Couta

ASBA Nationals.

Recommended Posts

Any Anarchists heading to Ports Stephens next weekend for the ASBA Nats? It's looking like a great line up - and Team Box get to try out the optimised and canted Magic for the first time......go the Puddin!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was a good regatta with a good turnout. R Speedwagon sailed well to win over a variety of conditions and tides. What was apparent though is the difficulty of rating such varied boats., the failings of the SMS measurement system were made pretty clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great location and conditions- the handicapping has a long way to go, but to be honest, you will struggle when there are so many very different styles of boat in a single division- boat weights varied from 340kg to 1.3 tonne with crew numbers fron 2 to 6. That said - park the ego and enjoy the close starts and top mark roundings with plenty of boats crossing tacks! The 10 race short course format worked well, with 9 races completed and probably 14 starts (the black flag even got a a airing). Sports Boat racing can grow much bigger pretty quickly with the right attitude- personally I'd forget about the overall result - put on some beer bets with the boats that you'll figure out are about your pace (regardless of official handicaps), grab some mates and enjoy some great racing I top locations - thanks again to all who made this event happen - definitely worth the trip up from Melbourne! And a suggestion for what it's worth - let's get some more social interaction over a post race beer - with footage from that drone - every race!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said.^^ Maybe 1 fleet 2 handicaps, sms and pbh? But with the pbh it stays with the boat from event to event. Might work?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And what's the 1.3 tonne porker?

Aptly named "Puddin" - highly modified Magic 25, with turbo rig, canter and canard......very cool boat!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vipers are also 340kg. Puddin must be only sport boat in AUS with a laid teak deck. Nice looking boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About time sportboats were separated into one design SB without modifications and Modified/Arms Race SB

One design defined by 3 or more identical class boats built.

Reason. There are a lot of one design SB's sitting in paddocks because owners are sick and tired of arms racers.

Change must happen. 5 boats on the start line at Geelong is pathetic.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Don said:

About time sportboats were separated into one design SB without modifications and Modified/Arms Race SB

One design defined by 3 or more identical class boats built.

Reason. There are a lot of one design SB's sitting in paddocks because owners are sick and tired of arms racers.

Change must happen. 5 boats on the start line at Geelong is pathetic.

The issue is the rating system and lack of leadership in the Class. No one is buying into the fleet and no one is upgrading.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, MelbourneA31 said:

The issue is the rating system and lack of leadership in the Class. No one is buying into the fleet and no one is upgrading.

Agreed - but i'd add that the issue is the lack of "fun factor" - the social interaction that makes the effort of turning up at an event worthwhile. I commented earlier in this thread that the handicapping is never gunna work, but that isn't the main thing. If going fast in overpowered sports boats is your thing, then do it for the fun, for the camaraderie, for shits 'n giggles and the stories. If you want serious racing, do as Don suggests....get into one design.

The problem with the SB division is that it takes itself too seriously.....the essence of SB sailing is FUN. Right now there's too little of that happening to attract the numbers.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don, read our Facebook page, ASBA have introduced a CBH division to accomodate/encourage the one design boats. Amendment to NoR has been posted. It will be a race within a race

A31, rating system we are stuck with until someone comes up with another or the association members vote it out. All members have the opportunity. Write up what you want and it can be put to the members/published. 

Couta,  couldn't agree more. We would welcome someone to step up and organise more social interaction. When all the organising falls back on 2 people there is a limit to what we can do. The regatta organisers will assist and the host club will accomodate - just someone has to do it and the ASBA committee can't if we have to do the racing too.

let us know, info@asba.org.au

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Christopher B said:

Don, read our Facebook page, ASBA have introduced a CBH division to accomodate/encourage the one design boats. Amendment to NoR has been posted. It will be a race within a race

A31, rating system we are stuck with until someone comes up with another or the association members vote it out. All members have the opportunity. Write up what you want and it can be put to the members/published. 

Couta,  couldn't agree more. We would welcome someone to step up and organise more social interaction. When all the organising falls back on 2 people there is a limit to what we can do. The regatta organisers will assist and the host club will accomodate - just someone has to do it and the ASBA committee can't if we have to do the racing too.

let us know, info@asba.org.au

 

Chris, there is no accountability in the rating system. Would you care to explain to me how the rating of the Thompson 8 went down prior to the Nationals on Sydney Harbour and then went back to where it was once the boat was sold. The only difference was the boat went across the Nullabor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/02/2018 at 8:34 AM, MelbourneA31 said:

Chris, there is no accountability in the rating system. Would you care to explain to me how the rating of the Thompson 8 went down prior to the Nationals on Sydney Harbour and then went back to where it was once the boat was sold. The only difference was the boat went across the Nullabor.

Oh I've been asking that question for years, as have the owners, I have even asked for this series of events to be corrected in the results for the regattas competed in under the alleged number, and a bunch of other boats! Now there is a new wave of shify competitors who want their names in lights at the associations and fleets expense! 

 

Was a great concept! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/24/2018 at 9:06 PM, Christopher B said:

Don, read our Facebook page, ASBA have introduced a CBH division to accomodate/encourage the one design boats. Amendment to NoR has been posted. It will be a race within a race

A31, rating system we are stuck with until someone comes up with another or the association members vote it out. All members have the opportunity. Write up what you want and it can be put to the members/published. 

Couta,  couldn't agree more. We would welcome someone to step up and organise more social interaction. When all the organising falls back on 2 people there is a limit to what we can do. The regatta organisers will assist and the host club will accomodate - just someone has to do it and the ASBA committee can't if we have to do the racing too.

let us know, info@asba.org.au

 

A lot of the trailer sailer regs appear to require a minimum of two berths downstairs. And other such fuckeries. Unless I have mis-read the YA/AS guidelines. Many of the OD boats - older and more recent, will never fulfill that requirement. Even if they can be launched from their trailers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One design boats were never concerned about fitting the cbh guidelines. Which were based off the cat 5 regs of the day from memory, but a group of sailors assigned the M24's a CBH for I think the 2004 sportboat nationals (which incidently is still the same today) at Airlie Beach so would depend id say on what safety cat was sailed and weather the atysba (or what ever they are called)  rules were abided by! 

Beats me why the asba never put the weights on the SMS guys to sort their shit, the fleets have gone, the issues have been there since I think the 2008 revals, but they won't listen! Hundreds of races of data, over years, and re calcs has been sent to them showing where the discrepancies are but due to a few issues within asba and the SMS ménage a trois mob its been let go too long!

 

Just don't fuck the cbh fleets as well please! Those numbers have been sorted over thousands of races and still work well today!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 22/02/2018 at 5:01 PM, Don said:

About time sportboats were separated into one design SB without modifications and Modified/Arms Race SB

One design defined by 3 or more identical class boats built.

Reason. There are a lot of one design SB's sitting in paddocks because owners are sick and tired of arms racers.

Change must happen. 5 boats on the start line at Geelong is pathetic.

Nissan GTR comes to mind. Godzilla. Destroyed touring car racing in this country, and we ended up with yawn inducing blue versus red for a decade or more. Identical class boats... five built, sounds like a place to reset.. Ie. One design/hard number, as a start point/corum, and go from there. You are on the right track Don. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or how about, not let self interest types dictate which direction an association heads at the detriment of the entire fleet! Then you are stuck with a less than honourable attention whore promoting the dead horse with his ideals!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, richiec said:

Nissan GTR comes to mind. Godzilla. Destroyed touring car racing in this country, and we ended up with yawn inducing blue versus red for a decade or more. Identical class boats... five built, sounds like a place to reset.. Ie. One design/hard number, as a start point/corum, and go from there. You are on the right track Don. 

sport boats have always been about development and home builds. many would argue the introduction of class boats is whats turned the numbers down for the ASBA fleet. 

Personally I love seeing all the different ideas people come up with and modify there boats to there liking. the only issue we've had was been the inconsistency in the measurement and ratings (normally from the measurements taken) 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 08/03/2018 at 10:29 AM, Ricky Bobby said:

sport boats have always been about development and home builds. many would argue the introduction of class boats is whats turned the numbers down for the ASBA fleet. 

Personally I love seeing all the different ideas people come up with and modify there boats to there liking. the only issue we've had was been the inconsistency in the measurement and ratings (normally from the measurements taken) 

You have a good point, but I would suggest that trailer sailers were all about development and home build e.g. Hartley 16s, Usuals, etc. So this is not a sportsboat only issue, but one of progress.

I believe the answer is not to allow progress to disenfranchise people who do not want to, or cannot, develop trailerable boats, which sportsboats are a sub category of.

Also, let's be perfectly honest regarding the reason the name "sportsboat" was coined many years ago...that is because sailors of these boats did not want to be associated with trailer-sailers.

So to move on. Those that want to keep developing new boats and/or modifying their current boat from the original design for the purpose of increasing speed and/or decreasing rating cannot expect the majority of owners to continue "racing" against them, and enjoying it!  So, all "one of" boats and modified designs should be placed in the division they actually belong in, Development, I have a liking for the name "Evolution sportboat" or Evo sportboat

All other sportsboats meeting the "one design" criteria which we as an association need to decide on e.g. 5 boats built to the same design including rigs, all race in the the Fixed Design sportboat division.

Thoughts everyone, anyone?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to be perfectly clear as an example, if you want to hoist a huge fuck-off square top main on a Boatspeed 23 for a particular race, don't expect to be in the fixed design division, and don't expect your "design" rating to be applied to the race results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/16/2018 at 10:23 AM, Don said:

Just to be perfectly clear as an example, if you want to hoist a huge fuck-off square top main on a Boatspeed 23 for a particular race, don't expect to be in the fixed design division, and don't expect your "design" rating to be applied to the race results.

You can do that but the rating penalty wouldn't be worth it.

I think that you are trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The production boats such as Shaw 650's and Viper 640's were very competitive in the ASBA fleet whenever the breeze was above ten knots. Less than that and the Thompson 8 or the Raptor (a one off) came into their own.

Owners are no longer travelling to ASBA events because the rating system makes changes for no apparent reason. From my own perspective, it is not worth putting wear and tear on my boat or paying travel expenses when the entry numbers are so low and there is no accountability on the part of the people who run the measurement rule.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone actually run the measurement rule? I can't get a response to a simple question via email, about changing a boat name! Hello - is there anybody out there? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I notice the Division D, 1st and 3rd definitely and possibly 2nd place getters on CBH in the latest Marley Point race had incorrect handicaps. The Boatspeed 23 (1st) has no official CBH as a standard boat and was sailing with a non-standard mainsail , the Leech 750 (3rd) has no official CBH, and the Thompson 8 (2nd) used a modified mainsail but scored on her official standard CBH.

It does not matter what your rating is if you are allowed to cheat. Reminds me of the Channel Handicapping debacle from years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Don said:

I notice the Division D, 1st and 3rd definitely and possibly 2nd place getters on CBH in the latest Marley Point race had incorrect handicaps. The Boatspeed 23 (1st) has no official CBH as a standard boat and was sailing with a non-standard mainsail , the Leech 750 (3rd) has no official CBH, and the Thompson 8 (2nd) used a modified mainsail but scored on her official standard CBH.

It does not matter what your rating is if you are allowed to cheat. Reminds me of the Channel Handicapping debacle from years ago.

Don, 

 

May I ask what you are basing this these claims on ? 

 

After all it seems that you are calling into question the owners or handicapper’s  integrity on these results.  I can tell you that the owner of the Leech plays by the rules. You also need to remember that just because a boat doesn’t have a CHB in Vic it still may have a CBH in other states that you don’t know about and this is what may have been used.

 

I’ve seen some handicappers take a CBH and adjust it 1 or 2 %  from standard when bigger gear is being used when it should be adjusted 5-10 %. I remember a blazer 23 using a Noelex 30 kite and only cop a 2 in 100 increase in handicap. 

 

Pulpit

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good point. I sailed the race.

Regarding ratings, I am using the latest published National CBH listing. If the listing is out of date, why is that? Isn't this what we pay Australian Sailing our money for? To keep registers up to date for one thing. As I am in the information technology business, I know exactly how long it takes to modify information in public and private databases. For those that do not know, less than the time it takes to grind your coffee beans in the morning.

So as far as the official listings are concerned the Leech 750 has no CBH.

As for the Boatspeed 23 with no listed CBH, the mainsail used in the race had a square head almost as long as the E measurement, obviously not to boat design specs.

The Thompson 8 design uses a single backstay with no square head mainsail, Rush had twin running backstays and a square head main. That is not to design, yet her listed CBH applied in the race was the design rating.

It does not matter what rating system is used, the abuse starts with the owners. They know full well what they are doing, if there is no listed rating, there can be no rating result for that boat in that race. If the design rating does not alter when obvious modifications are made which we all know would alter the listed rating, that is cheating.

Yes all they have to do is declare, there is also a responsibility on the race organizers to ensure the competitors are notified of the declaration, if it exits.

These are simple things, based on an honor system, if they are abused that is cheating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Just to be perfectly clear as an example, if you want to hoist a huge fuck-off square top main on a Boatspeed 23 for a particular race, don't expect to be in the fixed design division, and don't expect your "design" rating to be applied to the race results.

You got me confused, the topic is ASBA Nationals and you are pulling examples from a measurement rule that is used by the Trailable Yacht fleet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gather that "sportboat" sailors are not happy with their ratings whether its SMS or CBH, does that not affect the ASBA Nationals? For instance regarding number of potential participants etc?

Also, sports boats are a sub-category of the Trailable Yacht fleet, so CBH does apply according to Australian Sailing;

"The objective of the Australian Trailable Yacht and Sports Boat Rule (ATYSBR), hereinafter called “the Rule”, is to provide a national system for even and fair racing on handicap in a mixed fleet of trailable yachts and/or sports boats, resulting in racing success being primarily determined by the skills of the crew.

The Rule will also provide a basis for the conduct of national and state-level championships for trailable yachts and sports boats, as well as for club and other events."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

I gather that "sportboat" sailors are not happy with their ratings whether its SMS or CBH, does that not affect the ASBA Nationals? For instance regarding number of potential participants etc?

Also, sports boats are a sub-category of the Trailable Yacht fleet, so CBH does apply according to Australian Sailing;

"The objective of the Australian Trailable Yacht and Sports Boat Rule (ATYSBR), hereinafter called “the Rule”, is to provide a national system for even and fair racing on handicap in a mixed fleet of trailable yachts and/or sports boats, resulting in racing success being primarily determined by the skills of the crew.

The Rule will also provide a basis for the conduct of national and state-level championships for trailable yachts and sports boats, as well as for club and other events."

 

Very few, if any, of the ASBA fleet race under the Australian Trailable Yacht and Sportsboat Rule. I certainly didn't buy a Shaw 650 with the intention of racing against Noelex's and Castle 650's.

The issue with SMS/AMS from my perspective is that ratings go up and down for no apparent reason. Adams 10's and the Thompson 8 being perfect examples. This proves that we are not getting a measurement system at all but an advanced form of PHS. I'm not interested in racing under a system where the results are manipulated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Guys... For a while I was in the unique position of having both an SMS and CBH for my  modified Spider 22 Bob Sled which like the old Bakers Dough ( which is now in Sydney and raced Super 30's in the Sydney Harbour Regatta recently.  Bob Sled and Bakers Dough carry an Articulating Bow Sprit and Assy Kites. All was good for a couple of years, I did some Sports Boat events under SMS and some Trailer Boat Races such as Bay to Bay and Surf to City under CBH. Unfortunately the powers that Bee who administer the CBH rule from Melbourne decided that I could not retain my CBH since I did not race sufficiently under CBH to confirm it. I only use Bob Sled for these fun races in Qld , as I have my FT10 in Sydney. I suspect that any Sports Boat that is not Class Standard and so capable of using the Class CBH will have the same problem  that I have in maintaining a CBH. 

In my opinion the CBH guys are their own worse enemies. They should be encouraging boats and boat owners not getting in the way of people having fun. I still have an SMS so can enter most races such as Marley point , Surf to City, Bay to Bay etc as a sports boat, but can not compete under CBH. At lest in the Bay to Bay they provide a PBH ( Personal Boat Handicap ie. based on PHS ) so that boats like Bob Sled and lots of other one of a kinds to compete. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Good point. I sailed the race.

Regarding ratings, I am using the latest published National CBH listing. If the listing is out of date, why is that? Isn't this what we pay Australian Sailing our money for? To keep registers up to date for one thing. As I am in the information technology business, I know exactly how long it takes to modify information in public and private databases. For those that do not know, less than the time it takes to grind your coffee beans in the morning.

So as far as the official listings are concerned the Leech 750 has no CBH.

As for the Boatspeed 23 with no listed CBH, the mainsail used in the race had a square head almost as long as the E measurement, obviously not to boat design specs.

The Thompson 8 design uses a single backstay with no square head mainsail, Rush had twin running backstays and a square head main. That is not to design, yet her listed CBH applied in the race was the design rating.

It does not matter what rating system is used, the abuse starts with the owners. They know full well what they are doing, if there is no listed rating, there can be no rating result for that boat in that race. If the design rating does not alter when obvious modifications are made which we all know would alter the listed rating, that is cheating.

Yes all they have to do is declare, there is also a responsibility on the race organizers to ensure the competitors are notified of the declaration, if it exits.

These are simple things, based on an honor system, if they are abused that is cheating.

Hey Don,

 

A little more information on the leech 750 and their handicap. I was talking to the owner tonight at our club. He told me that he not only gave the handicapper his SMS handicap as well as results from major regattas that he has sailed in the last 12 months. He also said that he gave the handicapper our club handicap results as well. At our club we have Elliott 5.9’s, 7’s, blazer 23’s and other class trailer sailors and the handicapper told him he that he didn’t need them to set his rating for the race. 

 

So it’s not always the owners that are abusing the system, it’s the handicappers get it wrong some times as well.

 

also, I’m told that CBH handicaps don’t like sports boats  with short fordecks under there rules and that is why some sports boats don’t have CBH’s.

 

pulpit 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Hey Don,

 

A little more information on the leech 750 and their handicap. I was talking to the owner tonight at our club. He told me that he not only gave the handicapper his SMS handicap as well as results from major regattas that he has sailed in the last 12 months. He also said that he gave the handicapper our club handicap results as well. At our club we have Elliott 5.9’s, 7’s, blazer 23’s and other class trailer sailors and the handicapper told him he that he didn’t need them to set his rating for the race. 

 

So it’s not always the owners that are abusing the system, it’s the handicappers get it wrong some times as well.

 

also, I’m told that CBH handicaps don’t like sports boats  with short fordecks under there rules and that is why some sports boats don’t have CBH’s.

 

pulpit 

That is correct. I haven't read it for a while but I recall that the Australian Trailable Yacht and Sportsboat Rule has a requirement around the position of the deck in relation to the centreboard case that the open sportsboats such as most of the ASBA fleet do not comply with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is magic, for so long there has been issues but if you spoke up you were ushered out!!!!

 

T8 you guys mentioned could very well be class, as the T7's sails were more a perimeter measurement than other measurements, they could be the same! Their cbh would be off the fastest one and they are all different in places! The T8's SMS rise came from towing it across the nullabor, that is all! Oh hang on, no it wasn', ask some questions of what happened there, its a cracker story! Its one of the nails needed to close the lid!

 

Cbh has type divisions, open I believ and the faster trailables, T's and E's etc, different rules! And I as well haven't seen many open cbh div boats with cbh's issued, as measurements etc still have to be sent in as well!

 

As for the "cheats" in SMS, I've approached the asba so many times to sort the issues out there, but they have done nothing! There is many results that should be changed up to national titles levels but they are too fucking scared to do it fearing fleet numbers will drop! Well, they can't  go much lower! 

 

Someone asked above if the sms guys are alive, well if you have the slightest concern over their rating system they cry, I've been asked up here in Brisbane to not go to ams/SMS info nights as I might ask questions asked above and why things arnt done! Don' ask the asba why they never pass on any type of calculations that have been done that shows where the SMS system goes wrong, unless your part of the 'in' crowd!!!

 

Please any of you sportboat guys out there, stay away from the cbh system, it works just fine for the boats it has been set up for!

 

Oh for the record, there has been a CBH div added to this years nationals, but the national titles will onlky be run under SMS!

 

Good luck guys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now