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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Tempest

Went to look at a Catalina 22....

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For much less money you can easily get a 30' or so Hunter. People who buy them once they learn how to sail unload them as fast as they can. Just don't go more than a few miles offshore with one of those things.

 

Brilliant comment. Did you read any of the posts about ramp launching a couple of times a week and raising the mast single-handed and being on a lake? Your usual "duh" would have been an improvement.

 

 

 

Thanks for the nice comment !!!!!!

 

With duh money he will save buying a marginal boat he could keep it in the water and not go through the hassle of launch rampin it.

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Did a door knock on a house this afternoon with a Precision 23 in the driveway. Doesn't sound like they are interested in selling.

 

You should be able to find a decent Shark (even out West) for around 5K. Single point lift is easy (could be ramp launched with the right trailer) and the mast weighs about the same as a C420.

 

The CS22 is cute and an interesting boat, but that one looks shittered

 

F235s are holding their value well, good luck finding a turn-key boat under 10.

 

What about a Halman 20?

Funny, a local guy has been sending me photos of a 24' shark for sale not too far away. Not sure what they're asking but it looks like a nice boat. I just don't know if I want to deal with a full keel... it looks like a nightmare to launch.

 

I agree, the CS22 doesn't look fantastic but I might go take a look at it just to say I did. Couldn't hurt.

 

Never heard of a Halman 20. I'll look into it. I'm wondering if 20' is starting to get a little small though.

 

I like the First 235 as well. The CS is like a better Cat 22, while the B First is fast and refined, hence the resale price.

That listed Ericson has alot of old sails and an owl for a pit crew, whoo wants a beer....

1985.jpg

 

There were a few of these built, but they only made some without a fixed keel. This one is pricey, too.

1980 tanzer sailbaot | sailboats | St. Catharines | Kijiji

 

The Practical Sailor's Evaluation of Three 22 Footers - Tanzer 22 Class Association

 

Tanzer 22 Used Boat Review - Tanzer 22 Class Association

I actually read that article on the 3 22' boats a few weeks ago. A tanzer 22 just popped up locally for $2500 but almost certainly no swing keel and no trailer.

https://classifieds.castanet.net/details/beautiful_sailboat_tanzer_22/3032024/

 

The people with the boat in St. Catherines need to put down the crack pipe.

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The Halman 20 has probably more internal room than a Shark or T22. They're quite tubby but shallow draft (full keel) and decently built. In terms of looks it's different.

 

Feel free to message me if you have any questions about the Shark. The shop I work at, a lot of our business is fixing Sharks and doing our best to make the bricks go faster. Big OD fleet in Eastern Canada. I also own one myself.

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Never heard of this make/model before but the boats looks like it's been well taken care of... or at least the owner has put lots of money into the flashy stuff. Anyone know how these things sail?

 

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/vernon/22-foot-windrose-sailboat-by-laguna/1253803784?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Still can't find much info on this thing but I have found in a few places now that it'll hit 6knts in a 10-12knt wind. I've also read in a few places that it sails up wind pretty well. Would love to hear from someone with experience with this unit.

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For much less money you can easily get a 30' or so Hunter. People who buy them once they learn how to sail unload them as fast as they can. Just don't go more than a few miles offshore with one of those things.

 

Brilliant comment. Did you read any of the posts about ramp launching a couple of times a week and raising the mast single-handed and being on a lake? Your usual "duh" would have been an improvement.

 

 

duh

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Never heard of this make/model before but the boats looks like it's been well taken care of... or at least the owner has put lots of money into the flashy stuff. Anyone know how these things sail?

 

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/vernon/22-foot-windrose-sailboat-by-laguna/1253803784?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Still can't find much info on this thing but I have found in a few places now that it'll hit 6knts in a 10-12knt wind. I've also read in a few places that it sails up wind pretty well. Would love to hear from someone with experience with this unit.

 

 

On flat water in a nice steady breeze with a SK/CB you will be going 3.1 - 3.2 knots upwind. Hull speed is about 5.25

 

6 kts? That is only possible off wind as SOG with current helping.

 

No big deal. All boats in this size range will be about the same.

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On flat water in a nice steady breeze with a SK/CB you will be going 3.1 - 3.2 knots upwind. Hull speed is about 5.25

 

6 kts? That is only possible off wind as SOG with current helping.

 

No big deal. All boats in this size range will be about the same.

You mean 3.1-3.2 knots in my desired direction of travel? 5.25 knots actual speed on my tacks?

 

So

3.1-3.2 --->

While 5 /\/\/\

 

So 6 knots only possible when running in any boat or just a small boat like this?

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For much less money you can easily get a 30' or so Hunter. People who buy them once they learn how to sail unload them as fast as they can. Just don't go more than a few miles offshore with one of those things.

 

Brilliant comment. Did you read any of the posts about ramp launching a couple of times a week and raising the mast single-handed and being on a lake? Your usual "duh" would have been an improvement.

 

 

duh

 

 

 

 

I got a funny feeling you drool profusely when you edit my posts to "duh"

giphy.gif

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You can compare these boats by the PHRF ratings. The lower the number the faster the boat, but these ratings can vary by region among other reasons. Faster boats may be lighter and more tender. Here is one link. I don't have a US Sailing list.

http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/base_handicaps

http://www.sailjax.com/1980/1980-PHRF-Ratings-List.htm

 

Catalina 22 phrf 282

San Juan 21-258

S2 6.8-246

Venture 21-221

Stone Horse-246

Santana 525[for comparison] 195

Tanzer 22-220

Shark 24-220

CS 22-255

O'Day 22-279

Precision 23-231

Bene 235wk-201

Bene 210-195

Ericson 23-258

Windrose 22-258 http://www.gslyc.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/GSLYC-PHRF-RATINGS-2012.pdf

 

Cheers

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On flat water in a nice steady breeze with a SK/CB you will be going 3.1 - 3.2 knots upwind. Hull speed is about 5.25

 

6 kts? That is only possible off wind as SOG with current helping.

 

No big deal. All boats in this size range will be about the same.

You mean 3.1-3.2 knots in my desired direction of travel? 5.25 knots actual speed on my tacks?

 

So

3.1-3.2 --->

While 5 /\/\/\

 

So 6 knots only possible when running in any boat or just a small boat like this?

 

 

I mean that while sailing close hauled you will be going 3.1 - 3.2 kts straight ahead. Maybe. Your VMG to your target destination will be much lower given the amount of leeway SW/CB boats make. (used to have one: it's a lot!!)

 

Regardless of boat your displacement boat hull speed will be approx equal to the square root of the LWL x 1.34 but you won't get this w/o optimally trimmed good sails.

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You can compare these boats by the PHRF ratings. The lower the number the faster the boat, but these ratings can vary by region among other reasons. Faster boats may be lighter and more tender. Here is one link. I don't have a US Sailing list.

http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/base_handicaps

http://www.sailjax.com/1980/1980-PHRF-Ratings-List.htm

 

Catalina 22 phrf 282

San Juan 21-258

S2 6.8-246

Venture 21-221

Stone Horse-246

Santana 525[for comparison] 195

Tanzer 22-220

Shark 24-220

CS 22-255

O'Day 22-279

Precision 23-231

Bene 235wk-201

Bene 210-195

Ericson 23-258

Windrose 22-258 http://www.gslyc.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/GSLYC-PHRF-RATINGS-2012.pdf

 

Cheers

 

Santana 23: 174 ... generally rated right next to the J-24

 

FB- Doug

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Shark 24...legendary. I had no idea how fast mine went, the knotmeter only went to 10.

 

 

In 1963, using a spinnaker on a close reach across Lake Ontario, Sid Dakin, one of the early Shark owners, sailed the Blockhouse Bay race from Toronto to Olcott, N.Y., with an adrenaline-pumping average speed of 10.2 knots, beating the 56-foot Innisfree on a boat-for-boat basis.

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For much less money you can easily get a 30' or so Hunter. People who buy them once they learn how to sail unload them as fast as they can. Just don't go more than a few miles offshore with one of those things.

 

Brilliant comment. Did you read any of the posts about ramp launching a couple of times a week and raising the mast single-handed and being on a lake? Your usual "duh" would have been an improvement.

 

 

duh

 

 

 

 

duh

giphy.gif

 

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You can compare these boats by the PHRF ratings. The lower the number the faster the boat, but these ratings can vary by region among other reasons. Faster boats may be lighter and more tender. Here is one link. I don't have a US Sailing list.

http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/base_handicaps

http://www.sailjax.com/1980/1980-PHRF-Ratings-List.htm

 

Catalina 22 phrf 282

San Juan 21-258

S2 6.8-246

Venture 21-221

Stone Horse-246

Santana 525[for comparison] 195

Tanzer 22-220

Shark 24-220

CS 22-255

O'Day 22-279

Precision 23-231

Bene 235wk-201

Bene 210-195

Ericson 23-258

Windrose 22-258 http://www.gslyc.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/GSLYC-PHRF-RATINGS-2012.pdf

 

Cheers

Ugh, Thank You!!! I spent an hour googling a list just like this the other day and couldn't find one!! That is really awesome so see. So that San Juan and Windrose are pretty close and they are both better than the Catalina 22. I'm surprised to see that the Tanzer 22 is so much lower and the real shocker is the Venture 21! Why does everyone slag on the ventures? They are everywhere and apparently they are a lot quicker than the competition!

 

I mean that while sailing close hauled you will be going 3.1 - 3.2 kts straight ahead. Maybe. Your VMG to your target destination will be much lower given the amount of leeway SW/CB boats make. (used to have one: it's a lot!!)

 

Regardless of boat your displacement boat hull speed will be approx equal to the square root of the LWL x 1.34 but you won't get this w/o optimally trimmed good sails.

How does that forward speed compare to other fixed keel boats of the same length? I'm guessing the side slip is due to the SK/CB being so low on surface area, is that right?

 

Santana 23: 174 ... generally rated right next to the J-24

 

FB- Doug

A Santana 23D would be a great score but I'm guessing it's going to be difficult to find one.

 

 

 

 

It's starting to look like the majority of my options are going to be in the 220-260 range anyway so, at the end of the day, how worried should I really be about the PHRF rating/speed? I think it's safe to say that I'm not going to end up with a crazy fast race boat and I'm not going to be racing it anyway. I just want something that doesn't make me swear because I'm sailing backwards when I want to go forwards.

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Short version.

Any of these boats will hit about hull speed on a reach or run if there is a breeze.

Hull speed is determined by length of the waterline. All of these boats are about the same.

Light boats and narrow boats will do well when the wind is low.

Flat bottoms and light boats will slightly exceed hull speed by sort of planing on a broad reach or run.

They also have more trouble going upwind and won't love heavy wind..

Expensive race boats with very deep pivoting keels cheat on the physics.

None of the boats on your list can head toward the wind at anything close to wind speed..

All of these boats slip sideways, wasting some of their slow speed when going up wind.

They will heel over before they hit hull speed going upwind, but it feels fast anyway.

Of course some designs can point closer to the wind as they sail slowly and slip to leeward, so they still get there faster.

Deeper ballested boats with deep round bottoms don't suck as bad upwind.

Deep keels, heavy boats and tall masts make them harder to launch as well.

Sail age, sail quality, and skill often make a bigger difference then boat design in this range,

Want a faster boat? Buy a new sail and use it a lot. Keep the weight centered and deep.

 

Would everybody agree with these generalizations?

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Yep.

New or fresh sails are a joy.

 

Sailors call it the the "row away effect" but the one that grabs you the most is important.

 

You can fix most anything but you have to love the hull and cabintop shape.

 

You can sail all of these boats mentioned above, in the saltwater Strait of Georgia as well, most of the time. There are some great overnighter trips in Howe Sound and a boat launch in Squam.

 

Plans for many really nice and fairly easy to build boats are an option and you get exactly want you want.

 

So many boats, so little time...

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Re: PHRF ratings - the lower the number the better (faster) the boat is. They are far from precise but they give a pretty good comparison between boats of similar size/type. 40 sec. a mile is quite a lot faster or slower.

 

They are only one factor to consider when shopping though.

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What about a trimaran? F 22 Farrier trailer sailer, if any exist in North America. Whoops never mind , way too much money and complexity

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You can compare these boats by the PHRF ratings. The lower the number the faster the boat, but these ratings can vary by region among other reasons. Faster boats may be lighter and more tender. Here is one link. I don't have a US Sailing list.

http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/base_handicaps

http://www.sailjax.com/1980/1980-PHRF-Ratings-List.htm

 

Catalina 22 phrf 282

San Juan 21-258

S2 6.8-246

Venture 21-221

Stone Horse-246

Santana 525[for comparison] 195

Tanzer 22-220

Shark 24-220

CS 22-255

O'Day 22-279

Precision 23-231

Bene 235wk-201

Bene 210-195

Ericson 23-258

Windrose 22-258 http://www.gslyc.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/GSLYC-PHRF-RATINGS-2012.pdf

 

Cheers

Ugh, Thank You!!! I spent an hour googling a list just like this the other day and couldn't find one!! That is really awesome so see. So that San Juan and Windrose are pretty close and they are both better than the Catalina 22. I'm surprised to see that the Tanzer 22 is so much lower and the real shocker is the Venture 21! Why does everyone slag on the ventures? They are everywhere and apparently they are a lot quicker than the competition!

 

I mean that while sailing close hauled you will be going 3.1 - 3.2 kts straight ahead. Maybe. Your VMG to your target destination will be much lower given the amount of leeway SW/CB boats make. (used to have one: it's a lot!!)

 

Regardless of boat your displacement boat hull speed will be approx equal to the square root of the LWL x 1.34 but you won't get this w/o optimally trimmed good sails.

How does that forward speed compare to other fixed keel boats of the same length? I'm guessing the side slip is due to the SK/CB being so low on surface area, is that right?

 

Santana 23: 174 ... generally rated right next to the J-24

 

FB- Doug

A Santana 23D would be a great score but I'm guessing it's going to be difficult to find one.

 

Zackly. They were built in Florida and on the West Coast (Los Angeles area?) so there may be some around. The bigger issue is the deck- it was fiberglass over plywood and all the ones I know about have either been extensively rebuilt or turned to mush.

 

BTW my S23 would hit low 6s close-hauled, VMG somewhere in the mid-4kt neighborhood. Which is why I say it would leave mostof the other trailersailers far behind; but the down side is that the mast takes a bit of raising... actually most of them do anyway, the S23 might be only 10% more effort.

 

 

It's starting to look like the majority of my options are going to be in the 220-260 range anyway so, at the end of the day, how worried should I really be about the PHRF rating/speed? I think it's safe to say that I'm not going to end up with a crazy fast race boat and I'm not going to be racing it anyway. I just want something that doesn't make me swear because I'm sailing backwards when I want to go forwards.

 

 

Keep in mind that the PHRF rating is for a boat with new-ish sails handled by a racing crew and it emphasizes upwind performance. The average will lag considerably when close-hauled and probably be right on (for relative comparison) to slightly understated.

 

The Venture 21s can be quite nice little boats. Generally though, the rigging is shot and the sails total crap and the trailer rusted away; the hull & deck & spars can be fine but if the rest is junk then the boat as a whole is, well, junk. They have the handicap that they started out cheap. If you can find one that has been upgraded & re-rigged and well taken care of, it can be a fine boat for short money.

 

Lark's generalization is right on, except I'd add that the big waves which accompany stonger winds can hurt more than the wind itself; for example around here we often get a sea breeze in the low 20 kt range which these boats could handle, but the 3 ~4 ft chop it brings makes them very wet & bouncy & difficult to handle.

 

As a newbie, what did you think of the Pocket Rocket?

 

FB- Doug

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You guys are a wealth of information. Ok, well I'm gonna worry less about the PHRF stuff since it sounds like most of these boats are going to be up wind dogs anyway.

 

Yeah, the Pocket Rocket was great! Little bit lazy in light air but it went like a stuck hog with a nice breeze. Cockpit was nice and roomy and the cutty looked pretty spacious though low on amenities (which is to be expected). I'm headed to the coast today but I'm looking forward to sailing the PR again when I get back. Even bought some sperry deck shoes. So I'll be dressing the part without actually owning a real boat 😁

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A Chambray shirt, Chinos and a pair of Wakouwa deck shoes would give you a much more snappy looking appearance.

 

Oh, and a smoking pipe....Gotta have one of them too.

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San Juan 21 with trailer was just posted recently locally with a yamaha 8hp. $2500 with the motor, $500 without. Gonna have to take a look.

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San Juan 21 with trailer was just posted recently locally with a yamaha 8hp. $2500 with the motor, $500 without. Gonna have to take a look.

There Ya go. Buy it w/o motor...you only need 4 or 5 horse, and can probably find a used one for a few hundred. Or buy a pair of oars.

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Tempest met up with me and we got out for a sail today on the big boat, with decent inshore winds. It was the dreaded Envir Canada 5-15 knots forecast but we made it to 5 Coves before the inflows started retreating and we had to head back in.

 

Good luck with your boat buying.

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Catalina 22 phrf 282

San Juan 21-258

S2 6.8-246

Venture 21-221

Stone Horse-246

Santana 525[for comparison] 195

Tanzer 22-220

Shark 24-220

CS 22-255

O'Day 22-279

Precision 23-231

Bene 235wk-201

Bene 210-195

Ericson 23-258

Windrose 22-258

Vancouver Island generally uses PHRF-NW. There, the few boats with ratings:

Catalina 22 FK 291 (FK = fixed keel)

San Juan 21 267

Santana 525 201

Shark 24 273

Precision 23 231

Bene 210 210

Ericson 23 252

 

Apparently sharks don't go over 10 knots here. While there's no NW rating for the Venture 21, the fractional version seems to rate about 258 elsewhere, and about the same as a SJ21 does in the same region. The 221 seems rather fast.

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There Ya go. Buy it w/o motor...you only need 4 or 5 horse, and can probably find a used one for a few hundred. Or buy a pair of oars.

Bah! Apparently it was sold back in January. Guy didn't take his add down but it was a good reframing moment. Makes me reconsider all of the expensive boats.

Tempest met up with me and we got out for a sail today on the big boat, with decent inshore winds. It was the dreaded Envir Canada 5-15 knots forecast but we made it to 5 Coves before the inflows started retreating and we had to head back in.

 

Good luck with your boat buying.

Awesome day of sailing and NH has a beautiful boat! Weather was cooperating too. Thanks again for taking me out.

Here's a very fast 22 foot boat with trailer that's ramp launchable with a dagger board. Probably a bit more boat than you'd want for single handling.

 

https://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/boa/6082545728.html

That thing sounds good but $12k usd is more than I'm looking to spend. At this point, a racing rig like that would probably be wasted on me.

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Although am sure the area you sail in is very nice, does not exactly sound like a sailboat mecca with respect to the used boat market.

So restatement of the obvious where you come to a fork in the road and settle for whatever is available locally or do a road trip to get the boat you may really want.

 

Have owned the bigger sister this boat (the 7.9) and liked it. Bit of a trip but sounds like it might fit the bill for what you are looking for.

 

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/64827

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Although am sure the area you sail in is very nice, does not exactly sound like a sailboat mecca with respect to the used boat market.

So restatement of the obvious where you come to a fork in the road and settle for whatever is available locally or do a road trip to get the boat you may really want.

 

Have owned the bigger sister this boat (the 7.9) and liked it. Bit of a trip but sounds like it might fit the bill for what you are looking for.

 

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/64827

I've sailed a 6.9 a few times. Nice boat, surprisingly fast.

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Here's a very fast 22 foot boat with trailer that's ramp launchable with a dagger board. Probably a bit more boat than you'd want for single handling.

 

https://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/boa/6082545728.html

 

There's one of those for sale for 4 grand in our region. Haven't really checked it out, I sailed in that PHRF fleet once a few years ago and didn't really take notice of the boat for good or for bad. It would not cost anywhere near 8 grand to drive it across the country!

 

FB- Doug

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Here's a very fast 22 foot boat with trailer that's ramp launchable with a dagger board. Probably a bit more boat than you'd want for single handling.

 

https://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/boa/6082545728.html

a little google showed me why that boat looked familiar

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=161425

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So I went to look at that Kells 23. Buddy is asking $5100 and it's a complete turd. The trailer is crap and the boat is trash. Buddy asked me if I wanted to look inside and I just said "Nope, I've seen enough". Nice fellow though and he's selling the boat for a friend. The boat & trailer is almost completely worthless though.

Although am sure the area you sail in is very nice, does not exactly sound like a sailboat mecca with respect to the used boat market.

So restatement of the obvious where you come to a fork in the road and settle for whatever is available locally or do a road trip to get the boat you may really want.

 

Have owned the bigger sister this boat (the 7.9) and liked it. Bit of a trip but sounds like it might fit the bill for what you are looking for.

 

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/64827

No, it's not. Lots of over priced junk. I agree, and I am willing to travel but you need to be aware of how much the travel costs. Going to Iowa to get a boat is probably a $5000 adventure when you consider time off work, fuel, wear and tear on the truck, food, lodging (it's a 3 day drive). I would have to pay for the boat to be moved but that means I still need to get to Iowa to look at it as I'm not going to take the POs opinion as gospel.

post-117817-0-84942000-1492470098_thumb.jpg

post-117817-0-46658500-1492470112_thumb.jpg

post-117817-0-56042800-1492470121_thumb.jpg

post-117817-0-04477200-1492470128_thumb.jpg

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http://www.sailboatl....com/view/64827

 

No, it's not. Lots of over priced junk. I agree, and I am willing to travel but you need to be aware of how much the travel costs. Going to Iowa to get a boat is probably a $5000 adventure when you consider time off work, fuel, wear and tear on the truck, food, lodging (it's a 3 day drive). I would have to pay for the boat to be moved but that means I still need to get to Iowa to look at it as I'm not going to take the POs opinion as gospel.

 

 

Wait a minute you already gots a truck? ffs that's the piece that makes the puzzle economic. Did you read up on the 6.9? Remember that's a fresh water vessel.

I gotta' be in the twin cities in May anyways and seriously thought that boat over but it was renting a tow vehicle that queered the deal. That and it weren't a 7.9.

Might be hard to hire a marine surveyor in Iowa though.....lol

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Wait a minute you already gots a truck? ffs that's the piece that makes the puzzle economic. Did you read up on the 6.9? Remember that's a fresh water vessel.

I gotta' be in the twin cities in May anyways and seriously thought that boat over but it was renting a tow vehicle that queered the deal. That and it weren't a 7.9.

Might be hard to hire a marine surveyor in Iowa though.....lol

Yeah, it's a long drive. 2-3 days each way and if it's a pile then I've wasted a lot of time and money.

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So I went to look at that 40 year old Kells 23. Buddy is asking $5100 and I guess I should have expected it to be a complete turd. I mean, what else would you expect from a 40-year-old trailerable? The trailer is crap and the boat is trash. Buddy asked me if I wanted to look inside and I just said "Nope, I've seen enough, but thank you for teaching me a lesson about 40-year-old trailerable boats". Nice fellow though and he's selling the boat for a friend. The boat & trailer is almost completely worthless though and I now realize that most of the other boats of this vintage are very likely in similar condition.

 

What you said and what you meant are different. Do not be offended - we all went through the same learning curve that you are now going through. You, lucky dog that you are, have the benefit of an online forum such as this one to give you the unvarnished truth. I wish I had had such guidance on my 1st boat.

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Wait a minute you already gots a truck? ffs that's the piece that makes the puzzle economic. Did you read up on the 6.9? Remember that's a fresh water vessel.

I gotta' be in the twin cities in May anyways and seriously thought that boat over but it was renting a tow vehicle that queered the deal. That and it weren't a 7.9.

Might be hard to hire a marine surveyor in Iowa though.....lol

Yeah, it's a long drive. 2-3 days each way and if it's a pile then I've wasted a lot of time and money.

 

 

fresh water fresh water fresh water fresh water fresh water.............

 

s2_ontrailer.jpg

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Buy relatively local. Driving for a couple of hours to look at a boat is one thing, but once it gets over four hours, it's marginal at best unless it's a real cherry. Multiple days are a no-go unless it's a done deal for a perfect boat.

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I've gone from FL to NJ to buy a boat, and I know a guy who drove FL to Cali to get a boat. Generally, something like that is extreme, and the trip cost is figured in that it's still a good deal, and the boat is a known quantity.

If you do drive a ways to pick up a boat, here's some tips:

If in doubt about tow vehicle, get AAA.

Bring a buddy, it's much easier with two. Even better if buddy has AAA.

Rather than counting on trailer lights working, and having to fuck with them when they don't, just make up a light bar in advance. That way the lights are already sorted out...just tie the lightbar to the stern of the boat, plug into truck, and you're ready to roll.

Trailers tend to sit a long time, and make short trips to the ramp. Even if trailer tires have tread, they're likely deteriorated and will blow out at prolonged highway speeds. Find out ahead of time the tire size and bolt pattern, and bring a spare. Better yet, get two. Don't forget to bring a jack. And a cross-style lug wrench.

Doesn't hurt to bring a grease gun to inspect and grease the bearings....fairly quick and easy since you brought a jack and lug wrench.

Bring a couple of ratchet straps, no telling what the P.O. Is tying the boat down with.

Bring a smart phone or laptop with wifi so you can shop around for best motel deals while on the road. Often there's AAA discount, yet another good reason to have.

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Wait a minute you already gots a truck? ffs that's the piece that makes the puzzle economic. Did you read up on the 6.9? Remember that's a fresh water vessel.

I gotta' be in the twin cities in May anyways and seriously thought that boat over but it was renting a tow vehicle that queered the deal. That and it weren't a 7.9.

Might be hard to hire a marine surveyor in Iowa though.....lol

Yeah, it's a long drive. 2-3 days each way and if it's a pile then I've wasted a lot of time and money.

 

 

fresh water fresh water fresh water fresh water fresh water.............

 

s2_ontrailer.jpg

 

 

A bit of a 2 edged sword with fresh water boats.

 

Less likely the metal bits will be corroded - more likely to have blistering. Additionally, if it is a balsa cored hull, more likely to have rot than a salt water one.

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When you sell a boat, you get back somewhere between maybe 20% to 0% of the money you've spent on the boat. Boats aren't an "investment".

 

But think about what this means when buying. You get a discount of 80% to 100% on what the previous owner spent on the boat!

 

Say there's two boats of similar size, age, type and one is $5000 and the other $7000, and they're both fairly priced. The difference between them is that the $7000 had about $10,000 spent on it that the $5000 didn't.

 

To put it another way, if you buy the $5000 boat you'll need to spend $10,000 to get what you would have had with the $7000 boat.

 

You get way WAY more out of every dollar you spend when you buy the boat than you do after you're the owner.

 

End result, for whatever size/age you're looking at, you get the best deal buying the most expensive boat you can afford. The corollary being there's nothing more expensive than a free boat!

 

Don't worry, if you maintain and improve your boat with all those tools you'll get an extra pittance for that when you sell it. But now you're the buyer, and it's your opportunity to get the big end of the stick.

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So I went to look at that Kells 23. Buddy is asking $5100 and it's a complete turd. The trailer is crap and the boat is trash. Buddy asked me if I wanted to look inside and I just said "Nope, I've seen enough". Nice fellow though and he's selling the boat for a friend. The boat & trailer is almost completely worthless though.

Although am sure the area you sail in is very nice, does not exactly sound like a sailboat mecca with respect to the used boat market.

So restatement of the obvious where you come to a fork in the road and settle for whatever is available locally or do a road trip to get the boat you may really want.

 

Have owned the bigger sister this boat (the 7.9) and liked it. Bit of a trip but sounds like it might fit the bill for what you are looking for.

 

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/64827

No, it's not. Lots of over priced junk. I agree, and I am willing to travel but you need to be aware of how much the travel costs. Going to Iowa to get a boat is probably a $5000 adventure when you consider time off work, fuel, wear and tear on the truck, food, lodging (it's a 3 day drive). I would have to pay for the boat to be moved but that means I still need to get to Iowa to look at it as I'm not going to take the POs opinion as gospel.

 

Believe me I completely get what you are saying about cost and no where did I say travelling was free. I sold my 35 ft sailboat last fall and got several inquiries from far away where travel costs are double or triple what you quoted, so again I get that. Reality is most buyers buy local (final buyer on boat ended up being 3 hrs by car, 6 days by water).

 

That said given the stuff you have forwarded that you are looking at the area you sail doesn't exactly look like a sailing mecca. In a sailing mecca you will see boat of all shapes and sizes for sale from a catalina 22 to a Santa Cruz 70. So I do stand by my statement that to get a better selection (again assuming that you are willing to pay for travel, otherwise you are stuck with whatever is available locally). Although I have never been, I would consider the PNW (Seattle/BC, etc) a sailing mecca. So logically this is probably the closest area where you might find a greater concentration of better boats/boats better suited to what your expectations/desires are.

 

Finally great suggestions from everyone who posted from your last post on down, especially R Koch with respect to the road warrior aspect. Either way good luck, actually being a boat owner comes with a ton of positives and a few negatives (mostly financial depending on size/complexity).

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When you sell a boat, you get back somewhere between maybe 20% to 0% of the money you've spent on the boat. Boats aren't an "investment".

 

But think about what this means when buying. You get a discount of 80% to 100% on what the previous owner spent on the boat!

 

Say there's two boats of similar size, age, type and one is $5000 and the other $7000, and they're both fairly priced. The difference between them is that the $7000 had about $10,000 spent on it that the $5000 didn't.

 

To put it another way, if you buy the $5000 boat you'll need to spend $10,000 to get what you would have had with the $7000 boat.

 

You get way WAY more out of every dollar you spend when you buy the boat than you do after you're the owner.

 

End result, for whatever size/age you're looking at, you get the best deal buying the most expensive boat you can afford. The corollary being there's nothing more expensive than a free boat!

 

Don't worry, if you maintain and improve your boat with all those tools you'll get an extra pittance for that when you sell it. But now you're the buyer, and it's your opportunity to get the big end of the stick.

 

^ wisdom !! ^

This is one of the best explanations I have heard yet of the philosophy that you're better off buying a smaller, more upscale boat than the bigger one, given $XX. Or for the same type boat, get a sistership that costs a little more to buy with lots of upgrades and primo condition.

 

Most of my boating life, I have tended to do it the other way, buy cheap (mostly small one-design boats anyway) then build them into hotrods. This is mostly because I am a working-class guy and can't afford "yachting" without a lot of sweat equity. But my last most recent keelboat is an excellent example of how it works... bought it for $7500 (and paid more for a boat with solid deck and newer-than-OEM sails) then spent another $5K~6K on it over the next 6 years, then sold it for $6k. Among the upgrades I put in were two Andersen two-speed self-tailers, great pieces of kit that enabled my father to sail the boat with me. But I gave them away with the boat. Welcome to the wonderful world of sailboat ownership!

 

All during that same time, you could buy Santana 23s for $2500 if you were willing to drive to where they are. But you'd immediately drop $6K+ just on sails & line, have a soggy deck & a rusted-to-shit trailer (oh yeah, add a couple hundred for trailer tires + a bearing job if you want to take the boat home) and a 1970s deck layout.

 

I got a fair deal when I bought the boat, and the guy who bought it from got a fair deal as well. Market rules, I'm not complaining (well maybe a little bit). But I'm spoiled and I like to sail nice boats.

 

FB- Doug

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I've sold all of my boats but one unfinished project for more than I had in them - in the best case I made nearly 50%, on the most recent I made a few $hundred.

 

My time was not factored in, only out of pocket expense.

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I've sold all of my boats but one unfinished project for more than I had in them - in the best case I made nearly 50%, on the most recent I made a few $hundred.

 

My time was not factored in, only out of pocket expense.

 

I have sold some boats for more than I had in them, but in recent years I do not believe that is possible. Look at some of the asking prices further up in this thread, those guys are trying to do that. You simply can't sell a boat for 2X the market, unless it is in significantly better condition. And then it will usually take a lot longer.

 

FB- Doug

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The two I mentioned were two years ago and two weeks ago.

 

Buy the right boat low, clean it up and sell at market. It's important to buy boats that have a solid, reliable market, not oddballs or orphans. Finding one loaded with extra gear can be good - my big profit one had loads of offshore gear onboard - a Hydrovane for example. Selling that stuff off brought my cost down to low 4 figures on a basically solid offshore boat.

 

It was easier when there were lots of consignment shops around. Now we have none in Vancouver and environs.

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I honestly don't understand what makes people who own beat up Catalina's think they can charge so much for them.

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The two I mentioned were two years ago and two weeks ago.

 

Buy the right boat low, clean it up and sell at market. It's important to buy boats that have a solid, reliable market, not oddballs or orphans. Finding one loaded with extra gear can be good - my big profit one had loads of offshore gear onboard - a Hydrovane for example. Selling that stuff off brought my cost down to low 4 figures on a basically solid offshore boat.

 

It was easier when there were lots of consignment shops around. Now we have none in Vancouver and environs.

 

I think carefully picking a boat for the sake of resale, plus the fact that people seem to be asking (and perhaps in some cases, getting... or at least close) very high prices in your region, account for more. I haven't particularly cared about making money off boats, that's what I had a job for.

 

OTOH it would have been nice if I could have gotten more for that last one, it certainly was the cream of the market. The problem is, when there are dozens of boats going for pennies on the dollar in the same market, you can't simply say "I'm not going to sell at a loss" because that means you will be buried in it.

 

The last ten year or so have been a deepening buyers' market. Now that the truly low-end boats are getting flushed out of the system, maybe things will pick up again.

 

FB- Doug

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I have no knowledge of this boat, it "looks" interesting.

I understand it's not quite what the OP's looking for but it looks like it should be a good lake boat.

I wonder what it looks like below the waterline?

And it's cheap!

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Definitely not a San Juan 21. Don't know what it really is, sorry.

 

I could give you a long list of boats it's -not- but somehow that doesn't seem helpful ^_^

 

FB- Doug

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It's a Northwest 650 built by C.K. Wright Marine in North Van. Designed by John Brandlmayr who owned Spencer Boats here.

 

Was originally called the Northwest 21 until that conflicted with a boat built in Seattle or environs.

 

Pretty good little boat but not exactly a sportboat. Probably similar performance to a Cal 20.

 

Not that you need to be told but the price is crazy - even for here. 1/2 that would be closer.

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Not sure if this type boat has been mentioned before and if it has apologies. Although I have never owned one, they look pretty nice and might fit the bill for what you are trying to do. It was produced in Cali, so better chance that there may be used ones closer to you as opposed to a boat built in the Midwest or east coast. Anyway FWIW.....

 

http://sailingtexas.com/201501/sholder20137.html

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I honestly don't understand what makes people who own beat up Catalina's think they can charge so much for them.

The sort of boats posted here have values artificially inflated by low cost of ownership leading to low seller motivation. Can decay in the driveway with no monthly cost. Put any one of them in a slip and they would quickly drop to almost free.

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I honestly don't understand what makes people who own beat up Catalina's think they can charge so much for them.

The sort of boats posted here have values artificially inflated by low cost of ownership leading to low seller motivation. Can decay in the driveway with no monthly cost. Put any one of them in a slip and they would quickly drop to almost free.

 

 

That, plus they want to get back all the money they've spent on the boat. Natural human impulse, to be sure. Some of these boats are for sale for many years, until the house gets sold and the boat's remains are dragged off to the dump.

 

FB- Doug

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I honestly don't understand what makes people who own beat up Catalina's think they can charge so much for them.

The sort of boats posted here have values artificially inflated by low cost of ownership leading to low seller motivation. Can decay in the driveway with no monthly cost. Put any one of them in a slip and they would quickly drop to almost free.

I agree.

 

Car owners know they won't get the cost of the stereo and mag wheels back. But kelly blue book helps keep them sane.

 

I watched an ancient sailor forced to sell last fall (I don't know if he succeeded) after begging family or friends to help launch and spending a final summer using a step stool to climb in the boat on its slip for a couple hesitant sails, Sad, word was he used to be a sailing madman. But the S2 7.2 probably had great maintenance for the first decade or two, came with typical accessories, and might have been a great deal in October when he needed the same pack of friends and family to help pull the boat back out. How do you find these inland elder sailors? There are no clubs. Do they know how to use craigslist? Better to buy direct instead of waiting til the kids sell the boat a couple years later, full of mold and raccoons, I think.

 

I paid a premium for a factory refit, but got new spars, new rigging, fresh bottom paint, new cushions, fresh batteries, and a clean boat with an antique digital weather thing (removed), a tide clock (kept mostly for its salty look), anchor, inclinometer and good compass. A faulty solar cell was replaced by the yard, and I was able to request upgrades to all LED lights except the galley (fluorescent). Though only 12 years old when The PO died, it was already a microcosm of old man's boat syndrome. Old good quality, old obsolete, some worn parts and cushions allowed to mold when he was unable to look after his boat.

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Save your money and go bigger. an Olson 25 is fast, fun, and generally in demand. You'll never get your money back out of most of these 4ksb's. Expect to lose the cash or use the boat for a longer period to get a return on your investment. Unless you enjoy burning money, buying something to last a few years and get some nice seasons in makes more sense. Save yourself the headache and the frustration of a poor sailing boat. Another good choice is a Merit 25. A lot of these little trailer sailers can eat up a lot of time and money and leave you wanting more boat. If you're already thinking you want "bigger" go that route from the start.

 

My .02

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Save your money and go bigger. an Olson 25 is fast, fun, and generally in demand. You'll never get your money back out of most of these 4ksb's. Expect to lose the cash or use the boat for a longer period to get a return on your investment. Unless you enjoy burning money, buying something to last a few years and get some nice seasons in makes more sense. Save yourself the headache and the frustration of a poor sailing boat. Another good choice is a Merit 25. A lot of these little trailer sailers can eat up a lot of time and money and leave you wanting more boat. If you're already thinking you want "bigger" go that route from the start.

 

My .02

Not ramp launchable, which OP will have to do every time he sails. And the mast can't be stepped by one person, which the OP will often do. So he's limited to a 20-22' daggerboard or swing keel. Any boat he's likely to loose money on. But a $1500 trailerable can still be sold for over $1000 after he's had fun for a couple years. Not going to get more economical than that.

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Save your money and go bigger. an Olson 25 is fast, fun, and generally in demand. You'll never get your money back out of most of these 4ksb's. Expect to lose the cash or use the boat for a longer period to get a return on your investment. Unless you enjoy burning money, buying something to last a few years and get some nice seasons in makes more sense. Save yourself the headache and the frustration of a poor sailing boat. Another good choice is a Merit 25. A lot of these little trailer sailers can eat up a lot of time and money and leave you wanting more boat. If you're already thinking you want "bigger" go that route from the start.

 

My .02

Not ramp launchable, which OP will have to do every time he sails. And the mast can't be stepped by one person, which the OP will often do. So he's limited to a 20-22' daggerboard or swing keel. Any boat he's likely to loose money on. But a $1500 trailerable can still be sold for over $1000 after he's had fun for a couple years. Not going to get more economical than that.

 

 

Hobie cat.

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I know! :) my vote is to skip this stage if what he really wants is a bigger boat. Around BC there is no shortage of marinas and boats that come with a slip. I knew a guy that revived a trailer sailer like this in his front yard over a year then quickly outgrew it.

 

No disrespect meant toward trailer sailers at all, I just get the sense that the OP is letting short term economics dictate his choices.

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having said the above, I had a peek and saw a nice ranger 20 for sale down in bellingham. https://bellingham.craigslist.org/boa/6092525123.html 7k obo. no cabin but it's a put together boat that's ready to go, with a nice outboard.

now compare to this shitbox mac a few pages down. $1800 and it's "missing a few ropes". https://bellingham.craigslist.org/boa/6043801161.html

 

your'e going to drive south for any distance at all, make it worth the trip. http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/57201

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It's a Northwest 650 built by C.K. Wright Marine in North Van. Designed by John Brandlmayr who owned Spencer Boats here.

 

Was originally called the Northwest 21 until that conflicted with a boat built in Seattle or environs.

 

Pretty good little boat but not exactly a sportboat. Probably similar performance to a Cal 20.

 

Not that you need to be told but the price is crazy - even for here. 1/2 that would be closer.

Nailed it. Looks like the guy updated his ad with the model. And yes, I agree, it's seriously overpriced.

 

Not sure if this type boat has been mentioned before and if it has apologies. Although I have never owned one, they look pretty nice and might fit the bill for what you are trying to do. It was produced in Cali, so better chance that there may be used ones closer to you as opposed to a boat built in the Midwest or east coast. Anyway FWIW.....

 

http://sailingtexas.com/201501/sholder20137.html

Nope, hasn't been mentioned. Looks like a nice unit but $5500 without a motor is WAY too much. Brooks is a do-able drive. Could look and return in one really long day of driving.

 

Save your money and go bigger. an Olson 25 is fast, fun, and generally in demand. You'll never get your money back out of most of these 4ksb's. Expect to lose the cash or use the boat for a longer period to get a return on your investment. Unless you enjoy burning money, buying something to last a few years and get some nice seasons in makes more sense. Save yourself the headache and the frustration of a poor sailing boat. Another good choice is a Merit 25. A lot of these little trailer sailers can eat up a lot of time and money and leave you wanting more boat. If you're already thinking you want "bigger" go that route from the start.

 

My .02

I know! :) my vote is to skip this stage if what he really wants is a bigger boat. Around BC there is no shortage of marinas and boats that come with a slip. I knew a guy that revived a trailer sailer like this in his front yard over a year then quickly outgrew it.

 

No disrespect meant toward trailer sailers at all, I just get the sense that the OP is letting short term economics dictate his choices.

having said the above, I had a peek and saw a nice ranger 20 for sale down in bellingham. https://bellingham.craigslist.org/boa/6092525123.html 7k obo. no cabin but it's a put together boat that's ready to go, with a nice outboard.

 

now compare to this shitbox mac a few pages down. $1800 and it's "missing a few ropes". https://bellingham.craigslist.org/boa/6043801161.html

 

your'e going to drive south for any distance at all, make it worth the trip. http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/57201

Yes, I agree with your logic. Going bigger would be better but I am saving for a 40 foot ocean boat but that won't happen for a few more years. The idea with buying a small boat is to gain experience. In all honesty, $5k isn't that much money so if I could get something decent for that and not get my money back, it's not a huge deal. At this point, I think a 20-23' trailer sailer just makes the most sense for me.

 

Wow, that Bluenose 24 is gorgeous but it's way outside my price range.

 

 

Another candidate in Washington: a venerable Catalina 22

 

https://skagit.craigslist.org/boa/6101517543.html

That seems very reasonably priced, even without a motor.

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So that Windrose 22 sold. Buddy was asking $6500 but it looks like it was in pretty good shape. Still think it was priced pretty high for what it was. I wasn't in a hurry to look at it since I thought it was priced too high to move quickly. Guess it's just more proof that the boat market here is crazy.

post-117817-0-86085500-1493075318_thumb.jpg

post-117817-0-99411600-1493075326_thumb.jpg

post-117817-0-39896300-1493075333_thumb.jpg

post-117817-0-72321100-1493075339_thumb.jpg

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I was going to mention a Holder 20 earlier, but as a tall person who own's one - you don't go below unless you have to. They are great lake boats, easy to rig, and very easy to ramp launch. I keep mine in a dry yard with the stick up and can be sailing in 15min. They can be found for ~2k if you look hard enough.

 

Sail with the hatch boards in.

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Price looks right on this guy. Another one I've never heard of. Thought Reinell only made power boats. That motor is probably undersized but that's not a huge deal. My buddy just sold a 2hp motor for $800!

 

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/vernon/reinell-22-sailboat-with-trailer/1257511554?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

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I'd go with that Cat 22 with the nice trailer over the Reinell.

Looks like that add has already been deleted. Guess it was priced well. Also still can't go to the US until I get my passport.

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It's a Northwest 650 built by C.K. Wright Marine in North Van. Designed by John Brandlmayr who owned Spencer Boats here.

 

Was originally called the Northwest 21 until that conflicted with a boat built in Seattle or environs.

 

Pretty good little boat but not exactly a sportboat. Probably similar performance to a Cal 20.

 

Not that you need to be told but the price is crazy - even for here. 1/2 that would be closer.

Nailed it. Looks like the guy updated his ad with the model. And yes, I agree, it's seriously overpriced.

 

Not sure if this type boat has been mentioned before and if it has apologies. Although I have never owned one, they look pretty nice and might fit the bill for what you are trying to do. It was produced in Cali, so better chance that there may be used ones closer to you as opposed to a boat built in the Midwest or east coast. Anyway FWIW.....

 

http://sailingtexas.com/201501/sholder20137.html

Nope, hasn't been mentioned. Looks like a nice unit but $5500 without a motor is WAY too much. Brooks is a do-able drive. Could look and return in one really long day of driving.

 

Save your money and go bigger. an Olson 25 is fast, fun, and generally in demand. You'll never get your money back out of most of these 4ksb's. Expect to lose the cash or use the boat for a longer period to get a return on your investment. Unless you enjoy burning money, buying something to last a few years and get some nice seasons in makes more sense. Save yourself the headache and the frustration of a poor sailing boat. Another good choice is a Merit 25. A lot of these little trailer sailers can eat up a lot of time and money and leave you wanting more boat. If you're already thinking you want "bigger" go that route from the start.

 

My .02

I know! :) my vote is to skip this stage if what he really wants is a bigger boat. Around BC there is no shortage of marinas and boats that come with a slip. I knew a guy that revived a trailer sailer like this in his front yard over a year then quickly outgrew it.

 

No disrespect meant toward trailer sailers at all, I just get the sense that the OP is letting short term economics dictate his choices.

having said the above, I had a peek and saw a nice ranger 20 for sale down in bellingham. https://bellingham.craigslist.org/boa/6092525123.html 7k obo. no cabin but it's a put together boat that's ready to go, with a nice outboard.

 

now compare to this shitbox mac a few pages down. $1800 and it's "missing a few ropes". https://bellingham.craigslist.org/boa/6043801161.html

 

your'e going to drive south for any distance at all, make it worth the trip. http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/57201

Yes, I agree with your logic. Going bigger would be better but I am saving for a 40 foot ocean boat but that won't happen for a few more years. The idea with buying a small boat is to gain experience. In all honesty, $5k isn't that much money so if I could get something decent for that and not get my money back, it's not a huge deal. At this point, I think a 20-23' trailer sailer just makes the most sense for me.

 

Wow, that Bluenose 24 is gorgeous but it's way outside my price range.

ah - BIGGER bigger. Think about something you can keep around in that case, as having a big boat doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. There are a lot of days when you wish you could take the big boat out but for some reason or other, can't - either due to maintenance issues or for being short of crew. since you're in BC have you thought about a T-Bird?

 

yea the Bluenose is pretty sweet. I'm a sucker for that style / shape of boat.

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