• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Crash

Twilight Race boat capsizes and hits King Harbor Pier

Recommended Posts

Yikes. I'm completely unfamiliar with the harbor, but will comment that sailboats and breakers are a risky combination. Use care. Good thing they had life jackets on, and glad no serious injuries.

Edit: Looks like the breaking wave was only next to the pier. Before that they were adrift with just a luffing jib up. Here is video from another angle that shows more.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Isufp-6fudo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More info:

 

http://www.foxla.com/news/local-news/245301159-story

 

According to the article, witnesses say they were leaving the harbor and never got the sails fully up. IDK why main isn't up...halyard broke? I'd guess the issue with the jib was that the flogging tangled the sheets and they couldn't trim it? I didn't see an OB...while sailing in and out a harbor entrance is fine, you do need to keep a bailout plan in the back of your mind, so that if an issue happens you aren't caught drifting into a more dangerous situation. It looks like prior to video they had at least one bailout option, and possibly could have anchored, depth permitting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like a Martin 242

That's what I thought myself Tut - a Martin 242 - as it was in the news last night. Other than cuts & bruises it sounds they are okay; not badly injured or worse. Seeing that on the boat talk about going pear shaped. Pretty scary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

IDK if they had a rudder failure...unable to tell from videos. But with only a luffing jib they weren't going to be able to gain ground to windward even if rudder was ok. They didn't have enough forward speed to make rudder effective. Jib was only increasing the sideways drift.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

IDK if they had a rudder failure...unable to tell from videos. But with only a luffing jib they weren't going to be able to gain ground to windward even if rudder was ok. They didn't have enough forward speed to make rudder effective. Jib was only increasing the sideways drift.

You are probably right. Hm, wonder if they thought "fuck, SA is going to have a field day when they see this"...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Witnesses said they were leaving the harbor and never got the sails fully up. I looked up a map, and it appears that in the video they were heading (or attempting) to return to the harbor. Possibly some issue arose prior that made them turn back?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

IDK if they had a rudder failure...unable to tell from videos. But with only a luffing jib they weren't going to be able to gain ground to windward even if rudder was ok. They didn't have enough forward speed to make rudder effective. Jib was only increasing the sideways drift.
You are probably right. Hm, wonder if they thought "fuck, SA is going to have a field day when they see this"...
they probably were thinking "fuck. Oh fuck."

Looks like they were trying to get something going until the very end. Might have been safer to abandon the boat and jump into water a bit earlier. Tough call to make....but I think being in the water is preferable to being aboard a boat crashing into a concrete pier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A small anchor tossed off the bow might have prevented all that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad injuries were minor. Since we're all armchairing this one, I have to say that the level of onboard activity/urgency doesn't correlate to the situation they were in . Which makes me wonder about their experience in conditions like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.....could have easily killed somebody/somebodies

Yes. Serious injuries or deaths were possible. They were very lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

Or lost clue?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I watched that video a bunch of times. I can't figure out what they were thinking. They didn't seem concerned about the pier until they were flying into it. I can only imagine there was some issue they were trying to resolve that was distracting them from the big picture of where they were given the conditions. Crazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The amount of inaction and deer in the headlights actions is astounding....

 

Darwin shoots........its off the post

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, that's scary, a blessing that no one was hurt. Looks like there was a problem with the jib sheet. Had a M242 they'll barely sail with just the jib, always put the main up before the jib. They scull great using the rudder. Instead of the helmsman just standing there hanging onto the tiller I'd been sculling like there was no tomorrow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

I suspect the luffing jib tangled the sheets so it couldn't be trimmed. I think the person forward is attempting to untangle them. At some point they should have just rigged a temp sheet or held the jib in by hand, in order to escape the immediate danger.

I don't know their experience level, or what issues they may have had prior, but my impression from the video is that they may not have been fully aware of the increasingly dangerous spot they were getting into, and didn't know how to avoid it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, I hate it when a cool boat is destroyed. Can't second guess but sure not a pretty situation from the start of the video.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would sculling on a boat that size help any? It may not have been enough, early enough to help out here though.

 

I also guess the jib sheets were wrapped up on each other. Its happened to me once or twice. Anyone have tricks for unwrapping them? Maybe sheet the leward one as hard as possible then unwinding the lazy sheet manually or possibly just by pulling on it.

 

One news account said they were coming in from a race so I suppose the main is lowered for the entry. What a shame. So glad they are ok. Imagine their thoughts when ever, if ever, they enter that harbor again. That is one scary video

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Martin 242. These are friends of mine, the gal having sailed on my boat many times. I don't have the story yet as they were in the hospital last night and all their phones are sleeping with the fishes. I just got an email from her saying all are OK.

Normally I'd have been out there but was on a business trip. Glad I missed this one. Another boat went on the rocks inside the channel but wasn't badly damaged.

The story I've been told from other racers is that it was blowing under 10kts at the race start but picked up to over 30kts within a half an hour of the gun. One other skipper told me he saw 38kt gust at the weather mark and he dropped out of the race. To be continued.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Longer video:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AdYTGre3fAA

 

In the comments section of the shorter video posted, there is an arguement whether the boat was leaving or entering. IMO it was possibly both...the boat was entering the harbor (looks like main was just lowered at start of long video), had some issue with jib trim, appears at start of long video they are headed back out, then steer downwind forwards pier, then attempt to steer back in.

I'm still not sure what they were thinking, why they dropped main (especially if jibsheets were tangled), why they didn't just hold jib by hand and steer in a safe direction until they got sorted out.

Videographer also commented in short video that they nearly hit another boat before he started video.

From comments, it sounds like the boats left the harbor in 10-12, though seas were big, and during the race the wind shifted and quickly built to alleged 30.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 242 has an OB motor, right? If so I question that they were headed in as I don't see an OB mounted on the stern. Could be sailing in w/o a motor mounted, plenty of breeze for that, but sailing in w/o OB mounted and the main down?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the longer vid, you can see the bow guy hand sheets the jib about 3 seconds before they get rolled. Looks like he kicked the jib car right before that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 242 has an OB motor, right? If so I question that they were headed in as I don't see an OB mounted on the stern. Could be sailing in w/o a motor mounted, plenty of breeze for that, but sailing in w/o OB mounted and the main down?

I don't know if they had on, or if race instructions required one. Didn't appear to me one was on the stern. It should have been fairly easy for a reasonably skilled crew to sail in. If they weren't confident of their ability to sail in (evidenced by dropping main?), then they should have motored in or caught a tow. Early on in the longer video, they're still clear of the pier. They could have sailed in under jib alone even at that point, if it was trimmed. Whatever issues they had prior and during the video, they didn't appear to be dealing with them very well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The 242 has an OB motor, right? If so I question that they were headed in as I don't see an OB mounted on the stern. Could be sailing in w/o a motor mounted, plenty of breeze for that, but sailing in w/o OB mounted and the main down?

I don't know if they had on, or if race instructions required one. Didn't appear to me one was on the stern. It should have been fairly easy for a reasonably skilled crew to sail in. If they weren't confident of their ability to sail in (evidenced by dropping main?), then they should have motored in or caught a tow. Early on in the longer video, they're still clear of the pier. They could have sailed in under jib alone even at that point, if it was trimmed.

 

 

guessing the jib got fucked while they were fighting to put the main away

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man did they get off lucky. That easily could have been so very much worse. imagine being flicked off the deck towards barnacle-encrusted pilings, in surf, WITH the boat (or big pieces of it) right on your ass - the crush & entanglement factor is off the charts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

I suspect the luffing jib tangled the sheets so it couldn't be trimmed. I think the person forward is attempting to untangle them. At some point they should have just rigged a temp sheet or held the jib in by hand, in order to escape the immediate danger.

I don't know their experience level, or what issues they may have had prior, but my impression from the video is that they may not have been fully aware of the increasingly dangerous spot they were getting into, and didn't know how to avoid it.

 

Yeah, but that's how boats on Western LIS sail all the time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I take it back; looks like there were other boats heading in.

 

Maybe they dropped the OB overboard while attempting to mount it?

 

Whatever the story is, it will be a good one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Worst Day Working

 

is No Worse than the Worst Day Fishing, Swimming, Sailing or Drinking

 

No Matter what ant tShirt might say !!

 

Glad everyone made it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looked like they had something good going on until they didn't. In breeze like that, with a boat like that, you never take the main down. Glad they are ok, looked like it happened faster than anyone expected it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

I suspect the luffing jib tangled the sheets so it couldn't be trimmed. I think the person forward is attempting to untangle them. At some point they should have just rigged a temp sheet or held the jib in by hand, in order to escape the immediate danger.

I don't know their experience level, or what issues they may have had prior, but my impression from the video is that they may not have been fully aware of the increasingly dangerous spot they were getting into, and didn't know how to avoid it.

 

 

You must go to the gym alot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

I suspect the luffing jib tangled the sheets so it couldn't be trimmed. I think the person forward is attempting to untangle them. At some point they should have just rigged a temp sheet or held the jib in by hand, in order to escape the immediate danger.

I don't know their experience level, or what issues they may have had prior, but my impression from the video is that they may not have been fully aware of the increasingly dangerous spot they were getting into, and didn't know how to avoid it.

You must go to the gym alot.

It's a small jib. Didn't need to strap it in tight, just hold it in so it fills a little and stops flogging, while another crew untangles. That would allow steerage way on a beam reaching course clear of the immediate danger to leeward. Better than just sitting there waiting to drift into a concrete pier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main must have been fucked as well.

 

Edit: so looking at the longer video, it looks like they are trying to put the main away and the jib gets fucked. I think the lesson here is that they needed to switch to "oh shit" mode a lot sooner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad everyone is OK. OMG, those videos are humbling! The power of water. The one video shot from the other side of the pier shows the hull/deck structure basically being smashed to bits within 3 wave sets. They were all so lucky to get out of there alive and this is the one rare example you are glad to NOT be tethered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

I suspect the luffing jib tangled the sheets so it couldn't be trimmed. I think the person forward is attempting to untangle them. At some point they should have just rigged a temp sheet or held the jib in by hand, in order to escape the immediate danger.

I don't know their experience level, or what issues they may have had prior, but my impression from the video is that they may not have been fully aware of the increasingly dangerous spot they were getting into, and didn't know how to avoid it.

You must go to the gym alot.

It's a small jib. Didn't need to strap it in tight, just hold it in so it fills a little and stops flogging, while another crew untangles. That would allow steerage way on a beam reaching course clear of the immediate danger to leeward. Better than just sitting there waiting to drift into a concrete pier.

 

That's what I was thinking-just need to pull it ennough to beam reach a bit to ge taway from the pier. The guy does eventually pull it in right before the wave breaks over them

Fuckin A. Glad they're all OK. What a bummer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It look like they had it under control at around 1:30 (making way with the blade) on the long vid but then the jib luffed again and they were done. Yes the destruction of the boat was very humbling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

M242 racing OD don't sail with motor mounted on stern.

 

The Helmsman had the tiller hard down, acting as a brake, the were essentially hove to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

M242 racing OD don't sail with motor mounted on stern.

 

The Helmsman had the tiller hard down, acting as a brake, the were essentially hove to.

Beer can race, probably PHRF. IDK what their rules are. Some clubs require OB on stern, some require on board but can be stored below, and some may not require a motor at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been 20 years since I sailed there but I do recall there wasn't all that much room for error or bad luck.

redondo%20map%202.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at Owen's diagram, I think at the beginning of the long video they were heading towards open water, from right to left. They should have kept going while they sorted out their problems and got the boat under control. Once they turned back in, not under control, they were in trouble. A quickly deployed anchor may have held them until they could summon help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That harbor pic^^ adds a lot of context if the pier they hit is the one at the bottom. Drop main, sail inside breakwall on the jib and mount the OB there with no drama. Looks like they missed happy hour by 50 yards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who's job was it to hold the beer? Clearly they are to blame... everything is fine, the skip says hold my beer, beer gets dropped and carnage ensues....

 

Never drop the beer kiddies...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That harbor pic^^ adds a lot of context if the pier they hit is the one at the bottom. Drop main, sail inside breakwall on the jib and mount the OB there with no drama. Looks like they missed happy hour by 50 yards.

Appears to be a pier complex, enclosing a couple of triangular lagoons. As near as I can tell they hit where it says Redondo Beach Pier, and the people washed in along that line of print. I don't think they could have cleared that inner breakwater just above the pier complex even if they got going, but they would have bought themselves a couple extra minutes to get an anchor out and holler for help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't be surprised if there was no anchor onboard that boat. Most boats I've raced didn't have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really irazu ? that's not very smart. Everybody here carries an anchor - even though it's completely useless once you are a 1/2 mile out in most places.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not saying I agree. I would never and have never sailed my own boat without an anchor. I just know that other people's boats I've raced on didn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not saying I agree. I would never and have never sailed my own boat without an anchor. I just know that other people's boats I've raced on didn't.

Anchors are required safety equip- what the fuck shitty ass program are you with?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That looks like the kind of boat that probably carries a very small anchor just to say it does, if any at all. Have to wonder if an anchor would have done much of anything in that swell. Might have just been a deadly projectile once the boat goes over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Not saying I agree. I would never and have never sailed my own boat without an anchor. I just know that other people's boats I've raced on didn't.

Anchors are required safety equip- what the fuck shitty ass program are you with?

I totally agree with you. Haven't raced in 15 yrs. I raced on one boat that didn't even have a bilge pump because they didn't want the extra weight for the battery power. Stupid. Especially when the water sloshing around would be more weight than the battery, and in the wrong place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

IDK if they had a rudder failure...unable to tell from videos. But with only a luffing jib they weren't going to be able to gain ground to windward even if rudder was ok. They didn't have enough forward speed to make rudder effective. Jib was only increasing the sideways drift.

You are probably right. Hm, wonder if they thought "fuck, SA is going to have a field day when they see this"...

Only after a shower and a bottle of rum to calm the nerves. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not going to second-guess because I wasn't on the boat, but I'm looking forward to hearing the story from someone who was - and glad they're all still around to tell it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't be surprised if there was no anchor onboard that boat. Most boats I've raced didn't have one.

Unless you're sailing a Laser or Sunfish type boat, that's not too smart. Even the lowest Category requires an anchor and suitable rode.

And addressing the comment below about bilge pump...any boat with an enclosed cabin should at least have a manual pump. All boats should have a suitable bucket, or a bailer in case of a dinghy.

Wow, I can't believe people are ignoring basic common sense. Yikes!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am getting a good laugh out of all the "if only they had an outboard" comments.

Wow, just wow.

Don't think anyone has said that. Not known if they had one or not. If they did, it would have gotten them into the harbor. Wouldn't have helped once they were in breakers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there was no anchor onboard that boat. Most boats I've raced didn't have one.

Unless you're sailing a Laser or Sunfish type boat, that's not too smart. Even the lowest Category requires an anchor and suitable rode.

And addressing the comment below about bilge pump...any boat with an enclosed cabin should at least have a manual pump. All boats should have a suitable bucket, or a bailer in case of a dinghy.

Wow, I can't believe people are ignoring basic common sense. Yikes!

I hear ya. What can I say. I was a young guy with no boat of my own and just happy to be out there. I got ultra conservative once I had my own boat. And a few years wiser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is an 8 minute video showing what the skipper did wrong. Make sure you go full screen.
It's pretty obvious they had problems ( or bad calls) way before the pier. Looks like a bunch of SFV sailors.
This is a classic example of how not to sail off of a lee shore.
No Main and the jib, wind and wave pushing the bow down.
Please everyone remember a sailboat pivots on the keel.

 



If I were an Insurance adjuster, I would call negligence on the skippers part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there was no anchor onboard that boat. Most boats I've raced didn't have one.

Unless you're sailing a Laser or Sunfish type boat, that's not too smart. Even the lowest Category requires an anchor and suitable rode.

And addressing the comment below about bilge pump...any boat with an enclosed cabin should at least have a manual pump. All boats should have a suitable bucket, or a bailer in case of a dinghy.

Wow, I can't believe people are ignoring basic common sense. Yikes!

I hear ya. What can I say. I was a young guy with no boat of my own and just happy to be out there. I got ultra conservative once I had my own boat. And a few years wiser.
I hear Ya on the older and wiser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very lucky nobody was seriously injured or killed......and very few seamanship skills demonstrated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is an 8 minute video showing what the skipper did wrong. Make sure you go full screen.

It's pretty obvious they had problems ( or bad calls) way before the pier. Looks like a bunch of SFV sailors.

This is a classic example of how not to sail off of a lee shore.

No Main and the jib, wind and wave pushing the bow down.

Please everyone remember a sailboat pivots on the keel.

 

 

If I were an Insurance adjuster, I would call negligence on the skippers part.

What is your point? Negligence is not a coverage exclusion for property damage - that is why you buy insurance, in case you f up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless I've been completely out to lunch for the past 15 years, anchors are mandatory by PHRF Ches Bay. Is that not the case in other regions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is an 8 minute video showing what the skipper did wrong. Make sure you go full screen.

It's pretty obvious they had problems ( or bad calls) way before the pier. Looks like a bunch of SFV sailors.

This is a classic example of how not to sail off of a lee shore.

No Main and the jib, wind and wave pushing the bow down.

Please everyone remember a sailboat pivots on the keel.

 

 

If I were an Insurance adjuster, I would call negligence on the skippers part.

You would be sued so quickly it would make you pivot around your 1 brain cell and then get you released from further insurance adjustment work .

 

Pretty evident at the beginning of the vid, that they were not under power, nor had a jib unfurled and the main at boom level. Indicating a potential failure of the main halyard.

 

Also, that the Martin 242 can be sailed easily under mainsail only, should not stop you from pontificating on a subject of which you clearly have little knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites