Tempest

Went to look at a Catalina 22....

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8 minutes ago, Blitz said:

The story supposedly is the Roger didn't want to use his name until he knew the boats would be a success.  I think the whole thing started as a college project.

His real name is Roger Venture. He changed his name later to sound more solid.

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This group sure does become interested and active when somebody talks about buying a boat. Makes me wonder if we have a large percentage of sailboat professionals....in some way, shape, or form. I would consider that both good and bad in several ways.

Thought worth a decent amount with several homes, I have a lot more time than spending money. So I consider ways to make money with my current interest...boating. So far, I am seeing that gel coating and outboards seem to offer potential. Possibly trailers...if I fine tuned sand blasting and painting. The rub is that Colorado is a somewhat miserable boating state. Too bad that I don't like growing pot.....just have a bad feeling about that...especially with Sessions as the AG and the Trumps in the wine business.

While on the subject of used boats and how they hold up, I am generally impressed by the build quality of my 7.9 S2. It seems a bit tankish in sturdiness and weight, I wonder why it is so popular with the old boat racing crowd.

Meanderings seem to fit this thread a bit.

 

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16 hours ago, Blitz said:

The story supposedly is the Roger didn't want to use his name until he knew the boats would be a success.  I think the whole thing started as a college project.

I believe it was his MBA thesis...he based the business and the design of boats on maximizing how many he could fit on a shipping trailer and thereby keeping the costs down. 

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The weather looks great for the Long Weekend, but not so much for listings for you.

Another comparable to the Ventures and the Santana 2023 is the Hunter 23. It was made in the 80's to 1992 There is a 23.5 model as well. One sold early this year out here. There is a short review by Mr Perry here. http://www.boats.com/reviews/perry-design-review-hunter-235/#.WRxlbsa1vIU

 

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On 5/16/2017 at 0:08 PM, softdown said:

This group sure does become interested and active when somebody talks about buying a boat. Makes me wonder if we have a large percentage of sailboat professionals....in some way, shape, or form.

 

Talking "what boat" is great fun and near and dear to a lot of us. I suspect most pros could give two fucks about bigging up boats on the internet.

The most predictable thing about an SA "what boat" thread is that it will get resurrected by a WETA sailor after thread is several weeks dead to recommend the WETA :D

BTW- OP you should have a look at the WETA despite it not meeting most of your requirements.

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Stay tuned folks... Might have a line on a cheap Erikson 23.  Apparently it's been sitting for a while though so it'll be interesting to see what kind of condition it's in.

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Oh boy.  Here we go!  The adventure begins.  Hopefully I haven't made too big of a mistake.

 

Ericson 23-2 (I believe) $1200.

I spent a good amount of time going over it and the only real issue I found is the bit of a dent in the hull where it's sitting on the trailer.  I know this isn't fantastic but I'm hoping it's because the wood runner is rotten.  I'm sure you guys will tell me if I've made a huge mistake but otherwise everything looks good.  One of the inner stays is snapped at the upper swage but she said it happened because they were lowering the mast with a truck or something and it doesn't sound like they knew what they were doing.  Should be an easy and not too expensive repair.  The glass all the way around the boat looks really good clean and solid!  There is nothing that remotely looks like water seepage from the deck and the chain plates look really stout.

The boat is filthy overall but it's all surface dirt and bug crud.  With some elbow grease it should clean up brilliantly!  The white stuff is just the gel coat getting powdery but there are ZERO spider cracks or glass damage anywhere on the boat.   I also know a hot young lady who does boat polishing so this is a perfect excuse to get her over to polish.... uhhh... the boat....

P_20170518_185752.jpg

P_20170518_191049.jpg

P_20170518_185033.jpg

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That dent looks pretty big.  If it's sat like that for a while it might not pop out.  If theres a bulkhead there thats soft you might be able to force it back out when you replace it.  How the sail inventory?

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4 minutes ago, Blitz said:

That dent looks pretty big.  If it's sat like that for a while it might not pop out.  If theres a bulkhead there thats soft you might be able to force it back out when you replace it.  How the sail inventory?

It's definitely not ideal.  Apparently the boat sat for 4 years and the dent is on the south facing side so it most likely took some Okanagan sun.  The cubby where the dent is has 2 melted candles in it if that tells you anything.  There is a bulkhead ahead of the dent.  I'm hoping the thing can be forced back out but who knows.  I'll go take more photos.

 

Sail inventory is good!  Main, Genoa, Jib (guessing 100%) all in really good shape and then a storm jib that needs some slight repairs.  The other sails have lots of crinkle, stitching looks really good and they are pretty clean.  No kite but that's ok.

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10 minutes ago, Tempest said:

It's definitely not ideal.  Apparently the boat sat for 4 years and the dent is on the south facing side so it most likely took some Okanagan sun.  The cubby where the dent is has 2 melted candles in it if that tells you anything.  There is a bulkhead ahead of the dent.  I'm hoping the thing can be forced back out but who knows.  I'll go take more photos.

 

Sail inventory is good!  Main, Genoa, Jib (guessing 100%) all in really good shape and then a storm jib that needs some slight repairs.  The other sails have lots of crinkle, stitching looks really good and they are pretty clean.  No kite but that's ok.

Those trailer bunks are shot replace them and make sure the bunk height is set so the majority of the boats weight is on the keel. Ideally you want the bunk supports under a bulkhead if you can make that happen. Inspect the rig very carefully if they bound something up tight enought break a shroud there could be other damage.  It looks like it will clean up well, interior not bad either. Congrats.

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9 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Interior of the cubby of the dent

P_20170518_200229.jpg

 

Congratulations and all that... but WTF is this?? it looks like two buckets of foamy shit plopped in there upside down. Is this what is causing the dimple/dent in the hull?

Seriously, cool boat and I think you are off on a cool adventure. Looking forward to seeing some sailing pics!

FB- Doug

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Congratulations and all that... but WTF is this?? it looks like two buckets of foamy shit plopped in there upside down. Is this what is causing the dimple/dent in the hull?

Seriously, cool boat and I think you are off on a cool adventure. Looking forward to seeing some sailing pics!

FB- Doug

Those are the 2 candles that melted in the same heat that probably caused the dent.

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A friend in NC had an old Macgregor 21 that he bought to use on Lake Lure - it'd been sitting for about 8 years, and had a "trailer dent" like yours.   We suspended the boat from his garage rafters, heated the area w/a heat gun, and pushed the dent back out from the inside.   When we launched it, the dented area was a little "flexy" (you could see it move slightly when the boat bounced).  

I thought he'd be fine w/a foam bulkhead (think like in a kayak to prevent the deck from oil-canning) - but, he didn't want to lose the space such a stiffener would consume.  We sanded the interior around the dent clean, and epoxied 3 layers of 10 oz cloth to an area about 6" beyond the dent's perimeter.   He's had it on the trailer/lake for 8 years now, and has had no issues.   

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Cool, I always liked the looks of those E-23s.  Definitely replace ALL the shrouds/stays before you sail. 

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You can order stays from Pro-Tech in North Van or even make up your own with Norseman fittings.

Looks like the wiring needs to be updated and safety checked.

The bones are good and it is a fast cruiser.

I have a Johnston 9.9 long leg I don't need now, I changed the stern on my 20ft.

Here comes summer this weekend!

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4 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

A friend in NC had an old Macgregor 21 that he bought to use on Lake Lure - it'd been sitting for about 8 years, and had a "trailer dent" like yours.   We suspended the boat from his garage rafters, heated the area w/a heat gun, and pushed the dent back out from the inside.   When we launched it, the dented area was a little "flexy" (you could see it move slightly when the boat bounced).  

I thought he'd be fine w/a foam bulkhead (think like in a kayak to prevent the deck from oil-canning) - but, he didn't want to lose the space such a stiffener would consume.  We sanded the interior around the dent clean, and epoxied 3 layers of 10 oz cloth to an area about 6" beyond the dent's perimeter.   He's had it on the trailer/lake for 8 years now, and has had no issues.   

Thanks, that gives me hope.  Unfortunately I won't be suspending this lady from my garage rafters but I see what you're gettin' at.  I'm going to have to sort the trailer out too.  It obviously wasn't designed for this boat.  I'm betting the whole thing can be shortened and those bunks could probably be moved forward.

2 hours ago, CruiserJim said:

Cool, I always liked the looks of those E-23s.  Definitely replace ALL the shrouds/stays before you sail. 

Really?  I'm going to go through them all and do an inspection but they really don't look bad from what I've seen.  The one that snapped was definitely because they fucked up raising (or lowering) the mast.  The base on one of the spreaders was obviously broken and welded (and they didn't do a super job).

1 hour ago, Slick470 said:

Check out the Ericson forum at http://www.ericsonyachts.org lots of good help and a fairly active owners group. There is also an Ericson Yachts facebook group.

Congrats on the purchase!

Thanks, will do.

1 hour ago, Norse Horse said:

You can order stays from Pro-Tech in North Van or even make up your own with Norseman fittings.

Looks like the wiring needs to be updated and safety checked.

The bones are good and it is a fast cruiser.

I have a Johnston 9.9 long leg I don't need now, I changed the stern on my 20ft.

Here comes summer this weekend!

Thanks Paul, that's exactly what I wanted to hear :)  There's a guy in Penticton who also does rigging so I might contact him too just out of convenience.

Interesting.... what would you like to get for that unit? :D  Does it have an alternator?

15 minutes ago, mcsailor0303 said:

Congrats man!  Way to be patient!  Have a blast learning to sail her!

Thanks!  I feel like the patients paid off!

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So is Ericson out of business?  Can a guy still get parts for these things?

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12 hours ago, Tempest said:

Those are the 2 candles that melted in the same heat that probably caused the dent.

Ah so, can get the scale now. The paint doesn't look discolored, it can't have been too bad. I would suspect it's partly from sitting on a trailer that pushes in between the webs. I'd bet that dent will come right again with the boat sitting in the water.

Ericsons are great boats, good design, well built. I'd suggest getting the rigging set to rights and getting her sailing again. It would be far too easy to start fixing this and re-doing that, next thing you know the season is gone and you either have to move to North Carolina or pack it up for the winter.

FB- Doug

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Just now, Tempest said:

So is Ericson out of business?  Can a guy still get parts for these things?

yup, went under in 1990. Some of the larger boats were built by Pacific Seacraft for a few years, but most of the models went away with Ericson. 

A lot of the parts on these boats are made by other companies so yes you can still get similar replacement parts, sometimes new old stock, sometimes current production parts. It will all depend on what you need. Rig Rite has a lot of the original rigging parts for a lot of these old boats, Foss Foam may have rudder molds, etc. Replaceable items like standing rigging, lifelines, blocks, running rigging, can be fabricated or purchased locally or by order from rigging shops and the like. 

get the boat cleaned up and then figure out what you need. Ask here or on the Ericson site and you will be pointed in a direction.

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3 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Ah so, can get the scale now. The paint doesn't look discolored, it can't have been too bad. I would suspect it's partly from sitting on a trailer that pushes in between the webs. I'd bet that dent will come right again with the boat sitting in the water.

Ericsons are great boats, good design, well built. I'd suggest getting the rigging set to rights and getting her sailing again. It would be far too easy to start fixing this and re-doing that, next thing you know the season is gone and you either have to move to North Carolina or pack it up for the winter.

FB- Doug

No, the glass/paint/gellcoat looks great on the whole boat!  Just needs a spit-shine!  Oh boy, I hope you are right.... I really, really hope you're right lol. 

I hear ya!  The boat looks pretty good as is.  Honestly, it's the trailer that needs the most work.

3 minutes ago, Slick470 said:

yup, went under in 1990. Some of the larger boats were built by Pacific Seacraft for a few years, but most of the models went away with Ericson. 

A lot of the parts on these boats are made by other companies so yes you can still get similar replacement parts, sometimes new old stock, sometimes current production parts. It will all depend on what you need. Rig Rite has a lot of the original rigging parts for a lot of these old boats, Foss Foam may have rudder molds, etc. Replaceable items like standing rigging, lifelines, blocks, running rigging, can be fabricated or purchased locally or by order from rigging shops and the like. 

get the boat cleaned up and then figure out what you need. Ask here or on the Ericson site and you will be pointed in a direction.

Awesome.  More good info!  Only part I think I would really need at this point is that spreader base.  Would be nice to replace that poorly welded POS.  I just registered on the Ericson site.  Now that I have an Ericson I don't need you SA jerks anymore lol (just kidding, of course :p)

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congrats, and cool!  - the Ericson 23 is a sharp little boat when spruced up, and plenty tough for beating around the strait. EYO is a great site. All the mindshare you could ask for is there, including suppliers and refit info.  The hull dent looks a bit of a bummer but can be corrected with enough elbow grease. you may need some kind of internal form to push it out, and depending on depth of the shallow fill, glass, and fair it.  welcome to the Bruce King club. 

btw - ballenger spars down in cali has a great kit to reinforce the mast at the spreaders.   just call 'em up. spendy but beefy. 

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1 hour ago, Skol said:

congrats, and cool!  - the Ericson 23 is a sharp little boat when spruced up, and plenty tough for beating around the strait. EYO is a great site. All the mindshare you could ask for is there, including suppliers and refit info.  The hull dent looks a bit of a bummer but can be corrected with enough elbow grease. you may need some kind of internal form to push it out, and depending on depth of the shallow fill, glass, and fair it.  welcome to the Bruce King club. 

btw - ballenger spars down in cali has a great kit to reinforce the mast at the spreaders.   just call 'em up. spendy but beefy. 

Thanks Skol :D  Bet you're happy I didn't get a piece of shit lol.

I just took a pressure washer to her and she already looks 100% better.  I'm starting to notice all of the little things now.  Found some spidering in the fiberglass, little bit of water damage around the port chain plate but it doesn't look too bad.  Looks like most of the deck hardware is going to need to be re-sealed which I'm guessing isn't that big of a deal.

Hopefully the dent won't be too hard to correct but time will tell.

How spendy are we talkin'?  I'm starting to notice that all of these companies have REALLY terrible websites.  They must be super old school.

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To have all the stays made up might be 1000 bucks with you installing. You can drill and tap the aluminum bits without too much trouble for your spreaders and install new boots on the end.

Your boom looks like a Dyer with those ends. There are some solid boom vangs and kickers you can use to hold the boom up instead of the topping lift you can check out. They also help the main sail in light wind.

You could try a cube heater on your dent once the pad pressure is off,and use the inside wedge idea, as mentioned above.

You can polish up that gel coat really nice. Maine Sail's instructions. https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/tips-for-a-great-buff-wax.117266/

More pic's!

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Ericson are indeed the champagne of 70's production plastic classics, some with more cork damage than others. Much has been written about plastic liner boats, most rooted in misinformation and contempt.  My first sailboat was an ericson 27 and I loved it, but I didn't have the cash to finish a refit before having to move.  Some of my plight is recorded here in SA and on EYO under the same user name. 

The spar repair kit was about 700 usd including new spreaders and brackets, iirc. What happens is that one or both of the cast metal spreader brackets develops a crack and breaks, giving the spreader room to wiggle under load. As a result a dimple forms in the mast. Check yours - you might be lucky and not need it but it's a known weak point.  

Once the stick and rigging are upgraded, fear no winds nor seas. The bulbous and odd shapes of the ericson boats love breeze - and a lot of it. They are tender when first meeting the wind but stiffen up as it piles on. The rudder will lose grip before you can dunk the rail. Also - the slug keel will point higher than you might guess.  Not fast boats but not complete slugs, either, and every one I've helmed up to 35 are a real joy to sail. Looking  forward to your progress. 

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Yes really replace all the standing rigging, it's probably original to the boat so it is ancient, it doesn't last forever like fiberglass. Having owned and sailed a Santana 20 for 7 years dropping and raising the rig countless times it is difficult to imagine snapping a shroud during the process.  I've bent a turnbuckle and once kinked the back stay so badly it had to be replaced, but never snapped anything.  Makes me suspect about the condition of the wire on your boat or the story the seller told you. You made a good buy so you've got some room in the budget to attend to essentials.  Keeping the rig up is essential!  Also for your own peace of mind. 

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Agreed, I have and would replace standing rigging on any older used boat bought, just cos.

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Since you're an SA'er first and we love to spend other people's money, it's time to talk about what kind of rigging.  On your E-23 you can probably easily shave 20-30lbs of weight aloft if you go synthetic on the standing rigging:  colligo dux, new england ropes HSR heat set stuff, or since this is a trailer sailer, regular dyneema would be just fine assuming the shrouds and stays are stored out of the sun.  Rig a ground anchor somewhere and use your diesel truck to pre-stretch the shrouds and set your splices.  ditto on all the halyards.upgrade the sheaves for rope (as they are surely v-sheaves for wire), and use soft shackles on everything - no hard parts. L-36.com has loads of good info here. 
  
few other items - Ericson glassed the chainplates into the hull. It's rare for them to pull out but not unheard of. People have different philosophies on repair. my vote is for a hole through the hull and chainplate, SS thru-bolt + loads of exoxy.  Some swap over to external chainplates but this kills your sheeting angles on the jib, and you need all the help you can get. 

Since you're single and don't have kids, I'd seal off the stanchion holes and ditch the lifelines unless you plan racing, in which case rip it all out and reseal it anyway with epoxy, then drill new holes and use G10 backing plates where you're able.  synthetic on the lifelines is also nicer than the plastic covered wire.

at the bow, you're going to want to carefully un-fuck any and everything that's been bolted to it  - nav lights, ill-advised anchor fittings, cleats, and the pulpit.   pull it all out, dig out the core a bit in the holes and epoxy the shit out of everything, then redrill and re-install.  it's a biggish job but straight forward. 

 

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5 hours ago, Skol said:

Since you're an SA'er first and we love to spend other people's money, it's time to talk about what kind of rigging.  On your E-23 you can probably easily shave 20-30lbs of weight aloft if you go synthetic on the standing rigging:  colligo dux, new england ropes HSR heat set stuff, or since this is a trailer sailer, regular dyneema would be just fine assuming the shrouds and stays are stored out of the sun.  Rig a ground anchor somewhere and use your diesel truck to pre-stretch the shrouds and set your splices.  ditto on all the halyards.upgrade the sheaves for rope (as they are surely v-sheaves for wire), and use soft shackles on everything - no hard parts. L-36.com has loads of good info here. 
  
few other items - Ericson glassed the chainplates into the hull. It's rare for them to pull out but not unheard of. People have different philosophies on repair. my vote is for a hole through the hull and chainplate, SS thru-bolt + loads of exoxy.  Some swap over to external chainplates but this kills your sheeting angles on the jib, and you need all the help you can get. 

Since you're single and don't have kids, I'd seal off the stanchion holes and ditch the lifelines unless you plan racing, in which case rip it all out and reseal it anyway with epoxy, then drill new holes and use G10 backing plates where you're able.  synthetic on the lifelines is also nicer than the plastic covered wire.

at the bow, you're going to want to carefully un-fuck any and everything that's been bolted to it  - nav lights, ill-advised anchor fittings, cleats, and the pulpit.   pull it all out, dig out the core a bit in the holes and epoxy the shit out of everything, then redrill and re-install.  it's a biggish job but straight forward. 

 

V 21 is cautious but I agree.   Though Its a freshwater boat that sat idle for years, how do you fuck up raising a mast enough to break a a healthy stay but not destroy the mast or step?  I can see kinking a stay, but failure by the fitting sounds suspicious for a weak spot.   You do get to inspect the rigging every weekend, but you don't want to have to waste a weekend off because you don't trust it.  You definitely don't want to catch the mast mid lake.   Look very carefully at each stay end for any separation of cable fibers, chalky corrosion, anything that looks less then perfect.   Run your hands down the entire cable feeling for any broken strands, etc.  I once heard a high pitched ping on the bucc above the whine of wind in the halyard.   I wasn't sure what it was so I fell off, nervously looked around, shrugged and kept sailing.  When I dropped the mast at the end of a rocking great day I found a single broken strand 1/3 of the way down.   The shroud of course got swapped out before the next sail, but I consider myself lucky that I heard the ping above the boat and wind noises, and very lucky the other strands were stronger.   Err on the side of caution,, and replace.   Rely on guys like Skol who know the design to point out weak points before they fail.   We commonly do a similar 'fix' to the chainplates on old Buccaneers, since the factory through bolt was undersized and only lasts for a few decades.   He also gave great advice on rebedding the deck fittings, as a 'sooner then later' project.   Buy marine grade stuff (4200?) after you epoxy the old holes through the core, and do a little at a time as your schedule permits but ONLY ON DAYS YOU CANNOT BE SAILING. :)    

Skol:   Synthetic shrouds for weekending?   Lets prioritize getting some sailing pictures, with polishing girl included of course.    Are there any through hulls, centerboard related areas or other 'sink the boat' spots Tempest needs to inspect before he splashes his new toy?    Check the water inlet, hose and clamps on the head for sure. Then check it again.  Don't ask me if I ever forgot.      

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He's gonna get bored of Pond sailing real quick when he's got the strait of Georgia in his back yard :D And Hell yeah!  Synthetic is so much nicer than wire and I think splicing rope for DIY guys is better than swaging terminals. Once you add up all the hard parts for terminals and bottle screws or turnbuckles for wire, changing over to synthetic just isn't that much more expensive on a small boat. Also - soft sail hanks on a synthetic forestay will make handling genoas a lot easier. Lastly, since this is a ramp launched boat it's going to be easier with synthetic. 

Fair bottom, good rigging, a strong spar and spreaders, and crisp sails are the important parts. Strip everything inside to the hull, replace any thruhulls with marlon and worry about the rest over the winter. 

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Okanogan might be a bit bigger than a pond. Good wind there too. Not sure but I'm thinking it would be at least a 5 hour drive to the straight o Georgia through some big rocks . If you do make it , let us know and we will meet you anywhere in the gulf islands! Nice job on the thread and your purchase! 

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Hey Guys, just got back from Vancouver.  I'll reply to all of these posts tomorrow and post a whole bunch more pictures :)

Monsters Inc: The Strait is about 4hrs from here and I could launch in Horseshoe Bay or go another hour and launch in Squamish.  My parents have a house on Keats island but, unfortunately, I don't think there's anywhere to moor a boat.  At some point that vessel will see the salt.  Maybe not this year but probably next.

Thanks, and sounds good.  I'd love to sail the gulf islands :D

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On 5/19/2017 at 9:03 PM, Norse Horse said:

To have all the stays made up might be 1000 bucks with you installing. You can drill and tap the aluminum bits without too much trouble for your spreaders and install new boots on the end.

Your boom looks like a Dyer with those ends. There are some solid boom vangs and kickers you can use to hold the boom up instead of the topping lift you can check out. They also help the main sail in light wind.

You could try a cube heater on your dent once the pad pressure is off,and use the inside wedge idea, as mentioned above.

You can polish up that gel coat really nice. Maine Sail's instructions. https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/tips-for-a-great-buff-wax.117266/

More pic's!

Good call!  I just talked to a rigging guy and he said it's probably going to be about $900 but I'm going to need turnbuckles too so it's getting expensive.  I just peeled the duct tape footballs apart at the end of the spreaders and, surprisingly, the boots look almost brand new.  Nice and flexible.

Well that's good because I've been going through everything and it doesn't look like I got a boom vang with the boat so I guess I'm going to have to buy one.  I have an extra fiddle block from my dingy that looks about the same size and build quality as the main fiddleblock on the ericson so I may just need to buy a single block to get me started.  I hear what you're saying though... those spring loaded vangs make life a LOT easier.

The trailer needs some serious attention so I'll have to get the boat off at some point to deal with in.  Not sure how I'm going to deal with the dent in the driveway but maybe I can tie the boat to a tree or my truck and pull that bunk off.  If I can figure out better placement for the bunk I can cut it and reweld it pretty easily.

Awesome link.  Pretty sure my gel coat will shine up like that.  What do you do with the decks though?  I'm guessing you don't want them polished!  There's got to be some sort of cut and protection type thing though to stop the gel coat from oxidizing.

On 5/20/2017 at 3:08 AM, Skol said:

Ericson are indeed the champagne of 70's production plastic classics, some with more cork damage than others. Much has been written about plastic liner boats, most rooted in misinformation and contempt.  My first sailboat was an ericson 27 and I loved it, but I didn't have the cash to finish a refit before having to move.  Some of my plight is recorded here in SA and on EYO under the same user name. 

The spar repair kit was about 700 usd including new spreaders and brackets, iirc. What happens is that one or both of the cast metal spreader brackets develops a crack and breaks, giving the spreader room to wiggle under load. As a result a dimple forms in the mast. Check yours - you might be lucky and not need it but it's a known weak point.  

Once the stick and rigging are upgraded, fear no winds nor seas. The bulbous and odd shapes of the ericson boats love breeze - and a lot of it. They are tender when first meeting the wind but stiffen up as it piles on. The rudder will lose grip before you can dunk the rail. Also - the slug keel will point higher than you might guess.  Not fast boats but not complete slugs, either, and every one I've helmed up to 35 are a real joy to sail. Looking  forward to your progress. 

Well that's good to hear.  Cork damage?  Core damage?  Luckily this is an okanagan boat and stuff doesn't really seem to rot here.  Pretty sure the decks are very solid on this boat.  Guessing the rest of the hull isn't cored.  There's a hole in the transom for the fuel line to pass though and it's just 5/16" of pure fiberglass.

Jesus... guessing that's $700 US too.  This is definitely getting expensive.  What is the problem with the old spreaders?  Why would they dent the mast?  It looks good right now.  No dents that I can see.

On 5/20/2017 at 8:21 AM, CruiserJim said:

Yes really replace all the standing rigging, it's probably original to the boat so it is ancient, it doesn't last forever like fiberglass. Having owned and sailed a Santana 20 for 7 years dropping and raising the rig countless times it is difficult to imagine snapping a shroud during the process.  I've bent a turnbuckle and once kinked the back stay so badly it had to be replaced, but never snapped anything.  Makes me suspect about the condition of the wire on your boat or the story the seller told you. You made a good buy so you've got some room in the budget to attend to essentials.  Keeping the rig up is essential!  Also for your own peace of mind. 

Right.  The rigger I talked to said rig update every 12-15 years.  Pretty sure it's time.  Wait till you see the photos :/

On 5/20/2017 at 9:24 AM, Skol said:

Since you're an SA'er first and we love to spend other people's money, it's time to talk about what kind of rigging.  On your E-23 you can probably easily shave 20-30lbs of weight aloft if you go synthetic on the standing rigging:  colligo dux, new england ropes HSR heat set stuff, or since this is a trailer sailer, regular dyneema would be just fine assuming the shrouds and stays are stored out of the sun.  Rig a ground anchor somewhere and use your diesel truck to pre-stretch the shrouds and set your splices.  ditto on all the halyards.upgrade the sheaves for rope (as they are surely v-sheaves for wire), and use soft shackles on everything - no hard parts. L-36.com has loads of good info here. 
  
few other items - Ericson glassed the chainplates into the hull. It's rare for them to pull out but not unheard of. People have different philosophies on repair. my vote is for a hole through the hull and chainplate, SS thru-bolt + loads of exoxy.  Some swap over to external chainplates but this kills your sheeting angles on the jib, and you need all the help you can get. 

Since you're single and don't have kids, I'd seal off the stanchion holes and ditch the lifelines unless you plan racing, in which case rip it all out and reseal it anyway with epoxy, then drill new holes and use G10 backing plates where you're able.  synthetic on the lifelines is also nicer than the plastic covered wire.

at the bow, you're going to want to carefully un-fuck any and everything that's been bolted to it  - nav lights, ill-advised anchor fittings, cleats, and the pulpit.   pull it all out, dig out the core a bit in the holes and epoxy the shit out of everything, then redrill and re-install.  it's a biggish job but straight forward. 

 

Ha!  I'm a motorcycler so I know ALL about spending ridiculous amounts of money to save weight.  At the end of the day I've found the cheapest way to shave 20-30lbs is by going on a diet.  Mamma didn't raise no fool ;)

The chainplates look good aside from a tiny bit of rot/expansion on the one bulkhead.  None of my chain plates are glassed in and I don't see any evidence of replacement although they have been fucked with a bit as you will see in the photos.

There are no lifelines on this boat and no evidence that there ever was so that save me the issue of dealing with them.  As for epoxying stuff, wouldn't it be better to use the same resin that was used to build the hull?  Epoxy is obvious when used in contrast with the original material, degrades in UV and is incompatible with gel coat, right?  Otherwise I agree, I would like to reseal everything at the very least but guaranteed I'm going to run into stripped out fasteners so I might as well un-fuck everything.

On 5/20/2017 at 3:19 PM, Lark said:

V 21 is cautious but I agree.   Though Its a freshwater boat that sat idle for years, how do you fuck up raising a mast enough to break a a healthy stay but not destroy the mast or step?  I can see kinking a stay, but failure by the fitting sounds suspicious for a weak spot.   You do get to inspect the rigging every weekend, but you don't want to have to waste a weekend off because you don't trust it.  You definitely don't want to catch the mast mid lake.   Look very carefully at each stay end for any separation of cable fibers, chalky corrosion, anything that looks less then perfect.   Run your hands down the entire cable feeling for any broken strands, etc.  I once heard a high pitched ping on the bucc above the whine of wind in the halyard.   I wasn't sure what it was so I fell off, nervously looked around, shrugged and kept sailing.  When I dropped the mast at the end of a rocking great day I found a single broken strand 1/3 of the way down.   The shroud of course got swapped out before the next sail, but I consider myself lucky that I heard the ping above the boat and wind noises, and very lucky the other strands were stronger.   Err on the side of caution,, and replace.   Rely on guys like Skol who know the design to point out weak points before they fail.   We commonly do a similar 'fix' to the chainplates on old Buccaneers, since the factory through bolt was undersized and only lasts for a few decades.   He also gave great advice on rebedding the deck fittings, as a 'sooner then later' project.   Buy marine grade stuff (4200?) after you epoxy the old holes through the core, and do a little at a time as your schedule permits but ONLY ON DAYS YOU CANNOT BE SAILING. :)    

Skol:   Synthetic shrouds for weekending?   Lets prioritize getting some sailing pictures, with polishing girl included of course.    Are there any through hulls, centerboard related areas or other 'sink the boat' spots Tempest needs to inspect before he splashes his new toy?    Check the water inlet, hose and clamps on the head for sure. Then check it again.  Don't ask me if I ever forgot.      

Take a look at the photos below and let me know what you think but I'm guessing the consensus is going to be "new rig NOW".

On 5/21/2017 at 0:59 AM, Skol said:

He's gonna get bored of Pond sailing real quick when he's got the strait of Georgia in his back yard :D And Hell yeah!  Synthetic is so much nicer than wire and I think splicing rope for DIY guys is better than swaging terminals. Once you add up all the hard parts for terminals and bottle screws or turnbuckles for wire, changing over to synthetic just isn't that much more expensive on a small boat. Also - soft sail hanks on a synthetic forestay will make handling genoas a lot easier. Lastly, since this is a ramp launched boat it's going to be easier with synthetic. 

Fair bottom, good rigging, a strong spar and spreaders, and crisp sails are the important parts. Strip everything inside to the hull, replace any thruhulls with marlon and worry about the rest over the winter. 

Lake should be fine for now but it is a trailer sailer and my truck will pull it to the salt when it's ready ;)

How much more expensive?  Sounds like serious coin and I don't want to deal with the issue of UV degradation.  SS sounds like less money and less maintenance.  The cost of the shrouds wouldn't be the big issue, it would probably be all of the extra shit I would need to replace.

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What do you guys think about the bottom?  Should I worry about bottom paint?  She certainly isn't smooth as a baby's butt... looks like old bottom paint has been sanded off and it's a little rough but not too bad.  I'm guessing it'll be about $2000 for bottom paint so I'm wondering if that's something I should save for a DIY project for next spring.

What do you think about this for a motor?  Was listed for $500 and now they've jacked it to $650, which is irritating.

https://classifieds.castanet.net/details/7.5_hp_mercury_long_leg_motor/3083342/

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Fiberglass repairs:  Lots of those spider cracks on the deck above the hull/deck joint.

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The interior needs a little love but nothing too bad.  I'd love to know why the glass is caved in around the chain plate :angry: Idiots are the reason we can't have nice things.

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The deck and cockpit look better now that they've been pressure washed but, like an idiot, when I pulled those candles out of the cubby down below I forgot them in the cockpit and they melted in the sun the next day so now I have to figure out how to clean the fucking wax off the deck.  Have you ever wanted to punch your own face? ...because I did.

The mast pivot shows signs of a struggle so with the broken stay, the rewelded spreader and the bent mast pivot, something obviously went down.

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Was also thinking I might be able to buy the gear and do the rigging myself.  Any opinions on that subject?  The money I'd save would probably cover the tools and I like tools.

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Not sure what I'm seeing there with the spreader fitting, but don't like it.

The broken strands on the shroud right at the swage fitting indicate that the swage did not lead fair in the direction of the shroud so the strands flex and fatigue right at the end of the fitting.  The rest of them may have the same problem, so good to tend to it now.  

I'd suggest trying to raise the rig before ordering new, just to look it all over and perhaps spot some other issues to address.

DIY rigging?  Sure, things like Norseman or Sta-lock fittings can be used.  My guess is you would not save much money vs just having a new set swaged up while you devote your time to some of the other projects.  

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33 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Was also thinking I might be able to buy the gear and do the rigging myself.  Any opinions on that subject?  The money I'd save would probably cover the tools and I like tools.

Get yourself a Loos gauge for your stays, lots of tuning to enjoy there. There is some work involved to plumb the mast and rake that you might not want to try, but why not, you can tap the brains on SA.

That old rig is DEAD, dried up, dog gone done.:( good pics.

The wood buckhead rot is a bit of a project.

Who beat on that port nav light?:lol: Candleman?

Not a hint of sealant under those fittings on the deck...

You can use a screw post to support the boat for repairs. Duplex nails go right through asphalt.

More pics of the bottom!!

If you have a solar panel you won't need a charger on your outboard, unless you have a 12v cooler.

Cheers

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3 hours ago, Tempest said:

Good call!  I just talked to a rigging guy and he said it's probably going to be about $900 but I'm going to need turnbuckles too so it's getting expensive.  I just peeled the duct tape footballs apart at the end of the spreaders and, surprisingly, the boots look almost brand new.  Nice and flexible.

Well that's good because I've been going through everything and it doesn't look like I got a boom vang with the boat so I guess I'm going to have to buy one.  I have an extra fiddle block from my dingy that looks about the same size and build quality as the main fiddleblock on the ericson so I may just need to buy a single block to get me started.  I hear what you're saying though... those spring loaded vangs make life a LOT easier.

The trailer needs some serious attention so I'll have to get the boat off at some point to deal with in.  Not sure how I'm going to deal with the dent in the driveway but maybe I can tie the boat to a tree or my truck and pull that bunk off.  If I can figure out better placement for the bunk I can cut it and reweld it pretty easily.

Awesome link.  Pretty sure my gel coat will shine up like that.  What do you do with the decks though?  I'm guessing you don't want them polished!  There's got to be some sort of cut and protection type thing though to stop the gel coat from oxidizing.

Well that's good to hear.  Cork damage?  Core damage?  Luckily this is an okanagan boat and stuff doesn't really seem to rot here.  Pretty sure the decks are very solid on this boat.  Guessing the rest of the hull isn't cored.  There's a hole in the transom for the fuel line to pass though and it's just 5/16" of pure fiberglass.

Jesus... guessing that's $700 US too.  This is definitely getting expensive.  What is the problem with the old spreaders?  Why would they dent the mast?  It looks good right now.  No dents that I can see.

Right.  The rigger I talked to said rig update every 12-15 years.  Pretty sure it's time.  Wait till you see the photos :/

Ha!  I'm a motorcycler so I know ALL about spending ridiculous amounts of money to save weight.  At the end of the day I've found the cheapest way to shave 20-30lbs is by going on a diet.  Mamma didn't raise no fool ;)

+

3 hours ago, Tempest said:

  As for epoxying stuff, wouldn't it be better to use the same resin that was used to build the hull?  Epoxy is obvious when used in contrast with the original material, degrades in UV and is incompatible with gel coat, right?  

the epoxy plugmforms a waterproof barrier between the core and the world.    By trying to widen it on the inside you create a rivet and pull out any soft wood.   Then replace or reuse whatever backing plate that was there.   

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What do you guys think about the bottom?  Should I worry about bottom paint?  She certainly isn't smooth as a baby's butt... looks like old bottom paint has been sanded off and it's a little rough but not too bad.  I'm guessing it'll be about $2000 for bottom paint so I'm wondering if that's something I should save for a DIY project for next spring.

skip it until you break down and rent a slip.    Just polish and wax when you are bored.    

 

 

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11 hours ago, Tempest said:

Was also thinking I might be able to buy the gear and do the rigging myself.  Any opinions on that subject?  The money I'd save would probably cover the tools and I like tools.

keep digging on the forums and you'll understand the issues a bit better.  the rigging you've got is dead as a door nail for sure.  So - 5mm Sk75 dyneema is a bit over $1 /ft and plenty UV resistant for a trailered boat. this stuff is what the fishing industry uses offshore in conditions we can't even dream of in our worst nightmares if we tried.  30 ft stick comes out to roughly 175ft total for lowers, uppers, stays. so less than 200 bucks. the big costs are hardware. Colligo Marine's prices seem to have crept up a bit since I last looked, but you'll need the spreader tangs, dead eyes, and new turnbuckles (which you'll want same as wire, anyway).  So it comes down to the swaging costs + material from the rigger compared to the sexy hard parts from colligo.  I wouldn't trust swaged terminals of my own doing, and the sta-loc bits are $$$.   a feller with a SJ 24 came to the same conclusions as I did - more on his blog here: http://restore24.blogspot.fr/2013/04/colligo-dux-standing-rigging.html   he made his own hw parts and the cost came out to be less than wire.  not many folks have gone this route because it seems like a break from the tried and true, but I think the synthetic is better in every way.  I recall reading somewhere that losing 1lb aloft is like adding 6lbs in the keel.  you're getting back a lot of righting moment which means a stiffer boat.

re: spreaders - you're not looking to go offshore or do a lot of racing, so normal spreader replacement kit and riveted brackets will work fine. I don't see a dimple like I had on mine.  new hw here will likely still set you back ~200 - 400.  EYO is the best place to find exact details.  on the round vs. foil spreader debate, I'd go with what's economical for your purposes (round).

I agree with Jim - that bulkhead doesn't look so good as the core is clearly delaminated at the top. You've got your work cut out for you there. I'd worry about the gelcoat and cosmetic stuff last.  The bow looks about like mine did, right down to the ugly anchor setup.  Lots of good info to be had online for using West system to fill and redrill holes. But don't remove a single screw until you're ready to do the whole job!  If you caulk the crap out of it you can keep enough water out for this season to delay it until next year (epoxy likes heat to cure).  Not sure about the deck on the 23. My 27 was balsa.

also I agree 100% with Lark about the bottom.  no need for ablative paint on a trailer boat.  sand the bottom, fair it, then roll 'n tip with a hard paint for easy cleaning.  

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On 5/22/2017 at 2:18 PM, Norse Horse said:

Get yourself a Loos gauge for your stays, lots of tuning to enjoy there. There is some work involved to plumb the mast and rake that you might not want to try, but why not, you can tap the brains on SA.

That old rig is DEAD, dried up, dog gone done.:( good pics.

The wood buckhead rot is a bit of a project.

Who beat on that port nav light?:lol: Candleman?

Not a hint of sealant under those fittings on the deck...

You can use a screw post to support the boat for repairs. Duplex nails go right through asphalt.

More pics of the bottom!!

If you have a solar panel you won't need a charger on your outboard, unless you have a 12v cooler.

Cheers

Those Loos gauges are EXPENSIVE!  Buddy from the club came over and said I'd be better off just using the halyard trick and spending loos gauge money on other things.  Plumbing the mast doesn't sound hard but setting the rake could be interesting.

The bulkhead actually doesn't look bad at all.  It's just swolen at the edge.  The rest of it looks pretty good but I do have a 4x6' sheet of 5/8" marine grade plywood in the garage.... maybe a project for next winter.

No idea what happened to the port light... maybe someone smashed it with the anchor.

Pics of the bottom posted below :)  My buddy was also saying I should probably give it a good sand and hit it with 2 coats of Interlux 2000e and then get it in the water.

Yeah, was just thinking that charging and electric starting would be nice.

 

Lark:  I see what you're saying about removing wood and plugging holes but shouldn't I use vinyl ester resin (or whatever they made the boat out of) instead of epoxy?

13 hours ago, Skol said:

keep digging on the forums and you'll understand the issues a bit better.  the rigging you've got is dead as a door nail for sure.  So - 5mm Sk75 dyneema is a bit over $1 /ft and plenty UV resistant for a trailered boat. this stuff is what the fishing industry uses offshore in conditions we can't even dream of in our worst nightmares if we tried.  30 ft stick comes out to roughly 175ft total for lowers, uppers, stays. so less than 200 bucks. the big costs are hardware. Colligo Marine's prices seem to have crept up a bit since I last looked, but you'll need the spreader tangs, dead eyes, and new turnbuckles (which you'll want same as wire, anyway).  So it comes down to the swaging costs + material from the rigger compared to the sexy hard parts from colligo.  I wouldn't trust swaged terminals of my own doing, and the sta-loc bits are $$$.   a feller with a SJ 24 came to the same conclusions as I did - more on his blog here: http://restore24.blogspot.fr/2013/04/colligo-dux-standing-rigging.html   he made his own hw parts and the cost came out to be less than wire.  not many folks have gone this route because it seems like a break from the tried and true, but I think the synthetic is better in every way.  I recall reading somewhere that losing 1lb aloft is like adding 6lbs in the keel.  you're getting back a lot of righting moment which means a stiffer boat.

re: spreaders - you're not looking to go offshore or do a lot of racing, so normal spreader replacement kit and riveted brackets will work fine. I don't see a dimple like I had on mine.  new hw here will likely still set you back ~200 - 400.  EYO is the best place to find exact details.  on the round vs. foil spreader debate, I'd go with what's economical for your purposes (round).

I agree with Jim - that bulkhead doesn't look so good as the core is clearly delaminated at the top. You've got your work cut out for you there. I'd worry about the gelcoat and cosmetic stuff last.  The bow looks about like mine did, right down to the ugly anchor setup.  Lots of good info to be had online for using West system to fill and redrill holes. But don't remove a single screw until you're ready to do the whole job!  If you caulk the crap out of it you can keep enough water out for this season to delay it until next year (epoxy likes heat to cure).  Not sure about the deck on the 23. My 27 was balsa.

also I agree 100% with Lark about the bottom.  no need for ablative paint on a trailer boat.  sand the bottom, fair it, then roll 'n tip with a hard paint for easy cleaning.  

:blink: that SJ24 site may have just turned me to the dark side.  I could totally make my own dead eyes.  I just bought a SWEET bandsaw and I could cut the grooves with a router.  Looks super easy.  All I would have to buy are the parts that link the dead eyes to the chainplates etc.  I need new turnbuckles anyway but it looks like Colligo is using 2 deadeyes and lashing them together in place of a turnbuckle.  The only thing I'm wondering about is how you hook 2 deadeyes to one chainplate for the inner and outer stays without them touching.  Their video says that cord is only good for 5 years.... what are your thoughts?

I think the spreaders and tips are fine, it's just the bases/castings that need to be replaced.  wondering if the C or D style bracket will work with my spreaders: https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=57&familyName=Spreaders+%26+Brackets+(Airfoil)

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So as I was cleaning the boat out I found 2 more sails down in the belly of the beast!  Both in great shape.  One looks like the original main sail with bolt rope (yuck) and a storm jib.  I believe this brings the total sail inventory up to 6 :D

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45 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Those Loos gauges are EXPENSIVE!  Buddy from the club came over and said I'd be better off just using the halyard trick and spending loos gauge money on other things.  Plumbing the mast doesn't sound hard but setting the rake could be interesting.

You don't need a gauge IMO. There are lots of tuning guides online, it is pretty easy to get the mast straight on a boat this size.  Rake - start at vertical, probably good enough for now.  

Re "EXPENSIVE", now that you are boat owner you will need to re-calibrate your understanding of this word.  BOAT - Break Out Another Thousand.  

Dyneema or wire rigging - I have no experience with Dyneema, it could be a good way to go.  I would just reiterate that you need to prioritize your projects.  Focus on those that are necessary to get you sailing ASAP.  Once you have that list, then figure out your optimum allocation of time and money.  Pay others for stuff that has a high time/dollar ratio.  Otherwise it's pretty easy to miss a whole season due to mission creep.  Re-rigging is relatively quick and easy.  Take the old stuff to someone, tell them to make new stuff the same size and length.  Pick it up, pay the bill and you're good to go. As compared to your time to figure it all out and DIY.  

Lark is right, epoxy is the stuff to use to fill.  Don't worry about what they made the boat out of.  Good info here:

 https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=495 

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51 minutes ago, CruiserJim said:

You don't need a gauge IMO. There are lots of tuning guides online, it is pretty easy to get the mast straight on a boat this size.  Rake - start at vertical, probably good enough for now.  

Re "EXPENSIVE", now that you are boat owner you will need to re-calibrate your understanding of this word.  BOAT - Break Out Another Thousand.  

Dyneema or wire rigging - I have no experience with Dyneema, it could be a good way to go.  I would just reiterate that you need to prioritize your projects.  Focus on those that are necessary to get you sailing ASAP.  Once you have that list, then figure out your optimum allocation of time and money.  Pay others for stuff that has a high time/dollar ratio.  Otherwise it's pretty easy to miss a whole season due to mission creep.  Re-rigging is relatively quick and easy.  Take the old stuff to someone, tell them to make new stuff the same size and length.  Pick it up, pay the bill and you're good to go. As compared to your time to figure it all out and DIY.  

Lark is right, epoxy is the stuff to use to fill.  Don't worry about what they made the boat out of.  Good info here:

 https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=495 

+3 on epoxy. For one thing it's a lot easier to mix and you're less likely to end up with a brittle or foamy mass with no strength.

Priorities- do you want to fix the boat up to be perfect, or do you want to sail? You don't need a Loos gage, you need a new stay. Replace all the standing rigging? Yeah that would be ideal but unless you are going to really cram the boat thru some hard conditions (which I would recommend against, to anyone with a new-to-them boat), you don't need it. Barrier coat? I'm not sure I'd ever worry about that on a 1970s boat unless I was going to do long-term cruising in the tropics, and had extra cash jingling in the pockets.

Front of keel / centerboard looks pretty good.

There may be an old guy at Dwyer that knows exactly what you need. Call 'em and ask, if you end up talking to somebody who just wants to sell you something quick then don't bite.

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, CruiserJim said:

You don't need a gauge IMO. There are lots of tuning guides online, it is pretty easy to get the mast straight on a boat this size.  Rake - start at vertical, probably good enough for now.  

Re "EXPENSIVE", now that you are boat owner you will need to re-calibrate your understanding of this word.  BOAT - Break Out Another Thousand.  

Dyneema or wire rigging - I have no experience with Dyneema, it could be a good way to go.  I would just reiterate that you need to prioritize your projects.  Focus on those that are necessary to get you sailing ASAP.  Once you have that list, then figure out your optimum allocation of time and money.  Pay others for stuff that has a high time/dollar ratio.  Otherwise it's pretty easy to miss a whole season due to mission creep.  Re-rigging is relatively quick and easy.  Take the old stuff to someone, tell them to make new stuff the same size and length.  Pick it up, pay the bill and you're good to go. As compared to your time to figure it all out and DIY.  

Lark is right, epoxy is the stuff to use to fill.  Don't worry about what they made the boat out of.  Good info here:

 https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=495 

Yeah, I know the prices are high on a lot of stuff so it comes down to 2 things.  #1, you mentioned, Time/Expense; prioritize the DIY stuff and #2, not spending money on the insanely expensive stuff when there may be a better priced alternative.

My high price items at this point are: Rig, Hull & Motor.  Slightly less expensive would be the Spreader situation.  After the boat is in the water I will need to fix the trailer.  Bunks will need to be moved and fixed which will be cheap and then I need 4 new tires which I'll get used off the local shop/swap.

You might be right about the rig... maybe I only need 1 or 2 stays to get rolling and could then replace the whole deal later but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as they say so I would rather take a little time and do the right stuff now as opposed to getting rammy just to get on the water.  The rigger is coming tomorrow so we'll see what he says.

I've been meaning to order a gallon of West Systems anyway just because it's awesome stuff to have around.  I'll also order some calking to seal all off the deck gear but I'll have to research what to get.  This can obviously be done later but I would like to fix some of those cracks in the deck... what should I use for that?  Epoxy?  The hardware holes will be covered by the hardware but the cracks are exposed.  Are polyester hull cracks filled with epoxy just par for the course in the boating world or do people actually try to fix and then blend them so they aren't visible?

1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

+3 on epoxy. For one thing it's a lot easier to mix and you're less likely to end up with a brittle or foamy mass with no strength.

Priorities- do you want to fix the boat up to be perfect, or do you want to sail? You don't need a Loos gage, you need a new stay. Replace all the standing rigging? Yeah that would be ideal but unless you are going to really cram the boat thru some hard conditions (which I would recommend against, to anyone with a new-to-them boat), you don't need it. Barrier coat? I'm not sure I'd ever worry about that on a 1970s boat unless I was going to do long-term cruising in the tropics, and had extra cash jingling in the pockets.

Front of keel / centerboard looks pretty good.

There may be an old guy at Dwyer that knows exactly what you need. Call 'em and ask, if you end up talking to somebody who just wants to sell you something quick then don't bite.

FB- Doug

Well it sounds like I could get 2 coats out of 2 gallons of 2000E and I have a compressor, sprayer and random orbital so could get the bottom done for probably $300 plus sanding disks.  It would also have the advantage of smoothing out the bottom as it's pretty rough right now.  I have to order epoxy and calk anyway so I may as well get everything in one order.

Yeah, I'll call Dwyer and see what they say.

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I'm jealous on the storm jib.    Great boat.   Don't let the to do list keep you off the water, only the must do list.  Think back to your first car. If you were like me:  New fuel line, of course!    New break lines?   They aren't that rusty.  :D  prioritize.   It's temporary.

This is bad boy looks like it has corrosion and needs to be replaced.   Others?   The bent turnbuckle should go away as well.    If the turnbuckle shows no cracks or issues, why?    You aren't running the vende globe.     Check often and replace others when you decide to vacation with the boat.    

No idea if synthetic is smart.   If it's rated for five years and you sell in four, that may tip the scale.    The other question I have for Skol is which makes it easier to raise the mast frequently without kinks and snags?     Get it on the water while the days are long.   Stall on paint.    Trailering will scuff it up anyway.    You will have a better understanding what is important to you after your third weekend.

I think there are three kinds of sailors.   Those that like to sail, those that like to fix, and those that don't fix enough to sail.

P_20170522_114023.jpgP

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I still vote for all new standing rigging now.

Re fixing the various nicks and dings, it's up to you how perfect you want it. On my boat I just used white Marine Tex.  It was not perfect but close enough. Remember it's a $1200 boat.

I'm not familiar with where you sail. Do you really need a motor just to go out for a daysail?  I had a motor for my Santana 20 but rarely carried it aboard.  

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While the standing rigging has seen better days, I too think you might get away with updating it spread out over a couple years...assuming you don't go out in a full gale.  I would replace both the broken stay, and the matching one on the other side this year.  I'd also replace the turnbuckles for those two.  That might allow you to re-use an old turnbuckle to replace the bent one (assuming all turnbuckles are the same size, threaded for the same across the rig..something of a big assumption...) Then next year you can replace two more shrouds, and the following year the headstay/backstay, and spread the replacement cost over 3 years.  

Maybe borrow a Loos gauge, but getting the mast up straight, with maybe 2-4 inches of aft rake should be a great starting point.  Then check it while sailing to make sure its still centered and in column.  If you need to make an adjustment, adjust the leeward (untensioned) side a turn or two, then tack over and adjust the new leeward side.  Use a spare halyard or the topping lift to measure side to side.  You can also use the main halyard to measure rake.

Epoxy is best material for repairs to old polyester boats as it has much better/superior secondary/mechanical bonding capability...

Read this: http://www.westsystem.com/wp-content/uploads/Fiberglass-Manual-2015.pdf...it will cover how to do all the repairs you need to make to your hull...and how to rebed all your deck hardware.  Again, no reason to necessarily have to do it all at once.  Do the foredeck one year, do the cabintop the next year, and do the cockpit in the third year.  Lots of opinions on what sealant to use, and lots of folks are fans of Mainesails Butyl Tape, but except for when you are bedding plastic that specifies using a silicon sealant, don't use silicone.  I like to use a polysulfide sealant like Life Caulk...http://www.boatlife.com/life-calk-cartridge/

As for the dent, give it some time, either in the water or on the trailer once the bunk is repaired.  It may come partially out all by itself.  If not, and you need to "push" it back, again, take your time.  It took time for the hull to deform as it has, you need to give it time as you deform it again back into shape...or you risk damaging the laminate.  It will have little impact on how the boat sails from a day sailing/ learn the boat standpoint...so as long as your not racing to seriously right off the bat, time it your friend.

Get it to the minimum level needed to get out sailing, and get out sailing.  then starting fixing other less critical things as time goes along...

Oh, and congrats, welcome to the club!

Crash

 

 

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+1 for replace all the stays. May as well get it on the water as soon as you can and leave the bottom, looking at the pics, it will take some time to smooth it and you won't notice it this year anyway. You don't need to find out what a longboard is now, it is a cruel tool, much like a 100 watt bulb is to drywallers and painters:o. There are plenty of little things to do anyway.

Borrowing is good.

There is always something to spend boat bucks on every year. Like an anchor upgrade for overnights.

There are used sails here in Sidney. http://www.usedsailloft.com/

Windytv gives you some forecasting in your area. https://www.windy.com/?49.809,-119.953,10

 

 

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Great looking little boat - one of my faves and Ericson was a good builder.

That rigging looks dead, buried & decomposed - get new or buy fittings like Hy-Mod and make your own.

That dimple in the hull will pop out - might take some time but it will resume its normal shape eventually - I've never seen or experienced one from bad blocking to be permanent.

I'd get new sails too - expensive as a share of the boat costs but worth it - on Okanagan lake you'll only be beating and running so you need good shape. You can get by with used spinnakers but the white sails need to be shapely. In actual $$ they won't be all that much.

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14 hours ago, Tempest said:

...

I've been meaning to order a gallon of West Systems anyway just because it's awesome stuff to have around.  I'll also order some calking to seal all off the deck gear but I'll have to research what to get. 

For minor stuff I use Life Caulk which is a polysulfide- sticks well without a lot of prep, lasts a long time, when you go back to to a more serious job later it doesn't leave a TFU residue like silicone types. For major stuff I use 5200 unless it's exposed to sunlight in which case I use 4200 UV.

This can obviously be done later but I would like to fix some of those cracks in the deck... what should I use for that?  Epoxy?  The hardware holes will be covered by the hardware but the cracks are exposed.  Are polyester hull cracks filled with epoxy just par for the course in the boating world or do people actually try to fix and then blend them so they aren't visible?

Well it sounds like I could get 2 coats out of 2 gallons of 2000E and I have a compressor, sprayer and random orbital so could get the bottom done for probably $300 plus sanding disks.  It would also have the advantage of smoothing out the bottom as it's pretty rough right now.  I have to order epoxy and calk anyway so I may as well get everything in one order.

 

West System is great stuff. I have taken to using MAS or System3 epoxies as they are just as good and 10~15% cheaper. Still using the West System fillers which do all sorts of amazing things. For the cracks, you can start by squeegeeing resin into the crack to hold & seal it; then when you decide to really do a good job (over the winter hen you can't sail anyway) you can grind out the crack, peel off the gelcoat for an inch or two all around, lay in the right filler plus a little surface cloth to bring back some strength, and refinish any way you like. There are so many good ways to do this that I'd seriously recommend just puttering around and learning how you like to approach these things and just how perfect a result will satisfy you.

The bottom is not a big problem unless you are trying to win races in light air. You need a decent motor, and moneywise I'd put a priority on the sails before the bottom (although the bottom is cheaper). If you're going to put on a racing bottom then you need to peel, fill & longboard, template the foils, etc etc; then put on the barrier coat. Yep the quest for perfection can take a big chunk out of both your budget and your life!

That Ericson is a seriously nice little boat, though. You done good!

FB- Doug

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MAS used to be cheaper, but it has become quite pricey.  On the Defender website, the 1 gal MAS Flag resin is $80 and .5 gal hardener is $80  which works out to $107/gal mixed epoxy.  The 1 gal WEST105B is also $80 and the corresponding 205B hardener is $46, which works out to $105/gal mixed.

I've been very pleased with the epoxy I bought from US Composites last year.  3:1 mix ratio.  Very similar to West.  Gel and hardening times about 50-100% longer than WEST.  Wets out about the same or better.  Doesn't seem as sticky as WEST I find, so you don't get as many loose wet fibres stuck to your gloves or yourself.  

Of course the best part was the price - About CAD 500 for 7.5 gal of resin and hardener so about CAD 67/gal (USD 50/gal).  This included freight charges from Florida to Blaine, WA and the required pumps.

For fillers, the WEST stuff is good, but about the only unique or proprietary fillers they have might be the 404 High Density filler or 410 Microlight.  Anything else can be bought generically for about 1/3 the cost.  Locally, for most fillers I go to either FiberTek or Industrial Plastics, whichever is closer at the time.  I did buy a gallon bucket of micro balloons from US Comp for less than USD 20.

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Industrial Plastics & Paint sells a 1 to 1 epoxy EX88 that is well priced and has a nice long cure time as long as it's not too hot out. I really like the convenience of the 1 to 1 mix but I've been told it isn't quite as strong as the higher mix rations.

Dunno if that's true but I've never had a problem with it. Seems to end up a little more flexible or "softer" that the higher ratio mixes

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4 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Industrial Plastics & Paint sells a 1 to 1 epoxy EX88 that is well priced and has a nice long cure time as long as it's not too hot out. I really like the convenience of the 1 to 1 mix but I've been told it isn't quite as strong as the higher mix rations.

Dunno if that's true but I've never had a problem with it. Seems to end up a little more flexible or "softer" that the higher ratio mixes

The big bonus of EX88 is the UV resistance, other than that there are better epoxies.

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Ok so here's what the rigger wants to charge:

  • $12 per swage x6
  • $18 per Fork or Aircraft eye x6
  • $78 per turnbuckle x6
  • $1.10/foot of 3/16" 316SS wire

So my total would be about $850.  Is there any point in looking around online for a better price?

So the other item on the table is blocks!  Apparently I'm missing either my main sheet system or my boom vang system...  I only have 2 blocks and they look kinda small.  Photo posted below.  Thoughts?

On 5/23/2017 at 7:56 PM, CruiserJim said:

I still vote for all new standing rigging now.

Re fixing the various nicks and dings, it's up to you how perfect you want it. On my boat I just used white Marine Tex.  It was not perfect but close enough. Remember it's a $1200 boat.

I'm not familiar with where you sail. Do you really need a motor just to go out for a daysail?  I had a motor for my Santana 20 but rarely carried it aboard.  

Yeah, that's happening.  I'm not taking any chances.

Didn't know you could get white marine tex but that sounds like the perfect solution.  It doesn't need to be showroom but I do want to prevent water from getting into my deck and have it not be a super obvious, crappy looking repair!

Yes, motor is required for a lot of reasons and I don't mind spending the money on a good unit that can go from boat to boat.  Can always be used as the motor for a dinghy on a future large boat. ;)

On 5/23/2017 at 9:10 PM, Crash said:

While the standing rigging has seen better days, I too think you might get away with updating it spread out over a couple years...assuming you don't go out in a full gale.  I would replace both the broken stay, and the matching one on the other side this year.  I'd also replace the turnbuckles for those two.  That might allow you to re-use an old turnbuckle to replace the bent one (assuming all turnbuckles are the same size, threaded for the same across the rig..something of a big assumption...) Then next year you can replace two more shrouds, and the following year the headstay/backstay, and spread the replacement cost over 3 years.  

Maybe borrow a Loos gauge, but getting the mast up straight, with maybe 2-4 inches of aft rake should be a great starting point.  Then check it while sailing to make sure its still centered and in column.  If you need to make an adjustment, adjust the leeward (untensioned) side a turn or two, then tack over and adjust the new leeward side.  Use a spare halyard or the topping lift to measure side to side.  You can also use the main halyard to measure rake.

Epoxy is best material for repairs to old polyester boats as it has much better/superior secondary/mechanical bonding capability...

Read this: http://www.westsystem.com/wp-content/uploads/Fiberglass-Manual-2015.pdf...it will cover how to do all the repairs you need to make to your hull...and how to rebed all your deck hardware.  Again, no reason to necessarily have to do it all at once.  Do the foredeck one year, do the cabintop the next year, and do the cockpit in the third year.  Lots of opinions on what sealant to use, and lots of folks are fans of Mainesails Butyl Tape, but except for when you are bedding plastic that specifies using a silicon sealant, don't use silicone.  I like to use a polysulfide sealant like Life Caulk...http://www.boatlife.com/life-calk-cartridge/

As for the dent, give it some time, either in the water or on the trailer once the bunk is repaired.  It may come partially out all by itself.  If not, and you need to "push" it back, again, take your time.  It took time for the hull to deform as it has, you need to give it time as you deform it again back into shape...or you risk damaging the laminate.  It will have little impact on how the boat sails from a day sailing/ learn the boat standpoint...so as long as your not racing to seriously right off the bat, time it your friend.

Get it to the minimum level needed to get out sailing, and get out sailing.  then starting fixing other less critical things as time goes along...

Oh, and congrats, welcome to the club!

Crash

 

 

Yeah, I asked the rigger about that and he said exactly what I expected him to say.  Rigging will be under $1000 and then I'll never have to worry about it again.

That west systems manual is awesome!  Thanks!

Yeah, I don't want to use silicone... that stuff is impossible to replace.  I just want something that will for a good seal and will then be able to be removed and replaced when necessary.

Minimum list at this point is:

Rigging --> Motor --> Trailer --> Nav lights!

The riggor even said that if I get that weight off that dent it'll probably pop out on its own!

On 5/23/2017 at 11:02 PM, Norse Horse said:

+1 for replace all the stays. May as well get it on the water as soon as you can and leave the bottom, looking at the pics, it will take some time to smooth it and you won't notice it this year anyway. You don't need to find out what a longboard is now, it is a cruel tool, much like a 100 watt bulb is to drywallers and painters:o. There are plenty of little things to do anyway.

Borrowing is good.

There is always something to spend boat bucks on every year. Like an anchor upgrade for overnights.

There are used sails here in Sidney. http://www.usedsailloft.com/

Windytv gives you some forecasting in your area. https://www.windy.com/?49.809,-119.953,10

 

 

What is this longboard you speak of.... going to have to google it.

Boat came with 2 anchors.  One aluminum on that hangs on the pulpit and one heavy steel one.  Both are danforths.

The sails all look awesome so I'm not even going to worry about them for now.  Going to have to check them out properly once I get the mast up.

That windy site is great!  Thanks!

On 5/24/2017 at 8:23 AM, SloopJonB said:

Great looking little boat - one of my faves and Ericson was a good builder.

That rigging looks dead, buried & decomposed - get new or buy fittings like Hy-Mod and make your own.

That dimple in the hull will pop out - might take some time but it will resume its normal shape eventually - I've never seen or experienced one from bad blocking to be permanent.

I'd get new sails too - expensive as a share of the boat costs but worth it - on Okanagan lake you'll only be beating and running so you need good shape. You can get by with used spinnakers but the white sails need to be shapely. In actual $$ they won't be all that much.

Yeah, as soon as I saw it I knew it was my boat.  Solid as frig.  Looked like a quality unit.  Someone somewhere along the way took really good care of it because ALL of the cubbys and bilges have been painted with that grey interlux bilge paint.  I thought it was factory until I found a can of it when I was cleaning the boat out.

We'll see what the sails look like when I get them up but I think they are in great shape.  She's not rigged for a spinny at all so I'll have to think about that down the road.  Definitely not a priority right now.

On 5/24/2017 at 9:56 AM, Steam Flyer said:

West System is great stuff. I have taken to using MAS or System3 epoxies as they are just as good and 10~15% cheaper. Still using the West System fillers which do all sorts of amazing things. For the cracks, you can start by squeegeeing resin into the crack to hold & seal it; then when you decide to really do a good job (over the winter hen you can't sail anyway) you can grind out the crack, peel off the gelcoat for an inch or two all around, lay in the right filler plus a little surface cloth to bring back some strength, and refinish any way you like. There are so many good ways to do this that I'd seriously recommend just puttering around and learning how you like to approach these things and just how perfect a result will satisfy you.

The bottom is not a big problem unless you are trying to win races in light air. You need a decent motor, and moneywise I'd put a priority on the sails before the bottom (although the bottom is cheaper). If you're going to put on a racing bottom then you need to peel, fill & longboard, template the foils, etc etc; then put on the barrier coat. Yep the quest for perfection can take a big chunk out of both your budget and your life!

That Ericson is a seriously nice little boat, though. You done good!

FB- Doug

I'll have to see if I can find a distributor of the MAS or System3 stuff north of the border.  I'm looking at a gallon of West Systems right now and it's going to be about $180+ gubermint for resin and hardener.  Figure I'll order a couple gallons of 2000E right now too as well as a tube of calk and plan on doing the deck hole repairs this summer and a bottom job in the fall.

Definitely not doing a racing bottom.  I'm just going to sand off the old shmoo, fill any holes, make her as smooth as I can and hit 'er with the 2000E

Thanks :D I feel like I done good!

On 5/24/2017 at 0:00 PM, 12 metre said:

MAS used to be cheaper, but it has become quite pricey.  On the Defender website, the 1 gal MAS Flag resin is $80 and .5 gal hardener is $80  which works out to $107/gal mixed epoxy.  The 1 gal WEST105B is also $80 and the corresponding 205B hardener is $46, which works out to $105/gal mixed.

I've been very pleased with the epoxy I bought from US Composites last year.  3:1 mix ratio.  Very similar to West.  Gel and hardening times about 50-100% longer than WEST.  Wets out about the same or better.  Doesn't seem as sticky as WEST I find, so you don't get as many loose wet fibres stuck to your gloves or yourself.  

Of course the best part was the price - About CAD 500 for 7.5 gal of resin and hardener so about CAD 67/gal (USD 50/gal).  This included freight charges from Florida to Blaine, WA and the required pumps.

For fillers, the WEST stuff is good, but about the only unique or proprietary fillers they have might be the 404 High Density filler or 410 Microlight.  Anything else can be bought generically for about 1/3 the cost.  Locally, for most fillers I go to either FiberTek or Industrial Plastics, whichever is closer at the time.  I did buy a gallon bucket of micro balloons from US Comp for less than USD 20.

It would be nice to find some epoxy north of the border or at least a place that will ship to Kanuckistan.  Where are you finding west systems that cheap?   I was going to order from Binnacle and it would work out to about $140/Gal CAD.  IP&P is FUCKING EXPENSIVE and I'll only buy stuff from them if I absolutely have to.  They are a 5 min drive though so it's convenient if I need something RFN.  I have bought filler/thickener powder from them which is pretty cheap.

23 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Industrial Plastics & Paint sells a 1 to 1 epoxy EX88 that is well priced and has a nice long cure time as long as it's not too hot out. I really like the convenience of the 1 to 1 mix but I've been told it isn't quite as strong as the higher mix rations.

Dunno if that's true but I've never had a problem with it. Seems to end up a little more flexible or "softer" that the higher ratio mixes

1:1 isn't a concern for me really and I do already have the west systems pumps so I'm good there.

23 hours ago, Ishmael said:

The big bonus of EX88 is the UV resistance, other than that there are better epoxies.

Is there any way to add stuff to west systems to make it UV resistant or am I hooped there?  Not super interested in a sub par adhesive, even if it is UV resistant.

P_20170525_132331.jpg

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This is one type of longboard.

001.JPG.5a07fe13bf42dafa2a4c295b846c67d0.JPG

It's a Hutchins for auto body work. You can get one at KMS in Kelowna along with pre-cut paper for it. Get a box of 40 and a box of 80 and you'll have paper for a good long time. You can also make one out of thin plywood and staple roll paper on it - I've used the Hutchins for years (I have two) and prefer the simplicity of the pre-cut strips and clip on functionality.

Make a spinnaker a priority - rig the mast for it before you raise it. The wind only blows up and down the lake so you'll never be on a reach for more than a few minutes.

I grew up in Penticton and learned to sail on the lake - trust me on this. You can pick up a used chute for that boat for little more than pocket change - certainly in terms of boat bucks it will be change.

As to the "quality" of epoxy - I have used at least a dozen and a half different brands of epoxy over the years and have never found any real "quality" difference - only differences in characteristics such as mix ratio, cure time, hardness, viscosity, clarity and so forth. They all do the job in terms of sticking things together. There are only a small handful of actual resin refiners. All the different brands buy their base resin from them and simply add their own additives to tailor the characteristics to their specifications.

Unless you are doing something very high tech and need very specific characteristics (you aren't and you don't) then go with the cheapest you can find.

 

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Rigging sounds reasonable.  Write a check and done.  

The blocks in your picture look more like a small boat vang than a mainsheet.  You want a nice 4:1 roller bearing tackle for the mainsheet.  Here's a review looking at systems for a 30' boat, you could with a bit lighter (and less expensive) system, but good info:

https://www.practical-sailor.com/issues/37_30/features/Mainsheet-Control-Systems_11051-1.html

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Just looking at the Nautos stuff now.  Very reasonably priced but I have no idea what size I would need!  thinking about getting a boom kicker too but that purchase can probably wait.

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5 hours ago, Tempest said:

Ok so here's what the rigger wants to charge:

  • $12 per swage x6
  • $18 per Fork or Aircraft eye x6
  • $78 per turnbuckle x6
  • $1.10/foot of 3/16" 316SS wire

So my total would be about $850.  Is there any point in looking around online for a better price?

So the other item on the table is blocks!  Apparently I'm missing either my main sheet system or my boom vang system...  I only have 2 blocks and they look kinda small.  Photo posted below.  Thoughts?

Yeah, that's happening.  I'm not taking any chances.

Didn't know you could get white marine tex but that sounds like the perfect solution.  It doesn't need to be showroom but I do want to prevent water from getting into my deck and have it not be a super obvious, crappy looking repair!

Yes, motor is required for a lot of reasons and I don't mind spending the money on a good unit that can go from boat to boat.  Can always be used as the motor for a dinghy on a future large boat. ;)

Yeah, I asked the rigger about that and he said exactly what I expected him to say.  Rigging will be under $1000 and then I'll never have to worry about it again.

That west systems manual is awesome!  Thanks!

Yeah, I don't want to use silicone... that stuff is impossible to replace.  I just want something that will for a good seal and will then be able to be removed and replaced when necessary.

Minimum list at this point is:

Rigging --> Motor --> Trailer --> Nav lights!

The riggor even said that if I get that weight off that dent it'll probably pop out on its own!

What is this longboard you speak of.... going to have to google it.

Boat came with 2 anchors.  One aluminum on that hangs on the pulpit and one heavy steel one.  Both are danforths.

The sails all look awesome so I'm not even going to worry about them for now.  Going to have to check them out properly once I get the mast up.

That windy site is great!  Thanks!

Yeah, as soon as I saw it I knew it was my boat.  Solid as frig.  Looked like a quality unit.  Someone somewhere along the way took really good care of it because ALL of the cubbys and bilges have been painted with that grey interlux bilge paint.  I thought it was factory until I found a can of it when I was cleaning the boat out.

We'll see what the sails look like when I get them up but I think they are in great shape.  She's not rigged for a spinny at all so I'll have to think about that down the road.  Definitely not a priority right now.

I'll have to see if I can find a distributor of the MAS or System3 stuff north of the border.  I'm looking at a gallon of West Systems right now and it's going to be about $180+ gubermint for resin and hardener.  Figure I'll order a couple gallons of 2000E right now too as well as a tube of calk and plan on doing the deck hole repairs this summer and a bottom job in the fall.

Definitely not doing a racing bottom.  I'm just going to sand off the old shmoo, fill any holes, make her as smooth as I can and hit 'er with the 2000E

Thanks :D I feel like I done good!

It would be nice to find some epoxy north of the border or at least a place that will ship to Kanuckistan.  Where are you finding west systems that cheap?   I was going to order from Binnacle and it would work out to about $140/Gal CAD.  IP&P is FUCKING EXPENSIVE and I'll only buy stuff from them if I absolutely have to.  They are a 5 min drive though so it's convenient if I need something RFN.  I have bought filler/thickener powder from them which is pretty cheap.

1:1 isn't a concern for me really and I do already have the west systems pumps so I'm good there.

Is there any way to add stuff to west systems to make it UV resistant or am I hooped there?  Not super interested in a sub par adhesive, even if it is UV resistant.

P_20170525_132331.jpg

How much epoxy do you think you will need?  Unless you're doing some serious laminating - a gallon at most should fill any deck holes.  For deck holes quart size should do you.  For a small quantity like a gallon, it's probably not worth your time searching out the best deal just to save $40-$50 

A couple of notes, when I said I paid $60/gal, that was for epoxy formulated by US Composites (Florida), not WEST.  You'll never find WEST at that price.  

You also mentioned you have WEST pumps - keep in mind these will only work with WEST epoxies which are 5:1.  If you use these with a 1:1 epoxy you'll end up dispensing either 5x too much resin, or 1/5 the required hardener.  Either way you are screwed.  Better off just measuring out with a 1:1

MAS and S3 are both good epoxies and both have their fans.  Again, unless you are doing some serious laminating, get their regular epoxies rather than laminating ones.  The laminating resins are less viscous making wetting out cloth easier - but are also more expensive (the S3 product is called Silvertip IIRC).  The System3 website also has an excellent epoxy users guide you can read full of excellent info..  

I don't think I've ever seen MAS anywhere in the lower mainland, but if you're are in Van, Fibertek carries S3 but it is more expensive than WEST

 

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Unless replacing fair amount of core, there is little need for more than a gallon...quart sizes would seem to handle most of your needs.  In that case, might be worth paying more per volume to only have to buy the amount you need.  No one needs a half gallon of epoxy just sitting in the garage...S3, MAS, West are all good.  Buy what is available and stocked near you in small sizes so you end up using most of what you've bought.

Now if you end up in a major project, then that all changes...

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7 hours ago, Tempest said:

Ok so here's what the rigger wants to charge:

  • $12 per swage x6
  • $18 per Fork or Aircraft eye x6
  • $78 per turnbuckle x6
  • $1.10/foot of 3/16" 316SS wire

So my total would be about $850.  Is there any point in looking around online for a better price?

I assume by swage you mean a swaged stud.  That's be a threaded stud terminal, swaged to the wire.  The fork and eye terminals are swaged to the wire too.  And I'd guess the turnbuckles also include the toggle jaw?  For 3/16" wire there are two sizes of terminals you can use, 3/8" or 5/16".  Sometimes called marine and aircraft, respectively.  5/16" is cheaper, but you'd want to buy the size that fits the holes in your chainplates, stem fitting, etc.  The 5/16" parts alone, in USD, would be about: stud $11, eye $12, fork $21, and turnbuckle $29.  And $0.60-$0.75 for wire depending on 304 vs 316.  So pretty reasonable in CAD, other than those turnbuckles are expensive.

 

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