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Greyhound37

Jetty crash and loss of life

98 posts in this topic

This is not a tragedy at sea..They are fuckin idiots and coastal at that. Stop opening threads for morons like this and their offspring.

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Given that the boat was overturned at least a half mile away from the Jetty, I think that your assumptions may be premature.

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A Bavaria - which came first - the keel loss or the grounding?

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A Bavaria - which came first - the keel loss or the grounding?

 

Even for Bavarias keel dropping is rare. It does look like a classic entering gone wrong. Not enough facts, however. With the loss of lives maybe there should be some restraint on the blame game.

 

//J

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I know the translation is hard to read but:

From accounts of the investigators, the sailing boat is registered in Monfalcone, in the province of Gorizia, and was stationed in Marina di Ravenna where it would start, on Tuesday, at a time of Trapani for a transfer. On board there were 6 people including the owner all of Verona, surprised by the sudden storm at sea. Unable to face the storm, had asked shelter in Marina di Rimini and radio, motor, attempted to enter the port, but the waves, have made them go crashing against the rocks of the breakwater.

 

So it looks like the keel and rudder both broke off as a result of going up on the jetty. If you watch the video and then look at some of the other videos you can actually see the hull of the Bavaria upside down on top of the jetty so it must've been some pretty damn rough conditions.

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Jacksparrow: no need to insult and crucify a skipper that is already dead (together with his daughter and two friends of him), probably by his own mistake.

Italian news reports say that the yacht left Marina di Ravenna harbour in uncertain conditions. The boat had completed some refitting at a boatyard at the marina days before. That same day the boatyard manager was supposed to ferry a sailboat somewhere along the coast, but he quickly changed his mind when the first gusts hit . He then called the skipper of the accident boat, that had already set sail, to try and convince him to turn back. He answered that he was experiencing rather rough conditions but he expected the wind to abate in the next three hours so he was confortable to press on.

The skipper later contacted Rimini harbour, asking for a berth. He was relaxed and even joked with the harbour master, whom he had met in a previous occasion.

The sailboat was assigned a berth, and a man tasked with assisting the yacht in berthing followed its approach to the harbour entrance. He said that the vessel was proceeding without apparent problems and was about to enter when the engine stopped working. The crew then tried to raise a sail but a very steep 5 meter wave picked the boat and smashed it against the break water.

 

The day of the accident a low pressure system was rapidly transiting over northern Italy. Strong northerly winds had been forecast.

The yacht was heading south in what was a swift reach along the eastern coast of Italy, by all means a lee shore.

 

The “bora” north easterly wind is well known and respected by all those who sail the Adriatic sea . It can set suddenly with gusts reaching F11 that create a very short and steep sea.

Later that evening two ferry boats from Greece heaved to outside Ancona harbour for two hours waiting for the conditions to improve.

 

The skipper was a 68 year old retired professional. At least one of the crew, a 64 year old who also perished, was experienced, having just completed a RTW cruise on another boat.

Of the two survivors, one, a 39 year old man, was found unscathed inside the boat, the other, a 68 year old man, was picked from the water one hour later, hypotermic but is now rapidly recovering in hospital.

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here is the location

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0816326,12.568985,2193m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en&authuser=0

 

wind was NE

 

the boat is aground on the W end of the ~E-W running jetty towards the end of the big pier sticking out into the sea

Looks very shallow off that pier. I suspect they were just to weather of the shallows when the engine quit, bounced the boat off the bottom enough times to shear the keel off, and things went downhill from there. There but for the grace of (insert your diety here) go I. RIP to those lost.

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This is not a tragedy at sea..They are fuckin idiots and coastal at that. Stop opening threads for morons like this and their offspring.

 

 

jack, you really are a special kind of stupid.

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Sad no matter how it happened.

 

RIP

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it seems that the boat lost the keel before the impact against breakwater

\

How do you know that? Unless one of the survivors specifically said the keel came off before impact? Or are you just guessing?

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it seems that the boat lost the keel before the impact against breakwater

\

How do you know that? Unless one of the survivors specifically said the keel came off before impact? Or are you just guessing?

 

"Before" is elastic term. Maybe a "little before". The hull on the beginning of this video is not heavily damaged. What is your opinion?

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That's terrible. condolences to the families.

 

I'm so afraid of engine failure. By the sounds of it, it could not have happened at a worse time.

 

Just terrible.

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What ever happened to, the good seamanship of waiting for a better weather window ?

 

tragic........

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I remember leaving an inlet into some pretty scary looking waves. Leaving is the easy direction, just keep going. If the engine had failed at just the wrong moment........ :o

OTOH a friend, even with a working engine, managed to capsize trying to get into an inlet in bad weather in a powerboat. The CG was standing by to help and gave him a ride the rest of the way to the dock and his boat was eventually found washed up with not too much damage.

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I find it very callous when a tragedy is trivialized by those with superior knowledge and skills - there were lives lost and some of those people had no idea what was going to happen. My thoughts go to the family and friends of those who died.

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Not even sure about the superior part. It seems like everything would have been fine absent engine failure. Not saying it was the best idea either, but in the commercial world, running an inlet where engine failure would have bad effects is not exactly unknown.

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it seems that the boat lost the keel before the impact against breakwater

\

How do you know that? Unless one of the survivors specifically said the keel came off before impact? Or are you just guessing?

 

"Before" is elastic term. Maybe a "little before". The hull on the beginning of this video is not heavily damaged. What is your opinion?

 

So what you're saying is that because there is no heavy damage to the hull visible in that video that the hull must have lost the keel before it came in contact with the jetty?

That could be but I would suppose that they grounded heavily with the bottom immediately surrounding the jetty before the hull actually made contact with the jetty and that catastrophic grounding is what caused the keel to fall off.

I would also beg you to speculate on how the hull got up on top of the jetty with no visibly apparent damage - certainly there probably is damage but which damage is not visible perhaps because the aft starboard (wider) side of the hull is where contact was made with the jetty but once the boat flips over the video is mostly shooting the forward port side.

Another video shows the hull upside down on top of the jetty but neither you nor I would never speculate that they dismasted offshore and that is what caused them to hit the jetty. That would just be silly.

Think about the conditions capable of heaving that hull upside down on top of that jetty! Wow.

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Actually, there is a clip where the overturned hull sans keel and rig is lifted on the top of the breakwater with just one wave.

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Am I see this correctly? Looks like they cut a hole in the hull and freed someone trapped inside the hull after it was overturned on top of the jetty? If so, wow.

 

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This is not a tragedy at sea..They are fuckin idiots and coastal at that. Stop opening threads for morons like this and their offspring.

+100

Can't agree more

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This is not a tragedy at sea..They are fuckin idiots and coastal at that. Stop opening threads for morons like this and their offspring.

+100

Can't agree more

 

 

On one hand they clearly shouldn't have left (easy to say with hindsight) but on the other hand, I think many of us have been in a position where engine failure means loss of the boat.

 

If you lose the boat on rocks, it is a lottery, everybody might swim/walk away or some might get crushed/drowned etc...

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A comment, but without knowing the full picture....

 

I know that coast and the Adriatic very well. The Bora is an evil freezing-cold katabatic north-easter that sweeps down off the mountains of Slovenia and Croatia with short advanced warning. It lasts 24 or 36 hours or so, then stops. Steady winds over 100 knots are normal. I've seen it blow loaded shipping containers off a wharf.

 

Going to sea if those conditions are forecast is a bit iffy, to say the least.

 

My $0.02.

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I think it is important that we are reminded what can go wrong by reviewing these incidents. At the opening of each SAS seminar I have attended they start with reviewing significant losses from the previous year. In this case a dirty fuel filter could easily have been the weak leak that kicked off this unfortunate chain of events. The boat starts mixing up the fuel tank sludge in the rough seas and does not take long before the diesel is lacking fuel. Whatever the cause the reminder makes us all a little more vigilant.

 

Condolences to the families.

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This is not a tragedy at sea..They are fuckin idiots and coastal at that. Stop opening threads for morons like this and their offspring.

 

This is a really unhelpful and insensitive comment.

 

They made a mistake in trying to enter a harbour on a lee shore in bad conditions!

 

Their engine stopped!

 

Typical situation where one mistake, followed by a cockup compounded and a bad situation suddenly got much worse and turned to shit in a huge way.

They paid the ultimate price!!

 

Tell me you've never made a mistake and I'd say you've never been anywhere or done anything!

 

 

 

Tell me you'

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Re the Bora, Google search finds lots of images showing how evil this thing can get....

 

blog6-bora-adriatic-wind.jpg

 

20131111_bora.jpg

 

If there's even a hint that the meteo conditions, which are quite well known, will permit one of these things to start, you just stay put.

 

With double warps, and sails off. Just like prep for a hurricane.

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My condolences to the families that are affected. Given the comments here, I feel somebody should speak up. Terrorism is a tragedy. Gun violence is a tragedy. This particular accident was caused by a suicidal, murderous asshole. The skipper paid the price? And what about his son-in-law or his grandchildren, or his (ex) wife? What are they paying - respects? Bullshit.

The conversation here should be about the living and keeping them that way if facing similar conditions. If that's done in acerbic and unpleasant terms, well tough shit. It's not a disrespect for the dead. It's a wakeup call to the people who potentially don't take their safety and their crew's safety seriously enough.

You know there was probably words of respect and moderation on board that boat before 4 people lost their lives, when what there should have been was a fucking mutiny.

So - how many of us have been out on a daysailing on a 30~40 foot pleasure yacht without adequate storm gear? I'm guessing that's most of us. Putting aside the boneheaded choices that got them (or you) out there in the first place, what would you have done?

[ ] not enough sea room for a sea-anchor, even if they had one
[ ] not enough sea room to run downwind. NE gale was perpendicular to the coast
[ ] attempt to heaveto (... on a fin keel boat close to lee shore, not the wisest option)
motorsail to windward under reefed main, sliver of furled jib, or any combo thereof.
[C] attempt a broad reach parallel to the coast under reefed main
[A] combo of b & c to maintain searoom until reasonable window for port entry

Running for port just isn't on the damned list. Running for port under power without a scrap of sail up is doubly not on the goddamned list. If they left port with a damaged rig while under storm warning in the forecast, I'm sorry but it was a suicide run from the beginning. It really makes my blood boil. So again - for the sake of the living!

1) NO SAIL and NO MOTOR is NO CONTROL. Add that recipe to a lee shore and you're finished.
2) A sailboat auxiliary engine is just that: auxiliary. Trust it only at GRAVE and MORTAL fucking peril!

If the skipper is on a suicide mission, speak the fuck up. I don't care if it is your daddy, I don't care if it's your daddy's best friends. For fuck's sake say something.

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First off, my condolences.

 

Skol,

 

Thanks for saying what needs to be said...especially where the auxiliary is on the list of survival tools in a storm...at the bottom. Losing power from a deisel auxiliary in big waves is just a matter of time, probably more likely from air in the lines than dirty fuel, and first prize to anyone who can bleed their engine in these conditions. When are people gonna realize that...and go into any situation in advance with an early 2nd reef on the main...which should be at the top of the list.

 

...and also...no way these guys should be out there. Period.

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it seems that the boat lost the keel before the impact against breakwater

\

How do you know that? Unless one of the survivors specifically said the keel came off before impact? Or are you just guessing?

 

"Before" is elastic term. Maybe a "little before". The hull on the beginning of this video is not heavily damaged. What is your opinion?

 

So what you're saying is that because there is no heavy damage to the hull visible in that video that the hull must have lost the keel before it came in contact with the jetty?

That could be but I would suppose that they grounded heavily with the bottom immediately surrounding the jetty before the hull actually made contact with the jetty and that catastrophic grounding is what caused the keel to fall off.

I would also beg you to speculate on how the hull got up on top of the jetty with no visibly apparent damage - certainly there probably is damage but which damage is not visible perhaps because the aft starboard (wider) side of the hull is where contact was made with the jetty but once the boat flips over the video is mostly shooting the forward port side.

Another video shows the hull upside down on top of the jetty but neither you nor I would never speculate that they dismasted offshore and that is what caused them to hit the jetty. That would just be silly.

Think about the conditions capable of heaving that hull upside down on top of that jetty! Wow.

 

I can't speak to the specifics of what happened here, but Bavaria Yachts has a history of problems with keels falling off at inopportune times. Who knows where keel failure fits into the cascade of weather/poor judgement/engine failure/age related lack of agility/bad luck. It is a tragedy and our sympathies go out to the survivors and the victims' families. Also, trolling the dead skipper shows a distinct lack of class. RIP.

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My condolences to the families that are affected. Given the comments here, I feel somebody should speak up. Terrorism is a tragedy. Gun violence is a tragedy. This particular accident was caused by a suicidal, murderous asshole. The skipper paid the price? And what about his son-in-law or his grandchildren, or his (ex) wife? What are they paying - respects? Bullshit.

 

The conversation here should be about the living and keeping them that way if facing similar conditions. If that's done in acerbic and unpleasant terms, well tough shit. It's not a disrespect for the dead. It's a wakeup call to the people who potentially don't take their safety and their crew's safety seriously enough.

 

You know there was probably words of respect and moderation on board that boat before 4 people lost their lives, when what there should have been was a fucking mutiny.

 

So - how many of us have been out on a daysailing on a 30~40 foot pleasure yacht without adequate storm gear? I'm guessing that's most of us. Putting aside the boneheaded choices that got them (or you) out there in the first place, what would you have done?

 

[ ] not enough sea room for a sea-anchor, even if they had one

[ ] not enough sea room to run downwind. NE gale was perpendicular to the coast

[ ] attempt to heaveto (... on a fin keel boat close to lee shore, not the wisest option)

motorsail to windward under reefed main, sliver of furled jib, or any combo thereof.

[C] attempt a broad reach parallel to the coast under reefed main

[A] combo of b & c to maintain searoom until reasonable window for port entry

 

Running for port just isn't on the damned list. Running for port under power without a scrap of sail up is doubly not on the goddamned list. If they left port with a damaged rig while under storm warning in the forecast, I'm sorry but it was a suicide run from the beginning. It really makes my blood boil. So again - for the sake of the living!

 

1) NO SAIL and NO MOTOR is NO CONTROL. Add that recipe to a lee shore and you're finished.

2) A sailboat auxiliary engine is just that: auxiliary. Trust it only at GRAVE and MORTAL fucking peril!

 

If the skipper is on a suicide mission, speak the fuck up. I don't care if it is your daddy, I don't care if it's your daddy's best friends. For fuck's sake say something.

 

 

 

The obvious option IMHO (or at least the one I would try) is storm jib up and sail slowly (4 knots) more or less to windward (60º or even 70º AWA depending on waves and wind) until the wind changes direction or becomes manageable. At the first opportunity (wind shift or lull) go as far away from the coast as practical. Always keep some speed to lessen the risks of being rolled by a wave and if need be gybe instead of tacking.

 

As an alternative, if there is a windward coast not too far away with a good harbour, sail there if practical.

 

I suspect that there is some local wind acceleration happening, the sea may well be manageable offshore, in which case just sail the boat toward destination well clear of the coast and of shipping lanes with just enough sail area to have good steerage.

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Coming through a bar or running with a seaway through a narrow inlet in any boat not capable of travelling at the same speed as the waves gives me the shits.

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My condolences to the families that are affected. Given the comments here, I feel somebody should speak up. Terrorism is a tragedy. Gun violence is a tragedy. This particular accident was caused by a suicidal, murderous asshole. The skipper paid the price? And what about his son-in-law or his grandchildren, or his (ex) wife? What are they paying - respects? Bullshit.

 

 

 

 

db7d461dbca391ba3d9553a487a3f31ad03cccad

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Coming through a bar or running with a seaway through a narrow inlet in any boat not capable of travelling at the same speed as the waves gives me the shits.

 

+1

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Coming through a bar or running with a seaway through a narrow inlet in any boat not capable of travelling at the same speed as the waves gives me the shits.

Breaking bars and inlets carry a fairly high risk factor for sailboats. Same with lee shores. Best treated with a great deal of caution.

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trolling the dead skipper shows a distinct lack of class. RIP.

 

 

 

+1

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hmmmmm, this kind of weather is very bad. Even the Wof of Wallstreet lost his 167 feet yacht in this kind of weather in the Med. From Italy to Spain people were relocating there yachts for this storm last week. This Bav 50 wanted to get it to harboar because the weather wat getting even worse.

 

 

The waves were 17 feet and higher.

 

25 year ago I, in my early twenties, sailed with my sister to lee side of our lake IJssel tot the big bridge over there with the first 30, at the bridge we lost power because of a dirty filter, we just raised in time the main and missed on just a hairpin the big foots of the bridge and safed the boat and/or the mast, and struggled the miles back against the waves and the wind to the little fishing town. My sister did not sail ever again, she was done with it.

 

 

Since, I sail never, if possible, on the lee side of a lake/sea. If possible I do bridges with a main hoisted.

 

In my end thirties I had my 35 feeter in a (windsurf)town which was mostly leeside of the Lake. Also with a long jelly there. Very similar to the italian thing in this topic.

 

I changed the normal routine, now I always dropped the main on sea, and sailed with the genua/jib on and the motor standby into the harbour. It was the most safe way, later in the season more sailboats were doning the same way and even got compliments from a sailing magazine editor for th way I did. I am always prepared to lost power the last 25 years, even when docking I have lost of power in mind.

 

Loosing the lifes of four in this kind of situation makes me quiet.

 

Use our brains to make sailing safer, thats what we have to do.

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Mostly this is how things can start:

 

 

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I've been following SA for over 15 years, the vast majority of that time as a lurker. Each time there's a disaster and a thread about it, a whole bunch of Shirleys jump in and try to control the narrative with guilt, social graces, and a defense for the honor of people they've never met as if the victims were their next of kin. It's such bullshit. People reading this thread now and in the future need to discuss what went wrong and how to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

Trying to sugarcoat a string of bad decisions that led to a fatal outcome isn't an attack on the skipper - it's pointing out the sobering obvious that led to loss of life. How many people search around SA before chartering in the Med or around Croatia? Think about them.

So you Shirleys that want to diminish and suppress the fact that deaths on the skipper's hands could have been avoided, who want to hide behind something appearing like the benefit of a doubt when it's really a complete suspension of disbelief, who want to admonish straight talk with conscientious calls for class and respect and so on - well, you go on now, go on and gather up your skirts and walk away mad. You're still beautiful when you're angry, even if you don't make a lick of damned sense.

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<snip> I changed the normal routine, now I always dropped the main on sea, and sailed with the genua/jib on and the motor standby into the harbour. It was the most safe way, later in the season more sailboats were doning the same way and even got compliments from a sailing magazine editor for th way I did. I am always prepared to lost power the last 25 years, even when docking I have lost of power in mind.

</snip>

agree 110%. Just not the quiet part. Which sail depends on both the boat and the marina. In bigger marinas like Berkeley you've got room to sail behind the jetty and douse sail once inside. Most small craft sail into upwind berths. If you lose steerage on that side of the breakwater it's a calamity but not a disaster. I tend to favor dousing the jib / genoa, and leave the main reefed and sheeted tight to centerline and enter under power. If you lose the aux just trim the main and play the traveler. that happened to me at least 3 times that I can think of, thanks to an Atomic 4. On the other hand, a lot of marinas are built with no thought whatsoever given to prevailing winds, are packed in like sardines, and have no room to maneuver. It's a complete non-starter if the wind's up.

 

There's no way you should run a jetty with a sailboat under gale conditions. You're not a nordic tug with twin diesels, and waves get bigger and more unpredictable as the water gets thinner. Know the area you're cruising in and run for shelter in a cove you can heaveto in or a sheltered moorage area. Running marina inlets or river bars during bad weather is a no-go. If you're caught out there in a gale you're already neck deep in the shit. Even if you're ill-prepared you've still got options as long as you have sea room.

 

What kills me about this incident is that the boat seemed controlled and the crew relaxed at sea. The story begins by the skipper reporting that he's unable to cope with storm conditions and wants to run for port. A few hours later, they radio in for slip assignment still relaxed and joking. Overconfident in the auxiliary, and without a scrap of sail up, they run the entrance and lose power next to the jetty. What has not been confirmed is that status of the rig or the nature of the repairs that were being done to the boat. If they left in a bad forecast with a bad rig, it was a suicide run from the beginning. Don't do it.

 

 

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I've been following SA for over 15 years, the vast majority of that time as a lurker. Each time there's a disaster and a thread about it, a whole bunch of Shirleys jump in and try to control the narrative with guilt, social graces, and a defense for the honor of people they've never met as if the victims were their next of kin. It's such bullshit. People reading this thread now and in the future need to discuss what went wrong and how to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

 

Trying to sugarcoat a string of bad decisions that led to a fatal outcome isn't an attack on the skipper - it's pointing out the sobering obvious that led to loss of life. How many people search around SA before chartering in the Med or around Croatia? Think about them.

 

So you Shirleys that want to diminish and suppress the fact that deaths on the skipper's hands could have been avoided, who want to hide behind something appearing like the benefit of a doubt when it's really a complete suspension of disbelief, who want to admonish straight talk with conscientious calls for class and respect and so on - well, you go on now, go on and gather up your skirts and walk away mad. You're still beautiful when you're angry, even if you don't make a lick of damned sense.

I sincerely hope you never screw up on a boat, because we'll have a field day. 99.9% of us have done things on boats that could be deemed unsafe. Most of us have been lucky.

 

I'm not going to judge this guy. No doubt, mistakes were made, but we all do it.

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I've been following SA for over 15 years, the vast majority of that time as a lurker. Each time there's a disaster and a thread about it, a whole bunch of Shirleys jump in and try to control the narrative with guilt, social graces, and a defense for the honor of people they've never met as if the victims were their next of kin. It's such bullshit. People reading this thread now and in the future need to discuss what went wrong and how to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

 

Trying to sugarcoat a string of bad decisions that led to a fatal outcome isn't an attack on the skipper - it's pointing out the sobering obvious that led to loss of life. How many people search around SA before chartering in the Med or around Croatia? Think about them.

 

So you Shirleys that want to diminish and suppress the fact that deaths on the skipper's hands could have been avoided, who want to hide behind something appearing like the benefit of a doubt when it's really a complete suspension of disbelief, who want to admonish straight talk with conscientious calls for class and respect and so on - well, you go on now, go on and gather up your skirts and walk away mad. You're still beautiful when you're angry, even if you don't make a lick of damned sense.

I sincerely hope you never screw up on a boat, because we'll have a field day. 99.9% of us have done things on boats that could be deemed unsafe. Most of us have been lucky.

 

I'm not going to judge this guy. No doubt, mistakes were made, but we all do it.

 

That. Never mind that the reports may not be complete or accurate and the skipper is dead and can't defend his decisions.

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I've been following SA for over 15 years, the vast majority of that time as a lurker. Each time there's a disaster and a thread about it, a whole bunch of Shirleys jump in and try to control the narrative with guilt, social graces, and a defense for the honor of people they've never met as if the victims were their next of kin. It's such bullshit. People reading this thread now and in the future need to discuss what went wrong and how to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

 

Trying to sugarcoat a string of bad decisions that led to a fatal outcome isn't an attack on the skipper - it's pointing out the sobering obvious that led to loss of life. How many people search around SA before chartering in the Med or around Croatia? Think about them.

 

So you Shirleys that want to diminish and suppress the fact that deaths on the skipper's hands could have been avoided, who want to hide behind something appearing like the benefit of a doubt when it's really a complete suspension of disbelief, who want to admonish straight talk with conscientious calls for class and respect and so on - well, you go on now, go on and gather up your skirts and walk away mad. You're still beautiful when you're angry, even if you don't make a lick of damned sense.

I sincerely hope you never screw up on a boat, because we'll have a field day. 99.9% of us have done things on boats that could be deemed unsafe. Most of us have been lucky.

 

I'm not going to judge this guy. No doubt, mistakes were made, but we all do it.

 

That. Never mind that the reports may not be complete or accurate and the skipper is dead and can't defend his decisions.

 

 

 

also - there is a difference between carefully considered discussion of the actions that led to an accident.., and just saying the're "fuckin idiots"

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Must be amazing to be such a brilliant asshole as skol. He is so good he can tell us all exactly how we should and shouldn't behave on the water.

 

Fucking knowall douchbag.

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Good one you bleeding hearts..This is SA for fucks sake...You want to do some Requiem Mass shit for idiots you don't even know then go post your tearful drivel on some other vagina orientated platform.

 

The more people know this and then the how and why ...being the commander of this catastrofuck literally tried to do a perfect job of killing all his companions ..then the better everyone else who owns a sailboat will be.

 

It has got nothing to do with respect. Feel that then go buy some flowers and pass them on to the respective families you turnips.

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Good one you bleeding hearts..This is SA for fucks sake...You want to do some Requiem Mass shit for idiots you don't even know then go post your tearful drivel on some other vagina orientated platform.

 

The more people know this and then the how and why ...being the commander of this catastrofuck literally tried to do a perfect job of killing all his companions ..then the better everyone else who owns a sailboat will be.

 

It has got nothing to do with respect. Feel that then go buy some flowers and pass them on to the respective families you turnips.

 

 

 

funny - you had a different response to quite a mild comment, and one that as clearly intended to be constructive.., in the Ceeki Rafiki thread...

 

 

One item I haven't seen discussed is that the skipper reported to the management that he thought the starboard water tank was ruptured after there was water in the bilge which got worse over two days. Surely a simple taste test would have revealed that the water was salt brine. Two days is a long time to investigate a salt water leak and prepare for the worst.

Good one kiwin with that snide reference indicating the skipper was totally at fault..

 

...moderators this thread should be either closed down pending the judge making a decision in June or if allowing it to continue then inflammatory posts like this from this kiwin fuckwit should get a nanosecond of airtime.

 

This is serious shit and people need to learn from the results of an independent determination, not wild arsed speculation.

 

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You pays yer money and you takes yer chance.....

Do your maintenance

Pay attention to your environment

Don't go mental when shit goes wrong

Not much worth getting dead for

Think....

I'm amazed that any survived

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it would be interesting to see the skips internet history to see if and how many times he checked the weather forecast before setting out and if he did was the forecast accurate.

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This is not a tragedy at sea..They are fuckin idiots and coastal at that. Stop opening threads for morons like this and their offspring.

 

Ahhh, words of wisdom from anonymous cowards. What a punk.

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"Sources for weather information:

There is a continuous (computerised voice) weather forecast on VHF 68 - first in Italian and then followed with an English translation.

The same forecast is given in Italian and English on VHF coastal stations following a notification on channel 16.

Navtex weather forecasts covering the Adriatic are broadcast from stations at Roma, Trieste, Kerkyra (Greece) and Split (Croatia)."

 

"

The entrance to the river is marked by a long breakwater extending NNE over 300 metres from the E side of the river and the E/W oriented breakwater of the marina basin some 250 metres inshore. Depths in the entrance are 6.0 metres at the outer end of the breakwater, shoaling to 4.0 metres at the marina entrance and 3.0 - 3.5 metres in the canal basin beyond."

 

...

 

Note: Along this stretch of the Adriatic coast tidal ranges can exceed 1.0 metre at springs, so judging the tides right can make a significant difference to safe access in most of the shallower harbours."

 

http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Rimini

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Good one you bleeding hearts..This is SA for fucks sake...You want to do some Requiem Mass shit for idiots you don't even know then go post your tearful drivel on some other vagina orientated platform.

 

The more people know this and then the how and why ...being the commander of this catastrofuck literally tried to do a perfect job of killing all his companions ..then the better everyone else who owns a sailboat will be.

 

It has got nothing to do with respect. Feel that then go buy some flowers and pass them on to the respective families you turnips.

 

 

funny - you had a different response to quite a mild comment, and one that as clearly intended to be constructive.., in the Ceeki Rafiki thread...

 

One item I haven't seen discussed is that the skipper reported to the management that he thought the starboard water tank was ruptured after there was water in the bilge which got worse over two days. Surely a simple taste test would have revealed that the water was salt brine. Two days is a long time to investigate a salt water leak and prepare for the worst.

Good one kiwin with that snide reference indicating the skipper was totally at fault..

 

...moderators this thread should be either closed down pending the judge making a decision in June or if allowing it to continue then inflammatory posts like this from this kiwin fuckwit should get a nanosecond of airtime.

 

This is serious shit and people need to learn from the results of an independent determination, not wild arsed speculation.

US the different response is because the Cheeky circumstances completely different, namely a MIAB report completed and resulting in someone being charged and currently awaiting trial, who wasn't on board.

 

Putting aside the impossibility of putting the skipper beside him, Kiwin's inference was he should be because he couldn't find where the water was coming from. Short of having a hole where you either see daylight or dolphins, finding the culprit, if not the usual through hull suspects in a production boat is no easy task, even tied up to the dock on a sunny day with no over deck water to factor in.

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You really don 't want to be there , I think if this is the entrance you want to stay off shore if possible

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Good one you bleeding hearts..This is SA for fucks sake...You want to do some Requiem Mass shit for idiots you don't even know then go post your tearful drivel on some other vagina orientated platform.

The more people know this and then the how and why ...being the commander of this catastrofuck literally tried to do a perfect job of killing all his companions ..then the better everyone else who owns a sailboat will be.

It has got nothing to do with respect. Feel that then go buy some flowers and pass them on to the respective families you turnips.

Just because you are right does not mean that you are not a dick.

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Good one you bleeding hearts..This is SA for fucks sake...You want to do some Requiem Mass shit for idiots you don't even know then go post your tearful drivel on some other vagina orientated platform.

The more people know this and then the how and why ...being the commander of this catastrofuck literally tried to do a perfect job of killing all his companions ..then the better everyone else who owns a sailboat will be.

It has got nothing to do with respect. Feel that then go buy some flowers and pass them on to the respective families you turnips.

Just because you are right does not mean that you are not a dick.

Your life must be interesting ...like you only embrace and hug people who are wrong. That must piss people off that you consider are on the money. You clearly have a very complicated mind.

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I've been following SA for over 15 years, the vast majority of that time as a lurker. Each time there's a disaster and a thread about it, a whole bunch of Shirleys jump in and try to control the narrative with guilt, social graces, and a defense for the honor of people they've never met as if the victims were their next of kin. It's such bullshit. People reading this thread now and in the future need to discuss what went wrong and how to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

 

Trying to sugarcoat a string of bad decisions that led to a fatal outcome isn't an attack on the skipper - it's pointing out the sobering obvious that led to loss of life. How many people search around SA before chartering in the Med or around Croatia? Think about them.

 

So you Shirleys that want to diminish and suppress the fact that deaths on the skipper's hands could have been avoided, who want to hide behind something appearing like the benefit of a doubt when it's really a complete suspension of disbelief, who want to admonish straight talk with conscientious calls for class and respect and so on - well, you go on now, go on and gather up your skirts and walk away mad. You're still beautiful when you're angry, even if you don't make a lick of damned sense.

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and this one is the lucky skipper ? or local knowledge and skills ? who knows ?

 

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and this one is the lucky skipper ? or local knowledge and skills ? who knows ?

 

I bet he could do that 3 times in a row B)

would have loved know if the guy on the bow shit himself

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and this one is the lucky skipper ? or local knowledge and skills ? who knows ?

 

 

 

Probably a mix of the 3!

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and this one is the lucky skipper ? or local knowledge and skills ? who knows ?

 

 

This is polish boat entering Svaneke harbour, on Bornholm island after just over 25 hours passage from Gdynia, Poland. Wind was some 22m/s and some 30 m/s gusts short baltic waves. There were 9 people on-board only one has experience. There were other ports on that small island far better in that wind and waves direction. General opinion in polish sailing internet is not in favour of that lucky jerk.

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If the engine on that Polish boat had crapped out they would have ended up like the boat that started this thread.

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If the engine on that Polish boat had crapped out they would have ended up like the boat that started this thread.

 

 

Unexpected squall or wave interference at the entrance and the engine would be irrelevant. Pure hazard...

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There are many idiot skippers, Monday one died over here, being in a place you should never be.

Even locals are very carefully there. How he ended up there, no ones know.

 

reminder, Dutch rescue service is voluntary work, paid for by the public, no state involvement.

 

 

https://www.knrm.nl/nieuws/knrm-reddingstation-texel-de-cocksdorp/omgeslagen-zeiljacht-in-de-eierlandsche-gronden-nabij-vliehors

 

area

eierlandsche gronden;

https://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=en#boating@11&key=qfvcIg%7Bo%5C

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If this is the danish harbour the polish skipper had lots of angels on his shoulder. He missed the first outer by a few metres ? And the big wave throws him over the little bank ?

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And the harbour

post-63481-0-44517900-1493151947_thumb.png

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The boat was, OK, there was no danger on board. Nothing. I would choose Rønne.

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and this one is the lucky skipper ? or local knowledge and skills ? who knows ?

 

 

This is polish boat entering Svaneke harbour, on Bornholm island after just over 25 hours passage from Gdynia, Poland. Wind was some 22m/s and some 30 m/s gusts short baltic waves. There were 9 people on-board only one has experience. There were other ports on that small island far better in that wind and waves direction. General opinion in polish sailing internet is not in favour of that lucky jerk.

 

The margin between lucky hero and dead idiot is often very small.

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and this one is the lucky skipper ? or local knowledge and skills ? who knows ?

 

 

This is polish boat entering Svaneke harbour, on Bornholm island after just over 25 hours passage from Gdynia, Poland. Wind was some 22m/s and some 30 m/s gusts short baltic waves. There were 9 people on-board only one has experience. There were other ports on that small island far better in that wind and waves direction. General opinion in polish sailing internet is not in favour of that lucky jerk.

 

The margin between lucky hero and dead idiot is often very small.

 

+eleventy million

 

dumb dumb dumb. I've seen the CG and commercial boats do incredible things. With professional pilots. And professional maintenance and engineering on solid craft designed for the worst that mother ocean can dish out. Participating in the Darwin Olympics like this with assembly line leisure craft is criminally negligent behavior.

 

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and this one is the lucky skipper ? or local knowledge and skills ? who knows ?

 

 

This is polish boat entering Svaneke harbour, on Bornholm island after just over 25 hours passage from Gdynia, Poland. Wind was some 22m/s and some 30 m/s gusts short baltic waves. There were 9 people on-board only one has experience. There were other ports on that small island far better in that wind and waves direction. General opinion in polish sailing internet is not in favour of that lucky jerk.

 

The margin between lucky hero and dead idiot is often very small.

 

 

+1

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dumb dumb dumb. I've seen the CG and commercial boats do incredible things. With professional pilots. And professional maintenance and engineering on solid craft designed for the worst that mother ocean can dish out. Participating in the Darwin Olympics like this with assembly line leisure craft is criminally negligent behavior.

 

 

+1

 

For me this movie shows only total lack of imagination. And tons of luck. Zero seamanship or courage. It's so easy to look brave when you've got no clue about the danger. If you are lucky that day...

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and this one is the lucky skipper ? or local knowledge and skills ? who knows ?

 

https://youtu.be/yG9JmkhH7Qg

This is polish boat entering Svaneke harbour, on Bornholm island after just over 25 hours passage from Gdynia, Poland. Wind was some 22m/s and some 30 m/s gusts short baltic waves. There were 9 people on-board only one has experience. There were other ports on that small island far better in that wind and waves direction. General opinion in polish sailing internet is not in favour of that lucky jerk.

The margin between lucky hero and dead idiot is often very small.

+eleventy million

 

dumb dumb dumb. I've seen the CG and commercial boats do incredible things. With professional pilots. And professional maintenance and engineering on solid craft designed for the worst that mother ocean can dish out. Participating in the Darwin Olympics like this with assembly line leisure craft is criminally negligent behavior.

 

"Participating in the Darwin Olympics.."???

 

 

Seems not Skol ..both Darwin & his cohort Wallace think this entry into Charles annual idiot award does not belong, and have rejected your thumbs up.

 

They think it should be judged in some competition and by someone/something all pre-monkey...how does grass vote??.

 

post-108919-0-07254300-1493204471_thumb.jpg

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grass votes with the breeze, just like the skipper in that vid!

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grass votes with the breeze, just like the skipper in that vid!

That is Darwin and Wallace not the skipper you digital age don't read a thing fool...PS. I know as I took that pic and have gelatin-silver symptoms to prove it.

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The most important thing to be said here is that sailboats can best handle rough conditions under sail, and that too few sailboat owners understand that, or have the self discipline to do it. It is just too easy to turn on the motor. Every sailboat owner needs to sail more. They need to sail always, not motor everywhere, but currently most sailboat owners or operators seem stubbornly opposed to this. They rarely put up sails, or if they do they raise the main then motor onward calling it motor sailing. The owner/captain of that Bravaria might have saved his vessel and the lives of four people if they had been in the habit of sailing and had suitable sails up at the time of this incident.

 

Yet this act of poor seamanship, the one which led directly to the loss of the vessel and those four lives, is all too common, and one which we see every day. People go to sea, presumably in well found sailboats, fail to set sail, and instead rely solely on an auxiliary engine to complete a passage in which the conditions could turn to difficult at any time. I've even heard of sailors who state that when the sea gets rough they take down the sails, And, as in this case, if the motor fails those vessels are helpless. Tragedy ensures.

 

I talked about this incident with my wife, Judy. She was unequivocal, "I wouldn't like to be there in our boat, but I'd much rather be sailing than motoring." Absolutely. With sails you can deal with the wind and waves. Without, you are just getting battered about.

 

A Bravaria 50 might not be the most robustly built boat but I am confident that it could sail off a lee shore with a double reefed main and a scrap of jib. With the engine to assist they could have obtained much needed sea room. With six able bodied persons on board, at least two of which with extensive experience, they situation should have been manageable and survivable. They should have sailed away from the lee shore and avoided the dangerous marina entrance. We all know that.

 

But most of us reading this already know that what I have said is true, so I am preaching to the choir. What can we do about those people who never seem to get it? There is something we can do, each one of us: When we see someone come in, motoring, who could have been sailing, in a friendly way, we need to confront them about it. We can each of us become advocates of good seamanship.

 

OK, maybe we will be wasting our breath, but it's the least we can do, and you never know, maybe somebody will get the message.

 

 

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Such great ideas. Can just imagine how safe it is going to be on a Sunday afternoon with everyone sailing back into marinas without those pesky engines running.

 

Powerboaters think sailors are idiots, now with all this great advice we can all prove them right.

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@ wingssail - I agree, it also takes the sailing handling at higher levels

 

 

@ gissie - in some way the powerboaters are right, what 's the fun in saling at 40 - 60 kn of wind, cold water and calling it adventure ?

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Powerboaters think sailors are idiots

 

Just another example of their general level of cluelessness.

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Reading and learning,

Know when to stay home, Easier said then done when the vacation lasts only a few days, but of course.

Know when not to head home. Great point.

Motors fail in extreme conditions. I get that. I know from experience an outboard inhales water or cavitates. I understand from here even marine diesels mix air (and fuel?). Redundancy is good. But winds under bridges and in steep sided narrow places are apt to be strong and gusty, There is a lot of land affect when you are surrounded by land. I've had my sailhead reach above a wall or bank to catch wind I can't see or feel at the tiller, many of you have taller masts. I was under the habit of dropping my main on all but the calmest day to motor under a narrow bridge in a choke point because the winds would tend to sweep in and force a gybe or try to smash me against concrete. Yet advise here would be to always leave the sail up? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy short tacking, but pick my days out of fear of a snagged sheet when any moment would be the wrong moment.

 

Could somebody explain also why a sailboat in relatively open water is safer under appropriately reefed sail then bare poles and motor? I've been told that before but it doesn't feel so. An old discussion in a one design forum explored a boat flipped by a following wave in a gale at a shallow spot of the Chesapeake under motor, with the builder arguing he would have been better off under a scrap of sail.

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Reading and learning,

Know when to stay home, Easier said then done when the vacation lasts only a few days, but of course.

Know when not to head home. Great point.

Motors fail in extreme conditions. I get that. I know from experience an outboard inhales water or cavitates. I understand from here even marine diesels mix air (and fuel?). Redundancy is good. But winds under bridges and in steep sided narrow places are apt to be strong and gusty, There is a lot of land affect when you are surrounded by land. I've had my sailhead reach above a wall or bank to catch wind I can't see or feel at the tiller, many of you have taller masts. I was under the habit of dropping my main on all but the calmest day to motor under a narrow bridge in a choke point because the winds would tend to sweep in and force a gybe or try to smash me against concrete. Yet advise here would be to always leave the sail up? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy short tacking, but pick my days out of fear of a snagged sheet when any moment would be the wrong moment.

 

Could somebody explain also why a sailboat in relatively open water is safer under appropriately reefed sail then bare poles and motor? I've been told that before but it doesn't feel so. An old discussion in a one design forum explored a boat flipped by a following wave in a gale at a shallow spot of the Chesapeake under motor, with the builder arguing he would have been better off under a scrap of sail.

the average depth of SF bay is 12 feet. combine that with 25 knots gusting to 30 and the waves can wreak havoc on boats with deep keels in shallow areas at the end of the slot there around Olympic Circle near Berkely. If you put up the sails and get her pulling on her waterlines, the draft shortens considerably, maybe enough to keep from bouncing on the bottom in the troughs if you're sweating it at low tide. you also have sand bars to worry about that can cause considerable disturbances in wave actions when the wind and the tide both are running.

 

Bridges and small islands are tricky - not just the wind but the eddies in the current, too. Not a damn thing wrong with quickly sheeting the main to centerline and motorsailing through trouble spots in calm conditions. The point is, AUXILIARY power. If you lose the motor, flick the main out and sheet the jib.

 

As for coastal port entrances - it's nothing like lake sailing or urban bay sailing. The wind's just blowing like hell, and the wave heights get higher because the water is getting thinner. They also get less predictable due to wave interference and convergence caused by irregular features at the shore. big scary waves, teensy weensy margin for error for navigating the breakwater and the jettys.

 

In the case of the souls lost here it's a distinct possibility that they lost the keel bouncing hard off the bottom during their approach under power.

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Could somebody explain also why a sailboat in relatively open water is safer under appropriately reefed sail then bare poles and motor? I've been told that before but it doesn't feel so. An old discussion in a one design forum explored a boat flipped by a following wave in a gale at a shallow spot of the Chesapeake under motor, with the builder arguing he would have been better off under a scrap of sail.

I suspect that a lot of this comes from having some pressure on the helm, sailboats frequently don't behave well under motor in poor conditions, especially when the motor is struggling and there is insufficient flow across the rudder.

If you have experience in poor conditions you can use the forces in the sails to control your direction more effectively than under motor alone.

 

NOW, in confined conditions especially harbors which are also river estuaries, the wind can be swinging around all over the place and often has a noticeable velocity increase. I would say that this can be pretty scary place to have to sail, not necessarily safer to have sails up.

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Reading and learning,

Know when to stay home, Easier said then done when the vacation lasts only a few days, but of course.

Know when not to head home. Great point.

Motors fail in extreme conditions. I get that. I know from experience an outboard inhales water or cavitates. I understand from here even marine diesels mix air (and fuel?). Redundancy is good. But winds under bridges and in steep sided narrow places are apt to be strong and gusty, There is a lot of land affect when you are surrounded by land. I've had my sailhead reach above a wall or bank to catch wind I can't see or feel at the tiller, many of you have taller masts. I was under the habit of dropping my main on all but the calmest day to motor under a narrow bridge in a choke point because the winds would tend to sweep in and force a gybe or try to smash me against concrete. Yet advise here would be to always leave the sail up? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy short tacking, but pick my days out of fear of a snagged sheet when any moment would be the wrong moment.

Could somebody explain also why a sailboat in relatively open water is safer under appropriately reefed sail then bare poles and motor? I've been told that before but it doesn't feel so. An old discussion in a one design forum explored a boat flipped by a following wave in a gale at a shallow spot of the Chesapeake under motor, with the builder arguing he would have been better off under a scrap of sail.

 

the average depth of SF bay is 12 feet. combine that with 25 knots gusting to 30 and the waves can wreak havoc on boats with deep keels in shallow areas at the end of the slot there around Olympic Circle near Berkely. If you put up the sails and get her pulling on her waterlines, the draft shortens considerably, maybe enough to keep from bouncing on the bottom in the troughs if you're sweating it at low tide. you also have sand bars to worry about that can cause considerable disturbances in wave actions when the wind and the tide both are running.

Bridges and small islands are tricky - not just the wind but the eddies in the current, too. Not a damn thing wrong with quickly sheeting the main to centerline and motorsailing through trouble spots in calm conditions. The point is, AUXILIARY power. If you lose the motor, flick the main out and sheet the jib.

As for coastal port entrances - it's nothing like lake sailing or urban bay sailing. The wind's just blowing like hell, and the wave heights get higher because the water is getting thinner. They also get less predictable due to wave interference and convergence caused by irregular features at the shore. big scary waves, teensy weensy margin for error for navigating the breakwater and the jettys.

In the case of the souls lost here it's a distinct possibility that they lost the keel bouncing hard off the bottom during their approach under power.

Thanks. Trying to relate to what I know. I have bounced around in an inlet in merely choppy conditions, but in a tiny boat so not being run over by a motor yacht was added to the entertainment, I experienced everything you described sufficiently to realize I made a mistake, but didn't lose the boat. I've also watched a train of 600-700 foot lakers anchor up in a gale to avoid entering Fairport Harbor in a crosswind.

 

Sheeting the main to centerline in a trailerable boat?? Between gusts washing the rail and the mast and spreaders dropping toward the wall plus the crazy leeway I just don't see the safety. Is a 30 footer that different?

 

Edit, Thanks JohnMB. Just saw your response too.

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Lots of commercial fishermen and coastguardsmen put themselves in situations where an engine failure would likely mean death. They still put to sea in small, single-engine boats. Whether your primary mode of propulsion is sail or engine, you need to put serious work into it if you trust it with your life. If you can't get home without your engine (like many sailors in close-quarters harbors or harbors with dangerous shoals), then your engine is really your primary mode of propulsion and should be treated that way. Check and replace filters, clean out fuel tanks, use anti-sludge compounds.

 

But these people didn't die from an engine failure. They died from "close-to-home-itis." They were so close to their destination that they figured that getting there was trivial, even though the dangerous bar in the way was in fact the biggest obstacle, not the seas. Ask any fisherman whose home port is dependent on a dangerous bar and you'll learn that they routinely have to divert to another, safer port or just wait for bar conditions to ease.

 

Is there another shoal-free port these people could have gone to?

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Against the wind:

Under power with no sails up, we all have the tendency to steer the boat perpendicular to wave crests, for good reason. Without the jib keeping the bow down to punch through the waves, you're left to surf dramatically over the top of them. If you try to quarter them head on, you risk the wave pushing the bow off and broaching the boat - a very serious situation. And since the boat is being pushed by the prop, all the thrust is at the stern and there's nothing holding her down.

Now set the jib and head off on a close reach. The bow settles down, the boat is pulling through the wave at an angle to the crest. The sails forces against the foils and the keel are forcing the hull and the bow to punch through and are working to keep the boat level. There's much less drama passing over the wave, the boat is not rising and falling so dramatically, and you're carrying a more consistent speed.

Off the wind: (spooky town)

Under power with no sails (or no power) off the wind is much more manageable, but it can be a false sense of security in big air or gale winds. Your biggest issue here is steering the swell and quartering bigger waves, hoping to avoid getting pooped, controlling boat speed on the way down, and avoiding burying the bow into the trough at the bottom of the wave. Now the waves want to push the stern around and broach the boat on the way down instead of on the way up. There are 2 strategies here: setting a storm anchor off the bow keeps you bow-to-wave while being blown backward downwind. Your rode needs to be longer than the distance between wave crests, otherwise the anchor will lose grip in a trough and shock load the line. Strategy 2 is to make a run for it stern-to-wind and drag a warp behind the boat to reduce boat speed. This can also be effective if you're being blown toward the coast but still have sea room to progress at 2~4 kts downhill. Which one is best depends on sea room, wave height, and how much you can trust the loads on the sea anchor. If it snaps or loses tension you could broach while getting blown back around.

The sail configuration you fly downhill is largely dependent on the boat. Some behave very well with a double or triple reefed main and no jib. others might settle down a bit better leaving the main down and a storm jib up, and there are some boats just seem to be pissed off unless both are flying in some form or another.

Downhill in tight quarters:

If you're sailing downwind to close quarters downhill (some situations dumber and more suicidal / murderous than others), I recommend setting your jib with a downhaul led back to a cockpit winch, leave the engine running with the gearbox in neutral, or unfurling the genoa enough to power the boat without power. I prefer singlehanding and this is always how I have my boat rigged. If I need the jib down I probably needed it down 60 seconds ago. a powered up main needs to be in irons to fully drop, and in tight quarters you don't have that luxury. If you get in trouble and need to claw upwind, the jib will keep the boat drawing enough to stay put while raising a reefed main and powering on up. In either case, I use the aux as a corrective force if I'm not able to sail the course necessary through to safety. Once behind the breakwater cut the halyard, hit the downhaul and slip into gear.

 

 

 

Reading and learning,
Know when to stay home, Easier said then done when the vacation lasts only a few days, but of course.
Know when not to head home. Great point.
Motors fail in extreme conditions. I get that. I know from experience an outboard inhales water or cavitates. I understand from here even marine diesels mix air (and fuel?). Redundancy is good. But winds under bridges and in steep sided narrow places are apt to be strong and gusty, There is a lot of land affect when you are surrounded by land. I've had my sailhead reach above a wall or bank to catch wind I can't see or feel at the tiller, many of you have taller masts. I was under the habit of dropping my main on all but the calmest day to motor under a narrow bridge in a choke point because the winds would tend to sweep in and force a gybe or try to smash me against concrete. Yet advise here would be to always leave the sail up? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy short tacking, but pick my days out of fear of a snagged sheet when any moment would be the wrong moment.
Could somebody explain also why a sailboat in relatively open water is safer under appropriately reefed sail then bare poles and motor? I've been told that before but it doesn't feel so. An old discussion in a one design forum explored a boat flipped by a following wave in a gale at a shallow spot of the Chesapeake under motor, with the builder arguing he would have been better off under a scrap of sail.

the average depth of SF bay is 12 feet. combine that with 25 knots gusting to 30 and the waves can wreak havoc on boats with deep keels in shallow areas at the end of the slot there around Olympic Circle near Berkely. If you put up the sails and get her pulling on her waterlines, the draft shortens considerably, maybe enough to keep from bouncing on the bottom in the troughs if you're sweating it at low tide. you also have sand bars to worry about that can cause considerable disturbances in wave actions when the wind and the tide both are running.
Bridges and small islands are tricky - not just the wind but the eddies in the current, too. Not a damn thing wrong with quickly sheeting the main to centerline and motorsailing through trouble spots in calm conditions. The point is, AUXILIARY power. If you lose the motor, flick the main out and sheet the jib.
As for coastal port entrances - it's nothing like lake sailing or urban bay sailing. The wind's just blowing like hell, and the wave heights get higher because the water is getting thinner. They also get less predictable due to wave interference and convergence caused by irregular features at the shore. big scary waves, teensy weensy margin for error for navigating the breakwater and the jettys.
In the case of the souls lost here it's a distinct possibility that they lost the keel bouncing hard off the bottom during their approach under power.
Thanks. Trying to relate to what I know. I have bounced around in an inlet in merely choppy conditions, but in a tiny boat so not being run over by a motor yacht was added to the entertainment, I experienced everything you described sufficiently to realize I made a mistake, but didn't lose the boat. I've also watched a train of 600-700 foot lakers anchor up in a gale to avoid entering Fairport Harbor in a crosswind.

Sheeting the main to centerline in a trailerable boat?? Between gusts washing the rail and the mast and spreaders dropping toward the wall plus the crazy leeway I just don't see the safety. Is a 30 footer that different?

Edit, Thanks JohnMB. Just saw your response too.

 

light wind and current disturbances: I tend to sheet to centerline when currents are stronger than the wind and I want to motor through. there are trouble spots all over SF bay and Puget sound like this.

heavy air, upwind or down: sheet to centerline (loosely) to keep the main depowered. If you're on a reach then you've already made a course and have a plan to head up and drop the main once you get there. Play the traveler while reaching to put the boom over and keep the main sheeted flat. If breeze is building and you think you should reef, you probably already should have. do it now.

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Thanks guys. Skol. Wonderful explanation, Especially holding the boat upwind and avoiding the broach, you just connected a couple dots making something I've experienced seem obvious. I must have been preoccupied at the time and not learning very well. :wacko: I've also played around with canoes in 3-4 foot waves. Of course I was prepared with a lashed down spare paddle and tow rope to grip in my teeth while swimming back. That isn't something to repeat in a real boat, but it was a chance to repeatedly explore how the bow and the waves interact without consequences. Plus its fun. Downwind with a sea anchor is something I have just read about. My near term plans don't extend beyond an east coast bay or back to the Abermarle Sound, more likely Erie and Huron where there are several marinas. My girlfriend has a childhood fear of Jellyfish, enforcing a certain caution. I don't know there is time between the bunched up great lakes waves to bury my fat flared bow vs just white water and pounding. Getting pooped with my 8' cockpit is a concern. She won't sink but she can roll. Times when a marina inlet seems is scarier then the lake certainly happen and I want to have a plan in place. While calm to 3-5 foot with gale force winds can happen quickly, 6-8 or more is at least an overnight blow in my experience. The little boat can handle a squall with 3-5 IF I don't screw up. The rest is just enough sense to stay in port, and not put myself under pressure to get back when a small craft warning is out. I've debated on a gale sail to put over the roller reefed jib if I could still navigate the foredeck, or a tiny drogue for emergencies. Thoughts? I've survived the stupid age and mitigate my risks. I mostly single-hand, but as a result my girlfriend is only slightly better then a passenger who speaks English as a second language, a challenge in a storm on unfamiliar waters.

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I took some time to read through the several italian articles after the tragedy. I could isolate and translate the facts reported. 

The Bavaria 50 'Dipiù was berthed in Ravenna Marina. Before heading out to sea the marina staff and the broker warned them of the bad weather conditions. Owner and crew decided to leave anyway hoping to get ahead of the weather and sail SE towards Sicily (their final destination). The Bora has a N-NE component. The boat departed around 12.30-13.00.

Particularly the broker who was in Ravenna and sold the boat to the owner could feel how bad the wind was gusting and he made another attempt to stop them calling the owner on the mobile phone and trying to convince him to head back into the Port Of Ravenna (Wide safe entrance with deep water, one of the most secure ports in the entire Adriatic). On the phone the owner confirmed that out there the seas were big and that he believed the severe weather would last another three or four hours.

It is possible that they decided to try to go back inside in Rimini when they realized the conditions exceeded their ability to make ESE progress, or that heading back to Ravenna (upwind with the bora gusting 45/50 kts) was impossible.

That part of the Italian coast is particularly dangerous with the Bora due to shallow waters that generates large breaking waves.

18010352_10210753036480070_3334904780702538670_n.jpg.69c4eb4ea0c4ff63ed2249c20c44d553.jpg

This is the following day wind chart reported just to give an idea of a mild Bora event int the Adriatic Sea in respect to Rimini (wind direction, speeds).

At that point the Bavaria calls the Marina di Rimini to request a berth. The news reporter noted that the skipper made a regular berth request, without any mention of emergency aboard. This means the engine was working and they believed to be "in control". The marina dispatched a RIB waiting inside the breakwater to escort them to the docks.

Witnesses stated that the boat was too south (downwind) of the channel and too close to the coast when it became impossible to steer in the breaking waves. One breaker knocked down the boat putting the spreaders in the water. At that point it is believed that the engine died. It's not clear if the boat lost the rudder and the keel before hitting the breakwater, as in those waves  a boat could hit bottom even in 10-15ft of depth. Waves height were reported by the Guardia Costiera at 15ft. The May Day came from the Port Autority which called the rescue when the accident happened, just after 16 hrs a little more than 3 hours after departure. The distance between the two ports is about 30nm.

As it was reported the crew were not wearing life jackets nor tethered to the boat, so they were swept into the sea before the boat hit the breakwaters (all but one of the two survivors who was inside the boat).

The authorities are investigating whose decision was to depart. They are also trying to establish if the engine (12 years old, 75 hp) died due to lack of maintenance or failure of components or if there was water ingress in the tanks and fuel lines due to the bad weather conditions. 

No news yet about findings from these investigations.

Here are some of the original articles I used (some have pictures and videos):

http://www.saily.it/it/news/naufragio-rimini-due-morti-e-feriti

http://www.ilrestodelcarlino.it/rimini/cronaca/barca-scogli-naufragio-1.3052247

http://www.larena.it/territori/città/naufragio-di-rimini-il-motore-al-centro-delle-indagini-1.5647037

http://bologna.repubblica.it/cronaca/2017/04/21/news/naufragio_di_rimini_restituite_le_salme_alle_famiglie-163521344/?refresh_ce

http://www.ilrestodelcarlino.it/ravenna/cronaca/barca-scogli-1.3048836

 

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in a full knockdown, can't the fuel pickup end up aspirating?meaning, it starts sucking air?  without auto-bleed wouldn't that lock up the engine until someone bled it?

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

in a full knockdown, can't the fuel pickup end up aspirating?meaning, it starts sucking air?  without auto-bleed wouldn't that lock up the engine until someone bled it?

I think that's possible.

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On 4/20/2017 at 1:29 AM, M26 said:

 

 

jack, you really are a special kind of stupid.

Thank you 

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It would interesting to know the situation on board. If many people are scared shitless, puking and getting knocked around or maybe everyone but the two capable people then now you have to double hand. If sails are not up already then its the motor and if the skipper is not calm, really taking in the situation and/or has simply never experienced trying to motor in those conditions then he's probably in a state of high anxiety and has tunnel vision. He just wants to end the nightmare as soon as possible. Purposely extending his three hour tour to be safer was probably not even in his reptilian mode brain. Wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time. Tragic and the last moments for the people who didn't make it were not pleasant.

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3 hours ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

It would interesting to know the situation on board. If many people are scared shitless, puking and getting knocked around or maybe everyone but the two capable people then now you have to double hand. If sails are not up already then its the motor and if the skipper is not calm, really taking in the situation and/or has simply never experienced trying to motor in those conditions then he's probably in a state of high anxiety and has tunnel vision. He just wants to end the nightmare as soon as possible. Purposely extending his three hour tour to be safer was probably not even in his reptilian mode brain. Wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time. Tragic and the last moments for the people who didn't make it were not pleasant.

Hey, I can relate. Taking my 40 footer out last night, a light breeze running down the fairway, in my haste to get aboard and back out of my crosswind slip, tossed the bow line over the lifeline and ran to the cockpit to hit reverse. I didn't notice the bowline slipped over the side until I went forward and wrapped the prop. By then I was 30 yards up the fairway with no sails rigged so all I could think to do was let the wind take over, drift backward and put her into the slip stern first. Not my proudest moment and there was never any physical danger but I remember thinking this is what that King Harbor skipper was dealing with as I considered my options. 

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On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 8:06 AM, psychosailing said:

I took some time to read through the several italian articles after the tragedy. I could isolate and translate the facts reported. 

 

 

thanks for that.

 

So it was a new owner, too?  Not even familiar with the boat, its maintenance history, or its foibles.  Warned not to go, broker rings again and suggests they return.

 

Seriously, I'm with Skol and Jack on this one -- you couldn't have planned a disaster more thoroughly.

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1 hour ago, duncan (the other one) said:

thanks for that.

 

So it was a new owner, too?  Not even familiar with the boat, its maintenance history, or its foibles.  Warned not to go, broker rings again and suggests they return.

 

Seriously, I'm with Skol and Jack on this one -- you couldn't have planned a disaster more thoroughly.

i could have.

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