Tempest

Went to look at a Catalina 22....

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Sometimes the wind picks up while one is already out sailing

FB- Doug

That's my point - shelter is always close at hand here. Pretty hard to get more than a few miles from shelter anywhere around here.

And the seas never get more than a few feet high.

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On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 4:48 PM, Tempest said:

on the list for this year is:

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It's a big list... we'll see how she goes.

 

Be sure to add to the list... "go to the 2018 Ericson rendezvous, Genoa Bay, July..."

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5 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

That's my point - shelter is always close at hand here. Pretty hard to get more than a few miles from shelter anywhere around here.

And the seas never get more than a few feet high.

True enough but then it's a trailerable boat innit?

Aside from that, the question is "how big a bite to takeout maintain for single reef" and the answer is "it depends." Temp doesn't have a lot of experience yet so he's trying to capitalize on ours...... warm fuzzy feeling, thanks...... and you want to tell him what the weather will be like whenever he's sailing. Good to know.

My preference is to be slightly over powered than either hella over powered or underpowered; especially when trying to maneuver against chop or some other tough condition. It's also really important to practice taking in a reef. IMHO 25% is too much -but- that's largely taste / preference. My last keelboat had a 12% single reef and that was great in the context of having a good blade jib and not wanting the penalty of a 2nd reef.

FB- Doug

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On 4/1/2018 at 6:12 AM, Steam Flyer said:

I think the reef points look good if you want a deep 1 reef. I like a shallow reef myself because that gives you good control when you would otherwise be overpowered. This philosophy works best with either a deep 2nd reef or never sailing in over 30~ 35-ish (or maybe a storm stay sail for your boat)

Reef points do indeed hurt performance which why so many 1-design boats don't have them (no matter how much they need one)

FB- Doug

I do have a blade in the inventory but I think it has a rip in it.  I'm going to have to take it in to get repaired this spring.

On 4/1/2018 at 6:14 AM, Steam Flyer said:

PS I agree 100% w  choice of sails

And with feeling like a lazy old man.

 

Who feels like a lazy old man?  haha

On 4/1/2018 at 12:15 PM, SloopJonB said:

Who's going to sail an Ericson 23 in 35 knots on a lake?

Even if sailing on the Salish Sea anyone would run for cover before that on a boat that size.

Yeah, I'm on Okanagan lake at the moment.  35knts has and does come out of nowhere and there's very little shelter on that lake.

On 4/1/2018 at 3:57 PM, SloopJonB said:

That's my point - shelter is always close at hand here. Pretty hard to get more than a few miles from shelter anywhere around here.

And the seas never get more than a few feet high.

Things get pretty sketchy pretty fast round these parts.

On 4/1/2018 at 7:09 PM, sledracr said:

Be sure to add to the list... "go to the 2018 Ericson rendezvous, Genoa Bay, July..."

Ha! Cool.  Where's that?  If it's somewhere around Vancouver I could probably make it work.
*eta* if it's by Duncan I'm betting I can make it over for that :D

On 4/1/2018 at 9:23 PM, Steam Flyer said:

True enough but then it's a trailerable boat innit?

Aside from that, the question is "how big a bite to takeout maintain for single reef" and the answer is "it depends." Temp doesn't have a lot of experience yet so he's trying to capitalize on ours...... warm fuzzy feeling, thanks...... and you want to tell him what the weather will be like whenever he's sailing. Good to know.

My preference is to be slightly over powered than either hella over powered or underpowered; especially when trying to maneuver against chop or some other tough condition. It's also really important to practice taking in a reef. IMHO 25% is too much -but- that's largely taste / preference. My last keelboat had a 12% single reef and that was great in the context of having a good blade jib and not wanting the penalty of a 2nd reef.

FB- Doug

Hunh, interesting.  I was actually thinking 25% wasn't enough for my boat based on sail area.  My buddy was over on the weekend and he summed it up pretty well by asking me when, if ever, I've sailed with a reefed main and the answer was very infrequently.  Furthermore, my main is pretty small when compared to the jib and, being that it's a new sail, I'll probably be able to flatten it out.  I know what you mean though.  I tried sailing on my main alone last summer in probably 20-25knts and I couldn't point worth a damn and was just going back and forth across the lake not making any headway.  I might be better of without a reef so long as I can depower the sail and maintain point.

I told the guys at precision to just put the reef in wherever their software calculates as the best spot which I'm guessing is right around 25%.  Like I said, it may not get much use anyway.

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Genoa Bay is just across from Cowichan Bay, so yes close to Duncan. Nice restaurant last time we were there, and good anchorage. No mooring field, so Slug won`t be there. 

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The reef looks about right to my eye. If you need to further reduce sail on a 23' boat you just drop one of them entirely.  Not the most efficient way to to sail but at that point you're just looking to get home in one piece. 

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13 hours ago, Tempest said:

Ha! Cool.  Where's (Genoa Bay)?  If it's somewhere around Vancouver I could probably make it work.
*eta* if it's by Duncan I'm betting I can make it over for that :D

Yeah, near Duncan, across from Cowichan Bay

Had about 25 Ericsons at the 2017 rendezvous in Langley (it alternates between US and Canada).  Should have about the same number this year.

There are a couple of threads on the Ericson forums if interested.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/forumdisplay.php?4-Ericsons-Northwest-amp-British-Columbia

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On 4/3/2018 at 12:30 AM, Tempest said:

I do have a blade in the inventory but I think it has a rip in it.  I'm going to have to take it in to get repaired this spring.

Who feels like a lazy old man?  haha

Yeah, I'm on Okanagan lake at the moment.  35knts has and does come out of nowhere and there's very little shelter on that lake.

Things get pretty sketchy pretty fast round these parts.

Ha! Cool.  Where's that?  If it's somewhere around Vancouver I could probably make it work.
*eta* if it's by Duncan I'm betting I can make it over for that :D

Hunh, interesting.  I was actually thinking 25% wasn't enough for my boat based on sail area.  My buddy was over on the weekend and he summed it up pretty well by asking me when, if ever, I've sailed with a reefed main and the answer was very infrequently.  Furthermore, my main is pretty small when compared to the jib and, being that it's a new sail, I'll probably be able to flatten it out.  I know what you mean though.  I tried sailing on my main alone last summer in probably 20-25knts and I couldn't point worth a damn and was just going back and forth across the lake not making any headway.  I might be better of without a reef so long as I can depower the sail and maintain point.

I told the guys at precision to just put the reef in wherever their software calculates as the best spot which I'm guessing is right around 25%.  Like I said, it may not get much use anyway.

I managed to work off a little of the lazy old man feeling this afternoon, compounding and waxing our camper van. Getting the bugs off the grill was a job to call the Army. Anyway........

It's true the boat will handle very differently, and probably not point as well upwind (several reasons) under main alone or under reefed main. When reefed down, the center of area of the mainsail moves forward, so it may be better balanced than under full main alone. But the windage will increase exponentially with stronger winds, while the drive from the main will remain the same (limited by righting moment). Choppy waters will make it difficult to keep the boat on an efficient close-hauled course pointing high, and reduce the effectiveness of the underwater foils. So, pointing lower... even to a close reach instead of truly close-hauled.... will work well to get the boat upwind.

Sailmakers are generally pretty smart.

FB- Doug

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On 4/2/2018 at 9:59 PM, Ishmael said:

Genoa Bay is just across from Cowichan Bay, so yes close to Duncan. Nice restaurant last time we were there, and good anchorage. No mooring field, so Slug won`t be there. 

I think this is gonna be doable!

On 4/3/2018 at 6:59 AM, CruiserJim said:

The reef looks about right to my eye. If you need to further reduce sail on a 23' boat you just drop one of them entirely.  Not the most efficient way to to sail but at that point you're just looking to get home in one piece. 

Yeah, that sounds about right.

On 4/3/2018 at 10:52 AM, sledracr said:

Yeah, near Duncan, across from Cowichan Bay

Had about 25 Ericsons at the 2017 rendezvous in Langley (it alternates between US and Canada).  Should have about the same number this year.

There are a couple of threads on the Ericson forums if interested.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/forumdisplay.php?4-Ericsons-Northwest-amp-British-Columbia

Awesome.  Thanks for the link.  It if happens July 6-8 I think I'll be able to make it.  No plans for that weekend yet.

1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

I managed to work off a little of the lazy old man feeling this afternoon, compounding and waxing our camper van. Getting the bugs off the grill was a job to call the Army. Anyway........

It's true the boat will handle very differently, and probably not point as well upwind (several reasons) under main alone or under reefed main. When reefed down, the center of area of the mainsail moves forward, so it may be better balanced than under full main alone. But the windage will increase exponentially with stronger winds, while the drive from the main will remain the same (limited by righting moment). Choppy waters will make it difficult to keep the boat on an efficient close-hauled course pointing high, and reduce the effectiveness of the underwater foils. So, pointing lower... even to a close reach instead of truly close-hauled.... will work well to get the boat upwind.

Sailmakers are generally pretty smart.

FB- Doug

That kinda explains the experience I had last summer.  The fact that my centreboard is swelled and split probably doesn't help.  I'm really hoping I am able to build a new one this summer.

Yeah, the sail maker from Precision called me the other day.  Super nice guy.  Answered all of my questions and seemed like he knew what he was doing.

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14 hours ago, Tempest said:

Awesome.  Thanks for the link. 

Anytime! 

And feel free to join the forums, if you want.  It's all-Ericsons, all the time, and a remarkably helpful community.  A number of other E23 owners there.

 

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11 hours ago, sledracr said:

Anytime! 

And feel free to join the forums, if you want.  It's all-Ericsons, all the time, and a remarkably helpful community.  A number of other E23 owners there.

 

Yeah, I'm already a member but I never post in there because no one ever replies to my posts.  I've asked questions and just get crickets.

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Got the new sails!  They look awesome.  Kinda wish I had paid a little extra and got a window in the Genoa though but it's not the end of the world.  Got her in the salt and raced around Paisley island with the Sunshine Coast Yacht Club on Sunday.  We got spun around by some crazy wind behind Ragged Island which cost us some time.  Ended up dropping from 4th to 5th place by 11 seconds.  Not bad for a first race with a boat that isn't even remotely setup for racing.  It's so awesome to be able to actually flatten the sails out and point!  It was worth the $2000 just to not look like a piece of shit with a beer logo on the sails.

P_20180527_165459.thumb.jpg.71b8660067050dae3fd2e8fe8f277788.jpg

P_20180527_165524.thumb.jpg.4e6720379a1dbaf8d6689c0b30db3c0f.jpg

P_20180527_173145.thumb.jpg.b5d80126192b0a058317e57e4577b71d.jpg

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And of course I fucked up and bent my toggles while stepping the mast.  That was a serious facepalm moment.  Not even remotely excited about how much those are going to cost to replace :angry: At least I didn't bend the turnbuckle bodies or I would have been really choked.  I'm going to try to straighten them as they aren't that bad.  If it goes poorly I'll have to shell out $70.

P_20180529_201130.thumb.jpg.2beda3ae368b1531fed555e2d02c0b61.jpg

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Good looking sail.

Buy new toggles - those are seriously fucked up. You don't want your rig to fall and take out that beautiful new sail.

"For want of a nail........"

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13 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Good looking sail.

Buy new toggles - those are seriously fucked up. You don't want your rig to fall and take out that beautiful new sail.

"For want of a nail........"

what he said, not the place to save the price of a dinner out. 

 

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1 hour ago, Tempest said:

And of course I fucked up and bent my toggles while stepping the mast.  That was a serious facepalm moment.  Not even remotely excited about how much those are going to cost to replace :angry: At least I didn't bend the turnbuckle bodies or I would have been really choked.  I'm going to try to straighten them as they aren't that bad.  If it goes poorly I'll have to shell out $70.

P_20180529_201130.thumb.jpg.2beda3ae368b1531fed555e2d02c0b61.jpg

"Ronstan" is Australian for "broken".

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Sails are beautiful, congrats.

You can always get a window added to the genny.

Definitely replace the toggles.  We used a short loop if line tied thru the barrels of the upper and lower shroud on our Santana 20, kept the toggles on the top of the chainplate when stepping the mast.   We just left the loops more or less permanently rigged, didn't get all yucky like tape.

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Good looking sail.

Buy new toggles - those are seriously fucked up. You don't want your rig to fall and take out that beautiful new sail.

"For want of a nail........"

Very nice looking sail. Those were made by Precision?

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5 hours ago, Tempest said:

Got the new sails!  They look awesome.  Kinda wish I had paid a little extra and got a window in the Genoa though but it's not the end of the world.  Got her in the salt and raced around Paisley island with the Sunshine Coast Yacht Club on Sunday.  We got spun around by some crazy wind behind Ragged Island which cost us some time.  Ended up dropping from 4th to 5th place by 11 seconds.  Not bad for a first race with a boat that isn't even remotely setup for racing.  It's so awesome to be able to actually flatten the sails out and point!  It was worth the $2000 just to not look like a piece of shit with a beer logo on the sails.

P_20180527_165459.thumb.jpg.71b8660067050dae3fd2e8fe8f277788.jpg

P_20180527_165524.thumb.jpg.4e6720379a1dbaf8d6689c0b30db3c0f.jpg

P_20180527_173145.thumb.jpg.b5d80126192b0a058317e57e4577b71d.jpg

 

Beauty! Those sails look good, you did all right this time!

Advice: practice reefing when it's calm.

More advice- replace those toggles, don't try to straighten 'em. What he said

And summer is just beginning, GO SAIL !!!!

FB- Doug

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Sails look great Tempest.

Tugs and log booms would def be a course hazard in Collingwood Channel...

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Good looking sail.

Buy new toggles - those are seriously fucked up. You don't want your rig to fall and take out that beautiful new sail.

"For want of a nail........"

Fffaaaaaahhhk, why do you guys always have to be the voice of reason?  I wanted to hear "Straighten em out, they'll be fine!"

9 hours ago, Blitz said:

Tape those toggles so they stand up before stepping the mast.

Don't know that I want to tape them but I need some sort of solution.  I was thinking maybe stainless springs.

8 hours ago, CruiserJim said:

Sails are beautiful, congrats.

You can always get a window added to the genny. 

Definitely replace the toggles.  We used a short loop if line tied thru the barrels of the upper and lower shroud on our Santana 20, kept the toggles on the top of the chainplate when stepping the mast.   We just left the loops more or less permanently rigged, didn't get all yucky like tape.

Not sure that I know what you mean.  As in you just tied the inner shroud barrel to the outer shroud barrel?  That might actually work but they will probably still flop over.  I'll give it a try with the new toggles. 

6 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Very nice looking sail. Those were made by Precision?

Yup.

3 hours ago, Norse Horse said:

Sails look great Tempest.

Tugs and log booms would def be a course hazard in Collingwood Channel...

Thanks man!  Hopefully I'll see you on the water this summer.  Gonna have to sail up to your neck of the woods.

Ha, I had no idea that was called Collingwood Channel.  Led me to something interesting that I also didn't know about....
http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/unique/JATHD

Didn't see any logs or tugs on Sunday.

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I really want an autopilot so I can single hand this summer but the reviews on the Raymarine and Simrad units are dismal at best.  In fact, it sounds like they are complete pieces of shit with horrendous customer support.  It got me thinking that it might not be too hard to build one.  I was actually going to build the actuator but it would probably be a lot easier to buy one of these:

https://www.thomsonlinear.com/en/product/HD12B017-0300CNO1EES

And wire it up with an arduino.  There are lots of guys on the internet doing cool shit that looks WAY better than the garbage from Raymarine and Simrad.

 

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6 hours ago, Tempest said:

Not sure that I know what you mean.  As in you just tied the inner shroud barrel to the outer shroud barrel?  That might actually work but they will probably still flop over.  I'll give it a try with the new toggles. 

Yes, exactly.  Worked great on the S-20.  The chainstays were aligned athwartships so if they tried to flop over they were pivoting from different points which caused the barrels to move lengthwise relative to each other. Before they got to the flop over point the loop of line would draw tight and stop the motion. Easy enough to experiment with when the rig is down to see if it will work for you. Tape works too, just looks like shit after a bit and leaves residue.  

Of course I learned this the hard way, after bending a toggle just like you did.  

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6 hours ago, Tempest said:

There are lots of guys on the internet doing cool shit that looks WAY better than the garbage from Raymarine and Simrad.

Pretty hard to beat a tiller pilot for simplicity and cost if all you want it to do is hold a compass course with relatively flat water... 

You can design/build/debug a more complex system, and integrate sensors but other than for fun, your return on the time for a one off will be negative unless your an exceptionally gifted designer, fabricator and test engineer with free materials and fully depreciated tools...  

https://pelagicautopilot.com/collections/all  might be an alternative for a simple system 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Pretty hard to beat a tiller pilot for simplicity and cost if all you want it to do is hold a compass course with relatively flat water... 

You can design/build/debug a more complex system, and integrate sensors but other than for fun, your return on the time for a one off will be negative unless your an exceptionally gifted designer, fabricator and test engineer with free materials and fully depreciated tools...   

https://pelagicautopilot.com/collections/all  might be an alternative for a simple system 

 

 

 

True, although designing, developing and manufacturing commercial and consumer products is what I do for a living so I might be able to pull it off ;)

That Pelagic system would be expensive by the time it landed at my door (considering the state of the Kanadian Kopek) but it might be worth it.  Wondering how corrosion resistant their actuator is.

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The only complains I've heard about Tillerpilots are from people using them offshore - Webb Chiles comes immediately to mind. I think he ended up buying them by the case.

Sailing around here they seem to do O/K. People using the small one on a marginal basis can be a problem - a 6000 Lb design displacement boat using the small one when fully loaded for cruising and that sort of thing.

Taking them home when not in use seems to help as well.

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The electronics in the ST1000/2000 are ancient by modern standards.   With what we have today with RPi, smartphone magnetometers, bluetooth, one could make something vastly superior for a device that sells for $500+.  Use a smartphone as a remote instead of a $400 single purpose device from Raymarine.

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43 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

The only complains I've heard about Tillerpilots are from people using them offshore - Webb Chiles comes immediately to mind. I think he ended up buying them by the case.

Sailing around here they seem to do O/K. People using the small one on a marginal basis can be a problem - a 6000 Lb design displacement boat using the small one when fully loaded for cruising and that sort of thing.

Taking them home when not in use seems to help as well.

Well for $6-700, landed at my door, I demand something better than "OK".  There should be at least a basic level of electronic robustness and water resistance.  Not only that but they've been making these things for YEARS.  It's not like they're not aware of the problems with them as the internet tells me they have received BOAT LOADS of feedback.

The displacement on my boat is only 3200lbs (maybe 4000lbs with water food and a couple of bodies) so I'd be well within the specs of the 1000/10.  I just want something that will point the boat while I raise/lower sails and/or go below for a drink or a BM.  That convenience is worth $600 to me.... but not if it only lasts 2 years... and if out of those 2 years I'm without the unit for 6 months while they fix/replace it.  I guess if it shits the bed I'd at least have the guts to play with.  <_<

33 minutes ago, xyzzy said:

The electronics in the ST1000/2000 are ancient by modern standards.   With what we have today with RPi, smartphone magnetometers, bluetooth, one could make something vastly superior for a device that sells for $500+.  Use a smartphone as a remote instead of a $400 single purpose device from Raymarine.

I agree.  I think RPi might even be overkill.  This is something that's well within the capability of an arduino.  Check this guys unit out.  Friggen awesome.

Was looking around all night last night to see if I could find and off-the-shelf linear actuator that was weather proof/corrosion resistant to save myself the hassle of building one.  So far I haven't found much for reasonable prices.

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