wristwister

Asymmetric off spin pole?

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So I picked up an asymmetric spinnaker last year and I've been playing around with it. Works great on certain points of sail, a bit of a pain to jibe. I sail it off a tack line coming off the headsail tack, and it's plain to see why it would prefer to fly off a bowsprit.

 

Have any of you tried rigging the spin pole to be a bowsprit? I'm thinking if I could rig lines to support the tip vertically and laterally it could be done without snapping in half.

 

Also, by shoving the tack way out there on a boat that wasn't designed for a sprit, would I be inducing severe lee helm?

 

Thanks

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How do you rig the sheets? It might work better if the sheets are in front of the sail instead of between the forestay and the sail like you would do if you did have a sprit. If you are rigging off the headstay tack then it is unlikely that the sheets will fall in the water like they tend to do off a sprit if rigged that way.

 

I know people do use a spinnaker pole on an asymmetric particurally where the rules allow bigger sails if they are asymmetric like in southern California. Up here the rules are different so we don't see that. They use the pole to move the tack for more downwind points of sail.

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Flying an asym off of the pole works well. Don't lock the pole in place, use two guys and a tack line to the tack of the kite, and two sheets to the clew. If you look through janpix of local races and find pictures of Poke and Destroy you'll see that it is normally rigged this way.

 

When flying the kite one guy is though the pole and the other is lazy. You can pole back a little too run deep. The tack line replaces the foreguy/downhaul.

 

When you jybe you pull the active guy off of the pole and fly the kite by the tack only (cruising style). Jybe the sails and then jybe the pole and hook it up on the new side.

 

It's more steps than a symmetrical kite, but easier. I'd single hand this was with my old boat, but wasn't as comfortable jybing the sym kite single handed. It is slower to do smoothly when fully crewed.

 

Locking the pole to your bowsprit will make it impossible to fly a jib.

 

I'm doing a bunch of rigging work to re-Quest and when I'm done we'll also be setup to fly asym kites off of a pole.

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When asymmetric boats first came on the scene lots of symmetric boats tried running asyms off their symmetric pole; they just pulled the outboard end all the way down. Worked like a charm, sort of.

 

If you are thinking of rigging the pole such that the inboard end is not attached to the mast and the outboard end extends more than just a little bit beyond the current tack you will most likely run into a lot of problems as normal spinnaker poles are built to handle a very large compression load but can't really take a lot of bending.. Plus your local PH board will probably want to re-rate you for the new rig configuration.

 

Most symmetrically rigged boats attach a small sprit and some attach a strop down to the knuckle on the bow to support the sprit if the sprit is long enough (and your local wind strength high enough) to warrant that kind of support.

 

No, you will not be inducing a lot of lee helm.

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I've flown an assy off a pole a lot, not as a bowsprit but a regular pole. Works very well on disp boats. Carry the pole very low. Needs 2 guys and 2 sheets. I also rig a tack downhaul to bow, to hold spin while pole is shifted during jibe. Outside jibe with masthead rig. Jibing procedure needs to be broken down to step by step, then it's fairly easy. Takes a bit longer than jibing a symmetrical.

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Sounds like you are looking to boost downwind performance while cruising short handed vice looking for a rules beater for racing. If so, may I suggest an easier, though admittedly more expensive way; two poles.

 

My old boat was one of those IOR downwind nightmares that was rigged with dual poles. In light to moderate cruising conditions, I could rig and launch a spinnaker solo with two poles, one on each guy, two foreguys, two toppers and gybe all day long from the cockpit. Had a 20' J and 63' I so this was no pocket cruiser and yet it worked great. If I'd had to pay for all the extra gear I might have looked for another solution but your assy on a pole sounds pretty complicated and could be almost as expensive to get right.

 

Symmetrical kites want a pole, assyms want a sprit IMHO. If your boat was designed for a sym, I'd keep it that way.

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I'm glad to read that the popular opinion is that you will need 5 lines: 2 sheets, 2 guys and one tack line / bobstay. Don't let anyone try to tell you that you can do without the tack line. It's just no

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How do you rig the sheets? It might work better if the sheets are in front of the sail instead of between the forestay and the sail like you would do if you did have a sprit. If you are rigging off the headstay tack then it is unlikely that the sheets will fall in the water like they tend to do off a sprit if rigged that way.

 

Speaking as a sometimes bowman on a boat that races with this exact configuration (that is, an asym tacked to a tackline on the deck) it's definitely preferable to run the sheets inside the tack line, not forward of it. Hourglasses are common that way. The sheet likes to tangle in the sail, or the tackline itself.

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How do you rig the sheets? It might work better if the sheets are in front of the sail instead of between the forestay and the sail like you would do if you did have a sprit. If you are rigging off the headstay tack then it is unlikely that the sheets will fall in the water like they tend to do off a sprit if rigged that way.

Speaking as a sometimes bowman on a boat that races with this exact configuration (that is, an asym tacked to a tackline on the deck) it's definitely preferable to run the sheets inside the tack line, not forward of it. Hourglasses are common that way. The sheet likes to tangle in the sail, or the tackline itself.

I was doing it on a masthead rigged displacement boat. Simply not the gap to inside jibe. Outside jibe worked great...there was a lot of new sheet to tail. Crew got used to it with a little practice. Didn't carry it short handed.

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You can do it and it works. It's complicated. It makes for a spiderweb of the foredeck and for a giant bowl of spaghetti in your cockpit.

 

Recommend: use on long leg distance races only and with decent foredeck talent. Better option: just get a proper sprit.

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Thing is -- on a clunker displacement with an assy, you're rarely in the situation you need to gybe.

 

If you're gybing angles, you should be running VMG with a sym kite.

 

So as Nice! says -- long legs, offshore only, avoid gybing (it'll be a clusterfuck).

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Commonly heard comment after last year's Vic-Maui - "never going offshore again on a boat that can't bring the pole back enough to enable running deep to match the waves." So flying an asso off a pole is a good thing for some types of boats.

 

More or less what is happening in the picture above.

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Thing is -- on a clunker displacement with an assy, you're rarely in the situation you need to gybe.

 

If you're gybing angles, you should be running VMG with a sym kite.

 

So as Nice! says -- long legs, offshore only, avoid gybing (it'll be a clusterfuck).

Wasn't quite a clunker...28' 5000# MORC boat. We used the assy on a pole b/c it gave a fair bit more projected area...luff a few feet longer than the symmetrical, which we needed in the light stuff. In a breeze, or in tight traffic we used a symmetrical.

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We did it on a Soverel for years. Works well. We started with outside jibes but with the 7/8 fractional we found that insides worked well. We did the following

1. Ease guy

2. drop pole to deck

3. jibe inside

4. wait for jibe to finish

5. reset pole

6 pole back as needed.

The trick is not to worry about the pole during or immediately after the jibe. The chute flies just fine off the bow and unless you have a 6' penalty pole the difference for a few minutes will be negligible.

We also found the sail did well in more downwind situations with the pole back to about 45. After that performance dropped below what we got on the sym.

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The trick is not to worry about the pole during or immediately after the jibe. The chute flies just fine off the bow and unless you have a 6' penalty pole the difference for a few minutes will be negligible. [/size][/size]

this -- if you need to.

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Thanks for the advice and ideas everyone, but I think we're a little off track on what I was trying to describe. I'm not talking about running the pole off the mast like in the picture above. I'm talking about rigging the pole as a fixed bowsprit. The idea is the aft pole fitting is attached to the staysail clew point on the deck midway between the cabin top and bow. The middle of the pole is lashed to the forestay support, and about 6' of the pole is hanging in front of the bow at deck level. The tack line runs through a block at the front pole fitting. Then I'm just running the asymm with tack line and sheets, and I can jibe it between that tack point and the forestay. I'd just need to figure out how to support the end of the pole laterally and vertically so it's under compression rather than shear. Make sense?

 

I'm mainly interested in this configuration for single handing or sailing with inexperienced crew where I want a simpler spinnaker configuration than a poled symmetric.

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Thanks for the advice and ideas everyone, but I think we're a little off track on what I was trying to describe. I'm not talking about running the pole off the mast like in the picture above. I'm talking about rigging the pole as a fixed bowsprit. The idea is the aft pole fitting is attached to the staysail clew point on the deck midway between the cabin top and bow. The middle of the pole is lashed to the forestay support, and about 6' of the pole is hanging in front of the bow at deck level. The tack line runs through a block at the front pole fitting. Then I'm just running the asymm with tack line and sheets, and I can jibe it between that tack point and the forestay. I'd just need to figure out how to support the end of the pole laterally and vertically so it's under compression rather than shear. Make sense?

 

I'm mainly interested in this configuration for single handing or sailing with inexperienced crew where I want a simpler spinnaker configuration than a poled symmetric.

I think you will bend your spinnaker pole in half if you do what I think you said.

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"Disco the pole" the art of flying the tack on the bobstay/downfucker and moving the pole to the other side to load the guy.

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Thanks for the advice and ideas everyone, but I think we're a little off track on what I was trying to describe. I'm not talking about running the pole off the mast like in the picture above. I'm talking about rigging the pole as a fixed bowsprit. The idea is the aft pole fitting is attached to the staysail clew point on the deck midway between the cabin top and bow. The middle of the pole is lashed to the forestay support, and about 6' of the pole is hanging in front of the bow at deck level. The tack line runs through a block at the front pole fitting. Then I'm just running the asymm with tack line and sheets, and I can jibe it between that tack point and the forestay. I'd just need to figure out how to support the end of the pole laterally and vertically so it's under compression rather than shear. Make sense?

 

I'm mainly interested in this configuration for single handing or sailing with inexperienced crew where I want a simpler spinnaker configuration than a poled symmetric.

I think you will bend your spinnaker pole in half if you do what I think you said.

 

 

What Allen said, the loads on the asymm are huge and not sure how you could really support 6' go pole that is not designed for that. sure a line to the knuckle of the stem works in the vertical plane, sort of, but 6 ' of pole moving sideways....like Allen says. Everyone else is pretty accurate in their assessments of how to do it and gybe it. Its complicated, but not impossible. Crew knowledge helps.

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Get creative with the rigging if you must. Seems like a lot of extra effort to bend/break a spin pole. Make sure you buy an extra pole and take pictures for us. As an alternative, just train up the new crew to learn to set, fly and gybe it the right way. For single/short handed sailing, using a spinnaker with a sock makes a huge difference. I did that for years on my old Santana 35 so I could single hand with an A-sail and the tiller pilot.

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Cmon spin with sock is a drag if you want to do it shorthanded get a top down furler. Yo it's 2017.

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5 line set up worked well for us last year. No issues at all.

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Thanks for the advice and ideas everyone, but I think we're a little off track on what I was trying to describe. I'm not talking about running the pole off the mast like in the picture above. I'm talking about rigging the pole as a fixed bowsprit. The idea is the aft pole fitting is attached to the staysail clew point on the deck midway between the cabin top and bow. The middle of the pole is lashed to the forestay support, and about 6' of the pole is hanging in front of the bow at deck level. The tack line runs through a block at the front pole fitting. Then I'm just running the asymm with tack line and sheets, and I can jibe it between that tack point and the forestay. I'd just need to figure out how to support the end of the pole laterally and vertically so it's under compression rather than shear. Make sense?

 

I'm mainly interested in this configuration for single handing or sailing with inexperienced crew where I want a simpler spinnaker configuration than a poled symmetric.

I think you will bend your spinnaker pole in half if you do what I think you said.

 

 

What Allen said, the loads on the asymm are huge and not sure how you could really support 6' go pole that is not designed for that. sure a line to the knuckle of the stem works in the vertical plane, sort of, but 6 ' of pole moving sideways....like Allen says. Everyone else is pretty accurate in their assessments of how to do it and gybe it. Its complicated, but not impossible. Crew knowledge helps.

 

If you are insistent on making your spin pole a sprit the trick to not bending it in half is to not support it at the middle. Support it only on the ends as it was intended to be used and it won't bend. But like writswister said, that is not going to be easy. You would need lines to make a bobstay and lines out to the side but the loads on those get pretty high because you are going to have some very tight angles. Might be impossible. A larger diameter pole might work so then you just rip up the deck where it is attached.

 

I think RKoch said that he had good luck with running the sheets in front of everything. I do this with a jib that I fly free and while that is not a spinnaker, it is rigged like one and it works fine. The other thing people do it rig it like a jib and just gybe it across the foredeck. You get some halyard rubbing on the forestay but if you are not going to Hawaii, that is another thing you might consider. Put a chafe guard on the halyard and check it after each use. Of course, if the spinnaker is masthead and the rig fractional that won't work so what you do is going to depend a lot on your boat. My advice is to keep it tacked where you have it and try a couple of options on rigging the sheets until you find something that works. Depends a lot on the details of your boat of course.

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Can you add a nice stainless fitting to your bow hardware so the tack line runs a little further out?

 

Tack of the headsail is too far in but you don't need a Sprit. Just 6" past the furthest point & outside gybe it. Much easier than off the pole & you could have it flying before the bowman could even call for the topper!

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Thanks for the advice and ideas everyone, but I think we're a little off track on what I was trying to describe. I'm not talking about running the pole off the mast like in the picture above. I'm talking about rigging the pole as a fixed bowsprit. The idea is the aft pole fitting is attached to the staysail clew point on the deck midway between the cabin top and bow.

 

so assuming the pole lasts (it won't) - you've just increased J by about 50% -- what's your handicapper think of that ?

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I really don't think it's even legal to do while racing.

 

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

 

Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

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Can you add a nice stainless fitting to your bow hardware so the tack line runs a little further out?

 

Tack of the headsail is too far in but you don't need a Sprit. Just 6" past the furthest point & outside gybe it. Much easier than off the pole & you could have it flying before the bowman could even call for the topper!

I tied one of those low friction rings to the stem chainplate and run a tack line through that. We attach the tack line to the clew ring with a line soft shackle (see my web site). The line soft shackle is kind of like having a soft shackle where the knot is on the clew permanently and the eye in on the end of the tack line. Makes it very fast to attach. Then we pull the sail forward to the low friction ring and tie the tack line off to a deck cleat. That puts the sail out in front of the forestay. Run both sheets in front of the forestay and gybe outside.

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Mate has an ordinary tack line with a Stainless ring / 2" haus attached to the bow hardware on a 43' & it works great. No guys, poles, kickers or toppers required to run the ASO.

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I really don't think it's even legal to do while racing.

 

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

 

Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

 

excellent point.

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Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

 

excellent point.

 

 

It ceases to be specifically and practically a spinnaker pole and becomes simply a spar.

As long as it does not extend beyond your rated JC, it's all good.

 

But for the sake of argument, let's say it is still used as a spinnaker pole.

The mast track runs all the way down to the base of the mast. Totally legal.

The foreguy is snugged down so the tip of the pole is a low as it can possibly go. Totally legal.

So what's the issue?

 

Or another perspective:

You have a bow sprit that extends to the limit of JC. Totally legal.

The inboard end of that sprit extends aft a ways to make a more robust attachment to the deck. Totally legal.

The inboard end of that sprit extends all the way to the mast and attaches to it.

I've not seen a rule that addresses the way a sprit is affixed to the yacht.

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Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

 

excellent point.

 

 

It ceases to be specifically and practically a spinnaker pole and becomes simply a spar.

As long as it does not extend beyond your rated JC, it's all good.

 

But for the sake of argument, let's say it is still used as a spinnaker pole.

The mast track runs all the way down to the base of the mast. Totally legal.

The foreguy is snugged down so the tip of the pole is a low as it can possibly go. Totally legal.

So what's the issue?

 

That would probably be OK, but not what the OP said - his idea was to attach it to the deck.

 

I'd think most spinnaker poles aren't long enough anyway to be useful as sprits, if you attach them to the mast. The pulpit would get in the way of your tack and tackline.

 

I don't think anyone would really buy the argument that you've turned your spin pole into something else just by rigging it differently.

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That would probably be OK, but not what the OP said - his idea was to attach it to the deck.

 

I'd think most spinnaker poles aren't long enough anyway to be useful as sprits, if you attach them to the mast. The pulpit would get in the way of your tack and tackline.

 

I don't think anyone would really buy the argument that you've turned your spin pole into something else just by rigging it differently.

 

 

I've seen Farr 30's using the pole for regular symmetric kites and also for asymmetric kites where it can be tied down so to speak, but of course this means the pole is VERY long and probably a little nightmare during gybes with the symmetrical. Probably also a nice challenge for the bow person but that might be fun also. It probably also affects the rating. Why not just buy a boat that is set up to asymmetric, if that's what you really want.....

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I really don't think it's even legal to do while racing.

 

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

 

Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

 

Why not. Its not attached to the mast, Its not a spinnaker pole. Its some other kind of spar which may or may not be legal under class/rating rules and in the case of a rating rule will probably require rerating.

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I really don't think it's even legal to do while racing.

 

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

 

Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

 

Why not. Its not attached to the mast, Its not a spinnaker pole. Its some other kind of spar which may or may not be legal under class/rating rules and in the case of a rating rule will probably require rerating.

 

 

A spinnaker pole is a spinnaker pole. To use it, you have to attach it to the mast. It doesn't become a different piece of equipment by attaching it somewhere else, otherwise there'd be no point in the first place to a rule that says you must attach it to the mast.

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I don't think the OP was necessarily talking about using this in a race.

 

I thought about this a fair amount on my old boat for cruising, but always came to the same conclusions that it'll just be a good way to break the pole. I also considered ways to mount the pole higher for cruising, but still centered and mast mounted, because that would work with my existing asym kite. That prevents you from being able to use the jib, and the ability to get a jib up before dousing the kite is pretty key if the wind picks up.

 

Using the pole the normal way really isn't much more work and it's a lot better for the pole and lets you run deeper.

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If yer gonna do that, just get some proper deck mounts and make it a permanent setup.

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Wristwrister- Sounds like that setup would make for a nice crossbow when your deck fitting fails. Would put a hole in the cabin top or your crew pretty easily. You'd be much better off keeping the pole attached to the mast and using the 5-line setup as previously mentioned. You also wouldn't take a rating hit if you sized the kite properly. If you're worried about shorthanded situations, it's easier than you think when you get used to it. Have run the sheet/foredeck alone for gybes multiple times on a Schock 35 when only 2 of us were onboard for deliveries with wind up to 20. The key is to worry about the pole only after you get the boat going again.

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I really don't think it's even legal to do while racing.

 

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

 

Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

 

Why not. Its not attached to the mast, Its not a spinnaker pole. Its some other kind of spar which may or may not be legal under class/rating rules and in the case of a rating rule will probably require rerating.

 

 

A spinnaker pole is a spinnaker pole. To use it, you have to attach it to the mast. It doesn't become a different piece of equipment by attaching it somewhere else, otherwise there'd be no point in the first place to a rule that says you must attach it to the mast.

 

 

I don't really buy this. Where is the bright line between a spinnaker pole and a deck-mounted bowsprit, like one of those Selden kits? Put some eyestraps around a spinnaker pole and suddenly it's something else?

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I really don't think it's even legal to do while racing.

 

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

 

Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

Why not. Its not attached to the mast, Its not a spinnaker pole. Its some other kind of spar which may or may not be legal under class/rating rules and in the case of a rating rule will probably require rerating.

A spinnaker pole is a spinnaker pole. To use it, you have to attach it to the mast. It doesn't become a different piece of equipment by attaching it somewhere else, otherwise there'd be no point in the first place to a rule that says you must attach it to the mast.

I don't really buy this. Where is the bright line between a spinnaker pole and a deck-mounted bowsprit, like one of those Selden kits? Put some eyestraps around a spinnaker pole and suddenly it's something else?

A spinnaker pole is engineered to handle the compression load. Bowsprit is engineered to handle compression AND bending load. Simply poking a pole out the bow, with no bobstay or shrouds, will result in it breaking, which will also likely damage the boat to some degree.

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I really don't think it's even legal to do while racing.

 

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

 

Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

Why not. Its not attached to the mast, Its not a spinnaker pole. Its some other kind of spar which may or may not be legal under class/rating rules and in the case of a rating rule will probably require rerating.

A spinnaker pole is a spinnaker pole. To use it, you have to attach it to the mast. It doesn't become a different piece of equipment by attaching it somewhere else, otherwise there'd be no point in the first place to a rule that says you must attach it to the mast.

I don't really buy this. Where is the bright line between a spinnaker pole and a deck-mounted bowsprit, like one of those Selden kits? Put some eyestraps around a spinnaker pole and suddenly it's something else?

A spinnaker pole is engineered to handle the compression load. Bowsprit is engineered to handle compression AND bending load. Simply poking a pole out the bow, with no bobstay or shrouds, will result in it breaking, which will also likely damage the boat to some degree.

 

 

Yeah, and where do you see anything about compression or bending loads in the RRoS? What the OP wants to do is stupid, but that doesn't make it illegal.

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I really don't think it's even legal to do while racing.

 

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

 

Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

Why not. Its not attached to the mast, Its not a spinnaker pole. Its some other kind of spar which may or may not be legal under class/rating rules and in the case of a rating rule will probably require rerating.

A spinnaker pole is a spinnaker pole. To use it, you have to attach it to the mast. It doesn't become a different piece of equipment by attaching it somewhere else, otherwise there'd be no point in the first place to a rule that says you must attach it to the mast.

I don't really buy this. Where is the bright line between a spinnaker pole and a deck-mounted bowsprit, like one of those Selden kits? Put some eyestraps around a spinnaker pole and suddenly it's something else?

A spinnaker pole is engineered to handle the compression load. Bowsprit is engineered to handle compression AND bending load. Simply poking a pole out the bow, with no bobstay or shrouds, will result in it breaking, which will also likely damage the boat to some degree.

Yeah, and where do you see anything about compression or bending loads in the RRoS? What the OP wants to do is stupid, but that doesn't make it illegal.

it depends on how he's rated. If he extends his JC forward of the dimension he's rated for, by any means, then it's in violation of his rating cert. if he's not racing, he can do whatever he likes, even if it results in damaged gear. In the case of the 28'er I sailed, we carried the pole attached to the mast, the tack line was located right at the headstay, and the assy dimensions were within measurement. We sailed MORC and PHRF that way, with no issues.

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Flying an Asym off a standard pole extended 6' will snap the pole like a twig. Spin pole tubing is maybe 2mm wall. I made one from 3/16th wall (4.7mm) that was 3ft unsupported with a bob stay down and the loads were well supported. Took a couple of crazy knockdowns with no issue.

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I really don't think it's even legal to do while racing.

 

50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

 

Creating some kind of permanent or semi-permanent rigging setup to use your spinnaker pole as a bowsprit doesn't make it not a spinnaker pole.

 

Why not. Its not attached to the mast, Its not a spinnaker pole. Its some other kind of spar which may or may not be legal under class/rating rules and in the case of a rating rule will probably require rerating.

 

 

A spinnaker pole is a spinnaker pole. To use it, you have to attach it to the mast. It doesn't become a different piece of equipment by attaching it somewhere else, otherwise there'd be no point in the first place to a rule that says you must attach it to the mast.

 

 

I don't really buy this. Where is the bright line between a spinnaker pole and a deck-mounted bowsprit, like one of those Selden kits? Put some eyestraps around a spinnaker pole and suddenly it's something else?

 

 

On the carbon side, I have a 16' 3" carbon spin pole. It is lighter than my 10' 3" carbon sprit (different boats). The sprit was custom engineered and built for my boat. The wall thickness is about 0.25" I haven't taken the ends off the spin pole to see, but judging by the weight, it is clearly not as thick as the sprit. I wouldn't trust to use that 3" spin pole as a sprit and that 3" OD is way, way bigger than what you'd normally use for a spin pole on my boat. 2" OD is probably the appropriate size. So, to summarize, it seems that a very oversized spin pole is still underengineered to serve as a sprit. Sample size of one.

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The dude is right about a spinnaker pole always being a spinnaker pole but that doesn't make it illegal to use it as a sprit. In other words, nomenclature is irrelevant, rig and sail dimensions critical (at least as far as ratings go)

 

Along those lines most PH regions have a clause in the class rules that states that the certificate is rendered invalid immediately upon a change in rig configurations, not upon the reporting of the change.

 

As far as compression and bending loads go, Allen is right that you need to have the pole unsupported except at the ends, the problem being that once you are out of alignment any bobstay/strop loads will start to morph into lateral loads which leads me to advise anybody considering doing this that there are Trogear and Selden ads all over the place for retractable/adjustable sprits. Do that instead of trying to MacGyver it yourself..

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Thanks again for the advice guys.

 

Yes, the key to my scheme would be rigging the pole with a bobstay and side stays such that all loads are compressive and there is no bending load. I can picture in my mind how I would do this, BUT ... a lot of smart, experienced people are chiming in on this post and it sounds like nobody has ever seen this done. There's probably a very good reason for that!

 

I do single-hand and short-crew the assymetric as is. I typically hoist it on the spinnaker halyard, run the sheets to the outside of the tack line, and jibe it around the front. This takes some pretty good timing not to figure 8 it around the forestay, but it's doable. I've also tried hoisting it on the jib halyard and jibing it to the inside of the forestay, but this has proven more problematic for fouling. I've never tried the 5-line method with spinnaker pole as described above. Sounds complicated, but some day when I'm out there with crew I may give it a shot.

 

And no, I'm not proposing doing this during PHRF races. I can see how that would screw with the rating.

 

If I do decide to give this a shot, I'll post pictures of what's left of the spin pole so you can all say "Told you so!".

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Thanks for the advice and ideas everyone, but I think we're a little off track on what I was trying to describe. I'm not talking about running the pole off the mast like in the picture above. I'm talking about rigging the pole as a fixed bowsprit. The idea is the aft pole fitting is attached to the staysail clew point on the deck midway between the cabin top and bow. The middle of the pole is lashed to the forestay support, and about 6' of the pole is hanging in front of the bow at deck level. The tack line runs through a block at the front pole fitting. Then I'm just running the asymm with tack line and sheets, and I can jibe it between that tack point and the forestay. I'd just need to figure out how to support the end of the pole laterally and vertically so it's under compression rather than shear. Make sense?

 

I'm mainly interested in this configuration for single handing or sailing with inexperienced crew where I want a simpler spinnaker configuration than a poled symmetric.

Talk to Bob Seger.

 

He won the 2002 BYC Mac Race Overall with this exact set-up.

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Talk to Bob Seger.

 

He won the 2002 BYC Mac Race Overall with this exact set-up.

 

 

Just did a search on SA, you're talking about THAT Bob Seger. Apparently he was protested for that sprit/pole/whatever setup. MUCH discussion in old posts on that.

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Thanks again for the advice guys.

 

Yes, the key to my scheme would be rigging the pole with a bobstay and side stays such that all loads are compressive and there is no bending load. I can picture in my mind how I would do this, BUT ... a lot of smart, experienced people are chiming in on this post and it sounds like nobody has ever seen this done. There's probably a very good reason for that!

 

I do single-hand and short-crew the assymetric as is. I typically hoist it on the spinnaker halyard, run the sheets to the outside of the tack line, and jibe it around the front. This takes some pretty good timing not to figure 8 it around the forestay, but it's doable. I've also tried hoisting it on the jib halyard and jibing it to the inside of the forestay, but this has proven more problematic for fouling. I've never tried the 5-line method with spinnaker pole as described above. Sounds complicated, but some day when I'm out there with crew I may give it a shot.

 

And no, I'm not proposing doing this during PHRF races. I can see how that would screw with the rating.

 

If I do decide to give this a shot, I'll post pictures of what's left of the spin pole so you can all say "Told you so!".

If you don't support the pole in the center, you won't bend it in half. But if you don't have enough support on the side stays, the forestay could bend your pole as well depending on what tack you were on. If you do try it, best to have the pole on the side of the forestay where the sail is so that if your stays fail, your pole will still be supported by the bob stay although now flying to the side (and maybe bent down).

 

I disagree with those saying this would be illegal by the rules because it is using a spinnaker pole off the mast. It is not a spinnaker pole but rather it is a metal tube with fittings on it. It is a spinnaker pole by application. You cannot use it they way it is proposed and claim you are using a spinnaker pole but you could say it is a bowsprit as long as you were rated for a bowsprit of the appropriate length and it was legal in your class to fly a spinnaker off a bowsprit.

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I disagree with those saying this would be illegal by the rules because it is using a spinnaker pole off the mast. It is not a spinnaker pole but rather it is a metal tube with fittings on it. It is a spinnaker pole by application. You cannot use it they way it is proposed and claim you are using a spinnaker pole but you could say it is a bowsprit as long as you were rated for a bowsprit of the appropriate length and it was legal in your class to fly a spinnaker off a bowsprit.

 

 

So why do you think there's a rule about this? To prevent people to use the pole as it's meant to be used, without attaching it to the mast? That just doesn't make sense.

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I disagree with those saying this would be illegal by the rules because it is using a spinnaker pole off the mast. It is not a spinnaker pole but rather it is a metal tube with fittings on it. It is a spinnaker pole by application. You cannot use it they way it is proposed and claim you are using a spinnaker pole but you could say it is a bowsprit as long as you were rated for a bowsprit of the appropriate length and it was legal in your class to fly a spinnaker off a bowsprit.

 

 

So why do you think there's a rule about this? To prevent people to use the pole as it's meant to be used, without attaching it to the mast? That just doesn't make sense.

 

If the pole is being used in conjunction with the flying of a symmetrical spinnaker then it is a symmetrical spinnaker pole and must be used in conformity with the rules and regulations for flying a symmetrical spinnaker with a spinnaker pole and the pole would have to be attached to the mast.

 

Similarly if the pole is being used for flying white sails in a non-spin fleet and the rules prescribe that it must also similarly be attached to the mast in that case, as if it were a spinnaker, then it would also have to be used in conformity with that rule and also attached to the mast. Same rule applies to reaching struts

 

But a spinnaker pole being used as a sprit for the flying of an asymmetrical spinnaker is no longer a symmetrical spinnaker pole: it is a sprit and may be used as a sprit unless the class rules somehow indicate that asymmetrical spinnakers can only be flown using a sprit that is attached to the mast, which would never be the case because it is impossible.

 

But all this is besides the point since the OP has indicated he is not going to use it for racing under any PH class rules so any controversy related to the class rules does not exist.

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I disagree with those saying this would be illegal by the rules because it is using a spinnaker pole off the mast. It is not a spinnaker pole but rather it is a metal tube with fittings on it. It is a spinnaker pole by application. You cannot use it they way it is proposed and claim you are using a spinnaker pole but you could say it is a bowsprit as long as you were rated for a bowsprit of the appropriate length and it was legal in your class to fly a spinnaker off a bowsprit.

agreed.

per the ERS, it is a spinnaker pole when attached to the foremost mast.

 

Otherwise, it is a bowsprit.

 

 

So why do you think there's a rule about this? To prevent people to use the pole as it's meant to be used, without attaching it to the mast? That just doesn't make sense.

what rule ?

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not just yes, but hell yes.

 

as mentioned, there is spaghetti involved. the transfer strop for gybing can be fixed length, but better to have it be an adjustable tack line to solidify the luff during gybes.

 

As to rating hit - depends on if the pole is longer than J and the size of the kite. The only reason IMHP for it on a displacement boat is the larger kites. It's harder to gybe than a symmetric, as it takes more steps, and it will collapse during the gybe

 

but in medium air, when you need every bit of kite you can carry, sweet

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So why do you think there's a rule about this? To prevent people to use the pole as it's meant to be used, without attaching it to the mast? That just doesn't make sense.

 

 

The rule helps define what a spinnaker pole is and how its used. As the man said, its really just a bit of tube with fittings on. The rule (50.2) is more about permitting the pole, not banning it. If you don't use the spinnaker pole as a spinnaker pole, attached to the mast, it becomes an outrigger, and is banned under 50.3, unless class or rating rules make an exception.

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I'd think most spinnaker poles aren't long enough anyway to be useful as sprits, if you attach them to the mast. The pulpit would get in the way of your tack and tackline.

 

I don't think anyone would really buy the argument that you've turned your spin pole into something else just by rigging it differently.

 

The spinnaker pole is long enough to be used as a sprit if you are rated for "penalty" poles (JC).

Maybe YOUR pulpit would get in the way of YOUR tack and tackline; but it does not on the boat I sail on.

 

There is no argument; whether your bowsprit is made of wood, aluminum, carbon, or cardboard doesn't matter. Whatever fittings it has or doesn't have doesn't matter. If this spar you happen to be carrying aboard your yacht can serve multiple purposes, no problem, so long as is isn't used as an outrigger (which are now legal in some classes (current Volvo RTW racers).) A sprit is, by definition, not an outrigger.

 

 

 

 

Why not. Its not attached to the mast, Its not a spinnaker pole. Its some other kind of spar which may or may not be legal under class/rating rules and in the case of a rating rule will probably require rerating.

 

A spinnaker pole is a spinnaker pole. To use it, you have to attach it to the mast. It doesn't become a different piece of equipment by attaching it somewhere else, otherwise there'd be no point in the first place to a rule that says you must attach it to the mast.

 

JimC has this correct. It can absolutely "become" something else by "using" it as something else. If you're dismasted, your spinnaker pole might become a mast; it's been done. Coyotepup, the rules on spinnaker poles apply to spars used to outrig spinnaker tacks. It is a specific use of a piece of equipment. There is nothing restricting what was built to be a spinnaker pole to be used as a splint for a broken boom, for example. So long as you don't exceed rated measurements or break specific restrictions, you are good to go.

 

 

 

I don't really buy this. Where is the bright line between a spinnaker pole and a deck-mounted bowsprit, like one of those Selden kits? Put some eyestraps around a spinnaker pole and suddenly it's something else?

 

Yes, it becomes something else. It certainly isn't a spinnaker pole at that point.

Using a spinnaker pole as a sprit isn't some carte blanche to exceed the measurements on your certificate. One way you can make sure you don't exceed JC is to attach the inboard end of the spinnaker pole cum bowsprit to the mast, though there is no requirement to do so.

 

You really can't use your argument. On, for example, a 470, the afterguy (brace) suddenly, magically, changes into a spinnaker sheet when you jibe. Gear changes purpose all the time on a sail boat. A snatch block might be a spinnaker sheet lead, a barberhauler lead, a turning block, a changing block, and so on.

 

 

 

A spinnaker pole is engineered to handle the compression load. Bowsprit is engineered to handle compression AND bending load. Simply poking a pole out the bow, with no bobstay or shrouds, will result in it breaking, which will also likely damage the boat to some degree.

 

It's up to the rigger or boat owner to make sure the gear can handle the loads. Again, repurposing the erstwhile spinnaker pole as a sprit isn't some free rein to transcend the laws of physics or cheat on your rating certificate.

 

 

 

I disagree with those saying this would be illegal by the rules because it is using a spinnaker pole off the mast. It is not a spinnaker pole but rather it is a metal tube with fittings on it. It is a spinnaker pole by application. You cannot use it they way it is proposed and claim you are using a spinnaker pole but you could say it is a bowsprit as long as you were rated for a bowsprit of the appropriate length and it was legal in your class to fly a spinnaker off a bowsprit.

 

Yes! A Lapworth aficionado gets this!

 

 

 

 

So why do you think there's a rule about this? To prevent people to use the pole as it's meant to be used, without attaching it to the mast? That just doesn't make sense.

 

If the pole is being used in conjunction with the flying of a symmetrical spinnaker then it is a symmetrical spinnaker pole and must be used in conformity with the rules and regulations for flying a symmetrical spinnaker with a spinnaker pole and the pole would have to be attached to the mast.

 

Similarly if the pole is being used for flying white sails in a non-spin fleet and the rules prescribe that it must also similarly be attached to the mast in that case, as if it were a spinnaker, then it would also have to be used in conformity with that rule and also attached to the mast. Same rule applies to reaching struts

 

But a spinnaker pole being used as a sprit for the flying of an asymmetrical spinnaker is no longer a symmetrical spinnaker pole: it is a sprit and may be used as a sprit unless the class rules somehow indicate that asymmetrical spinnakers can only be flown using a sprit that is attached to the mast, which would never be the case because it is impossible.

 

Every one of you doubters, read Parma's post again. This has been stated several times in this thread. This is how the rules are written and applied.

__________

 

So far, this has been an academic discussion. Here is some real-world experience on this topic.

Two yachts with which I am very familiar, do variations of this. One is 32' LOA and the other is 60' LOA.The 32-footer is owned and raced by someone on the local PHRF board. I have sailed over a thousand miles on the 33-year-old moderate-displacement 60-footer and will use that yacht in my real-world example.

 

This boat has a J of 19.8' and a JC or 23.8'. It carries 23.8' long spinnaker poles and the spinnaker midgirths are appropriate for that JC. Yes, the penalty poles are 4' (20%) longer than J and it is so noted on the current rating certificate. For the last several years, the 60-footer has flown exclusively asymmetric spinnakers. Up until two years ago, the aysos were flown off the regular pole, attached to the mast, fixed as low as it can go, just inches from the base of the mast. The outboard end of the pole (the ayso tack end) is cranked down to within an inch or so of the bow pulpit. Normal symmetric spinn running rigging is used including dedicated sheets, guys, reaching strut, etc. For safety, we run the pole about six inches to weather of the forestay, but the guys are beefy as hell and that tack doesn't move at all. But make no mistake, if the afterguy (brace) were to break or be let loose accidentally, that pole would snap against the forestay and in all likelihood break. The foreguy is attached directly to the tack and the afterguy runs through the pole.

 

This rig has a couple of extra steps to jibe, but the routine is solid and works every time. The first step is to transfer the load completely off the pole by coordinating the loosening of the afterguy with the cranking down of the foreguy. At that point the tack is being lead to the stem fitting and the pole has zero load on it and can be jibed at leisure. Once it's in place, the load is transferred back to the pole as the brace is cranked aft and the foreguy is eased. One of the benefits of this rig is that we can crank the pole aft, just like with a sym, and soak if the conditions allow it or tactics call for it. We have used this ability to soak deeper compared to fixed-sprit boats many times to our advantage. So far, the use I've described is absolutely the same as flying a sym in the traditional manner.

 

A couple of years ago we installed a C-Sprit carbon bowsprit right out to just shy of the certificate-legal JC. Now the pole only gets used when we want to soak deep. The fact that the C-Sprit is two smaller poles instead of one larger pole is irrelevant as far as any current rules go.

 

Finally, Google 'bowsprit kit' and look at all the ways people are doing this. You can see that there are many ways to do this using what is, in essence, a shortened spinnaker pole. Again, it is up to the rigger to see that the sprit can handle the load on all axes, but there it is, U-clamp and all.

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I used to rig the spinnaker pole through a ring at the bow and attached the other end close to deck at the mast. The pole is about 30 cm longer that J (3.97 m). That worked OK. In very heavy reaching the pole bended more than I liked in the middle between the ring and the mast. I sometimes put topping lift there to support the pole.

 

Later I have only used the asymmetric with the pole as a symmetric. I also have symmetric spinnakers. For cruising I have often jibed the asymmetric just as a symmetric one. So that after jibe the luff and leech are reversed. That works just fine as long as you don't have to reach at tighter angles.

 

Having the ability to adjust the pole backwards make the asymmetric spinnaker so much better. I really wouldn't go back to using the pole as bowsprit. If you want to have a longer bowsprit, you really need much bigger diameter than the spinnaker pole you have unless it is way overdimensioned for your boat.

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That is probably the worst sailing video I have even seen, completely devoid of redeeming value.

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Tried this on a 23 ft symmetrically rigged sport boat years ago. We had a 150% penalty pole that we pushed through a hoop on the deck and connected the aft end to the mast at deck level. All I can say is our usually sturdy spin pole looked sketchy as fuck with an assym flying off it. Didn't take much to get that thing bending. We never snapped it because whenever we saw it bend, we always bore off. We never really got it working properly.

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A spin pole that could take that force would be a very poorly engineered spin pole as it would be way too heavy to use. Just look at the diameters of the sprits on boats. Then realize that the strength is the 4th power of the diameter and that assumes that the wall thickness is the same. But assume a tube is twice as large and twice as thick. It is 16 times stronger!

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It's a huge difference to have something unsupported. Selden gives a nice selection guide. E.g. for my boat 72 mm Al (2.2 m walls) is barely enough for my 4.25 m spinnaker pole. For a bowsprit 72 mm Al would only be good at 600 mm unsupported length for a normal asymmetric and for Code 0 they don't even give a value (300 mm for a bit smaller boat).

 

Based on my experiment with just 300 mm unsupported lenght and a normal asymmetric, I'm sure I would snap the pole at heavy reaching with even 400 mm unsupported lenght.

 

To get 1/3 J (1.3 m) unsupported length 87 mm Al would just do for normal asymmetric, but for Code 0 not even the biggest available (99 mm) is enough (only good for 760 mm). There isn't even a carbon sprit good enough. The biggest one (101 mm) could go to 950 mm.

 

http://seldenmast.com/index.php?id=4249

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Lots of discussion here about that pole snapping. I understand this (I'm a mechanical engineer) and I've made it clear several times in this thread that the key to this scheme is to support the pole in a way that transfers all loads to purely compressive loads on the pole. This can be done by pinning the pole to the deck at the aft end (but allowing it to swing), supporting the tip vertically with a bobstay and transversely with side stays, and assuring the center of the pole isn't hard up against anything where it passes the forestay hardware.

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Lots of discussion here about that pole snapping. I understand this (I'm a mechanical engineer) and I've made it clear several times in this thread that the key to this scheme is to support the pole in a way that transfers all loads to purely compressive loads on the pole. This can be done by pinning the pole to the deck at the aft end (but allowing it to swing), supporting the tip vertically with a bobstay and transversely with side stays, and assuring the center of the pole isn't hard up against anything where it passes the forestay hardware.

Which is all well and good but a PITA to hook up occasionally on a small boat.

What you describe is basically flying an assym of a pole using after guys and a tackline. On larger boats reaching struts are used to increase the angle of the guy as it meets the pole and reduce loads, more PITA to use.

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Lots of discussion here about that pole snapping. I understand this (I'm a mechanical engineer) and I've made it clear several times in this thread that the key to this scheme is to support the pole in a way that transfers all loads to purely compressive loads on the pole. This can be done by pinning the pole to the deck at the aft end (but allowing it to swing), supporting the tip vertically with a bobstay and transversely with side stays, and assuring the center of the pole isn't hard up against anything where it passes the forestay hardware.

If you go to all that trouble, you might as well have a legitimate bowsprit, or use the pole on the mast.

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My thinking is that this will take a little rigging at first, but once it's set up, setting the pole in place as a bowsprit will be quick and easy. Just clip the bobstay and sidestays to the tip, shove the pole out there, and clip the aft end onto the deck fitting.

 

Using the pole on the mast doesn't do what I want because the pole is about equal to the J dimension, and my whole objective here is to fly the asymm way in front of the forestay.

 

A permanent bowsprit adds LOA to my boat, they'd kick my butt out of my cheap 30' slip.

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Lots of discussion here about that pole snapping. I understand this (I'm a mechanical engineer) and I've made it clear several times in this thread that the key to this scheme is to support the pole in a way that transfers all loads to purely compressive loads on the pole. This can be done by pinning the pole to the deck at the aft end (but allowing it to swing), supporting the tip vertically with a bobstay and transversely with side stays, and assuring the center of the pole isn't hard up against anything where it passes the forestay hardware.

Which is all well and good but a PITA to hook up occasionally on a small boat.

What you describe is basically flying an assym of a pole using after guys and a tackline. On larger boats reaching struts are used to increase the angle of the guy as it meets the pole and reduce loads, more PITA to use.

 

 

 

well, yeah.

 

or you could get a sprit made that can take the loads.

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My thinking is that this will take a little rigging at first, but once it's set up, setting the pole in place as a bowsprit will be quick and easy. Just clip the bobstay and sidestays to the tip, shove the pole out there, and clip the aft end onto the deck fitting.

 

Using the pole on the mast doesn't do what I want because the pole is about equal to the J dimension, and my whole objective here is to fly the asymm way in front of the forestay.

 

A permanent bowsprit adds LOA to my boat, they'd kick my butt out of my cheap 30' slip.

check the pole setup on some Farrier trimarans, or what I had on my Contour 34 trimaran.

 

Stout pole on a pivot on the bow - side stays, and bobstay. Help up by the short part of the bow it rested on.

 

It was a damn stout pole, but most of the loads were taken by big wires.

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a

 

 

A permanent bowsprit adds LOA to my boat, they'd kick my butt out of my cheap 30' slip.

 

Then get a Selden or a Trogear. Really, the best advice you can get is to watch some of the online videos and think carefully about this.

 

The engineering is done, you'll get something that has already gone through experimentation and improvements to make it consumer friendly, is easy to use and reliable, made of the appropriate materials and won't take up a bunch of time and calculations which could very well go for naught.

 

Worst case is you spend a bunch of time,money and worry only to have your home built rig blow up on you at night, in the rain, near the rocks or just as you are crossing the path of that big barge which is being pushed hard by the tide and the wind

 

post-15858-0-13416000-1489687738_thumb.jpg

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My thinking is that this will take a little rigging at first, but once it's set up, setting the pole in place as a bowsprit will be quick and easy. Just clip the bobstay and sidestays to the tip, shove the pole out there, and clip the aft end onto the deck fitting.

 

Using the pole on the mast doesn't do what I want because the pole is about equal to the J dimension, and my whole objective here is to fly the asymm way in front of the forestay.

 

A permanent bowsprit adds LOA to my boat, they'd kick my butt out of my cheap 30' slip.

check the pole setup on some Farrier trimarans, or what I had on my Contour 34 trimaran.

 

Stout pole on a pivot on the bow - side stays, and bobstay. Help up by the short part of the bow it rested on.

 

It was a damn stout pole, but most of the loads were taken by big wires.

 

 

You have a big wide multihull, he has a small sloop. That probably works very well for you but there is no way that he can rig effective side stays on a small sloop. The dimensions just aren't there.

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Lots of discussion here about that pole snapping. I understand this (I'm a mechanical engineer) and I've made it clear several times in this thread that the key to this scheme is to support the pole in a way that transfers all loads to purely compressive loads on the pole. This can be done by pinning the pole to the deck at the aft end (but allowing it to swing), supporting the tip vertically with a bobstay and transversely with side stays, and assuring the center of the pole isn't hard up against anything where it passes the forestay hardware.

 

6.50 do this except that the pole is pinned to the bow.

 

mini-transat-2016-9-min.jpg

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I can see it working... you set up whiskers and a bobstay that clip to the end of the pole when you want it to be a bowsprit rather that a spin pole.

if the pole doesn't break flying an A sail with conventional rigging then as long as your whisker stays generate the same holding power as your guys, the bobstay generates the same holding power as the pole downhaul and the stays'l fitting is as stout as the car/ring on the mast then I don't see what the failure mechanism is.

you'd have to give some thought to tensioning the whisker/bobstays so that they don't let the pole move much when they load up, but I feel like that'd be doable...

 

threadjack... with a screen handle like wristwister I have to ask what kind of bike you ride?

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Lots of discussion here about that pole snapping. I understand this (I'm a mechanical engineer) and I've made it clear several times in this thread that the key to this scheme is to support the pole in a way that transfers all loads to purely compressive loads on the pole. This can be done by pinning the pole to the deck at the aft end (but allowing it to swing), supporting the tip vertically with a bobstay and transversely with side stays, and assuring the center of the pole isn't hard up against anything where it passes the forestay hardware.

 

6.50 do this except that the pole is pinned to the bow.

 

mini-transat-2016-9-min.jpg

 

Although he has not said so I'm assuming that he has about a 30 foot ordinary, every day fiberglass sloop which will have different dimensions and angles than a mini which carries its width pretty far forward, doesn't it? I just can't see 6 feet of spinnaker pole being supported by side stays on a common, every day fiberglass sloop. A bobstay? Yes. But side stays?

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threadjack... with a screen handle like wristwister I have to ask what kind of bike you ride?

 

My wife stopped putting out. Please don't make me draw you a picture.

 

 

 

 

... Either that, or I have a Bandit 1250 and an old GT750 in the garage.

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Although he has not said so I'm assuming that he has about a 30 foot ordinary, every day fiberglass sloop which will have different dimensions and angles than a mini which carries its width pretty far forward, doesn't it? I just can't see 6 feet of spinnaker pole being supported by side stays on a common, every day fiberglass sloop. A bobstay? Yes. But side stays?

 

 

Yup, a Tartan 30. Agreed, there may not be a way to get the leverage I'd need with side stays on such a boat. I'm also hesitant to drill holes into the bow at the waterline for the bobstay connection. I also question the strength of that staysail fitting to support the aft end of the pole.

 

As mentioned above, the smart thing to do would be to spring for the Seldon kit that was engineered for this purpose, but the engineer in me always has to go through the "I can make it myself!" thought process before writing fat checks.

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I do not think it will work. Just wanted to be clear. I think you posted because you wanted some advice. You are getting it. It isn't the advice you were looking for but I hope you find it useful.

 

I have on occasion gotten advice here that I didn't want to hear and then went on to prove them right. There are a few people here I block so I don't get their advice but in general this is a pretty good group of people.

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Lots of discussion here about that pole snapping. I understand this (I'm a mechanical engineer) and I've made it clear several times in this thread that the key to this scheme is to support the pole in a way that transfers all loads to purely compressive loads on the pole. This can be done by pinning the pole to the deck at the aft end (but allowing it to swing), supporting the tip vertically with a bobstay and transversely with side stays, and assuring the center of the pole isn't hard up against anything where it passes the forestay hardware.

 

6.50 do this except that the pole is pinned to the bow.

 

mini-transat-2016-9-min.jpg

 

Although he has not said so I'm assuming that he has about a 30 foot ordinary, every day fiberglass sloop which will have different dimensions and angles than a mini which carries its width pretty far forward, doesn't it? I just can't see 6 feet of spinnaker pole being supported by side stays on a common, every day fiberglass sloop. A bobstay? Yes. But side stays?

 

I think this picture is good to consider. One end of the pole is on the bow and the other end supported by three lines. If the lines stretch, which they will, the pole does not bend in half against anything including the forestay. I think the setup might work as described by the op until he jibes and now the stretch makes the pole contact the forestay.

 

Also, consider the compression force on the pole from the side stays. This is not the same as normal usage. The sharp angles translate to high compression loads on the pole. I would feel much better with a shorter pole connected directly to the bow.

 

But why bother? Just run the sheets in front of the sail and jibe outside. Or run then across the foredeck and jibe like you would a jib. Just don't run the sheets between the sail and the forestay and you will be fine and not need a bowsprit mightmare.

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If it were my boat, I'd do this: http://trogear.com/

 

I don't want lines running everywhere.

Yep, or at least look at the selden & trogear, then copy it as best you can

 

The other part of this to consider is to not mess up your boat with a bunch of hack crap. There is a guy on my dock who has put a bunch of ill-conceived hack crap on his boat and now he can't sell it. Your boat should not only sail well it should look pretty while doing it.

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Lots of discussion here about that pole snapping. I understand this (I'm a mechanical engineer) and I've made it clear several times in this thread that the key to this scheme is to support the pole in a way that transfers all loads to purely compressive loads on the pole. This can be done by pinning the pole to the deck at the aft end (but allowing it to swing), supporting the tip vertically with a bobstay and transversely with side stays, and assuring the center of the pole isn't hard up against anything where it passes the forestay hardware.

 

6.50 do this except that the pole is pinned to the bow.

 

mini-transat-2016-9-min.jpg

 

Although he has not said so I'm assuming that he has about a 30 foot ordinary, every day fiberglass sloop which will have different dimensions and angles than a mini which carries its width pretty far forward, doesn't it? I just can't see 6 feet of spinnaker pole being supported by side stays on a common, every day fiberglass sloop. A bobstay? Yes. But side stays?

 

I think this picture is good to consider. One end of the pole is on the bow and the other end supported by three lines. If the lines stretch, which they will, the pole does not bend in half against anything including the forestay. I think the setup might work as described by the op until he jibes and now the stretch makes the pole contact the forestay.

 

Also, consider the compression force on the pole from the side stays. This is not the same as normal usage. The sharp angles translate to high compression loads on the pole. I would feel much better with a shorter pole connected directly to the bow.

 

But why bother? Just run the sheets in front of the sail and jibe outside. Or run then across the foredeck and jibe like you would a jib. Just don't run the sheets between the sail and the forestay and you will be fine and not need a bowsprit mightmare.

 

I agree that it might be difficult to make work as you need to get the right geometry and outriggers or a reaching strut might be needed, complicating beyond reasonable the set up.

 

Pinning it at the bow would simplify the gybing and reduce the opportunities for a F*up.

 

Nevertheless the pinned at both end pole is a sound and efficient idea in principle.

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That solution that the Mini 6.50 shows seems like a good project to do with an already bent pole, just shorten it. It looks annoying to rig while sailing though, it's a lot of work on the pointy end of the boat. You could do it at the dock before leaving. I think you'd want a shorter one, perhaps only 4' long or so.

 

The Fisheries swap is coming up soon, where you can likely find a bent pole for a 30' boat for under $50 (I've bought two 13' poles at that swap and spent under $100 total, one was bent and one wasn't).

 

DIY clone of the Selden pole isn't that hard, I just don't think you'll end up saving that much money. If you look at their solution you'll see that it uses much larger diameter tubing than their spin poles. It also leaves even more hardware to trip over on the foredeck, and blocks the anchor locker on a lot of 30' designs. I looked at a J/35 last summer (Bergen Viking) that had a DIY sprit added (and then removed). If you can find the current owners of that boat maybe they would sell the parts. The two designs that use A-shaped poles (trogear and c-sprit) seem like they'd be better but harder to clone.

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Commonly heard comment after last year's Vic-Maui - "never going offshore again on a boat that can't bring the pole back enough to enable running deep to match the waves." So flying an asso off a pole is a good thing for some types of boats.

 

More or less what is happening in the picture above.

Depends how fast your sprit boat is ;)

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I have a good friend with a Beneteau 30 first. Not the pink one, the other one (joke). Anyway, it has a sprit that is added to allow a asym spinnaker. I think something like that is a much better choice than using a spinnaker pole. It is not part of the boat, it is an add on.

beneteau-first-30-jk-5863802015035348485

 

6039280_20161205205929472_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

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How do you get enough tension to the lines giving side force support to the outboard end? You need to have some kind of tensioning system in order to get the inboard end in place and the get the lines tensioned. Calculate the trigonemetry and see how big the forces will be with some side force. Then calculate the movement of the outboard end and the angles get even worse. If you have half of the pole on the deck, I don't think it is possible to avoid the pole leaning to forestay or pushpit. Not much slack or strecth is needed for that.

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easy solution: set it up off center so that when the whiskers are finished absorbing the slack you're not yet on the forestay... on the offside gybe the pole will set up a bit to leeward, but I don't think anyone's suggesting this is a grand prix idea, and the original concept was to have the inboard end of the pole on the stays' tack fitting which is no doubt on the centerline, so the outboard end of the pole/bowsprit was always going to be asymmetrical (see what I did there?)

sounds like the OP has decided to go with a dedicated bowsprit which is great, but the redneck engineer in me is still interested in the idea of could you have a multi purpose spar on the boat.

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All of these options are workable. It depends on the rating hit you are willing to take (if you care). I tried all of them on my Capri when I had it. We did round sails. We did Asym on a pole and Asym on a sprit. The Asym on a pole was a really good solution in most cases. It was harder to do but came with no penalty. The asym on a sprit came with a 15 second penalty (RLC) and it is questionable if it was faster in all conditions. In the light it was definitely worth the hit. Anything over hull speed and it was tough to make it work out.

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