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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Tempest

Went to look at a Catalina 22....

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so's the stern vent was busted when the owner got the boat. he stuck the goose on there to keep the water out on the first few sails. after that, everybody liked the goose so it became the o-fish-al stern watch. I still crack up a bit when I see the pic.

😆

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This is pricey, but is pretty cool and would have you sailing quick:

 

picseaward17110a.jpg

 

http://sailingtexas.com/201701/sseaward17110.html

Cool boat. Educate me. How does one step a stayless mast through the deck like this? Lifting and dropping a little mast in a sears boat was easy but a long spar like this, even carbon, just seems scary.

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Sky hook.

 

or, have you ever seen the games at a (Scottish) Highland Fling ?

 

So they get really drunk and in the morning it's up?

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Caber toss and sailing. Two great sports combined in one biathlon. Swimming follows.

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So I was out again racing tonight on that Pocket Rocket in 16knts gusting 26knts. We had all of the sail up and man was it ever fun. Super short race... think it was only an hour but we Won! Beat a J29 and a Benneteau 32.5 (pretty sure that's what it was) overall without time. Got a perfect start and just crushed it with a 4-man crew. Did I mention how much fun it was? The J-boat put the kite up about half way through the last leg, gained some serious ground and we still won by half a boat length.

 

Skol is convinced you won't have fun sailing unless you can get to his hypothetical island under ideal sailing conditions almost as fast as a powerboat with a bad cylinder. Under bad conditions even the fastest boat is a cork. Fun depends on you.

 

Commercial noticed that half the posters cannot comprehend sailing that does not involve a clusterfuck around a buoy followed by a two weeks of ill will as the race committee hears the protests. That influences their boat recommendations.

 

Tempest, you seem comfortable with a temporary boat, and able to repair or replace as surprises turns up, Under those conditions I cannot see you going too far wrong if you stick to your budget, can rig and launch quickly enough to use it, and can camp on it without waking up feeling like a pretzel. Dozens of boats that fit your needs exist in powerboat friendly US Midwest, since nothing else makes sense down here. Ignoring inflation, time, repairs and upgrades, you'll sell a solid boat for its purchase price. Meanwhile you'll have fun and learn new skills. Just make sure it's all there, and remember new sails control and point better.

 

Ignore the bigger is better crowd for now. Trailer sailing has its advantages too. You pick your water. It's easy to relocate or take off for a holiday, and you can chose another lake if the weather sucks. Mistakes can be overcome with muscle. You don't need to depend on others to rig. You won't cry when you scratch it docking. Just have fun.

Thank you, sir, I believe that is all good advice. I see when Skol is coming from though too and I appreciate his input. All the different sides definitely help keep a guy grounded and are stopping me from making impulse purchases. I'm 90% sure at some point I'm going to end up getting a decent deal on a nice little boat that sails "ok" and I'm going to have fun on it.

 

Yep, I'm fine with doing some work so my biggest focus is not overlooking a problem or problems that require serious time and money to fix. As for launching, one thing worth bearing in mind is that I still have to rig and launch my dinghy every time, which is a pain in the ass, so that time can be subtracted from the time taken to rig a bigger boat so what it comes down to is the net difference in rigging time. Also, my dinghy (in it's current state) is a nightmare to single hand! A bigger boat with motor and slides as opposed to a bolt rope will be a huge improvement.

 

Yeah but where's the ANARCHY in that ?!?

 

Tempest seems to have a pretty practical approach, I'm checking in this thread once in a while to see what progress he's made. Obviously it would be best if he could have a custom designed carbon fiber foiling maxi, or perhaps a J-class replica. Shucks I want one too. But in the meantime, out of the boats we can actually find in the real world, and afford, what would you pick?

 

FB- Doug

Thanks Doug :D I'm trying to be as practical as possible. It may be a while before you see pictures of a boat in my driveway but I'm sure it will happen eventually. Just going to wait for the right deal!

 

Starry-eyed, beer guzzling dreamers talking about the Big One and distant sandy shores have plenty of other places on the Internet to solicit fuckery from bullshitters. I'd be really disappointed to see SA turn to the same format, and given what Tempest has posted here in SA I firmly believe that he is not striving to be a part of that camp.

 

A lot of boats mentioned in this thread are perfectly fine, I just don't count a Catalina 22 among them. Or San Juan 24. or a Santana 20 for that matter (and didn't bother to echo the comments about the Reinnel) But hey, you're right that random guy on the Internet always loves to spend other people's money. The Ranger 20 I suggested isn't exactly exotic or particularly fast, but whatever. Neither is a T-Bird. Or the lowly Ericson 23 I suggested back in my first post.

 

What I know is this: playing the craigslist shitbox lottery isn't really saving you any money, it just puts a shitbox in your driveway. If you go this route, fine - I've done it, lots of others have done it. Just make sure the work is worth it - weeks of sanding and fairing, epoxy repair, deck repairs, mast step rebuilding, outboard motors, new rigging, new sails, a few electrical bits, and safety equipment will all cost roughly the same pile of money regardless of what hull you're hanging it from.

 

If you start with a little cabin cruiser that wifey thinks is just adorbs because it looks salty with an sa/d of 11.2, or an under-ballasted, screw decked shitbox that should have been torched or sank sometime in the early 80's, you will have invested the same time, effort, and money as you could have on a Moore 24, or something like a 5.5, or a Dragon that is still a good and fun boat to keep around after you find the Big One, if that day ever actually comes.

 

my .03

Haha, I'm not going to try to convince you that I'm NOT one of those guys but I'm going to move slow and take the sailing thing one day at a time. I absolutely HATE the cold and dreary winter weather of the PNW though so I am trying to get out of here and my job and lack of commitments makes it all plausible if not possible. For now I'm happy saving and day/weekend sailing ;)

 

lol I'm definitely playing the "craigslist shitbox lottery" but I have the advantage of time & patience on my side. Again, no wife, no kids, no liabilities :D

 

Why do you object to the Catalina? I got schooled by one (crewed by three experienced people) able to run a full main and storm jib while I heavily reefed my sails single handing in the gusts Sunday. I didn't buy the 22 to go fast. (Blasphemy I know, but Anarchy means no rules to follow)

.

I agree the Craigslist "Missing a few ropes" syndrome is to be avoided. A complete boat that has been sailing would be much better, the 'old man's boat' I described a few posts up. Out here most 'new' sailors are empty nesters with a bit of money but not much, looking for a small capsize resistant daysailor on small water so they can relive a bit of their youth. Finding a recently used boat without too much rot and all the right parts is key, not a moldy leaf filled coon infested hulk on a rusty trailer that has sunk in the mud.

 

Suggestions may depend on the compromise between good pointing daysailor and camp-able weekender. Easy mast stepping and launching seems to be his first consideration. Ability to handle a coast and moderate draft at launching are good, but he says his ramp isn't as shallow as some in the flatland so a stub keel centerboard or shallow keel might work. Daysailor end would include small Mac/Venture with good owner upgrades, Catalinas in good shape, Oday if he can sleep on it, San Juan mark 2 if he can sleep on it, and your Santana suggestion. Camping ability might push him to the Wright Potter 19, which comes in a reinforced 'wave ready' version and has accumulated impressive cruises plus is easy to launch, Montgomery 17 and a ComPac19 if the pointing is good enough. The Compac 23 would take too long to launch.

 

19-22 foot sail ready with a bunk, solid deck chain plates and mast step, simple rig, reliable centerboard (not rusted in position) and good sails seem to be the keys. The more tunable the rig is the more things he has to install every time he launches, which is every time he sails. Row away factor and available without multiple road trips looking at junk are always considerations. I get the feeling the daysailors with a bunk speak to Tempest more then the microcruisers.

Actually, Anarchy means "without rulers" not "without rules" ;) Sorry in advance for being a smartass. That's actually quite nice to hear about the Catalina 22. Do you think it was a fixed keel version?

 

Yes, you've pretty much hit my intentions on the head and I would agree with you about daysailers with bunk vs. microcruisers.

 

 

I appreciate the devil's advocacy. This is more good stuff to keep my head on straight. You guys are incredibly helpful and I really do appreciate it!!

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Haha, I'm not going to try to convince you that I'm NOT one of those guys but I'm going to move slow and take the sailing thing one day at a time. I absolutely HATE the cold and dreary winter weather of the PNW though so I am trying to get out of here and my job and lack of commitments makes it all plausible if not possible. For now I'm happy saving and day/weekend sailing ;)

 

lol I'm definitely playing the "craigslist shitbox lottery" but I have the advantage of time & patience on my side. Again, no wife, no kids, no liabilities :D

 

I spent 15 years total in Seattle / Puget sound, so I feel your pain about the weather. Ultimate speed isn't so much my thing as is a nice sailing craft in good condition. If you have a regular seat on a sportboat for W/L sailing then I understand your motivations a lot better.

Maybe it's a shock for the advice given thus far, but my last sailboat was a wooden 28' full keel boat. It was too far gone to enjoy it much, but what little I did sold me on wooden shitboxes vs plastic ones. That boat felt like a freight train upwind, and cutting through rollers on the bow was a completely different experience than a fiberglass boat. Big roachy main, small jib. I loved the shit out of it. Leaving the tiller for a minute didn't crash tack your heading. And using an honest-to-god samson post for anchoring felt like cro magnon man strolling through 18th century Paris. I often wonder - how in the hell did things go so wrong between 1965 ~ 1995? Since that boat I can scarcely stand to look at fiberglass boats and imagine owning another 4ksb. Non-racery things like lug sails, gunter rigs, and cabin-free hulls that can easily be rowed have a big appeal in that you can appreciate the craft for what it is, and stop trying to force the utility/convenience/speed of 3-boats into 1 hull. Here in "Fronce", there are many such craft still knocking about like this:

 

not sure if it's fiberglass or wood hull - but the plumb bow, laced main, and beautiful wooden oars and spar are really speaking my language here for a daysailer:

 

post-59955-0-37418300-1493280344_thumb.jpg

 

and a real pretty micro-cruiser I spied from the bridge. I still haven't been able to identify it from the sail logo.

post-59955-0-26301500-1493280361_thumb.jpg

 

There's a lot to love about small boats. In fact, I think big boats are massively overrated. Especially cruisers that spend 99% of their time tied up to the dock and used as second apartments. If you really enjoy sailing your house and are into the lifestyle, great. I'm 110% with you. But some day, marinas are going to kick all this shit to the dump where it belongs and give the space back to people who actually want to sail. </tangential-rant>

 

If you look down this road, I warn you that it's a disease! I only mention it because you don't have a marriage to end or kids to leave starving, so you're in better shape than most sufferers.

 

There was a real sweet custom built (1990's construction) 26 footer down in Portland a couple years ago for 6k. Beautiful boat, new sails, and gorgeous trim below. No trailer but it had a nice tabernacle for setting the stick. It was more than I could afford at the time as my business had just gone tits up, but you see nice boats like that pop up time to time for dimes on the dollar, just because they're wood.

 

All this to say that my thinking now is that upkeep on something that's both pretty and nice sailing is more rewarding than refitting plastic shitboxes from the 70's and 80's. I'm in a similar situation as you and also looking at trailer sailers. Sure - an F-22 would be out-fucking-standing as a fast ride, but cost is an issue so I'll probably end up with something more like I posted above for the reasons stated. More angles to consider on your hunt. cheers

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This is pricey, but is pretty cool and would have you sailing quick:

 

picseaward17110a.jpg

 

http://sailingtexas.com/201701/sseaward17110.html

Cool boat. Educate me. How does one step a stayless mast through the deck like this? Lifting and dropping a little mast in a sears boat was easy but a long spar like this, even carbon, just seems scary.

 

clipper looking bow, springy sheer, and unstayed carbon rig with a fathead main. jesus. this craft is equally offensive to everyone but I'm betting it works. With a tesla motors navigation unit adapted for the water this thing could be the magical drunken sailor ferry we've been all waiting for.

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... Fun depends on you.

...

 

Yeah but where's the ANARCHY in that ?!?

 

Tempest seems to have a pretty practical approach, I'm checking in this thread once in a while to see what progress he's made. Obviously it would be best if he could have a custom designed carbon fiber foiling maxi, or perhaps a J-class replica. Shucks I want one too. But in the meantime, out of the boats we can actually find in the real world, and afford, what would you pick?

 

FB- Doug

 

dollar for dollar, I think it's real tough to beat a Santana 22. they're not the best in light air but flying a chute or biggest genoa you dare to fit is easily manageable with a crew of 2. some of the most fun I've ever had crewing on a boat.

 

attachicon.gifs22_downhill.jpg

 

 

 

Starry-eyed, beer guzzling dreamers talking about the Big One and distant sandy shores have plenty of other places on the Internet to solicit fuckery from bullshitters. I'd be really disappointed to see SA turn to the same format, and given what Tempest has posted here in SA I firmly believe that he is not striving to be a part of that camp.

 

A lot of boats mentioned in this thread are perfectly fine, I just don't count a Catalina 22 among them. Or San Juan 24. or a Santana 20 for that matter (and didn't bother to echo the comments about the Reinnel) But hey, you're right that random guy on the Internet always loves to spend other people's money. The Ranger 20 I suggested isn't exactly exotic or particularly fast, but whatever. Neither is a T-Bird. Or the lowly Ericson 23 I suggested back in my first post.

 

What I know is this: playing the craigslist shitbox lottery isn't really saving you any money, it just puts a shitbox in your driveway. If you go this route, fine - I've done it, lots of others have done it. Just make sure the work is worth it - weeks of sanding and fairing, epoxy repair, deck repairs, mast step rebuilding, outboard motors, new rigging, new sails, a few electrical bits, and safety equipment will all cost roughly the same pile of money regardless of what hull you're hanging it from.

 

If you start with a little cabin cruiser that wifey thinks is just adorbs because it looks salty with an sa/d of 11.2, or an under-ballasted, screw decked shitbox that should have been torched or sank sometime in the early 80's, you will have invested the same time, effort, and money as you could have on a Moore 24, or something like a 5.5, or a Dragon that is still a good and fun boat to keep around after you find the Big One, if that day ever actually comes.

 

my .03

Why do you object to the Catalina? I got schooled by one (crewed by three experienced people) able to run a full main and storm jib while I heavily reefed my sails single handing in the gusts Sunday. I didn't buy the 22 to go fast. (Blasphemy I know, but Anarchy means no rules to follow)

.

I agree the Craigslist "Missing a few ropes" syndrome is to be avoided. A complete boat that has been sailing would be much better, the 'old man's boat' I described a few posts up. Out here most 'new' sailors are empty nesters with a bit of money but not much, looking for a small capsize resistant daysailor on small water so they can relive a bit of their youth. Finding a recently used boat without too much rot and all the right parts is key, not a moldy leaf filled coon infested hulk on a rusty trailer that has sunk in the mud.

 

Suggestions may depend on the compromise between good pointing daysailor and camp-able weekender. Easy mast stepping and launching seems to be his first consideration. Ability to handle a coast and moderate draft at launching are good, but he says his ramp isn't as shallow as some in the flatland so a stub keel centerboard or shallow keel might work. Daysailor end would include small Mac/Venture with good owner upgrades, Catalinas in good shape, Oday if he can sleep on it, San Juan mark 2 if he can sleep on it, and your Santana suggestion. Camping ability might push him to the Wright Potter 19, which comes in a reinforced 'wave ready' version and has accumulated impressive cruises plus is easy to launch, Montgomery 17 and a ComPac19 if the pointing is good enough. The Compac 23 would take too long to launch.

 

19-22 foot sail ready with a bunk, solid deck chain plates and mast step, simple rig, reliable centerboard (not rusted in position) and good sails seem to be the keys. The more tunable the rig is the more things he has to install every time he launches, which is every time he sails. Row away factor and available without multiple road trips looking at junk are always considerations. I get the feeling the daysailors with a bunk speak to Tempest more then the microcruisers.

 

My old man had not 1 but 2 different Ford Pintos. They never blew up during our ownership, but I still hated them. Like Pintos, O'Day, SJ MkII are 2 more boats I'd never buy. There must be a hundred thousand people that are happy with their Catalina. Good for them. I personally hate the way they look. I hate the cheap ass hull-to-deck joints. I hate the oil-canning hulls and I hate the undersized rigging and cheap deck hardware and I hate the fact that people strap on sails from other boats that weren't meant for the boat they have rather than call up the local sailmaker and order fresh inventory. If Catalina sailors don't notice any of these things well good for them. I'm sure many enjoy their boat for what it is and that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't mean I have to like it or recommend it to others.

 

Of the boats you listed, the West Wight Potter 19 is a cult classic and a much better boat, having well earned its reputation. A bit like Westerly bilge keelers on this side of the pond. Good boats both, but not what I'd choose.

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So I was out again racing tonight on that Pocket Rocket in 16knts gusting 26knts. We had all of the sail up and man was it ever fun. Super short race... think it was only an hour but we Won! Beat a J29 and a Benneteau 32.5 (pretty sure that's what it was) overall without time. Got a perfect start and just crushed it with a 4-man crew. Did I mention how much fun it was? The J-boat put the kite up about half way through the last leg, gained some serious ground and we still won by half a boat length.

 

Haha, I'm not going to try to convince you that I'm NOT one of those guys but I'm going to move slow and take the sailing thing one day at a time. I absolutely HATE the cold and dreary winter weather of the PNW though so I am trying to get out of here and my job and lack of commitments makes it all plausible if not possible. For now I'm happy saving and day/weekend sailing ;)

 

lol I'm definitely playing the "craigslist shitbox lottery" but I have the advantage of time & patience on my side. Again, no wife, no kids, no liabilities :D

 

Why do you object to the Catalina? I got schooled by one (crewed by three experienced people) able to run a full main and storm jib while I heavily reefed my sails single handing in the gusts Sunday. I didn't buy the 22 to go fast. (Blasphemy I know, but Anarchy means no rules to follow)

.

I agree the Craigslist "Missing a few ropes" syndrome is to be avoided. A complete boat that has been sailing would be much better, the 'old man's boat' I described a few posts up. Out here most 'new' sailors are empty nesters with a bit of money but not much, looking for a small capsize resistant daysailor on small water so they can relive a bit of their youth. Finding a recently used boat without too much rot and all the right parts is key, not a moldy leaf filled coon infested hulk on a rusty trailer that has sunk in the mud.

 

Suggestions may depend on the compromise between good pointing daysailor and camp-able weekender. Easy mast stepping and launching seems to be his first consideration. Ability to handle a coast and moderate draft at launching are good, but he says his ramp isn't as shallow as some in the flatland so a stub keel centerboard or shallow keel might work. Daysailor end would include small Mac/Venture with good owner upgrades, Catalinas in good shape, Oday if he can sleep on it, San Juan mark 2 if he can sleep on it, and your Santana suggestion. Camping ability might push him to the Wright Potter 19, which comes in a reinforced 'wave ready' version and has accumulated impressive cruises plus is easy to launch, Montgomery 17 and a ComPac19 if the pointing is good enough. The Compac 23 would take too long to launch.

 

19-22 foot sail ready with a bunk, solid deck chain plates and mast step, simple rig, reliable centerboard (not rusted in position) and good sails seem to be the keys. The more tunable the rig is the more things he has to install every time he launches, which is every time he sails. Row away factor and available without multiple road trips looking at junk are always considerations. I get the feeling the daysailors with a bunk speak to Tempest more then the microcruisers.

Actually, Anarchy means "without rulers" not "without rules" ;) Sorry in advance for being a smartass. That's actually quite nice to hear about the Catalina 22. Do you think it was a fixed keel version?

 

Yes, you've pretty much hit my intentions on the head and I would agree with you about daysailers with bunk vs. microcruisers.

 

 

 

Isn't a 'top down' definition inflicted by some language standards committee the antithesis of anarchy? ;)

 

I don't think a 22' fixed keel could be launched on my lake without renting a crane. A guy brought a Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender down from Lake Erie, (18.5 foot Alberg design, 2000# with 31" draft) but told me he had to gang up on it and lift/shove it clear of the extended trailer. I have no idea what he did at the end of the season, or if he'll be back.

 

The 1970's wasn't a decade known for its fine US craftsmanship in general, and in small boats especially. I'll also agree with Skol on the looks of the Catalina and SJ. Though in honesty my own quirky flaired hull didn't immediately speak to me. She met my needs extremely well, her strengths were the weaknesses of my Bucc, and vice versa. I have a shed / boathouse too keep the spare under cover, and couldn't convince myself to be practical with a chain saw so I could sell the trailer and sails. As you said, singe guy freedom. Therefore I did a refit on days I couldn't sail the 22. As long as I treat my lady nice, she accepts the idea that a spare boat spent half the summer getting power tool TLC in my garage while a car 36 years younger sat outside. It helps that she doesn't live in the same town.

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I know you keep saying trailerable,ramp launchable and swing keel but the truth is that after a while you will figure out some way to keep it in the water.

 

When that day comes you will regret not having purchased the boat that is intended to be kept in the water.

 

I know, we used to have a 23 foot trailerable which we trailered once.

 

You would be wise to listen to those who have already walked that path. Otherwise, what's the point of getting advice from all the mofos on SA?

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I don't know if you've seen this add yet https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/pml/boa/6108455676.html $2000 in coquitlam with trailer

Trailer single axel with electric brakes.
2 spinnaker white excellent condition
1 set Quantum racing sails (2x) main and Genoa
1 everyday sail
1 jib
1 Vhf radio
Racing sail only had one short season so they are pretty much brand new.
Service and maintenance
Fresh water boat from Alberta brought it here to BC
Been out of water for over four years

00H0H_k8ywk13vrNh_600x450.jpg

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Pain box special! Bring rail meat and keep the hatches secure. A Lot of boat for 2k

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Well...it IS rebuilt

 

Only problem is...you can't polish a turd.

 

Well 12 Meter they seem to have restored it to the point of the fun fur up on the coach roof! Pretty standard with those.....er......boats. Maybe they can get piece on it on American or Canadian Pickers. They like the obscure and odd.

 

At 10K is huge stretch but stranger things I've seen over the years. As an old car/boat guy you too say: "There is an ass for every seat".

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A sailboat in Twithp? :lol:

 

Middle of cowboy country - the nearest lake is Chelan.

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you mean middle of mountain biking & backpacking country! banks lake is nice, too, and not much further from chelan. great pubs / breweries to be found there in twisp, winthrop.

boat looks relatively tidy, & freshwater sailed. as classic plastics go, you could do a lot worse!

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I spent 15 years total in Seattle / Puget sound, so I feel your pain about the weather. Ultimate speed isn't so much my thing as is a nice sailing craft in good condition. If you have a regular seat on a sportboat for W/L sailing then I understand your motivations a lot better.

Maybe it's a shock for the advice given thus far, but my last sailboat was a wooden 28' full keel boat. It was too far gone to enjoy it much, but what little I did sold me on wooden shitboxes vs plastic ones. That boat felt like a freight train upwind, and cutting through rollers on the bow was a completely different experience than a fiberglass boat. Big roachy main, small jib. I loved the shit out of it. Leaving the tiller for a minute didn't crash tack your heading. And using an honest-to-god samson post for anchoring felt like cro magnon man strolling through 18th century Paris. I often wonder - how in the hell did things go so wrong between 1965 ~ 1995? Since that boat I can scarcely stand to look at fiberglass boats and imagine owning another 4ksb. Non-racery things like lug sails, gunter rigs, and cabin-free hulls that can easily be rowed have a big appeal in that you can appreciate the craft for what it is, and stop trying to force the utility/convenience/speed of 3-boats into 1 hull. Here in "Fronce", there are many such craft still knocking about like this:

 

not sure if it's fiberglass or wood hull - but the plumb bow, laced main, and beautiful wooden oars and spar are really speaking my language here for a daysailer:

 

attachicon.gifrouge_sloop_800.JPG

 

and a real pretty micro-cruiser I spied from the bridge. I still haven't been able to identify it from the sail logo.

attachicon.gifwooden_sloop_800.jpg

 

There's a lot to love about small boats. In fact, I think big boats are massively overrated. Especially cruisers that spend 99% of their time tied up to the dock and used as second apartments. If you really enjoy sailing your house and are into the lifestyle, great. I'm 110% with you. But some day, marinas are going to kick all this shit to the dump where it belongs and give the space back to people who actually want to sail. </tangential-rant>

 

If you look down this road, I warn you that it's a disease! I only mention it because you don't have a marriage to end or kids to leave starving, so you're in better shape than most sufferers.

 

There was a real sweet custom built (1990's construction) 26 footer down in Portland a couple years ago for 6k. Beautiful boat, new sails, and gorgeous trim below. No trailer but it had a nice tabernacle for setting the stick. It was more than I could afford at the time as my business had just gone tits up, but you see nice boats like that pop up time to time for dimes on the dollar, just because they're wood.

 

All this to say that my thinking now is that upkeep on something that's both pretty and nice sailing is more rewarding than refitting plastic shitboxes from the 70's and 80's. I'm in a similar situation as you and also looking at trailer sailers. Sure - an F-22 would be out-fucking-standing as a fast ride, but cost is an issue so I'll probably end up with something more like I posted above for the reasons stated. More angles to consider on your hunt. cheers

If you love those big old wooden boats you'd love the shop across the street from the buddies grandparents house in Cedar/Ladysmith. I was out there brewing beer last weekend and didn't get to talk to the neighbour as much as I would have liked but I did get to see his shop. Sorry I didn't take more photos. He has 3-4 other wooden boats sitting outside. The guy knows how to treat a piece of wood, let me tell ya!

 

 

My old man had not 1 but 2 different Ford Pintos. They never blew up during our ownership, but I still hated them. Like Pintos, O'Day, SJ MkII are 2 more boats I'd never buy. There must be a hundred thousand people that are happy with their Catalina. Good for them. I personally hate the way they look. I hate the cheap ass hull-to-deck joints. I hate the oil-canning hulls and I hate the undersized rigging and cheap deck hardware and I hate the fact that people strap on sails from other boats that weren't meant for the boat they have rather than call up the local sailmaker and order fresh inventory. If Catalina sailors don't notice any of these things well good for them. I'm sure many enjoy their boat for what it is and that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't mean I have to like it or recommend it to others.

 

Of the boats you listed, the West Wight Potter 19 is a cult classic and a much better boat, having well earned its reputation. A bit like Westerly bilge keelers on this side of the pond. Good boats both, but not what I'd choose.

I'm not overly concerned about the look of these GRP boats so much as I am with the sailability and practicality. Wow, that Wright Potter looks shockingly roomy for a 19 footer! I do believe I will put that on the list!

 

Isn't a 'top down' definition inflicted by some language standards committee the antithesis of anarchy? ;)

 

I don't think a 22' fixed keel could be launched on my lake without renting a crane. A guy brought a Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender down from Lake Erie, (18.5 foot Alberg design, 2000# with 31" draft) but told me he had to gang up on it and lift/shove it clear of the extended trailer. I have no idea what he did at the end of the season, or if he'll be back.

 

The 1970's wasn't a decade known for its fine US craftsmanship in general, and in small boats especially. I'll also agree with Skol on the looks of the Catalina and SJ. Though in honesty my own quirky flaired hull didn't immediately speak to me. She met my needs extremely well, her strengths were the weaknesses of my Bucc, and vice versa. I have a shed / boathouse too keep the spare under cover, and couldn't convince myself to be practical with a chain saw so I could sell the trailer and sails. As you said, singe guy freedom. Therefore I did a refit on days I couldn't sail the 22. As long as I treat my lady nice, she accepts the idea that a spare boat spent half the summer getting power tool TLC in my garage while a car 36 years younger sat outside. It helps that she doesn't live in the same town.

Nope. The idea with anarchy is that logic and reason prevail so if some language standards committee is doing good work you would be stupid not agree with their findings but that doesn't mean you can't disagree. Basically, as long as you're not trying to cage or kill people for their beliefs, so long as those beliefs aren't causing any harm then you're good to go. But don't trust my say-so... there's lots of good info on anarchy published by people far smarter than I.

 

Well I'm not going to completely rule out the Catalina 22 but you guys have made a damn good case for getting something that will sail a little better. Again, at the end of the day this is just a temporary boat that will allow me to enjoy the lake and cut my teeth while I'm in this location.

I know you keep saying trailerable,ramp launchable and swing keel but the truth is that after a while you will figure out some way to keep it in the water.

 

When that day comes you will regret not having purchased the boat that is intended to be kept in the water.

 

I know, we used to have a 23 foot trailerable which we trailered once.

 

You would be wise to listen to those who have already walked that path. Otherwise, what's the point of getting advice from all the mofos on SA?

I know. Again, this is a temporary boat. Maybe it's not the best way to spend $5k but it'll get me out on the water.

 

 

Ugh! No! That is a nice looking boat and it's close too! Fuck!

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And here's the photo I forgot to attach for Skol

attachicon.gifP_20170422_143354.jpg

now there's some real old man porn right there. would ya just look at all those skylights and the shelves galore and saws and nice air tank. oh, the boat's pretty nice, too! :lol:

 

 

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If you love those big old wooden boats you'd love the shop across the street from the buddies grandparents house in Cedar/Ladysmith. I was out there brewing beer last weekend and didn't get to talk to the neighbour as much as I would have liked but I did get to see his shop. Sorry I didn't take more photos. He has 3-4 other wooden boats sitting outside. The guy knows how to treat a piece of wood, let me tell ya!

Brewing beer and kicking around boats. ah, PNW! makes me homesick but thanks for the pic and egging me on. Long before I bought my first boat in GRP, I had a mag subscription to Wooden Boat and dreamed of restoring something. T-Birds, Kings Cruiser, and Folkboats had my attention at first, then in SF I discovered the Bear Boats and the Bird Boats. I wanted to rescue a Bear Boat real bad but I ended up moving. WB features more modern stuff, too - like this little mini 6.5 shaped micro-cruiser.

 

http://www.woodenboat.com/blacktip

 

If you're open to little tubs like the Wight Potter, have a look-see on Cruising Anarchy's own Dylan Winter and his Keep Turning Left series. That guy has covered more miles than most and is an ardent defender of pudgy little cruisers. I don't have to remind you, but you're smack dab in the middle of one of the world's most premier sailing and cruising destinations. Scooting across and over to Nanaimo and Victoria, or up north through into passage is easily done. Setting a hook down overnight in a cove with a small boat is easy and a real joy. Somebody could spend the rest of their days exploring what's right there in your back yard with a small boat.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/KeepTurningLeft

 

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If you love those big old wooden boats you'd love the shop across the street from the buddies grandparents house in Cedar/Ladysmith. I was out there brewing beer last weekend and didn't get to talk to the neighbour as much as I would have liked but I did get to see his shop. Sorry I didn't take more photos. He has 3-4 other wooden boats sitting outside. The guy knows how to treat a piece of wood, let me tell ya!

Brewing beer and kicking around boats. ah, PNW! makes me homesick but thanks for the pic and egging me on. Long before I bought my first boat in GRP, I had a mag subscription to Wooden Boat and dreamed of restoring something. T-Birds, Kings Cruiser, and Folkboats had my attention at first, then in SF I discovered the Bear Boats and the Bird Boats. I wanted to rescue a Bear Boat real bad but I ended up moving. WB features more modern stuff, too - like this little mini 6.5 shaped micro-cruiser.

 

http://www.woodenboat.com/blacktip

 

If you're open to little tubs like the Wight Potter, have a look-see on Cruising Anarchy's own Dylan Winter and his Keep Turning Left series. That guy has covered more miles than most and is an ardent defender of pudgy little cruisers. I don't have to remind you, but you're smack dab in the middle of one of the world's most premier sailing and cruising destinations. Scooting across and over to Nanaimo and Victoria, or up north through into passage is easily done. Setting a hook down overnight in a cove with a small boat is easy and a real joy. Somebody could spend the rest of their days exploring what's right there in your back yard with a small boat.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/KeepTurningLeft

 

Yeah last summer I spent two weeks on my buddies dad's 37' boat sailing around desolation sound. Was pretty awesome. Hopefully going to do it again this fall.

post-117817-0-33528900-1493681484_thumb.jpgpost-117817-0-80784200-1493681492_thumb.jpg

 

That link to the guys youtube page didn't work but I'll do a search for it later tonight.

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If you love those big old wooden boats you'd love the shop across the street from the buddies grandparents house in Cedar/Ladysmith. I was out there brewing beer last weekend and didn't get to talk to the neighbour as much as I would have liked but I did get to see his shop. Sorry I didn't take more photos. He has 3-4 other wooden boats sitting outside. The guy knows how to treat a piece of wood, let me tell ya!

Brewing beer and kicking around boats. ah, PNW! makes me homesick but thanks for the pic and egging me on. Long before I bought my first boat in GRP, I had a mag subscription to Wooden Boat and dreamed of restoring something. T-Birds, Kings Cruiser, and Folkboats had my attention at first, then in SF I discovered the Bear Boats and the Bird Boats. I wanted to rescue a Bear Boat real bad but I ended up moving. WB features more modern stuff, too - like this little mini 6.5 shaped micro-cruiser.

 

http://www.woodenboat.com/blacktip

 

If you're open to little tubs like the Wight Potter, have a look-see on Cruising Anarchy's own Dylan Winter and his Keep Turning Left series. That guy has covered more miles than most and is an ardent defender of pudgy little cruisers. I don't have to remind you, but you're smack dab in the middle of one of the world's most premier sailing and cruising destinations. Scooting across and over to Nanaimo and Victoria, or up north through into passage is easily done. Setting a hook down overnight in a cove with a small boat is easy and a real joy. Somebody could spend the rest of their days exploring what's right there in your back yard with a small boat.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/KeepTurningLeft

 

Yeah last summer I spent two weeks on my buddies dad's 37' boat sailing around desolation sound. Was pretty awesome. Hopefully going to do it again this fall.

attachicon.gifIMG_20160829_171216.jpgattachicon.gifIMG_20160901_132346.jpg

 

That link to the guys youtube page didn't work but I'll do a search for it later tonight.

 

 

Is the first one Grace Harbour?

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Short of going back east, there has been few listings in the trailerable sizes out here. If you have set on one or two you like the most, that may be the way.

 

I found this one you may like. This is a Ranger 26-2 project worth having. Lifting keel, 9 foot cockpit.

It can be singlehanded with a smaller jib and even a self tacking jib, with its fractional rig.

It is small for 26 feet, with a short waterline and overhangs both ends. It only displaces 3000lbs. It has a minimal interior. Beautiful lines. Respectable design. Collectable. Worth fixing. Raceable if you wanted...

Production stopped in '82 when folks were paying 18% mortgage rates...

https://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/boa/6111449157.html

(R)anger Management

 

 

Overhead_Stern_Shot.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

^ The brochure ad copy says "Water-cooled pad eyes replace flat cleats". WTF?

I'd buy that boat anyway.

 

 

Me too. That's one of the boats on my short list, although I suspect that the 3,000lb displacement is a design spec not the 'as-built' number.

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Me too. That's one of the boats on my short list, although I suspect that the 3,000lb displacement is a design spec not the 'as-built' number.

FB- Doug

I suspect the water that cooled the padeyes was tongue in cheek for the amount of spray that might come aboard the foredeck...most Pics I see of it sailing upwind in other than flat water shows the foredeck and forward cabin top to be wet. Not surprising for a boat designed as an IOR quarterpounder...it's got a pretty fine bow on it...

i'd with Doug that 3000lbs was the design weight and it likely weighs a good 10% more...so from a trailer oh standpoint you'd need a tow vehicle with a 5k capacity minimum...

Cool boat, rates around 186-192 just like a Santana 525 

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Find a little Beneteau First class 8 

lifting keel and fast 

should be a ole to find one for around 7 or 8 grand 

i saw one for sale this winter when I was in Miami 

used to be a few in Toronto 

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On 5/7/2017 at 7:38 AM, Norse Horse said:

Short of going back east, there has been few listings in the trailerable sizes out here. If you have set on one or two you like the most, that may be the way.

 

I found this one you may like. This is a Ranger 26-2 project worth having. Lifting keel, 9 foot cockpit.

It can be singlehanded with a smaller jib and even a self tacking jib, with its fractional rig.

It is small for 26 feet, with a short waterline and overhangs both ends. It only displaces 3000lbs. It has a minimal interior. Beautiful lines. Respectable design. Collectable. Worth fixing. Raceable if you wanted...

Production stopped in '82 when folks were paying 18% mortgage rates...

https://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/boa/6111449157.html

(R)anger Management

 

 

Overhead_Stern_Shot.jpg

Damn, the posting expired!  I wanted to see pics and prices.  Still no passport though... :/  hopefully  soon!

 

interesting to see one of these for sale so close-ish.

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sailboat/penticton/1994-west-wight-potter-19ft-sailboat-for-sale/1262706235?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

$6500 still sounds steep for a little boat but going to take a look would be a nice afternoon on the bike.

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It was a good deal for the R26-2

Another in Cali 7000 obo http://kelseyville.americanlisted.com/95451/boats-yachts-parts/26-1980-ranger-262_27935611.html

and some more pics from an expired ad http://sailingtexas.com/201009/sranger26103.html

Wonder what you will think of the WWP19 when you see it up close....instant twofootitis ?

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On 01/05/2017 at 6:56 PM, Ishmael said:

 

Is the first one Grace Harbour?

Nope

https://goo.gl/maps/MGt7DEWgoyx

25 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:

It was a good deal for the R26-2

Another in Cali 7000 obo http://kelseyville.americanlisted.com/95451/boats-yachts-parts/26-1980-ranger-262_27935611.html

and some more pics from an expired ad http://sailingtexas.com/201009/sranger26103.html

Wonder what you will think of the WWP19 when you see it up close....instant twofootitis ?

Definitely a cool lookin boat.  So it's short at the waterline but how much work would it be to rig?  I'm guessing lots of stays...

 

Ha, well the WWP19 looks ridiculously stubby so I'm also curious as to how I'll feel about it.  I've gotta say though, after the couple Catalina 22s I've been on I feel like that 22' size is a pretty great starting point.

 

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1 hour ago, Norse Horse said:

Nice boat like the Ranger...https://up.craigslist.org/boa/6121138320.html

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:

Ugh, that S2 is a lover and the price is perfect.  Too bad it's in Michigan.

The sails on that Cat 22 look shitkicked.  I'm really starting to believe what the guys have been saying about the cheapest boats being the most expensive.  Just going to keep waiting and watching and I'm sure I'll find something in the sweet spot.

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Ugh, your gonna kill me with the "don't leave the neighborhood" for the right boat thing.  Your talking about spending 5 grand or so, and you won't spend $400 to get the right boat?  Get some SA'er to go look at it for you and take a butt load of pics for you.  Of all the details and issues he finds. Negotiate a price that takes into account some of the travel costs to go see it/bring it back...Fly in to look at it.  Take SAer to dinner to say "thanks".  Negotiate that seller has to meet you halfway...(that way you know trailer works on the road well)...anything is possible and can be negotiated into the deal for the right boat.  Better to buy the right boat in good shape, then settle for something cause its local...

 

Here's a nice Capri 22 in Salt Lake City.  Gotta be some SAers there that can check it out for you...

http://sailingtexas.com/201701/scapri22192.html

 

Or here's a J-22 in Vancouver WA.  It will out sail most of the boats on this thread.  Make the guy an offer, I'll bet you can get it for 6 grand...

http://sailingtexas.com/201701/sj22137.html

 

Or this one...Iowa is only 30 hours away.  Again, have SA'er pre inspect boat for you.  Negotiate with seller to meet you half way to deliver....

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/64827

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Ugh, your gonna kill me with the "don't leave the neighborhood" for the right boat thing.  Your talking about spending 5 grand or so, and you won't spend $400 to get the right boat?  Get some SA'er to go look at it for you and take a butt load of pics for you.  Of all the details and issues he finds. Negotiate a price that takes into account some of the travel costs to go see it/bring it back...Fly in to look at it.  Take SAer to dinner to say "thanks".  Negotiate that seller has to meet you halfway...(that way you know trailer works on the road well)...anything is possible and can be negotiated into the deal for the right boat.  Better to buy the right boat in good shape, then settle for something cause its local...

 

Here's a nice Capri 22 in Salt Lake City.  Gotta be some SAers there that can check it out for you...

http://sailingtexas.com/201701/scapri22192.html

 

Or here's a J-22 in Vancouver WA.  It will out sail most of the boats on this thread.  Make the guy an offer, I'll bet you can get it for 6 grand...

http://sailingtexas.com/201701/sj22137.html

 

Or this one...Iowa is only 30 hours away.  Again, have SA'er pre inspect boat for you.  Negotiate with seller to meet you half way to deliver....

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/64827

IIRC, the reason for the "don't leave the neighbourhood" thing is because he doesn't have a passport or required documentation to enter the US yet.

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Oh...Well...

Probably worth getting, to ensure ability to get the right boat...but makes more sense now...I'll humbly go back to my corner now.

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10 hours ago, Crash said:

Ugh, your gonna kill me with the "don't leave the neighborhood" for the right boat thing.  Your talking about spending 5 grand or so, and you won't spend $400 to get the right boat?  Get some SA'er to go look at it for you and take a butt load of pics for you.  Of all the details and issues he finds. Negotiate a price that takes into account some of the travel costs to go see it/bring it back...Fly in to look at it.  Take SAer to dinner to say "thanks".  Negotiate that seller has to meet you halfway...(that way you know trailer works on the road well)...anything is possible and can be negotiated into the deal for the right boat.  Better to buy the right boat in good shape, then settle for something cause its local...

I hear what you're saying but I think you need to run some numbers....  I have no problem paying $400 to get the right boat... that would be crazy cheap.  That's probably pretty close to what it would cost me to haul one back from Vancouver or anywhere else within a 500km radius.  This is what a 500km radius looks like.  Almost touches Portland from my location.  On curvy PNW roads portland is about 800km away.

Untitled-1.thumb.jpg.34a7d86f054f192c8551357f9003e106.jpg

My truck gets about 20mpg on the highway and probably 15mpg while towing.  So 500/1.61 = 310.56 miles each direction.  310.56 miles / 20mpg = 15.53gal + 310.56 miles / 15mpg = 20.7gal.  36.23gal * 3.78 = 136.96L * $1.20/L = $164.35.  Now multiply that by about 1.6 if I go all the way to Portland or Calgary, or Vancouver Island (and then I have to pay for a ferry and it's pretty expensive to take an oversized load on the ferry).  That puts us at about $260 for gas alone so $400 gets me a boat from exactly the area I've been looking at the whole time, not including time, wear and tear, stops at princess auto/harbour freight/whereever to get parts to fix a broken trailer (Probably even a little further away, for the right boat).  This is about the absolute max distance a guy is going to want to go in one day, especially if he gets to a boat and finds that the pictures were omitting angles of the deal-breakers.

Here's something else to consider.  I've never done a boat or trailer before but I imported a motorcycle and any vehicle being exported to Kanada needs to be processed with the US border 72hrs before export.  That means they need paperwork on their desk 72hrs before I cross the boarder.  So if I go to look at a boat in the US it means either

a) I need to decide to buy it and process all of the garbage 72hrs before I go to pick it up, essentially sight unseen.

b ) I need to make the trip twice

c) I need to pay to store the boat on the US side of the border and then make the 2hr drive back to Osoyoos to pick it up 3 days later

d) I need to spend 3 days in the US.

The other thing to consider is the buying power of the Kanadian Ruble.  We only get about $0.73 greenbacks per Ruble so a $3000 boat turns into a $4000 boat almost immediately.  On top of that, buying a boat in the US means I'm probably going to pay 12% tax on the purchase price.  In Kanada, I would probably just register the trailer and not pay tax.  I'm not complaining, I'm just saying it's something to consider.

 

So when you think about all that, going further to pick up a boat starts to get really expensive really quickly.  If I were looking at $80k yachts it would totally make sense to invest $5k in getting the right boat from the right place by flying, getting surveys done, paying to have it shipped.... but on a boat that's probably worth well under $10k it doesn't make much sense to fly to Michigan to look at a $3k US boat and then pay someone to ship it home.  I'm not in a big hurry so I can wait for something to pop up around here.  Not sure why this process would be killing you... unless you're being forced to screw around on the internet and offer up free advice after not reading the whole thread.

 

For the record, I am working on the passport and will hopefully have it soon.  I probably will end up buying a boat in the US since it looks like there are some deals to be had down there.  In the meantime, I'll keep looking at stuff up here.  Getting SA members to pre-inspect boats for me isn't a bad idea but it does put me at the mercy of others and no one likes a pest.

 

The last consideration.... looking at all of these boats is giving me lots of time to hear what you guys have to say about them.  I'm learning more and more every day.  I just read 2 big articles on blisters and layup problems on GRP boats this morning.  This time isn't being wasted and I do appreciate all the input.  I'm going to keep posting adds and BSing with you guys until the right boat pops up.

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8 hours ago, Tempest said:

I hear what you're saying but I think you need to run some numbers....  I have no problem paying $400 to get the right boat... that would be crazy cheap.  That's probably pretty close to what it would cost me to haul one back from Vancouver or anywhere else within a 500km radius.  This is what a 500km radius looks like.  Almost touches Portland from my location.  On curvy PNW roads portland is about 800km away.

Untitled-1.thumb.jpg.34a7d86f054f192c8551357f9003e106.jpg

My truck gets about 20mpg on the highway and probably 15mpg while towing.  So 500/1.61 = 310.56 miles each direction.  310.56 miles / 20mpg = 15.53gal + 310.56 miles / 15mpg = 20.7gal.  36.23gal * 3.78 = 136.96L * $1.20/L = $164.35.  Now multiply that by about 1.6 if I go all the way to Portland or Calgary, or Vancouver Island (and then I have to pay for a ferry and it's pretty expensive to take an oversized load on the ferry).  That puts us at about $260 for gas alone so $400 gets me a boat from exactly the area I've been looking at the whole time, not including time, wear and tear, stops at princess auto/harbour freight/whereever to get parts to fix a broken trailer (Probably even a little further away, for the right boat).  This is about the absolute max distance a guy is going to want to go in one day, especially if he gets to a boat and finds that the pictures were omitting angles of the deal-breakers.

Here's something else to consider.  I've never done a boat or trailer before but I imported a motorcycle and any vehicle being exported to Kanada needs to be processed with the US border 72hrs before export.  That means they need paperwork on their desk 72hrs before I cross the boarder.  So if I go to look at a boat in the US it means either

a) I need to decide to buy it and process all of the garbage 72hrs before I go to pick it up, essentially sight unseen.

b ) I need to make the trip twice

c) I need to pay to store the boat on the US side of the border and then make the 2hr drive back to Osoyoos to pick it up 3 days later

d) I need to spend 3 days in the US.

The other thing to consider is the buying power of the Kanadian Ruble.  We only get about $0.73 greenbacks per Ruble so a $3000 boat turns into a $4000 boat almost immediately.  On top of that, buying a boat in the US means I'm probably going to pay 12% tax on the purchase price.  In Kanada, I would probably just register the trailer and not pay tax.  I'm not complaining, I'm just saying it's something to consider.

 

So when you think about all that, going further to pick up a boat starts to get really expensive really quickly.  If I were looking at $80k yachts it would totally make sense to invest $5k in getting the right boat from the right place by flying, getting surveys done, paying to have it shipped.... but on a boat that's probably worth well under $10k it doesn't make much sense to fly to Michigan to look at a $3k US boat and then pay someone to ship it home.  I'm not in a big hurry so I can wait for something to pop up around here.  Not sure why this process would be killing you... unless you're being forced to screw around on the internet and offer up free advice after not reading the whole thread.

 

For the record, I am working on the passport and will hopefully have it soon.  I probably will end up buying a boat in the US since it looks like there are some deals to be had down there.  In the meantime, I'll keep looking at stuff up here.  Getting SA members to pre-inspect boats for me isn't a bad idea but it does put me at the mercy of others and no one likes a pest.

 

The last consideration.... looking at all of these boats is giving me lots of time to hear what you guys have to say about them.  I'm learning more and more every day.  I just read 2 big articles on blisters and layup problems on GRP boats this morning.  This time isn't being wasted and I do appreciate all the input.  I'm going to keep posting adds and BSing with you guys until the right boat pops up.

Tempest,

You've brought up some good points that I hadn't considered.  12% to bring in a US boat huh?  So much for NAFTA...and I'll admit that I had forgotten to reverse the "why boats in Kanada are such a great buy" perspective when your looking to the South.  Finally, I'll make your numbers worse and say if your truck gets 20 mpg, you'll likely only get 11-12 MPG towing most of the boats suggested here...

 

That said, I have followed and read the entire thread.  IF I haven't remembered every little detail, well, I apologize, but your thread, and SA in general is a hobby, not my life's cause.  Along those lines, I'm happy to, and try hard to admit/apologize when I get things wrong.  The intent of my little rant was only to say that within your total budget, there may be a way and a boat located farther afield then most of us tend to look.  Every piece of advice I've ever read on buying used boats, or of buying used cars all say the same thing. Don't limit yourself to your local area.  The cost of fixing broken stuff, or replacing worn out sails, etc could well cost more then the "overhead" costs of getting a boat from farther away, especially when the availability of boats "local" to you are limited.

 

As I like boats, and don't mind helping  a fellow sailor, I'd happily go look at a couple boats for someone...yea, if you ask me to look a a bunch of boats, over an extended period of time, I'd begin to get aggravated...you don't seem to be that guy...I did assume you'd need to make 2 trips to buy the boat...the $400 number I threw out was the go look at it the first time, make the deal, get the paperwork so you could go get stuff sorted.  Then there would be a 2nd trip to go get the boat...Most times folks have a number for buying the boat, with a recognition that there will be additional costs for survey, transit, etc...so I assumed that you had some travel budget outside of the "cost of the boat".  I also know what they say about assumptions, so bad on me for not clarifying that pre-rant...

 

On the other hand, part of my suggestion was to have the seller delivery halfway...it would reduce your cost, and act as a decent test of the trailer...to cut out some of those stops at Harbor Freight or where ever.  Also you'll find gas down here in the land lead by the guy with bad hair to be cheaper than gas in Kanada...in some places almost half.  So going farther afield doesn't necessarily add gas costs at the rate you were calculating - so that's kinda good news right?

 

Lastly, apparently I had the "sarcasm" font selected, when I meant to have the "light hearted humor" font selected...I was trying to suggest out of the box thinking, not trying to beat you up with the box...So again, I apologize.

Crash

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14 minutes ago, Crash said:

Tempest,

You've brought up some good points that I hadn't considered.  12% to bring in a US boat huh?  So much for NAFTA...and I'll admit that I had forgotten to reverse the "why boats in Kanada are such a great buy" perspective when your looking to the South.  Finally, I'll make your numbers worse and say if your truck gets 20 mpg, you'll likely only get 11-12 MPG towing most of the boats suggested here...

 

That said, I have followed and read the entire thread.  IF I haven't remembered every little detail, well, I apologize, but your thread, and SA in general is a hobby, not my life's cause.  Along those lines, I'm happy to, and try hard to admit/apologize when I get things wrong.  The intent of my little rant was only to say that within your total budget, there may be a way and a boat located farther afield then most of us tend to look.  Every piece of advice I've ever read on buying used boats, or of buying used cars all say the same thing. Don't limit yourself to your local area.  The cost of fixing broken stuff, or replacing worn out sails, etc could well cost more then the "overhead" costs of getting a boat from farther away, especially when the availability of boats "local" to you are limited.

 

As I like boats, and don't mind helping  a fellow sailor, I'd happily go look at a couple boats for someone...yea, if you ask me to look a a bunch of boats, over an extended period of time, I'd begin to get aggravated...you don't seem to be that guy...I did assume you'd need to make 2 trips to buy the boat...the $400 number I threw out was the go look at it the first time, make the deal, get the paperwork so you could go get stuff sorted.  Then there would be a 2nd trip to go get the boat...Most times folks have a number for buying the boat, with a recognition that there will be additional costs for survey, transit, etc...so I assumed that you had some travel budget outside of the "cost of the boat".  I also know what they say about assumptions, so bad on me for not clarifying that pre-rant...

 

On the other hand, part of my suggestion was to have the seller delivery halfway...it would reduce your cost, and act as a decent test of the trailer...to cut out some of those stops at Harbor Freight or where ever.  Also you'll find gas down here in the land lead by the guy with bad hair to be cheaper than gas in Kanada...in some places almost half.  So going farther afield doesn't necessarily add gas costs at the rate you were calculating - so that's kinda good news right?

 

Lastly, apparently I had the "sarcasm" font selected, when I meant to have the "light hearted humor" font selected...I was trying to suggest out of the box thinking, not trying to beat you up with the box...So again, I apologize.

Crash

Sorry Crash, my reply may have came off as a 'little' prickly.  You posted links to all full keel boats so I though maybe you read the first few posts and threw in a reply.

 

Yeah, taxed on used goods... gotta love it, eh?  I'm not entirely sure if the export restrictions apply to trailers and boats but I'm betting they do.  You might be right about the mileage but I do have a cummins 12 valve and they are notoriously good on fuel... it does use a slush box to get the power to the ground though :/  Who knows... I've yet to pull 5k# but a little more fuel isn't that big of a deal.  I might save a little on fuel down south but I find these days I can barely leave the house without spending $500 so I'm betting a boat buying adventure would be the same.  If I were to buy a boat down there I would tow it back and store it at the border.  That's what I did with my motorcycle.  Was super cheap to leave it, in the trailer, at a U-Haul yard for 4 days.

 

For sure.  I appreciate the offer but I'm betting a guy bugging you to look at a bunch of boats would get old real fast!  Maybe I'll save that for one really nice prize in a far off local.  As for the seller meeting half way, I'm betting most won't be willing to do that and, if they did, I would feel obligated to buy so I think I'd be better off just lining up a bunch of boats to look at and making the rounds.  May as well make the trip worth it.

 

It's all good :)  Gotta have thick skin on the interwebs :D

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2 minutes ago, Crash said:

http://www3.telus.net/sail/sj23/

And rates around 240, so slower then the S2 6.9. I sent you, but faster then a CAt 22 or Capri 22...

Yep, probably a lumbering beast and a little pricey.  At this point I'm already familiar with the lack-luster SJ reviews but figured I'd post for reference.

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5 minutes ago, Tempest said:

As nice or nicer than a Cat. No tiller pilot included though. Easy to singlehand with the main in the cockpit and winches aft. A better sailer than the C22.

The price is at the top of the market, it would have to be mint.

 

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6 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Sorry Crash, my reply may have came off as a 'little' prickly.  You posted links to all full keel boats so I though maybe you read the first few posts and threw in a reply.

 

Yeah, taxed on used goods... gotta love it, eh?  I'm not entirely sure if the export restrictions apply to trailers and boats but I'm betting they do.  You might be right about the mileage but I do have a cummins 12 valve and they are notoriously good on fuel... it does use a slush box to get the power to the ground though :/  Who knows... I've yet to pull 5k# but a little more fuel isn't that big of a deal.  I might save a little on fuel down south but I find these days I can barely leave the house without spending $500 so I'm betting a boat buying adventure would be the same.  If I were to buy a boat down there I would tow it back and store it at the border.  That's what I did with my motorcycle.  Was super cheap to leave it, in the trailer, at a U-Haul yard for 4 days.

 

For sure.  I appreciate the offer but I'm betting a guy bugging you to look at a bunch of boats would get old real fast!  Maybe I'll save that for one really nice prize in a far off local.  As for the seller meeting half way, I'm betting most won't be willing to do that and, if they did, I would feel obligated to buy so I think I'd be better off just lining up a bunch of boats to look at and making the rounds.  May as well make the trip worth it.

 

It's all good :)  Gotta have thick skin on the interwebs :D

OBTW, that S2 6.9 I sent you has a ballasted, lifting daggerboard.  It lifts vertically into the hull, so trailering/launching much easier...

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=216

 

S2 6.9 (22'), 1985 sailboat

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7 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:

As nice or nicer than a Cat. No tiller pilot included though. Easy to singlehand with the main in the cockpit and winches aft. A better sailer than the C22.

The price is at the top of the market, it would have to be mint.

 

Definitely top of the market.  Funny, those post '2000' references almost make a guy feel like that stuff was done recently until you realize that most of that stuff was done 10 years ago.... what happened to the time?   We'll let that guy simmer on the market and see what happens but I've been seeing a lot of boats disappearing from the classifieds at really high prices.   Maybe the millennials aren't as broke as they claim? 

6 minutes ago, Crash said:

OBTW, that S2 6.9 I sent you has a ballasted, lifting daggerboard.  It lifts vertically into the hull, so trailering/launching much easier...

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=216

 

S2 6.9 (22'), 1985 sailboat

Guaranteed that is a $10k boat by the time it's sitting in my driveway.  I'll keep an eye on the listing though.  The one Norse Horse posted looks almost identical and it was only $3k USD so that guy is a little spendy.

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The daggerboard on the 6.9 is a good feature. Also notice the rollers on the trailer to make life easy. A good looker,too.

Note the San Juans had several window configurations, some of which look better than others.

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2 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:

The daggerboard on the 6.9 is a good feature. Also notice the rollers on the trailer to make life easy. A good looker,too.

Note the San Juans had several window configurations, some of which look better than others.

Not gonna lie, I kinda like that single window airplane look :D

Just did a quick PHRF search on the S2 7.0 and found a reference to it being in the 260s... yikes.  The 6.9 would definitely be a better boat.  If it were listed at $3k I'd just pay for a survey and a flat bed to the border.

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Note that when you change your boat registration number, you will get a letter asking for the gst.

The various water police on the Oky :Dwill have the option of fining you 2hunerandsumthin when they are checking your preservers for mold and looking at your fire extinguisher date. Even the game warden has the power of an RCMP. I haven't imported so I can't comment there. You can register any homebuilt or POS trailer her in BC and you pay the value of the trailer  gst at the time of insurance, so it is a good idea to have the value of the trailer on the bill of sale to expedite the process.

Cheers

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Re the S2s. The .odd numbers (6.7, 6.9, 7.9, 9.1 & 10.3) were the racer/cruisers and are pretty quick for their size. The .even numbers (7.0, 8.0, 9.2, 11.0, etc) were pure cruisers with no real emphasis on being quick

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1 hour ago, Norse Horse said:

Note that when you change your boat registration number, you will get a letter asking for the gst.

The various water police on the Oky :Dwill have the option of fining you 2hunerandsumthin when they are checking your preservers for mold and looking at your fire extinguisher date. Even the game warden has the power of an RCMP. I haven't imported so I can't comment there. You can register any homebuilt or POS trailer her in BC and you pay the value of the trailer  gst at the time of insurance, so it is a good idea to have the value of the trailer on the bill of sale to expedite the process.

Cheers

Only if the auxiliary engine is 10 hp or greater.  Under 10 hp, no registration required.

One more reason to buy used Canadian.  When buying an unregistered boat within Canada, some people don't report it and skip the PST/GST.  I doubt CRA  or Minister of Finance will go through the effort of tracking the sales of unregistered $5k boats just to collect $600.   Its possible they would, but I knew a PST auditor from the Minister of Finance and he said one of his mandates was to make sure he could collect more than $100/hour of his time spent on a file.

If the boat is from the US, Canadian Border Services will want all the sales documents and make sure it is paid.

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3 hours ago, Norse Horse said:

Note that when you change your boat registration number, you will get a letter asking for the gst.

The various water police on the Oky :Dwill have the option of fining you 2hunerandsumthin when they are checking your preservers for mold and looking at your fire extinguisher date. Even the game warden has the power of an RCMP. I haven't imported so I can't comment there. You can register any homebuilt or POS trailer her in BC and you pay the value of the trailer  gst at the time of insurance, so it is a good idea to have the value of the trailer on the bill of sale to expedite the process.

Cheers

What about if you build the trailer yourself.  Do you pay GST again for the total value after paying GST on every part you bought to build it?  That wouldn't surprise me.  Taxing the sale of used goods is criminal.  Too many fucking cash grabs in this country.  :angry:

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A couple of points that will make your life easier, if you decide to import.  The three day wait rule does not apply to boats and trailers.  Navigating the bureaucracy is easier if the trailer has an intact, legible mfr's sticker. This site is helpful:  http://boating.ncf.ca/buy-usa.html

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Some advice from the Voice Of Experience.

If you import a boat, use a customs broker to handle the paperwork. They only cost a few bucks and will save you countless headaches as well as expense.

Under no circumstances listen to anything that CBSA or CRA tell you about the process. They are hopelessly ignorant of their own procedures - an American trucker knew more about it than them in my case. If I had followed their instructions it would have cost me $Thousand$.

If you use a broker the process is quick and painless.

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7 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:

I told the lady at the insurance 300 bucks value so that might be a reasonable figure for them.

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/6126194227.html

Did you see this on R26-2 project, no engine has trailer, in Tacoma, so not far to the border.

Love the 26. I had a 22 for awhile. It was a fixed keel of course. Good quality all round for there design/build.

SJB is quite right: Do use a customs brokers. You won't regret it. The wrong border guy with the wrong paperwork they  can make your life miserable quickly. They are looking for a reason to do that unless you are not commercial vendor or carrier. Most of them know squat boats either; or care. You might get the right guy as he's coming up to lunch/dinner break and just get it done. But that's the exception not the rule. Trust me on this!

 

 

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The San Juan for double the money is a MUCH better value !   - work is (mostly) done  ( it's never finished !) and the trailer looks sweet !

Best luck, and you are TOTALLY CORRECT in taking your time.  As my dear old dad used to say when I'd get the moto-lust for some piece of rolling stock:  "Boy,  there's a LOT of iron out there..."

Learn all you can and shop carefully.  Sorry about the international intrigue though - that REALLY should be a lot easier but we simply must keep a lid on you sweater-Mexicans, you see.

 

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9 hours ago, melan said:

A couple of points that will make your life easier, if you decide to import.  The three day wait rule does not apply to boats and trailers.  Navigating the bureaucracy is easier if the trailer has an intact, legible mfr's sticker. This site is helpful:  http://boating.ncf.ca/buy-usa.html

Thanks & I'll check it out.

8 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Some advice from the Voice Of Experience.

If you import a boat, use a customs broker to handle the paperwork. They only cost a few bucks and will save you countless headaches as well as expense.

Under no circumstances listen to anything that CBSA or CRA tell you about the process. They are hopelessly ignorant of their own procedures - an American trucker knew more about it than them in my case. If I had followed their instructions it would have cost me $Thousand$.

If you use a broker the process is quick and painless.

What does a customs broker cost, typically?  Ha!  Listen to a government official?  Who in their right mind would do that?

4 hours ago, Norse Horse said:

I told the lady at the insurance 300 bucks value so that might be a reasonable figure for them.

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/6126194227.html

Did you see this on R26-2 project, no engine has trailer, in Tacoma, so not far to the border.

No, but that looks like a lot of work for $5k with no motor....

3 hours ago, Great Red Shark said:

The San Juan for double the money is a MUCH better value !   - work is (mostly) done  ( it's never finished !) and the trailer looks sweet !

Best luck, and you are TOTALLY CORRECT in taking your time.  As my dear old dad used to say when I'd get the moto-lust for some piece of rolling stock:  "Boy,  there's a LOT of iron out there..."

Learn all you can and shop carefully.  Sorry about the international intrigue though - that REALLY should be a lot easier but we simply must keep a lid on you sweater-Mexicans, you see.

 

Funny... when I was younger I was just excited to throw my money at whatever piece of junk limped past.  Thankfully age and experience has carried me past that.

LOL Sweater Mexicans?  Never heard that before.  Love it :D

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I wouldn't get to hung up on the price in the listing...9 times out of 10, market reality will set in.  Or they're spouse will tell them to take the offer, etc, etc.  If you make an offer that doesn't get accepted, you can always say, "well, I'm still interested, so if you change your mind, let me know..." and within a week or two, you might well hear back from the seller.  If you find something better in the meantime, well, so be it.  The other thing you can always do is offer what is asked, but stipulate whatever is not included or being offered at additional cost) be included in the base deal.  If they say no, you say the same thing..."ok, but let me know if you change your mind, cause I'm still interested..."

So if you like a boat, but think its not priced fairly...make an offer you think is fair and see what happens.

 

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2 hours ago, Crash said:

I wouldn't get to hung up on the price in the listing...9 times out of 10, market reality will set in.  Or they're spouse will tell them to take the offer, etc, etc.  If you make an offer that doesn't get accepted, you can always say, "well, I'm still interested, so if you change your mind, let me know..." and within a week or two, you might well hear back from the seller.  If you find something better in the meantime, well, so be it.  The other thing you can always do is offer what is asked, but stipulate whatever is not included or being offered at additional cost) be included in the base deal.  If they say no, you say the same thing..."ok, but let me know if you change your mind, cause I'm still interested..."

So if you like a boat, but think its not priced fairly...make an offer you think is fair and see what happens.

 

Just talked to him on the phone.  He said it's in really great shape.  Had bottom paint done last year.  It sounds like it's been a trailer sailed lake boat for most of it's life.  I like that it's newer than everything else I've looked at.  He said the sails are "brand new" but I'm going to take that with a grain of salt.  He wants $1100 for the motor.  Might be a good score if a guy could get the whole package for $4k.  Trailer isn't registered in Kanada which could be a good bargaining chip.

The only thing I don't really like is that it's not a faster boat but I think we've established that I don't really "need" a super fast boat.  Speed is a bonus on a good boat at a good price.  I would prefer an S2 6.9 though lol.

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20 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Just talked to him on the phone.  He said it's in really great shape.  Had bottom paint done last year.  It sounds like it's been a trailer sailed lake boat for most of it's life.  I like that it's newer than everything else I've looked at.  He said the sails are "brand new" but I'm going to take that with a grain of salt.  He wants $1100 for the motor.  Might be a good score if a guy could get the whole package for $4k.  Trailer isn't registered in Kanada which could be a good bargaining chip.

The only thing I don't really like is that it's not a faster boat but I think we've established that I don't really "need" a super fast boat.  Speed is a bonus on a good boat at a good price.  I would prefer an S2 6.9 though lol.

The engine he has is a step up in quality. It is a realistic starter boat. Look for stress cracks in the gel coat to see if the hull was stressed or is too thin anywhere, how he stores the sails and the chainplate area.

Like new truck loans, home renos and antifouling, mast raising and launching will get stale after 3 years and you will be ready to moor or move up.:D

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I like the look of those Raymond Hunt designed O'Days and Cals.  Its a good looking and well proportioned boat.  And a great starter boat.  But yeah, the 6.9 is a good 41 secs a mile faster...give or take.  

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Its clean.   I think it will suit your temporary boat goals and gets you on the water as often as any trailer launch with a cabin.   You have your buddy's boat to crew on for your racing fix.    The price seems to be in a ballpark that could work for both parties and your risk is small when a problem emerges.  It's a boat.   Something will break.   The motor is more than adequate but powerboaters have no interest in a long shaft so you should be able to negotiate a price.  If not a large prop 6 will easily give you hull speed and maybe save a couple pounds on the transom.   

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Hi all.

I've just arrived in Vancouver and I'm looking for a keeler in the 25 to 33 foot range. I've got no idea of models of boats over her, (I'm from NZ). 

I see there's plenty for sale around here. I'm looking at 2006ish sailboats. 

If you could throw a few models at me I cun use the interweb to take a looks.

 

Cheers in advance. 

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6 hours ago, Fat Ivan said:

Hi all.

I've just arrived in Vancouver and I'm looking for a keeler in the 25 to 33 foot range. I've got no idea of models of boats over her, (I'm from NZ). 

I see there's plenty for sale around here. I'm looking at 2006ish sailboats. 

If you could throw a few models at me I cun use the interweb to take a looks.

 

Cheers in advance. 

What is your budget and what style are you looking for? There is a thread in Cruising Anarchy with good deals on Craigslist or start your own with some more info..

 

There is lots to choose from depending how handy you are. You don't need an offshore boat to sail inshore here, unless you plan to sail home.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Norse Horse said:

What is your budget and what style are you looking for? There is a thread in Cruising Anarchy with good deals on Craigslist or start your own with some more info..

 

There is lots to choose from depending how handy you are. You don't need an offshore boat to sail inshore here, unless you plan to sail home.

 

 

The budget for a sailboat is around 12k CAN. I'm used to tidy and well maintained boats. I dont need a project. I'd rather something well sorted where someone else has done all the hard work and I just step on and sail for the summer. 

I can fix just about anything on a boat. Thanks for the tips. I'll take a look. 

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