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Not a fan of these fake profiles. Gives you all an excuse to talk even more shit.

I think I will start a new thread called CEO vs TRG.

Have your little pissy fight there eh.

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Nope, can't be, it was stated here that the surrogates would be of zero value as training partners! :unsure:

 

too true, i did say that. on that basis that all teams had basically said the ACC boats were a step up in performance. But it seems to be smoke. given that the length isnt touching the water it doesn't really matter. it seems that even ETNZ have been sailing on Surrogate foils also. At the end of the day i suppose. why build a slow test boat. They were as fast as they could make them. possibly only incrimental improvements from the AC45t to ACC it seems.

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Nope, can't be, it was stated here that the surrogates would be of zero value as training partners! :unsure:

too true, i did say that. on that basis that all teams had basically said the ACC boats were a step up in performance. But it seems to be smoke. given that the length isnt touching the water it doesn't really matter. it seems that even ETNZ have been sailing on Surrogate foils also. At the end of the day i suppose. why build a slow test boat. They were as fast as they could make them. possibly only incrimental improvements from the AC45t to ACC it seems.

I don't agree. After all, the development foils and wing was fitted on the test boats. What else is there? The rest of the boat is just junk to hold the important bit in place.

 

If the test foils and wing was 90% as good as the final race boat then there would be merit in it.

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Not a fan of these fake profiles. Gives you all an excuse to talk even more shit.

I think I will start a new thread called CEO vs TRG.

Have your little pissy fight there eh.

huh?!... there is so much shit talked here ( mainly guess work based on piss poor photos and 3rd party pressers) that TRG, TRG 2 COE and CEO produce very little clutter.

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Very interesting foil angle oracle at 6.52

Have we seen that before or is it just a weird angle?

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Yep really heavy angle there of that foil, not just camera angle.

is it to undertake a rapid slow speed turn with the surface of the foil creating deceleration that side?

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Yep really heavy angle there of that foil, not just camera angle.

is it to undertake a rapid slow speed turn with the surface of the foil creating deceleration that side?

Would be slowing it down on the wrong side. I believe it is to create downforce and thus extra righting moment after the tack - which is allowed for 10s.

 

Unfortunately the video cuts away so we can't see how long it continues

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One reason could be to pull that hull down, to roll better. Releasing it to negative rake would take no effort, just a careful stop-point.

 

The rake and the cant are also different between foils in the photos and video of the capsize, which makes it also very hard to tell if they were running asymmetric foils - or more likely just tips. Having obsessed over every second of the 4:10-long MIH video I am unconvinced of them being asymmetrical but I guess it's possible in the curve at about the last 24" or so.

 

From also watching a fair bit of the longer MIH videos it's clear that some teams, most especially visible on Oracle on Saturday because MIH caught them at good angles from close range, before and after tacks the foils articulate in both cant and rake a ~lot~. The rudder rakes may too but they are harder to see move.

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They do look like they are getting a lot of nice close quarter pairing up out there .

 

Great videos by MIH.

 

Is almost criminal the lack of " authorized " PR this time around . You know the teams are getting hours worth of excellent video and not sharing at all. I don't expect live prime time TV exposure at this point in time but this really is rediculas .

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They do look like they are getting a lot of nice close quarter pairing up out there .

 

Great videos by MIH.

 

Is almost criminal the lack of " authorized " PR this time around . You know the teams are getting hours worth of excellent video and not sharing at all. I don't expect live prime time TV exposure at this point in time but this really is rediculas .

 

Agree. Its bloody awful. Russell's ACEA has set the example with with credible, readable, watchable PR somewhere between Zero and Miserable. And the remote location means there are zero media outlets to pressure them. ACEA should be setting the standard but they've abrogated their role to the individual syndicates, all of whom are doing a pretty half-arsed job.

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AR look like the team to beat at this stage......fast, stable and slick.

Agreed, when it's blowing 15 knots they look very good, the boat is as fast as anybody but appears MUCH easier to sail or perhaps they are simply sailing it better!

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And still PLENTY of time for the Defender to steal the best parts of the Challengers to ensure victory for OR!!

 

Rinse wash repeat

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Isn't it funny how Artemis suddenly appear to have found the key to foiling manouvers? Perhaps they did a design change? Just a couple of weeks ago they were really struggeling with all of their manouvers, and now they tack/gybe even better than OTUSA.

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Isn't it funny how Artemis suddenly appear to have found the key to foiling manouvers? Perhaps they did a design change? Just a couple of weeks ago they were really struggeling with all of their manouvers, and now they tack/gybe even better than OTUSA.

 

We can expect one of our keyboard " experts " to claim shortly that they must be cheating somehow as such rapid improvements can not be possible in any other ways.

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^

 

I think each team is trying different setups and procedures which will at different times perform well and other times not so well . The bottom line is that all the teams are really figuring things out and showing some serious improvement .

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I like the foiling tack by Oracle soon after this timestamp, followed by an even faster one by SBTJ

 

https://youtu.be/gQjThC_rS-s?t=378

 

 

 

Looks like two gybes to me not tacks.

Yes, expected someone might correct me, shortly after I posted. But at those speeds they may as well all be called flacks, the AWA difference can't be more than about 5 degrees.

 

The more 'exotic' moves are the bareaways at the reach mark (like at :50) and top gates, and the sharp hardenups at the bottom.

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They do look like they are getting a lot of nice close quarter pairing up out there .

Great videos by MIH.

Is almost criminal the lack of " authorized " PR this time around . You know the teams are getting hours worth of excellent video and not sharing at all. I don't expect live prime time TV exposure at this point in time but this really is rediculas .

And how much in the dark would we all be with out the dedication of the MyIsandhomeBDA camera, spending huge hours bringing these clips to us..now that's a fan‼️ Hope he or she has the stamina to keep it coming..

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Some MIH videos are getting view numbers into the thousands now (depending I'd think where they get posted to) so if he cares at all then hopefully it will be encouragement to keep at it.

 

His filming and down-editing selection is also improving.

 

He was somehow Johhny on the Spot for this too, back in 2015

 

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Part 7 from yesterday's great conditions. Includes the GTF MOB, a crazy wheelie tack by SBTJ at 2:45, and... GTF looks really effing quick again ~when they are stable~ which makes you wonder if Martin F produced some very-edgy foils. MF'ing fast foils?

 

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The more I see of AR the more I'm liking there chances. ETNZ better be fast because all the other teams are really starting to improve their boat handling! It's frustrating as a kiwi supporter to watch all the other teams catching us in that sense. I can only imagine how frustrating and nerve racking it must be for the team. Then again, they know exactly how fast they are, so it may not be as bad for them.

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The more I see of AR the more I'm liking there chances. ETNZ better be fast because all the other teams are really starting to improve their boat handling! It's frustrating as a kiwi supporter to watch all the other teams catching us in that sense. I can only imagine how frustrating and nerve racking it must be for the team. Then again, they know exactly how fast they are, so it may not be as bad for them.

Not following the kiwi logic. They act like they are the Defender. Practice makes perfect. Kiwi arrogance raising its ugly head again. Ugh...

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The more I see of AR the more I'm liking there chances. ETNZ better be fast because all the other teams are really starting to improve their boat handling! It's frustrating as a kiwi supporter to watch all the other teams catching us in that sense. I can only imagine how frustrating and nerve racking it must be for the team. Then again, they know exactly how fast they are, so it may not be as bad for them.

Correct, TNZ has to come with something really different or it will be tough for them. Even for OR I think that this cup will be tougher than the other one.

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I agree NZ have to turn up with a fast boat, but why wouldn't they....? The last AC was an anomaly in that the eventual winner turned up at the start with a boat that they didn't know how to sail. That hasn't happened before and is unlikely to happen again now foiling is better understood. We are back again to an organisation and engineering race, with sailing at the end to seal the deal.

 

I strongly believe the race is already won, it's just we don't yet know the result.... :)

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These are great videos, really, thank you to MIHBDA for making and sharing these. It's impossible to judge speed from these videos and compare them to ETNZ (who knows, we may have a dog in terms of boat speed), but nothing I've seen so far challenges the stability that was seen by ETNZ before they packed up to go to BDA.

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It may be possible to judge top-end speeds by the time (if you can measure it accurately enough) of the 15m hulls going past nearby objects - which happens frequently.

 

Telling too would be time from max speed to max speed through maneouvers, which should be easier even to just eyeball.

 

As an extreme, so far GTF looks damn fast at the first measure but disastrous in almost comical proportions at the second. You watch them and think 'maybe this time' as they scream into it, and then 'g-dangit that sucked' as they damn near every time bury either one bow or the other.

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These are great videos, really, thank you to MIHBDA for making and sharing these. It's impossible to judge speed from these videos and compare them to ETNZ (who knows, we may have a dog in terms of boat speed), but nothing I've seen so far challenges the stability that was seen by ETNZ before they packed up to go to BDA.

There almost no vids of ETNZ doing maneuvers so it is impossible to say that. There was one video that was cut off just as they went into a tack (to hide some secret supposedly) but there was a series of stills (from RG) of the same maneuver that showed they dropped of the foils.

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You will have to ask the people who have been watching them from various points along the eastern suburbs, Tamaki drive and the rangitoto coastline

 

Or perhaps we can let everyone believe that they can't stay on the foils around a tack :)

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^OR let them pass to practice overtaking. LBAR would do better if they kept hulls out of the water for any period of time.

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Yes, AR was looking good in the conditions today.

 

But...

 

As always, any comparison with other teams is pointless. They may have had the foil equivalent of training wheels on... 8-)

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AR look good, Bar were closer but somehow they looked slow. almost like OR where playing with them.

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Has anyone seen results from this round of practice races?

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Exciting though it looks, I am getting less and less convinced we're going to have good racing.

 

Once they're all up to speed, the actual velocity doesn't matter so much from a viewing perspective. The problem is in the speed difference between good sailing and slightly less good sailing. Time and time again, we've seen a boat coming a little of the foils, and bam: speed difference immediately huge, gap opened, and if nothing else happens, game over. So yeah, that's a challenge: the most consistent team should win. If line speed differences are say +/- 5%, manoeuvres & consistency differences are in the +/- 20-50% (or more, purely fictional figures) range and therefore consistency should win it every time.

 

But does that make for good racing? One slight error and you're out? I'm not sure. Tactics, boat placement etc are all of secondary importance to consistency. And if by doing some fancy moves you plop your boat... So in addition to consistency, conservative sailing helps too.

 

So we'll have to see who the "boring steady Eddie" of the bunch will be!

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While it is impossible to assess the speed of ETNZ against the others until they line up, the concern I would have if I were a ETNZ fan is that stability on foils seems to be at the cost of speed unless you have lots of practice. ETNZ was super stable right out of the box. Artemis took some time to learn how to master their boat.

 

Isn't speculation fun🤔

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Foiling tacking duel 3 mins into Part 4.

AR and OR.

Lovely

AR came out the better (just).

 

When you say ""tacking duel, do you mean the three tacks with the bits between edited out?

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@Team_GBR

I disagree. ETNZ were quite unstable on there AC50 foils the first couple days they used them. Then they switched back to dev foils and looked very stable again. I wouldn't be surprised if ETNZ are less stable than we expect assuming they will start our in BDA with their race foils.

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Is anyone keeping track of wins and losses day by day for the practice racing?

Are they tabulated by day / by team anywhere?

I have only seen the total wins and losses from the first period in that OR post from a few weeks back.

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Is anyone keeping track of wins and losses day by day for the practice racing?

Are they tabulated by day / by team anywhere?

I have only seen the total wins and losses from the first period in that OR post from a few weeks back.

 

Haven't seen any scores yet, perhaps like last time they will get posted after the session completes - which will be today.

 

You can see from the videos that it is pretty informal, almost like there is a call out asking 'Are you (GTF) ready to race? No? Okay, how about you (SBTJ)?' etc. You can also see some races where one or both boats pull up before completing the course.

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When did this happen?

 

https://twitter.com/americascup/status/852183910926737409

 

Sure looked aggressive for a practice race. ;)

 

WetHog :ph34r:

Jimmy's blood is just up because he's getting pasted by Artemis once they hit the track at the moment, the starts are the only place he really gets to play with them.

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When did this happen?

 

https://twitter.com/americascup/status/852183910926737409

 

Sure looked aggressive for a practice race. ;)

 

WetHog :ph34r:

 

Jimmy's blood is just up because he's getting pasted by Artemis once they hit the track at the moment, the starts are the only place he really gets to play with them.

As OR has a lot more time before they have any races of significance than the challengers perhaps they are focusing on seperate components of the race ? Throwing the boat around in pre start maneuvers while in close proximity might have been the primary concern with that days lesson plan :)

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Part 6 begins with a well timed deck-to-deck start

 

 

Tight race before SBTJ screws up the turn at the bottom and sur-rounds the mark.

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Artemis emerge as key rival for Emirates Team New Zealand

 

Unofficial results (won-lost):

Artemis Racing 9-0

Oracle Team USA 5-4

SoftBank Team Japan 2-5

Land Rover BAR 1-4

Groupama Team France 0-3

 

http://www.nzherald....jectid=11837679

Well done Artemis !

 

Weather these results mean anything or not they certainly have recovered nicely from their earlier mishaps when some on here were calling for them to retire from the event itself.

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GO art, looking forward to etnz lining up. Not long now.

Certainly puts the pressure on OR,

 

 


 

"Artemis emerge as key rival for Emirates Team New Zealand

Unofficial results (won-lost):

Artemis Racing 9-0
Oracle Team USA 5-4
SoftBank Team Japan 2-5
Land Rover BAR 1-4
Groupama Team France 0-3

http://www.nzherald....jectid=11837679"

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Artemis emerge as key rival for Emirates Team New Zealand

 

Unofficial results (won-lost):

Artemis Racing 9-0

Oracle Team USA 5-4

SoftBank Team Japan 2-5

Land Rover BAR 1-4

Groupama Team France 0-3

 

http://www.nzherald....jectid=11837679

Well done Artemis !

 

Weather these results mean anything or not they certainly have recovered nicely from their earlier mishaps when some on here were calling for them to retire from the event itself.

Think the results are meaningless. Oracle still team to beat.

No doubt in my mind.

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Artemis emerge as key rival for Emirates Team New Zealand

 

Unofficial results (won-lost):

Artemis Racing 9-0

Oracle Team USA 5-4

SoftBank Team Japan 2-5

Land Rover BAR 1-4

Groupama Team France 0-3

 

http://www.nzherald....jectid=11837679

Well done Artemis !

 

Weather these results mean anything or not they certainly have recovered nicely from their earlier mishaps when some on here were calling for them to retire from the event itself.

 

 

Excellent effort and well deserved.

I think they have the best on-boat combination of all teams.

 

Clear they are well past the point of resolving technical issues on the new boat to get it to sail fast and now pushing it to see what breaks and refining boat handling.

Can't wait to see where ETNZ fit into the mix and bring on the LV series.

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Watching all these foiling multi's in the recent big wind, you can for sure see how natural the helms are, keeping the yacht underneath the power. Nate is a natural, could be even better than JS.

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Artemis emerge as key rival for Emirates Team New Zealand

 

Unofficial results (won-lost):

Artemis Racing 9-0

Oracle Team USA 5-4

SoftBank Team Japan 2-5

Land Rover BAR 1-4

Groupama Team France 0-3

 

http://www.nzherald....jectid=11837679

Well done Artemis !

 

Weather these results mean anything or not they certainly have recovered nicely from their earlier mishaps when some on here were calling for them to retire from the event itself.

Think the results are meaningless. Oracle still team to beat.

No doubt in my mind.

 

Only on potential, they are definitely NOT in full control of that beast regardless of how fast it can be made to go in the future!

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I would love to know AR's max speed from those 3, they look extremely quick in for example the third video, in a burst from around :50 to 1:10.

 

And stability-wise we should give them a nickname, something like A-Rails.

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Interesting tactic from OR in those heavier conditions! Keep the hulls totally submerged as much as possible? 8)

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Interesting tactic from OR in those heavier conditions! Keep the hulls totally submerged as much as possible? 8)

Yes, they had to pull out of a race at one point yesterday. I think IM cancelled racing soon into the following race, may have been that AR v SBTJ one, where they both pull up at the bottom gate.

 

Still not convinced about who has what shaft/tip combinations already out there, it could be that AR is best set up for those conditions.

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Yep. I doubt anything comparative is really worthwhile until teams commit to their final foils and show them.

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When does IM announce the reduced wind ranges for safety? 8/

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When does IM announce the reduced wind ranges for safety? 8/

Frankly it would not surprise me. Hopefully this time it would be endorsed by everyone, as I actually think it would be.

 

The forces on the beam when these boats go nose-in while doing 45knts+ must be horrendous on the structure. It's more than 'just' a human safety issue, it's potentially campaign-ending. If the likelihood of nose diving in 25knts of wind (gawd knows how much AWS, 60 plus?) is much higher than at 20 well then.. it must surely have people scratching their heads.

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In the high wind conditions, AR look completely unbeatable! I think even the mighty ETNZ will be very worried about AR's performance. They seem to be sailing around anyone with ease. They also seem to accelerate faster than anyone, along with better stability and top speed, it's a deadly mix!

First time I've been really worried for our chances as a kiwi!

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When does IM announce the reduced wind ranges for safety? 8/

Frankly it would not surprise me. Hopefully this time it would be endorsed by everyone, as I actually think it would be.

 

The forces on the beam when these boats go nose-in while doing 45knts+ must be horrendous on the structure. It's more than 'just' a human safety issue, it's potentially campaign-ending. If the likelihood of nose diving in 25knts of wind (gawd knows how much AWS, 60 plus?) is much higher than at 20 well then.. it must surely have people scratching their heads.

 

Why would Artemis endorse reducing the wind limits when they are obviously completely in control of their boat and currently significantly faster than anyone else in those conditions...

But we have already seen how this plays out from last time, if an advantage can be had by having the rules dicked with, someone will push for it regardless of the fairness of it.

I think we can probably say ETNZ won't endorse it either, they feel the wind limits is effectively part of the design rule because of the influence it has on how you design and build your boat, plus we have seen them out in the test boat going like a bat out of hell in similarly heavy conditions.

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In the high wind conditions, AR look completely unbeatable! I think even the mighty ETNZ will be very worried about AR's performance. They seem to be sailing around anyone with ease. They also seem to accelerate faster than anyone, along with better stability and top speed, it's a deadly mix!

First time I've been really worried for our chances as a kiwi!

 

Traitor.

 

;-)

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When does IM announce the reduced wind ranges for safety? 8/

Frankly it would not surprise me. Hopefully this time it would be endorsed by everyone, as I actually think it would be.

 

The forces on the beam when these boats go nose-in while doing 45knts+ must be horrendous on the structure. It's more than 'just' a human safety issue, it's potentially campaign-ending. If the likelihood of nose diving in 25knts of wind (gawd knows how much AWS, 60 plus?) is much higher than at 20 well then.. it must surely have people scratching their heads.

 

 

Interesting question and good insights too, but .....

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but IM published and enforced upper wind limits in San Francisco only after the Artemis tragedy to satisfy the USCG and facing a few ominous suggestions that the regatta permit was in jeopardy.

 

IM is not under similar constraints this time. Given all the flack he's taken ever since then on wind limits I do not expect him to concede his race wind limits authority this time. Only exception perhaps would be a unanimous decision of all competitors to rewrite wind limits.

 

Boyband, above, has a worthwhile take on this too.

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When does IM announce the reduced wind ranges for safety? 8/

He will discover soon that actual protocol wind conditions create loads above safety limits. Believe me, not team had thought about it before.

Any next accident is the good reason. You know, he had to do it, BDA coast guards would cancel the race :D

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When does IM announce the reduced wind ranges for safety? 8/

Frankly it would not surprise me. Hopefully this time it would be endorsed by everyone, as I actually think it would be.

 

The forces on the beam when these boats go nose-in while doing 45knts+ must be horrendous on the structure. It's more than 'just' a human safety issue, it's potentially campaign-ending. If the likelihood of nose diving in 25knts of wind (gawd knows how much AWS, 60 plus?) is much higher than at 20 well then.. it must surely have people scratching their heads.

 

 

Interesting question and good insights too, but .....

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but IM published and enforced upper wind limits in San Francisco only after the Artemis tragedy to satisfy the USCG and facing a few ominous suggestions that the regatta permit was in jeopardy.

 

IM is not under similar constraints this time. Given all the flack he's taken ever since then on wind limits I do not expect him to concede his race wind limits authority this time. Only exception perhaps would be a unanimous decision of all competitors to rewrite wind limits.

 

Boyband, above, has a worthwhile take on this too.

 

^^^ IM does not need unanimous decision of all competitors, does not need a USCG constraint, nor does he need to preserve his reputation, to rewrite wind limits.

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When does IM announce the reduced wind ranges for safety? 8/

Frankly it would not surprise me. Hopefully this time it would be endorsed by everyone, as I actually think it would be.

 

The forces on the beam when these boats go nose-in while doing 45knts+ must be horrendous on the structure. It's more than 'just' a human safety issue, it's potentially campaign-ending. If the likelihood of nose diving in 25knts of wind (gawd knows how much AWS, 60 plus?) is much higher than at 20 well then.. it must surely have people scratching their heads.

Interesting question and good insights too, but .....

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but IM published and enforced upper wind limits in San Francisco only after the Artemis tragedy to satisfy the USCG and facing a few ominous suggestions that the regatta permit was in jeopardy.

 

IM is not under similar constraints this time. Given all the flack he's taken ever since then on wind limits I do not expect him to concede his race wind limits authority this time. Only exception perhaps would be a unanimous decision of all competitors to rewrite wind limits.

 

Boyband, above, has a worthwhile take on this too.

And if it was unanimous, without undue pressure on any team to consent, I guess there would be no issue with it.

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Team Sushi needs to pack up and go home, obviously... 8)

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When does IM announce the reduced wind ranges for safety? 8/

Frankly it would not surprise me. Hopefully this time it would be endorsed by everyone, as I actually think it would be.

 

The forces on the beam when these boats go nose-in while doing 45knts+ must be horrendous on the structure. It's more than 'just' a human safety issue, it's potentially campaign-ending. If the likelihood of nose diving in 25knts of wind (gawd knows how much AWS, 60 plus?) is much higher than at 20 well then.. it must surely have people scratching their heads.

 

 

Interesting question and good insights too, but .....

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but IM published and enforced upper wind limits in San Francisco only after the Artemis tragedy to satisfy the USCG and facing a few ominous suggestions that the regatta permit was in jeopardy.

 

IM is not under similar constraints this time. Given all the flack he's taken ever since then on wind limits I do not expect him to concede his race wind limits authority this time. Only exceptioodon perhaps would be a unanimous decision of all competitors to rewrite wind limits.

 

Boyband, above, has a worthwhile take on this too.

 

^^^ IM does not need unanimous decision of all competitors, does not need a USCG constraint, nor does he need to preserve his reputation, to rewrite wind limits.

 

 

We're talking around the situation here. Yes IM is his own man. Which means he'll observe the status quo unless he sees good reason to make modifications. And in the very unlikely event that all competitors vote to lower wind limits, he'll adopt the voted limit. Agreed?

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I cannot believe this topic is coming up again for serious consideration. The goal posts are set and changing something as fundamental as wind limits makes a mockery of the event and undermines the level playing field set at the outset. Do not enter the event or arena if you cannot abide by the rules set - if say and ETNZ are the only teams capable of flying in these conditions safely then for heavens sake does that justify changing the rules yet again just because the other teams did not do their homework???

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