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YRALIS PHRF minutes

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This is our ToT formula:

 

LCYC has reviewed our implementation of the PHRF time-on-time formula this year after questions were raised by competitors. The PHRF time-on-time formula allows for localization via two “indexes”, set for each of three wind/course conditions: light wind or sailing mostly downwind, heavy wind or sailing mostly to windward, or someplace in the middle.

US Sailing suggests certain values for the “B” index. (The larger the B index, the less attention is paid to phrf differences).

US Sailing suggests:

600 Light

550 Medium

480 Strong

 

At LCYC we use the "average windspeed for the duration of the race" as the sole factor to decide which bracket we use for each race. Our brackets are: <10, 10-15, >15.

Years past we have used the following B index values:

 

650, 550, 480.

This year, after review, we intend to adopt the US Sailing recommended values:

 

600, 550, 480.

The formula also allows setting an “A” index. This value does not affect the finish order on corrected time. It merely “centers” the correction factor on the boats in the middle of the fleet. So faster boats have corrected time greater than elapsed time, and slower boats have corrected time less than elapsed time. For this to be true one needs to set the “A” index to the “B” index value + the middle of the fleet PHRF. For LCYC that is a PHRF of 120, so for A index values we intend to use 720, 670, 600.

LCYC intends to use:

 

Avg Wind: <10 10-15 >15


A Index: 720 670 600
B Index: 600 550 480

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Sailing on a lake ... PHRF is a lot more accurate.  Problem with sailing on the Hudson we have a current at times 1 kt.+.  For you ToD experts that makes the course sailed over the water longer then between the buoys.  Before you say, well the current helps you when it is at you back.  Yes it does, but you sail more TIME against the current and less with the current at you back, so it doesn't average out.  

 

No system can compensate for currents over .3 kts.   Other then tight grouping of PHRF #'S.  

But I got tired of sailing my San Juan 21 against Catalina 30 TMBS.  I now have a Capri 22.

 

Look at the PHRF spreads for HRYRA.org  http://www.hryra.org/phrf-racing/race-results/   And look at the Non-spinnaker fleet PHRF spreads.  Crazy.

All the smaller, slower boats are doing is donating to the big boat trophy fund.

 

Hershey

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Hershey said:

Sailing on a lake ... PHRF is a lot more accurate.  Problem with sailing on the Hudson we have a current at times 1 kt.+.  For you ToD experts that makes the course sailed over the water longer then between the buoys.  Before you say, well the current helps you when it is at you back.  Yes it does, but you sail more TIME against the current and less with the current at you back, so it doesn't average out.  

 

No system can compensate for currents over .3 kts.   Other then tight grouping of PHRF #'S.  

But I got tired of sailing my San Juan 21 against Catalina 30 TMBS.  I now have a Capri 22.

 

Look at the PHRF spreads for HRYRA.org  http://www.hryra.org/phrf-racing/race-results/   And look at the Non-spinnaker fleet PHRF spreads.  Crazy.

All the smaller, slower boats are doing is donating to the big boat trophy fund.

 

Hershey

 

 

 

You have no idea about current effect until you sail in Eastern CT behind Fishers Is, it makes the Hudson's current like a lake  

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26 minutes ago, jesposito said:

You have no idea about current effect until you sail in Eastern CT behind Fishers Is, it makes the Hudson's current like a lake  

Totally true, 4-5 knots of current & rock dodging.... makes for some interesting races!

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36 minutes ago, Hershey said:

Sailing on a lake ... PHRF is a lot more accurate.  Problem with sailing on the Hudson we have a current at times 1 kt.+.  For you ToD experts that makes the course sailed over the water longer then between the buoys.  Before you say, well the current helps you when it is at you back.  Yes it does, but you sail more TIME against the current and less with the current at you back, so it doesn't average out.  

 

No system can compensate for currents over .3 kts.   Other then tight grouping of PHRF #'S.  

But I got tired of sailing my San Juan 21 against Catalina 30 TMBS.  I now have a Capri 22.

 

Look at the PHRF spreads for HRYRA.org  http://www.hryra.org/phrf-racing/race-results/   And look at the Non-spinnaker fleet PHRF spreads.  Crazy.

All the smaller, slower boats are doing is donating to the big boat trophy fund.

 

Hershey

 

 

 

mm, as far as I can see...you did say you sail a capri 22 so I don;t understand your whiny complaint??  You sailed in 1 regatta, not 6 .....you sailed against 3 other boats...phrf of 213,243,183 and you at 222.  Not a terribly huge spread.  As I look at the results from all six regattas,  I do see a lot of boats with a large spread of handicaps but perhaps if they sailed in more than just 1 or 2 events, the event organizer would be able to split the fleet into 2....I can see why they don;t....not enough boats on the line.   How's racing on the river??  I hope to get out there one day?

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7 minutes ago, musicman said:

Totally true, 4-5 knots of current & rock dodging.... makes for some interesting races!

Only the strong survive.

The only thing to watch out for on the Hudson are the Rodney's going 40 knots on there cabin cruisers, hammered behind the wheel 

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I did the island race last year as Viper 640 crew and it was crazy. Luckily the owners really knew the course and where all the rocks were and we passed everyone in front of us and got line honors. The Melges 32 almost caught us, but they gave us a sweet wake tow back to Noank. 

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1 hour ago, jesposito said:

Only the strong survive.

The only thing to watch out for on the Hudson are the Rodney's going 40 knots on there cabin cruisers, hammered behind the wheel 

Or the Johnny's in their Makos.........

 

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2 hours ago, Streetwise said:

I did the island race last year as Viper 640 crew and it was crazy. Luckily the owners really knew the course and where all the rocks were and we passed everyone in front of us and got line honors. The Melges 32 almost caught us, but they gave us a sweet wake tow back to Noank. 

Last years FI race was my favorite direction, clockwise into the tide beating. If you get it wrong you pay BIG TIME if you get it right you're gone. The Ram island Race last year was also super tough with very light conditions and tide with the race restarting 1/2 way through and then being shortened. Close to 1/2 of the fleet did not finish. Neither of these are good races to study regarding PHRF ratings as the ratings themselves had very little to do with the results.... 

This is us just before the finish of the FI race. 

 

16798012_251009978687059_1848784207922200032_o.jpg

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Last years regatta winds were 25+ and roller furling sucks.  But 30 ft. boats will crush a 22 footer anyway. 

Go back to 2015 and there were 4 boats also in my fleet --- 2 days of racing resulted in 1 race and it might have been 1mile.    2 did not finish.  (One big one ran aground) 

If you look at the average speeds -- very low for many races.  

Hard to tack against 1 kt of current when you can only go 1.1kts.  

Now a boat which can go 1.1 kt will eventually make it around the course where as a boat which can only do 1 kt will not even make it across the starting line.  A 30 ft. boat will blanket a smaller boat at the line or anytime they get between the smaller boat and the wind.  

Now talk about stupid PHRF handicappers.  We have a Catalina tall mast 25 which was given the same # as the standard rig 25. And when I pointed it out to him he still ignored me. And this I pay $25/year. ( Where as the  27 tall mast and 30 tall mast have lower #'s then the standard rig) . He demanded "data" fro me.  Ha ha,  he didn't know I had the 2001 PHRF book I made a table showing all the fleets which had both boats and that they were rated differently. When I told him I was going to put it in writing and send him a certified letter, he finally had it changed.    Back in the 1980's the Catalina 25's were around 218-225.  Then they got bumped up to the 246 #.  The HIGHEST of any PHRF fleet in the USA.

Some of our club races,  one big fleet --- J-105 against O'Day 23 ... 

Hershey

PS: Looks like Block Island Race week uses ToT 550 for all their races.    Another Long island Racing organization uses 480 for their factor.  Eastchester Bay ...

 

 

 

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Here is an idea for regions with current: use both current and wind to pick the B index for each PHRF ToT race. Perhaps this has been tested already.

For anyone in any region looking at a PHRF appeal, join or re-join US Sailing and download the current PHRF book with same-boat/different-name tables, NRRs, and regional rating tables for each reported boat. Get busy with a spreadsheet, compare with similar boats, compute deltas, averages. weighted averages, etc.

For race organizers, if you have the numbers, use displacement + PHRF in your class splits, or even category splits with a list of boats, like sportboats.

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So you think raising the issue that a Catalina 25 tall mast having the same # as the standard rig is wining ?

Or was that a legitimate issue?

 

Many places it has become a $$$ game. Buying new hi-tech sails.  Selecting a boat by a "favorable" #.

We had one boat many years ago where the owner was the champion. ( 6 yacht clubs )  He moved and another person purchased the boat --- low and behold

they became champions... 

 

We broke up our clubs non-spinnaker fleet at around 25 ft.  End result more  small boats came out ....

It looks like the >> 25 might not even have enough boats to race this year..

 

Back in the 60's Drag racing was popular.  The average guy could go to the track, disconnect his muffler and have a chance.  

Then gas stations started sponsoring, then car dealership joined in.  End result the average guy dropped out.  

 

Hershey

 

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The current US Sailing PHRF book has nine different Catalina 25 models, each with regional ratings. Get the new book and make an appeal. You should be able to compute different averages and weighted averages for each model. It looks like a lot more regional rating data than many other classes. Good luck.

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1) You guys are missing the point.  When someone questions a PHRF # that is obviously incorrect your regions handicapper should not ignore it and say you are a whiner, buy a new boat, life's unfair,,,,,.

After six months of saying the number was correct he finally relented and raised the appeal to the local PHRF board.and the # was changed...At the time I had access to the US Sailing page and "talked" with someone.  That person told me to give it to the handicapper in writing and if no response contact him again.  I guess Mr. Local Handicapper realized I had gone above him .  But one should not have had to go to that extreme for an obvious correction!  That was my bitch. His attitude is "I AM KING", do not dare challenge me.

2) Note: All my calculations are with PHRF formulas. The system is actually quite simple, but impressive.  Wasn't it developed by some MIT students?

3) Sail to your #.  That is a favorite saying amongst PHRF racers. I have shown using PHRF formulas your # directly reflects what your average speed should be.

He who sails closest to his # wins!

4) I see where many regions annually review their data.  I have never seen such a review in 30 years.

5) Especially on light air, strong current days do you see fleets with large PHRF spreads the finish order biased to the lower # PHRF boats finishing ahead of the higher PHRF boats?  Actual and corrected.  That should tell the PHRF experts something.

6) Our Wednesday evening races are for fun.  No awards or trophies.  They are the best.

7) Time on Time    You correction is based not on unit of distance but on unit of time.  Example; for every hour out on the course you may have to give your competitor

1 minute, 1.1 minute or 1.2 minutes  depending on the correction factor 600, 550, 480.

Hershey

 

 

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It will take some time to digest your page.  Wish the notes on the side were little clearer.  Have to go to club and help putting docks in for the season.  

 

Hershey

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The effects of current on PHRF results are minimal -- when the spreads are minimal.  

But when the spreads go 40-50-70-100 then it is a waste of time for the slower boats to even come out.

 

 

 

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That argument cuts both ways, it's handicap racing, despite the best intentions of every system, every race will feature boats that are more suited to the conditions / have an advantage on that particular day.

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20 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

That argument cuts both ways, it's handicap racing, despite the best intentions of every system, every race will feature boats that are more suited to the conditions / have an advantage on that particular day.

In current -- it ALWAYS FAVORS THE boats with significantly lower PHRFs..

 

You take a 35' boat with a PHRF of 127 and put it against a 22' boat with a PHRF of 222 and add in .5kt+ of current.  Who do you think will wind?

 

Hershey

 

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On 7/26/2017 at 0:36 PM, sailman said:

Current affects all boats equally.

Wrong;

Take 1 kt from a 5 kt. boat you reduce their speed by 20%.  Take 1 kt from a 4 kt boat you reduce it's speed by 25%

 

Now let's take a light air condition.  Take .5kt from a 1 kt boat you reduce  it's speed by 50 %.  Take .5kt from a 1.5kt boat and you will reduce it's speed by 33%.

 

And if the boat can only make 1 kt and the current is 1 kt --- that boat doesn't make it to the starting line.  Where the boat that can go 1.2 kt will make it around the course.

 

Are you getting the drift :-)

 

Hershey

 

 

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Percent of speed is irrelevant.  You just proved my point, both boats were slowed the same amount.  

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On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 8:53 AM, Hershey said:

In current -- it ALWAYS FAVORS THE boats with significantly lower PHRFs..

 

You take a 35' boat with a PHRF of 127 and put it against a 22' boat with a PHRF of 222 and add in .5kt+ of current.  Who do you think will wind?

 

Hershey

 

omfg.

TOT?

or

TOD?

 

popcorn, check.

beer, check.

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No --- the results do not average out because you spend MORE time going against the current and les time with it.

Hershey

 

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If the race was only a "one way" race, with the current helping -- it favors the slower PHRF boat, because the distance sailed over the water is less then between the buoys. 

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And to sum it up.

Assuming the numbers are correct.

If boats are grouped by reasonably close #'s the system works

If there are large spreads -- system falls apart.  >> 21 secs/mile.

If you have a problem with one # then

Give a boat a # that is too low, you ruin it for that person.

Give a person a # too high, then you ruin it for the fleet.

Hershey

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May I ask why you avoided addressing my TOT v. TOD question? And I would like to pose another question. If PHRF is in theory empirical, then does not that aspect of the rating rule automatically take into account any actual effects current would have on rating deltas?

 

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6 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

May I ask why you avoided addressing my TOT v. TOD question? And I would like to pose another question. If PHRF is in theory empirical, then does not that aspect of the rating rule automatically take into account any actual effects current would have on rating deltas?

 

Don't cloud this issue with facts, he's on a roll.

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On 7/31/2017 at 8:40 AM, BillDBastard said:

May I ask why you avoided addressing my TOT v. TOD question? And I would like to pose another question. If PHRF is in theory empirical, then does not that aspect of the rating rule automatically take into account any actual effects current would have on rating deltas?

 

No;

PHRF numbers are based on 

1) a windward/leeward race

2) No current

3) Wind around 10 kts.

ToT does PARTIALLY  correct for current effects and courses not being windward/leeward.

 

hershey

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, CrushDigital said:

Have you ever actually looked at a PHRF cert?

Yup;

I have mine right in front of me.  What should I look at?

Hershey

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Yup;

I have mine right in front of me.  What should I look at?

Hershey

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On 7/30/2017 at 4:47 PM, Swabbie said:

Then down current the slower boat is favored and it evens out? 

No  more time is going slow and less time going fast.  Does not even out

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Do you even sail or have you sailed in current?  To borrow a phrase...You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

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26 minutes ago, sailman said:

Do you even sail or have you sailed in current?  To borrow a phrase...You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

Lets say the wind is coming from the due north, heading to the windward mark is 0 degrees and the current is running from North to South.   That is what I mean.

Hershey

 

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Just curious. Are any of the sailors here on a PHRF committee?  Please identify yourselves so we can see where you are coming from.  

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Hershey said:

Just curious. Are any of the sailors here on a PHRF committee?  Please identify yourselves so we can see where you are coming from.  

 

 

 

Nor possibly

But you are dealing with a lot of uninformed experts 

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On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 11:41 AM, Hershey said:

No;

PHRF numbers are based on 

1) a windward/leeward race

2) No current

3) Wind around 10 kts.

ToT does PARTIALLY  correct for current effects and courses not being windward/leeward.

 

hershey

 

 

 

 

I.) No they are not solely based on L/W.

2.) There is always current. No one is sitting there backing out current to derive a PHRF number.

3.) Wind speed is irrelevant, PHRF is empirical and as such looks solely at a broad spectrum of finish of boats relative to one another. While that averages out to 8-12 knots in WLIS, it is not a function of PHRF ratings as per se.

4.) Are you on drugs? ToD, regardless of current, positive or negative is only going to be a factor if one set of boats sails in an odd number of tide cycles while the other an even number of tide cycles. On a 4 hour day race or 30-40 W/L race it means zip. The delta of finish times would remain the same for the vast majority and certainly average out over series or seasons.

And 5.), for bonus points, kindly explain why ToT would serve to even things out some (this should be interesting).

 

CD is onto something when he asks if you have ever read a PHRF cert or actually have any actual experience. Your first name doesn't start with the letter T or W by any chance, does it?

 

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Nope;  They are based on a Windward/Leeward course.    

My friend.  Take 2 PHRF #'s 60 secs/mile and figure out  the speed for each boat per PHRF.  3600/(550+PHRF#)

now "sail" them around a course  with 2.5 miles between buoys.  Figure the upwind leg will be 1.4 x 2,5 or 3.5 miles over the water. ( 45 degree tack angel)

Figure out how long it will take each boat to complete the course.   I bet it comes out to be 5 minutes.  

When you complete this exercise, then come back and post your results.

Hershey

 

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No, they are not solely based on W/L's. Now go look at your PHRF cert again and see if you can figure out why it has two separate ratings.

You, ummm  spend way too much time on creating a theoretical scenario for your own mental masturbation and likely no where's near enough time trying to understand why this is all taken into account automatically in an empirical rating system such as PHRF

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1 hour ago, BillDBastard said:

No, they are not solely based on W/L's. Now go look at your PHRF cert again and see if you can figure out why it has two separate ratings.

You, ummm  spend way too much time on creating a theoretical scenario for your own mental masturbation and likely no where's near enough time trying to understand why this is all taken into account automatically in an empirical rating system such as PHRF

Excuse me;  My PHRF certificate based on YRALIS only has 2 sets of numbers.  Spinnaker and non spinnaker ratings.

 

AS far as my mental masturbation.  Those are all based on PHRF formulas.

 

Hershey

 

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10 hours ago, Swabbie said:

Does phrf factor in cheaters and their cheater ways?

who's cheating now?

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10 mile race;  5 miles between buoys

3600/(550+180) = 4.93kts     3600/(550+120) = 5.37kts
PHRF difference  of 1 minute/mile.
10 ktm / 4.93 kts = 2.03 hrs.  10 ktm/ 5.37 kts = 1.86 hrs.
2.03-1.86= .17 hrs.
.17hr.  X 60 minutes/hr = 10.2 minutes.
Had I carried the decimal places out further, the time difference would approach 10.0000 minutes.
Does anybody think this happens by accident?

Hershey

Now, how many PHRF 120 boats can average 5.37kts in 10 kts of wind?

Oh wait a minute!  There is a 45 degree tack going upwind ( 5 miles) so the overall course would be 1.2  x longer.  

That means both boats average speed over the water would have to be 20% faster.

So the 180 PHRF boat would have to average 5.9 kts  ( fat chance)

and the 120 PHRF boat would have to average 6.44kts

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1 hour ago, Snaggletooth said:

Is swabbie a expo socke?

no idea, although we did have a Hustler crew member a bunch of years ago that we called swabbie. Could be him

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5 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Is swabbie a expo socke?

It is definitely not me 

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16 hours ago, Swabbie said:

Does phrf factor in cheaters and their cheater ways?

Only if they are presented the true picture of the modifications

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On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 9:55 PM, Hershey said:

Excuse me;  My PHRF certificate based on YRALIS only has 2 sets of numbers.  Spinnaker and non spinnaker ratings.

 

AS far as my mental masturbation.  Those are all based on PHRF formulas.

 

Hershey

 

No distance racing number?

The failure of your premise L. is that you somehow think ratings are derived only AFTER current effects are removed or cleansed from the process. They are not and can not be. Back in the old MHS days there was a number introduced call "random circular" as apart of those certificates. While that was a derived number, PHRF is in effect based on a random circular view of yacht performance. Years ago WLIS PHRF realized that results varied from W/L and Distance and tried to make accommodations in ratings to reflect this and introduced a distance rating and a W/L rating.

 

Now if you spent half as much time working on your sailing skills and boat prep, as you do on jerking off trying to prove an unprovable, I'd suspect you wouldn't remain an also ran..... or maybe you would.

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4 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Are you sure? I mean maybe you are still having those schizophrenia episodes.

I thouht he stopte halving thoise when he putte the seatte backe on hisse bicke.                    :)

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You say that as if he sees that as a positive development.

 

Quick poll.

Who is Swabbie?

Select 1 if you think it is Expo.

Select 2 if you think it is Left Hook.

Select 3 if you think it is BTBOTFA.

Select 4 if you think it is Dacapo.

Select 5 if you think it is Crush Digital.

Select 6 if you think it is Number 6.

Select 7 if you think it is Sandy Vagina.

Select 8 if you think it is none of the above.

Select 9 if you think it is all of the above.

Select 10 to repeat these options.

Or select "0" to be connected with the next available representative.

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My goodness Bill, I never realized you were such a snowflake. If outing someone is suggesting they may have used one of 6 or more "anonymous" screen names in the past is outing them, you need to get both a gripe and a clue.

 

NOTE; It should not be assumed or construed that using the phrase "anonymous" in any way trying to suggest the alternative identity of any user. The names have been changed to protect the innocent.

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1 hour ago, BillDBastard said:

No distance racing number?

The failure of your premise L. is that you somehow think ratings are derived only AFTER current effects are removed or cleansed from the process. They are not and can not be. Back in the old MHS days there was a number introduced call "random circular" as apart of those certificates. While that was a derived number, PHRF is in effect based on a random circular view of yacht performance. Years ago WLIS PHRF realized that results varied from W/L and Distance and tried to make accommodations in ratings to reflect this and introduced a distance rating and a W/L rating.

 

Now if you spent half as much time working on your sailing skills and boat prep, as you do on jerking off trying to prove an unprovable, I'd suspect you wouldn't remain an also ran..... or maybe you would.

 

 

My friend.  My belief is that PHRF #'s are based on W/L 10 kts wind and a no-current.  No where did I state otherwise.

What I do state is

1) that current has a major influence on how well PHRF works.    Current cannot be worked into the PHRF#'s

2) Close PHRF splits negate any problems created by current.  

3) Racing a 22 ft 222 PHRF boat against a 35.5 ft 127 PHRF in a high current area -- is a guaranteed drubbing of the 22 ft. boat no matter how great the skipper  of the 22 ft. boat, or how lousy the skipper of the 35.5 ft. boat is.

*******************************************************************************************************

10 mile "race   5 miles between buoys.

3600/(550+180) = 4.93kts     3600/(550+120) = 5.37kts
PHRF difference  of 1 minute/mile.
10 ktm / 4.93 kts = 2.03 hrs.  1  0 ktm/ 5.37 kts = 1.86 hrs.
2.03-1.86= .17 hrs.
.17hr.  X 60 minutes/hr = 10.2 minutes.
Had I carried the decimal places out further, the time difference would approach 10.0000 minutes.
Do you think this happens by accident?

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Hershey said:

 

 

My friend.  My belief is that PHRF #'s are based on W/L 10 kts wind and a no-current.  No where did I state otherwise.

What I do state is

1) that current has a major influence on how well PHRF works.    Current cannot be worked into the PHRF#'s

2) Close PHRF splits negate any problems created by current.  

3) Racing a 22 ft 222 PHRF boat against a 35.5 ft 127 PHRF in a high current area -- is a guaranteed drubbing of the 22 ft. boat no matter how great the skipper  of the 22 ft. boat, or how lousy the skipper of the 35.5 ft. boat is.

*******************************************************************************************************

10 mile "race   5 miles between buoys.

3600/(550+180) = 4.93kts     3600/(550+120) = 5.37kts
PHRF difference  of 1 minute/mile.
10 ktm / 4.93 kts = 2.03 hrs.  1  0 ktm/ 5.37 kts = 1.86 hrs.
2.03-1.86= .17 hrs.
.17hr.  X 60 minutes/hr = 10.2 minutes.
Had I carried the decimal places out further, the time difference would approach 10.0000 minutes.
Do you think this happens by accident?

 

 

 

 

First off you stated exactly what I paraphrased.

Second, there are few who do not understand that PRF ratings are skewed against the entire spectrum. Has nothing to do with current. Boats that rate 0, relative to boats that rate 100, are favored by 10% or greater as a general rule. Identifying this is pretty easy, correcting it a whole other subject.

Third, far more relevant than current is wind speed at surface compared to 100 feet above surface, and weather systems in longer events.

Finally, just as it may be possible for faster rated boats to benefit from strong current, the same is also true at other times that slower boats can also favor same.

The fact that you have this disconnect in logic is far more noteworthy than any perceive discrepancies. Now go whine at GS some more about how your rating is soooooo unfair.

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BillDBastard        Not wining --- I'm relatively happy with my number 222 and the boats I sail against weekly.  But I no longer will pay to race a regatta where I will be pitted against a 36' 127 PHRF.  

It is PHRF that is wining about membership and participation going down :-)

 

Hershey

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I don't know if your region uses different Time-on-Time formulas, but we do up here on Lake Champlain. Here is text from an update we posted:

LCYC has reviewed our implementation of the PHRF time-on-time formula this year after questions were raised by competitors. The PHRF time-on-time formula allows for localization via two “indexes”, set for each of three wind/course conditions: light wind or sailing mostly downwind, heavy wind or sailing mostly to windward, or someplace in the middle.
 
US Sailing suggests certain values for the “B” index. (The larger the B index, the less attention is paid to phrf differences).

600 Light
550 Medium
480 Strong

 

At LCYC we use the "average windspeed for the duration of the race" as the sole factor to decide which bracket we use for each race. Our brackets are:
 
<10, 10-15, >15.

Years past we have used the following B index values:

 

650, 550, 480.

This year, after review, we intend to adopt the US Sailing recommended values
 
600, 550, 480.

The formula also allows setting an “A” index. This value does not affect the finish order on corrected time. It merely “centers” the correction factor on the boats in the middle of the fleet. So faster boats have corrected time greater than elapsed time, and slower boats have corrected time less than elapsed time. For this to be true one needs to set the “A” index to the “B” index value + the middle of the fleet PHRF. For LCYC that is a PHRF of 120, so for A index values we intend to use 720, 670, 600.

LCYC intends to use:

 

Wind:      <10  10-15    >15 
A Index    720    670    600
B Index    600    550    480

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On PHRF in general;  Do any of you get a "statement" on where/how the dues are spent?

Hershey

 

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Maybe Sailman 

On 8/4/2017 at 1:32 PM, Streetwise said:

I don't know if your region uses different Time-on-Time formulas, but we do up here on Lake Champlain. Here is text from an update we posted:

LCYC has reviewed our implementation of the PHRF time-on-time formula this year after questions were raised by competitors. The PHRF time-on-time formula allows for localization via two “indexes”, set for each of three wind/course conditions: light wind or sailing mostly downwind, heavy wind or sailing mostly to windward, or someplace in the middle.
 
US Sailing suggests certain values for the “B” index. (The larger the B index, the less attention is paid to phrf differences).

600 Light
550 Medium
480 Strong

 

At LCYC we use the "average windspeed for the duration of the race" as the sole factor to decide which bracket we use for each race. Our brackets are:
 
<10, 10-15, >15.

Years past we have used the following B index values:

 

650, 550, 480.

This year, after review, we intend to adopt the US Sailing recommended values
 
600, 550, 480.

The formula also allows setting an “A” index. This value does not affect the finish order on corrected time. It merely “centers” the correction factor on the boats in the middle of the fleet. So faster boats have corrected time greater than elapsed time, and slower boats have corrected time less than elapsed time. For this to be true one needs to set the “A” index to the “B” index value + the middle of the fleet PHRF. For LCYC that is a PHRF of 120, so for A index values we intend to use 720, 670, 600.

LCYC intends to use:

 

Wind:      <10  10-15    >15 
A Index    720    670    600
B Index    600    550    480

Maybe Sailman can pontificate on the above.;)

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How the ratings are derived/assigned, and the effect of a given rating in varying conditions are separate issues. 

We rate 174 in YRA NORCAL PHRF with a 40' boat, 20,000 lb 29' waterline, high wetted surface, wide shroud base, low aspect etc. 

Sailing out in the bay, with/without currents if we have > 10 kts of wind we can be competitive with fin keel <5000 lb 25' boats. 

Sailing in less than 5kts TWS we get generally get crushed, especially if there's current, and we are on the Estuary with <200 yard width.
We sail under both TOD and TOT.

Generally the conditions and number of bad decisions are more far more significant than the scoring algorithm. 

Could expend energy bitching, or just go out and sail. 

 

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Does anyone else vary the correction factor with wind? We can’t be the only region. 

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53 minutes ago, Streetwise said:

Does anyone else vary the correction factor with wind? We can’t be the only region. 

No, you our correctte, crappey winde = crappey resulttes

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This was a very important change for our distance events, not just using the wind speed from the start or finish, but taking the average. It did affect results in what we considered a positive way.

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So?

So there was some big pow-wow like a week or so ago where representatives from the member clubs that make up YRALIS convened to review and comment on 2018 PHRF Regulations, which were extensively rewritten over the past several months. Some of the language updated, some paragraphs tweaked and weight limits essentially dropped. Also included in the package is a new Technical Committee which has far reaching powers from what I understand, including the power to revoke certificates and order rescoring of member club events. I understand this was all done in consultation with at least one senior judge and US Sailing.

Anyone know more or give us regular folks a run down?

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16 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

So?  Anyone know more or give us regular folks a run down?

you werre theire, you tellus.                 :)

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So you are Choo Choo Charlie!

Ha!

I knew it!!!

 

Nah, Expo made me post that, said he would break my legs if I didn't.

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On 1/12/2018 at 7:55 PM, Streetwise said:

Does anyone else vary the correction factor with wind? We can’t be the only region. 

you're the only place I've seen that is varying both the A and the B based on wind speed. But it really doesn't matter I don't think if you're still basing it on a single PHRF number. Here's your thought experiment. Say you have a fairly light 32'er that rates 72 (A). Fractional non-overlapping jibs, masthead kite, 5500 lbs overall weight. Then you have a J109 in OD config that *also* rates 72 (J). Small jib, masthead kite, more waterline, more mass. With your formulas, the TCF between these two boats will remain identical. However, observational data will tell you that on a W/L course in your light wind range, A is as fast upwind and faster downwind (VMG) and will beat J 75% - 90% of the time. In your mid wind range, J is fully powered up and uses its waterline to beat A upwind. A is in sub-planing conditions and so may have similar to slightly slower downwind speeds and hotter angles, J wins 75 - 90% of the time. In high wind conditions, A is slower upwind but can plane/surf downwind. both boats are probably about even on a W/L course. On a reaching course, A crushes J.

None of this is factored in to the formula since it's agnostic to the boat type and only accounts for the single PHRF number. 

I think where you're trying to go is a good start, but I don't think you get to any kind of true parity until you look at either a VPP based system or at least different PHRF numbers for your wind ranges or course types.

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I’m on mobile, but we only change one of those, not both. We followed US Sailing’s recommendations. 

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"PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Racing Fleet, and it describes a group of sailboats of varying performance characteristics that are handicapped for racing on the basis of observed performance, rather than the measured dimensions. It is the purpose of the PHRF system to handicap yachts of various classes or types on the basis of the potential speed of a well-sailed, well-maintained, and well-equipped specimen of each type. It is not the purpose of the PHRF system to handicap skippers and crews. Where sailing skill (or lack of it) is the cause of  the result, winning will not lead to a faster rating, nor losing to a slower one." 

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43 minutes ago, Streetwise said:

I’m on mobile, but we only change one of those, not both. We followed US Sailing’s recommendations. 

Streetwise, is this not your table?

Wind:      <10  10-15    >15 
A Index    720    670    600
B Index    600    550    480

That looks like you're changing both. However, regardless my point is actually the same - changing the denominator doesn't change the fact that two well-prepared, well-sailed boats of different types but same rating are going to perform differently in those wind conditions, but no matter what you do the formula, you're never going to catch that nuance if your PHRF number remains the same across each wind condition.

This has real implications in our fleet where we've got 109s at 72, B36.7's at 78, and a few others within a few seconds of each other. As it stands now, we know before the race starts where we're likely to end up based on the wind strength.

looking at your table, it's also interesting that you chose such a small middle range compared to the low and high. We're looking at a 0 - 7.9, 8 - 15.9, and 16+ for our 3 ranges.

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2 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

Nah, Expo made me post that, said he would break my legs if I didn't.

Common, expo dossentte do stuffe licke that annymorre, he hase peopel nowe.

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We should probably update our description.

I looked at the Sailwave file for scoring, and here is what I see:

Sailwave: Setup/Scoring System/Rating System

Use wind indexed rating values

<10, 10-15, >15

Default A value: 670

Wind indexed A values: 720, 670, 600

Default B value: 550

Wind indexed B values: 650, 550, 480

What I see is that each A value is the corresponding B value + 120.

You are right that we are moving each value, but I think we are doing it in the intended fashion. The formula description should be improved.

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2 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

 

Funny .   

If regular folks or their representatives  couldn't bother to attend, they will have to wait for the final draft!

Thanks to the exceptional folks from about 30 clubs that did make the effort to support their YRA and improve the process! 

Weight credits are gone (Unless a OA specifically wants to have them) . Technical Comm (as recommended by US Sailing) established..

RF credits may get a big rewrite in time for this season.   Still time for folks to provide input to their favorite elected YRALIS representatives or

their club own reps.  

Maybe the regular folks were at the STC LIS event that decided to do it on the same night  at Ponus YC?   I hope they had tetanus shots updated.

Anyway this was the chat in the pubs on Emmons Ave. last week . FWIW.

  

STC is there to help! They are there to promote racing and seamanship!

Yep, well it has been years since any YRA Prez had the stones to convene all the delegates/reps in a single room. So 30+ clubs out of what??? 75-80 is actually a pretty good turn out and something to build on I suspect.

I think the pot that is RF credits has to simmer a bit longer before a solution rises to the top of the stew. That and the Yearbook deadline is like now, so any last minute rewrite impractical.  But you are right Tony, RF credits need serious attention to stop people from gaming that aspect of the regs. I know, I know, That's Ridiculous!

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50 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Common, expo dossentte do stuffe licke that annymorre, he hase peopel nowe.

There is a whole stringe of damagued relashunshits that say you are wronge Snailgly. But that's a whoe other thread.

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2 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

There is a whole stringe of damagued relashunshits that say you are wronge Snailgly. But that's a whoe other thread.

OK, he is prettey proude of his cemente bootes.                       :)

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15 hours ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

I sense doom and unmitigated failure for OEM roller furler designs as far as credits go.  It's meant for the casual amateur/family racer. Not the JBoat OD fleet at BIRW with pro crews. Some RAs require cloth restrictions, sun leech covers l, etc. YRALIS had been behind the curve here. But yes, probably too late to address this year with all else that's been changed.  

I wonder what Espo thinks on thisz?

I've sharpened up my guillotine.

The cement boots have been polished.

Roller furler credits on boats that are designed that way, NOW That's Ridiculous!  

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4 hours ago, jesposito said:

I've sharpened up my guillotine.

The cement boots have been polished.

Roller furler credits on boats that are designed that way, NOW That's Ridiculous!  

image.png.71a38357a6120738d920ca25d8a88e46.png

:)

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On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 2:55 PM, jesposito said:

I've sharpened up my guillotine.

The cement boots have been polished.

Roller furler credits on boats that are designed that way, NOW That's Ridiculous!  

What the hell are you two on about now?

Don't make me seem the voice of reason..... just not within my element.

 

Its a big stick, not a big swingin' dick you two.

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On 3/9/2018 at 6:52 PM, BillDBastard said:

What the hell are you two on about now?

Don't make me seem the voice of reason..... just not within my element.

 

Its a big stick, not a big swingin' dick you two.

5aa52b089a1ca_phrfpolice.thumb.jpg.785c5f393356d6f1be95cd6096dbd9d8.jpg

PHRF Police Uniform 

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58 minutes ago, footlong said:

Get rid of all weight restrictions

Well since you make such a persuasive argument, done.

Anything else sir?

The 2018 PHRF Regulations have severely modified the language regarding weight limits. The weight limit number will still exist on a YRALIS PHRF Certificate. The reasoning for this is that it is part and parcel to the performance of the boat and how it rates against other boats. Not 100% on that one but so be it, no harm, no foul (or is it fowl).

From what I understand, the Regs now state that in order for weight limits to be in effect, an OA or event sponsor must declare in their NOR's and SI's that weight limits will be used for their regatta(s). The onus of enforcement is solely on that event organizer to enforce these weight limits. They shall be responsible for any weigh-ins and penalties for violations. Weight credits no longer exist in Western Long Island Sound. Boats will now be sailing with the number that makes sense for that particular boat/design/conditions/capabilities.

Note of caution. I am no expert on the latest version of these regs. If I understand correctly that was the gist of the last iteration which I believe went off to the presses like Friday. I strongly suggest that once the 2018 YRALIS Yearbook arrives, that you and your crew read through them carefully. They are markedly different from the "boilerplate" that existed for so many years. This rewrite was a long time coming and many had a hand in how it has evolved.

While many modifications and changes were made to "clean up" the PHRF Regulations that had been cobbled together over the decades, by far the biggest change that ever WLIS sailor needs to understand is the formation of a YRALIS Technical Committee. This was done in accordance with new language that appeared in the latest version of the RRS. That language allows for a Technical Committee to be appointed by an OA for their event. YRALIS went a step further and created a Technical Committee at large. That is to say each individual OA/club does not need to appoint a TechCom for their event. They are still free to do so if they wish but the YRALIS Technical Committee exists in any event and is there to see that the PHRF Certificates are being adhered to.. Note that this was done in consultation with US Sailing and run by a Senior Judge to make sure it was according to Hoyle. The tools available to the TechCom are formidable from how I understand them. Probably best not to expand on my cursory understanding of the TechCom and their span of authority until the new PHRF Regulations are available to all members of The YRALIS. However it is most important that every sailor who races on WLIS read and understand these changes and understand the ramifications for not being in compliance with your boat's PHRF Certificate. It is most important that your boat is being sailed in the trim you declared it to be in on your PHRF Certificate.

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On 3/7/2018 at 11:13 PM, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

I sense doom and unmitigated failure for OEM roller furler designs as far as credits go.  It's meant for the casual amateur/family racer. Not the JBoat OD fleet at BIRW with pro crews. Some RAs require cloth restrictions, sun leech covers l, etc. YRALIS had been behind the curve here. But yes, probably too late to address this year with all else that's been changed.  

I wonder what Espo thinks on thisz?

OK.  My understanding is that a boat's PHRF # is based on "observed performance".  PHRF "Experts" go out and observe a boats performance in average wind conditions.   Now, if a boat comes standard with roller furling  and the boats # is based on its performance with the roller furling, then it should not get an adjustment in my book if it is sailed with roller furling.   On the other hand, if a boat's # was based on its observed performance with a hank on sail, then it should get an adjustment if roller furling is used.

Bottom line,  Tight grouping of like boats works best.

 

 

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1 minute ago, TonyFromSheepsheadBay said:

That is more or less the idea regarding the RF credit review process that is gaining grass roots momentum.  Many YRAs around the country have much more stringent  RF credit policies than YRALIS currently has, in order to restore the original intent of the credit.  And reduce the possibility of brawls in The OAR parking lot.  

 

 

Go look at PHRF-NE's policy. they've actually expanded their "recreational" credit to include above and below deck furlers, clearly outside the original intent of the rule. Needless to say, it's one of the most abused "credits" in PHRF-NE, even by sailors who know better and are good enough that they don't need it.

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