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deathroll22

2017 Heineken Results - Offshore Multihulls

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1 Fujin (Bieker 53) 1/1/4/1

2 R-Six (HH66) 2/2/1/2

3 Dominator (Outremer 5X-race) 3/3/3/4

4 Flow (Gunboat 60) 4/dns/2/3

5 Arethusa (Gunboat 60) 5/4/5/5

6 Momentum (Gunboat 60) 6/ret/dns/dnc

 

 

 

 

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Fujin's 4 stemmed from an issue with a halyard lock or trip line, they ended up sailing half a mile past the leeward mark.

 

I assume they were winning that race before the problem.

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Not interested in the ratings but was watching this closely. Very interesting results in the offshore multis across a range of races from my perspective.

 

1.) Fujin (the Bieker) seems clearly the fastest boat for boat against Gunboats, HH, and Outremers. Better crew or better design I know not which, but they absolutely crushed the all comers on elapsed time usually by a not insignificant margin. Wow.

 

2.) I am not going to care about chump change (ie few minutes/%) and so in general the Gunboats, HH, and Outremer were all pretty similar on elapsed time. Not surprised the GB and HH were similar but hats off to Outremer! Be interesting to see just how that 5X is kitted out if it was a completely stripped out racing yacht all pro-ed up.

 

I walk away thinking that between GB, HH and Outremer one should pick what style is best for you, which best suits your wallet, and who you think will best stand behind what they sell.... but that performance is not a huge differentiating factor (between the group... certainly is relative to the average condomaran).

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The Outremer was the real surprise.

What was the surprise?

Last year in the C600, a fully turbo'd 5x with Thomas Coville aboard couldn't beat a stock Gunboat 62, so the conclusion was that in the best case a 5x is "slow". But this weekend, a stock 5x beat the HH on the water. That's shocking in my opinion. A $1.2m boat against a $4m+ boat, one gelcoat/vinyl ester, the other all carbon/epoxy, both with daggerboards. (On a related note, the ARC results this year also made me rethink the conclusions on the 5x. Knut Frostad crushed the multihull fleet and did AMAZING boat for boat against a much larger 78' cat).

 

I sailed on Fujin, and though the boat is very well sailed, I'd argue that the Outremer outperformed the rest of the fleet (at least relative to expectations).

 

I was also pleasantly surprised by Flow. The new rig and the efforts to get her light really paid off. She flew a hull most of the beats and could almost hang on to the HH (centerboard vs daggerboard) upwind. On a reach/run she walked. It's incredibly well sailed and prepared and it showed. If not for a hydraulic issue on day two (resulting in a DNS) she would've/should've been on the podium.

 

I'd argue that Dominator, FLOW, and Fujin were equally deserving of first.

 

As for ratings...for me it's chasing rainbows. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Spending a bunch of money to make a different 2/3rd of the fleet unhappy seems like a waste of effort. Luckily, I don't have a dog in the fight, though, so it's moot.

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Congratulation to team Fujin! Nicely done. Great to see the locally built boat (Gold Coast Yachts, St. Croix) take top honors!

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The Outremer was the real surprise.

What was the surprise?

Last year in the C600, a fully turbo'd 5x with Thomas Coville aboard couldn't beat a stock Gunboat 62, so the conclusion was that in the best case a 5x is "slow". But this weekend, a stock 5x beat the HH on the water. That's shocking in my opinion. A $1.2m boat against a $4m+ boat, one gelcoat/vinyl ester, the other all carbon/epoxy, both with daggerboards. (On a related note, the ARC results this year also made me rethink the conclusions on the 5x. Knut Frostad crushed the multihull fleet and did AMAZING boat for boat against a much larger 78' cat).

 

I sailed on Fujin, and though the boat is very well sailed, I'd argue that the Outremer outperformed the rest of the fleet (at least relative to expectations).

 

I was also pleasantly surprised by Flow. The new rig and the efforts to get her light really paid off. She flew a hull most of the beats and could almost hang on to the HH (centerboard vs daggerboard) upwind. On a reach/run she walked. It's incredibly well sailed and prepared and it showed. If not for a hydraulic issue on day two (resulting in a DNS) she would've/should've been on the podium.

 

I'd argue that Dominator, FLOW, and Fujin were equally deserving of first.

 

As for ratings...for me it's chasing rainbows. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Spending a bunch of money to make a different 2/3rd of the fleet unhappy seems like a waste of effort. Luckily, I don't have a dog in the fight, though, so it's moot.

 

Thanks,

 

I always assumed the outremer was a very good sailing cat.

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Congratulation to team Fujin! Nicely done. Great to see the locally built boat (Gold Coast Yachts, St. Croix) take top honors!

FULL credit to Gold Coast on the build. That boat is really well built and light. They've have had no major complaints. Fujin clocked 30+ knots this weekend, yet wrapped up the weekend with no breakages or issues.

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Glad to hear there is a move afoot to begin OMA = Offshore Multihull Associaton for the likes of Gunboat, HH Catamarans owners and other similar designs to work together for regattas and ratings.

 

As for ratings, apart from one design racing, there always is controversy and rating complaints when someone loses. What else is new? Good sportsmanship on and off the race course should recognize and congratulate podium finishing teams. R Six owner had never raced before the Multihulls Cup 2016 in Europe last year, so kudos to him and HH66 for their first place finish. He did not need a rating adjustment for lack of skipper experience.

 

GB was a leader for sure in creating an exciting class and good to see the GB owners are not parochial in their mindset by excluding comparable alternatives in future events, racing and regattas. This exemplifies the spirit of yachting and yacht racing to be inclusive and encourage the sport. Healthy competition is always a positive dynamic in business and sports where the number one benefactor is the consumer.

 

The remainder of Caribbean race circuit will continue to be exciting for this growing class of performance, luxury catamarans no matter who complains about winning ratings. Win, lose or draw, here is to both GB and HH66 owners as they enjoy fun competitive racing.

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Next up is the BVI regatta, yes? Wide range of boats there but no Fujin AFAIK. Will be interesting to see how Extreme H2O goes against the rest of the GBs.

 

Oh and yes, Soma that Outremer 5X destroyed the ARC. Like half the time of many others in the multihull class if I recall correctly but maybe not many treated it as a race as much as a rally??

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Next up is the BVI regatta, yes? Wide range of boats there but no Fujin AFAIK. Will be interesting to see how Extreme H2O goes against the rest of the GBs.

 

Oh and yes, Soma that Outremer 5X destroyed the ARC. Like half the time of many others in the multihull class if I recall correctly but maybe not many treated it as a race as much as a rally??

Next up is St. Thomas (formerly Rolex). BVI Spring Regatta will be the real show, though, with Elvis (GB62) vs Extreme (GB66) vs Flow (GB60) vs Nala (HH6603). That's the "most" turbo'd version of each platform, so a good indicator of what each platform is capable of. The only boat missing is VaiVai, the turbo'd Gunboat 57.

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Ah, thanks Soma. I forgot the Rolex/St Thomas.

 

Whatever happened to the G4 (and/or the F4s). Are they ever coming out to play again?

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What did they do to that poor 5X to make it go that fast?! :huh:

 

The sad truth is that all of these ‘performance’ cats suck at racing.

If you build a pure ~60ft racing multi, it will go twice as fast, at half the price…

So the competition is essentially: “Who can make (or configure) his the most un-cruisable.”

Very strange.

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What did they do to that poor 5X to make it go that fast?! :huh:

 

The sad truth is that all of these ‘performance’ cats suck at racing.

If you build a pure ~60ft racing multi, it will go twice as fast, at half the price…

So the competition is essentially: “Who can make (or configure) his the most un-cruisable.”

Very strange.

 

Very strange...

 

Strip out some luxury features, get a taller mast & fatter fathead so you fly a hull in 9kts, and you might as well have bought a much cheaper racing cat

 

Nothing should take away from Fujin's results - she also did really well in the Vineyard race thanks to tactics, and was doing really well in C600 till she had to drop

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What did they do to that poor 5X to make it go that fast?! :huh:

 

The sad truth is that all of these ‘performance’ cats suck at racing.

If you build a pure ~60ft racing multi, it will go twice as fast, at half the price…

So the competition is essentially: “Who can make (or configure) his the most un-cruisable.”

Very strange.

 

Very strange...

 

Strip out some luxury features, get a taller mast & fatter fathead so you fly a hull in 9kts, and you might as well have bought a much cheaper racing cat

 

Nothing should take away from Fujin's results - she also did really well in the Vineyard race thanks to tactics, and was doing really well in C600 till she had to drop

 

Given he owns one (a 5X) I assume it was intended with a large dose of sarcasm. Either that or he really hates wide band rating racing (fair enough) and loves OD and/or cruising, LOL.

 

I'm a fan of racing and cruising furniture 30s, and 40s... mono or multi, so long as they are OD. :P

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We had an awesome time on Fujin this week. She rips when the wind blows. Had a bit of a cluster in race 3 which meant we had to beat the HH in race 4.

 

In under 14 knots, our boat speed is much closer to the Gunboats (and probably HH and Outremer) so we don't expect to consistently out pace them.

 

Extreme H2O was in St Martin but not racing. That would have been interesting.

 

The second fastest multi out there was Morticia, the Sea Cart 30 from Australia in Multihull 1. After a downwind start in Commodore Cup, we were over early and had to go back and it took a few miles to catch Morticia and then it was a ripping drag race with them on the reaching leg to Blowing Rock with winds in high teens, low 20s. Boat speeds 20-25. They're good sailors and the Sea Cart is impressive. Pretty sure Morticia would beat us in lighter winds.

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Yes, one could purchase an AC45 and foil at 7.5 kts at 120 degrees....might be a bit wet for Mrs Admiral. How much are they?

 

This genre of GB and HH catamarans do many things very well with cruising amenities to satisfy some of the market they were designed for. Hence, like every yacht ever designed, they are a function of balance, functionality and compromise. Very strange?

 

As the late great Olin Stephens was fond of saying, " In all phases of my work I was conscious of the need for balance, and I did my best to find balance in both the long and the short view. Broadly I think I can say that I applied the principles of balance in design, in business and in the pleasures I enjoyed."

 

I cannot speak for Morrelli & Melvin per se, but "balance" appears to be nicely incorporated in many of their GB and HH designs, just ask many of their proud owners.

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Given he owns one (a 5X) I assume it was intended with a large dose of sarcasm. Either that or he really hates wide band rating racing (fair enough) and loves OD and/or cruising, LOL.

 

Performance cats are very, very awesome for cruising. :wub:

But its absurd to race while dragging along toilets, plumbing, fridges, blackwater tanks, a saloon and hulls twice as wide as necessary.

For real racing it has to be smallish and OD. Unleaded, whenever possible.

 

Still; I would love to know how they made that 5X go that fast!

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What did they do to that poor 5X to make it go that fast?! :huh:

 

The sad truth is that all of these ‘performance’ cats suck at racing.

If you build a pure ~60ft racing multi, it will go twice as fast, at half the price…

So the competition is essentially: “Who can make (or configure) his the most un-cruisable.”

Very strange.

 

Very strange...

 

Strip out some luxury features, get a taller mast & fatter fathead so you fly a hull in 9kts, and you might as well have bought a much cheaper racing cat

 

Nothing should take away from Fujin's results - she also did really well in the Vineyard race thanks to tactics, and was doing really well in C600 till she had to drop

 

Given he owns one (a 5X) I assume it was intended with a large dose of sarcasm. Either that or he really hates wide band rating racing (fair enough) and loves OD and/or cruising, LOL.

 

I'm a fan of racing and cruising furniture 30s, and 40s... mono or multi, so long as they are OD. :P

 

 

 

I was not referring to the Outremer 5x - but rather this niche's partial insanity in general

 

If it's all about raw speed (and diss the ratings on SA if you are not happy with your pick's results) then the logical end is just as mentioned above, everyone should convert their boats into stripped down, tall masted racers. I love the 5X-race because it opens up a cost-smart way to get more boats on the starting line and will bring in a lot of really good sailors. So may the new Outremer 45 do that also

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A few things...

 

*Fujin is an entirely different beast from the rest of the class. Primarily, she's about 10 tons lighter than the lightest GB, and something like 18 tons lighter than the HH... Fujin to me is much closer to a true racing multi than 'what the rest of the world' considers an offshore/luxury/cruising multi. That said, they cruise and sail that thing offshore and big props to them - very cool boat, very well sailed, and they deserve the trophy and then some - so no hate here at all, just saying, when you get past by that thing upwind (from a GB60) at nearly double your own boat speed, you realize that it would be silly to try and gauge your performance against their mark. I think it is equally as silly to try to handicap that machine with a GB, HH, or Ourtremer. Its like trying to rate a Swan 60 against an IMOCA 60.

 

*Soma is right that the Outremer is an impressive boat for roughly a third of the price of the larger cats. She stuck on our hip boat-for-boat every race, and corrected out on top of us each time. I will point out that it was a very heavy weather regatta, and she likely benefitted from a smaller rig & sail plan vs the GB's who required a reef some days, but still, props to them for sailing well and keeping the pressure on us on the water.

 

*The HH was a monster upwind - walking over the entire fleet every windward leg (except Fujin) - but a total dog downwind. Word is that the next one (hull#3) is a different beast from this first one, and that 'dog' will not be among the adjectives that describe her on any point of sail. Very curious to see how she goes.

 

*The most interesting matchup of the regatta for me was the two GB60's. Flow has gone a bit further than Arethusa in the way of turbo'ing the boat (larger & lighter mainsail, primarily), but is still very much a comfortable/luxury cruising cat, and absolutely walked away from Arethusa on every leg. Both boats were well sailed without any major fuckups, slow-downs, or penalties. While it could be argued that Arethusa has fewer miles on the course and is further back along the learning curve with performance multi racing, the gap between the boats was surprising and impressive. Props to Flow for pushing the boat hard and showing everyone what's capable on a 60 (or any of the NID boats). Hoping to see them, and eventually Arethusa, give the HH's and faster 62's a good fight in the future.

 

As far as ratings go - I think the new attempt is neccessary, well-intended, and properly backed. The leaders of the OA are going about it in the right way and spending the neccessary time, money, and effort on the algorithm. The behind the scenes meeting of the minds was impressive and eye-opening. The idea is to end this old argument (see above!!) about cruising vs racing multis. It is a fair argument to say that it is silly to go 'so far' with turboing a boat but not actually go all the way to 'fully stripped race boat'. Most of the owners know that and agree. BUT they bought a fast boat because fast is fun, and the racing scene is addictive and competitive, and they want to have a chance against the other boats in the class, so an arms race is inevitable. If the new system works as it is supposed to, the owners who wish to live comfortably aboard their cruising boats for regattas (no stripping weight) will be able to compete fairly against the owners who DO go all the way towards full race boat. In that way, you can make the fast/cruising cat class whatever the hell you want to suit your preferences! To the naysayers who grumble that it is absurd to race around with an interior - look the hell around!! How many boats would be on the line at ANY of the Caribbean regattas if only dedicated racers were allowed? And how many sailors would get to experience racing? And learn to sail their boat better/faster? Get real guys!

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What did they do to that poor 5X to make it go that fast?! :huh:

 

So the competition is essentially: Who can make (or configure) his the most un-cruisable.

Very strange.

Rumor has it, the only thing in their cutlery drawer was a bottle opener...carbon fiber non the less.

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A few things...

 

*Fujin is an entirely different beast from the rest of the class. Primarily, she's about 10 tons lighter than the lightest GB, and something like 18 tons lighter than the HH... Fujin to me is much closer to a true racing multi than 'what the rest of the world' considers an offshore/luxury/cruising multi. That said, they cruise and sail that thing offshore and big props to them - very cool boat, very well sailed, and they deserve the trophy and then some - so no hate here at all, just saying, when you get past by that thing upwind (from a GB60) at nearly double your own boat speed, you realize that it would be silly to try and gauge your performance against their mark. I think it is equally as silly to try to handicap that machine with a GB, HH, or Ourtremer. Its like trying to rate a Swan 60 against an IMOCA 60.

 

*Soma is right that the Outremer is an impressive boat for roughly a third of the price of the larger cats. She stuck on our hip boat-for-boat every race, and corrected out on top of us each time. I will point out that it was a very heavy weather regatta, and she likely benefitted from a smaller rig & sail plan vs the GB's who required a reef some days, but still, props to them for sailing well and keeping the pressure on us on the water.

 

*The HH was a monster upwind - walking over the entire fleet every windward leg (except Fujin) - but a total dog downwind. Word is that the next one (hull#3) is a different beast from this first one, and that 'dog' will not be among the adjectives that describe her on any point of sail. Very curious to see how she goes.

 

*The most interesting matchup of the regatta for me was the two GB60's. Flow has gone a bit further than Arethusa in the way of turbo'ing the boat (larger & lighter mainsail, primarily), but is still very much a comfortable/luxury cruising cat, and absolutely walked away from Arethusa on every leg. Both boats were well sailed without any major fuckups, slow-downs, or penalties. While it could be argued that Arethusa has fewer miles on the course and is further back along the learning curve with performance multi racing, the gap between the boats was surprising and impressive. Props to Flow for pushing the boat hard and showing everyone what's capable on a 60 (or any of the NID boats). Hoping to see them, and eventually Arethusa, give the HH's and faster 62's a good fight in the future.

 

As far as ratings go - I think the new attempt is neccessary, well-intended, and properly backed. The leaders of the OA are going about it in the right way and spending the neccessary time, money, and effort on the algorithm. The behind the scenes meeting of the minds was impressive and eye-opening. The idea is to end this old argument (see above!!) about cruising vs racing multis. It is a fair argument to say that it is silly to go 'so far' with turboing a boat but not actually go all the way to 'fully stripped race boat'. Most of the owners know that and agree. BUT they bought a fast boat because fast is fun, and the racing scene is addictive and competitive, and they want to have a chance against the other boats in the class, so an arms race is inevitable. If the new system works as it is supposed to, the owners who wish to live comfortably aboard their cruising boats for regattas (no stripping weight) will be able to compete fairly against the owners who DO go all the way towards full race boat. In that way, you can make the fast/cruising cat class whatever the hell you want to suit your preferences! To the naysayers who grumble that it is absurd to race around with an interior - look the hell around!! How many boats would be on the line at ANY of the Caribbean regattas if only dedicated racers were allowed? And how many sailors would get to experience racing? And learn to sail their boat better/faster? Get real guys!

 

 

 

The new ratings system...

 

The new ratings system (picked unanimously by the owners) uses polars (not single point) and, what is radical (and the reasons the OA is backing it so strongly) is that for a given boat it starts with VPP derived polars, then as race days occur those polars are refined based on sampling from the boats own instruments taking the fastest few data points on any TWA/TWS to derive and perfect, over time, the boat's "empirical polars".

 

Each boat will essentially be racing against its own, actual (not theoretical) "potential speeds" and the crew than can keep their boat near its potential speeds most consistently will win on corrected time. Also there is a sophisticated "archimedes system" for measuring (and spot checking) a boats actual weight at a regatta, which means that the owner who does not want to strip his boat for an event will be treated fairly.

 

So you can have 2 GB 60's, one turbo'd and one stock, and they can both have fun competing against each other and may the best crew win

 

It will also make racing between different brands of boats fun, and maybe even keep the marketing vitriol to a minimum

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Nice, earlier post regarding Fujin, well done. She looks fast and fun with a reasonable interior main salon to boot. As stated, a different beast from HH and GBs. Anyone know how much she costs?

 

Not sure what the real values are, but official lightships spec on Fujin is around 13,000 pounds, and HH66 is around 37,000? If those numbers are close then Fujin is about 11 tons lighter than HH66. Either way, NALA, HH66#3 is at least a ton if not more lighter than HH66#1 or so we have heard and more sail area, so it will be interesting to see her have a go in St. Thomas. An arms race is often par for the course in this business and as long as the owners are having fun; good for them. The new ratings system sounds good for the fleet until someone finds that secret sauce.

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Not sure what the real values are, but official lightships spec on Fujin is around 13,000 pounds, and HH66 is around 37,000? If those numbers are close then Fujin is about 11 tons lighter than HH66.

HH6601 is closer to 46,000 lbs...so definitely a different boat than Fujin.

 

As far as what they did to the 5x? Nothing. They put the bow down and sailed it. It's essentially stock. The mast, most of the sails, winches, deck hardware, boards, etc are all as purchased.

 

As far as the logic of turbo'ing these performance cats, I don't see anything terribly wrong with it. Sure, it's paradoxical to have teak soles and carbon toilets, but they're a helluva lot of fun. Elvis/Extreme/Fujin are Volvo 70 fast, but have a primary life of being a great cruising platform...far better than a Swan 100. Why ANYONE would spend $15m for a deep draft, slow leaner is beyond me. And why anyone would buy a one-trick pony like a Volvo 70 is beyond me. (Well, a V70 IS a pretty sexy boat, but I definitely wouldn't want to cruise one, or hire the 15 pros to get it around the track).

 

Maybe the ultimate option is a MOD70 and a Riva, but if you want to have your cake and eat it, too, with one platform, then a performance cat is the only choice.

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I'd argue that Paradox is a pretty good option for those who want the best of both worlds, but the market has said otherwise, or their would be more!?!?

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I'd argue that Paradox is a pretty good option for those who want the best of both worlds, but the market has said otherwise, or their would be more!?!?

 

It will be interesting to see how many Rapidos sell as they are positioned right in between the performance cat and something like Paradox (both in terms of comfort and, one would expect, performance).

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I'd argue that Paradox is a pretty good option for those who want the best of both worlds, but the market has said otherwise, or their would be more!?!?

It will be interesting to see how many Rapidos sell as they are positioned right in between the performance cat and something like Paradox (both in terms of comfort and, one would expect, performance).

Both good points. I think Paradox is the bee's knees, and I'm amazed someone hasn't snatched it up yet. I haven't sailed on her since the board refit but she was an absolute weapon beforehand. She's only faster and better now. A boat like Paradox would've effortlessly CRUSHED the fleet at Heineken.

 

The Rapido is a cool boat, too. Paul seems like a great guy and Pete Melvin knows plenty about fast boats. I haven't heard much out of Vietnam regarding that project, though. I'd heard that there were going to be two Rapidos in the Caribbean this year, but when I checked AIS hull #1 was still in Thailand and I haven't seen or heard anything about a hull #2. (That's not to say there isn't one, just that I haven't seen anything on FB about it).

 

Talking to the owners and crew here this week, I think everyone enjoyed the mixed fleet racing. The ratings will get "smarter", too, as time goes on. Like we saw at the Multihull Cup last summer, this market segment is burgeoning and the racing will only get better and better. It's a big table and there's room for plenty.

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I'd argue that Paradox is a pretty good option for those who want the best of both worlds, but the market has said otherwise, or their would be more!?!?

It will be interesting to see how many Rapidos sell as they are positioned right in between the performance cat and something like Paradox (both in terms of comfort and, one would expect, performance).

Both good points. I think Paradox is the bee's knees, and I'm amazed someone hasn't snatched it up yet. I haven't sailed on her since the board refit but she was an absolute weapon beforehand. She's only faster and better now. A boat like Paradox would've effortlessly CRUSHED the fleet at Heineken.

 

The Rapido is a cool boat, too. Paul seems like a great guy and Pete Melvin knows plenty about fast boats. I haven't heard much out of Vietnam regarding that project, though. I'd heard that there were going to be two Rapidos in the Caribbean this year, but when I checked AIS hull #1 was still in Thailand and I haven't seen or heard anything about a hull #2. (That's not to say there isn't one, just that I haven't seen anything on FB about it).

 

Talking to the owners and crew here this week, I think everyone enjoyed the mixed fleet racing. The ratings will get "smarter", too, as time goes on. Like we saw at the Multihull Cup last summer, this market segment is burgeoning and the racing will only get better and better. It's a big table and there's room for plenty.

 

Unfortunately due to the pressures of work ( we build a lot of Train interiors as well as boats ) we did not manage to get the time to get Rapido 1 to the Caribbean this year !

 

For similar reasons ( owners very busy with their business ) Rapido Hull 2 which is getting close to completion , is going to New Zealand and should be sailing in Auckland sometime in May this year !

 

We would have loved to have been in a few of these Regatta's to stir things up and convince a few doubters that a Trimaran can be a viable cruising boat without sacrificing performance !

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Where can I read more about the new "Multi-Rule" ratings system? Google did not help (yet).

Excellent progress to use real polars, but where is TWS and TWA for each race taken from? Also from the individual boats (averaged?) or from weather stations?

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A few things...

 

*Fujin is an entirely different beast from the rest of the class. Primarily, she's about 10 tons lighter than the lightest GB, and something like 18 tons lighter than the HH... Fujin to me is much closer to a true racing multi than 'what the rest of the world' considers an offshore/luxury/cruising multi. That said, they cruise and sail that thing offshore and big props to them - very cool boat, very well sailed, and they deserve the trophy and then some - so no hate here at all, just saying, when you get past by that thing upwind (from a GB60) at nearly double your own boat speed, you realize that it would be silly to try and gauge your performance against their mark. I think it is equally as silly to try to handicap that machine with a GB, HH, or Ourtremer. Its like trying to rate a Swan 60 against an IMOCA 60.

 

*Soma is right that the Outremer is an impressive boat for roughly a third of the price of the larger cats. She stuck on our hip boat-for-boat every race, and corrected out on top of us each time. I will point out that it was a very heavy weather regatta, and she likely benefitted from a smaller rig & sail plan vs the GB's who required a reef some days, but still, props to them for sailing well and keeping the pressure on us on the water.

 

*The HH was a monster upwind - walking over the entire fleet every windward leg (except Fujin) - but a total dog downwind. Word is that the next one (hull#3) is a different beast from this first one, and that 'dog' will not be among the adjectives that describe her on any point of sail. Very curious to see how she goes.

 

*The most interesting matchup of the regatta for me was the two GB60's. Flow has gone a bit further than Arethusa in the way of turbo'ing the boat (larger & lighter mainsail, primarily), but is still very much a comfortable/luxury cruising cat, and absolutely walked away from Arethusa on every leg. Both boats were well sailed without any major fuckups, slow-downs, or penalties. While it could be argued that Arethusa has fewer miles on the course and is further back along the learning curve with performance multi racing, the gap between the boats was surprising and impressive. Props to Flow for pushing the boat hard and showing everyone what's capable on a 60 (or any of the NID boats). Hoping to see them, and eventually Arethusa, give the HH's and faster 62's a good fight in the future.

 

As far as ratings go - I think the new attempt is neccessary, well-intended, and properly backed. The leaders of the OA are going about it in the right way and spending the neccessary time, money, and effort on the algorithm. The behind the scenes meeting of the minds was impressive and eye-opening. The idea is to end this old argument (see above!!) about cruising vs racing multis. It is a fair argument to say that it is silly to go 'so far' with turboing a boat but not actually go all the way to 'fully stripped race boat'. Most of the owners know that and agree. BUT they bought a fast boat because fast is fun, and the racing scene is addictive and competitive, and they want to have a chance against the other boats in the class, so an arms race is inevitable. If the new system works as it is supposed to, the owners who wish to live comfortably aboard their cruising boats for regattas (no stripping weight) will be able to compete fairly against the owners who DO go all the way towards full race boat. In that way, you can make the fast/cruising cat class whatever the hell you want to suit your preferences! To the naysayers who grumble that it is absurd to race around with an interior - look the hell around!! How many boats would be on the line at ANY of the Caribbean regattas if only dedicated racers were allowed? And how many sailors would get to experience racing? And learn to sail their boat better/faster? Get real guys!

 

 

 

The new ratings system...

 

The new ratings system (picked unanimously by the owners) uses polars (not single point) and, what is radical (and the reasons the OA is backing it so strongly) is that for a given boat it starts with VPP derived polars, then as race days occur those polars are refined based on sampling from the boats own instruments taking the fastest few data points on any TWA/TWS to derive and perfect, over time, the boat's "empirical polars".

 

Each boat will essentially be racing against its own, actual (not theoretical) "potential speeds" and the crew than can keep their boat near its potential speeds most consistently will win on corrected time. Also there is a sophisticated "archimedes system" for measuring (and spot checking) a boats actual weight at a regatta, which means that the owner who does not want to strip his boat for an event will be treated fairly.

 

So you can have 2 GB 60's, one turbo'd and one stock, and they can both have fun competing against each other and may the best crew win

 

It will also make racing between different brands of boats fun, and maybe even keep the marketing vitriol to a minimum

 

Very very interested in how the archimedean weight is measured, we are having lots of fun finding a consistent weighing method here in AUS.

Very interested in the empirical polars being used, but if the potential speeds and not theoretical speeds are being used, this is still an arbitrary handicap system?

 

Peter

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I also would like to hear more about the new approach to rating. How broadly applicable is it to multis in general and what information is needed from owners and designers to set a rating before the race as well as (it sounds like) information from the boats during racing? Good Luck! It sounds innovative and a step forward. Thanks for anything you can share.

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A few things...

 

*Fujin is an entirely different beast from the rest of the class. Primarily, she's about 10 tons lighter than the lightest GB, and something like 18 tons lighter than the HH... Fujin to me is much closer to a true racing multi than 'what the rest of the world' considers an offshore/luxury/cruising multi. That said, they cruise and sail that thing offshore and big props to them - very cool boat, very well sailed, and they deserve the trophy and then some - so no hate here at all, just saying, when you get past by that thing upwind (from a GB60) at nearly double your own boat speed, you realize that it would be silly to try and gauge your performance against their mark. I think it is equally as silly to try to handicap that machine with a GB, HH, or Ourtremer. Its like trying to rate a Swan 60 against an IMOCA 60.

 

*Soma is right that the Outremer is an impressive boat for roughly a third of the price of the larger cats. She stuck on our hip boat-for-boat every race, and corrected out on top of us each time. I will point out that it was a very heavy weather regatta, and she likely benefitted from a smaller rig & sail plan vs the GB's who required a reef some days, but still, props to them for sailing well and keeping the pressure on us on the water.

 

*The HH was a monster upwind - walking over the entire fleet every windward leg (except Fujin) - but a total dog downwind. Word is that the next one (hull#3) is a different beast from this first one, and that 'dog' will not be among the adjectives that describe her on any point of sail. Very curious to see how she goes.

 

*The most interesting matchup of the regatta for me was the two GB60's. Flow has gone a bit further than Arethusa in the way of turbo'ing the boat (larger & lighter mainsail, primarily), but is still very much a comfortable/luxury cruising cat, and absolutely walked away from Arethusa on every leg. Both boats were well sailed without any major fuckups, slow-downs, or penalties. While it could be argued that Arethusa has fewer miles on the course and is further back along the learning curve with performance multi racing, the gap between the boats was surprising and impressive. Props to Flow for pushing the boat hard and showing everyone what's capable on a 60 (or any of the NID boats). Hoping to see them, and eventually Arethusa, give the HH's and faster 62's a good fight in the future.

 

As far as ratings go - I think the new attempt is neccessary, well-intended, and properly backed. The leaders of the OA are going about it in the right way and spending the neccessary time, money, and effort on the algorithm. The behind the scenes meeting of the minds was impressive and eye-opening. The idea is to end this old argument (see above!!) about cruising vs racing multis. It is a fair argument to say that it is silly to go 'so far' with turboing a boat but not actually go all the way to 'fully stripped race boat'. Most of the owners know that and agree. BUT they bought a fast boat because fast is fun, and the racing scene is addictive and competitive, and they want to have a chance against the other boats in the class, so an arms race is inevitable. If the new system works as it is supposed to, the owners who wish to live comfortably aboard their cruising boats for regattas (no stripping weight) will be able to compete fairly against the owners who DO go all the way towards full race boat. In that way, you can make the fast/cruising cat class whatever the hell you want to suit your preferences! To the naysayers who grumble that it is absurd to race around with an interior - look the hell around!! How many boats would be on the line at ANY of the Caribbean regattas if only dedicated racers were allowed? And how many sailors would get to experience racing? And learn to sail their boat better/faster? Get real guys!

 

 

 

The new ratings system...

 

The new ratings system (picked unanimously by the owners) uses polars (not single point) and, what is radical (and the reasons the OA is backing it so strongly) is that for a given boat it starts with VPP derived polars, then as race days occur those polars are refined based on sampling from the boats own instruments taking the fastest few data points on any TWA/TWS to derive and perfect, over time, the boat's "empirical polars".

 

Each boat will essentially be racing against its own, actual (not theoretical) "potential speeds" and the crew than can keep their boat near its potential speeds most consistently will win on corrected time. Also there is a sophisticated "archimedes system" for measuring (and spot checking) a boats actual weight at a regatta, which means that the owner who does not want to strip his boat for an event will be treated fairly.

 

So you can have 2 GB 60's, one turbo'd and one stock, and they can both have fun competing against each other and may the best crew win

 

It will also make racing between different brands of boats fun, and maybe even keep the marketing vitriol to a minimum

 

Very very interested in how the archimedean weight is measured, we are having lots of fun finding a consistent weighing method here in AUS.

Very interested in the empirical polars being used, but if the potential speeds and not theoretical speeds are being used, this is still an arbitrary handicap system?

 

Peter

 

 

 

There are some very smart people behind the new PCS/MultiRule. Hopefully one of them will post something somewhere, but till then here are imperfect/rough/approximate answers:

 

Weight:

Weigh a boat on scales, then put boat into the water. Have 4 set screws permanently inset above the waterline on the sides of the hull near each of the 4 corners of the boat. Then load the boat with a lot of water of known weight, and note exactly how much more the boat sank into the water with a device that affixes to the set screws and measures the distance from the set screw to the water, keeping out the affects of marina ripples on the water. Now you have a "delta". Compare that delta with a theoretical "delta" based upon the designer's computer files for the hull design (which they have agreed to share with the raters because it is good for the sport). Hopefully they match. If not, the raters have some calibration work to do. Now at each regatta, you just use that same device and the set screws to note where the boat floats, and you have an accurate weight with which to adjust the boat's polars for that regatta.

 

Potential Speeds (Empirical Polars):

Each second during races instrument data is recorded (using existing navigation software) and data is aggregated into, e.g. 30 second segments and those segments are sorted into groups at each TWS/TWA. Clean the data by excluding any data near changes in wind speeds, tacks, jibes, and other external changes (data cleaning for a class of boats should be done by one leading independent VPP analysis firm). Then average a group of the fastest data points at each TWS/TWA to derive "empirical polars" Then repeat this every race and over the years so as to make the boat's empirical polars more and more accurate over time

 

Hope that helps

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Thanks deathroll22. Not sure I understand the concept of how the polars will be used and adjusted (and how to avoid gaming of Mom/Pop polars vs professional crew polars) but its interesting. Just look at the range of multis in the BVI regatta. Don't know that anyone could ever rate all of them fairly across that group but sure would love to see it happen!

 

And on catching up with the thread...

 

Hey 5X_CH - I hear you on small and OD for racing. My cheapest boat (the Laser) was not the most fun to sail (my multi is) but it sure was the most fun to race by far. This is actually my first year not frostbiting a Laser and I miss it a lot. But after 2 rotator-cuff surgeries and a 3rd that was in the cards it was time to hang it up. Wish cruising multi racing could be more fun and maybe deathroll and his friends are onto something.

 

Sam/Soma/Paul - Re Paradox and cruising tris like Rapido... I am surprised that Soma didn't say this and maybe its that many of these boats are professionally crewed so the owners don't deal w passages but I think tris are missing one key thing. Don't misunderstand; we currently own and sail a tri. We LOVE it for daysailing. But as we look for a boat that retains the fun, responsive, "make us want to go daysailing" capability, and yet adds comfort on extended passage, we don't want a tri and are going back to a cat for one simple reason... a bridgedeck salon with inside helm from which a watch can be stood. No tri has this. And this is not the wife talking. We both (are we really unique in this?) insist on this. Sure we want to be out in the elements when daysailing or racing. We very much want that. But come on. To many deliveries or passages become slogs. Early and late season brings lots of cold and rain (even snow and ice). Coastal stuff can be windless, time constrained motoring monotony. Are we really the only ones that think a bridgedeck salon with inside helm makes such trips MUCH more comfortable and safe with proper protocols? Have done lots and lots of multi sailing both with and without the feature and wife and I both agree that "with" is much better for passage. I have never yet seen a tri that is set-up to provide that capability in its layout. If any did it would have us at hello! The reason we gave up on tris and are looking at cats is because it was the only way to have this capability in a modern fast fun multihull design. If the boat was always delivered by a professional crew to a places where it was magically 68F year round and never rained and it always blew a perfect 15 knots, sure, give us a tri and the heck with a bridgedeck salon and pilothouse. But we like passages with just each other for company, and Maine in the late Fall, and even enjoy rain and extended coastal delivery trips. So...

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Paradox: If I had a spare 1.2 million Euros, I'd have bought the boat long ago. I think it is a real sailors racer/cruiser dream. I suspect that at this price point however, the rather spartan interior may not appeal to the significant other.

 

Bridegdeck salon with inside helm: I won't argue with this one from a comfort standpoint. I don't know any large monohulls that have it however, and I've got over 5,000 miles at sea on monohulls without much protection aft, including a north Atlantic crossing. A proper set of Musto HPX Foulies make life much much better and visibility is higher without that large bridgedeck, though a forward helm is nice for visibility regardless. The only modern tri I know that could be fitted with one rather easily is the Neel range of trimarans. I suspect this requirement would be difficult to satisfy with most any older boat for that matter.

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Thanks deathroll22. Not sure I understand the concept of how the polars will be used and adjusted (and how to avoid gaming of Mom/Pop polars vs professional crew polars) but its interesting. Just look at the range of multis in the BVI regatta. Don't know that anyone could ever rate all of them fairly across that group but sure would love to see it happen!

 

And on catching up with the thread...

 

Hey 5X_CH - I hear you on small and OD for racing. My cheapest boat (the Laser) was not the most fun to sail (my multi is) but it sure was the most fun to race by far. This is actually my first year not frostbiting a Laser and I miss it a lot. But after 2 rotator-cuff surgeries and a 3rd that was in the cards it was time to hang it up. Wish cruising multi racing could be more fun and maybe deathroll and his friends are onto something.

 

Sam/Soma/Paul - Re Paradox and cruising tris like Rapido... I am surprised that Soma didn't say this and maybe its that many of these boats are professionally crewed so the owners don't deal w passages but I think tris are missing one key thing. Don't misunderstand; we currently own and sail a tri. We LOVE it for daysailing. But as we look for a boat that retains the fun, responsive, "make us want to go daysailing" capability, and yet adds comfort on extended passage, we don't want a tri and are going back to a cat for one simple reason... a bridgedeck salon with inside helm from which a watch can be stood. No tri has this. And this is not the wife talking. We both (are we really unique in this?) insist on this. Sure we want to be out in the elements when daysailing or racing. We very much want that. But come on. To many deliveries or passages become slogs. Early and late season brings lots of cold and rain (even snow and ice). Coastal stuff can be windless, time constrained motoring monotony. Are we really the only ones that think a bridgedeck salon with inside helm makes such trips MUCH more comfortable and safe with proper protocols? Have done lots and lots of multi sailing both with and without the feature and wife and I both agree that "with" is much better for passage. I have never yet seen a tri that is set-up to provide that capability in its layout. If any did it would have us at hello! The reason we gave up on tris and are looking at cats is because it was the only way to have this capability in a modern fast fun multihull design. If the boat was always delivered by a professional crew to a places where it was magically 68F year round and never rained and it always blew a perfect 15 knots, sure, give us a tri and the heck with a bridgedeck salon and pilothouse. But we like passages with just each other for company, and Maine in the late Fall, and even enjoy rain and extended coastal delivery trips. So...

Hi Wess ,

 

 

Rapido 60 and the new Rapido 50 have the answer to your dreams !

 

See below images of the new Rapido 50 ! They both have a " Bridgedeck saloon and can have a forward facing Navigation area , office , pilothouse that has great visibility all round the boat and seaworthiness , performance and safety features no cat can offer !

Rapido 50

RT50 Render TILLER STEERING

RT50 Render SWING STEERING WHEEL

RT50 Render 3

RT50 Render 1

RT50 interior3

RT50 interior2

RT50 interior1

 

 

Yes we need to get to some boat shows so you and others can see it and and finally understand and appreciate what a great boat it is !

 

By the way , I day sail and cruise regularly with just my super strong 45 kg crew and believe me it is no hardship at all as the boat is so well set up for short handed cruising !

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Paul,

 

I'm firmly in Wess' camp regarding the absolute requirement for a protected helm station. The 50 looks interesting but it is a case where an inside helm 'can' be put rather than was 'designed to be inside'. I think of the inside helm station on an old production ketch I saw. Yes, thee were a wheel and engine controls but visibility was poor and it wasn't really a watch keeping station.

 

On trimarans, at speed, the spray curls around the aft end of the house/dodger et al (does it on a cat too). Everything is salt encrusted after a few days (hours?). Ultimately, the helm must be 'designed' in rather than squeezed into a corner to try and 'technically' satisfy folks like Wess and I. Gunboat did it. Mainecat does it and by and large (I think it's Dazcat) Something 400, does it.

 

99% of the monohulls have the same issue. Dodgers are 'added on', even hard dodgers and the result, while better than nothing still doesn't come close to really hitting the mark.

 

What I think Wess (and I know I am saying) is Design for it from the start, allocate adequate space for it and THEN put the rest of the accommodations around it. Yes, for a given package, you'll have to be either a bit bigger or sacrifice some 'nightstand' space.... The 50 is 'nice', looks compromised towards the interior, i.e. a touch 'fat'. But I thought the 60 was well done, except for the aforementioned helm/watch keeping issues.

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January. Cold. Comfy. Happy crew!

 

 

post-398-0-50459200-1488972147_thumb.jpg

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I'm firmly in Wess' camp regarding the absolute requirement for a protected helm station.

 

When cruising, you spend 99% on autopilot. Being outside for 1% of the time (plus sail adjustments) is not that tough...

With the autopilot remote, does the saloon's sofa, with a comfy blanket, qualify as 'protected helm station'? :rolleyes:

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Perhaps when you're offshore this is true, but 98% of my sailing is not offshore. However two comments:

 

1) Most places inside are not compatible with lounging positions. Windows/sills are too high--see 99.99% of catamarans, you need to sit very erect or be standing.

 

2) Especially when 'on soundings', it's seldom so simple as just hitting the 'dodge' button on the autopilot. Very frequently one has to quickly take the helm and disengage the pilot for debris, fishing gear, and a whole variety of reasons. If you have to dash outside, to take the helm, it would frequently be too late. This is a case where theory does not match reality. I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar for every time I felt that the best response was to take control and disengage the pilot as the preferred option to adding a 10 degree course change to miss something. Maybe it's just me.... but in Maine, the PNW and the ICW, I much prefer being quite close to the helm for the unexpected....

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I'm firmly in Wess' camp regarding the absolute requirement for a protected helm station.

 

When cruising, you spend 99% on autopilot. Being outside for 1% of the time (plus sail adjustments) is not that tough...

With the autopilot remote, does the saloon's sofa, with a comfy blanket, qualify as 'protected helm station'? :rolleyes:

 

Thanks Veeger. You understand exactly what we are searching for.

 

5X_CH, while we exactly align on the best racing (small OD boats), no, I am sorry, but while many (maybe even most) yachts/crews do what you describe, that would violate a passage watch standing safety protocol my wife and I set up long ago and follow to this day. The boat can be (most often is) on autopilot but the watchkeeper needs to be physically at the helm and able to immediately hand steer. Mainecat, Chris White, Gunboat, and many other design this ability into their boats. Alas, we can't find one that has really simple systems and is as fast, fun, and responsive to sail as our Corsair F27F (designed in what like 1985... shout out to Ian!). So we are looking at used racing cats and doing a refit.

 

But enough of this (which is my personal problem and quest). Lets go back to the ratings discussions. I agree w 5X_CH. Much as I love sailing my F27 I never loved racing it or any other cruising multihull because it turns into such wide band rating racing that the boats just can't be fairly rated. So my Laser was and still is the most fun to race. But if the approach to rating multis that is briefly outlined by Deathroll is real and can be made to work it would be great! Lets get back to talking about it! Great concept but is there any meat on those bones?

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The mixed multihull fleet is getting big enough now that I can imagine seeing narrower rating bands and more classes. The old days of Lagoon vs F boat vs Gunboat in one class are long gone. Fujin was certainly out in front (and alone) this year, but I'd expect Elvis (Gunboat 62), Extreme (Gunboat 66), VaiVai (Gunboat 57) and the Rapido 60 would all be in the hunt boat-for-boat with Fujin. The Gunboat 68 should be as fast or faster than any of those.

 

For the rest of the Heineken fleet this year, it was great action. The HH, Gunboat 60's, and the Outremer had multiple lead changes and the elapsed time results changed from day to day. Add some HH55's and some Gunboat 55's to the mix and you have even more action.

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The old days of Lagoon vs F boat vs Gunboat in one class are long gone.

 

 

Really? Is that just for the few events the GB do? I thought for example the upcoming BVI regatta had a rather diverse range of multis racing including GBs... or are the BVI regatta organizers and scorers breaking the multi fleet into sub-classes?

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The old days of Lagoon vs F boat vs Gunboat in one class are long gone.

 

 

Really? Is that just for the few events the GB do? I thought for example the upcoming BVI regatta had a rather diverse range of multis racing including GBs... or are the BVI regatta organizers and scorers breaking the multi fleet into sub-classes?

 

 

 

Sounds from this thread like race organizers would now be talking to an owner's association about that

 

Can't see why owners of fast offshore racer/cruiser multihulls would want to break their already small numbers into even smaller numbers, but who knows

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The old days of Lagoon vs F boat vs Gunboat in one class are long gone.

 

 

Really? Is that just for the few events the GB do? I thought for example the upcoming BVI regatta had a rather diverse range of multis racing including GBs... or are the BVI regatta organizers and scorers breaking the multi fleet into sub-classes?

 

 

 

Sounds from this thread like race organizers would now be talking to an owner's association about that

 

Can't see why owners of fast offshore racer/cruiser multihulls would want to break their already small numbers into even smaller numbers, but who knows

 

 

 

Heineken had an Offshore Multihull Association (OMA) class (Gunboat x 3, HH, Outremer, Fujin), they had a racing class (Morticia, F40 tri, etc), then 3 classes of cruising cats, witha total of 30 multis competing(?).

 

In the case of BVI they have the Offshore Multihull Association class (Gunboat x 6, Outremer, and HH) and then inevitably there will be a couple of orphans in a separate class. I think Triple Jack will be in the orphan class, unfortunately. TJ is Gunboat quick, but it's not compliant with the OMA/Multirule. From what I understand the OMA/Multirule needs instruments to be able to rate a boat. Plus you need 3d scans and data and expense that is out of reach of the average racer.

 

The hope is that participation is high enough that you can get a good 5-10 boats in each class. If there are 10+ then I'd split the fleet into fast and medium fast.

 

(For the record, Gunboat has nothing to do with the OMA or the Multirule).

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Wow, racing in the 'Orphan Class' sounds grim!

I guess our ST60's are not state of the art any more?

We just hope that our courses are the same so we can gauge ourselves against the Johnny come lately 'on the line' fliers.

 

Whatever happens it's all good, and there's always the 'Round Tortola' on the 28th March!

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soma

 

Are you racing Soma (formula 40)?

Nope. Between the new job, Zika, and a baby, launching Soma is a bridge too far this season. To make matters worse, Soma is on the hard at Nanny Cay, facing the racecourse. She'll see me cheating on her aboard Extreme.

 

RIP, get in touch with the OMA. It's worth asking about inclusion. Either way, look forward to seeing you guys and having a beer.

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Lots of inconsistency in this thread if I am reading it correctly.

 

So can an Outremer 45 or a TS 42 realistically play in OMA or not and what would be needed? Or are they orphaned?

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I’ve been thinking about something similar to what this MultiRule sounds like for for some time but had never considered this tactic for handicapping boats based on sampling of the fastest recorded speeds/angles from the boat itself. If this is anything like what it purports to be, congrats to the Multi Owners Association which has finally done it.

If I'm following correctly, this new Multi OA rule gives the boat a real-time target speed at different wind angles and wind speeds correcting over time. This system relies on advanced instrumentation which is typically limited to Grand Prix level racers but may ultimately be available more broadly as costs come down. This could be revolutionary and from where I sit as a geek and sailing enthusiast, truly exciting.

 

The strategy here, seem to be leveraging recent advances in onboard computers and navigation instruments and computer numerical control built molds. Given the massive increase in processing power and observational data, the multi owners seem to be asking why not use a whole polar curve instead of single number rating?

 

With multihulls any boat is really 2 different boats, pre hull-fly and post hull-fly. No single number ratings system would ever be able to fairly account for that.

 

I am curious how scoring for a race works using MultiRule

 

Can somebody please PM me an let me know how I can get in touch with the folks working on MultiRule.

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Maybe I'm missing something, but aside from the archimedes weight calculation, why grand prix level instrumentation? It seems to me that you need calibrated wind speed, wind angle and boat speed along with software, e.g. Expedition, to record those data over time. Look at the strip charts and average the highest numbers for each point of sale. I think I could do it with my (soon to be replaced) ST50s. Having a rating system that was portable from one OA/area to another would be very handy.

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Maybe I'm missing something, but aside from the archimedes weight calculation, why grand prix level instrumentation? It seems to me that you need calibrated wind speed, wind angle and boat speed along with software, e.g. Expedition, to record those data over time. Look at the strip charts and average the highest numbers for each point of sale. I think I could do it with my (soon to be replaced) ST50s. Having a rating system that was portable from one OA/area to another would be very handy.

 

 

I actually have no idea what level of instrumentation would be required. I was making an assumption that TWA and TWS calculations from AWA and AWS might require a level of accuracy and high frequency sampling beyond the capability of less sophisticated arrangements.

 

In truth, I am just speculating from the posts above. Hoping to learn more.

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Maybe I'm missing something, but aside from the archimedes weight calculation, why grand prix level instrumentation? It seems to me that you need calibrated wind speed, wind angle and boat speed along with software, e.g. Expedition, to record those data over time. Look at the strip charts and average the highest numbers for each point of sale. I think I could do it with my (soon to be replaced) ST50s. Having a rating system that was portable from one OA/area to another would be very handy.

 

 

I actually have no idea what level of instrumentation would be required. I was making an assumption that TWA and TWS calculations from AWA and AWS might require a level of accuracy and high frequency sampling beyond the capability of less sophisticated arrangements.

 

In truth, I am just speculating from the posts above. Hoping to learn more.

 

Most of the boats (at least all the big multis form the Heineken) are just exporting their data from their laptops which run Expedition during the race.

 

True story about hull-flying - we saw that point in case with Flow vs Arethusa (on paper similar boats, but Flow flew a hull for a significant amount of time on several legs and the difference after handicap did not reflect the actual difference in speed)...

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Thanks for that Fujin video! Very impressive craft!

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If the new rating system is based on actual boat polars with the actual crew, then I think it sucks, because it doesn't take the crew factor out of the equation.

 

A boat usually sailed badly will correct out to be on top of the board, just because the crew had a slightly better than average day (while any other crew would have sailed the boat much faster)?

 

Paul

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It does take the crew factor out of the equation. It is not designed to be a golf handicap. Sorry for the poor explanations above

 

Initially a boat is rated by her VPP polars adjusted for actual regatta weight

 

Then those initial polars are refined over time (over subsequent race days and subsequent events) for the boat's actual potential speeds

 

It is done by, while during races, sampling how fast the boat goes many, many times (average speed of an e.g. 30 second segment in a particular TWA/TWS "bucket") Once you get a large number of data on these 30 second segments for a particular TWA/TWS bucket, and once you have a leading VPP analysis firm clean out the garbage segments (near a tack. jibe, wind speed change etc), then you take only the fastest few segments and average them to get an empirical polar data point.

 

The idea is that even a non-pro crew can occasionally get the boat going at 100% of her potential (the crews on these offshore catamarans are pretty darn good on every boat). You are only taking those fastest few data points

 

A good crew will sail at her potential more of the time. A less good crew will sail a boat at her potential less of the time. Since you are only using the fastest few segments, it does not matter which crew is sailing to refine the polars over time

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That seems right. Put Phaedo's crew on my boat and you've got a winner (on corrected). Put me on Phaedo and I'm still gonna suck.

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It does take the crew factor out of the equation. It is not designed to be a golf handicap. Sorry for the poor explanations above

 

Initially a boat is rated by her VPP polars adjusted for actual regatta weight

 

Then those initial polars are refined over time (over subsequent race days and subsequent events) for the boat's actual potential speeds

 

It is done by, while during races, sampling how fast the boat goes many, many times (average speed of an e.g. 30 second segment in a particular TWA/TWS "bucket") Once you get a large number of data on these 30 second segments for a particular TWA/TWS bucket, and once you have a leading VPP analysis firm clean out the garbage segments (near a tack. jibe, wind speed change etc), then you take only the fastest few segments and average them to get an empirical polar data point.

 

The idea is that even a non-pro crew can occasionally get the boat going at 100% of her potential (the crews on these offshore catamarans are pretty darn good on every boat). You are only taking those fastest few data points

 

A good crew will sail at her potential more of the time. A less good crew will sail a boat at her potential less of the time. Since you are only using the fastest few segments, it does not matter which crew is sailing to refine the polars over time

Thanks. So the data acquired during a specific race does not impact or change the boats rating for that same race. And those initial polars can be adjusted either way? Up or down?

 

A number of folks have asked so I am guessing the answer is "no" but is there anything in the public domain about the approach? Certainly understand if its too early to go public... just interested as it sounds like a great idea and especially keen to understand how widely applicable it might be.

 

Regards,

 

Wess

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I can't speak for the OA, but my understanding is that they are not really trying to go public with anything yet. Heineken was very much beta testing and there is a long way to go yet to dial everything in.

 

As for the polars, my understanding is that the data gathered from a race will not be used to rate that particular race - rather plugged into the spreadsheet of several (all?) races and averaged out, and applied against the next race (or race week) - but don't quote me!

 

I do know that there are safeguards in play to eliminate 'sandbagging', throw-away performance during one race, etc. to keep the accuracy high and averaged (lower swings between polars and handicaps). For instance - if one boat were to sail a really slow race because they were too conservative and sailed with a reefed main, and obviously suffered because of it, the data from that race would be tossed out so as not to lower the handicap to reward 'poor sailing'.

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On Fujin video how does the blade jib go up? I see no winching?

 

If you look about 3:15, you can see our stellar pit woman has the jib halyard run around the port pit winch to the port primary. Both pit and primary winches are electric but the primary is a bigger, faster 3 speed winch.

Regarding ratings, pyrat is correct. Any rating adjustments due to new polar data will not be applied until the next regatta and suspect data due to apparent sandbagging will be tossed out. Mild sandbagging may be difficult to detect. There should be something published on the multi-rule in the next week or so. Hopefully before the St Thomas regatta where there should be 4 Gunboats, including Elvis, the new, faster HH66 Nala and Fujin.

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He is a legend, I even named my dog Pirate. Good insight from somebody that was there, as opposed to a lot of BS from people that were not. But again, it is fun to race any boat, competition is part of our fiber, arguing the better yacht based on Heineken results is silly. From what I have heard, it was a great race with lots of time spent with friends that you don't get to see very often. Carry on through the spring Regattas and enjoy the sailing and visiting with freinds, by the end everybody should have something positive to put out there.

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It does take the crew factor out of the equation. It is not designed to be a golf handicap. Sorry for the poor explanations above

 

Initially a boat is rated by her VPP polars adjusted for actual regatta weight

 

Then those initial polars are refined over time (over subsequent race days and subsequent events) for the boat's actual potential speeds

 

 

Honest question about the rule. Will sisterships always share a rating, regardless how the boats are sailed individually? How do you correct for the disparate performance of sisterships? How do you adjust for the bold and the less-than-bold?

 

Take the 5x "Dominator" for example. It's essentially stock, but they pushed an Outremer harder than almost anyone has ever sailed an Outremer before. If another 5x shows up for an event and matches Dominator in sail area/displacement/etc, I'd expect they'd get a matching rating...but they'll lose on the water by ALOT in all likelihood. Will they be stuck with Dominator's rating and take last forever after, or will they get an adjustment to make them competitive?

 

To put it another way, what if a boat NEVER puts its bow down upwind, never bones the main on, never leans on the boards, and sails slow ALL THE TIME? We all know that that is a very real scenario. In that case, the blind squirrel will never find a nut, the polars will never see the potential of the boat. So instead, all that you're rating IS the crew factor. The rating will "drift" away from the VPP towards the polar number.

 

The HH sailed 3 of 4 races without hoisting a kite. No one I talked to reported seeing them fly a hull (except for one memorable time). They also couldn't put their port daggerboard down. I'm not accusing them of sandbagging, I think they just weren't sailing the boat that well. (Before someone gets all bent out of shape, I know, they took 2nd, and great for them, warm feelings, we welcome competition, etc).

 

My fear is the result of this new rule will be to make the results even less informative or representative. I don't believe that a blind squirrel WILL always find a nut. No amount of handwaving or number crunching will solve that. It takes more than stumbling on the correct 30-second combination of AWA and sail trim to figure out how fast a boat can go. It takes minutes to get one of these boats up to full speed IF you know what you are doing. Then, when the hull lifts, you have to take a deep breath, hold on to the traveler and sheet, and keep that leeward bow down and let her accelerate.

 

We posted a photo of Flow on FB flying a hull (bigly!). One of the other Gunboat 60 skippers (hey JP!) commented that he didn't know you could even DO that on a Gunboat 60. That's WHY we posted that photo. They were 100% in control of that boat. They flew a hull virtually the entire beat. Cam Lewis, likely the best American multihull sailor EVER, was onboard. That crew was deep with talent, and it showed. They beat the larger HH66 in every race. They are showing the full potential of the Gunboat 60 platform and what it's capable of. It's taken a couple of years to get the Chinese build issues out of it, but they are GREAT boats with huge potential. My point is if other Gunboat 60's didn't know or didn't want to put the bow down, or were left with steering/hydraulic/build issues, or whatever, their rating shouldn't drift away from their sisterships.

 

I foresee that same issue happening with the rest of the fleet. How will the polar know who is sailing well, and who is being conservative? Why can you assume that the rating drift from the VPP towards the polar is objectively a representation of the boat's potential and not just an unwillingness to prep the boat (wetsand the bottom, rig tune, etc)? Elvis will show up for every event rigorously prepared. They will fly a hull upwind and down. They will be (arguably) overcanvassed at all times.

 

I am going to name my next boat "Blind Squirrel".

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It does take the crew factor out of the equation. It is not designed to be a golf handicap. Sorry for the poor explanations above

 

Initially a boat is rated by her VPP polars adjusted for actual regatta weight

 

Then those initial polars are refined over time (over subsequent race days and subsequent events) for the boat's actual potential speeds

 

 

Honest question about the rule. Will sisterships always share a rating, regardless how the boats are sailed individually? How do you correct for the disparate performance of sisterships? How do you adjust for the bold and the less-than-bold?

 

Take the 5x "Dominator" for example. It's essentially stock, but they pushed an Outremer harder than almost anyone has ever sailed an Outremer before. If another 5x shows up for an event and matches Dominator in sail area/displacement/etc, I'd expect they'd get a matching rating...but they'll lose on the water by ALOT in all likelihood. Will they be stuck with Dominator's rating and take last forever after, or will they get an adjustment to make them competitive?

 

To put it another way, what if a boat NEVER puts its bow down upwind, never bones the main on, never leans on the boards, and sails slow ALL THE TIME? We all know that that is a very real scenario. In that case, the blind squirrel will never find a nut, the polars will never see the potential of the boat. So instead, all that you're rating IS the crew factor. The rating will "drift" away from the VPP towards the polar number.

 

The HH sailed 3 of 4 races without hoisting a kite. No one I talked to reported seeing them fly a hull (except for one memorable time). They also couldn't put their port daggerboard down. I'm not accusing them of sandbagging, I think they just weren't sailing the boat that well. (Before someone gets all bent out of shape, I know, they took 2nd, and great for them, warm feelings, we welcome competition, etc).

 

My fear is the result of this new rule will be to make the results even less informative or representative. I don't believe that a blind squirrel WILL always find a nut. No amount of handwaving or number crunching will solve that. It takes more than stumbling on the correct 30-second combination of AWA and sail trim to figure out how fast a boat can go. It takes minutes to get one of these boats up to full speed IF you know what you are doing. Then, when the hull lifts, you have to take a deep breath, hold on to the traveler and sheet, and keep that leeward bow down and let her accelerate.

 

We posted a photo of Flow on FB flying a hull (bigly!). One of the other Gunboat 60 skippers (hey JP!) commented that he didn't know you could even DO that on a Gunboat 60. That's WHY we posted that photo. They were 100% in control of that boat. They flew a hull virtually the entire beat. Cam Lewis, likely the best American multihull sailor EVER, was onboard. That crew was deep with talent, and it showed. They beat the larger HH66 in every race. They are showing the full potential of the Gunboat 60 platform and what it's capable of. It's taken a couple of years to get the Chinese build issues out of it, but they are GREAT boats with huge potential. My point is if other Gunboat 60's didn't know or didn't want to put the bow down, or were left with steering/hydraulic/build issues, or whatever, their rating shouldn't drift away from their sisterships.

 

I foresee that same issue happening with the rest of the fleet. How will the polar know who is sailing well, and who is being conservative? Why can you assume that the rating drift from the VPP towards the polar is objectively a representation of the boat's potential and not just an unwillingness to prep the boat (wetsand the bottom, rig tune, etc)? Elvis will show up for every event rigorously prepared. They will fly a hull upwind and down. They will be (arguably) overcanvassed at all times.

 

I am going to name my next boat "Blind Squirrel".

 

Damn! Now I need to find some popcorn and beer, LOL.

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On Fujin video how does the blade jib go up? I see no winching?

Leeward (port) Primary. I assume all the winches are driven.

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It does take the crew factor out of the equation. It is not designed to be a golf handicap. Sorry for the poor explanations above

 

Initially a boat is rated by her VPP polars adjusted for actual regatta weight

 

Then those initial polars are refined over time (over subsequent race days and subsequent events) for the boat's actual potential speeds

 

 

Honest question about the rule. Will sisterships always share a rating, regardless how the boats are sailed individually? How do you correct for the disparate performance of sisterships? How do you adjust for the bold and the less-than-bold?

 

Take the 5x "Dominator" for example. It's essentially stock, but they pushed an Outremer harder than almost anyone has ever sailed an Outremer before. If another 5x shows up for an event and matches Dominator in sail area/displacement/etc, I'd expect they'd get a matching rating...but they'll lose on the water by ALOT in all likelihood. Will they be stuck with Dominator's rating and take last forever after, or will they get an adjustment to make them competitive?

 

To put it another way, what if a boat NEVER puts its bow down upwind, never bones the main on, never leans on the boards, and sails slow ALL THE TIME? We all know that that is a very real scenario. In that case, the blind squirrel will never find a nut, the polars will never see the potential of the boat. So instead, all that you're rating IS the crew factor. The rating will "drift" away from the VPP towards the polar number.

 

The HH sailed 3 of 4 races without hoisting a kite. No one I talked to reported seeing them fly a hull (except for one memorable time). They also couldn't put their port daggerboard down. I'm not accusing them of sandbagging, I think they just weren't sailing the boat that well. (Before someone gets all bent out of shape, I know, they took 2nd, and great for them, warm feelings, we welcome competition, etc).

 

My fear is the result of this new rule will be to make the results even less informative or representative. I don't believe that a blind squirrel WILL always find a nut. No amount of handwaving or number crunching will solve that. It takes more than stumbling on the correct 30-second combination of AWA and sail trim to figure out how fast a boat can go. It takes minutes to get one of these boats up to full speed IF you know what you are doing. Then, when the hull lifts, you have to take a deep breath, hold on to the traveler and sheet, and keep that leeward bow down and let her accelerate.

 

We posted a photo of Flow on FB flying a hull (bigly!). One of the other Gunboat 60 skippers (hey JP!) commented that he didn't know you could even DO that on a Gunboat 60. That's WHY we posted that photo. They were 100% in control of that boat. They flew a hull virtually the entire beat. Cam Lewis, likely the best American multihull sailor EVER, was onboard. That crew was deep with talent, and it showed. They beat the larger HH66 in every race. They are showing the full potential of the Gunboat 60 platform and what it's capable of. It's taken a couple of years to get the Chinese build issues out of it, but they are GREAT boats with huge potential. My point is if other Gunboat 60's didn't know or didn't want to put the bow down, or were left with steering/hydraulic/build issues, or whatever, their rating shouldn't drift away from their sisterships.

 

I foresee that same issue happening with the rest of the fleet. How will the polar know who is sailing well, and who is being conservative? Why can you assume that the rating drift from the VPP towards the polar is objectively a representation of the boat's potential and not just an unwillingness to prep the boat (wetsand the bottom, rig tune, etc)? Elvis will show up for every event rigorously prepared. They will fly a hull upwind and down. They will be (arguably) overcanvassed at all times.

 

I am going to name my next boat "Blind Squirrel".

 

Theoretically, the new rating system (I think) would still reward Flow for that performance over the other GB60's down the road... because the data will ping and use the highest speed & VMG registered at any instance during that race, and I'm not sure that the top speeds between the two 60's was that different?

 

I've 'heard' that the other 60 - thought they could not/did not fly a hull - still saw 14 knots boat speed close hauled at one point during that race, and never saw much more than that on Flow via AIS monitoring (not that it couldn't have happened). So maybe Flow's top speed on that leg was 14.2 or 14.5? They got SMOKED by Fujin who was averaging 16, so it couldn't have been much faster... And given that the fastest ping possibly/probably registered in a moment when they had the bow down, Flow at that moment could have registered a similar VMG to the other 60? I suspect that the best SINGLE MOMENT of top speed and VMG of each of those two boats wasn't so different, even though clearly Flow was able to keep it up way more consistently. (Obviously over the course of the leg, their massively higher average speed & VMG gave them massive gains (and they won on corrected big time)

 

But then I could be wronger than a fart in a submarine...

 

Also the difference (real time) and top speed between the two boats was substantially smaller on the reaching & downwind legs. Not sure how that factors in or how it will all average out but I see your point, and hope that doesn't end up being the case. Otherwise the pickledish should really just be a 'participation trophy' I guess? Let's see how it works out with another few regatta's worth of data plugged in.

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Overall this seems like a good way to approach ratings, especially compensating for the weight.

I like that using the top speeds to adjust the polars would reward consistency which which should give the edge to well sailed boats as even boats not sailed as hard would occasionally see burst of speed even if they don't have the skills to sustain them.

What I'm wondering about is what happens when surfing down waves: this could produce erroneous points on the polars that no-one would be able to achieve in flat water (however skilled) so does that mean that "better" crews able to catch more waves would get a larger rating hit because of it?

 

Of course there is still the question of how the ratings are applied: for example is the actual rating used based on the "average" wind speed over the course or based on an integrated conditions over the course?

 

In the end no rating is going to work perfectly over any conditions but this looks like it could be "as good as it gets"...

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I am deeply interested in what could be a radically new approach to ratings.

Unfortunately, there's is not a lot of information on the public domain. Privately, I have learned from two Heineken crew that only VPP calculated Polars were used for Heineken. None of the sample type polar adjustments were used for any boats. I'm still waiting to see some white paper or other technical discussion of the rating. Someone mentioned a document along these lines being developed.

 

FWIW I do not have an axe to grind.

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I am deeply interested in what could be a radically new approach to ratings.

Unfortunately, there's is not a lot of information on the public domain. Privately, I have learned from two Heineken crew that only VPP calculated Polars were used for Heineken. None of the sample type polar adjustments were used for any boats. I'm still waiting to see some white paper or other technical discussion of the rating. Someone mentioned a document along these lines being developed.

 

FWIW I do not have an axe to grind.

That's because this was the first test - there were no samples/adjustments available because they have not collected data yet from previous races, so obviously the VPPs were the only place to start

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