• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
notherday

How its called - 3 take aways

73 posts in this topic

1) Racing looks more like sail testing than close tactical action - so few boats and so spread out

 

2) Outside gybes even in 10 kts - are inside gybes dead?

 

3) Set off marks before and after the weather mark?! that makes decision and boat handling much easier - imagine if they had to be prepared to set and then decision points in traffic like the real world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i thought that was an awesome video, very interesting- at least to me.

Listening to Ian Moore (Soapy) and Terry work together was very cool.

Thanks a lot Quantum!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've only watched a few other races in other venues, but this was probably the least close of the races I've seen. In general the racing seems really close. 11 boats that are near one-design in a grand prix fleet doesn't sound like few boats to me.

 

I really enjoyed the in boat commentary. Very interesting.

 

Looking at the results, every boat scored as low as 8th and all but two boat finished 2nd or better. Ironically Provezza never scored higher than 3rd, but finished 3rd overall. That seems like really promising competition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very cool video indeed! What is the dog barking noise? Signaling something?

 

 

I figured the barking was t-hutch's cell phone ringtone going off. or...it might have been a dog in their team chase boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very cool video indeed! What is the dog barking noise? Signaling something?

 

TP52 class rules require at least (1) and no more than (2) live dogs aboard at all times while racing. Dogs can be of any breed but must be alive at the start and finish of every race. (1) live dog may be carried as a spare to replace a dogs that happens to die during the course of a race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soapy's calls on times to the layines was very interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not only was there a dog onboard, but 10 sailors in a race and they never swore once. Wasn't that weird? Coincidence?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great video. Should be required viewing for anyone who calls themselves a tactician.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ya know, that video is on the FP and is why this thread was started...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What were the calls "5 & 7," "4 & 6," 4 & 4" etc.?

 

Dog barking seemed to occur near the end of each tack, were there things covered up on the audio that were either secret or was this time they all were allowed to swear?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What were the calls "5 & 7," "4 & 6," 4 & 4" etc.?

 

Dog barking seemed to occur near the end of each tack, were there things covered up on the audio that were either secret or was this time they all were allowed to swear?

Pretty sure those are times on each tack to layline. First number is probably the board they are currently on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very cool video. My three takeaways were:

1) both douses were completely drama-free -- even when Terry was "open it either gate" while only a few boat lengths out. Recovery lines are so cool.

2) getting tacked on was drama-free: "I was not expecting that." Followed by "tacking in 3,2,1." No crew freak-out; no: "Shit, Terry, they tacked on us, Terry, they tacked on us! Terry, we gotta go!"

3) every maneuver was super-dialed-in. Time in the boat and trusting everyone else to do their own jobs seems to make everything run smoother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Very cool video indeed! What is the dog barking noise? Signaling something?

 

TP52 class rules require at least (1) and no more than (2) live dogs aboard at all times while racing. Dogs can be of any breed but must be alive at the start and finish of every race. (1) live dog may be carried as a spare to replace a dogs that happens to die during the course of a race.

 

 

We found ours very helpful in the 2007 MEDCUP for turning on the the electric bilge pump on windy days, not so much for getting the sandwiches...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very cool video. My three takeaways were:

1) both douses were completely drama-free -- even when Terry was "open it either gate" while only a few boat lengths out. Recovery lines are so cool.

 

I don't follow these boats that closely, but that "openminded about gates" douse seemed too early to me. Also, do they not do mexican drops?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Terry seems frustrated with Bora's driving. That was the source of most of the dog barks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Terry seems frustrated with Bora's driving. That was the source of most of the dog barks.

I was posting earlier to rile Clean, TH may have been frustrated, but isn't that the tactician's out? What's Bora done, only won Moth titles against Slingsby and Outteridge? And if I'm wrong about that, he's been competitive. The guy's great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ya know, that video is on the FP and is why this thread was started...

There's a front page???

 

WL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When the ship runs with a bone in her teeth, a camera at the bow detects it and signals back to the tactician in the form of barking. Very useful tool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sure driving that very Large Bus, Bora is happy to get feed back from TH.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Multiple cameras kept it interesting, allowing you to see most of the team and some relevant positioning of other boats. Will be interesting also to see Bora when he loosens up with more time on the stick and when Hutch has more confidence in him. I know Hutch is"god", but sometimes you gotta let a guy drive. Would be great to see what tactical competency looks and sounds like on smaller boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Terry definitely knows these boats better than anyone out there. If he's having to talk Bora through the rate of turn on each and every tack, having to coach him "bow up/down" to get around marks, or remind him it's "a game of inches" at the bottom mark - then swearing 50% of the time when he gets it wrong, there are bigger problems at play. That's the kind of coaching you give to an owner-driver, not an olympic helmsman.

 

It's a non sequitor to say that someone will be a good helmsman in a TP52 because they were a good helmsman in the Moth. The feel of a 52 is far more subtle compared to the feel of a moth. The 52 lets you go 5% slow and you can hardly notice it. The Moth slaps you in the face and dumps you in the drink when you do anything wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most interesting video I've seen in some time.

 

Next up: Entire race with the helm and main trimmer mic'd up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really liked it. Very calm demeanor on the boat at all times. I know when we do well on the racecourse, our boat sounds like that. Also noted very little chatter from Bora. As a driver, I love it when I don't have to talk.

 

Hroth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Terry definitely knows these boats better than anyone out there. If he's having to talk Bora through the rate of turn on each and every tack, having to coach him "bow up/down" to get around marks, or remind him it's "a game of inches" at the bottom mark - then swearing 50% of the time when he gets it wrong, there are bigger problems at play. That's the kind of coaching you give to an owner-driver, not an olympic helmsman.

 

It's a non sequitor to say that someone will be a good helmsman in a TP52 because they were a good helmsman in the Moth. The feel of a 52 is far more subtle compared to the feel of a moth. The 52 lets you go 5% slow and you can hardly notice it. The Moth slaps you in the face and dumps you in the drink when you do anything wrong.

Get off the glue. I dont give a damn who you are your first regatta driving a TP52 is a learning curve. Terry has crushed it as the driver several seasons as well as being the tactician for several more. No one put in that situation would fair any different with Terry on the job unless they had a shit ton of experience driving one.

 

Bora will be just fine. Matter of fact i expect him to excel especially downhill in big breeze.

 

 

If you looked up from slobbering on Bora's knob for like a couple minutes you'd know that he's been a part of the Natalie J TP52 team on the great lakes for years now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Terry definitely knows these boats better than anyone out there. If he's having to talk Bora through the rate of turn on each and every tack, having to coach him "bow up/down" to get around marks, or remind him it's "a game of inches" at the bottom mark - then swearing 50% of the time when he gets it wrong, there are bigger problems at play. That's the kind of coaching you give to an owner-driver, not an olympic helmsman.

 

I'm calling bullshit, I would bet the relationship between tactician and skipper on the other boats is similar. Someone has to call the shots and its not the skippers job to have his head outside the boat. Rate of turn and how to come out of the marks are tactical decisions to set up for the upcoming leg.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. The fact the Bora has driven A TP52 is irrelevant. He hasn't driven this TP52 with this crew. There has to be an integration time. Listen in again in 3 regattas and let's see the difference. Besides, a good chunk of the feedback to Bora was tactical.

 

Seemed like Professionals going about being pro's with a new team member. Nothing more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

big thank you to quantum for sharing this. a few things really stuck out to me.

 

1. how few people were talking. tactician calling tactics, helmsman mostly quiet, all thats being said is whats necessary every boat I've ever raced on that was a shitshow every asshole on the boat is talking, offering their opinion, arguing with other assholes etc.

 

2. helmsman is exactly that, the helmsman. he just drives the boat and talks as needed with the main trimmer. he isn't trying to be a crew boss, he isn't trying to be the tactician or anything else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had the displeasure of racing against Bora for a decade and a half. I've seen him drive the shit out SnottyJ, and I've seem him drive-off into holes so diabolical, they've actually had hair around them...

 

I thought his little dance across the deck at 34:33 was actually pretty funny! He looked like a three legged duck steppin on his own dick; poor fuck... All and all, I though Bora's driving seemed pretty darn good, Oh, and my record of complimenting the guy is now 1 for 500. I still think he's a bit of an ass, but if he was one of my asses, well, he'd be the best damn ass on the program! Still, an ass ;)

 

And I had some nice takeaways from Terry that I'm going to put in my wheelhouse for 2017. all I need is Expedition layline times sent up to the B&G, since I won't have (a) Soapy...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone have the details on the kit Soapy is using in the vid?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looked to me that it was a procession from start to finish, at least for the top 3 boats?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might be possible that some of the coaching that Terry is giving Bora is not really necessary...certainly his calls to the crew for "big hike" are pretty pointless; crew appears very dedicated to max hike ALL the time upwind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might be possible that some of the coaching that Terry is giving Bora is not really necessary...certainly his calls to the crew for "big hike" are pretty pointless; crew appears very dedicated to max hike ALL the time upwind.

Pretty sure that's just a mental reaction. He doesn't want to get pinched off by sled at the start and when the nerves get going..

 

Layline times are prettt darn cool. Gives you a number on how hard you're "banging a corner".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the cool thing to see is there tacks and gybes. Being, that they are very limited and just stay in the grove across the course. Maybe this is based on the conditions, but it feels whatever boat I race on tacks a shit load more in comparison.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Terry seems frustrated with Bora's driving. That was the source of most of the dog barks.

I was posting earlier to rile Clean, TH may have been frustrated, but isn't that the tactician's out? What's Bora done, only won Moth titles against Slingsby and Outteridge? And if I'm wrong about that, he's been competitive. The guy's great.

 

What are talking about? Besides of a black flag in the Melges 24 worlds doing very well with even a 5th to settle with in a very tough fleet of over a 100 boats competing. His tactician these days and team mate is a guy by the name McKee! So it's not just Moths my friend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bora has won everything in the great lakes against top competition in the old Flash Glove. He has literally hundreds of hours on the helm of TP52s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bora has won everything in the great lakes against top competition in the old Flash Glove. He has literally hundreds of hours on the helm of TP52s.

Cool. My aunt is the best knitter in Tampa. She has sold the most sweaters Florida has ever seen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still confused about the first douse. Why does Quantum douse so early instead of waiting until the layline and doing a mexican like Platoon?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No matter how much and what Bora has driven and won in he still is going through the process of integrating with how this team operates, how they sail the boat. I agree that after some time and a couple of regattas the chatter will be a little bit different. I think it took a couple of regattas before EB and TH got into the same groove.

 

As far as a procession the races I saw had several lead changes, although a couple got to be a procession at the front of the fleet. Back in the pack there were changes of position quite a bit. Azzura were really on it last week as Q has been on several occasions. Overall the points were fairly tight and are most times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Terry definitely knows these boats better than anyone out there. If he's having to talk Bora through the rate of turn on each and every tack, having to coach him "bow up/down" to get around marks, or remind him it's "a game of inches" at the bottom mark - then swearing 50% of the time when he gets it wrong, there are bigger problems at play. That's the kind of coaching you give to an owner-driver, not an olympic helmsman.

 

It's a non sequitor to say that someone will be a good helmsman in a TP52 because they were a good helmsman in the Moth. The feel of a 52 is far more subtle compared to the feel of a moth. The 52 lets you go 5% slow and you can hardly notice it. The Moth slaps you in the face and dumps you in the drink when you do anything wrong.

Get off the glue. I dont give a damn who you are your first regatta driving a TP52 is a learning curve. Terry has crushed it as the driver several seasons as well as being the tactician for several more. No one put in that situation would fair any different with Terry on the job unless they had a shit ton of experience driving one.

 

Bora will be just fine. Matter of fact i expect him to excel especially downhill in big breeze.

 

 

Remember also that TH jumped on an AC45 for Artemis and won the match racing part of the ACWS the first year before they dumped him. Went back to the 52 with EB and they did just fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the thing that is newest to me is a 52ft tiller boat. Everything else that I have driven with a tiller are fairly neutral, this thing can push and pull hard when it builds a bit of momentum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the thing that is newest to me is a 52ft tiller boat. Everything else that I have driven with a tiller are fairly neutral, this thing can push and pull hard when it builds a bit of momentum.

 

How about some more info on what it is like to be placed into a team like Q and the 52 series. I think it would be very interesting to hear/read and some around here might learn something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bora,

 

That would be a terrific article. Many of us have followed your progress or had the chance to compete against you. It is cool seeing a an American sailor move up the sport, especially one who still sails in some of the same events as recreational racers. You gave some great tips and comments at the Stamford/Indian Harbor Viper 640 NAs.

 

Cheers,

 

Jason

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So the thing that is newest to me is a 52ft tiller boat. Everything else that I have driven with a tiller are fairly neutral, this thing can push and pull hard when it builds a bit of momentum.

 

How about some more info on what it is like to be placed into a team like Q and the 52 series. I think it would be very interesting to hear/read and some around here might learn something.

 

 

Very impressive, everyone is so good at every job they do. Everyone on the Quantum team is amazing I dont know how to explain but it is the way it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll get you to explain it when we do another podcast. But let's wait until you win the next event :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

So the thing that is newest to me is a 52ft tiller boat. Everything else that I have driven with a tiller are fairly neutral, this thing can push and pull hard when it builds a bit of momentum.

 

How about some more info on what it is like to be placed into a team like Q and the 52 series. I think it would be very interesting to hear/read and some around here might learn something.

 

 

Very impressive, everyone is so good at every job they do. Everyone on the Quantum team is amazing I dont know how to explain but it is the way it is.

 

Thanks for sharing with us Bora. It's good to get it directly up & personal.

 

Are you doing the Helsinki M24 worlds?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Next up: Entire race with the helm and main trimmer mic'd up.

 

No!

 

Helmsmen don't need to talk!

Ugh!

And when they do, it's always about the stupidest things!

"Do you know if the bars is hosted tonight?"

"Did I remember to extend the car rental?"

 

Just no. Muzzle the stick-monkey!

 

Pretty much ditto for the main trimmer.

 

As long as he understands the mechanics of the process, all the trimmer has to do is watch the helmsmans grip on the stick. And maybe listen to the course-monkey about what's needed when.

 

Any team worth their rum knows what to do in any circumstance.

No need for chatter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

So the thing that is newest to me is a 52ft tiller boat. Everything else that I have driven with a tiller are fairly neutral, this thing can push and pull hard when it builds a bit of momentum.

 

How about some more info on what it is like to be placed into a team like Q and the 52 series. I think it would be very interesting to hear/read and some around here might learn something.

 

 

Very impressive, everyone is so good at every job they do. Everyone on the Quantum team is amazing I dont know how to explain but it is the way it is.

 

congrats on the job well done buddy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<sound of choking on zucchini>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Terry definitely knows these boats better than anyone out there. If he's having to talk Bora through the rate of turn on each and every tack, having to coach him "bow up/down" to get around marks, or remind him it's "a game of inches" at the bottom mark - then swearing 50% of the time when he gets it wrong, there are bigger problems at play. That's the kind of coaching you give to an owner-driver, not an olympic helmsman.

 

It's a non sequitor to say that someone will be a good helmsman in a TP52 because they were a good helmsman in the Moth. The feel of a 52 is far more subtle compared to the feel of a moth. The 52 lets you go 5% slow and you can hardly notice it. The Moth slaps you in the face and dumps you in the drink when you do anything wrong.

 

this from your extensive experience on a moth?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Found this in youtube

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ioa96m2QbLs

 

 

 

"Can you block him?"

 

"Just barely"

 

"Well, then just barely do it!"

 

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What were the calls "5 & 7," "4 & 6," 4 & 4" etc.?

 

Dog barking seemed to occur near the end of each tack, were there things covered up on the audio that were either secret or was this time they all were allowed to swear?

Can somebody explain in more details how the numbers work please?

Can somebody explain in more details how the numbers work please?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone have the details on the kit Soapy is using in the vid?

Anyone please?

Anyone please?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Watching this video again I think I get what is going on with THutch, Bora, and the running of the boat. It is something different than what most of us do on a boat during a race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really? Don't know abotu you but I always blame the nav when I call a bad start. Used to be the bow but times have changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, just the overall way they race the boat, not who blew the call, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like TH is sailing the boat by 'remote control', he is running the race and the others are following his instructions, even Bora. That way they can concentrate on the job at hand, Bora drives the boat to the numbers or what TH wants at a particular time and situation. Its not that he is having to tell BG how to sail the boat, what number to hit, etc. like he does not know how to do it, but speaking out loud his call of what needs to be done as if he were single-handed. It may be a system that works whether they have a pro or owner driving the boat, TH is a constant and you can plug anyone in there to fill the spot, to a certain degree as long as they have the ability or wallet.

 

He is the eyes out of the boat, with info from the nav and strategist, then making the call to the team like a quarterback.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Used to be a big difference on how boats where sailed in the uk and us amd depends on the boat but would say everything over 24ft is sailed like that these days (?)

 

It's a question of processing power. If your looking about your not driving as fast as the guy who is 100% focused + you're not maximising use of the processing power available on the rail.

 

"Shut up and drive" as they say ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to be a concentration of the overall sailing of the boat, not as open among more members of the crew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's normal sailing- tactician wants the boat in a certain position, crew puts boat in said position/

 

Everyone has a job, everyone does their job, it's pretty simple really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Plus a helm who is relatively new to the boat and, by his own admission, struggling to hold the bow down at target with out hitting speed wobble with a tactician who has driven the boat a lot in the past.

 

If you listen to the style of coms they chance with position in the fleet. When they are recovering hutch is just telling. Zero lag. By the second lap there is compromise on keeping height but sailing a 10th under. And once positions are stabilised there is discussion between Bora and Hutch about it.

 

Full marks to soapy. Keeps his mouth shut. Does his job. Debriefs the coms issue at the start only once they cross the finish line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most boats I've sailed and watched video of the tactician is feeding info along with the nav, the helmsman has his input as far as what he is needing out of the boat from the crew the he acts on it. The helm will ask where do you think we want to be, gives some input in collaboration with the nav and tactician on what he has observed and the boats around him "here's what I am seeing and want to do", then the rest help to make it happen. More control in the helm than anyone else.

 

Here THutch is calling every thing with the rest acting upon his instruction. Just different than what I am used to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Owner driver/opti brat syndrome and a waste of the helms brain power.

 

A helm is just an underwater appendage trimmer. You can hear Bora talking to the other trimmers. That's all he needs to do + may be call the close quarter stuff like the tack for a leebow, bow up on mark roundings and start and dips.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've tried that remote-driving thing a few times and it's been a complete fucking disaster. Different circumstance of course, but relevant to the approach and how not to do it. First tried it with a rookie helm in pre-start with no prior practice between us, just "hey let's go race". I was asking for helm up / down, essentially remote driving and the delay / gain from a control-theory standpoint was impossible. Third row starts in a two row fleet. It would be interesting to model the system and see what works. We finally settled on getting in a good position 30 seconds out and the helm wings it from there, then gagging the telltale-monkey to drive to weather.

 

Giving the handheld compass to railmeat: "let me know how we're doing on that red boat" was another significant change that made it faster and more fun for all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About the most important guy on the boat probably isn't on the boat. It's the dude who calibrates the instruments. All they are doing is sailing to VPP targets.

 

It would be much more interesting if only a compass, speedo and depth were allowed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the navigator, Soapy in this case is normally the guy that calibrates the instruments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The nav works out time and space

The tactician decides what to do with that time and space and directs the helm where to go. The helm is responsible for performing the tactical application with the best vmg/ vmc. By communicating with trimmers...all that timing is greatly enhanced when you know exactly where you are in space and time. I.e. Navigators

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sunseeker, I'm willing to wager that if only those three instruments are allowed, some poor schlub would have his head down the whole race in a big binder full of numbers magically backing into targets anyway. It wouldn't be as accurate or as a quick but at these budgets...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now