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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Crash

Twilight Race boat capsizes and hits King Harbor Pier

306 posts in this topic

Yikes. I'm completely unfamiliar with the harbor, but will comment that sailboats and breakers are a risky combination. Use care. Good thing they had life jackets on, and glad no serious injuries.

Edit: Looks like the breaking wave was only next to the pier. Before that they were adrift with just a luffing jib up. Here is video from another angle that shows more.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Isufp-6fudo

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Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

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Wow, Amazing no one was hurt.

 

We could all postulate what he/they should have done but Wow.

 

Make sure your motor works before heading out in shit like that.

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More info:

 

http://www.foxla.com/news/local-news/245301159-story

 

According to the article, witnesses say they were leaving the harbor and never got the sails fully up. IDK why main isn't up...halyard broke? I'd guess the issue with the jib was that the flogging tangled the sheets and they couldn't trim it? I didn't see an OB...while sailing in and out a harbor entrance is fine, you do need to keep a bailout plan in the back of your mind, so that if an issue happens you aren't caught drifting into a more dangerous situation. It looks like prior to video they had at least one bailout option, and possibly could have anchored, depth permitting.

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Looks like a Martin 242

That's what I thought myself Tut - a Martin 242 - as it was in the news last night. Other than cuts & bruises it sounds they are okay; not badly injured or worse. Seeing that on the boat talk about going pear shaped. Pretty scary.

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Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

IDK if they had a rudder failure...unable to tell from videos. But with only a luffing jib they weren't going to be able to gain ground to windward even if rudder was ok. They didn't have enough forward speed to make rudder effective. Jib was only increasing the sideways drift.

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Yup.....Martin 242 alright:

 

That is sooo scary! Very lucky they are still with us.

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Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

IDK if they had a rudder failure...unable to tell from videos. But with only a luffing jib they weren't going to be able to gain ground to windward even if rudder was ok. They didn't have enough forward speed to make rudder effective. Jib was only increasing the sideways drift.

You are probably right. Hm, wonder if they thought "fuck, SA is going to have a field day when they see this"...

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Rudder was fine, you can see it in the news footage as it goes over.

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Witnesses said they were leaving the harbor and never got the sails fully up. I looked up a map, and it appears that in the video they were heading (or attempting) to return to the harbor. Possibly some issue arose prior that made them turn back?

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That's not fast.

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Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

IDK if they had a rudder failure...unable to tell from videos. But with only a luffing jib they weren't going to be able to gain ground to windward even if rudder was ok. They didn't have enough forward speed to make rudder effective. Jib was only increasing the sideways drift.
You are probably right. Hm, wonder if they thought "fuck, SA is going to have a field day when they see this"...
they probably were thinking "fuck. Oh fuck."

Looks like they were trying to get something going until the very end. Might have been safer to abandon the boat and jump into water a bit earlier. Tough call to make....but I think being in the water is preferable to being aboard a boat crashing into a concrete pier.

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A small anchor tossed off the bow might have prevented all that.

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Glad injuries were minor. Since we're all armchairing this one, I have to say that the level of onboard activity/urgency doesn't correlate to the situation they were in . Which makes me wonder about their experience in conditions like that.

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.....could have easily killed somebody/somebodies

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.....could have easily killed somebody/somebodies

Yes. Serious injuries or deaths were possible. They were very lucky.

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Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

Or lost clue?

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The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

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I watched that video a bunch of times. I can't figure out what they were thinking. They didn't seem concerned about the pier until they were flying into it. I can only imagine there was some issue they were trying to resolve that was distracting them from the big picture of where they were given the conditions. Crazy.

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The amount of inaction and deer in the headlights actions is astounding....

 

Darwin shoots........its off the post

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Wow, that's scary, a blessing that no one was hurt. Looks like there was a problem with the jib sheet. Had a M242 they'll barely sail with just the jib, always put the main up before the jib. They scull great using the rudder. Instead of the helmsman just standing there hanging onto the tiller I'd been sculling like there was no tomorrow.

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They're still alive, so I guess Darwin missed, fortunately.

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The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

I suspect the luffing jib tangled the sheets so it couldn't be trimmed. I think the person forward is attempting to untangle them. At some point they should have just rigged a temp sheet or held the jib in by hand, in order to escape the immediate danger.

I don't know their experience level, or what issues they may have had prior, but my impression from the video is that they may not have been fully aware of the increasingly dangerous spot they were getting into, and didn't know how to avoid it.

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Wow, I hate it when a cool boat is destroyed. Can't second guess but sure not a pretty situation from the start of the video.

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Would sculling on a boat that size help any? It may not have been enough, early enough to help out here though.

 

I also guess the jib sheets were wrapped up on each other. Its happened to me once or twice. Anyone have tricks for unwrapping them? Maybe sheet the leward one as hard as possible then unwinding the lazy sheet manually or possibly just by pulling on it.

 

One news account said they were coming in from a race so I suppose the main is lowered for the entry. What a shame. So glad they are ok. Imagine their thoughts when ever, if ever, they enter that harbor again. That is one scary video

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I'm guessing there was a winch override on the jib sheet.

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Martin 242. These are friends of mine, the gal having sailed on my boat many times. I don't have the story yet as they were in the hospital last night and all their phones are sleeping with the fishes. I just got an email from her saying all are OK.

Normally I'd have been out there but was on a business trip. Glad I missed this one. Another boat went on the rocks inside the channel but wasn't badly damaged.

The story I've been told from other racers is that it was blowing under 10kts at the race start but picked up to over 30kts within a half an hour of the gun. One other skipper told me he saw 38kt gust at the weather mark and he dropped out of the race. To be continued.

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another reason to have a lash of rope and knife within arms reach at all times!

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Longer video:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AdYTGre3fAA

 

In the comments section of the shorter video posted, there is an arguement whether the boat was leaving or entering. IMO it was possibly both...the boat was entering the harbor (looks like main was just lowered at start of long video), had some issue with jib trim, appears at start of long video they are headed back out, then steer downwind forwards pier, then attempt to steer back in.

I'm still not sure what they were thinking, why they dropped main (especially if jibsheets were tangled), why they didn't just hold jib by hand and steer in a safe direction until they got sorted out.

Videographer also commented in short video that they nearly hit another boat before he started video.

From comments, it sounds like the boats left the harbor in 10-12, though seas were big, and during the race the wind shifted and quickly built to alleged 30.

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The 242 has an OB motor, right? If so I question that they were headed in as I don't see an OB mounted on the stern. Could be sailing in w/o a motor mounted, plenty of breeze for that, but sailing in w/o OB mounted and the main down?

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Rimas Meleshyus School for Upwind Sailing

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On the longer vid, you can see the bow guy hand sheets the jib about 3 seconds before they get rolled. Looks like he kicked the jib car right before that.

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The 242 has an OB motor, right? If so I question that they were headed in as I don't see an OB mounted on the stern. Could be sailing in w/o a motor mounted, plenty of breeze for that, but sailing in w/o OB mounted and the main down?

I don't know if they had on, or if race instructions required one. Didn't appear to me one was on the stern. It should have been fairly easy for a reasonably skilled crew to sail in. If they weren't confident of their ability to sail in (evidenced by dropping main?), then they should have motored in or caught a tow. Early on in the longer video, they're still clear of the pier. They could have sailed in under jib alone even at that point, if it was trimmed. Whatever issues they had prior and during the video, they didn't appear to be dealing with them very well.

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The 242 has an OB motor, right? If so I question that they were headed in as I don't see an OB mounted on the stern. Could be sailing in w/o a motor mounted, plenty of breeze for that, but sailing in w/o OB mounted and the main down?

I don't know if they had on, or if race instructions required one. Didn't appear to me one was on the stern. It should have been fairly easy for a reasonably skilled crew to sail in. If they weren't confident of their ability to sail in (evidenced by dropping main?), then they should have motored in or caught a tow. Early on in the longer video, they're still clear of the pier. They could have sailed in under jib alone even at that point, if it was trimmed.

 

 

guessing the jib got fucked while they were fighting to put the main away

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Man did they get off lucky. That easily could have been so very much worse. imagine being flicked off the deck towards barnacle-encrusted pilings, in surf, WITH the boat (or big pieces of it) right on your ass - the crush & entanglement factor is off the charts.

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The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

I suspect the luffing jib tangled the sheets so it couldn't be trimmed. I think the person forward is attempting to untangle them. At some point they should have just rigged a temp sheet or held the jib in by hand, in order to escape the immediate danger.

I don't know their experience level, or what issues they may have had prior, but my impression from the video is that they may not have been fully aware of the increasingly dangerous spot they were getting into, and didn't know how to avoid it.

 

Yeah, but that's how boats on Western LIS sail all the time

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I take it back; looks like there were other boats heading in.

 

Maybe they dropped the OB overboard while attempting to mount it?

 

Whatever the story is, it will be a good one.

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The Worst Day Working

 

is No Worse than the Worst Day Fishing, Swimming, Sailing or Drinking

 

No Matter what ant tShirt might say !!

 

Glad everyone made it

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It looked like they had something good going on until they didn't. In breeze like that, with a boat like that, you never take the main down. Glad they are ok, looked like it happened faster than anyone expected it.

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The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

I suspect the luffing jib tangled the sheets so it couldn't be trimmed. I think the person forward is attempting to untangle them. At some point they should have just rigged a temp sheet or held the jib in by hand, in order to escape the immediate danger.

I don't know their experience level, or what issues they may have had prior, but my impression from the video is that they may not have been fully aware of the increasingly dangerous spot they were getting into, and didn't know how to avoid it.

 

 

You must go to the gym alot.

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The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

I suspect the luffing jib tangled the sheets so it couldn't be trimmed. I think the person forward is attempting to untangle them. At some point they should have just rigged a temp sheet or held the jib in by hand, in order to escape the immediate danger.

I don't know their experience level, or what issues they may have had prior, but my impression from the video is that they may not have been fully aware of the increasingly dangerous spot they were getting into, and didn't know how to avoid it.

You must go to the gym alot.

It's a small jib. Didn't need to strap it in tight, just hold it in so it fills a little and stops flogging, while another crew untangles. That would allow steerage way on a beam reaching course clear of the immediate danger to leeward. Better than just sitting there waiting to drift into a concrete pier.

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The main must have been fucked as well.

 

Edit: so looking at the longer video, it looks like they are trying to put the main away and the jib gets fucked. I think the lesson here is that they needed to switch to "oh shit" mode a lot sooner.

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Glad everyone is OK. OMG, those videos are humbling! The power of water. The one video shot from the other side of the pier shows the hull/deck structure basically being smashed to bits within 3 wave sets. They were all so lucky to get out of there alive and this is the one rare example you are glad to NOT be tethered.

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The crew on deck appears to be holding on to the jib sheet. Maybe they could try a winch or cleat next time. Four on board and none are doing anything of much use.

 

Conditions aren't really severe. Comments on the YouTube page are mostly nonsense.

I suspect the luffing jib tangled the sheets so it couldn't be trimmed. I think the person forward is attempting to untangle them. At some point they should have just rigged a temp sheet or held the jib in by hand, in order to escape the immediate danger.

I don't know their experience level, or what issues they may have had prior, but my impression from the video is that they may not have been fully aware of the increasingly dangerous spot they were getting into, and didn't know how to avoid it.

You must go to the gym alot.

It's a small jib. Didn't need to strap it in tight, just hold it in so it fills a little and stops flogging, while another crew untangles. That would allow steerage way on a beam reaching course clear of the immediate danger to leeward. Better than just sitting there waiting to drift into a concrete pier.

 

That's what I was thinking-just need to pull it ennough to beam reach a bit to ge taway from the pier. The guy does eventually pull it in right before the wave breaks over them

Fuckin A. Glad they're all OK. What a bummer

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It look like they had it under control at around 1:30 (making way with the blade) on the long vid but then the jib luffed again and they were done. Yes the destruction of the boat was very humbling.

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"Hey . . . you scratched my pier !!!"

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M242 racing OD don't sail with motor mounted on stern.

 

The Helmsman had the tiller hard down, acting as a brake, the were essentially hove to.

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M242 racing OD don't sail with motor mounted on stern.

 

The Helmsman had the tiller hard down, acting as a brake, the were essentially hove to.

Beer can race, probably PHRF. IDK what their rules are. Some clubs require OB on stern, some require on board but can be stored below, and some may not require a motor at all.

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It's been 20 years since I sailed there but I do recall there wasn't all that much room for error or bad luck.

redondo%20map%202.jpg

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Looking at Owen's diagram, I think at the beginning of the long video they were heading towards open water, from right to left. They should have kept going while they sorted out their problems and got the boat under control. Once they turned back in, not under control, they were in trouble. A quickly deployed anchor may have held them until they could summon help.

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That harbor pic^^ adds a lot of context if the pier they hit is the one at the bottom. Drop main, sail inside breakwall on the jib and mount the OB there with no drama. Looks like they missed happy hour by 50 yards.

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Who's job was it to hold the beer? Clearly they are to blame... everything is fine, the skip says hold my beer, beer gets dropped and carnage ensues....

 

Never drop the beer kiddies...

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That harbor pic^^ adds a lot of context if the pier they hit is the one at the bottom. Drop main, sail inside breakwall on the jib and mount the OB there with no drama. Looks like they missed happy hour by 50 yards.

Appears to be a pier complex, enclosing a couple of triangular lagoons. As near as I can tell they hit where it says Redondo Beach Pier, and the people washed in along that line of print. I don't think they could have cleared that inner breakwater just above the pier complex even if they got going, but they would have bought themselves a couple extra minutes to get an anchor out and holler for help.

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I wouldn't be surprised if there was no anchor onboard that boat. Most boats I've raced didn't have one.

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Really irazu ? that's not very smart. Everybody here carries an anchor - even though it's completely useless once you are a 1/2 mile out in most places.

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Not saying I agree. I would never and have never sailed my own boat without an anchor. I just know that other people's boats I've raced on didn't.

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Not saying I agree. I would never and have never sailed my own boat without an anchor. I just know that other people's boats I've raced on didn't.

Anchors are required safety equip- what the fuck shitty ass program are you with?

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That looks like the kind of boat that probably carries a very small anchor just to say it does, if any at all. Have to wonder if an anchor would have done much of anything in that swell. Might have just been a deadly projectile once the boat goes over.

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Not saying I agree. I would never and have never sailed my own boat without an anchor. I just know that other people's boats I've raced on didn't.

Anchors are required safety equip- what the fuck shitty ass program are you with?

I totally agree with you. Haven't raced in 15 yrs. I raced on one boat that didn't even have a bilge pump because they didn't want the extra weight for the battery power. Stupid. Especially when the water sloshing around would be more weight than the battery, and in the wrong place.

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Lost rudder? Not a good angle against the waves but the helmsman looks like he's trying to point better at them...?

IDK if they had a rudder failure...unable to tell from videos. But with only a luffing jib they weren't going to be able to gain ground to windward even if rudder was ok. They didn't have enough forward speed to make rudder effective. Jib was only increasing the sideways drift.

You are probably right. Hm, wonder if they thought "fuck, SA is going to have a field day when they see this"...

Only after a shower and a bottle of rum to calm the nerves. ;)

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Clearly, if these guys had been sailing a Bent Swain Steel Orgami boat, they'd have had no worries - that pier would be toast though.

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Not going to second-guess because I wasn't on the boat, but I'm looking forward to hearing the story from someone who was - and glad they're all still around to tell it.

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I am getting a good laugh out of all the "if only they had an outboard" comments.

Wow, just wow.

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I wouldn't be surprised if there was no anchor onboard that boat. Most boats I've raced didn't have one.

Unless you're sailing a Laser or Sunfish type boat, that's not too smart. Even the lowest Category requires an anchor and suitable rode.

And addressing the comment below about bilge pump...any boat with an enclosed cabin should at least have a manual pump. All boats should have a suitable bucket, or a bailer in case of a dinghy.

Wow, I can't believe people are ignoring basic common sense. Yikes!

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I am getting a good laugh out of all the "if only they had an outboard" comments.

Wow, just wow.

Don't think anyone has said that. Not known if they had one or not. If they did, it would have gotten them into the harbor. Wouldn't have helped once they were in breakers.

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I wouldn't be surprised if there was no anchor onboard that boat. Most boats I've raced didn't have one.

Unless you're sailing a Laser or Sunfish type boat, that's not too smart. Even the lowest Category requires an anchor and suitable rode.

And addressing the comment below about bilge pump...any boat with an enclosed cabin should at least have a manual pump. All boats should have a suitable bucket, or a bailer in case of a dinghy.

Wow, I can't believe people are ignoring basic common sense. Yikes!

I hear ya. What can I say. I was a young guy with no boat of my own and just happy to be out there. I got ultra conservative once I had my own boat. And a few years wiser.

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Here is an 8 minute video showing what the skipper did wrong. Make sure you go full screen.
It's pretty obvious they had problems ( or bad calls) way before the pier. Looks like a bunch of SFV sailors.
This is a classic example of how not to sail off of a lee shore.
No Main and the jib, wind and wave pushing the bow down.
Please everyone remember a sailboat pivots on the keel.

 



If I were an Insurance adjuster, I would call negligence on the skippers part.

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I wouldn't be surprised if there was no anchor onboard that boat. Most boats I've raced didn't have one.

Unless you're sailing a Laser or Sunfish type boat, that's not too smart. Even the lowest Category requires an anchor and suitable rode.

And addressing the comment below about bilge pump...any boat with an enclosed cabin should at least have a manual pump. All boats should have a suitable bucket, or a bailer in case of a dinghy.

Wow, I can't believe people are ignoring basic common sense. Yikes!

I hear ya. What can I say. I was a young guy with no boat of my own and just happy to be out there. I got ultra conservative once I had my own boat. And a few years wiser.
I hear Ya on the older and wiser.

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Very lucky nobody was seriously injured or killed......and very few seamanship skills demonstrated.

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Here is an 8 minute video showing what the skipper did wrong. Make sure you go full screen.

It's pretty obvious they had problems ( or bad calls) way before the pier. Looks like a bunch of SFV sailors.

This is a classic example of how not to sail off of a lee shore.

No Main and the jib, wind and wave pushing the bow down.

Please everyone remember a sailboat pivots on the keel.

 

 

If I were an Insurance adjuster, I would call negligence on the skippers part.

What is your point? Negligence is not a coverage exclusion for property damage - that is why you buy insurance, in case you f up.

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Unless I've been completely out to lunch for the past 15 years, anchors are mandatory by PHRF Ches Bay. Is that not the case in other regions?

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Knowing your fucked and run the downhill gauntlet would have been funner to watch.

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Here is an 8 minute video showing what the skipper did wrong. Make sure you go full screen.

It's pretty obvious they had problems ( or bad calls) way before the pier. Looks like a bunch of SFV sailors.

This is a classic example of how not to sail off of a lee shore.

No Main and the jib, wind and wave pushing the bow down.

Please everyone remember a sailboat pivots on the keel.

 

 

If I were an Insurance adjuster, I would call negligence on the skippers part.

You would be sued so quickly it would make you pivot around your 1 brain cell and then get you released from further insurance adjustment work .

 

Pretty evident at the beginning of the vid, that they were not under power, nor had a jib unfurled and the main at boom level. Indicating a potential failure of the main halyard.

 

Also, that the Martin 242 can be sailed easily under mainsail only, should not stop you from pontificating on a subject of which you clearly have little knowledge.

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Here is an 8 minute video showing what the skipper did wrong. Make sure you go full screen.

It's pretty obvious they had problems ( or bad calls) way before the pier. Looks like a bunch of SFV sailors.

This is a classic example of how not to sail off of a lee shore.

No Main and the jib, wind and wave pushing the bow down.

Please everyone remember a sailboat pivots on the keel.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdYTGre3fAA

 

If I were an Insurance adjuster, I would call negligence on the skippers part.

You would be sued so quickly it would make you pivot around your 1 brain cell and then get you released from further insurance adjustment work .

 

Pretty evident at the beginning of the vid, that they were not under power, nor had a jib unfurled and the main at boom level. Indicating a potential failure of the main halyard.

 

Also, that the Martin 242 can be sailed easily under mainsail only, should not stop you from pontificating on a subject of which you clearly have little knowledge.

You must be blind. The jib is clearly unfurled and luffing at the beginning of the video. It's pure speculation the main halyard broke...we don't know why the main is down. The boat is heading to the left, which appears to be a safe direction. They're well to windward of the pier, and look to be able to clear it and head towards deeper water. They never get the jib sorted out, but jibe around onto a course that heads towards being embayed...they can't get out unless they get the boat moving. They never get the jib trimmed. Skipper is holding the tiller hard to leeward...they are essentially hove-to, drifting sideways. No-one makes an effort to get out the anchor (if carried). The two crew in cockpit just sit there.

Now, I agree it's not negligence. We don't know the full story, but the video appears to indicate they didn't know what they were doing. At no time does it show a good decision being made...quite the opposite, in fact. We'll have to see what their story is, but the video is what it is.

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Here is an 8 minute video showing what the skipper did wrong. Make sure you go full screen.

It's pretty obvious they had problems ( or bad calls) way before the pier. Looks like a bunch of SFV sailors.

This is a classic example of how not to sail off of a lee shore.

No Main and the jib, wind and wave pushing the bow down.

Please everyone remember a sailboat pivots on the keel.

 

 

If I were an Insurance adjuster, I would call negligence on the skippers part.

What is your point? Negligence is not a coverage exclusion for property damage - that is why you buy insurance, in case you f up.

 

 

A guy I know had his rig come tumbling down.

 

When he talked to the adjuster, he told the adjuster it was equipment failure. The adjuster said "no it was operator error". The owner implored it was equipment failure. The adjuster said again "no, it was operator error". This went back and forth a few times times until the lights went on in the owner's head - the owner then said "yes, it was operator error".

 

If it had been equipment failure, he would not have been covered. But because it was "operator error", he got his new mast.

 

At least this is the story the owner told me.

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Here is an 8 minute video showing what the skipper did wrong. Make sure you go full screen.

It's pretty obvious they had problems ( or bad calls) way before the pier. Looks like a bunch of SFV sailors.

This is a classic example of how not to sail off of a lee shore.

No Main and the jib, wind and wave pushing the bow down.

Please everyone remember a sailboat pivots on the keel.

 

 

If I were an Insurance adjuster, I would call negligence on the skippers part.

You would be sued so quickly it would make you pivot around your 1 brain cell and then get you released from further insurance adjustment work .

 

Pretty evident at the beginning of the vid, that they were not under power, nor had a jib unfurled and the main at boom level. Indicating a potential failure of the main halyard.

 

Also, that the Martin 242 can be sailed easily under mainsail only, should not stop you from pontificating on a subject of which you clearly have little knowledge.

You must be blind. The jib is clearly unfurled and luffing at the beginning of the video. It's pure speculation the main halyard broke...we don't know why the main is down. The boat is heading to the left, which appears to be a safe direction. They're well to windward of the pier, and look to be able to clear it and head towards deeper water. They never get the jib sorted out, but jibe around onto a course that heads towards being embayed...they can't get out unless they get the boat moving. They never get the jib trimmed. Skipper is holding the tiller hard to leeward...they are essentially hove-to, drifting sideways. No-one makes an effort to get out the anchor (if carried). The two crew in cockpit just sit there.

Now, I agree it's not negligence. We don't know the full story, but the video appears to indicate they didn't know what they were doing. At no time does it show a good decision being made...quite the opposite, in fact. We'll have to see what their story is, but the video is what it is.

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and estimate that Da burg is nowhere near a Martin242 fleet or Santa Monica Bay. Also, that there is no way one could say that jib is unfurled at the beginning of the vid. Unfurling maybe, but not unfurled. The reality of deploying an anchor on a 2,500 lb boat in 20TWS with a swell of considerable height, is, well.....Oh, and they are mandatory.

 

I could go into the whole, I've sailed on the SM bay for soo many years and I've raced Martin 242's for more years than I care to remember, but really, "That would be a waste of time"!

 

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Here is an 8 minute video showing what the skipper did wrong. Make sure you go full screen.

It's pretty obvious they had problems ( or bad calls) way before the pier. Looks like a bunch of SFV sailors.

This is a classic example of how not to sail off of a lee shore.

No Main and the jib, wind and wave pushing the bow down.

Please everyone remember a sailboat pivots on the keel.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdYTGre3fAA

 

If I were an Insurance adjuster, I would call negligence on the skippers part.

You would be sued so quickly it would make you pivot around your 1 brain cell and then get you released from further insurance adjustment work .

 

Pretty evident at the beginning of the vid, that they were not under power, nor had a jib unfurled and the main at boom level. Indicating a potential failure of the main halyard.

 

Also, that the Martin 242 can be sailed easily under mainsail only, should not stop you from pontificating on a subject of which you clearly have little knowledge.

You must be blind. The jib is clearly unfurled and luffing at the beginning of the video. It's pure speculation the main halyard broke...we don't know why the main is down. The boat is heading to the left, which appears to be a safe direction. They're well to windward of the pier, and look to be able to clear it and head towards deeper water. They never get the jib sorted out, but jibe around onto a course that heads towards being embayed...they can't get out unless they get the boat moving. They never get the jib trimmed. Skipper is holding the tiller hard to leeward...they are essentially hove-to, drifting sideways. No-one makes an effort to get out the anchor (if carried). The two crew in cockpit just sit there.

Now, I agree it's not negligence. We don't know the full story, but the video appears to indicate they didn't know what they were doing. At no time does it show a good decision being made...quite the opposite, in fact. We'll have to see what their story is, but the video is what it is.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and estimate that Da burg is nowhere near a Martin242 fleet or Santa Monica Bay. Also, that there is no way one could say that jib is unfurled at the beginning of the vid. Unfurling maybe, but not unfurled. The reality of deploying an anchor on a 2,500 lb boat in 20TWS with a swell of considerable height, is, well.....Oh, and they are mandatory.

 

I could go into the whole, I've sailed on the SM bay for soo many years and I've raced Martin 242's for more years than I care to remember, but really, "That would be a waste of time"!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdkW64SSI-4

Haven't sailed a 242 that I recall.

I built this:

16665791_10155089053781579_4264153936544

And a few others. Want pics of them too?

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Vee : RKoch is a really good dude. Always helpful, very experienced. He lives on the other coast, may not have sailed in Santa Monica bay, but that doesn't invalidate his observations. Has lots of experience with this size boat, and plenty of others. After reading his stuff for years, pretty sure he's a guy I want on my boat.

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Vee : RKoch is a really good dude. Always helpful, very experienced. He lives on the other coast, may not have sailed in Santa Monica bay, but that doesn't invalidate his observations. Has lots of experience with this size boat, and plenty of others. After reading his stuff for years, pretty sure he's a guy I want on my boat.

^^ Plus many.

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insurance is going to cover it.

 

If you look at the video carefully it appears that the jib is flapping wildly to leeward and that when they jibe the jib actually rotates around the front of the forestay effectively making the previously lazy sheet still the lazy sheet. At least it appears that the clew of the jib is well forward and fairly high up on the forestay which would indicate a forestay wrap.

 

I think that's what the guy up on the leeward rail is doing: he is switching out the sheets so they can sheet in. At least it appears that they first try to sheet in properly but perhaps because the angles of effort are too acute or perhaps because one of the jib battens catches on the forestay (been there, done that, haven't we all?) they decide to use the lazy sheet instead of the leeward sheet to attempt to sheet in.

 

But it takes too long to reroute the sheets and they end up going into the pier.

 

At 59 seconds you can also see the guy on the leeward rail lose his hat into the water.

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I'm impressed that the crew were wearing PFD's, I suspect a lot of us complacent SoCal sailors might not have been. But I shudder to think what that would have looked like if those guys had been tethered.

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At about 2:09 of the full length version, or right before the catastrophic wave, isn't that the head of the main blowing out of the cockpit with halyard attached?

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insurance is going to cover it.

 

If you look at the video carefully it appears that the jib is flapping wildly to leeward and that when they jibe the jib actually rotates around the front of the forestay effectively making the previously lazy sheet still the lazy sheet. At least it appears that the clew of the jib is well forward and fairly high up on the forestay which would indicate a forestay wrap.

 

I think that's what the guy up on the leeward rail is doing: he is switching out the sheets so they can sheet in. At least it appears that they first try to sheet in properly but perhaps because the angles of effort are too acute or perhaps because one of the jib battens catches on the forestay (been there, done that, haven't we all?) they decide to use the lazy sheet instead of the leeward sheet to attempt to sheet in.

 

But it takes too long to reroute the sheets and they end up going into the pier.

 

At 59 seconds you can also see the guy on the leeward rail lose his hat into the water.

^^ all that

And yes there's probably an anchor down below somewhere and maybe an outboard on the floor (who's going to do the motor dance for the 20 minute trip from the hoist to the starting area for a beer can when the breeze is on? Not me), but I bet they thought they'd sheet in the jib and pull it off until about 2 seconds before the wave rolls them. It's a beer can in King Harbor-not a high alert event. Could have been me, could have been many of us I bet.

 

By the way insurance covers negligence. That what it's for. In fact there are few things that it covers that aren't negligence.

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Vee : RKoch is a really good dude. Always helpful, very experienced. He lives on the other coast, may not have sailed in Santa Monica bay, but that doesn't invalidate his observations. Has lots of experience with this size boat, and plenty of others. After reading his stuff for years, pretty sure he's a guy I want on my boat.

 

^^ Plus many.

Agreed.

 

I'll give two cents from the armchair though.

 

Once inside the surf line an anchor won't help...maybe if they could make way and get headed back out away from the pier an anchor could help until they sorted things out.

 

Looks like only about a minute or two of critical decision making (or lack of...but I wasn't there) which feels slower on video than the heat of the action. Very first priority is to get one guy cutting the override/wrapped jib sheet and trying like hell to get another line on it. Simultaneous priority is to get something, if anything, on the main. If the main halyard is stuck, what about topping lift. Is there any way to get even a tiny amount of main and get moving (left to right on screen) away from the pier as last ditch?

 

Looking at the chart, that looks like not a lot of margin for error but from the video it's not possible to know at what point the problems began. If problems began early stay as far away as possible before attempting to enter the inlet.

 

Failing that, as others have mentioned...maybe abandon a little earlier?

 

As for the main or jib only handling characteristics in heavy weather every boat is different...havn't sailed this particular boat and some of you guys have, but looks like that any jib, if they could've got it under control...would yield 2 possibilities...1) beam reach away from the pier 2) put the boat on its ear and pinch for minimal headway under jib only.

 

That said, once inside the surf line it's game over.

 

Glad everyone's OK!!

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Vee : RKoch is a really good dude. Always helpful, very experienced. He lives on the other coast, may not have sailed in Santa Monica bay, but that doesn't invalidate his observations. Has lots of experience with this size boat, and plenty of others. After reading his stuff for years, pretty sure he's a guy I want on my boat.

^^ Plus many.

Agreed.

I'll give two cents from the armchair though.

Once inside the surf line an anchor won't help...maybe if they could make way and get headed back out away from the pier an anchor could help until they sorted things out.

Looks like only about a minute or two of critical decision making (or lack of...but I wasn't there) which feels slower on video than the heat of the action. Very first priority is to get one guy cutting the override/wrapped jib sheet and trying like hell to get another line on it. Simultaneous priority is to get something, if anything, on the main. If the main halyard is stuck, what about topping lift. Is there any way to get even a tiny amount of main and get moving (left to right on screen) away from the pier as last ditch?

Looking at the chart, that looks like not a lot of margin for error but from the video it's not possible to know at what point the problems began. If problems began early stay as far away as possible before attempting to enter the inlet.

Failing that, as others have mentioned...maybe abandon a little earlier?

As for the main or jib only handling characteristics in heavy weather every boat is different...havn't sailed this particular boat and some of you guys have, but looks like that any jib, if they could've got it under control...would yield 2 possibilities...1) beam reach away from the pier 2) put the boat on its ear and pinch for minimal headway under jib only.

That said, once inside the surf line it's game over.

Glad everyone's OK!!

Main or jib only, yes boats are different but still most often the main is centered on the boat, meaning stability. But the main is also more expensive and we often decide to spare it - given that we don't think we are in danger...

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Sails for 24' boat...$5k...last one and a half seasons

 

Outboard- $1k lasts forever

 

Why use sails when not racing? It's just a waste

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Vee : RKoch is a really good dude. Always helpful, very experienced. He lives on the other coast, may not have sailed in Santa Monica bay, but that doesn't invalidate his observations. Has lots of experience with this size boat, and plenty of others. After reading his stuff for years, pretty sure he's a guy I want on my boat.

^^ Plus many.

Agreed.

I'll give two cents from the armchair though.

Once inside the surf line an anchor won't help...maybe if they could make way and get headed back out away from the pier an anchor could help until they sorted things out.

Looks like only about a minute or two of critical decision making (or lack of...but I wasn't there) which feels slower on video than the heat of the action. Very first priority is to get one guy cutting the override/wrapped jib sheet and trying like hell to get another line on it. Simultaneous priority is to get something, if anything, on the main. If the main halyard is stuck, what about topping lift. Is there any way to get even a tiny amount of main and get moving (left to right on screen) away from the pier as last ditch?

Looking at the chart, that looks like not a lot of margin for error but from the video it's not possible to know at what point the problems began. If problems began early stay as far away as possible before attempting to enter the inlet.

Failing that, as others have mentioned...maybe abandon a little earlier?

As for the main or jib only handling characteristics in heavy weather every boat is different...havn't sailed this particular boat and some of you guys have, but looks like that any jib, if they could've got it under control...would yield 2 possibilities...1) beam reach away from the pier 2) put the boat on its ear and pinch for minimal headway under jib only.

That said, once inside the surf line it's game over.

Glad everyone's OK!!

Main or jib only, yes boats are different but still most often the main is centered on the boat, meaning stability. But the main is also more expensive and we often decide to spare it - given that we don't think we are in danger...

Yes. Personally, I prefer main only to jib only if it comes to that in high winds. (Probably good to distinguish between fractional/Genoa setups for this point) I've been forced on one occasion to tack out of a channel with disabled main and no engine and minimal jib(20kntplus). Difficult and very exhausting(was singlehanded)but doable...though no surf like this situation.

 

One other possibility from the armchair. If a crew can manually lash the headboard of the main to the mast even a few feet above the gooseneck...you've got the makings of a storm sail. Lash the rest of the sail to the boom and you've got a small amount of stability/power before the sail floggs itself to death. Easier said than done though.

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I was involved in investigating airplane accidents years ago and some interesting lessons were;

 

1. If you ask a non-involved pilot what the cause of the accident was, they usually say pilot error. What I came to realize was that every pilot wants/needs to believe that if they were in that situation they could have survived and avoided the accident. If a pilot believes there was no pilot error, then if they were in that same situation they would have died too. Consequently, everyone wants to believe they could/would have done something different that would have changed the outcome because to believe otherwise causes a person to believe that there are some situations that are completely out of your control.

 

2. Very few pilots will willingly sacrifice their aircraft to save their life or others when making spit second decisions. It seemed like many pilots making decisions under pressure make decisions that involve trying to save the airplane and lives even if it would be less risky to sacrifice the airplane to save lives. There is a decision bias to try to save the airplane when on reflection it would have been wiser to focus on saving lives not property.

 

3. Contemplating the various options must be done well in advance of the time to take action. It is impossible to make decisions at the moment action is necessary. When action is necessary, there is no time to contemplate the various options and potential outcomes. Rational thought and decision making must be made before action is necessary. It requires a person to look ahead so options can be contemplated and decisions made before action is required. I remember one accident when an airplane engine was failing and the pilot made a last second decision to attempt a downwind landing. The pilot, under stress, made a decision based on emotion and it turned out poorly.

 

4. It is hard to not to turn toward what your heart is telling you is safety when rational thought tells you that you need to turn away from what your emotions tell you to do. In this case, it was very windy, the sails were f'ed, and they were thinking I just want to go home. The heart wants to go home, rational thought tells you that you should avoid a lee shore especially when your means of power is compromised.

 

The lessons I learned from aircraft accident investigations seem to apply here.

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Ship 'O

 

These are some great points.

 

I find myself asking 'how many commercial pilots have had to ditch a plane before'. What is the price of experience? Would an experienced bush pilot or war time pilot compare to a commercial co-pilot w/ 400 hours of automated flight time?

 

When I get on a flight and the Captain gives a little welcome...I'm hoping he's that Sulley guy who had the presence of mind/experience/and calmness under pressure to land me on the Hudson and get me to my meeting on time.

 

There is no substitute for experience when trying to avoid a fuck up. This necessitates fucking up w/o dying a few times. That's the hard part of the equation, I guess.

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