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**ONTOIT**

Why I prefer the old Americas Cup Regattas

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A few weeks ago I was rather bored and decided to watch some old footage of the Americas Cup. It was then I realised why I loved the old regattas. My love affair started with the 1983 regatta after watching a mini series about Australia winning the cup.

It moved to the 1987 event when NZ entered it for the first time.

I guess for those not from New Zealand it would be hard to understand what this regatta did for our country, but it really lit the flame for our obsession which still burns today. I still remember sitting in bed at my cousins place listening to PJ Montgomery on the radio commentating races at night (NZ time).

The DOG race was a shocker, and the 1992 regatta rather frustrating for a NZ supporter due to the constant protests and the fact we could have won the cup if we didn't get so rattled in the final.

1995 was obviously a watershed regatta and there are many you tube videos showing the reactions of our supporters back here in NZ, for a small country like NZ to do what so many countries have never been able to achieve was amazing.

2000 and 2003 were memorable for different reasons, 2003 was fascinating as I'd just moved to Auckland and got to view these awesome boats up close as well as some of the huge super boats down at the viaduct.

2007 was probably one of the best regattas and the final between Alinghi and Team NZ an epic.....you tube the last race for utter drama!

Watching what unfolded in SF in 2013 was like watching a car accident in slow motion!

 

But the reason I wanted to post is to get your feedback on if this new flash version of Americas Cup is what the fans actually want?! Yes the boats are amazing to watch, etc etc, but did we ever get the drama in AC34...really....?

When I re-watched that regatta I didn't get the feeling I was watching amazing tactics at play, wind shifts making a huge difference, all I got was racing that was over in 45 mins with no real nail biting finishes. The boats were what the races were all about. Something about the tactics and patience of mono hulls racing each other to the first mark really excited me. The starts, the dial ups, the spinnakers going up and down and causing issues for teams trying to haul them in. Any way, thats my rather long winded post....I hope this regatta proves me wrong, but somehow I doubt it...it will be more like F1 of this generation and nothing close to the glory days of the 70's, 80's and early 90's!!

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A few weeks ago I was rather bored and decided to watch some old footage of the Americas Cup. It was then I realised why I loved the old regattas. My love affair started with the 1983 regatta after watching a mini series about Australia winning the cup.

It moved to the 1987 event when NZ entered it for the first time.

I guess for those not from New Zealand it would be hard to understand what this regatta did for our country, but it really lit the flame for our obsession which still burns today. I still remember sitting in bed at my cousins place listening to PJ Montgomery on the radio commentating races at night (NZ time).

The DOG race was a shocker, and the 1992 regatta rather frustrating for a NZ supporter due to the constant protests and the fact we could have won the cup if we didn't get so rattled in the final.

1995 was obviously a watershed regatta and there are many you tube videos showing the reactions of our supporters back here in NZ, for a small country like NZ to do what so many countries have never been able to achieve was amazing.

2000 and 2003 were memorable for different reasons, 2003 was fascinating as I'd just moved to Auckland and got to view these awesome boats up close as well as some of the huge super boats down at the viaduct.

2007 was probably one of the best regattas and the final between Alinghi and Team NZ an epic.....you tube the last race for utter drama!

Watching what unfolded in SF in 2013 was like watching a car accident in slow motion!

 

But the reason I wanted to post is to get your feedback on if this new flash version of Americas Cup is what the fans actually want?! Yes the boats are amazing to watch, etc etc, but did we ever get the drama in AC34...really....?

When I re-watched that regatta I didn't get the feeling I was watching amazing tactics at play, wind shifts making a huge difference, all I got was racing that was over in 45 mins with no real nail biting finishes. The boats were what the races were all about. Something about the tactics and patience of mono hulls racing each other to the first mark really excited me. The starts, the dial ups, the spinnakers going up and down and causing issues for teams trying to haul them in. Any way, thats my rather long winded post....I hope this regatta proves me wrong, but somehow I doubt it...it will be more like F1 of this generation and nothing close to the glory days of the 70's, 80's and early 90's!!

 

Since 1851 the boats have always been what the racing is about.

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I watched the last edition of the Cup just like I watch a F1 race or a horse race...

 

Won't spend a penny on this one, I can tell you that.

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I too love the old AC

 

Big loads... big boats... big crews... great match racing and it all a game of inches...

 

Whilst I love the foiling and the adrenaline of this new style AC, to me it is not what the Americas Cup is all about.

 

Just my opinion

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A few weeks ago I was rather bored and decided to watch some old footage of the Americas Cup. It was then I realised why I loved the old regattas. My love affair started with the 1983 regatta after watching a mini series about Australia winning the cup.

It moved to the 1987 event when NZ entered it for the first time.

I guess for those not from New Zealand it would be hard to understand what this regatta did for our country, but it really lit the flame for our obsession which still burns today. I still remember sitting in bed at my cousins place listening to PJ Montgomery on the radio commentating races at night (NZ time).

The DOG race was a shocker, and the 1992 regatta rather frustrating for a NZ supporter due to the constant protests and the fact we could have won the cup if we didn't get so rattled in the final.

1995 was obviously a watershed regatta and there are many you tube videos showing the reactions of our supporters back here in NZ, for a small country like NZ to do what so many countries have never been able to achieve was amazing.

2000 and 2003 were memorable for different reasons, 2003 was fascinating as I'd just moved to Auckland and got to view these awesome boats up close as well as some of the huge super boats down at the viaduct.

2007 was probably one of the best regattas and the final between Alinghi and Team NZ an epic.....you tube the last race for utter drama!

Watching what unfolded in SF in 2013 was like watching a car accident in slow motion!

 

But the reason I wanted to post is to get your feedback on if this new flash version of Americas Cup is what the fans actually want?! Yes the boats are amazing to watch, etc etc, but did we ever get the drama in AC34...really....?

When I re-watched that regatta I didn't get the feeling I was watching amazing tactics at play, wind shifts making a huge difference, all I got was racing that was over in 45 mins with no real nail biting finishes. The boats were what the races were all about. Something about the tactics and patience of mono hulls racing each other to the first mark really excited me. The starts, the dial ups, the spinnakers going up and down and causing issues for teams trying to haul them in. Any way, thats my rather long winded post....I hope this regatta proves me wrong, but somehow I doubt it...it will be more like F1 of this generation and nothing close to the glory days of the 70's, 80's and early 90's!!

I still have Americas Cup 95 and 2000, and 2007. still watch them often. In fact, I enjoy watching those more than I do the new AC. Don't get me wrong, Ill be watching this Cup in a couple of months time, but nothing beats 95 and 2000. I don't know what it is, I think its maybe the balance between technology and skill was just right. Even though the boats were big and heavy, the races were relatively easy to keep up with and understand. It was easy to see who was ahead, and what options they and the boat behind had to try and catch them. There was a clear difference between upwind and downwind sailing and the races were extremely tactical complete with tacking duals, lee-bow tacks, Gybing duals and blown out spinnakers/ gennakers. The Americas Cup doesn't need to be some extreme thrill ride to be exciting. Some of the races in 95 and 2000 were as exciting as it gets. Tag Heuer and Nippon, Tag and One Australia, One Australia and Team NZ in 95 had some classic battles! Prada and America 1 and Oracle and Alinghi in 2000 had some ding dong battles as well. Team NZ and Alinghi in 2007. Those were the glory days of the AC IMO.

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To the OP .

 

Your late to the party but your viewpoint has been expressed in a variety of ways and many times .

 

If you go back thru various threads you will see your thoughts expressed as well as many others along similar lines .

 

You may be in a minority with your views on this forum but go where anyone actully sails and the odds will change considerably .

 

The AC ain't what it used to be :(

 

Welcome !

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AC34 was extremely dramatic. And not just the tension of the comeback - the prestarts and the race for the first mark were plenty of fun. (Less fun for Kiwis than others, but still). Plenty of passes, plenty of close crosses and traded punches.

 

I don't think there's any reason we couldn't get more drama this time around. Everyone hated LVC34 and the AWCS, but the funny thing is that they were bad for completely opposite reasons. LVC34 sucked because the boats were so mismatched, there was no real competition. It was too much about the boats. The AWCS sucked because it was too little about the boats - they were all one design! - and some of the venues were such that it seemed to come down to luck with the wind more than anything (looking at you, NYC).

 

There's still room for drama and excitement with multihulls, though, they just need to find the right balance of the two, and there's no reason they couldn't do that with the almost-one-design they've got set up now. It's still about how you sail the boats, it's just that means something else now - it's about keeping on your foils, rather than how well you get your spinnaker up and down. It's still about picking wind and strategy and prestarts and finding the best course.

 

I miss the big kites and the dirty air and the traditional match racing, too, but I don't think racing between these multihulls is necessarily going to be bad. There's no reason they couldn't find the right balance between it being about the boats and being about the sailing to give us an exciting regatta.

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AC 72 was where it was at. Why in the hell they decided to abandon that class was beyond me. Well I know why they did it, to save money but this cycle doesnt have near the excitement of the last.

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Yep, the old ways are the best ways. Bring back wooden masts and cotton sails, long races, out of sight of anybody.

 

You guys are living in the past. Match racing as you describe it is only fairly recent in AC history.

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I have stated my support for the classes of old Many times in SAAC. The foiling cats will pass too at some stage. We may end up watching all manner of wonderful classes over the next 40 years.

 

The real question here is what has tainted the foiling beasties we see today. Is it the class or the defender and their behavior?

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I don't believe the Americas Cup has always been JUST about the boat...team work, tactics, and a bit of luck have always played a part...but these days it feels like follow the leader around the course...time will tell with AC35, but it has that feeling about it already!! Don't get me wrong either...I'll still be watching, hoping ETNZ can do the job and turn it back into what I believe can be an amazing event with more than six teams competing (and I use the term 'six teams' liberally!!)

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The boats in the AC were always a test bed for new materials and hardware, etc. With the J's and 12's it was the design game of getting the most out of the box rule, with some creativity at times and a breakthrough on occasion. But the boats were pretty much relative to what was being sailed at the time by the sailing public. The courses were similar to the typical regatta's of the day, same starting system, etc.

 

No, we do not want to go back to wooden masts, etc. but at least have something most can relate to and supply a little drama along the way. Nothing was more anticipated than the first beat of an AC match.

 

This AC, who will care? We'll have a pretty good idea way before the first race, maybe the NZ pedal system being the only one unknown factor that could be a game changer. The rest? We've pretty much seen it all and the one-design aspect removes a large part of the potential excitement.

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The whole Americas Cup has been the fact that it used to be a no holds bared contest between a couple or more giant egos with wallets to match - and just happened to be in boats. People were and always are the real interest, unlike today where we have no wit or charm in the participants and it's all corporate speak for those with their noses in the trough.

 

RC and co have never realised this, they have the egos but no wallets so it degenerates into the bland acceptance of corporate money and all that entails on the 'PR' side.

 

FFS, where are the Dickos, Cudmores, Blackallers and Connors of today? They brought life to cup and the dinosaur boats at least looked like something was happening. and 20 mn races?

 

Sorry, but AC it ain't...

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Also look at the gear they wear now compared to 1995, Oracle look like they are SAS or Navy Seals....I do wonder weather RC and co reaaallly think they have made the event better, especially when only 6 teams are competing....or is his head to far up LE's arse to see what he's made the event into??

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Also look at the gear they wear now compared to 1995, Oracle look like they are SAS or Navy Seals....I do wonder weather RC and co reaaallly think they have made the event better, especially when only 6 teams are competing....or is his head to far up LE's arse to see what he's made the event into??

The AC only has ever had two teams competing, the defender and the challenger. The challenger series is only very recent in AC history

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The AC 33 2010 DoG Match had exactly two teams and AC34 in 2013 was basically a two team affair too, considering just how far behind AR and LR were.

 

'Only' 6 teams this time but (despite what GD said this week) AC 35 ~could~ be the most competitive series since 2007.

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The AC 33 2010 DoG Match had exactly two teams and AC34 in 2013 was basically a two team affair too, considering just how far behind AR and LR were.

 

'Only' 6 teams this time but (despite what GD said this week) AC 35 ~could~ be the most competitive series since 2007.

The obviously faster than most of the other Bermuda's boats ORACLE versus the equally quick ETNZ boat, exactly like last time.

I'd say this is what most of the punters (well those that understand how the AC works at least) are picking will happen, it's got to be the most likely scenario.

Even if ETNZ aren't quick one of the other boats will prove to be significantly quicker than the other challengers, this is just the reality of having a brand new class, too many diferent corners to work to for them all to have the same performance, some of them have to have got it right and some of them have to have got it wrong.

Give it a couple more rounds of Russell vision without any changes to the class rule and the conversation might be different.

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Yes, one of those 5 Challengers likely will be standout-faster by the end of the Challenger Series. Given the odds, that boat will have a very good shot at the only 1 Defender boat.

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Yes, one of those 5 Challengers likely will be standout-faster by the end of the Challenger Series. Given the odds, that boat will have a very good shot at the only 1 Defender boat.

 

Even though we may know the eventual outcome of the match before the first gun, thanks to the thoroughly stupid participation of the Defender in the Challenger eliminations!

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Unless things go dramatically wrong for OR somehow, we won't have a clue about their performance relative to the others until the Cup match. Even then, if they're clearly ahead, they'll likely leave some toys in the cupboard until AC36.

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Unless one team finds a late breakthrough they can develop by match time we will know who is what before the first start. NZ may have it with the cycle grinders but until we can see them perform in anger we will not know. Come mid to late May we will know if it is a homerun.

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^ and there lies my biggest issue...will there really be any suspense in this when Oracle race in the challengers series?

Is there any benefit for the challenger just throwing those races??

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Oracle races in the Qualifiers, not the remainder of the challengers series. Nobody is going to throw races in the Qualifiers because the winner takes a points advantage into the Match, assuming they get that far. The protocol is quite cleverly constructed so that the defender is strongly discouraged from using the Qualifiers to influence the challenger series. That doesn't mean I am happy for the defender to be in the Qualifiers.

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Yes, one of those 5 Challengers likely will be standout-faster by the end of the Challenger Series. Given the odds, that boat will have a very good shot at the only 1 Defender boat.

 

Why is it that ETNZ being in Auckland and not Bermuda is "Tough luck, that was their choice" but somehow OTUSA having one boat despite the skewed rules is a sob story?

 

Not to mention that in the one case the rules have changed repeatedly since the decision was made, in the other nothing has changed since the day Iain 'Many-Hats' Murray signed them off!

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Was simply pointing out the simple math that with the best of among 5 Challengers taking on the best of 1 Defender, the odds favor the Challengers side of the equation. Especially, again, if one becomes 'standout-faster by the end of the Challenger Series' through continuous improvement, which is exactly what ETNZ managed to do in SF. Except that there are other viable teams this time too, meaning the standout may be relatively even stronger.

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Was simply pointing out the simple math that with the best of among 5 Challengers taking on the best of 1 Defender, the odds favor the Challengers side of the equation. Especially, again, if one becomes 'standout-faster by the end of the Challenger Series' through continuous improvement, which is exactly what ETNZ managed to do in SF. Except that there are other viable teams this time too, meaning the standout may be relatively even stronger.

 

Unless there is a miracle we are going to know who has what during the qualifiers when OR is racing with the challengers. OR have the capacity and $ to work on things they see when they are not racing that the others will not have the ability to do.

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Was simply pointing out the simple math that with the best of among 5 Challengers taking on the best of 1 Defender, the odds favor the Challengers side of the equation. Especially, again, if one becomes 'standout-faster by the end of the Challenger Series' through continuous improvement, which is exactly what ETNZ managed to do in SF. Except that there are other viable teams this time too, meaning the standout may be relatively even stronger.

Unless there is a miracle we are going to know who has what during the qualifiers when OR is racing with the challengers. OR have the capacity and $ to work on things they see when they are not racing that the others will not have the ability to do.

What happened last time was that everyone, but most especially ETNZ, improved rapidly during the CSS. And then again after the CSS and before the Cup.

 

While we will get a gauge on OR vs the Challs during the earlier Qualifier series, there will be significant gains made after its conclusion, during the Semi's, and during the Finals, and after the Finals but before the Cup, while OR is shut out of competing.

 

There will be plenty of unknowns, anticipation and speculation for the start of Race 1.

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Was simply pointing out the simple math that with the best of among 5 Challengers taking on the best of 1 Defender, the odds favor the Challengers side of the equation. Especially, again, if one becomes 'standout-faster by the end of the Challenger Series' through continuous improvement, which is exactly what ETNZ managed to do in SF. Except that there are other viable teams this time too, meaning the standout may be relatively even stronger.

Unless there is a miracle we are going to know who has what during the qualifiers when OR is racing with the challengers. OR have the capacity and $ to work on things they see when they are not racing that the others will not have the ability to do.

What happened last time was that everyone, but most especially ETNZ, improved rapidly during the CSS. And then again after the CSS and before the Cup.

 

While we will get a gauge on OR vs the Challs during the earlier Qualifier series, there will be significant gains made after its conclusion, during the Semi's, and during the Finals, and after the Finals but before the Cup, while OR is shut out of competing.

 

There will be plenty of unknowns, anticipation and speculation for the start of Race 1.

 

They might be shut from competing, but they will know exactly where they stand and they certainly won't be shut out from developing AND they won't be obligated to be racing so even developments that take significant build time are open to consideration.

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Yes, OR will have a good idea of where they stood back during the Qualifiers. And will hope they don't again get caught as flat-footed as what happened in AC34, will hope they can improve as fast as what the best Challenger does.

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I see and hear this discussion over and over, and mostly wonder why. If you prefer one or the other, perfectly fine - why evangelize? Why do we have to choose, or debate the merits and pick one over the other?

 

I truly like both, the new AC boats and the tech, speed and physicality. But I'd never miss a chance to watch J/Class boats racing either. I also watch F1 racing, but if a race with 60's Ferraris, Porsches, etc. comes on, I'd enjoy that too. YMMV

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I see and hear this discussion over and over, and mostly wonder why. If you prefer one or the other, perfectly fine - why evangelize? Why do we have to choose, or debate the merits and pick one over the other?

 

I truly like both, the new AC boats and the tech, speed and physicality. But I'd never miss a chance to watch J/Class boats racing either. I also watch F1 racing, but if a race with 60's Ferraris, Porsches, etc. comes on, I'd enjoy that too. YMMV

Agreed

 

fun enough writeup on the FP today

--

better than ever?

 

I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago refuting another writers assertion that sailing was somehow broken. I claimed the opposite citing flying boats and unbelievable record setting circumnavigations by some extraordinary French sailors, and I believe that my assessment was the right one. While I totally dislike the notion of doubling down because thats what crooked politicians do when caught out I feel that I need to double down on this one. I think that sailing is far from broken. Instead I think that sailing has never been stronger and more vibrant at least in the almost six decades that I have been messing around in boats.

To make my point I am going to cite three very different events, two that will take place this year and one next year. First there is the Americas Cup set to kick off in May in Bermuda. Yes I know that there are plenty who mourn the old days of 12-meters and dislike the modern AC 45s, but give me a break. I can remember when sailing was first televised. I think it was the Americas Cup in Fremantle back in the 80s. You could hear the onboard commentary and I remember Tom Whidden, the tactician, talking Dennis Conner, the skipper, through a tack. They had come about and were building speed on the new tack. Whidden was saying, speed coming up Dennis. Four knots, five six and a half.

Give me a break. Seven knots top boat speed. All that lead under the boat. Its no wonder people thought that sailing was the most boring sport ever. Take a look at this upcoming regatta. The closing speed of two AC 45s on opposite tacks can be as much as 70 miles an hour. Now thats what I call exciting. Two flying boats coming at each other racing full tilt on a razors edge between winning and catastrophe. Thats what people want to see. The chance of a pile up but if not, at least some superb, very exciting sailing.

As part of the same event there will be two additional, spectacular races. The Americas Cup J Class Regatta and the Americas Cup Superyacht Regatta. They estimate that eight Js will be there. Thats extraordinary. Most of those boats were once wrecks relegated to some backwater somewhere. Now they will be racing against each other in the turquoise waters of Bermuda. And then there is the Superyacht Regatta. While I am not really a fan of these behemoths there is something to be said for a whole lot of them lumbering around the same course. Nope, sorry, you can complain all you want about the Americas Cup but I am still a fan.

(etc)

http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/04/03/better-than-ever/

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Tell me that this is not entertaining match race sailing:

 

 

 

Convince me that match racing this tight and exciting will happen in Bermuda.

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^ "Now thats what I call exciting. Two flying boats coming at each other racing full tilt on a razors edge between winning and catastrophe. Thats what people want to see. The chance of a pile up but if not, at least some superb, very exciting sailing."

 

​Really, that's what people want to see, a pile up!?? WOW, I thought people wanted to see hard close racing, where the boats don't just look cool and might collide! Where the tactician actually has to make decisions based on wind, tacking ability etc, where the race is a match race and not a straight out drag race that needs to finish under 40 minutes due to attention spans of 5 year olds!

 

Actually, how many boats competed in 1987, 1992, 1995, 2000, 2003 again....nah, how boring, nobody was interested in that!!

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^

I think there are definitely some "ghouls" out there that want to see a pile up, but IMO they are more likely to be watching NASCAR or similar, rather than boat racing and so the AC has partially alienated a significant portion of its fanbase whilst probably not attracting too many newbies to the fray.

 

With the cats, everything is over too quickly. Not just in terms of the race duration, but also the individual manoeuvres.

Want to throw a tactical gybe or tack at the competitor? Good luck with that I would suggest as the most beneficial move is likely to be to ignore them and keep on sailing your current course.

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^ "Now thats what I call exciting. Two flying boats coming at each other racing full tilt on a razors edge between winning and catastrophe. Thats what people want to see. The chance of a pile up but if not, at least some superb, very exciting sailing."

 

​Really, that's what people want to see, a pile up!?? WOW, I thought people wanted to see hard close racing, where the boats don't just look cool and might collide! Where the tactician actually has to make decisions based on wind, tacking ability etc, where the race is a match race and not a straight out drag race that needs to finish under 40 minutes due to attention spans of 5 year olds!

 

Actually, how many boats competed in 1987, 1992, 1995, 2000, 2003 again....nah, how boring, nobody was interested in that!!

PM spinbot for data on how sailing on leadmines is for shit...and the Joe Sixpack demographic needs high speeds, 15 minute races to maximize tv revenue, and high speed crashes for that f1 feel...but if the crashes are serious he will be the first to start the handwringing...just like he will be the first to point the finger if lazza/Russ ever try to do that shit that Ernie did...

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I see and hear this discussion over and over, and mostly wonder why. If you prefer one or the other, perfectly fine - why evangelize? Why do we have to choose, or debate the merits and pick one over the other?

 

I truly like both, the new AC boats and the tech, speed and physicality. But I'd never miss a chance to watch J/Class boats racing either. I also watch F1 racing, but if a race with 60's Ferraris, Porsches, etc. comes on, I'd enjoy that too. YMMV

Agreed

 

fun enough writeup on the FP today

--

better than ever?

 

I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago refuting another writers assertion that sailing was somehow broken. I claimed the opposite citing flying boats and unbelievable record setting circumnavigations by some extraordinary French sailors, and I believe that my assessment was the right one. While I totally dislike the notion of doubling down because thats what crooked politicians do when caught out I feel that I need to double down on this one. I think that sailing is far from broken. Instead I think that sailing has never been stronger and more vibrant at least in the almost six decades that I have been messing around in boats.

To make my point I am going to cite three very different events, two that will take place this year and one next year. First there is the Americas Cup set to kick off in May in Bermuda. Yes I know that there are plenty who mourn the old days of 12-meters and dislike the modern AC 45s, but give me a break. I can remember when sailing was first televised. I think it was the Americas Cup in Fremantle back in the 80s. You could hear the onboard commentary and I remember Tom Whidden, the tactician, talking Dennis Conner, the skipper, through a tack. They had come about and were building speed on the new tack. Whidden was saying, speed coming up Dennis. Four knots, five six and a half.

Give me a break. Seven knots top boat speed. All that lead under the boat. Its no wonder people thought that sailing was the most boring sport ever. Take a look at this upcoming regatta. The closing speed of two AC 45s on opposite tacks can be as much as 70 miles an hour. Now thats what I call exciting. Two flying boats coming at each other racing full tilt on a razors edge between winning and catastrophe. Thats what people want to see. The chance of a pile up but if not, at least some superb, very exciting sailing.

As part of the same event there will be two additional, spectacular races. The Americas Cup J Class Regatta and the Americas Cup Superyacht Regatta. They estimate that eight Js will be there. Thats extraordinary. Most of those boats were once wrecks relegated to some backwater somewhere. Now they will be racing against each other in the turquoise waters of Bermuda. And then there is the Superyacht Regatta. While I am not really a fan of these behemoths there is something to be said for a whole lot of them lumbering around the same course. Nope, sorry, you can complain all you want about the Americas Cup but I am still a fan.

(etc)

http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/04/03/better-than-ever/

 

 

Glad you gave a nod, albeit a passing nod, to Hancock's shout-out on the state of sailing today, including the America's Cup. Muggsy is an informed and entertaining commenter on sailing and in particular professional sailing, based on boatloads of hard-won experience.

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I see and hear this discussion over and over, and mostly wonder why. If you prefer one or the other, perfectly fine - why evangelize? Why do we have to choose, or debate the merits and pick one over the other?

I truly like both, the new AC boats and the tech, speed and physicality. But I'd never miss a chance to watch J/Class boats racing either. I also watch F1 racing, but if a race with 60's Ferraris, Porsches, etc. comes on, I'd enjoy that too. YMMV

 

Agreed

fun enough writeup on the FP today

--

better than ever?

I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago refuting another writers assertion that sailing was somehow broken. I claimed the opposite citing flying boats and unbelievable record setting circumnavigations by some extraordinary French sailors, and I believe that my assessment was the right one. While I totally dislike the notion of doubling down because thats what crooked politicians do when caught out I feel that I need to double down on this one. I think that sailing is far from broken. Instead I think that sailing has never been stronger and more vibrant at least in the almost six decades that I have been messing around in boats.

To make my point I am going to cite three very different events, two that will take place this year and one next year. First there is the Americas Cup set to kick off in May in Bermuda. Yes I know that there are plenty who mourn the old days of 12-meters and dislike the modern AC 45s, but give me a break. I can remember when sailing was first televised. I think it was the Americas Cup in Fremantle back in the 80s. You could hear the onboard commentary and I remember Tom Whidden, the tactician, talking Dennis Conner, the skipper, through a tack. They had come about and were building speed on the new tack. Whidden was saying, speed coming up Dennis. Four knots, five six and a half.

Give me a break. Seven knots top boat speed. All that lead under the boat. Its no wonder people thought that sailing was the most boring sport ever. Take a look at this upcoming regatta. The closing speed of two AC 45s on opposite tacks can be as much as 70 miles an hour. Now thats what I call exciting. Two flying boats coming at each other racing full tilt on a razors edge between winning and catastrophe. Thats what people want to see. The chance of a pile up but if not, at least some superb, very exciting sailing.

As part of the same event there will be two additional, spectacular races. The Americas Cup J Class Regatta and the Americas Cup Superyacht Regatta. They estimate that eight Js will be there. Thats extraordinary. Most of those boats were once wrecks relegated to some backwater somewhere. Now they will be racing against each other in the turquoise waters of Bermuda. And then there is the Superyacht Regatta. While I am not really a fan of these behemoths there is something to be said for a whole lot of them lumbering around the same course. Nope, sorry, you can complain all you want about the Americas Cup but I am still a fan.

(etc)http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/04/03/better-than-ever/

Glad you gave a nod, albeit a passing nod, to Hancock's shout-out on the state of sailing today, including the America's Cup. Muggsy is an informed and entertaining commenter on sailing and in particular professional sailing, based on boatloads of hard-won experience.

The premis of his story is that sailing isn't broke because the AC is a great regatta, he thinks crashes could be good that and the speed makes it exciting...not sure how many sailors would agree

The J boat regatta will be good and most here would agree, super boats not so much...

I think they would agree that they are unlikely to be sailing in these events, but the races in which we are racing have much lower boat counts, fewer new sailors, very few kids joining in and that sailing is broke and won't be fixed by a few pros sailing boats unrelated to what we sail...

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I see and hear this discussion over and over, and mostly wonder why. If you prefer one or the other, perfectly fine - why evangelize? Why do we have to choose, or debate the merits and pick one over the other?

I truly like both, the new AC boats and the tech, speed and physicality. But I'd never miss a chance to watch J/Class boats racing either. I also watch F1 racing, but if a race with 60's Ferraris, Porsches, etc. comes on, I'd enjoy that too. YMMV

Agreed

fun enough writeup on the FP today

--

better than ever?

I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago refuting another writers assertion that sailing was somehow broken. I claimed the opposite citing flying boats and unbelievable record setting circumnavigations by some extraordinary French sailors, and I believe that my assessment was the right one. While I totally dislike the notion of doubling down because thats what crooked politicians do when caught out I feel that I need to double down on this one. I think that sailing is far from broken. Instead I think that sailing has never been stronger and more vibrant at least in the almost six decades that I have been messing around in boats.

To make my point I am going to cite three very different events, two that will take place this year and one next year. First there is the Americas Cup set to kick off in May in Bermuda. Yes I know that there are plenty who mourn the old days of 12-meters and dislike the modern AC 45s, but give me a break. I can remember when sailing was first televised. I think it was the Americas Cup in Fremantle back in the 80s. You could hear the onboard commentary and I remember Tom Whidden, the tactician, talking Dennis Conner, the skipper, through a tack. They had come about and were building speed on the new tack. Whidden was saying, speed coming up Dennis. Four knots, five six and a half.

Give me a break. Seven knots top boat speed. All that lead under the boat. Its no wonder people thought that sailing was the most boring sport ever. Take a look at this upcoming regatta. The closing speed of two AC 45s on opposite tacks can be as much as 70 miles an hour. Now thats what I call exciting. Two flying boats coming at each other racing full tilt on a razors edge between winning and catastrophe. Thats what people want to see. The chance of a pile up but if not, at least some superb, very exciting sailing.

As part of the same event there will be two additional, spectacular races. The Americas Cup J Class Regatta and the Americas Cup Superyacht Regatta. They estimate that eight Js will be there. Thats extraordinary. Most of those boats were once wrecks relegated to some backwater somewhere. Now they will be racing against each other in the turquoise waters of Bermuda. And then there is the Superyacht Regatta. While I am not really a fan of these behemoths there is something to be said for a whole lot of them lumbering around the same course. Nope, sorry, you can complain all you want about the Americas Cup but I am still a fan.

(etc)http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/04/03/better-than-ever/

Glad you gave a nod, albeit a passing nod, to Hancock's shout-out on the state of sailing today, including the America's Cup. Muggsy is an informed and entertaining commenter on sailing and in particular professional sailing, based on boatloads of hard-won experience.

The premis of his story is that sailing isn't broke because the AC is a great regatta, he thinks crashes could be good that and the speed makes it exciting...not sure how many sailors would agree

The J boat regatta will be good and most here would agree, super boats not so much...

I think they would agree that they are unlikely to be sailing in these events, but the races in which we are racing have much lower boat counts, fewer new sailors, very few kids joining in and that sailing is broke and won't be fixed by a few pros sailing boats unrelated to what we sail...

 

Ro, every sport has its pinnacle or pinnacles . . . rugby, soccer, archery, you name it. Really competitive individuals in all these sports aspire to the pinnacles. Sailing is no different and guys like Burling and Tuke started in small boats at local, ordinary, sailing club and are now headed for their Everest.

 

Is sailing broken? That debate has raged for at least the last three decades and yet builders are still building new boats. Just for example, Melges has introduced a new singlehander. Lots of cause and effect to consider -- global financial upheaval, calls on available discretionary time etc. However little in the way of broad hard evidence that interest in sailing is lessening.

 

One positive example: in January the 340-boat limit for 2017 Fastnet Race entries was reached in four minutes and 24 seconds, an all-time record!

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Interesting statistic .

 

There are currently more J class boats currently racing , nine with more on the way , than there are teams in the Americas Cup .

 

The odds that a couple of these owners , if they had interest , could put a Cup challenge together I would think is quite high . Even if they went the old school route and put a syndicate together . They obviously enjoy sailing but also just as obviously have no interest in the current version of today's Americas Cup.

 

One class growing in interest and one declining .

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^Do you think it's the simplistic nature of the old boats that people enjoy? As a general fan of the Americas Cup, without a lot of boat knowledge, I found the monohulls a lot easier to understand, it seemed that each sailing team had specific job. These boats look cool, but I really have no idea how they 'work' so to speak, as in the technical aspects.

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Most common sailors could put themselves at the helm of any of the monohull AC boats. I doubt there are too many that could do the same with the foiling cats. I had a chance to drive a 12m, sure it was not rigged for racing with a full crew and racing sails, but it felt much like what I have experienced in other boats I have driven. Watching the Cong Cup I could put myself there, maybe not at their level, but I can see and feel it while watching because it is similar to experiences I have seen during the various racing I have done.

 

The AC cats, no.

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Most common sailors could put themselves at the helm of any of the monohull AC boats. I doubt there are too many that could do the same with the foiling cats. I had a chance to drive a 12m, sure it was not rigged for racing with a full crew and racing sails, but it felt much like what I have experienced in other boats I have driven. Watching the Cong Cup I could put myself there, maybe not at their level, but I can see and feel it while watching because it is similar to experiences I have seen during the various racing I have done.

 

The AC cats, no.

 

When we were sailing the Sausalito Cup series in San Francisco in the IAAC boats we often put VIP guests on the wheel. The reason that the new format has lost the previous audience is as has been stated many times there is little for the majority of current or past sailors to relate to . Four pumps and two sailors running back and forth over the tramp is not something that carries a lot of interest.

The less you know about sailboat racing the more important sheer speed becomes in order to gain interest which is what the " sustainability gang " is counting on . As has been seen in a variety of different areas , its not working. Will the new AC catch on and regain the interest it once had is something that remains to be seen . They certainly have their work cut out for them as they have a long way to go to even be level with what the Americas Cup was once was, the pinnacle of sailing .

.

post-11911-0-17824900-1491589402_thumb.jpg

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A/C is a drag race, not a tactical match. Non sailors like it because they are waiting for a crash but it's a lot like Nascar now. Go fast, turn left.

I'd rather go sailing or mow the lawn than waste time watching.

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The reason that the new format has lost the previous audience is as has been stated many times there is little for the majority of current or past sailors to relate to . Four pumps and two sailors running back and forth over the tramp is not something that carries a lot of interest.

The less you know about sailboat racing the more important sheer speed becomes in order to gain interest which is what the " sustainability gang " is counting on . As has been seen in a variety of different areas , its not working. Will the new AC catch on and regain the interest it once had is something that remains to be seen . They certainly have their work cut out for them as they have a long way to go to even be level with what the Americas Cup was once was, the pinnacle of sailing .

 

Of course sailing itself, all levels, has "a long way to go" to reach it's former "pinnacle" too, there might be some correlation there with AC interest. Most of the people who follow Formula 1 racing couldn't relate to what a Formula 1 driver does (whether they know it or not), yet Formula 1 still has millions of viewers.

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I simply don't care that my Laser is different, it is still fun to sail in a breeze as would be almost any other normal boat. Okay, perhaps my neighbor's ugly-ass MacGregor aside..

 

I like following the AC for it being at the very leading edge of what purely wind driven boats can do around a course. This foiling evolution is fascinating on several levels, it 'elevates' what extreme wind powered craft can achieve.

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The reason that the new format has lost the previous audience is as has been stated many times there is little for the majority of current or past sailors to relate to . Four pumps and two sailors running back and forth over the tramp is not something that carries a lot of interest.

The less you know about sailboat racing the more important sheer speed becomes in order to gain interest which is what the " sustainability gang " is counting on . As has been seen in a variety of different areas , its not working. Will the new AC catch on and regain the interest it once had is something that remains to be seen . They certainly have their work cut out for them as they have a long way to go to even be level with what the Americas Cup was once was, the pinnacle of sailing .

 

Of course sailing itself, all levels, has "a long way to go" to reach it's former "pinnacle" too, there might be some correlation there with AC interest. Most of the people who follow Formula 1 racing couldn't relate to what a Formula 1 driver does (whether they know it or not), yet Formula 1 still has millions of viewers.

 

And what was sailing's " former pinnacle?" Hard evidence please.

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I simply don't care that my Laser is different, it is still fun to sail in a breeze as would be almost any other normal boat. Okay, perhaps my neighbor's ugly-ass MacGregor aside..

 

I like following the AC for it being at the very leading edge of what purely wind driven boats can do around a course. This foiling evolution is fascinating on several levels, it 'elevates' what extreme wind powered craft can achieve.

 

I'm with you all the way on that, the MacGregor aside included!

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The reason that the new format has lost the previous audience is as has been stated many times there is little for the majority of current or past sailors to relate to . Four pumps and two sailors running back and forth over the tramp is not something that carries a lot of interest.

The less you know about sailboat racing the more important sheer speed becomes in order to gain interest which is what the " sustainability gang " is counting on . As has been seen in a variety of different areas , its not working. Will the new AC catch on and regain the interest it once had is something that remains to be seen . They certainly have their work cut out for them as they have a long way to go to even be level with what the Americas Cup was once was, the pinnacle of sailing .

 

Of course sailing itself, all levels, has "a long way to go" to reach it's former "pinnacle" too, there might be some correlation there with AC interest. Most of the people who follow Formula 1 racing couldn't relate to what a Formula 1 driver does (whether they know it or not), yet Formula 1 still has millions of viewers.

 

Who can relate to Formula 1 now? It's about as exciting as watching paint dry!

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These crews are having to make extreme decisions, some of them under extreme duress, it's a pretty wild thing at all levels.

 

I just find this AC style of racing to be more worth following relative to pretty much any other sailing endeavors, many of which are about 'watching the paint dry.' I have zero interest in a 'return to Glory' if that means a stuffed-shirts JAR the likes of St Barth Sponsored By Prada mono's on the Med. Give me the cutting-edge, progressively, even or because of the aeronautical tech lift we get to witness.

 

Lose the dang Lead! The sky isn't the limit - the water is.

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The reason that the new format has lost the previous audience is as has been stated many times there is little for the majority of current or past sailors to relate to . Four pumps and two sailors running back and forth over the tramp is not something that carries a lot of interest.

The less you know about sailboat racing the more important sheer speed becomes in order to gain interest which is what the " sustainability gang " is counting on . As has been seen in a variety of different areas , its not working. Will the new AC catch on and regain the interest it once had is something that remains to be seen . They certainly have their work cut out for them as they have a long way to go to even be level with what the Americas Cup was once was, the pinnacle of sailing .

 

Of course sailing itself, all levels, has "a long way to go" to reach it's former "pinnacle" too, there might be some correlation there with AC interest. Most of the people who follow Formula 1 racing couldn't relate to what a Formula 1 driver does (whether they know it or not), yet Formula 1 still has millions of viewers.

And what was sailing's " former pinnacle?" Hard evidence please.

That's an easy one .

 

With perhaps the exception of your little island walk into almost any yacht club , especially those with racing programs , and ask who follows the Americas Cup . After they give you a blank look for a few moments and then go back to their conversations you will know just how irrevelant the AC has become .

 

JAR

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I see and hear this discussion over and over, and mostly wonder why. If you prefer one or the other, perfectly fine - why evangelize? Why do we have to choose, or debate the merits and pick one over the other?

I truly like both, the new AC boats and the tech, speed and physicality. But I'd never miss a chance to watch J/Class boats racing either. I also watch F1 racing, but if a race with 60's Ferraris, Porsches, etc. comes on, I'd enjoy that too. YMMV

 

Agreed

fun enough writeup on the FP today

--

better than ever?

I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago refuting another writers assertion that sailing was somehow broken. I claimed the opposite citing flying boats and unbelievable record setting circumnavigations by some extraordinary French sailors, and I believe that my assessment was the right one. While I totally dislike the notion of doubling down because thats what crooked politicians do when caught out I feel that I need to double down on this one. I think that sailing is far from broken. Instead I think that sailing has never been stronger and more vibrant at least in the almost six decades that I have been messing around in boats.

To make my point I am going to cite three very different events, two that will take place this year and one next year. First there is the Americas Cup set to kick off in May in Bermuda. Yes I know that there are plenty who mourn the old days of 12-meters and dislike the modern AC 45s, but give me a break. I can remember when sailing was first televised. I think it was the Americas Cup in Fremantle back in the 80s. You could hear the onboard commentary and I remember Tom Whidden, the tactician, talking Dennis Conner, the skipper, through a tack. They had come about and were building speed on the new tack. Whidden was saying, speed coming up Dennis. Four knots, five six and a half.

Give me a break. Seven knots top boat speed. All that lead under the boat. Its no wonder people thought that sailing was the most boring sport ever. Take a look at this upcoming regatta. The closing speed of two AC 45s on opposite tacks can be as much as 70 miles an hour. Now thats what I call exciting. Two flying boats coming at each other racing full tilt on a razors edge between winning and catastrophe. Thats what people want to see. The chance of a pile up but if not, at least some superb, very exciting sailing.

As part of the same event there will be two additional, spectacular races. The Americas Cup J Class Regatta and the Americas Cup Superyacht Regatta. They estimate that eight Js will be there. Thats extraordinary. Most of those boats were once wrecks relegated to some backwater somewhere. Now they will be racing against each other in the turquoise waters of Bermuda. And then there is the Superyacht Regatta. While I am not really a fan of these behemoths there is something to be said for a whole lot of them lumbering around the same course. Nope, sorry, you can complain all you want about the Americas Cup but I am still a fan.

(etc)http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/04/03/better-than-ever/

Glad you gave a nod, albeit a passing nod, to Hancock's shout-out on the state of sailing today, including the America's Cup. Muggsy is an informed and entertaining commenter on sailing and in particular professional sailing, based on boatloads of hard-won experience.

The premis of his story is that sailing isn't broke because the AC is a great regatta, he thinks crashes could be good that and the speed makes it exciting...not sure how many sailors would agree

The J boat regatta will be good and most here would agree, super boats not so much...

I think they would agree that they are unlikely to be sailing in these events, but the races in which we are racing have much lower boat counts, fewer new sailors, very few kids joining in and that sailing is broke and won't be fixed by a few pros sailing boats unrelated to what we sail...

Ro, every sport has its pinnacle or pinnacles . . . rugby, soccer, archery, you name it. Really competitive individuals in all these sports aspire to the pinnacles. Sailing is no different and guys like Burling and Tuke started in small boats at local, ordinary, sailing club and are now headed for their Everest.

 

Is sailing broken? That debate has raged for at least the last three decades and yet builders are still building new boats. Just for example, Melges has introduced a new singlehander. Lots of cause and effect to consider -- global financial upheaval, calls on available discretionary time etc. However little in the way of broad hard evidence that interest in sailing is lessening.

 

One positive example: in January the 340-boat limit for 2017 Fastnet Race entries was reached in four minutes and 24 seconds, an all-time record!

.

 

I don't consider this AC format as the pinnacle of sail boat racing, it's a lazza/Russ vision of what it should be+ it keeps a bunch of pros in a regular gig.

Biurling and Tuke are gifted sailors and would excell in any AC sailing format

I would think that AK is an outlier in the sailing is broken debate, but I can tell you that it is broken in the US, boat counts are way down from ten years ago, however our local long distance race the 300 mile Chicago to Mackinac island has over 300 boats and the fastest growing section is the 2xA sail cruzer class, and I'll bet that not too many of them think that this AC vision is gonna save sailing.

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I see and hear this discussion over and over, and mostly wonder why. If you prefer one or the other, perfectly fine - why evangelize? Why do we have to choose, or debate the merits and pick one over the other?

I truly like both, the new AC boats and the tech, speed and physicality. But I'd never miss a chance to watch J/Class boats racing either. I also watch F1 racing, but if a race with 60's Ferraris, Porsches, etc. comes on, I'd enjoy that too. YMMV

Agreed

fun enough writeup on the FP today

--

better than ever?

I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago refuting another writers assertion that sailing was somehow broken. I claimed the opposite citing flying boats and unbelievable record setting circumnavigations by some extraordinary French sailors, and I believe that my assessment was the right one. While I totally dislike the notion of doubling down because thats what crooked politicians do when caught out I feel that I need to double down on this one. I think that sailing is far from broken. Instead I think that sailing has never been stronger and more vibrant at least in the almost six decades that I have been messing around in boats.

To make my point I am going to cite three very different events, two that will take place this year and one next year. First there is the Americas Cup set to kick off in May in Bermuda. Yes I know that there are plenty who mourn the old days of 12-meters and dislike the modern AC 45s, but give me a break. I can remember when sailing was first televised. I think it was the Americas Cup in Fremantle back in the 80s. You could hear the onboard commentary and I remember Tom Whidden, the tactician, talking Dennis Conner, the skipper, through a tack. They had come about and were building speed on the new tack. Whidden was saying, speed coming up Dennis. Four knots, five six and a half.

Give me a break. Seven knots top boat speed. All that lead under the boat. Its no wonder people thought that sailing was the most boring sport ever. Take a look at this upcoming regatta. The closing speed of two AC 45s on opposite tacks can be as much as 70 miles an hour. Now thats what I call exciting. Two flying boats coming at each other racing full tilt on a razors edge between winning and catastrophe. Thats what people want to see. The chance of a pile up but if not, at least some superb, very exciting sailing.

As part of the same event there will be two additional, spectacular races. The Americas Cup J Class Regatta and the Americas Cup Superyacht Regatta. They estimate that eight Js will be there. Thats extraordinary. Most of those boats were once wrecks relegated to some backwater somewhere. Now they will be racing against each other in the turquoise waters of Bermuda. And then there is the Superyacht Regatta. While I am not really a fan of these behemoths there is something to be said for a whole lot of them lumbering around the same course. Nope, sorry, you can complain all you want about the Americas Cup but I am still a fan.

(etc)http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/04/03/better-than-ever/

Glad you gave a nod, albeit a passing nod, to Hancock's shout-out on the state of sailing today, including the America's Cup. Muggsy is an informed and entertaining commenter on sailing and in particular professional sailing, based on boatloads of hard-won experience.

The premis of his story is that sailing isn't broke because the AC is a great regatta, he thinks crashes could be good that and the speed makes it exciting...not sure how many sailors would agree

The J boat regatta will be good and most here would agree, super boats not so much...

I think they would agree that they are unlikely to be sailing in these events, but the races in which we are racing have much lower boat counts, fewer new sailors, very few kids joining in and that sailing is broke and won't be fixed by a few pros sailing boats unrelated to what we sail...

Ro, every sport has its pinnacle or pinnacles . . . rugby, soccer, archery, you name it. Really competitive individuals in all these sports aspire to the pinnacles. Sailing is no different and guys like Burling and Tuke started in small boats at local, ordinary, sailing club and are now headed for their Everest.

 

Is sailing broken? That debate has raged for at least the last three decades and yet builders are still building new boats. Just for example, Melges has introduced a new singlehander. Lots of cause and effect to consider -- global financial upheaval, calls on available discretionary time etc. However little in the way of broad hard evidence that interest in sailing is lessening.

 

One positive example: in January the 340-boat limit for 2017 Fastnet Race entries was reached in four minutes and 24 seconds, an all-time record!

.

I don't consider this AC format as the pinnacle of sail boat racing, it's a lazza/Russ vision of what it should be+ it keeps a bunch of pros in a regular gig.

Biurling and Tuke are gifted sailors and would excell in any AC sailing format

I would think that AK is an outlier in the sailing is broken debate, but I can tell you that it is broken in the US, boat counts are way down from ten years ago, however our local long distance race the 300 mile Chicago to Mackinac island has over 300 boats and the fastest growing section is the 2xA sail cruzer class, and I'll bet that not too many of them think that this AC vision is gonna save sailing.

 

"however our local long distance race the 300 mile Chicago to Mackinac island has over 300 boats and the fastest growing section is the 2xA sail cruzer class,"

 

I rest my case!

 

Note that I never held out the AC as the pinnacle of sailing. One of the many to aspire to but not the be-all and end-all. I pretty much said that in

my previous post above.

 

Bottom line for generalists: Sailing is not broken. It has been morphing in various wonderful ways but it's alive and kicking.

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The reason that the new format has lost the previous audience is as has been stated many times there is little for the majority of current or past sailors to relate to . Four pumps and two sailors running back and forth over the tramp is not something that carries a lot of interest.

The less you know about sailboat racing the more important sheer speed becomes in order to gain interest which is what the " sustainability gang " is counting on . As has been seen in a variety of different areas , its not working. Will the new AC catch on and regain the interest it once had is something that remains to be seen . They certainly have their work cut out for them as they have a long way to go to even be level with what the Americas Cup was once was, the pinnacle of sailing .

Of course sailing itself, all levels, has "a long way to go" to reach it's former "pinnacle" too, there might be some correlation there with AC interest. Most of the people who follow Formula 1 racing couldn't relate to what a Formula 1 driver does (whether they know it or not), yet Formula 1 still has millions of viewers.

And what was sailing's " former pinnacle?" Hard evidence please.

That's an easy one .

 

With perhaps the exception of your little island walk into almost any yacht club , especially those with racing programs , and ask who follows the Americas Cup . After they give you a blank look for a few moments and then go back to their conversations you will know just how irrevelant the AC has become .

 

JAR

 

JAR? Pfft! You may very well think so but my appreciation of the subject is closer to Brian Hancock's, or Stings take on it, immediately prior to your post.

 

I'm not sure that YC attitudes here several months ago about this AC were any different than your global example. The multiple distractions in our daily lives plus the appalling job Coutts and his gang have done in stifling public interest are just a couple of possible causes.

 

Walk into those same yacht clubs after the Bermuda preliminaries are done and the first race of the match is scheduled. The clubs will be crowded, there will be a buzz of anticipation and I promise the TV screens won't be featuring tennis, golf or F1.

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I see and hear this discussion over and over, and mostly wonder why. If you prefer one or the other, perfectly fine - why evangelize? Why do we have to choose, or debate the merits and pick one over the other?

I truly like both, the new AC boats and the tech, speed and physicality. But I'd never miss a chance to watch J/Class boats racing either. I also watch F1 racing, but if a race with 60's Ferraris, Porsches, etc. comes on, I'd enjoy that too. YMMV

 

Agreed

fun enough writeup on the FP today

--

better than ever?

I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago refuting another writers assertion that sailing was somehow broken. I claimed the opposite citing flying boats and unbelievable record setting circumnavigations by some extraordinary French sailors, and I believe that my assessment was the right one. While I totally dislike the notion of doubling down because thats what crooked politicians do when caught out I feel that I need to double down on this one. I think that sailing is far from broken. Instead I think that sailing has never been stronger and more vibrant at least in the almost six decades that I have been messing around in boats.

To make my point I am going to cite three very different events, two that will take place this year and one next year. First there is the Americas Cup set to kick off in May in Bermuda. Yes I know that there are plenty who mourn the old days of 12-meters and dislike the modern AC 45s, but give me a break. I can remember when sailing was first televised. I think it was the Americas Cup in Fremantle back in the 80s. You could hear the onboard commentary and I remember Tom Whidden, the tactician, talking Dennis Conner, the skipper, through a tack. They had come about and were building speed on the new tack. Whidden was saying, speed coming up Dennis. Four knots, five six and a half.

Give me a break. Seven knots top boat speed. All that lead under the boat. Its no wonder people thought that sailing was the most boring sport ever. Take a look at this upcoming regatta. The closing speed of two AC 45s on opposite tacks can be as much as 70 miles an hour. Now thats what I call exciting. Two flying boats coming at each other racing full tilt on a razors edge between winning and catastrophe. Thats what people want to see. The chance of a pile up but if not, at least some superb, very exciting sailing.

As part of the same event there will be two additional, spectacular races. The Americas Cup J Class Regatta and the Americas Cup Superyacht Regatta. They estimate that eight Js will be there. Thats extraordinary. Most of those boats were once wrecks relegated to some backwater somewhere. Now they will be racing against each other in the turquoise waters of Bermuda. And then there is the Superyacht Regatta. While I am not really a fan of these behemoths there is something to be said for a whole lot of them lumbering around the same course. Nope, sorry, you can complain all you want about the Americas Cup but I am still a fan.

(etc)http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/04/03/better-than-ever/

Glad you gave a nod, albeit a passing nod, to Hancock's shout-out on the state of sailing today, including the America's Cup. Muggsy is an informed and entertaining commenter on sailing and in particular professional sailing, based on boatloads of hard-won experience.

The premis of his story is that sailing isn't broke because the AC is a great regatta, he thinks crashes could be good that and the speed makes it exciting...not sure how many sailors would agree

The J boat regatta will be good and most here would agree, super boats not so much...

I think they would agree that they are unlikely to be sailing in these events, but the races in which we are racing have much lower boat counts, fewer new sailors, very few kids joining in and that sailing is broke and won't be fixed by a few pros sailing boats unrelated to what we sail...

Ro, every sport has its pinnacle or pinnacles . . . rugby, soccer, archery, you name it. Really competitive individuals in all these sports aspire to the pinnacles. Sailing is no different and guys like Burling and Tuke started in small boats at local, ordinary, sailing club and are now headed for their Everest.

 

Is sailing broken? That debate has raged for at least the last three decades and yet builders are still building new boats. Just for example, Melges has introduced a new singlehander. Lots of cause and effect to consider -- global financial upheaval, calls on available discretionary time etc. However little in the way of broad hard evidence that interest in sailing is lessening.

 

One positive example: in January the 340-boat limit for 2017 Fastnet Race entries was reached in four minutes and 24 seconds, an all-time record!

.

I don't consider this AC format as the pinnacle of sail boat racing, it's a lazza/Russ vision of what it should be+ it keeps a bunch of pros in a regular gig.

Biurling and Tuke are gifted sailors and would excell in any AC sailing format

I would think that AK is an outlier in the sailing is broken debate, but I can tell you that it is broken in the US, boat counts are way down from ten years ago, however our local long distance race the 300 mile Chicago to Mackinac island has over 300 boats and the fastest growing section is the 2xA sail cruzer class, and I'll bet that not too many of them think that this AC vision is gonna save sailing.

 

"however our local long distance race the 300 mile Chicago to Mackinac island has over 300 boats and the fastest growing section is the 2xA sail cruzer class,"

 

I rest my case!

 

Note that I never held out the AC as the pinnacle of sailing. One of the many to aspire to but not the be-all and end-all. I pretty much said that in

my previous post above.

 

Bottom line for generalists: Sailing is not broken. It has been morphing in various wonderful ways but it's alive and kicking.

What ever you say dude....you win...

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The reason that the new format has lost the previous audience is as has been stated many times there is little for the majority of current or past sailors to relate to . Four pumps and two sailors running back and forth over the tramp is not something that carries a lot of interest.

The less you know about sailboat racing the more important sheer speed becomes in order to gain interest which is what the " sustainability gang " is counting on . As has been seen in a variety of different areas , its not working. Will the new AC catch on and regain the interest it once had is something that remains to be seen . They certainly have their work cut out for them as they have a long way to go to even be level with what the Americas Cup was once was, the pinnacle of sailing .

Of course sailing itself, all levels, has "a long way to go" to reach it's former "pinnacle" too, there might be some correlation there with AC interest. Most of the people who follow Formula 1 racing couldn't relate to what a Formula 1 driver does (whether they know it or not), yet Formula 1 still has millions of viewers.

And what was sailing's " former pinnacle?" Hard evidence please.

That's an easy one .

 

With perhaps the exception of your little island walk into almost any yacht club , especially those with racing programs , and ask who follows the Americas Cup . After they give you a blank look for a few moments and then go back to their conversations you will know just how irrevelant the AC has become .

 

JAR

 

JAR? Pfft! You may very well think so but my appreciation of the subject is closer to Brian Hancock's, or Stings take on it, immediately prior to your post.

 

I'm not sure that YC attitudes here several months ago about this AC were any different than your global example. The multiple distractions in our daily lives plus the appalling job Coutts and his gang have done in stifling public interest are just a couple of possible causes.

 

Walk into those same yacht clubs after the Bermuda preliminaries are done and the first race of the match is scheduled. The clubs will be crowded, there will be a buzz of anticipation and I promise the TV screens won't be featuring tennis, golf or F1.

 

 

In your town i agree but for the rest of the world , highly doubtful.

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FIFY. It's absolutely fine you like the good old days BTW, but folks who enjoy the new version too could care less what you think of the new. Funny thing, you don't see them running down your generations version of the old AC.

 

Meanwhile sailors from 25-45 have almost disappeared in the USA at least. The old guard is unwittingly killing off sailing, trying to preserve your decades past "pinnacle of sailing."

With perhaps the exception of your little island walk into almost any dock bunny yacht club with a median age of 75 , especially those with racing programs , and ask who follows the Americas Cup . After they give you a blank look for a few moments and then go back to their conversations bewildered about why two post Boomer generations of sailors have almost disappeared you will know just how irrevelant the AC has become .

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FIFY. It's absolutely fine you like the good old days BTW, but folks who enjoy the new version too could care less what you think of the new. Funny thing, you don't see them running down your generations version of the old AC.

Meanwhile sailors from 25-45 have almost disappeared in the USA at least. The old guard is unwittingly killing off sailing, trying to preserve your decades past "pinnacle of sailing."

With perhaps the exception of your little island walk into almost any dock bunny yacht club with a median age of 75 , especially those with racing programs , and ask who follows the Americas Cup . After they give you a blank look for a few moments and then go back to their conversations bewildered about why two post Boomer generations of sailors have almost disappeared you will know just how irrevelant the AC has become .

So.. in a thread titled 'why I prefer the old AC' no ones allowed to have an opinion on these boats or the regatta?

Funny thing...spinbot and his elk run down anything with a keel/leadmines on a regular basis..

I like the tech, but I'm not impressed with the races or the coutts plan to turn the AC into Nascar...and see no evidence that it's gonna bring back a revival of sailboat racing in this country.

As for pinnacle of sailing and coverage by the media/fan base, I think there's a good case for the Vendee and the imoca boats going around the world at 30knts singlehanded, on a foiling boat that actually looks like a sailboat..

 

So how about 85' foiling monos with soft sails on a proper race course...and if there's only a defender (ETNZ) and one challenger...so what, it's the Americas Cup..

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FIFY. It's absolutely fine you like the good old days BTW, but folks who enjoy the new version too could care less what you think of the new. Funny thing, you don't see them running down your generations version of the old AC.

Meanwhile sailors from 25-45 have almost disappeared in the USA at least. The old guard is unwittingly killing off sailing, trying to preserve your decades past "pinnacle of sailing."

With perhaps the exception of your little island walk into almost any dock bunny yacht club with a median age of 75 , especially those with racing programs , and ask who follows the Americas Cup . After they give you a blank look for a few moments and then go back to their conversations bewildered about why two post Boomer generations of sailors have almost disappeared you will know just how irrevelant the AC has become .

So.. in a thread titled 'why I prefer the old AC' no ones allowed to have an opinion on these boats or the regatta?

Funny thing...spinbot and his elk run down anything with a keel/leadmines on a regular basis..

I like the tech, but I'm not impressed with the races or the coutts plan to turn the AC into Nascar...and see no evidence that it's gonna bring back a revival of sailboat racing in this country.

As for pinnacle of sailing and coverage by the media/fan base, I think there's a good case for the Vendee and the imoca boats going around the world at 30knts singlehanded, on a foiling boat that actually looks like a sailboat..

So how about 85' foiling monos with soft sails on a proper race course...and if there's only a defender (ETNZ) and one challenger...so what, it's the Americas Cup..

As you know, I really enjoy watching both. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I clearly read fans of the old days (perfectly fine) also knocking the new AC in general. Why? That's basically what I was getting at. And then going on to suggest the supposed decline in AC viewers from the "pinnacle of sailing" reflects solely on the new AC boats/format - that's simply not true. Sailing in the USA has declined dramatically at all levels by any measure.

 

I've been hearing about the good old days for over 20 years while sailing goes the way of the abacus in the US at least, not just AC but yacht clubs, local racing, etc. - but I guess that's my problem. If anyone wonders why 25-45 year olds are staying away in droves, bringing back the old days won't fix it IMO. If you want to discuss further, you'll have to buy the beer...

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Walk into those same yacht clubs after the Bermuda preliminaries are done and the first race of the match is scheduled. The clubs will be crowded, there will be a buzz of anticipation and I promise the TV screens won't be featuring tennis, golf or F1.

I seriously doubt that will happen anywhere except Kiwistan.

 

Apart from the small matter that live coverage around here is only available with a BT Sport subscription, which generally clubs don't have.

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It will be somewhere between everyone and noone. And whatever interest there is will, like most things, be short lived except for maybe at a venue likely to hold the next AC.

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[MMeanwhile sailors from 25-45 have almost disappeared in the USA at least.

Sure, as far as I can make out its a worldwide phenomenon and largely related to the way the boomers have much of the income and nearly all the wealth. There's fuck all evidence the current AC format is bringing a new audience for sailing in any age group.

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[MMeanwhile sailors from 25-45 have almost disappeared in the USA at least.

 

Sure, as far as I can make out its a worldwide phenomenon and largely related to the way the boomers have much of the income and nearly all the wealth. There's fuck all evidence the current AC format is bringing a new audience for sailing in any age group.

What little increase , if any , in new AC fans there might be it would only be a small percentage of the number of former fans that have been lost .

 

Hopefully when they lose a hull they will gain back at least some of their former fan base and put forth a format that actual sailors can get behind and leave the one design / speed is everything plan to the X-games .

 

The current boats are cool and interesting but 20 min sprints with Four pumps and two sailors does not measure up to the pinnacle of sailing by any measure .

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Who the hell cares if the AC makes more people sail? I realize that a few people do think it should be a mission but it's sure as hell not me. I want to watch the bleeding edge and don't just care the rest. Let the normal sailing figure their own issues out, perfectly natural.

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^ 'So how about 85' foiling monos with soft sails on a proper race course.'

I would watch that too.

Really?...because you and the rest of the west coast mafia sure hammered on me when I suggested it a few years ago..of course at that time you guys thought that lazza would get 12-18 acws teams and at least 10 -12 AC teams..

How soon we forget...

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^ 'So how about 85' foiling monos with soft sails on a proper race course.'

I would watch that too.

Really?...because you and the rest of the west coast mafia sure hammered on me when I suggested it a few years ago..of course at that time you guys thought that lazza would get 12-18 acws teams and at least 10 -12 AC teams..

How soon we forget...

 

 

 

Don't include me in that comment .

 

When they gained a hull they lost their way.

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^ 'So how about 85' foiling monos with soft sails on a proper race course.'

I would watch that too.

Really?...because you and the rest of the west coast mafia sure hammered on me when I suggested it a few years ago..of course at that time you guys thought that lazza would get 12-18 acws teams and at least 10 -12 AC teams..

How soon we forget...

 

 

 

Don't include me in that comment .

 

When they gained a hull they lost their way.

 

 

Looking back at things now I will guess that all the excitement created by the two monster multi's put it in their heads that there was something there for them to build on. With all RC/LE had learned from the work-up to 33 that this would keep and build on the hype that was generated along with the technical knowledge they had gained. One problem that almost got them - ETNZ figuring-out the foiling loophole. They had to match and better the Kiwi's or lose all that they had been working towards since the revelation on multi's.

 

Other than their own and a smaller group of supporters are excited about the races to come starting in May. If it were not this way then why would a thread such as this one, and quite a few others, even exist? The small number of active participants in this forum now compared to just a couple of years ago is very noticeable, the Ed and Clean could verify the numbers. It is easy some days when you only see 2-3 threads that have a current response along with those that are 1-2 days without anything posted, some longer. You would never see that a couple of years ago. The numbers aren't there and we will have to see if they show-up in a few weeks.

 

We'll wait and see...

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The reason that the new format has lost the previous audience is as has been stated many times there is little for the majority of current or past sailors to relate to . Four pumps and two sailors running back and forth over the tramp is not something that carries a lot of interest.

The less you know about sailboat racing the more important sheer speed becomes in order to gain interest which is what the " sustainability gang " is counting on . As has been seen in a variety of different areas , its not working. Will the new AC catch on and regain the interest it once had is something that remains to be seen . They certainly have their work cut out for them as they have a long way to go to even be level with what the Americas Cup was once was, the pinnacle of sailing .

Of course sailing itself, all levels, has "a long way to go" to reach it's former "pinnacle" too, there might be some correlation there with AC interest. Most of the people who follow Formula 1 racing couldn't relate to what a Formula 1 driver does (whether they know it or not), yet Formula 1 still has millions of viewers.

And what was sailing's " former pinnacle?" Hard evidence please.

That's an easy one .

 

With perhaps the exception of your little island walk into almost any yacht club , especially those with racing programs , and ask who follows the Americas Cup . After they give you a blank look for a few moments and then go back to their conversations you will know just how irrevelant the AC has become .

 

JAR

 

JAR? Pfft! You may very well think so but my appreciation of the subject is closer to Brian Hancock's, or Stings take on it, immediately prior to your post.

 

I'm not sure that YC attitudes here several months ago about this AC were any different than your global example. The multiple distractions in our daily lives plus the appalling job Coutts and his gang have done in stifling public interest are just a couple of possible causes.

 

Walk into those same yacht clubs after the Bermuda preliminaries are done and the first race of the match is scheduled. The clubs will be crowded, there will be a buzz of anticipation and I promise the TV screens won't be featuring tennis, golf or F1.

 

In your town i agree but for the rest of the world , highly doubtful.

 

I'm content to see how this plays out -- say review club and public interest at the beginning of the semi-finals. Would be interesting so see reports from around the world.

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It would seem to me that Oracle are using their new foils and the early indications are that they are a bit unstable on them. This may just be a transition period but I hope not.

 

Also, the on board video they posted had the foils pixelated out but Stingers' photo very clearly shows the starboard foil. Good photography.

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Was this a late April Fools on the FP? Maybe more bad news for the lose a hull crowd, or another big race to bash? [Note: I still like both the new and the old]

 

http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/04/08/multi-mania/

 

And some others http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/2017/04/french-designer-picked-for-volvo-ocean-race-yachts/

 

http://www.sailfeed.com/2017/04/the-next-volvo-ocean-race-in-multihulls/

 

Verdier joined the Volvo Ocean Race Design Team and is working with the race on deciding whether the new boat will be a monohull or a multihull.

 

The final decision about the proposed designs will be announced May 18 at an event in Gothenburg, Sweden, home of race owner and title sponsor Volvo.

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I've been looking for video of the 2003 cup match, specifically the first race. Can't seem to find it on the interweb.

 

Anyone have any ideas? All help much appreciated- Serge

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We New Zealanders don't like to remember those 2003 races....

It's affected our psyche in a way we don't care to discuss outside of our close families

Fortunately the people at google agreed to remove all video evidence of the buckets and broken masts to reduce the emotional torture we must suffer

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My fear is the current cup is going to be decided by a catastrophic failure with a million carbon bits raining down on the course or because one of the boats turns turtle or a crew member gets g-forced off the face of the earth in a high speed turn.

 

I want to see it won by a team who shows great racing tactics and superior sail handling skills with sails actually going up/down throughout the race. I want to see sail changes and mark rounding clusterfucks in a fuckton of wind and waves. I want to see boats forcing their opponent into a penalty and engaging with each other.

 

As a sailor this is what is missing for me as I can relate to that. Sure the flat out speed is spectacular but it kind of feels like I'm watching F1 waiting for someone to stuff it into a concrete wall.

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I don't think the catastrophic failure will happen -the teams will be too good for it. But I agree with the theme of your comment completely. I don't think we'll see tacking duels, it's much more likely that one team will just sail away from the other as they'll have greater speed.

 

There were two notable races with TNZ against Alighi as i recall, one in Auckland in 2003 and one in Valencia which had some amazing close quarter tacking duels. Those were really amazing races.

 

Saying all that - I love the tech, love the speed and love the way that there are edges to the rule that have not yet been explored. The problem is that this (incredibly detailed foil development and control) is not accessible to 99.9% of the sailing population.

 

We will see quite incredible boat handling though, what the teams are doing at the moment is quite incredible in their coordination of controls through moves.

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It's fun to listen to the memories of "great racing tactics" in the good old days of the AC. I remember more races where the boat that won the start just protected their lead all the way around the course, staying between the mark and your competitor or match racing 101. The truth is most AC contests have been blowouts even shutouts. The "tacking duels" while great to watch have been few and far between, or desperate attempts to get the leader to make a maneuvering mistake. Many years ago a motor racing fan coworker of mine teased me after he watched a 12-meter AC race and heard the commentator (foolishly) refer to the lead boat having "an insurmountable 4 second lead."

 

And AC34 was the arguably the closest win ever, though admittedly more speed than tactics. However, the (pre)starts with the catamarans have been tactical.

 

Again, I love the old AC boats, AND the new very different versions. If you prefer one over the other, no problem. Why run down either?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Cup

post-301-0-32959100-1492001683_thumb.png

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These photo's may interest people who are interested in old America's cup challenges. It is a test model from the 2003 challenge. There is a huge story that has never been told about these things. I have both test models, this one and an ordinary single keel one. The twin keel one was VERY fast apparently. The photo's are not particularly clear but if you look hard enough they are very interesting

post-19565-0-15558700-1492033915_thumb.jpg

post-19565-0-45883800-1492033936_thumb.jpg

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