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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Flat Stanley

YRALIS PHRF minutes

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This is our ToT formula:

 

LCYC has reviewed our implementation of the PHRF time-on-time formula this year after questions were raised by competitors. The PHRF time-on-time formula allows for localization via two “indexes”, set for each of three wind/course conditions: light wind or sailing mostly downwind, heavy wind or sailing mostly to windward, or someplace in the middle.

US Sailing suggests certain values for the “B” index. (The larger the B index, the less attention is paid to phrf differences).

US Sailing suggests:

600 Light

550 Medium

480 Strong

 

At LCYC we use the "average windspeed for the duration of the race" as the sole factor to decide which bracket we use for each race. Our brackets are: <10, 10-15, >15.

Years past we have used the following B index values:

 

650, 550, 480.

This year, after review, we intend to adopt the US Sailing recommended values:

 

600, 550, 480.

The formula also allows setting an “A” index. This value does not affect the finish order on corrected time. It merely “centers” the correction factor on the boats in the middle of the fleet. So faster boats have corrected time greater than elapsed time, and slower boats have corrected time less than elapsed time. For this to be true one needs to set the “A” index to the “B” index value + the middle of the fleet PHRF. For LCYC that is a PHRF of 120, so for A index values we intend to use 720, 670, 600.

LCYC intends to use:

 

Avg Wind: <10 10-15 >15


A Index: 720 670 600
B Index: 600 550 480

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Sailing on a lake ... PHRF is a lot more accurate.  Problem with sailing on the Hudson we have a current at times 1 kt.+.  For you ToD experts that makes the course sailed over the water longer then between the buoys.  Before you say, well the current helps you when it is at you back.  Yes it does, but you sail more TIME against the current and less with the current at you back, so it doesn't average out.  

 

No system can compensate for currents over .3 kts.   Other then tight grouping of PHRF #'S.  

But I got tired of sailing my San Juan 21 against Catalina 30 TMBS.  I now have a Capri 22.

 

Look at the PHRF spreads for HRYRA.org  http://www.hryra.org/phrf-racing/race-results/   And look at the Non-spinnaker fleet PHRF spreads.  Crazy.

All the smaller, slower boats are doing is donating to the big boat trophy fund.

 

Hershey

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Hershey said:

Sailing on a lake ... PHRF is a lot more accurate.  Problem with sailing on the Hudson we have a current at times 1 kt.+.  For you ToD experts that makes the course sailed over the water longer then between the buoys.  Before you say, well the current helps you when it is at you back.  Yes it does, but you sail more TIME against the current and less with the current at you back, so it doesn't average out.  

 

No system can compensate for currents over .3 kts.   Other then tight grouping of PHRF #'S.  

But I got tired of sailing my San Juan 21 against Catalina 30 TMBS.  I now have a Capri 22.

 

Look at the PHRF spreads for HRYRA.org  http://www.hryra.org/phrf-racing/race-results/   And look at the Non-spinnaker fleet PHRF spreads.  Crazy.

All the smaller, slower boats are doing is donating to the big boat trophy fund.

 

Hershey

 

 

 

You have no idea about current effect until you sail in Eastern CT behind Fishers Is, it makes the Hudson's current like a lake  

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26 minutes ago, jesposito said:

You have no idea about current effect until you sail in Eastern CT behind Fishers Is, it makes the Hudson's current like a lake  

Totally true, 4-5 knots of current & rock dodging.... makes for some interesting races!

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36 minutes ago, Hershey said:

Sailing on a lake ... PHRF is a lot more accurate.  Problem with sailing on the Hudson we have a current at times 1 kt.+.  For you ToD experts that makes the course sailed over the water longer then between the buoys.  Before you say, well the current helps you when it is at you back.  Yes it does, but you sail more TIME against the current and less with the current at you back, so it doesn't average out.  

 

No system can compensate for currents over .3 kts.   Other then tight grouping of PHRF #'S.  

But I got tired of sailing my San Juan 21 against Catalina 30 TMBS.  I now have a Capri 22.

 

Look at the PHRF spreads for HRYRA.org  http://www.hryra.org/phrf-racing/race-results/   And look at the Non-spinnaker fleet PHRF spreads.  Crazy.

All the smaller, slower boats are doing is donating to the big boat trophy fund.

 

Hershey

 

 

 

mm, as far as I can see...you did say you sail a capri 22 so I don;t understand your whiny complaint??  You sailed in 1 regatta, not 6 .....you sailed against 3 other boats...phrf of 213,243,183 and you at 222.  Not a terribly huge spread.  As I look at the results from all six regattas,  I do see a lot of boats with a large spread of handicaps but perhaps if they sailed in more than just 1 or 2 events, the event organizer would be able to split the fleet into 2....I can see why they don;t....not enough boats on the line.   How's racing on the river??  I hope to get out there one day?

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7 minutes ago, musicman said:

Totally true, 4-5 knots of current & rock dodging.... makes for some interesting races!

Only the strong survive.

The only thing to watch out for on the Hudson are the Rodney's going 40 knots on there cabin cruisers, hammered behind the wheel 

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I did the island race last year as Viper 640 crew and it was crazy. Luckily the owners really knew the course and where all the rocks were and we passed everyone in front of us and got line honors. The Melges 32 almost caught us, but they gave us a sweet wake tow back to Noank. 

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1 hour ago, jesposito said:

Only the strong survive.

The only thing to watch out for on the Hudson are the Rodney's going 40 knots on there cabin cruisers, hammered behind the wheel 

Or the Johnny's in their Makos.........

 

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2 hours ago, Streetwise said:

I did the island race last year as Viper 640 crew and it was crazy. Luckily the owners really knew the course and where all the rocks were and we passed everyone in front of us and got line honors. The Melges 32 almost caught us, but they gave us a sweet wake tow back to Noank. 

Last years FI race was my favorite direction, clockwise into the tide beating. If you get it wrong you pay BIG TIME if you get it right you're gone. The Ram island Race last year was also super tough with very light conditions and tide with the race restarting 1/2 way through and then being shortened. Close to 1/2 of the fleet did not finish. Neither of these are good races to study regarding PHRF ratings as the ratings themselves had very little to do with the results.... 

This is us just before the finish of the FI race. 

 

16798012_251009978687059_1848784207922200032_o.jpg

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Last years regatta winds were 25+ and roller furling sucks.  But 30 ft. boats will crush a 22 footer anyway. 

Go back to 2015 and there were 4 boats also in my fleet --- 2 days of racing resulted in 1 race and it might have been 1mile.    2 did not finish.  (One big one ran aground) 

If you look at the average speeds -- very low for many races.  

Hard to tack against 1 kt of current when you can only go 1.1kts.  

Now a boat which can go 1.1 kt will eventually make it around the course where as a boat which can only do 1 kt will not even make it across the starting line.  A 30 ft. boat will blanket a smaller boat at the line or anytime they get between the smaller boat and the wind.  

Now talk about stupid PHRF handicappers.  We have a Catalina tall mast 25 which was given the same # as the standard rig 25. And when I pointed it out to him he still ignored me. And this I pay $25/year. ( Where as the  27 tall mast and 30 tall mast have lower #'s then the standard rig) . He demanded "data" fro me.  Ha ha,  he didn't know I had the 2001 PHRF book I made a table showing all the fleets which had both boats and that they were rated differently. When I told him I was going to put it in writing and send him a certified letter, he finally had it changed.    Back in the 1980's the Catalina 25's were around 218-225.  Then they got bumped up to the 246 #.  The HIGHEST of any PHRF fleet in the USA.

Some of our club races,  one big fleet --- J-105 against O'Day 23 ... 

Hershey

PS: Looks like Block Island Race week uses ToT 550 for all their races.    Another Long island Racing organization uses 480 for their factor.  Eastchester Bay ...

 

 

 

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Here is an idea for regions with current: use both current and wind to pick the B index for each PHRF ToT race. Perhaps this has been tested already.

For anyone in any region looking at a PHRF appeal, join or re-join US Sailing and download the current PHRF book with same-boat/different-name tables, NRRs, and regional rating tables for each reported boat. Get busy with a spreadsheet, compare with similar boats, compute deltas, averages. weighted averages, etc.

For race organizers, if you have the numbers, use displacement + PHRF in your class splits, or even category splits with a list of boats, like sportboats.

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So you think raising the issue that a Catalina 25 tall mast having the same # as the standard rig is wining ?

Or was that a legitimate issue?

 

Many places it has become a $$$ game. Buying new hi-tech sails.  Selecting a boat by a "favorable" #.

We had one boat many years ago where the owner was the champion. ( 6 yacht clubs )  He moved and another person purchased the boat --- low and behold

they became champions... 

 

We broke up our clubs non-spinnaker fleet at around 25 ft.  End result more  small boats came out ....

It looks like the >> 25 might not even have enough boats to race this year..

 

Back in the 60's Drag racing was popular.  The average guy could go to the track, disconnect his muffler and have a chance.  

Then gas stations started sponsoring, then car dealership joined in.  End result the average guy dropped out.  

 

Hershey

 

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The current US Sailing PHRF book has nine different Catalina 25 models, each with regional ratings. Get the new book and make an appeal. You should be able to compute different averages and weighted averages for each model. It looks like a lot more regional rating data than many other classes. Good luck.

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1) You guys are missing the point.  When someone questions a PHRF # that is obviously incorrect your regions handicapper should not ignore it and say you are a whiner, buy a new boat, life's unfair,,,,,.

After six months of saying the number was correct he finally relented and raised the appeal to the local PHRF board.and the # was changed...At the time I had access to the US Sailing page and "talked" with someone.  That person told me to give it to the handicapper in writing and if no response contact him again.  I guess Mr. Local Handicapper realized I had gone above him .  But one should not have had to go to that extreme for an obvious correction!  That was my bitch. His attitude is "I AM KING", do not dare challenge me.

2) Note: All my calculations are with PHRF formulas. The system is actually quite simple, but impressive.  Wasn't it developed by some MIT students?

3) Sail to your #.  That is a favorite saying amongst PHRF racers. I have shown using PHRF formulas your # directly reflects what your average speed should be.

He who sails closest to his # wins!

4) I see where many regions annually review their data.  I have never seen such a review in 30 years.

5) Especially on light air, strong current days do you see fleets with large PHRF spreads the finish order biased to the lower # PHRF boats finishing ahead of the higher PHRF boats?  Actual and corrected.  That should tell the PHRF experts something.

6) Our Wednesday evening races are for fun.  No awards or trophies.  They are the best.

7) Time on Time    You correction is based not on unit of distance but on unit of time.  Example; for every hour out on the course you may have to give your competitor

1 minute, 1.1 minute or 1.2 minutes  depending on the correction factor 600, 550, 480.

Hershey

 

 

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It will take some time to digest your page.  Wish the notes on the side were little clearer.  Have to go to club and help putting docks in for the season.  

 

Hershey

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The effects of current on PHRF results are minimal -- when the spreads are minimal.  

But when the spreads go 40-50-70-100 then it is a waste of time for the slower boats to even come out.

 

 

 

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That argument cuts both ways, it's handicap racing, despite the best intentions of every system, every race will feature boats that are more suited to the conditions / have an advantage on that particular day.

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20 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

That argument cuts both ways, it's handicap racing, despite the best intentions of every system, every race will feature boats that are more suited to the conditions / have an advantage on that particular day.

In current -- it ALWAYS FAVORS THE boats with significantly lower PHRFs..

 

You take a 35' boat with a PHRF of 127 and put it against a 22' boat with a PHRF of 222 and add in .5kt+ of current.  Who do you think will wind?

 

Hershey

 

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On 7/26/2017 at 0:36 PM, sailman said:

Current affects all boats equally.

Wrong;

Take 1 kt from a 5 kt. boat you reduce their speed by 20%.  Take 1 kt from a 4 kt boat you reduce it's speed by 25%

 

Now let's take a light air condition.  Take .5kt from a 1 kt boat you reduce  it's speed by 50 %.  Take .5kt from a 1.5kt boat and you will reduce it's speed by 33%.

 

And if the boat can only make 1 kt and the current is 1 kt --- that boat doesn't make it to the starting line.  Where the boat that can go 1.2 kt will make it around the course.

 

Are you getting the drift :-)

 

Hershey

 

 

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On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 8:53 AM, Hershey said:

In current -- it ALWAYS FAVORS THE boats with significantly lower PHRFs..

 

You take a 35' boat with a PHRF of 127 and put it against a 22' boat with a PHRF of 222 and add in .5kt+ of current.  Who do you think will wind?

 

Hershey

 

omfg.

TOT?

or

TOD?

 

popcorn, check.

beer, check.

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No --- the results do not average out because you spend MORE time going against the current and les time with it.

Hershey

 

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If the race was only a "one way" race, with the current helping -- it favors the slower PHRF boat, because the distance sailed over the water is less then between the buoys. 

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And to sum it up.

Assuming the numbers are correct.

If boats are grouped by reasonably close #'s the system works

If there are large spreads -- system falls apart.  >> 21 secs/mile.

If you have a problem with one # then

Give a boat a # that is too low, you ruin it for that person.

Give a person a # too high, then you ruin it for the fleet.

Hershey

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May I ask why you avoided addressing my TOT v. TOD question? And I would like to pose another question. If PHRF is in theory empirical, then does not that aspect of the rating rule automatically take into account any actual effects current would have on rating deltas?

 

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6 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

May I ask why you avoided addressing my TOT v. TOD question? And I would like to pose another question. If PHRF is in theory empirical, then does not that aspect of the rating rule automatically take into account any actual effects current would have on rating deltas?

 

Don't cloud this issue with facts, he's on a roll.

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On 7/31/2017 at 8:40 AM, BillDBastard said:

May I ask why you avoided addressing my TOT v. TOD question? And I would like to pose another question. If PHRF is in theory empirical, then does not that aspect of the rating rule automatically take into account any actual effects current would have on rating deltas?

 

No;

PHRF numbers are based on 

1) a windward/leeward race

2) No current

3) Wind around 10 kts.

ToT does PARTIALLY  correct for current effects and courses not being windward/leeward.

 

hershey

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, CrushDigital said:

Have you ever actually looked at a PHRF cert?

Yup;

I have mine right in front of me.  What should I look at?

Hershey

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On 7/30/2017 at 4:47 PM, Swabbie said:

Then down current the slower boat is favored and it evens out? 

No  more time is going slow and less time going fast.  Does not even out

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Do you even sail or have you sailed in current?  To borrow a phrase...You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

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26 minutes ago, sailman said:

Do you even sail or have you sailed in current?  To borrow a phrase...You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

Lets say the wind is coming from the due north, heading to the windward mark is 0 degrees and the current is running from North to South.   That is what I mean.

Hershey

 

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Just curious. Are any of the sailors here on a PHRF committee?  Please identify yourselves so we can see where you are coming from.  

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Hershey said:

Just curious. Are any of the sailors here on a PHRF committee?  Please identify yourselves so we can see where you are coming from.  

 

 

 

Nor possibly

But you are dealing with a lot of uninformed experts 

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On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 11:41 AM, Hershey said:

No;

PHRF numbers are based on 

1) a windward/leeward race

2) No current

3) Wind around 10 kts.

ToT does PARTIALLY  correct for current effects and courses not being windward/leeward.

 

hershey

 

 

 

 

I.) No they are not solely based on L/W.

2.) There is always current. No one is sitting there backing out current to derive a PHRF number.

3.) Wind speed is irrelevant, PHRF is empirical and as such looks solely at a broad spectrum of finish of boats relative to one another. While that averages out to 8-12 knots in WLIS, it is not a function of PHRF ratings as per se.

4.) Are you on drugs? ToD, regardless of current, positive or negative is only going to be a factor if one set of boats sails in an odd number of tide cycles while the other an even number of tide cycles. On a 4 hour day race or 30-40 W/L race it means zip. The delta of finish times would remain the same for the vast majority and certainly average out over series or seasons.

And 5.), for bonus points, kindly explain why ToT would serve to even things out some (this should be interesting).

 

CD is onto something when he asks if you have ever read a PHRF cert or actually have any actual experience. Your first name doesn't start with the letter T or W by any chance, does it?

 

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Nope;  They are based on a Windward/Leeward course.    

My friend.  Take 2 PHRF #'s 60 secs/mile and figure out  the speed for each boat per PHRF.  3600/(550+PHRF#)

now "sail" them around a course  with 2.5 miles between buoys.  Figure the upwind leg will be 1.4 x 2,5 or 3.5 miles over the water. ( 45 degree tack angel)

Figure out how long it will take each boat to complete the course.   I bet it comes out to be 5 minutes.  

When you complete this exercise, then come back and post your results.

Hershey

 

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No, they are not solely based on W/L's. Now go look at your PHRF cert again and see if you can figure out why it has two separate ratings.

You, ummm  spend way too much time on creating a theoretical scenario for your own mental masturbation and likely no where's near enough time trying to understand why this is all taken into account automatically in an empirical rating system such as PHRF

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1 hour ago, BillDBastard said:

No, they are not solely based on W/L's. Now go look at your PHRF cert again and see if you can figure out why it has two separate ratings.

You, ummm  spend way too much time on creating a theoretical scenario for your own mental masturbation and likely no where's near enough time trying to understand why this is all taken into account automatically in an empirical rating system such as PHRF

Excuse me;  My PHRF certificate based on YRALIS only has 2 sets of numbers.  Spinnaker and non spinnaker ratings.

 

AS far as my mental masturbation.  Those are all based on PHRF formulas.

 

Hershey

 

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10 mile race;  5 miles between buoys

3600/(550+180) = 4.93kts     3600/(550+120) = 5.37kts
PHRF difference  of 1 minute/mile.
10 ktm / 4.93 kts = 2.03 hrs.  10 ktm/ 5.37 kts = 1.86 hrs.
2.03-1.86= .17 hrs.
.17hr.  X 60 minutes/hr = 10.2 minutes.
Had I carried the decimal places out further, the time difference would approach 10.0000 minutes.
Does anybody think this happens by accident?

Hershey

Now, how many PHRF 120 boats can average 5.37kts in 10 kts of wind?

Oh wait a minute!  There is a 45 degree tack going upwind ( 5 miles) so the overall course would be 1.2  x longer.  

That means both boats average speed over the water would have to be 20% faster.

So the 180 PHRF boat would have to average 5.9 kts  ( fat chance)

and the 120 PHRF boat would have to average 6.44kts

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1 hour ago, Snaggletooth said:

Is swabbie a expo socke?

no idea, although we did have a Hustler crew member a bunch of years ago that we called swabbie. Could be him

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5 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Is swabbie a expo socke?

It is definitely not me 

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16 hours ago, Swabbie said:

Does phrf factor in cheaters and their cheater ways?

Only if they are presented the true picture of the modifications

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On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 9:55 PM, Hershey said:

Excuse me;  My PHRF certificate based on YRALIS only has 2 sets of numbers.  Spinnaker and non spinnaker ratings.

 

AS far as my mental masturbation.  Those are all based on PHRF formulas.

 

Hershey

 

No distance racing number?

The failure of your premise L. is that you somehow think ratings are derived only AFTER current effects are removed or cleansed from the process. They are not and can not be. Back in the old MHS days there was a number introduced call "random circular" as apart of those certificates. While that was a derived number, PHRF is in effect based on a random circular view of yacht performance. Years ago WLIS PHRF realized that results varied from W/L and Distance and tried to make accommodations in ratings to reflect this and introduced a distance rating and a W/L rating.

 

Now if you spent half as much time working on your sailing skills and boat prep, as you do on jerking off trying to prove an unprovable, I'd suspect you wouldn't remain an also ran..... or maybe you would.

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4 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Are you sure? I mean maybe you are still having those schizophrenia episodes.

I thouht he stopte halving thoise when he putte the seatte backe on hisse bicke.                    :)

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You say that as if he sees that as a positive development.

 

Quick poll.

Who is Swabbie?

Select 1 if you think it is Expo.

Select 2 if you think it is Left Hook.

Select 3 if you think it is BTBOTFA.

Select 4 if you think it is Dacapo.

Select 5 if you think it is Crush Digital.

Select 6 if you think it is Number 6.

Select 7 if you think it is Sandy Vagina.

Select 8 if you think it is none of the above.

Select 9 if you think it is all of the above.

Select 10 to repeat these options.

Or select "0" to be connected with the next available representative.

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My goodness Bill, I never realized you were such a snowflake. If outing someone is suggesting they may have used one of 6 or more "anonymous" screen names in the past is outing them, you need to get both a gripe and a clue.

 

NOTE; It should not be assumed or construed that using the phrase "anonymous" in any way trying to suggest the alternative identity of any user. The names have been changed to protect the innocent.

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1 hour ago, BillDBastard said:

No distance racing number?

The failure of your premise L. is that you somehow think ratings are derived only AFTER current effects are removed or cleansed from the process. They are not and can not be. Back in the old MHS days there was a number introduced call "random circular" as apart of those certificates. While that was a derived number, PHRF is in effect based on a random circular view of yacht performance. Years ago WLIS PHRF realized that results varied from W/L and Distance and tried to make accommodations in ratings to reflect this and introduced a distance rating and a W/L rating.

 

Now if you spent half as much time working on your sailing skills and boat prep, as you do on jerking off trying to prove an unprovable, I'd suspect you wouldn't remain an also ran..... or maybe you would.

 

 

My friend.  My belief is that PHRF #'s are based on W/L 10 kts wind and a no-current.  No where did I state otherwise.

What I do state is

1) that current has a major influence on how well PHRF works.    Current cannot be worked into the PHRF#'s

2) Close PHRF splits negate any problems created by current.  

3) Racing a 22 ft 222 PHRF boat against a 35.5 ft 127 PHRF in a high current area -- is a guaranteed drubbing of the 22 ft. boat no matter how great the skipper  of the 22 ft. boat, or how lousy the skipper of the 35.5 ft. boat is.

*******************************************************************************************************

10 mile "race   5 miles between buoys.

3600/(550+180) = 4.93kts     3600/(550+120) = 5.37kts
PHRF difference  of 1 minute/mile.
10 ktm / 4.93 kts = 2.03 hrs.  1  0 ktm/ 5.37 kts = 1.86 hrs.
2.03-1.86= .17 hrs.
.17hr.  X 60 minutes/hr = 10.2 minutes.
Had I carried the decimal places out further, the time difference would approach 10.0000 minutes.
Do you think this happens by accident?

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Hershey said:

 

 

My friend.  My belief is that PHRF #'s are based on W/L 10 kts wind and a no-current.  No where did I state otherwise.

What I do state is

1) that current has a major influence on how well PHRF works.    Current cannot be worked into the PHRF#'s

2) Close PHRF splits negate any problems created by current.  

3) Racing a 22 ft 222 PHRF boat against a 35.5 ft 127 PHRF in a high current area -- is a guaranteed drubbing of the 22 ft. boat no matter how great the skipper  of the 22 ft. boat, or how lousy the skipper of the 35.5 ft. boat is.

*******************************************************************************************************

10 mile "race   5 miles between buoys.

3600/(550+180) = 4.93kts     3600/(550+120) = 5.37kts
PHRF difference  of 1 minute/mile.
10 ktm / 4.93 kts = 2.03 hrs.  1  0 ktm/ 5.37 kts = 1.86 hrs.
2.03-1.86= .17 hrs.
.17hr.  X 60 minutes/hr = 10.2 minutes.
Had I carried the decimal places out further, the time difference would approach 10.0000 minutes.
Do you think this happens by accident?

 

 

 

 

First off you stated exactly what I paraphrased.

Second, there are few who do not understand that PRF ratings are skewed against the entire spectrum. Has nothing to do with current. Boats that rate 0, relative to boats that rate 100, are favored by 10% or greater as a general rule. Identifying this is pretty easy, correcting it a whole other subject.

Third, far more relevant than current is wind speed at surface compared to 100 feet above surface, and weather systems in longer events.

Finally, just as it may be possible for faster rated boats to benefit from strong current, the same is also true at other times that slower boats can also favor same.

The fact that you have this disconnect in logic is far more noteworthy than any perceive discrepancies. Now go whine at GS some more about how your rating is soooooo unfair.

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BillDBastard        Not wining --- I'm relatively happy with my number 222 and the boats I sail against weekly.  But I no longer will pay to race a regatta where I will be pitted against a 36' 127 PHRF.  

It is PHRF that is wining about membership and participation going down :-)

 

Hershey

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I don't know if your region uses different Time-on-Time formulas, but we do up here on Lake Champlain. Here is text from an update we posted:

LCYC has reviewed our implementation of the PHRF time-on-time formula this year after questions were raised by competitors. The PHRF time-on-time formula allows for localization via two “indexes”, set for each of three wind/course conditions: light wind or sailing mostly downwind, heavy wind or sailing mostly to windward, or someplace in the middle.
 
US Sailing suggests certain values for the “B” index. (The larger the B index, the less attention is paid to phrf differences).

600 Light
550 Medium
480 Strong

 

At LCYC we use the "average windspeed for the duration of the race" as the sole factor to decide which bracket we use for each race. Our brackets are:
 
<10, 10-15, >15.

Years past we have used the following B index values:

 

650, 550, 480.

This year, after review, we intend to adopt the US Sailing recommended values
 
600, 550, 480.

The formula also allows setting an “A” index. This value does not affect the finish order on corrected time. It merely “centers” the correction factor on the boats in the middle of the fleet. So faster boats have corrected time greater than elapsed time, and slower boats have corrected time less than elapsed time. For this to be true one needs to set the “A” index to the “B” index value + the middle of the fleet PHRF. For LCYC that is a PHRF of 120, so for A index values we intend to use 720, 670, 600.

LCYC intends to use:

 

Wind:      <10  10-15    >15 
A Index    720    670    600
B Index    600    550    480

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Maybe Sailman 

On 8/4/2017 at 1:32 PM, Streetwise said:

I don't know if your region uses different Time-on-Time formulas, but we do up here on Lake Champlain. Here is text from an update we posted:

LCYC has reviewed our implementation of the PHRF time-on-time formula this year after questions were raised by competitors. The PHRF time-on-time formula allows for localization via two “indexes”, set for each of three wind/course conditions: light wind or sailing mostly downwind, heavy wind or sailing mostly to windward, or someplace in the middle.
 
US Sailing suggests certain values for the “B” index. (The larger the B index, the less attention is paid to phrf differences).

600 Light
550 Medium
480 Strong

 

At LCYC we use the "average windspeed for the duration of the race" as the sole factor to decide which bracket we use for each race. Our brackets are:
 
<10, 10-15, >15.

Years past we have used the following B index values:

 

650, 550, 480.

This year, after review, we intend to adopt the US Sailing recommended values
 
600, 550, 480.

The formula also allows setting an “A” index. This value does not affect the finish order on corrected time. It merely “centers” the correction factor on the boats in the middle of the fleet. So faster boats have corrected time greater than elapsed time, and slower boats have corrected time less than elapsed time. For this to be true one needs to set the “A” index to the “B” index value + the middle of the fleet PHRF. For LCYC that is a PHRF of 120, so for A index values we intend to use 720, 670, 600.

LCYC intends to use:

 

Wind:      <10  10-15    >15 
A Index    720    670    600
B Index    600    550    480

Maybe Sailman can pontificate on the above.;)

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How the ratings are derived/assigned, and the effect of a given rating in varying conditions are separate issues. 

We rate 174 in YRA NORCAL PHRF with a 40' boat, 20,000 lb 29' waterline, high wetted surface, wide shroud base, low aspect etc. 

Sailing out in the bay, with/without currents if we have > 10 kts of wind we can be competitive with fin keel <5000 lb 25' boats. 

Sailing in less than 5kts TWS we get generally get crushed, especially if there's current, and we are on the Estuary with <200 yard width.
We sail under both TOD and TOT.

Generally the conditions and number of bad decisions are more far more significant than the scoring algorithm. 

Could expend energy bitching, or just go out and sail. 

 

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This was a very important change for our distance events, not just using the wind speed from the start or finish, but taking the average. It did affect results in what we considered a positive way.

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