS.

But I do know that a Project Zap 26 is heading that way!!

 

Cool little boats, you don't see many of them around.

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The best thing to happen to PHRF was the publication of national reference ratings. The initial list is about 150 boats. It has helped our region already.

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I'm not sure I want to ever come out and race on the LIS.

But I do know that a Project Zap 26 is heading that way!!

 

Cool little boats, you don't see many of them around.

 

I know of 3 in so cal besides mine. One was just rescued headed your way, another was falling apart, I heard someone in SD might have rescued it but I cannot confirm. The third was chopped up.

Back in 2008 here in so cal, the PHRF Board Chief Rater had a bug up his ass for a specific MIR who was sailing a Zap for the owner. They won everything. So the rating was slammed from 144 ( a gift I agree) to Bouy 132 (doable), RLC 126 (not doable) OW 120 (not doable in any condition). The Zap fleet stopped racing almost immediately because the RLC and OW ratings were un-sailable. When I bought the boat, I had to dig through the meeting minutes to find the changes and bring it to the board's attention. I can say the the current So Cal board is very responsive to the transgressions of the past.

 

When you look at an SC 27 on paper the boats are almost identical. An SC27 rates 138, 138, 138. Giving and SC27 6sec/mi, 12sec/mi and 18 sec/mi is tough if not impossible. The board changed the ZAP Rating to 135, 135, 135, I now owe an SC 27 3sec/mi which many have said is fair. We race hard and try very hard not to make dumb mistakes, but most of all is to have fun.

 

The main thing I learned from this experience, when you go before the Regional Board, It does not matter what you ask for. They will do what they want once you have asked for a review. So my advice is to prepare properly and do not be elusive in your answers. I asked for a rating of 132, 132, 132 and to allow my Kites to be adjusted to the ISP, which is a few foot above the I dimension (Frac Rig). They gave me better after reviewing the 2 certs. The boat is just an 80's ULDB and nothing special. It is short on waterline but has low wetted surface. It really needs to be a Mast Head Rig. Wish I had $$$$

 

 

 

I sailed a Zap when they were brand new. Lots of fun.

 

Bob, if you are ever in the area this summer, you are welcome to join is for a Wed Wednesday race where it usually blows. Bring your foulies or a change of clothes :)

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Come on Mambo, give me a break. If you want to sit in your viper and tell me I'm stupid for sailing phrf, or taking it that seriously, that's fine. But it's the kind of sailing that I do (and yes, I sail OD too) and it's getting less fun as I and others realize that the PHRF-NE board protects its own interests, has no interest in even pretending to follow their bylaws, and has stated on the record that we all just need to shut up about it.

 

Now to be fair, I think that overall for most stock boats the PHRF numbers aren't terrible and a 3 or 6 s/m adjustment up or down really doesn't matter much. Most of the issues come once they start to add in the adjustments. For instance, how do you convert a J35 to a carbon mast, a custom rudder, an asym on a retractable pole and actually get rated SLOWER than a stock 35? How does a J111 rate 42 in NE when it's 30 - 39 in every other area of the country? How does my boat rate even or 3s faster than a B36.7 in NE, but in YRA not only are the 36.7s rated significantly slower, but I'm rated 3s/m faster? In ECSA the 36.7 and I are the same as in NE - don't ECSA and YRA cover a lot of the same water? you probably don't know since you've got that smug OD thing going ;)

Enough already. If you want to sail phrf, fine. I think I speak for all OD sailors when I say that no OD sailor cares what you sail. What we hate is that you PHRFers continually bitch about your ratings. If you're unhappy with your rating, go do something about it. Hint : bitching on a sailing website doesn't qualify. Have you tried to get on your local PHRF committee ? Have you tried anything else other than whining ?

 

I understand that bitching about ratings is the biggest part of PHRF sailing. I have no problem with that. However, i think it should be limited to your local yacht club bar. That way you can get all drunked up and hopefully can get in a slap fight with your local phrf committee member or another phrf sailor whom you believe has a gift rating due to certain unnatural acts performed by said gift rating dude on local phrf committee member ( note double entendre ).

 

But please stop whining to the world, no one cares.

 

Hey Nazi, in case you didn't notice the title of the thread, it contains the words PHRF. Since you're so happy in your OD world, wtf are you doing here? I forgot how perfect OD sailing is, what with disguised carbon rudders, mis-placed delrins, corrector weights missing or in the wrong place, painting bottoms so you can fair them in... carrying enough "drinking" water to lengthen a waterline by a few inches, hidden lead in the sumps.... Yeah.. OD is totally where it's at but thank god nobody bitches on a sailing website about that shit.

 

Oh wait: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=90176

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=160240

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=82661

 

I particularly like this quote:

I'm stating the way the boat is sailed, you are stating the way the boat should be sailed. Your goody two shoes, candy ass would get owned in such a competitve fleet with the attitude of play by the rules. I am simply telling you if you want to win any big laser regatta, you have to use questionable kinetics. This is more so than anyother fleet. I have seen so many rule 42 violations at every event that I go to, that I can't count them at the end of the day. But, usually competitors look the other way and don't protest. This may or may not be an issue depending on how you look at it. You should get in the mind set of how to win.... then you would understand. This, however does not mean I am condoning cheating in anyway!

 

 

but whatever, man. of course you know best.

 

p.s. in case you weren't paying attention, this thread isn't really about bad ratings, it's about bad rating practices, closed boards and processes, and lack of transparency that passes for fairness. And thank you for the instructive method of how we should deal with it - your opinion matters!

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Not sure how YRALIS works. I will tell you how PHRF-NE works: It is a number of phrf groups who all set their own schedules and used to have one final handicapper who was on the US Sailing phrf board. Every year there is a spring and fall meeting that the PHRF governors go to and go over all the usually crap, numbers, participation, etc. It took myself and another governor about 6 years to finally allow you to be able to race without your cushions on board, because only the governors voted and we had this one guy who did not want to take his dinnerware off his boat. . I still feel that PHRF-NE is on top, based on how they rated their boats and today responded to a ratting infraction. They do need a new chief handicapper. Who ever would like to volunteer to be the chief and get crap all year please apply. (it will be like being commodore of a yacht club and members calling you and complaining that their meatloaf was not cooked right)

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thanks Mr. President

 

so when is the phrf committee gonna ding the J88's ? ;-)

maybe if you did some One-design racing you wouldn't be questioning other boats ratings

 

Bill,

You are right OD racing reveals a lot, especially when you compare it to the boats PHRF record.

Take for instance you guys, you finish 5 out of 7 OD in KW and you clean up when you sail PHRF. [Let me throw in 2 last places finishes at KW.}

That is a good indication the rating is incorrect.

 

Do you remember when the J105 rating got a slight adjustment a few years ago?

A lot of that was based on the fact 3 J105 were doing very well in PHRF W/L events in EBYRA, but were mid fleet or worse boats when they sailed OD.

Another good indication that the rating of the J105 at 105 was incorrect.

 

But you won't have to worry about the 88's rating getting dinged now that Iris is on the PHRF committee and Mark Ploch has a customer with a J88.

 

You whine more than most teenage girls and accomplish a lot less.

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Boat I raced on got hit 23 (I think) sec in one year's worth of data- YRALIS.

Corruption.

The boat you sailed on, I guess the owner was not part of the good old boys club.

Go figure

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Did I say one year of data? It was just the Around Long Island Race's worth of data

.

We must have gone by some guy named Bob with a Swan 44 MK II and he might have gotten upset.

 

I hope the system gets standardized and peeps like Iris see the bigger (National) picture.

 

Sail Safe

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Without saying which boat, so that people can actually look at the cert and the ratings history, the complaint is kind of meaningless.

 

Frankly I've always gotten the sense that the YRA handed out pretty soft ratings to new boats and the ratings histories tend to support that.

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Life sounds good for OD in Lower Alabama for the Nazi. If PHRF problems bother you why do you chime into the threads?

PHRF problems don't bother me, PHRF sailors who whine about ratings do. I've sailed phrf before ( don't tell anyone ) and have won and lost and never whined about the ratings. I know when I've sailed well and when I have sailed poorly. That is the only thing you can control. sometimes in sailing you get unlucky and lose or get lucky and win. The problem with the whiners is that they don't know the difference. They think they always sail great so if they lose it must be due to the unfair ratings. Just try to sail well, have fun and let the results fall where they may.

 

The other thing that bothers me is that these whiners never try to get on the phrf committee . Unless you've tried to become part of the solution, you are part of the problem. People that don't try to give back to the sport bother me.

 

Clear enough ?

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Come on Mambo, give me a break. If you want to sit in your viper and tell me I'm stupid for sailing phrf, or taking it that seriously, that's fine. But it's the kind of sailing that I do (and yes, I sail OD too) and it's getting less fun as I and others realize that the PHRF-NE board protects its own interests, has no interest in even pretending to follow their bylaws, and has stated on the record that we all just need to shut up about it.

 

Now to be fair, I think that overall for most stock boats the PHRF numbers aren't terrible and a 3 or 6 s/m adjustment up or down really doesn't matter much. Most of the issues come once they start to add in the adjustments. For instance, how do you convert a J35 to a carbon mast, a custom rudder, an asym on a retractable pole and actually get rated SLOWER than a stock 35? How does a J111 rate 42 in NE when it's 30 - 39 in every other area of the country? How does my boat rate even or 3s faster than a B36.7 in NE, but in YRA not only are the 36.7s rated significantly slower, but I'm rated 3s/m faster? In ECSA the 36.7 and I are the same as in NE - don't ECSA and YRA cover a lot of the same water? you probably don't know since you've got that smug OD thing going ;)

Enough already. If you want to sail phrf, fine. I think I speak for all OD sailors when I say that no OD sailor cares what you sail. What we hate is that you PHRFers continually bitch about your ratings. If you're unhappy with your rating, go do something about it. Hint : bitching on a sailing website doesn't qualify. Have you tried to get on your local PHRF committee ? Have you tried anything else other than whining ?

 

I understand that bitching about ratings is the biggest part of PHRF sailing. I have no problem with that. However, i think it should be limited to your local yacht club bar. That way you can get all drunked up and hopefully can get in a slap fight with your local phrf committee member or another phrf sailor whom you believe has a gift rating due to certain unnatural acts performed by said gift rating dude on local phrf committee member ( note double entendre ).

 

But please stop whining to the world, no one cares.

 

Hey Nazi, in case you didn't notice the title of the thread, it contains the words PHRF. Since you're so happy in your OD world, wtf are you doing here? I forgot how perfect OD sailing is, what with disguised carbon rudders, mis-placed delrins, corrector weights missing or in the wrong place, painting bottoms so you can fair them in... carrying enough "drinking" water to lengthen a waterline by a few inches, hidden lead in the sumps.... Yeah.. OD is totally where it's at but thank god nobody bitches on a sailing website about that shit.

 

Oh wait: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=90176

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=160240

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=82661

 

I particularly like this quote:

I'm stating the way the boat is sailed, you are stating the way the boat should be sailed. Your goody two shoes, candy ass would get owned in such a competitve fleet with the attitude of play by the rules. I am simply telling you if you want to win any big laser regatta, you have to use questionable kinetics. This is more so than anyother fleet. I have seen so many rule 42 violations at every event that I go to, that I can't count them at the end of the day. But, usually competitors look the other way and don't protest. This may or may not be an issue depending on how you look at it. You should get in the mind set of how to win.... then you would understand. This, however does not mean I am condoning cheating in anyway!

 

 

but whatever, man. of course you know best.

 

p.s. in case you weren't paying attention, this thread isn't really about bad ratings, it's about bad rating practices, closed boards and processes, and lack of transparency that passes for fairness. And thank you for the instructive method of how we should deal with it - your opinion matters!

 

so have you tried to get on the phrf committee to work on solving these issues ?

 

Also, I've never said od is perfect or anything like that. Competition can bring out the worst in some people ( sorry if that hits close to home ) and the best in others. I prefer od sailing but I don't worry about what other people do, I try to sail each race the best i can and then let the results happen.

 

Anyway, good luck with whining, you are sailing in the right fleet.

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Funny how quick this rating changed! LOL. I think it was just plain stupidity on the owners part, not malice. If you're going to game the system and carry two kites, why would you list them on your cert? Doesn't make sense.

 

I've seen this a few times with boats taking the recreational credit and then flying a kevlar genoa.

 

https://secure.headwaytechnology.com/www.phrfne.org/page/certificates/?phmode=viewcertificate&certid=PZVDVM-2017&cformat=pdf

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Nazi (nice screen name by the way),

you obviously don't know me, so you can keep your insinuations to yourself. If you *did* know me, you'd know how hard I work for my fellow sailors and the sport I love, and you'd even know why I started racing my own boat. If you're ever up in Boston, let me know - we'll get you out on a boat,, we'll have a beer, and talk like adults. Until then, I hope you have a great racing season.

 

Cheers,

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thanks Mr. President

 

so when is the phrf committee gonna ding the J88's ? ;-)

maybe if you did some One-design racing you wouldn't be questioning other boats ratings

 

Bill,

You are right OD racing reveals a lot, especially when you compare it to the boats PHRF record.

Take for instance you guys, you finish 5 out of 7 OD in KW and you clean up when you sail PHRF. [Let me throw in 2 last places finishes at KW.}

That is a good indication the rating is incorrect.

 

Do you remember when the J105 rating got a slight adjustment a few years ago?

A lot of that was based on the fact 3 J105 were doing very well in PHRF W/L events in EBYRA, but were mid fleet or worse boats when they sailed OD.

Another good indication that the rating of the J105 at 105 was incorrect.

 

But you won't have to worry about the 88's rating getting dinged now that Iris is on the PHRF committee and Mark Ploch has a customer with a J88.

 

You whine more than most teenage girls and accomplish a lot less.

 

Expo hase done morre foure thisse sporte then moste. He raized the bar on levelle of compitione, he wase actieve OD racere untille classe juste collsapsed aronde hime and wase abelle to macke the jumpe to PRHF whearre he continude hisse winneg wayes, considerded top sailore of WLIS an beyonde, he searved on PHRF Commiittee verrey welle, Hese teh freeking mayore of City Ilande!!! Plesae be respectefulle when you addresse you supeirores.

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Bill,

 

 

You are right OD racing reveals a lot, especially when you compare it to the boats PHRF record.

Take for instance you guys, you finish 5 out of 7 OD in KW and you clean up when you sail PHRF. [Let me throw in 2 last places finishes at KW.}

That is a good indication the rating is incorrect.

 

But you won't have to worry about the 88's rating getting dinged now that Iris is on the PHRF committee and Mark Ploch has a customer with a J88.

John, It's interesting how you analyzed our sailing ability by reading race results on a computer screen 1,400 miles away, similar to how you criticize the PHRF committee for not being on the race course or asking around to find out what happened. You of course realize that Deviation wasn't the only YRALIS J88 there ... You're satisfied to base our performance on 2 last place finishes out of a 10 race series. We sailed in over 90 races in 2016, so you're basing your assessment on 11% or our races? ... lets see Hustler did 11 races in 2016, in 11% of Hustler's races last year they finished mid-fleet ... ironically the one J88 they beat last year at American was 2nd at Key West.

 

The problem with Boat Owners being on the PHRF Committee is that they see things from one perspective; it is less likely that a boat owner will sail on multiple boats during the season. The people who we need on the committee should be sailing every weekend on different boats, they need to witness how different boat perform in different conditions and see when a boat makes stupid mistakes that cost it the regatta. I'm not sure how they think Iris can be on the PHRF Committee when they meet the same nights that we are racing?

 

The J88 went for it's 3-year rating review last night. I suspect more than performance will be considered in determining the rating.

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The people who we need on the committee should be sailing every weekend on different boats, they need to witness how different boat perform in different conditions and see when a boat makes stupid mistakes that cost it the regatta.

 

You meane licke sailmackeres?

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Like this: http://yra.org/northern-california-phrf/the-ncphrf-committee/

 

Four sailmakers: North, Doyle, Hood and Pineapple

One naval architect

One marine engineer

One world reknowned navigator who races high end boats all over and around the world, ( and a personal Cal 40 locally)

One 86 yr old Merit 25 owner who sails competitively in beer cans on the Estuary.

 

A diverse group to say the least.

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thanks Mr. President

 

so when is the phrf committee gonna ding the J88's ? ;-)

maybe if you did some One-design racing you wouldn't be questioning other boats ratings

 

Bill,

You are right OD racing reveals a lot, especially when you compare it to the boats PHRF record.

Take for instance you guys, you finish 5 out of 7 OD in KW and you clean up when you sail PHRF. [Let me throw in 2 last places finishes at KW.}

That is a good indication the rating is incorrect.

 

Do you remember when the J105 rating got a slight adjustment a few years ago?

A lot of that was based on the fact 3 J105 were doing very well in PHRF W/L events in EBYRA, but were mid fleet or worse boats when they sailed OD.

Another good indication that the rating of the J105 at 105 was incorrect.

 

But you won't have to worry about the 88's rating getting dinged now that Iris is on the PHRF committee and Mark Ploch has a customer with a J88.

 

You whine more than most teenage girls and accomplish a lot less.

 

Expo hase done morre foure thisse sporte then moste. He raized the bar on levelle of compitione, he wase actieve OD racere untille classe juste collsapsed aronde hime and wase abelle to macke the jumpe to PRHF whearre he continude hisse winneg wayes, considerded top sailore of WLIS an beyonde, he searved on PHRF Commiittee verrey welle, Hese teh freeking mayore of City Ilande!!! Plesae be respectefulle when you addresse you supeirores.

 

He is a superior whiner is about all. His sailing and support of the sport is about on par with your spelling. If he wanted to help he would have left like he kept saying he was going to do. Are you his BFF?

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thanks Mr. President

 

so when is the phrf committee gonna ding the J88's ? ;-)

maybe if you did some One-design racing you wouldn't be questioning other boats ratings

 

Bill,

You are right OD racing reveals a lot, especially when you compare it to the boats PHRF record.

Take for instance you guys, you finish 5 out of 7 OD in KW and you clean up when you sail PHRF. [Let me throw in 2 last places finishes at KW.}

That is a good indication the rating is incorrect.

 

Do you remember when the J105 rating got a slight adjustment a few years ago?

A lot of that was based on the fact 3 J105 were doing very well in PHRF W/L events in EBYRA, but were mid fleet or worse boats when they sailed OD.

Another good indication that the rating of the J105 at 105 was incorrect.

 

But you won't have to worry about the 88's rating getting dinged now that Iris is on the PHRF committee and Mark Ploch has a customer with a J88.

 

You whine more than most teenage girls and accomplish a lot less.

 

Expo hase done morre foure thisse sporte then moste. He raized the bar on levelle of compitione, he wase actieve OD racere untille classe juste collsapsed aronde hime and wase abelle to macke the jumpe to PRHF whearre he continude hisse winneg wayes, considerded top sailore of WLIS an beyonde, he searved on PHRF Commiittee verrey welle, Hese teh freeking mayore of City Ilande!!! Plesae be respectefulle when you addresse you supeirores.

 

He is a superior whiner is about all. His sailing and support of the sport is about on par with your spelling. If he wanted to help he would have left like he kept saying he was going to do. Are you his BFF?

 

hese actieve and inviolved and mabey gette alittelle to vocalle somtimes, butte thast expo. :)

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The people who we need on the committee should be sailing every weekend on different boats, they need to witness how different boat perform in different conditions and see when a boat makes stupid mistakes that cost it the regatta.

You meane licke sailmackeres?

 

Yes, like "sailmackeres" and post college age sailors, maybe 30-45 years old, who are able to sail every weekend and travel outside of their own area. 50-70 yr old sailmakers, yacht designers, and engineers aren't necessarily connected to social media and know whats going on on the other boats. If you're not on the water racing, you're only getting second hand information.

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thanks Mr. President

 

so when is the phrf committee gonna ding the J88's ? ;-)

maybe if you did some One-design racing you wouldn't be questioning other boats ratings

 

Bill,

You are right OD racing reveals a lot, especially when you compare it to the boats PHRF record.

Take for instance you guys, you finish 5 out of 7 OD in KW and you clean up when you sail PHRF. [Let me throw in 2 last places finishes at KW.}

That is a good indication the rating is incorrect.

 

Do you remember when the J105 rating got a slight adjustment a few years ago?

A lot of that was based on the fact 3 J105 were doing very well in PHRF W/L events in EBYRA, but were mid fleet or worse boats when they sailed OD.

Another good indication that the rating of the J105 at 105 was incorrect.

 

But you won't have to worry about the 88's rating getting dinged now that Iris is on the PHRF committee and Mark Ploch has a customer with a J88.

 

You whine more than most teenage girls and accomplish a lot less.

 

Expo hase done morre foure thisse sporte then moste. He raized the bar on levelle of compitione, he wase actieve OD racere untille classe juste collsapsed aronde hime and wase abelle to macke the jumpe to PRHF whearre he continude hisse winneg wayes, considerded top sailore of WLIS an beyonde, he searved on PHRF Commiittee verrey welle, Hese teh freeking mayore of City Ilande!!! Plesae be respectefulle when you addresse you supeirores.

 

He is a superior whiner is about all. His sailing and support of the sport is about on par with your spelling. If he wanted to help he would have left like he kept saying he was going to do. Are you his BFF?

 

hese actieve and inviolved and mabey gette alittelle to vocalle somtimes, butte thast expo. :)

 

You mean he is like the chimps in the zoo throwing poo at each other?

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who says SA doesn't influence sailing?

Let's see if they fix this one too

 

https://secure.headwaytechnology.com/www.phrfne.org/page/certificates/?phmode=viewcertificate&certid=QCTBCC-2016&cformat=pdf

 

No adjustment for carbon rudder?

 

Kite is 2.15j or 35% over standard 1.8j so should incur a -12 adjustment but apparently it's close enough to 30% that -9 is enough.

 

But they only follow the guidelines when it's not one of their good ole' boys.

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Bill,

 

 

You are right OD racing reveals a lot, especially when you compare it to the boats PHRF record.

Take for instance you guys, you finish 5 out of 7 OD in KW and you clean up when you sail PHRF. [Let me throw in 2 last places finishes at KW.}

That is a good indication the rating is incorrect.

 

But you won't have to worry about the 88's rating getting dinged now that Iris is on the PHRF committee and Mark Ploch has a customer with a J88.

John, It's interesting how you analyzed our sailing ability by reading race results on a computer screen 1,400 miles away, similar to how you criticize the PHRF committee for not being on the race course or asking around to find out what happened. You of course realize that Deviation wasn't the only YRALIS J88 there ... You're satisfied to base our performance on 2 last place finishes out of a 10 race series. We sailed in over 90 races in 2016, so you're basing your assessment on 11% or our races? ... lets see Hustler did 11 races in 2016, in 11% of Hustler's races last year they finished mid-fleet ... ironically the one J88 they beat last year at American was 2nd at Key West.

 

The problem with Boat Owners being on the PHRF Committee is that they see things from one perspective; it is less likely that a boat owner will sail on multiple boats during the season. The people who we need on the committee should be sailing every weekend on different boats, they need to witness how different boat perform in different conditions and see when a boat makes stupid mistakes that cost it the regatta. I'm not sure how they think Iris can be on the PHRF Committee when they meet the same nights that we are racing?

 

The J88 went for it's 3-year rating review last night. I suspect more than performance will be considered in determining the rating.

 

5th out of 7 is 5th out of 7 weather I was in KW to witness it or 1400 miles away. ;)

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thanks Mr. President

 

so when is the phrf committee gonna ding the J88's ? ;-)

maybe if you did some One-design racing you wouldn't be questioning other boats ratings

 

Bill,

You are right OD racing reveals a lot, especially when you compare it to the boats PHRF record.

Take for instance you guys, you finish 5 out of 7 OD in KW and you clean up when you sail PHRF. [Let me throw in 2 last places finishes at KW.}

That is a good indication the rating is incorrect.

 

Do you remember when the J105 rating got a slight adjustment a few years ago?

A lot of that was based on the fact 3 J105 were doing very well in PHRF W/L events in EBYRA, but were mid fleet or worse boats when they sailed OD.

Another good indication that the rating of the J105 at 105 was incorrect.

 

But you won't have to worry about the 88's rating getting dinged now that Iris is on the PHRF committee and Mark Ploch has a customer with a J88.

 

You whine more than most teenage girls and accomplish a lot less.

 

Expo hase done morre foure thisse sporte then moste. He raized the bar on levelle of compitione, he wase actieve OD racere untille classe juste collsapsed aronde hime and wase abelle to macke the jumpe to PRHF whearre he continude hisse winneg wayes, considerded top sailore of WLIS an beyonde, he searved on PHRF Commiittee verrey welle, Hese teh freeking mayore of City Ilande!!! Plesae be respectefulle when you addresse you supeirores.

 

He is a superior whiner is about all. His sailing and support of the sport is about on par with your spelling. If he wanted to help he would have left like he kept saying he was going to do. Are you his BFF?

 

hese actieve and inviolved and mabey gette alittelle to vocalle somtimes, butte thast expo. :)

 

You mean he is like the chimps in the zoo throwing poo at each other?

 

Or your mother :o

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Will all these tears increase salinity of lis thus rendering all ratings moot?

 

 

If you touch Espo, and no one sees you do it, have you actually touched a Dick?

 

All this and more, tonight at 11...

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Will all these tears increase salinity of lis thus rendering all ratings moot?

 

 

If you touch Espo, and no one sees you do it, have you actually touched a Dick?

 

All this and more, tonight at 11...

Yes but grandma says its only a very little one.

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Seems the sockpuppet has his knickers all in a knot.

How could we possibly rate boats fairly without social media?

Hmm, maybe I need to rephrase that ... I don’t mean we can’t rate boats fairly without social media, what I wanted to convey was that the younger generation is getting better information quicker from multiple sources faster than the rest of us are accustom to.

 

For example, between and after the races the cell phones come out. Before we even reach the dock they’ve got race results, they’ve got pictures of a boat shrimping their kite, they know who blew up their primary winch, they’ve watched a video of a major cluster fuck at the start, and who banged the corner and and got lucky at the finish. Essentially, they've got a pretty good mental picture of who sailed well, and who just sailed around the race course.

 

Me? I’m not really that well connected. I might talk to a few people on the dock and a few more at the post race party, mostly I only care about the boats in my class. Maybe I’ll see some video or see some photos online later, maybe something particularly insightful will be posted on Sailing Anarchy.

 

Then there’s that guy that sits in from of his computer and looks at results four months after the regatta, and he thinks that, tells the whole story. He doesn’t find out shit about what really happened at the regatta, he just says “5 out of 7, you guys suck.

 

Maybe the question shouldn’t be “How could we possibly rate boats fairly without social media?” but rather, “How can we possibly rate boats fairly without using all the available sources of information?”

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who says SA doesn't influence sailing?

Let's see if they fix this one too

 

https://secure.headwaytechnology.com/www.phrfne.org/page/certificates/?phmode=viewcertificate&certid=QCTBCC-2016&cformat=pdf

 

No adjustment for carbon rudder?

 

Kite is 2.15j or 35% over standard 1.8j so should incur a -12 adjustment but apparently it's close enough to 30% that -9 is enough.

 

But they only follow the guidelines when it's not one of their good ole' boys.

 

Who ever it is, and I know who it is. Is not even reading the certificate and then making it valid for phrf-ne. The local handicapper in his area should know this. He submitted the certificate while not hiding anything. its the same for the one that was just corrected,

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who says SA doesn't influence sailing?

Let's see if they fix this one too

 

https://secure.headwaytechnology.com/www.phrfne.org/page/certificates/?phmode=viewcertificate&certid=QCTBCC-2016&cformat=pdf

 

No adjustment for carbon rudder?

 

Kite is 2.15j or 35% over standard 1.8j so should incur a -12 adjustment but apparently it's close enough to 30% that -9 is enough.

 

But they only follow the guidelines when it's not one of their good ole' boys.

 

Who ever it is, and I know who it is. Is not even reading the certificate and then making it valid for phrf-ne. The local handicapper in his area should know this. He submitted the certificate while not hiding anything. its the same for the one that was just corrected,

 

Mast Material key point, start from there.

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Q: If these "flaws" are so obvious, why is it that ratings are not being challenged in The Room at events.

Protest!

The procedure is simple.

Isn't this a part of Sailing being a self-policing sport?

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Q: If these "flaws" are so obvious, why is it that ratings are not being challenged in The Room at events.

Protest!

The procedure is simple.

Isn't this a part of Sailing being a self-policing sport?

Can't. Ran away and went bicycling instead. That and internet whining.

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Seems the sockpuppet has his knickers all in a knot.

How could we possibly rate boats fairly without social media?

Hmm, maybe I need to rephrase that ... I don’t mean we can’t rate boats fairly without social media, what I wanted to convey was that the younger generation is getting better information quicker from multiple sources faster than the rest of us are accustom to.

 

For example, between and after the races the cell phones come out. Before we even reach the dock they’ve got race results, they’ve got pictures of a boat shrimping their kite, they know who blew up their primary winch, they’ve watched a video of a major cluster fuck at the start, and who banged the corner and and got lucky at the finish. Essentially, they've got a pretty good mental picture of who sailed well, and who just sailed around the race course.

 

Me? I’m not really that well connected. I might talk to a few people on the dock and a few more at the post race party, mostly I only care about the boats in my class. Maybe I’ll see some video or see some photos online later, maybe something particularly insightful will be posted on Sailing Anarchy.

 

Then there’s that guy that sits in from of his computer and looks at results four months after the regatta, and he thinks that, tells the whole story. He doesn’t find out shit about what really happened at the regatta, he just says “5 out of 7, you guys suck.

 

Maybe the question shouldn’t be “How could we possibly rate boats fairly without social media?” but rather, “How can we possibly rate boats fairly without using all the available sources of information?”

 

 

Allow me if you will to comment on that. For starters lets agree to put Rexposito to the side as there is an overwhelming amount of hyperbole he expresses.

While I don't think the observed performance of a boat is has no value at the same time it can well be given too much weight. So your younger people with instant access to results or a good old fashioned clusterfuk picture making the rounds I would submit that like most things inspired by social media it becomes a bigger deal than it is in reality. A viral video of bumper boats and a skipper and crew having a momentary lapse does not a sailing career make.

The way PHRF was constituted was that results are what is important and should carry the majority of weight. The reason for this is best explained by an old football quote from Bill Parcells. "You are what your record says you are". When PHRF was first introduced I doubt anyone sat there and thought that 3 1/2 decades later that on water video and Yacht Scoring is going to right all wrongs.

Lastly using Rexposito as an example. Within the context of PHRF boats are to be rated based on the results of a given design. IIRC J29 rates111 or 114. The record of Hustler would strongly suggest that 106-109 may well be more appropriate. Remove Hustler and the argument might be made that 114-117 might be closer to the truth. If you went solely on Hustler's results I would be will to bet that a number of J29 would just stop sailing PHRF.

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A thought just crossed my mind. Why do we need raters anyhow? Why not just ask Luis Kahl to add a line to Yacht Scoring that calculates and publishes Rating Needed To Win. Then when you click on a boat's history an aggregate rating would be displayed for current season and over the years it has competed. From there collect and average out on a spreadsheet the ratings of every class or design. You have instant rating database based purely on empirical data. No more guess work.

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Bill, that would work if you wanted to institute a golf handicap system or mudheads style system. Otherwise you would need to aggregate those results across boats of the same design and configuration.

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Maybe, or maybe not. The premise is that all things being equal, the average or mean would prevail. PHRF by definition is a system of ratings based on performance. It is not theoretical performance as in a measurement rule. Instead it is actual performance based on finish position. In practice the more data points the more accurate it rates the boats. You completely remove anyone making a judgement call on how any given boat or design is being sailed. So in that sense you are correct that it is rating the sailors. However statistically speaking the weaker is offset by the stronger. If every design or class has both weak and strong sailors then it all averages out. If a particular class is made up of a bunch of hacks or a bunch of rockstars then you would be correct. I should think that would be the exception not the norm. Agree that it would be a bit more complicated if you have a one off or very small sampling size but for the vast majority it would nail the rating with a high degree of accuracy.

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Ya wonder what in the hell the phrf rating committees look at sometimes. A couple seasons back, there was an arcona 430 rated 72. The main dimensions, length, beam, draft, sail area, basic configuration keelboat are virtually identical to a J44. Yet the geniuses on LIS rated them roughly 40 secs a mile different. Are they brain dead? Are they just totally ignorant of the main dimensions that make a boat go fast or slow? Or is something else going on?

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A thought just crossed my mind. Why do we need raters anyhow? Why not just ask Luis Kahl to add a line to Yacht Scoring that calculates and publishes Rating Needed To Win. Then when you click on a boat's history an aggregate rating would be displayed for current season and over the years it has competed. From there collect and average out on a spreadsheet the ratings of every class or design. You have instant rating database based purely on empirical data. No more guess work.

 

This is something that Sailwave Scoring has built in. I really like Sailwave.

Typically the only boat that sails to it's rating is the winner. When Publishing results that are many fields you can add in the print out or uploaded html file.

They call 2 of them:

BCR (Back Corrected Rating) or what you actually sailed your boat to.

BCE (Back Corrected Elasped Time) or how far out of First you finished.

 

It is pretty embarrassing to see what you sailed to even when you are in second place.

 

What I like about Yacht Scoring is researching a boats rating. You can look up the history of a boat and see how it did and what its rating was. I have been doing this for a friend who bought a boat and brought it out here. Good tool that all PHRF should have, A real Database of races.

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Reposted from the other PHRF whining thread

 

---

 

The thing that bugs me the most about PHRF is people bitching and whining about their rating and how it's "too punitive" when they're ignoring the #1 tenant of PHRF: that you're sailing its boat to its potential. I'll illustrate this in a few vignettes.

Crew Work: One blown tack on a beat can equate to 3 seconds of difference, no question. A slow drop or poor trimming around a bottom mark can mean another 6 seconds. The trimmer letting the kite collapse in the gybe is another couple seconds. These don't result in the boat just stopping for all that time, but examine the counterfactual of a boat that was able to accelerate quicker out of a tack, carve a better line around the gate, or keep their kite full through the gybe and maybe escape a wind shadow because of it and you'll see that boat winds up much further ahead and this has nothing to do with boat performance, rating, or the handicap board.

Mast Setup: This is where PHRF racers can lean a lot from OD sailors. Show up to any small keelboat or dinghy OD event and look at what those sailors are doing with their boat. They're adjusting their shrouds, mast butt, and forestay in between every race - or they've developed ways to change the rig shape during the race with aggressive fracalating or similar tricks. Those sailors live by their tuning guides and are constantly refining them for every wind and wave condition. Now back to PHRF. We all know a boat that puts their boat in the water in May and puts the rig in and tunes it to the 8-12 knot "base" that their sailmaker gave them 5 years ago then leaves it there. From there, they don't add turns when it gets windy and they don't take them off when it's super light. A bad tack or old sails pales in "badness" comparison to sailing a beat in 20 knots with your rig tuned for 12.

Weight: Not crew weight - (sidebar: crew weight shouldn't be given a credit or limit as it's hurting participation). But I mean "stuff." And not just how much "stuff" but where that stuff is. I can't tell you how many people in my local fleet sail around with sails in the bow, anchors in the cockpit lazarettes, a full library of piloting books above the port settee, a mechanics grade tool kit under the starboard quarterberth, and a full duffelbag for every crew member sliding around on the cockpit sole between every tack. Not only does this weight contribute to overall "slowness" by hurting your acceleration and top end speed, but it also causes the boat to pitch and roll much more violently. With every wave, every move of the helm, the weight of the equipment and gear in the ends of the boat experiences a gravity of its own and that gravity is fighting the gravity of the boat as it's trying to stabilize itself. A boat traveling straight and level is a boat going faster.

Tactics: Too many people equate this with "how well can you muscle in at a start and fuck the people around you" or "how you can get away with skirting the rules at mark roundings." This couldn't be farther from the truth. I've sailed with and against enough former Olympians to know that there are people out there who just read the course better. They can pick a side of the course well, spot puffs well, and call the favored end of a start line to within a degree. These are skills that should be studied and refined over time, and are the most valuable aspect of the pre-race period.

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This diatribe is not meant to serve as a browbeating for every PHRF racer out there. Bob and Jane shouldn't feel the need to fuck with their forestay to and from the racecourse on Wednesday night. To the same end, Bob and Jane should recognize that the boat winning every week because they sail the boat well, leave their duffel bags on the dock, and put the time in for practice and preparation is winning because they're sailing to what the rating rule assumes, not because the rating on Bob and Jane's Islander 41 is wrong.

Furthermore, with practice, crew debriefs, and hard work, everything I've mentioned above can improve the performance of any PHRF boat without costing the owner a cent. And if I were on a PHRF board, I would take the "evidence" an owner brings me that his rating is wrong (mostly race results, and maybe boat specs) and put it on the table before asking to see his tuning guide for various windspeeds. 90% of the time this will illicit a blank response or stammering. My followup will be that if he comes back in a year after adjusting his rig for changing conditions and is still having performance problems we can talk about his rating.

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Q: If these "flaws" are so obvious, why is it that ratings are not being challenged in The Room at events.

Protest!

The procedure is simple.

Isn't this a part of Sailing being a self-policing sport?

I have challenged rating many times and due to personality conflicts with most on the committee nothing happens, hence the corruption.

The problem with it being self policing is nobody wants to be the bad guy and doesn't want someone from there club or someone they sail against all the time to be mad at them.

There is an issue at Stamford YC with a Swan 44 getting 9 sec per mile now, but nobody wants to press the issue because they are all friends.

Me on the other hand don't give a shit, I'm not out there to make friends, but to win races. I have enough friends.

Going to the committee with certain beliefs has cost me a long time friendship and a long time crew member.

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Seems the sockpuppet has his knickers all in a knot.

How could we possibly rate boats fairly without social media?

Hmm, maybe I need to rephrase that ... I don’t mean we can’t rate boats fairly without social media, what I wanted to convey was that the younger generation is getting better information quicker from multiple sources faster than the rest of us are accustom to.

 

For example, between and after the races the cell phones come out. Before we even reach the dock they’ve got race results, they’ve got pictures of a boat shrimping their kite, they know who blew up their primary winch, they’ve watched a video of a major cluster fuck at the start, and who banged the corner and and got lucky at the finish. Essentially, they've got a pretty good mental picture of who sailed well, and who just sailed around the race course.

 

Me? I’m not really that well connected. I might talk to a few people on the dock and a few more at the post race party, mostly I only care about the boats in my class. Maybe I’ll see some video or see some photos online later, maybe something particularly insightful will be posted on Sailing Anarchy.

 

Then there’s that guy that sits in from of his computer and looks at results four months after the regatta, and he thinks that, tells the whole story. He doesn’t find out shit about what really happened at the regatta, he just says “5 out of 7, you guys suck.

 

Maybe the question shouldn’t be “How could we possibly rate boats fairly without social media?” but rather, “How can we possibly rate boats fairly without using all the available sources of information?”

 

Never said you guys suck. You know I think you are good sailors

But when you finish 5 out of 7 in OD and win in PHRF the rating may need adjustment.

The J24 rating was derived by Kenny Read sailing it, not the wing nuts in who sail in Eastchester Bay.

All I'm saying is if the boat that dominated in KW sailed on LIS with it's present rating they would never lose.

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A thought just crossed my mind. Why do we need raters anyhow? Why not just ask Luis Kahl to add a line to Yacht Scoring that calculates and publishes Rating Needed To Win. Then when you click on a boat's history an aggregate rating would be displayed for current season and over the years it has competed. From there collect and average out on a spreadsheet the ratings of every class or design. You have instant rating database based purely on empirical data. No more guess work.

 

This is something that Sailwave Scoring has built in. I really like Sailwave.

Typically the only boat that sails to it's rating is the winner. When Publishing results that are many fields you can add in the print out or uploaded html file.

They call 2 of them:

BCR (Back Corrected Rating) or what you actually sailed your boat to.

BCE (Back Corrected Elasped Time) or how far out of First you finished.

 

It is pretty embarrassing to see what you sailed to even when you are in second place.

 

What I like about Yacht Scoring is researching a boats rating. You can look up the history of a boat and see how it did and what its rating was. I have been doing this for a friend who bought a boat and brought it out here. Good tool that all PHRF should have, A real Database of races.

 

I was playing with this and reverse-engineered the formulas to do this for ToT PHRF, and it seems like a great idea. However, it would still take quite a bit of analysis to determine if a boat's rating is "fair." I'm going to see if we can get this implemented in regattaman.

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Fair would be fitting the boats rating(s) to its maximum, not median nor mean for any condition set, and the winner is the crew who comes closest to achieving the potential.

 

Deciding how many aspects of "standard" condition (wind speed, wind angles, sea state....) at how many levels and locations of each gets to be a trade off that people will piss about, as the binning of wind speeds or assigning course factors based on headings, winds, currents and waves will descend into chaos of complexity, for more than short course buoy races with one official wind instrument as in Americas cup.

 

If the faster boats make it to the turn of the tide, or finish before the sea breeze dies, and the slower boats can't, is that fair?

If they sit in near calm, with the clock running, and the slower boats are accumulating correction when nobody is moving is that ?

 

A lot of value to simple numbers and you buy a boat, rig and sails that suits local conditions. The 180% LP genoas that Lioness used on LIS are just silly on SFBay.

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^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^

Why would anybody want the truth and the facts

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A thought just crossed my mind. Why do we need raters anyhow? Why not just ask Luis Kahl to add a line to Yacht Scoring that calculates and publishes Rating Needed To Win. Then when you click on a boat's history an aggregate rating would be displayed for current season and over the years it has competed. From there collect and average out on a spreadsheet the ratings of every class or design. You have instant rating database based purely on empirical data. No more guess work.

 

This is something that Sailwave Scoring has built in. I really like Sailwave.

Typically the only boat that sails to it's rating is the winner. When Publishing results that are many fields you can add in the print out or uploaded html file.

They call 2 of them:

BCR (Back Corrected Rating) or what you actually sailed your boat to.

BCE (Back Corrected Elasped Time) or how far out of First you finished.

 

It is pretty embarrassing to see what you sailed to even when you are in second place.

 

What I like about Yacht Scoring is researching a boats rating. You can look up the history of a boat and see how it did and what its rating was. I have been doing this for a friend who bought a boat and brought it out here. Good tool that all PHRF should have, A real Database of races.

 

I know you were trying to be concise here, but what would be atypical situations in which the boat that wins did not sail to its rating? I guess what I'm trying to get to is if a boat sails to a rating in an area and wins all the time, is there value to calculating BCR and BCE based on the second place boat to start to determine what the first place boat's rating *should* be? Or is there still just not enough information to be able to start making those kinds of determinations?

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If a boat sails to its rating and competition did not then it should win. If it sails above its rating consistently then you need adjustments

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If a boat sails to its rating and competition did not then it should win. If it sails above its rating consistently then you need adjustments

Phrf # is an arbitrary assignment. The only meaning it has is relative to other boats. Sailing at, above, or below the rating in and of itself has no meaning unless compared to other boats' results. It's not like it is related to a seconds per mile vpp. So the interpretation becomes subjective, and thus political.

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If a boat sails to its rating and competition did not then it should win. If it sails above its rating consistently then you need adjustments

bgytr has it right - it's the deltas that matter, not the single number. That's why we're competitive with 36.7s in our fleet - we rate 72 and they rate 75 - 78. It remains to be seen if we'll be competitive with 36.7s in YRA, since there we rate 69 and they rate 84 or something.

 

So to your point, there's no way to state by just looking at BCE and BCR whether the winner is "sailing to its rating and everyone else isn't." The idea of a BCE and BCR is useful, but only so far:

 

What if the winner rates 84 and never (or seldom) loses with that number, despite a number of other boats having clean bottoms, new sails, a competent crew, and good tactics? What if the winner with that number doesn't have new sails and the crew changes every week? What if a boat owner moves from something like an S2 7.9 to a Farr 30 with Asymmetrical chutes - would you expect that boat to win consistently in its first season, using the same S2 crew?

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A thought just crossed my mind. Why do we need raters anyhow? Why not just ask Luis Kahl to add a line to Yacht Scoring that calculates and publishes Rating Needed To Win. Then when you click on a boat's history an aggregate rating would be displayed for current season and over the years it has competed. From there collect and average out on a spreadsheet the ratings of every class or design. You have instant rating database based purely on empirical data. No more guess work.

 

This is something that Sailwave Scoring has built in. I really like Sailwave.

Typically the only boat that sails to it's rating is the winner. When Publishing results that are many fields you can add in the print out or uploaded html file.

They call 2 of them:

BCR (Back Corrected Rating) or what you actually sailed your boat to.

BCE (Back Corrected Elasped Time) or how far out of First you finished.

 

It is pretty embarrassing to see what you sailed to even when you are in second place.

 

What I like about Yacht Scoring is researching a boats rating. You can look up the history of a boat and see how it did and what its rating was. I have been doing this for a friend who bought a boat and brought it out here. Good tool that all PHRF should have, A real Database of races.

 

I know you were trying to be concise here, but what would be atypical situations in which the boat that wins did not sail to its rating? I guess what I'm trying to get to is if a boat sails to a rating in an area and wins all the time, is there value to calculating BCR and BCE based on the second place boat to start to determine what the first place boat's rating *should* be? Or is there still just not enough information to be able to start making those kinds of determinations?

 

 

I should have used the word Theoretically, because there is no typical.

 

And I was just giving an example of what the scoring program does and the tools it has to give information to sailors.

 

We have 2 J 35 in our area. One we can beat the other we almost never beat. Same design and rating. You make the call.

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If a boat sails to its rating and competition did not then it should win. If it sails above its rating consistently then you need adjustments

Phrf # is an arbitrary assignment. The only meaning it has is relative to other boats. Sailing at, above, or below the rating in and of itself has no meaning unless compared to other boats' results. It's not like it is related to a seconds per mile vpp. So the interpretation becomes subjective, and thus political.

 

Interpretation need not be subjective. if Boat class "A" should be 20 sec a mile faster by rating, than class "B" you can calculate the differences across sufficient races to find out what the mean, median etc of the actuals are and normalize. For only two classes, you don't know if one is too high or the other is too low. With many classes, you can find the outliers.

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If a boat sails to its rating and competition did not then it should win. If it sails above its rating consistently then you need adjustments

 

Phrf # is an arbitrary assignment. The only meaning it has is relative to other boats. Sailing at, above, or below the rating in and of itself has no meaning unless compared to other boats' results. It's not like it is related to a seconds per mile vpp. So the interpretation becomes subjective, and thus political.

Interpretation need not be subjective. if Boat class "A" should be 20 sec a mile faster by rating, than class "B" you can calculate the differences across sufficient races to find out what the mean, median etc of the actuals are and normalize. For only two classes, you don't know if one is too high or the other is too low. With many classes, you can find the outliers.

Ya you could do a stats analysis and determine such. But it hasn't been done to my knowledge. And the input variables for proper stats would make it a quite complex, albeit not impossible,problem.

 

Wind strength/shiftiness, sea state, course length (to a lesser degree, some boats grt up to speed after maneuvers much quicker than others ) and the preparedness of the boat (crew, sails, bottom, fairing) all feed into the problem.

 

A decent statistical approach would likely end up being more complex than vpp based rules already out there, and likely way more inaccurate until many years worth of data had been processed.

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PHRF was supposed to be about keeping it simple.

Yes there could be a lot of factors, or not. While I understand the argument that there is a host of variables like boat prep, wardrobe and crew talent, do not the outliers cancel out one another? What I am saying is it just doesn't matter for the vast majority of boats. So long as you have multiple boats of the same design the number you extrapolate relative to another group of boats of the same design would accurately represent the performance difference. That is what PHRF was intended to be. Once you start trying to qualify the data, that is where the trouble starts and as Esposito says, where the corruption begins.

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PHRF was supposed to be about keeping it simple.

Yes there could be a lot of factors, or not. While I understand the argument that there is a host of variables like boat prep, wardrobe and crew talent, do not the outliers cancel out one another? What I am saying is it just doesn't matter for the vast majority of boats. So long as you have multiple boats of the same design the number you extrapolate relative to another group of boats of the same design would accurately represent the performance difference. That is what PHRF was intended to be. Once you start trying to qualify the data, that is where the trouble starts and as Esposito says, where the corruption begins.

 

Now you're quoting Espo???? Oh God.

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