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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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From the Front Page.

 

Did I miss the thread?

 

Looks sweet. Are the days of West Coast sledding back?

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Awesome class. Great to see those with the means spending the $$ on the Left Coast. Only the purveyors of this site would find something to bitch about. 4 new big boats on the west coast. By my math that's 4 more than what was there before. Sounds like a win to me.

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Awesome class. Great to see those with the means spending the $$ on the Left Coast. Only the purveyors of this site would find something to bitch about. 4 new big boats on the west coast. By my math that's 4 more than what was there before. Sounds like a win to me.

you must be new here, I swear tempesta could find a reason to bitch about a good blowjob. that said he does make the vaild point that this is so similar to the TP52 that from a marketing standpoint it could be a hard sell to get someone to pony up the dollars for one of these new class of boats as opposed to the already established TP52's. On the west coast it isn't an issue since the 52 super series doesn't go to the west coast but getting the class to catch on on the east coast and in the med might be a hard sell. however the prospect of a one design fleet that is also offshore capable is a pretty major selling point, and a big leg up I think over the what the TP52 class has become.

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Why on earth would you want it to catch on on the east coast or the med? Differentiation is the major strength the PAC class has going for it. Learn from what the super series guys are peddling in the med: "this is our playground and we love it, you can come play in it or you can play with yourselves"

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There are what, 11 TP's, and 4 Pac's either built or in built already? With rumors of at least two other boats in the works (though they could just be self generated rumors by the Class). So it isn't hard to imagine that the Pac's could be close to the same size as the TP's in two years.

 

Given what some of the Melges 32 campaigns are spending a year I am not even sure that that a Pac would be all that much more expensive. Assuming you can find a half dozen people willing to jump on board with the other pros.

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Given the Pac's are build for offshore racing, they will have plenty of life in the future for handing down the line to the boat owners who are not able to buy new boats, ie Sydney owners who like to race TP52s in the offshore series including the Sydney Hobart race with a good chance of winning overall handicap.

 

Most of the TP52s (certainly the 2nd generation and above) end up being significantly modified ($$$) to cope with off shore racing.

 

They will certainly be a blast to race offshore down wind with the big rigs and extra draft keels

 

I assume these Pac's will also be good IRC rated boats like the TP52s!

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I think the point is that you could have bought 2 mod 70 for 3 million and per year running costs would be the same when you consider how many less guys you need.

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I think the point is that you could have bought 2 mod 70 for 3 million and per year running costs would be the same when you consider how many less guys you need.

You may be right abou that.

 

The thing is not every one wants to race multi hulls and some people have more money than brains or just want to play with more than a few boats in he multi hull fleet.

 

Pulpit

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Why on earth would you want it to catch on on the east coast or the med? Differentiation is the major strength the PAC class has going for it. Learn from what the super series guys are peddling in the med: "this is our playground and we love it, you can come play in it or you can play with yourselves"

because for the builders the more boats they can build and sell the better.

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Awesome class. Great to see those with the means spending the $$ on the Left Coast. Only the purveyors of this site would find something to bitch about. 4 new big boats on the west coast. By my math that's 4 more than what was there before. Sounds like a win to me.

you must be new here, I swear tempesta could find a reason to bitch about a good blowjob. that said he does make the vaild point that this is so similar to the TP52 that from a marketing standpoint it could be a hard sell to get someone to pony up the dollars for one of these new class of boats as opposed to the already established TP52's. On the west coast it isn't an issue since the 52 super series doesn't go to the west coast but getting the class to catch on on the east coast and in the med might be a hard sell. however the prospect of a one design fleet that is also offshore capable is a pretty major selling point, and a big leg up I think over the what the TP52 class has become.

 

Haha! No, not new, but always surprised for some reason with all the bithcing.

 

If the older boats are so attractive why isn't anyone buying them, at least in California? They've left to the PNW. It seems the Pac52 folks are content with staying in CA, as I think was the original intent of the TP52 class. After all the original class was created to race Transpac.

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And when in the history of sailing have people dropped millions of dollars on a boat just because it's good for the builder?

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Awesome class. Great to see those with the means spending the $$ on the Left Coast. Only the purveyors of this site would find something to bitch about. 4 new big boats on the west coast. By my math that's 4 more than what was there before. Sounds like a win to me.

you must be new here, I swear tempesta could find a reason to bitch about a good blowjob. that said he does make the vaild point that this is so similar to the TP52 that from a marketing standpoint it could be a hard sell to get someone to pony up the dollars for one of these new class of boats as opposed to the already established TP52's. On the west coast it isn't an issue since the 52 super series doesn't go to the west coast but getting the class to catch on on the east coast and in the med might be a hard sell. however the prospect of a one design fleet that is also offshore capable is a pretty major selling point, and a big leg up I think over the what the TP52 class has become.

 

 

I don't think that means what you think it means.

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Awesome class. Great to see those with the means spending the $$ on the Left Coast. Only the purveyors of this site would find something to bitch about. 4 new big boats on the west coast. By my math that's 4 more than what was there before. Sounds like a win to me.

you must be new here, I swear tempesta could find a reason to bitch about a good blowjob. that said he does make the vaild point that this is so similar to the TP52 that from a marketing standpoint it could be a hard sell to get someone to pony up the dollars for one of these new class of boats as opposed to the already established TP52's. On the west coast it isn't an issue since the 52 super series doesn't go to the west coast but getting the class to catch on on the east coast and in the med might be a hard sell. however the prospect of a one design fleet that is also offshore capable is a pretty major selling point, and a big leg up I think over the what the TP52 class has become.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Box Rule, think I14s rather than 49ers.

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PAC 52 Class Rules are pretty easy to get a SuperSeries boat to measure into if someone wants to buy used and join the fun. The key is that the PAC 52s are all built to an ORR Max Rating. So shave some lead off a SuperSeries Boat, add a Bigger Square Top and 10m larger spin and you are good to go...

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And when in the history of sailing have people dropped millions of dollars on a boat just because it's good for the builder?

you missed my point. my point is that the builder isn't going to want to keep the class to one specific area. they'll want to see the class catch on in as any areas as possible, ya know, so they can sell more boats.

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Awesome class. Great to see those with the means spending the $$ on the Left Coast. Only the purveyors of this site would find something to bitch about. 4 new big boats on the west coast. By my math that's 4 more than what was there before. Sounds like a win to me.

you must be new here, I swear tempesta could find a reason to bitch about a good blowjob. that said he does make the vaild point that this is so similar to the TP52 that from a marketing standpoint it could be a hard sell to get someone to pony up the dollars for one of these new class of boats as opposed to the already established TP52's. On the west coast it isn't an issue since the 52 super series doesn't go to the west coast but getting the class to catch on on the east coast and in the med might be a hard sell. however the prospect of a one design fleet that is also offshore capable is a pretty major selling point, and a big leg up I think over the what the TP52 class has become.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Box Rule, think I14s rather than 49ers.

 

ah gotcha, thanks. correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the original TP52 class a box rule as well?

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Awesome class. Great to see those with the means spending the $$ on the Left Coast. Only the purveyors of this site would find something to bitch about. 4 new big boats on the west coast. By my math that's 4 more than what was there before. Sounds like a win to me.

you must be new here, I swear tempesta could find a reason to bitch about a good blowjob. that said he does make the vaild point that this is so similar to the TP52 that from a marketing standpoint it could be a hard sell to get someone to pony up the dollars for one of these new class of boats as opposed to the already established TP52's. On the west coast it isn't an issue since the 52 super series doesn't go to the west coast but getting the class to catch on on the east coast and in the med might be a hard sell. however the prospect of a one design fleet that is also offshore capable is a pretty major selling point, and a big leg up I think over the what the TP52 class has become.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Box Rule, think I14s rather than 49ers.

 

ah gotcha, thanks. correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the original TP52 class a box rule as well?

 

Yah. Won't be long until the engineering arms war starts and kills this class. Especially in such a small fish bowl.

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Awesome class. Great to see those with the means spending the $$ on the Left Coast. Only the purveyors of this site would find something to bitch about. 4 new big boats on the west coast. By my math that's 4 more than what was there before. Sounds like a win to me.

you must be new here, I swear tempesta could find a reason to bitch about a good blowjob. that said he does make the vaild point that this is so similar to the TP52 that from a marketing standpoint it could be a hard sell to get someone to pony up the dollars for one of these new class of boats as opposed to the already established TP52's. On the west coast it isn't an issue since the 52 super series doesn't go to the west coast but getting the class to catch on on the east coast and in the med might be a hard sell. however the prospect of a one design fleet that is also offshore capable is a pretty major selling point, and a big leg up I think over the what the TP52 class has become.

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Box Rule, think I14s rather than 49ers.

 

ah gotcha, thanks. correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the original TP52 class a box rule as well?

 

Yah. Won't be long until the engineering arms war starts and kills this class. Especially in such a small fish bowl.

 

hopefully not, I'd like to see this class take off.

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It seems to be working for the Fast40 class in the Solent...high level racing in one region with owners who get the spirit of the class.

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I love the idea. Curious what the differences in the classes actually are though. Any taking away from the 52 Super Series would suck, as it's currently what I believe to be the best high end racing going on currently.

 

Are they different enough to attract different crowds?

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It will be a limited class in a limited area as for so many others. Nothing wrong with that but it will not take over the world.

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I love the idea. Curious what the differences in the classes actually are though. Any taking away from the 52 Super Series would suck, as it's currently what I believe to be the best high end racing going on currently.

 

Are they different enough to attract different crowds?

It's not so much the boats are different, just the location. Some guys just don't want to be jetting back and forth to the Med. A lot easier to just sail in California, Mexico once in a while, transpacific when the mood strikes. A couple of these boats might even do Key West.

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From the video there's talk of the bigger offshore races - STH, Transpac etc.The boat is capable at least.

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I love the idea. Curious what the differences in the classes actually are though. Any taking away from the 52 Super Series would suck, as it's currently what I believe to be the best high end racing going on currently.

 

Are they different enough to attract different crowds?

It's not so much the boats are different, just the location. Some guys just don't want to be jetting back and forth to the Med. A lot easier to just sail in California, Mexico once in a while, transpacific when the mood strikes. A couple of these boats might even do Key West.

 

 

frankly if this class and the TP52 class kinda each stayed in their respective corners it would be good for both classes, 52 super series does the east coast and the med the pac 52's dot he west coast, mexico, transpac/paccup S2H and maybe see the classes crossover a bit in key west it could be cool. sure as shit none of the current TP52's are tough enough for a S2H

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I love the idea. Curious what the differences in the classes actually are though. Any taking away from the 52 Super Series would suck, as it's currently what I believe to be the best high end racing going on currently.

 

Are they different enough to attract different crowds?

It's not so much the boats are different, just the location. Some guys just don't want to be jetting back and forth to the Med. A lot easier to just sail in California, Mexico once in a while, transpacific when the mood strikes. A couple of these boats might even do Key West.

frankly if this class and the TP52 class kinda each stayed in their respective corners it would be good for both classes, 52 super series does the east coast and the med the pac 52's dot he west coast, mexico, transpac/paccup S2H and maybe see the classes crossover a bit in key west it could be cool. sure as shit none of the current TP52's are tough enough for a S2H

They are like step brothers. Both have the same mother however are built with different dads.

 

Wonderful spinoff, although same ideology, so step brothers?

 

No idea why the hate.

 

One is inshore Grand Prix racing.

 

The other is inshore/offshore semi/Grand Prix racing. Actually what we all should hope a 20 year old box rule should accomplish.

 

Well done. Standing by hoping the media follows.

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Suggesting the class will be limited is not hate just an observation.

 

Getting an ex Med TP52 and modifying it for Hobart (as a lot of Aussies have done) is still very likely cheaper than one of these.

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I love the idea. Curious what the differences in the classes actually are though. Any taking away from the 52 Super Series would suck, as it's currently what I believe to be the best high end racing going on currently.

 

Are they different enough to attract different crowds?

It's not so much the boats are different, just the location. Some guys just don't want to be jetting back and forth to the Med. A lot easier to just sail in California, Mexico once in a while, transpacific when the mood strikes. A couple of these boats might even do Key West.

frankly if this class and the TP52 class kinda each stayed in their respective corners it would be good for both classes, 52 super series does the east coast and the med the pac 52's dot he west coast, mexico, transpac/paccup S2H and maybe see the classes crossover a bit in key west it could be cool. sure as shit none of the current TP52's are tough enough for a S2H

They are like step brothers. Both have the same mother however are built with different dads.

 

Wonderful spinoff, although same ideology, so step brothers?

 

No idea why the hate.

 

One is inshore Grand Prix racing.

 

The other is inshore/offshore semi/Grand Prix racing. Actually what we all should hope a 20 year old box rule should accomplish.

 

Well done. Standing by hoping the media follows.

 

 

The added ORC rating limit is positive too. So you not only have the constraints of the box but a rating limit within that box, like a super box rule.

 

I'm not so sure media is needed. I hope the social media is strong however, as I know a few people involved and it will be fun to follow along. I think there are plenty of West Coast owner with the coin. And maybe the likes of Karl Kwok will come play.

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Suggesting the class will be limited is not hate just an observation.

 

Getting an ex Med TP52 and modifying it for Hobart (as a lot of Aussies have done) is still very likely cheaper than one of these.

Maybe, but buying a used boat is almost always cheaper than buying new. That has very little bearing on if a new class can convince enough people to buy a new boat. Different markets.

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And when in the history of sailing have people dropped millions of dollars on a boat just because it's good for the builder?

 

you missed my point. my point is that the builder isn't going to want to keep the class to one specific area. they'll want to see the class catch on in as any areas as possible, ya know, so they can sell more boats.

There's already more than one builder and more than one designer. This isn't a production gig.

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Maybe the builder should have the ball and build a set of moulds and promote this as the new Farr 40 type of class. Afte all the 50 footer seems to be the new 40 footer.

 

In the past owners have dropped lots of coin in the old Farr 40's because they were a strictly one design class and close racing and this helped he Class grow all over the world and some owners had multiple boats so they could fly in and out for regattas.

 

Why can't the PAC52 be the same type of thing ?

 

There is a old saying "if you build it they will come" I think owners will be willing to drop coin into new boats if they see they are going to get value for the $$$$$ and the racing is close and fair.

 

Let's face it top owners in the Farr 40's used to through $$$$$ in telephone numbers at their campaigns and the PAC 52 could be no different and not a lot more $$$$$ either.

 

What the builder needs to do is talk to the current 4 owners and work together and set up the class to attract more owners and sell the dream that this is a modern Farr 40 type of class, but better and more exciting.

 

Pulpit

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You guys keep saying "builder". There are only four boats, but already 2 builders. Which builder gets to move this forward?

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How about everyone just shuts up unless they know like... anything...about how Grand Prix sailing works.

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Maybe the builder should have the ball and build a set of moulds and promote this as the new Farr 40 type of class. Afte all the 50 footer seems to be the new 40 footer.

 

In the past owners have dropped lots of coin in the old Farr 40's because they were a strictly one design class and close racing and this helped he Class grow all over the world and some owners had multiple boats so they could fly in and out for regattas.

 

Why can't the PAC52 be the same type of thing ?

 

There is a old saying "if you build it they will come" I think owners will be willing to drop coin into new boats if they see they are going to get value for the $$$$$ and the racing is close and fair.

 

Let's face it top owners in the Farr 40's used to through $$$$$ in telephone numbers at their campaigns and the PAC 52 could be no different and not a lot more $$$$$ either.

 

What the builder needs to do is talk to the current 4 owners and work together and set up the class to attract more owners and sell the dream that this is a modern Farr 40 type of class, but better and more exciting.

 

Pulpit

Only at least double

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Maybe the builder should have the ball and build a set of moulds and promote this as the new Farr 40 type of class. Afte all the 50 footer seems to be the new 40 footer.

In the past owners have dropped lots of coin in the old Farr 40's because they were a strictly one design class and close racing and this helped he Class grow all over the world and some owners had multiple boats so they could fly in and out for regattas.

Why can't the PAC52 be the same type of thing ?

There is a old saying "if you build it they will come" I think owners will be willing to drop coin into new boats if they see they are going to get value for the $$$$$ and the racing is close and fair.Let's face it top owners in the Farr 40's used to through $$$$$ in telephone numbers at their campaigns and the PAC 52 could be no different and not a lot more $$$$$ either.

What the builder needs to do is talk to the current 4 owners and work together and set up the class to attract more owners and sell the dream that this is a modern Farr 40 type of class, but better and more exciting.

Pulpit

 

Only at least double

If they use the Farr 40 rules as a template maybe not.

 

Anyway if you can afford to build a new boat you can afford to run it and campaign it. We aren't talking about the every man on the street here, these owner have the coin and want to play. So let then

 

Pulpit

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Maybe the builder should have the ball and build a set of moulds and promote this as the new Farr 40 type of class. Afte all the 50 footer seems to be the new 40 footer.

In the past owners have dropped lots of coin in the old Farr 40's because they were a strictly one design class and close racing and this helped he Class grow all over the world and some owners had multiple boats so they could fly in and out for regattas.

Why can't the PAC52 be the same type of thing ?

There is a old saying "if you build it they will come" I think owners will be willing to drop coin into new boats if they see they are going to get value for the $$$$$ and the racing is close and fair.Let's face it top owners in the Farr 40's used to through $$$$$ in telephone numbers at their campaigns and the PAC 52 could be no different and not a lot more $$$$$ either.

What the builder needs to do is talk to the current 4 owners and work together and set up the class to attract more owners and sell the dream that this is a modern Farr 40 type of class, but better and more exciting.

Pulpit

Only at least double

If they use the Farr 40 rules as a template maybe not.

 

Anyway if you can afford to build a new boat you can afford to run it and campaign it. We aren't talking about the every man on the street here, these owner have the coin and want to play. So let then

 

Pulpit

 

 

WTF are you talking about? These are custom boats with different designers and builders built to a box rule and ORC rating. They are not one-design. There is no "builder".

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Lot's of pundits here. Stumbling around in the dark. Class DOA.

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Probably. Looks mostly like a bunch of fellas agreeing to have dinner and race boats that will turn up at the party roughly together.

 

Good fun until order becomes established then it'll be on to the next thing with the boats heading for pastures IRC.

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The reason the TP52 remains so strong is that there are like 110 of them around, meaning the pool of knowledge and second hand boats and gear is extensive. It's also 'cause the boat is a blast inshore or offshore.

 

I'm sure the PAC52 is a weapon, but the concept reminds me of the STP a little too much to get excited about success; we've seen that picture before. Looks like a sweet box though!

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The reason the TP52 remains so strong is that there are like 110 of them around, meaning the pool of knowledge and second hand boats and gear is extensive. It's also 'cause the boat is a blast inshore or offshore.

 

I'm sure the PAC52 is a weapon, but the concept reminds me of the STP a little too much to get excited about success; we've seen that picture before. Looks like a sweet box though!

 

Yet again Clean, ED, SA explain why they hate something about sailing.

 

This regatta sucks...

This boat sucks...

This class sucks...

These people suck...

 

If people who have the means, choose to build and sail a certain boat, it has nothing to do with your opinions.

 

And FYI they already have built more boats than the STP's. Also the TP52's have hundreds, however they started somewhere, with hulls #1 and #2.

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The reason the TP52 remains so strong is that there are like 110 of them around, meaning the pool of knowledge and second hand boats and gear is extensive. It's also 'cause the boat is a blast inshore or offshore.

 

I'm sure the PAC52 is a weapon, but the concept reminds me of the STP a little too much to get excited about success; we've seen that picture before. Looks like a sweet box though!

I took your post and ran it through google translate from Clean to English....

 

I'm a useless whore and am pretty sure this class will fail because they haven't bought any ads on my sugar daddy's website.

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Maybe the builder should have the ball and build a set of moulds and promote this as the new Farr 40 type of class. Afte all the 50 footer seems to be the new 40 footer.

In the past owners have dropped lots of coin in the old Farr 40's because they were a strictly one design class and close racing and this helped he Class grow all over the world and some owners had multiple boats so they could fly in and out for regattas.

Why can't the PAC52 be the same type of thing ?

There is a old saying "if you build it they will come" I think owners will be willing to drop coin into new boats if they see they are going to get value for the $$$$$ and the racing is close and fair.Let's face it top owners in the Farr 40's used to through $$$$$ in telephone numbers at their campaigns and the PAC 52 could be no different and not a lot more $$$$$ either.

What the builder needs to do is talk to the current 4 owners and work together and set up the class to attract more owners and sell the dream that this is a modern Farr 40 type of class, but better and more exciting.

Pulpit

Only at least double

If they use the Farr 40 rules as a template maybe not.

 

Anyway if you can afford to build a new boat you can afford to run it and campaign it. We aren't talking about the every man on the street here, these owner have the coin and want to play. So let then

 

Pulpit

 

 

WTF are you talking about? These are custom boats with different designers and builders built to a box rule and ORC rating. They are not one-design. There is no "builder".

 

 

They are starting with the JV design and using the existing molds, adding the gear and extra freeboard to the boat to make it offshore capable. Keel and rig changes at this time, may be newer design/builds in the future. Seems to work for the TP and may work here, if it does, great.

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The reason the TP52 remains so strong is that there are like 110 of them around, meaning the pool of knowledge and second hand boats and gear is extensive. It's also 'cause the boat is a blast inshore or offshore.

 

I'm sure the PAC52 is a weapon, but the concept reminds me of the STP a little too much to get excited about success; we've seen that picture before. Looks like a sweet box though!

Yet again Clean, ED, SA explain why they hate something about sailing.

 

This regatta sucks...

This boat sucks...

This class sucks...

These people suck...

 

If people who have the means, choose to build and sail a certain boat, it has nothing to do with your opinions.

 

And FYI they already have built more boats than the STP's. Also the TP52's have hundreds, however they started somewhere, with hulls #1 and #2.

AFAIK there were 4 STP65s built. Rosebud, Moneypenny, Luna Rossa, Container. So I'd say it's a draw at this point.

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Maybe the builder should have the ball and build a set of moulds and promote this as the new Farr 40 type of class. Afte all the 50 footer seems to be the new 40 footer.

In the past owners have dropped lots of coin in the old Farr 40's because they were a strictly one design class and close racing and this helped he Class grow all over the world and some owners had multiple boats so they could fly in and out for regattas.

Why can't the PAC52 be the same type of thing ?

There is a old saying "if you build it they will come" I think owners will be willing to drop coin into new boats if they see they are going to get value for the $$$$$ and the racing is close and fair.Let's face it top owners in the Farr 40's used to through $$$$$ in telephone numbers at their campaigns and the PAC 52 could be no different and not a lot more $$$$$ either.

What the builder needs to do is talk to the current 4 owners and work together and set up the class to attract more owners and sell the dream that this is a modern Farr 40 type of class, but better and more exciting.

Pulpit

Only at least double
If they use the Farr 40 rules as a template maybe not.

 

Anyway if you can afford to build a new boat you can afford to run it and campaign it. We aren't talking about the every man on the street here, these owner have the coin and want to play. So let then

 

Pulpit

WTF are you talking about? These are custom boats with different designers and builders built to a box rule and ORC rating. They are not one-design. There is no "builder".

They are starting with the JV design and using the existing molds, adding the gear and extra freeboard to the boat to make it offshore capable. Keel and rig changes at this time, may be newer design/builds in the future. Seems to work for the TP and may work here, if it does, great.

Fox is a Botin design. It's not a one-design class. Anyone can design and build a boat within the box and ORC rating, even use an existing boat. A current Med boat would just need a new rig and some tweeks.

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Maybe the builder should have the ball and build a set of moulds and promote this as the new Farr 40 type of class. Afte all the 50 footer seems to be the new 40 footer.

In the past owners have dropped lots of coin in the old Farr 40's because they were a strictly one design class and close racing and this helped he Class grow all over the world and some owners had multiple boats so they could fly in and out for regattas.

Why can't the PAC52 be the same type of thing ?

There is a old saying "if you build it they will come" I think owners will be willing to drop coin into new boats if they see they are going to get value for the $$$$$ and the racing is close and fair.Let's face it top owners in the Farr 40's used to through $$$$$ in telephone numbers at their campaigns and the PAC 52 could be no different and not a lot more $$$$$ either.

What the builder needs to do is talk to the current 4 owners and work together and set up the class to attract more owners and sell the dream that this is a modern Farr 40 type of class, but better and more exciting.

Pulpit

Only at least double
If they use the Farr 40 rules as a template maybe not.

Anyway if you can afford to build a new boat you can afford to run it and campaign it. We aren't talking about the every man on the street here, these owner have the coin and want to play. So let then

Pulpit

WTF are you talking about? These are custom boats with different designers and builders built to a box rule and ORC rating. They are not one-design. There is no "builder".

They are starting with the JV design and using the existing molds, adding the gear and extra freeboard to the boat to make it offshore capable. Keel and rig changes at this time, may be newer design/builds in the future. Seems to work for the TP and may work here, if it does, great.

Fox is a Botin design. It's not a one-design class. Anyone can design and build a boat within the box and ORC rating, even use an existing boat. A current Med boat would just need a new rig and some tweeks.

I thought the Pac's had a required freeboard number. If so your 'some tweeks' may include a new hull. Not saying it couldn't be done, but I doubt it's really cost effective.

 

Frankly I don't have any idea if the class will prosper or not. My guess is if they can get six boats on the line soon, and the racing is close enough that no one just walks away with the trophies then it could do well. If the first year series ends up with a mix of boats winning regatta's I think it becomes more approachable for the next guy who is thinking about it. But then my experience with multi-million dollar a year racing programs is pretty limited so what do I know.

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Maybe the builder should have the ball and build a set of moulds and promote this as the new Farr 40 type of class. Afte all the 50 footer seems to be the new 40 footer.

In the past owners have dropped lots of coin in the old Farr 40's because they were a strictly one design class and close racing and this helped he Class grow all over the world and some owners had multiple boats so they could fly in and out for regattas.

Why can't the PAC52 be the same type of thing ?

There is a old saying "if you build it they will come" I think owners will be willing to drop coin into new boats if they see they are going to get value for the $$$$$ and the racing is close and fair.Let's face it top owners in the Farr 40's used to through $$$$$ in telephone numbers at their campaigns and the PAC 52 could be no different and not a lot more $$$$$ either.

What the builder needs to do is talk to the current 4 owners and work together and set up the class to attract more owners and sell the dream that this is a modern Farr 40 type of class, but better and more exciting.

Pulpit

Only at least double
If they use the Farr 40 rules as a template maybe not.

 

Anyway if you can afford to build a new boat you can afford to run it and campaign it. We aren't talking about the every man on the street here, these owner have the coin and want to play. So let then

 

Pulpit

WTF are you talking about? These are custom boats with different designers and builders built to a box rule and ORC rating. They are not one-design. There is no "builder".

They are starting with the JV design and using the existing molds, adding the gear and extra freeboard to the boat to make it offshore capable. Keel and rig changes at this time, may be newer design/builds in the future. Seems to work for the TP and may work here, if it does, great.

Fox is a Botin design. It's not a one-design class. Anyone can design and build a boat within the box and ORC rating, even use an existing boat. A current Med boat would just need a new rig and some tweeks.

I would love to hear your definition definition of tweeks.

 

 

I doubt you have ever been through a boat build or refit. Sorry, boat tweek.

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I'm not sure why you feel the need question my experience but everything i've referenced is in the actual published Pac52 rule. Go do some reading. Even just read this thread. Beyond the taller rig there isn't much more that would need to be done. And has been talked about in other threads, there are plenty of "tweaks" that have been done to older TP52's to make them more seaworthy.

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Just so we are all clear, you are stating the only difference and or modification is a larger rig. Correct?

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When did i ever say that was the only modification? Go read the rule and study what's been done on the new boats. Reread the thread. Then come back to class. If you're trusting an interweb forum for your info, then you're already lost. Go read the rule and then you can correct me if I'm wrong. I can take it.

 

The rig is the biggest difference however. The motors are smaller and lighter and the keels are different. Many of the IRC52's have the same mods. Spookie is one of them. It was actually spec'd for the SuperSeries before it was modified. The 3 newest Pac52 boats have running rigging above deck to decrease water ingress offshore. Fox has a deck laytout similar to the Med boats. Beau geste is a near sister and probably the only thing stopping them from being a Pac52 is the class dues.

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Suggesting the class will be limited is not hate just an observation.

 

Getting an ex Med TP52 and modifying it for Hobart (as a lot of Aussies have done) is still very likely cheaper than one of these.

 

+1. The successful TP52's in Australia have been the ex ETNZ TP52 for example and ex Azzura. They were both purchased to make way for new gen boats. They were strengthened for off shore stuff etc. I can only guess they would have been in the water for around half of a PAC52? The other attraction with the TP52's is they continue to get faster due to competitive development of the box rule, will the PAC52's enjoy this same development? I love the concept of the PAC52 so only commenting on what's happening in Australia.

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Suggesting the class will be limited is not hate just an observation.

 

Getting an ex Med TP52 and modifying it for Hobart (as a lot of Aussies have done) is still very likely cheaper than one of these.

+1. The successful TP52's in Australia have been the ex ETNZ TP52 for example and ex Azzura. They were both purchased to make way for new gen boats. They were strengthened for off shore stuff etc. I can only guess they would have been in the water for around half of a PAC52? The other attraction with the TP52's is they continue to get faster due to competitive development of the box rule, will the PAC52's enjoy this same development?

I think that's the magic of Pac52 that people are missing. It sounds like a place where current gen or just previous gen TP52'S can live a second life and still race level. There may be some mods to fit the different box and rating but might be a cheaper option.

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Suggesting the class will be limited is not hate just an observation.

 

Getting an ex Med TP52 and modifying it for Hobart (as a lot of Aussies have done) is still very likely cheaper than one of these.

+1. The successful TP52's in Australia have been the ex ETNZ TP52 for example and ex Azzura. They were both purchased to make way for new gen boats. They were strengthened for off shore stuff etc. I can only guess they would have been in the water for around half of a PAC52? The other attraction with the TP52's is they continue to get faster due to competitive development of the box rule, will the PAC52's enjoy this same development?

I think that's the magic of Pac52 that people are missing. It sounds like a place where current gen or just previous gen TP52'S can live a second life and still race level. There may be some mods to fit the different box and rating but might be a cheaper option.

 

-after you plug in a new stick, add new sails and add enough carbon to the structure so it doesn't crack in 1/2? Don't think they'll be many takers there.

I don't think the goal is to get old TP 52's to fit in the box. I think the goal is to have a class that will always beat refurbished 52's across the line, but be close enough in rating to get the to show up and play.

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Suggesting the class will be limited is not hate just an observation.

 

Getting an ex Med TP52 and modifying it for Hobart (as a lot of Aussies have done) is still very likely cheaper than one of these.

+1. The successful TP52's in Australia have been the ex ETNZ TP52 for example and ex Azzura. They were both purchased to make way for new gen boats. They were strengthened for off shore stuff etc. I can only guess they would have been in the water for around half of a PAC52? The other attraction with the TP52's is they continue to get faster due to competitive development of the box rule, will the PAC52's enjoy this same development?

I think that's the magic of Pac52 that people are missing. It sounds like a place where current gen or just previous gen TP52'S can live a second life and still race level. There may be some mods to fit the different box and rating but might be a cheaper option.

-after you plug in a new stick, add new sails and add enough carbon to the structure so it doesn't crack in 1/2? Don't think they'll be many takers there.

I don't think the goal is to get old TP 52's to fit in the box. I think the goal is to have a class that will always beat refurbished 52's across the line, but be close enough in rating to get the to show up and play.

That's probably the best synopsis yet. It's just talk until I win the lottery. But i know people involved and they're having a blast. I guess that's all that matters.

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Suggesting the class will be limited is not hate just an observation.

 

Getting an ex Med TP52 and modifying it for Hobart (as a lot of Aussies have done) is still very likely cheaper than one of these.

+1. The successful TP52's in Australia have been the ex ETNZ TP52 for example and ex Azzura. They were both purchased to make way for new gen boats. They were strengthened for off shore stuff etc. I can only guess they would have been in the water for around half of a PAC52? The other attraction with the TP52's is they continue to get faster due to competitive development of the box rule, will the PAC52's enjoy this same development?

I think that's the magic of Pac52 that people are missing. It sounds like a place where current gen or just previous gen TP52'S can live a second life and still race level. There may be some mods to fit the different box and rating but might be a cheaper option.

 

-after you plug in a new stick, add new sails and add enough carbon to the structure so it doesn't crack in 1/2? Don't think they'll be many takers there.

I don't think the goal is to get old TP 52's to fit in the box. I think the goal is to have a class that will always beat refurbished 52's across the line, but be close enough in rating to get the to show up and play

 

If there is going to be class racing alone with enough PAC52's in the USA then that's great. In Australia re-cycled TP52's are selling very well. Plenty of takers. 2 different markets though.

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In Australia there are three TP52s (RKO, SMB and Ichi Ban) that are modern and race offshore with limitations. RKO did the BWPS but not the Hobart. Ichi Ban underwent strengthening, including the addition of an offshore rig. SMB did a Gold Coast race but hasn't been taken south.

 

The limitations of those boats are exposed when they race a boat like Beau Geste, which is substantially newer and effectively a different generation.

 

The remaining TP52s that are racing are all older designs that were among the original boats built between 2003-2006. Koa & Balance were sister ships, M3 and Cougar are slightly newer, Celestial is a bit newer again. There is little material difference between these vessels. Their strong enough to do all races and all of them can win on their day.

 

Two older boats are Frantic and SWD, which haven't had the upgrades and birthdays that the other boats have had. They are both offshore boats and are bulletproof designs.

 

The racing among these older boats is very tight and good fun, but they lack the legs to compete consistently with the newer boats mentioned above. It's a fleet within a fleet and they rate very effectively on IRC.

 

The giant cat amongst the pigeons will be the arrival of the new Ichi Ban later this year.

 

It is a new 52, but it will have the offshore rig and sails from the old Ichi Ban. The inshore rig will go back onto the old boat, reverting it back to the same state as SMB.

 

The new Ichi Ban may render the older TP's totally obsolete, a bit like Beau Geste has in the inshore racing. But then again newer boats in the 50ft fleet have had a pretty shit record in the Hobart, with the 'class' being dominated by Cookson 50s, Gen 1 Tp's etc. for a long time.

 

I'm not sure that I'm super happy about a Pac52, or equivalent coming to race on the East Coast, but only because it may take away the ability to realistically win many of the big races with an older boat and amateur crew.

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You have missed Balance the winner of the Hobart which was previously Quest which also won Hobart.

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Quote: " But then again newer boats in the 50ft fleet have had a pretty shit record in the Hobart, with the 'class' being dominated by Cookson 50s, Gen 1 Tp's etc. for a long time."

 

Yes Balance the recent Hobart winner was missed which relates to the above comment although you make good points TPOT. Probably a relative question for Matt A is why he chose to commission a new TP52 and not a PAC52? I would suggest Matt wants a start of the art TP52 designed for offshore and the Hobart that gives him an edge over the competition. The PAC52 is a one design class. Perhaps Matt wants something a little different?

 

This quote from the PAC52 site "And how much is the entry to this exclusive class? The boats in the fleet right now range from $1.8 million to $2.5 million. “A new boat would be doable for $1.5 million or you could spend up to 3 million if you went for every ‘bell and whistle’ option possible,” Servais said.

Another option would be to rerofit an existing TP52. If you were to go that route, Servais shared there are some attractive options, including Vesper in San Francisco and Spookie on the East Coast, which are available immediately. “They both have the tall mast and would be pretty much ready to race as is.”

It is thrilling to see high-performance one-design racing return to the San Francisco Bay. Kudos to Frank Slootman and his fellow Pac52 owners. Learn more about the class on their webpage.

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In Australia there are three TP52s (RKO, SMB and Ichi Ban) that are modern and race offshore with limitations. RKO did the BWPS but not the Hobart. Ichi Ban underwent strengthening, including the addition of an offshore rig. SMB did a Gold Coast race but hasn't been taken south.

 

The limitations of those boats are exposed when they race a boat like Beau Geste, which is substantially newer and effectively a different generation.

 

The remaining TP52s that are racing are all older designs that were among the original boats built between 2003-2006. Koa & Balance were sister ships, M3 and Cougar are slightly newer, Celestial is a bit newer again. There is little material difference between these vessels. Their strong enough to do all races and all of them can win on their day.

 

Two older boats are Frantic and SWD, which haven't had the upgrades and birthdays that the other boats have had. They are both offshore boats and are bulletproof designs.

 

The racing among these older boats is very tight and good fun, but they lack the legs to compete consistently with the newer boats mentioned above. It's a fleet within a fleet and they rate very effectively on IRC.

 

The giant cat amongst the pigeons will be the arrival of the new Ichi Ban later this year.

 

It is a new 52, but it will have the offshore rig and sails from the old Ichi Ban. The inshore rig will go back onto the old boat, reverting it back to the same state as SMB.

 

The new Ichi Ban may render the older TP's totally obsolete, a bit like Beau Geste has in the inshore racing. But then again newer boats in the 50ft fleet have had a pretty shit record in the Hobart, with the 'class' being dominated by Cookson 50s, Gen 1 Tp's etc. for a long time.

 

I'm not sure that I'm super happy about a Pac52, or equivalent coming to race on the East Coast, but only because it may take away the ability to realistically win many of the big races with an older boat and amateur crew.

I believe that the Ichi program will have both a new inshore and offshore rig / sail program. The old Ichi 52 will be the original Shogun.

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Good luck to Matt Allen. I hope the campaigns on the West Coast of the USA see some good racing and inspire more people to do serious racing in big, expensive boats.

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Maybe the builder should have the ball and build a set of moulds and promote this as the new Farr 40 type of class. Afte all the 50 footer seems to be the new 40 footer.

In the past owners have dropped lots of coin in the old Farr 40's because they were a strictly one design class and close racing and this helped he Class grow all over the world and some owners had multiple boats so they could fly in and out for regattas.

Why can't the PAC52 be the same type of thing ?

There is a old saying "if you build it they will come" I think owners will be willing to drop coin into new boats if they see they are going to get value for the $$$$$ and the racing is close and fair.Let's face it top owners in the Farr 40's used to through $$$$$ in telephone numbers at their campaigns and the PAC 52 could be no different and not a lot more $$$$$ either.

What the builder needs to do is talk to the current 4 owners and work together and set up the class to attract more owners and sell the dream that this is a modern Farr 40 type of class, but better and more exciting.

Pulpit

Only at least double

If they use the Farr 40 rules as a template maybe not.

 

Anyway if you can afford to build a new boat you can afford to run it and campaign it. We aren't talking about the every man on the street here, these owner have the coin and want to play. So let then

 

Pulpit

 

I have no problem with peeps spending boatloads of money on these boats. What I was posting is that your statement about being able to run a PAC52 program for roughly the same as a Farr $0 program is beyond laughable - you must be smoking some weird crack.

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Maybe the builder should have the ball and build a set of moulds and promote this as the new Farr 40 type of class. Afte all the 50 footer seems to be the new 40 footer.

In the past owners have dropped lots of coin in the old Farr 40's because they were a strictly one design class and close racing and this helped he Class grow all over the world and some owners had multiple boats so they could fly in and out for regattas.

Why can't the PAC52 be the same type of thing ?

There is a old saying "if you build it they will come" I think owners will be willing to drop coin into new boats if they see they are going to get value for the $$$$$ and the racing is close and fair.Let's face it top owners in the Farr 40's used to through $$$$$ in telephone numbers at their campaigns and the PAC 52 could be no different and not a lot more $$$$$ either.

What the builder needs to do is talk to the current 4 owners and work together and set up the class to attract more owners and sell the dream that this is a modern Farr 40 type of class, but better and more exciting.

Pulpit

Only at least double

If they use the Farr 40 rules as a template maybe not.

 

Anyway if you can afford to build a new boat you can afford to run it and campaign it. We aren't talking about the every man on the street here, these owner have the coin and want to play. So let then

 

Pulpit

 

I have no problem with peeps spending boatloads of money on these boats. What I was posting is that your statement about being able to run a PAC52 program for roughly the same as a Farr $0 program is beyond laughable - you must be smoking some weird crack.

 

i don't think it has to be weird, it's crack all the same .

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To bad they just did not go with the Club Swan 50's they will have resale value, have to think that the cost of the boat is miniscule to the cost of a three year sailing program.

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To bad they just did not go with the Club Swan 50's they will have resale value, have to think that the cost of the boat is miniscule to the cost of a three year sailing program.

?!

giphy.gif

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OK, re-watched the video, here are the highlights:

 

Lighter with more structure

Taller Mast

Hydraulic headstay, mast butt, etc. adjustment with a rotary pump system

 

From a Sailing World article Rio is from Platoon's mold, Invisible Hand and BadPack are from Provezza's mold, Fox is from Sled's mold.

 

From the Pac52 website the accommodations for offshore racing (berths, galley, head) are removable for inshore buoy racing.

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To bad they just did not go with the Club Swan 50's they will have resale value, have to think that the cost of the boat is miniscule to the cost of a three year sailing program.

 

?!

giphy.gif

Exactly my thought... they should just buy J-24's and race those instead.

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Yeah, great idea. Let's have a super expensive 52 foot boat that half the fleet can't start  calm water day races because of keel problems.  Remember when ocean racers actually sailed across oceans on their own bottoms to race locations?  Who wants to do a real ocean race (the Fastnet or Sydney-Hobart) on a boat that can't sail around San Diego without falling apart?

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Ironically the two boats that didn't sail were the two registered for TransPac, starting in 2 months.  Seems the boats really want to be canters. 

In fairness to the above post though, obviously they will fix the issue, so that the boat can sail outside SD Bay and only one boat has had issues and that boats only been in the water a few days.  Maybe somebody forgotten to tighten the keel bolts?  Hardly a reason to criticize the class.  If we abandoned every class that has had a failure we wouldn't have any boats to race. 

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Spend that much money and you would think they would be pretty will put together. If the issue is as simple as not tightening the keelbolts, someone needs to be fired!  

A 50% fail rate is a little beyond "...class that has had a failure..."

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So what's the point of equalizing development class boats and racing on scratch?  All the owners talking up how even the boats are, so what's the value proposition for spending a squizzilion on a boat so that it's as fast as all the others?  

May as well go one design and save $$$$  

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26 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

So what's the point of equalizing development class boats and racing on scratch?  All the owners talking up how even the boats are, so what's the value proposition for spending a squizzilion on a boat so that it's as fast as all the others?  

May as well go one design and save $$$$  

+100

 

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2 hours ago, sailronin said:

Spend that much money and you would think they would be pretty will put together. If the issue is as simple as not tightening the keelbolts, someone needs to be fired!  

A 50% fail rate is a little beyond "...class that has had a failure..."

Keep to the facts. Only one boat had an issue. The other was a sistership and chose not to sail until they investigated if they had a similar issue. So...  One issue in the first days of sailing. Hardly devastating. 

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5 hours ago, Roleur said:

Ironically the two boats that didn't sail were the two registered for TransPac, starting in 2 months.  Seems the boats really want to be canters. 

In fairness to the above post though, obviously they will fix the issue, so that the boat can sail outside SD Bay and only one boat has had issues and that boats only been in the water a few days.  Maybe somebody forgotten to tighten the keel bolts?  Hardly a reason to criticize the class.  If we abandoned every class that has had a failure we wouldn't have any boats to race. 

For example, we would never have raced the Melges 32 which had to  go back to the drawing board to solve their initial keel problems...but once solved....turned into a reasonably successful class.

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6 hours ago, sailronin said:

Yeah, great idea. Let's have a super expensive 52 foot boat that half the fleet can't start  calm water day races because of keel problems.  Remember when ocean racers actually sailed across oceans on their own bottoms to race locations?  Who wants to do a real ocean race (the Fastnet or Sydney-Hobart) on a boat that can't sail around San Diego without falling apart?

Yeah I'd be pissed off. Not good enough. There was also mention of one boat being 100KG's lighter than the others? I like the efforts they made to work around the issues as a group but not a perfect start for the class. Everything is fixable but keel problems in today’s age is inexcusable IMO. Wish the class the best. 

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4 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

So what's the point of equalizing development class boats and racing on scratch?  All the owners talking up how even the boats are, so what's the value proposition for spending a squizzilion on a boat so that it's as fast as all the others?  

May as well go one design and save $$$$  

But saving money isn't the primary motivator.  Building a bad ass boat is.  Anybody with the coin can build a fast boat.  But a fast biat that fits XYZ parameters is a but tougher.  Best of all worlds IMO. Plus, within the box and ORC speed limit there is room to design a boat more suited to offshore than inshore, heavy air vs light.  Not to metion it keeps boat builders and designers in business.  There are more than 60 TP52's in existence.  Sounds to me like its a popular concept.

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2 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

But saving money isn't the primary motivator.  Building a bad ass boat is.  Anybody with the coin can build a fast boat.  But a fast biat that fits XYZ parameters is a but tougher.  Best of all worlds IMO. Plus, within the box and ORC speed limit there is room to design a boat more suited to offshore than inshore, heavy air vs light.  Not to metion it keeps boat builders and designers in business.  There are more than 60 TP52's in existence.  Sounds to me like its a popular concept.

Well if building a badass boat was such a motivator, why did Rio install 125kg worth of corrector weights to equalise with the other boats, and why are the owners so loud and proud about how even the boats are?  I'm calling BS on that.

The sort of arms race you're referring to doesn't seem to be happening in this class.

But I'll grant you that if a primary objective is to keep designers and boat builders in work then perhaps it's useful on that basis but don't then pretend it's about building badass boats.  Boat builders build one-designs too you know, and as to creating work for designers, aren't the boats all built from existing moulds...?  Not much designer work in the class other than optimising an existing package around a slightly different set of rules and weather parameters.  And, none of the designers are 'merican AFAIK...

I'm calling BS on that point too.

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13 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

Well if building a badass boat was such a motivator, why did Rio install 125kg worth of corrector weights to equalise with the other boats, and why are the owners so loud and proud about how even the boats are?  I'm calling BS on that.

The sort of arms race you're referring to doesn't seem to be happening in this class.

But I'll grant you that if a primary objective is to keep designers and boat builders in work then perhaps it's useful on that basis but don't then pretend it's about building badass boats.  Boat builders build one-designs too you know, and as to creating work for designers, aren't the boats all built from existing moulds...?  Not much designer work in the class other than optimising an existing package around a slightly different set of rules and weather parameters.  And, none of the designers are 'merican AFAIK...

I'm calling BS on that point too.

A goal of the class is parity.  The weight was added to Rio not our of grace but because she rated too fast and didn't measure in.  

There are only 4 boats so far.  Anyone can build a boat from any designer.  Just so happens 3 of the first four come from one design office. 

 

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42 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

There are only 4 boats so far.  Anyone can build a boat from any designer.  Just so happens 3 of the first four come from one design office. 

 

5 apparently. 

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5 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

A goal of the class is parity.  The weight was added to Rio not our of grace but because she rated too fast and didn't measure in.  

There are only 4 boats so far.  Anyone can build a boat from any designer.  Just so happens 3 of the first four come from one design office. 

 

So given that why on earth don't they simply pick one partiicular design and build all the boats from that?  Would cost a heap less, would create more economic activity in the industry as lower $ entry barriers would encourage more prospective owners to invest and build boats, would promote even tighter racing an dfun for all and the boats would be equally able to compete in long distance racing?

It's nuts.  Makes no sense at all.  What's the point of having parity as a goal in a development class?

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4 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

So given that why on earth don't they simply pick one partiicular design and build all the boats from that?  Would cost a heap less, would create more economic activity in the industry as lower $ entry barriers would encourage more prospective owners to invest and build boats, would promote even tighter racing an dfun for all and the boats would be equally able to compete in long distance racing?

It's nuts.  Makes no sense at all.  What's the point of having parity as a goal in a development class?

Who the fuck knows?  And until you and I have a couple million to slap down it's all pretty moot, isn't it?  In the meantime i'm going to eagerly watch and cheer on my mates who are making living in part because of these boats.  Why?  Because boats kick ass, that's why.

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About time Beau Geste played with the big boys. With BG gone maybe the TP52's in Aus might come out to play.

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48 minutes ago, Rawhide said:

About time Beau Geste played with the big boys. With BG gone maybe the TP52's in Aus might come out to play.

Just as likely to be another Beau Gests, he hasn't built a new one for a year or two now...  :D

would be nice to se the local 52s come and play as a class

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1 hour ago, Rawhide said:

About time Beau Geste played with the big boys. With BG gone maybe the TP52's in Aus might come out to play.

Gav and his boys mangled more than a few egos with the various BG TP52 iterations. Seems many of the local rock stars  weren't actually that good after all.                                  Ah well, at least they all got their jackets and t-shirts ( and socks, belts, hats, shorts etc)

 

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Does any Aussie TP have a scoreboard in their favour over BG? 

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