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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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windseekeryachts

Sportboats under ORC handicap Racing in CharlestonRW 2017 // Wraceboat

69 posts in this topic

ORC rule was implemented as the principal handicap rule for the Charleston Race Week 2017, it was the first time the system was used in a major North American regatta. Thirty boats raced in four separate ORC Classes at this event

One of the most competitive fleets was ORC C. The fleet consisted of f 9 boats, SR33, Melges 32, Melges 30, Heno 30, 2X Farest28Rs, and 3GP26s.

 

USA2604 Michael Beasley and Team Rattle and Rum won the event with a comfortable margin.

the results are here

Overall, the ORC rating system seemed to work well... More often only a few seconds were the deciding factor between the corrected times...

The overall award for the best performance in an ORC Class went also to Mike Beasley and his Annapolis-based crew of Joe Gibson, Ted and Joanna Harland, Scott Gibbs and Ty Van Dalen...
Beasley and his crew were awarded the prestigious and historic Palmetto Cup for winning the tightest class in the handicap divisions.

 

We are very happy to see the boat performing well under ORC rating. Hope it will get more popularity in the USA, as this will lead to exciting racing with some fast boats...

Congratulations to Eagles Eye (FE28) and Short Bus (Henderson 30) as well as all other teams competing...

 

 

photocredit: CharlestonRaceWeek; TimWilkes Photography
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Wow, that's a pretty big spread if you're looking at PHRF numbers. Nice Job, Rattle n Rum. Now let's see if any of the PHRF boats at BIRW are going to step up and make the switch.

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Did any of those boats require a full measurement? (Meaning their boat did not have a hull file in ORC) IRC failed in the US, in my opinion, because it type formed and had a high cost or barrier to entry if you went with a full measurement. ORC does not seem to type form as much but still has the high cost or barrier to entry if your hull is not in the database or want to get a full measurement. It would seem that if ORC wanted to get a foothold in the racing game they would want to get a critical mass going and offer incentives for boats to come on board.

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Having watched the racing Fri and Sat on the way in I would be curious to see the results scored a different way. This was the class we would of been in with the sportboat so were very interested.

Was the GP fastest, boat for boat downwind?

Were all boats in planing mode?

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Really? Results may have been close in the Sportsboat class but the other ORC divisions look like they were a bit lopsided. In all of the other classes, One boat really seemed to dominate everything.

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Having watched it all, the dominant boats dominated because they were sailed well, with one exception - a boat that seems to crush under PHRF, IRC, and now ORC. They won one race despite being OCS and even sailing bare headed for a while, and are fully measured and, I presume, quite optimized. Tangent is generally well sailed, but not during the two races we watched that they won. In contrast, the one race we saw Gladiator fuck up (and the video of that start is on the CRW facebook page from Saturday), they got a 4th and deserved it. The rest of the races we watched, they were bang on the laylines with launched starts and deserved the win. The D class was so small and the skill level so disparate it is hard to generalize anything about it from the week.

 

Inshore C was pretty crazy and awesome, and considering the .8 NM legs, very few of the bigger sporties were ever sailing at maximum speed. In those condiitons, a well sussed out GP26 can be around the mark with guys hiking far quicker than a Hendo or Melges 32, and slick maneuvers made the difference more than outright boat speed. All things being equal the Melges 32 - crewed by longtime Charleston sailmakers who know the harbor like the back of their hands - should have been over the line first in all races, but that rarely happened. Beasley's crew on the GP couldn't get off the line well, but they were damned slick at the corners and on top of most of the shifts. The other Fareast 28 would have podiumed too (or won) had they not lost 4 races to the blown out OEM (chinese) mainsail. I took my baby girl and some friends out on it last week and it is a surprisingly well turned-out boat for 50k. Also pretty damned waterproof, and coming from Melges land, that's a bit of a shocker. I think they benefitted from the same thing as the good GP guys - simpler, smaller stuff, quicker to get up to speed with bodies on the rail.

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Having watched the racing Fri and Sat on the way in I would be curious to see the results scored a different way. This was the class we would of been in with the sportboat so were very interested.

Was the GP fastest, boat for boat downwind?

Were all boats in planing mode?

I just ran the first race numbers using PHRF TOT in comparison to the Race. I assumed all GP26's had same phrf rating and same for the FE28's.

Finish ORC PHRF TOT

1. Eagle's Eye Rattle N' Rum

2. Rattle n rum Short Bus

3. Hall Pass Hall Pass

4. Hard 1 Eagles Eye

5. Short Bus Fearless

6. Sprint 6 Sprint 6

7. Temptress Hard 1

8. Fearless Cougar

9. Cougar Temptress

 

I don't have time to do the other races right now - yachtscoring isn't conducive to exports - but it looks like TOT would have shaken things up a bit differently.

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I believe Sprint 6 is an IB GP 26.

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I believe Sprint 6 is an IB GP 26.

yes it is. thus heavier and more drag thus slower boat than other Wraceboats GP26s. Still performs well in high winds though...specially upwind.

they finished 3rd in last years GP26 Class racing in Charleston in a fleet of 5 boats under ORC handicap, all other 4 being outboards...

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Did any of those boats require a full measurement? (Meaning their boat did not have a hull file in ORC) IRC failed in the US, in my opinion, because it type formed and had a high cost or barrier to entry if you went with a full measurement. ORC does not seem to type form as much but still has the high cost or barrier to entry if your hull is not in the database or want to get a full measurement. It would seem that if ORC wanted to get a foothold in the racing game they would want to get a critical mass going and offer incentives for boats to come on board.

Many of the Charleston Boats had full measurements but that is because Dave Hobbs came down and measured a bunch of boats for free one weekend last month. The sole reason to get more boats to participate. Even though we ended up class racing (105s) we got measured and got a an ORC club cert for 100.00. Not really price prohibitive.

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I believe Sprint 6 is an IB GP 26.

the only events it's done are under ORC at least through yachtscoring and I haven't bothered to go searching for its phrf number. Even if it's 6s/mile "slower" it doesn't change the TOT results for race 1.

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Having watched the racing Fri and Sat on the way in I would be curious to see the results scored a different way. This was the class we would of been in with the sportboat so were very interested.

Was the GP fastest, boat for boat downwind?

Were all boats in planing mode?

I just ran the first race numbers using PHRF TOT in comparison to the Race. I assumed all GP26's had same phrf rating and same for the FE28's.

Finish ORC PHRF TOT

1. Eagle's Eye Rattle N' Rum

2. Rattle n rum Short Bus

3. Hall Pass Hall Pass

4. Hard 1 Eagles Eye

5. Short Bus Fearless

6. Sprint 6 Sprint 6

7. Temptress Hard 1

8. Fearless Cougar

9. Cougar Temptress

 

I don't have time to do the other races right now - yachtscoring isn't conducive to exports - but it looks like TOT would have shaken things up a bit differently.

What PHRF ratings did you use for the various boats?

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Tangent had a gift PHRF rating so I am sure it's ORC number was similar. Although I hoped for more a accurate rating. Like Clean said I've seen them sail terrible and still win. I know all the ORC boats they beat and most of them are very well sailed most of the time.

It's hard to handicap a one one-off type boat.

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I really not surprised Rattle and Rum won. Beasley could ride a sheep around a course and still beat everyone.

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Did any of those boats require a full measurement? (Meaning their boat did not have a hull file in ORC) IRC failed in the US, in my opinion, because it type formed and had a high cost or barrier to entry if you went with a full measurement. ORC does not seem to type form as much but still has the high cost or barrier to entry if your hull is not in the database or want to get a full measurement. It would seem that if ORC wanted to get a foothold in the racing game they would want to get a critical mass going and offer incentives for boats to come on board.

Many of the Charleston Boats had full measurements but that is because Dave Hobbs came down and measured a bunch of boats for free one weekend last month. The sole reason to get more boats to participate. Even though we ended up class racing (105s) we got measured and got a an ORC club cert for 100.00. Not really price prohibitive.

 

 

 

ORC Club is the low cost option. Quoting here from the ORC web-site:

 

There are two forms of the rating systems that are fully compatible using the same measurements and the same VPP: ORC International (ORCi) and ORC Club. ORCi is based on a complete boat measurement as defined by the International Measurement System (IMS). ORC Club uses the same data, but it may be accepted as being declared by the owner or obtained from any other source, including photos, drawings, designs or data from identical or similar boats.

 

In use, ORCi is a complete measurement rule and it is applied in all countries at the same level, while ORC Club is administered locally where each country may decide the level of measurement needed and even translate the complete certificate into the local language. ORCi is intended for use on World, Continental, Regional and National level as well as major international offshore races, while ORC Club is as its name implies designed for Club-level racing that can go up to national championship level. Both systems having the same rating and scoring options and can be scored together in any races.

 

Of course, due to better quality of measurement data, ORCi certificates will be more accurate and give more favorable ratings. Because the systems are so compatible, it is very easy for owner who has an ORC Club certificate to upgrade to ORCi – just contact your local measurer or rating authority.

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ORC rule was implemented as the principal handicap rule for the Charleston Race Week 2017, it was the first time the system was used in a major North American regatta.

 

I think the organizers of Swiftsure, Southern Straits, and several other events would take exception to this statement.

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Having watched the racing Fri and Sat on the way in I would be curious to see the results scored a different way. This was the class we would of been in with the sportboat so were very interested.

Was the GP fastest, boat for boat downwind?

Were all boats in planing mode?

I just ran the first race numbers using PHRF TOT in comparison to the Race. I assumed all GP26's had same phrf rating and same for the FE28's.

Finish ORC PHRF TOT

1. Eagle's Eye Rattle N' Rum

2. Rattle n rum Short Bus

3. Hall Pass Hall Pass

4. Hard 1 Eagles Eye

5. Short Bus Fearless

6. Sprint 6 Sprint 6

7. Temptress Hard 1

8. Fearless Cougar

9. Cougar Temptress

 

I don't have time to do the other races right now - yachtscoring isn't conducive to exports - but it looks like TOT would have shaken things up a bit differently.

What PHRF ratings did you use for the various boats?

 

Since I didn't know the distance, I calculated TOT using 650/(550+PHRF), which matched up with one of the boat's TOT allowance. The PHRF numbers all came from looking up the individual boats - all but two had raced at least 1 phrf event. The m32 rating I took from PHRF-NE and I guessed at the other GP26, but have since updated it to 84 since it has an inboard, etc. So this is the list:

 

SailNo Boat Name Boat Type PHRF TOT ORC
USA 2604 Rattle 'n' Rum GP 26 78 1.035 0.764
USA 71221 Short Bus Henderson 30 42 1.098 0.8254
USA 2609 Hall Pass Donovan GP 26 78 1.035 0.7718
USA 259 Eagle's Eye Fareast 28R 51 1.082 0.756
USA 184 Fearless melges 32 24 1.132 0.8711
USA 2608 Sprint6 GP 26 84 1.025 0.7339
CAN 129 Hard 1 Fareast 28R 51 1.082 0.7443
USA 105 Cougar Melges 30 42 1.098 0.8244
USA 50484 Temptress SR33 69 1.050 0.7453

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ORC rule was implemented as the principal handicap rule for the Charleston Race Week 2017, it was the first time the system was used in a major North American regatta.

 

I think the organizers of Swiftsure, Southern Straits, and several other events would take exception to this statement.

 

Wasn't KWRW in 2016 all ORC and OD?

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Having watched the racing Fri and Sat on the way in I would be curious to see the results scored a different way. This was the class we would of been in with the sportboat so were very interested.

Was the GP fastest, boat for boat downwind?

Were all boats in planing mode?

I just ran the first race numbers using PHRF TOT in comparison to the Race. I assumed all GP26's had same phrf rating and same for the FE28's.

Finish ORC PHRF TOT

1. Eagle's Eye Rattle N' Rum

2. Rattle n rum Short Bus

3. Hall Pass Hall Pass

4. Hard 1 Eagles Eye

5. Short Bus Fearless

6. Sprint 6 Sprint 6

7. Temptress Hard 1

8. Fearless Cougar

9. Cougar Temptress

 

I don't have time to do the other races right now - yachtscoring isn't conducive to exports - but it looks like TOT would have shaken things up a bit differently.

What PHRF ratings did you use for the various boats?

Since I didn't know the distance, I calculated TOT using 650/(550+PHRF), which matched up with one of the boat's TOT allowance. The PHRF numbers all came from looking up the individual boats - all but two had raced at least 1 phrf event. The m32 rating I took from PHRF-NE and I guessed at the other GP26, but have since updated it to 84 since it has an inboard, etc. So this is the list:

 

SailNo Boat Name Boat Type PHRF TOT ORC

USA 2604 Rattle 'n' Rum GP 26 78 1.035 0.764

USA 71221 Short Bus Henderson 30 42 1.098 0.8254

USA 2609 Hall Pass Donovan GP 26 78 1.035 0.7718

USA 259 Eagle's Eye Fareast 28R 51 1.082 0.756

USA 184 Fearless melges 32 24 1.132 0.8711

USA 2608 Sprint6 GP 26 84 1.025 0.7339

CAN 129 Hard 1 Fareast 28R 51 1.082 0.7443

USA 105 Cougar Melges 30 42 1.098 0.8244

USA 50484 Temptress SR33 69 1.050 0.7453

Thanks, Ryley

From whence the rating for the FE28R?

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ORC rule was implemented as the principal handicap rule for the Charleston Race Week 2017, it was the first time the system was used in a major North American regatta.

 

I think the organizers of Swiftsure, Southern Straits, and several other events would take exception to this statement.

 

Wasn't KWRW in 2016 all ORC and OD?

 

 

yes.

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Having watched the racing Fri and Sat on the way in I would be curious to see the results scored a different way. This was the class we would of been in with the sportboat so were very interested.

Was the GP fastest, boat for boat downwind?

Were all boats in planing mode?

I just ran the first race numbers using PHRF TOT in comparison to the Race. I assumed all GP26's had same phrf rating and same for the FE28's.

Finish ORC PHRF TOT

1. Eagle's Eye Rattle N' Rum

2. Rattle n rum Short Bus

3. Hall Pass Hall Pass

4. Hard 1 Eagles Eye

5. Short Bus Fearless

6. Sprint 6 Sprint 6

7. Temptress Hard 1

8. Fearless Cougar

9. Cougar Temptress

 

I don't have time to do the other races right now - yachtscoring isn't conducive to exports - but it looks like TOT would have shaken things up a bit differently.

What PHRF ratings did you use for the various boats?

Since I didn't know the distance, I calculated TOT using 650/(550+PHRF), which matched up with one of the boat's TOT allowance. The PHRF numbers all came from looking up the individual boats - all but two had raced at least 1 phrf event. The m32 rating I took from PHRF-NE and I guessed at the other GP26, but have since updated it to 84 since it has an inboard, etc. So this is the list:

 

SailNo Boat Name Boat Type PHRF TOT ORC

USA 2604 Rattle 'n' Rum GP 26 78 1.035 0.764

USA 71221 Short Bus Henderson 30 42 1.098 0.8254

USA 2609 Hall Pass Donovan GP 26 78 1.035 0.7718

USA 259 Eagle's Eye Fareast 28R 51 1.082 0.756

USA 184 Fearless melges 32 24 1.132 0.8711

USA 2608 Sprint6 GP 26 84 1.025 0.7339

CAN 129 Hard 1 Fareast 28R 51 1.082 0.7443

USA 105 Cougar Melges 30 42 1.098 0.8244

USA 50484 Temptress SR33 69 1.050 0.7453

Thanks, Ryley

From whence the rating for the FE28R?

 

from hence: https://yachtscoring.com/yacht_results.cfm?Yacht_ID=101642

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Having watched the racing Fri and Sat on the way in I would be curious to see the results scored a different way. This was the class we would of been in with the sportboat so were very interested.

Was the GP fastest, boat for boat downwind?

Were all boats in planing mode?

I just ran the first race numbers using PHRF TOT in comparison to the Race. I assumed all GP26's had same phrf rating and same for the FE28's.

Finish ORC PHRF TOT

1. Eagle's Eye Rattle N' Rum

2. Rattle n rum Short Bus

3. Hall Pass Hall Pass

4. Hard 1 Eagles Eye

5. Short Bus Fearless

6. Sprint 6 Sprint 6

7. Temptress Hard 1

8. Fearless Cougar

9. Cougar Temptress

 

I don't have time to do the other races right now - yachtscoring isn't conducive to exports - but it looks like TOT would have shaken things up a bit differently.

What PHRF ratings did you use for the various boats?

Since I didn't know the distance, I calculated TOT using 650/(550+PHRF), which matched up with one of the boat's TOT allowance. The PHRF numbers all came from looking up the individual boats - all but two had raced at least 1 phrf event. The m32 rating I took from PHRF-NE and I guessed at the other GP26, but have since updated it to 84 since it has an inboard, etc. So this is the list:

 

SailNo Boat Name Boat Type PHRF TOT ORC

USA 2604 Rattle 'n' Rum GP 26 78 1.035 0.764

USA 71221 Short Bus Henderson 30 42 1.098 0.8254

USA 2609 Hall Pass Donovan GP 26 78 1.035 0.7718

USA 259 Eagle's Eye Fareast 28R 51 1.082 0.756

USA 184 Fearless melges 32 24 1.132 0.8711

USA 2608 Sprint6 GP 26 84 1.025 0.7339

CAN 129 Hard 1 Fareast 28R 51 1.082 0.7443

USA 105 Cougar Melges 30 42 1.098 0.8244

USA 50484 Temptress SR33 69 1.050 0.7453

Thanks, Ryley

From whence the rating for the FE28R?

from hence: https://yachtscoring.com/yacht_results.cfm?Yacht_ID=101642

Forsooth!

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Thank you for adding Wraceboat to the thread title, otherwise I would have skipped over it. I like following the boat. Great product. Wish you the very best.

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Did any of those boats require a full measurement? (Meaning their boat did not have a hull file in ORC) IRC failed in the US, in my opinion, because it type formed and had a high cost or barrier to entry if you went with a full measurement. ORC does not seem to type form as much but still has the high cost or barrier to entry if your hull is not in the database or want to get a full measurement. It would seem that if ORC wanted to get a foothold in the racing game they would want to get a critical mass going and offer incentives for boats to come on board.

Many of the Charleston Boats had full measurements but that is because Dave Hobbs came down and measured a bunch of boats for free one weekend last month. The sole reason to get more boats to participate. Even though we ended up class racing (105s) we got measured and got a an ORC club cert for 100.00. Not really price prohibitive.

 

Matt, What was measured? My point about the price leans more towards boats that do not have a hull file. ORC could be more attractive to those boats if they found a way to mitigate the cost of a full measurement.

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I know that Sprint 6 had the full monty with incline and all. It was great racing yes Beasley sails the shit out that boat. He has a gear that neither us or Hall Pass have at this point. Great group in the class from those that we met and it was quite diverse. I hope they keep this fleet for next year and keep it inside.

 

I can't believe that the SR PHRF rating is correct? We own #3 and have two others here in town and with masthead kites and a 3 sec, main roach penalty we race 69. I believe base rating is 75.

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Tangent had a gift PHRF rating so I am sure it's ORC number was similar. Although I hoped for more a accurate rating. Like Clean said I've seen them sail terrible and still win. I know all the ORC boats they beat and most of them are very well sailed most of the time.

It's hard to handicap a one one-off type boat.

It shouldn't be, according to all the ORC talking. "Science-based, transparent, etc."

Serious question: How do you game a system like this? We know the guy who won the Euros had an actual cheater boat now that that protest has been heard. Is Tangent doing the same thing, or simply lucky they have a boat that rates so well across so many rules?

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yes.

 

 

Or not. Dobbs was pretty careful with his PR. "First regatta in North America to exclusively use ORC for all handicap racing."

 

I tried to disprove it and failed. 2017 KW results below.

Screenshot 2017-04-25 10.04.03.png

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I know that Sprint 6 had the full monty with incline and all. It was great racing yes Beasley sails the shit out that boat. He has a gear that neither us or Hall Pass have at this point. Great group in the class from those that we met and it was quite diverse. I hope they keep this fleet for next year and keep it inside.

 

I can't believe that the SR PHRF rating is correct? We own #3 and have two others here in town and with masthead kites and a 3 sec, main roach penalty we race 69. I believe base rating is 75.

 

What kind of gear does he have that the other two doesn't?

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yes.

 

 

Or not. Dobbs was pretty careful with his PR. "First regatta in North America to exclusively use ORC for all handicap racing."

 

I tried to disprove it and failed. 2017 KW results below.

 

still not true. there was a phrf class at Charleston.

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I know that Sprint 6 had the full monty with incline and all. It was great racing yes Beasley sails the shit out that boat. He has a gear that neither us or Hall Pass have at this point. Great group in the class from those that we met and it was quite diverse. I hope they keep this fleet for next year and keep it inside.

 

I can't believe that the SR PHRF rating is correct? We own #3 and have two others here in town and with masthead kites and a 3 sec, main roach penalty we race 69. I believe base rating is 75.

https://yachtscoring.com/yacht_results.cfm?Yacht_ID=101509

 

I should have probably used 66. Anyway, the point was to make a quick comparison between some ORC numbers and some PHRF numbers to see if things shake out differently. They did, sort of. sometimes. If you want a more in-depth analysis, the results are out there for you to do it.

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Did any of those boats require a full measurement? (Meaning their boat did not have a hull file in ORC) IRC failed in the US, in my opinion, because it type formed and had a high cost or barrier to entry if you went with a full measurement. ORC does not seem to type form as much but still has the high cost or barrier to entry if your hull is not in the database or want to get a full measurement. It would seem that if ORC wanted to get a foothold in the racing game they would want to get a critical mass going and offer incentives for boats to come on board.

Many of the Charleston Boats had full measurements but that is because Dave Hobbs came down and measured a bunch of boats for free one weekend last month. The sole reason to get more boats to participate. Even though we ended up class racing (105s) we got measured and got a an ORC club cert for 100.00. Not really price prohibitive.

 

Matt, What was measured? My point about the price leans more towards boats that do not have a hull file. ORC could be more attractive to those boats if they found a way to mitigate the cost of a full measurement.

 

Will,

 

I believe they did the full measurements with incline and free boards. We had to get our sails measured and a certificate from the sail maker. From what I understand it was enough for the ORCi but not positive (I was on vacation at the time and the other owners took care of it). They did as promotional thing to try and get more boats involved. I think that the normal cost is somewhere in the 8 bucks a foot range for the initial survey.

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yes.

 

 

Or not. Dobbs was pretty careful with his PR. "First regatta in North America to exclusively use ORC for all handicap racing."

 

I tried to disprove it and failed. 2017 KW results below.

 

still not true. there was a phrf class at Charleston.

 

Two pursuit race classes which were handicapped PHRF.

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Tangent had a gift PHRF rating so I am sure it's ORC number was similar. Although I hoped for more a accurate rating. Like Clean said I've seen them sail terrible and still win. I know all the ORC boats they beat and most of them are very well sailed most of the time.

It's hard to handicap a one one-off type boat.

It shouldn't be, according to all the ORC talking. "Science-based, transparent, etc."

Serious question: How do you game a system like this? We know the guy who won the Euros had an actual cheater boat now that that protest has been heard. Is Tangent doing the same thing, or simply lucky they have a boat that rates so well across so many rules?

 

Knowing the owner - a truly great guy - I cannot imagine any foul play with the boat

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Tangent had a gift PHRF rating so I am sure it's ORC number was similar. Although I hoped for more a accurate rating. Like Clean said I've seen them sail terrible and still win. I know all the ORC boats they beat and most of them are very well sailed most of the time.

It's hard to handicap a one one-off type boat.

The only boat that was sailed well aside from tangent was war horse- I was on tangent- have been in her for numerous kwrw and crw regattas, she's been sailed by the same 8 guys for the past 7 years. That said- she's an anomaly- the boat shouldn't do what it does- look at it out of the water- it's a dump truck- but fuck me if you trim her right she goes...

 

The tactics displayed by mooseknuckles and the other 120 were horrible, arrow was dangerous to say the least and I never saw the j36. The other od35 was not up to the pace of war horse and war horse would have done better if she sailed hotter dw- she was too soaked the majority of the time-

 

The boat had a full days worth of measurement by dobbs-

 

I love how if a boat wins, it's the rating- whatever rating it gets, it's gotta be the rating- probably not the 4 generations of sails and the consistent crew year in year out or the boat handling or going the right way.. nah, it's the rating, it's gotta be, right?

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Tangent had a gift PHRF rating so I am sure it's ORC number was similar. Although I hoped for more a accurate rating. Like Clean said I've seen them sail terrible and still win. I know all the ORC boats they beat and most of them are very well sailed most of the time.

It's hard to handicap a one one-off type boat.

It shouldn't be, according to all the ORC talking. "Science-based, transparent, etc."

Serious question: How do you game a system like this? We know the guy who won the Euros had an actual cheater boat now that that protest has been heard. Is Tangent doing the same thing, or simply lucky they have a boat that rates so well across so many rules?

Purely dumb lucky-

The boat is a dump truck- it's faster than it should be- it looks slow, but somehow it's not and it rates stupid well-

 

We pooched a start, yes, sailed for a week to get back to the line- pooched a sambuca, badly, and broke a jib halyard that was fixed in seconds- I'm not sure why it rates out the way it does- but it does- although we went the right way and watched others make tactical errors all week- all but warhorse- those guys sailed well- full respects to them for giving us great boat for boat racing despite the ratings-

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To the people whining about a gift rating, look at the results. Only the top three boats were competitive in that class. The racing among those boats was close, the biggest corrected delta on the second place boat was 1:27 with the average over 8 races being 50 seconds. In a race that typically runs about an hour, if you are honest with yourself you can find 50 seconds over the course of the race that was thrown away because of a missed tack, set, douse, gybe or shift. Tangent looks like they won because they have a solid crew and sailed damn well.

 

I will say that Tangent being close to a one off boat, was very fortunate to have an ORC official there to fully measure the boat. Without that support, other boats that do not have hull files have to shell out $everal thousand dollars to get an ORC cert. If ORC wants to get more boats in they need to bring their price point down. PHRF for all its faults is still cheap by comparison.

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Having watched the racing Fri and Sat on the way in I would be curious to see the results scored a different way. This was the class we would of been in with the sportboat so were very interested.

Was the GP fastest, boat for boat downwind?

Were all boats in planing mode?

I just ran the first race numbers using PHRF TOT in comparison to the Race. I assumed all GP26's had same phrf rating and same for the FE28's.

Finish ORC PHRF TOT

1. Eagle's Eye Rattle N' Rum

2. Rattle n rum Short Bus

3. Hall Pass Hall Pass

4. Hard 1 Eagles Eye

5. Short Bus Fearless

6. Sprint 6 Sprint 6

7. Temptress Hard 1

8. Fearless Cougar

9. Cougar Temptress

 

I don't have time to do the other races right now - yachtscoring isn't conducive to exports - but it looks like TOT would have shaken things up a bit differently.

What PHRF ratings did you use for the various boats?

 

Since I didn't know the distance, I calculated TOT using 650/(550+PHRF), which matched up with one of the boat's TOT allowance. The PHRF numbers all came from looking up the individual boats - all but two had raced at least 1 phrf event. The m32 rating I took from PHRF-NE and I guessed at the other GP26, but have since updated it to 84 since it has an inboard, etc. So this is the list:

 

SailNo Boat Name Boat Type PHRF TOT ORC
USA 2604 Rattle 'n' Rum GP 26 78 1.035 0.764
USA 71221 Short Bus Henderson 30 42 1.098 0.8254
USA 2609 Hall Pass Donovan GP 26 78 1.035 0.7718
USA 259 Eagle's Eye Fareast 28R 51 1.082 0.756
USA 184 Fearless melges 32 24 1.132 0.8711
USA 2608 Sprint6 GP 26 84 1.025 0.7339
CAN 129 Hard 1 Fareast 28R 51 1.082 0.7443
USA 105 Cougar Melges 30 42 1.098 0.8244
USA 50484 Temptress SR33 69 1.050 0.7453

 

Just as an FYI, Eagle's Eye (the first one) was the first ever rated PHRF and the 51 is not a fair rating, even in the heavy air of Nantucket Sound. We can live with it in our local races sailing against the cruising fleet but not in national level events. Every other boat has gotten a much higher rating. If you take a look at events where we've been scored PHRF at 51 against competitive fleets, we're last every race. We not be the best sailors in the world, but we're not last every race either. Frankly, when similarly set up, the 26 and 28 can just about flat race. I think the 28's waterline gives us an edge upwind, despite our aluminum rig. That's "new", we couldn't do it at Key West but we're better tuned now and can hang. Down wind the 26's get out of the well quicker and sails lower, especially when they go bit with the kite, Rattle and Rum being the best example of that. Having sailed against them a few times now, with a few "agreements" on maximums, I think the boats could flat rate race in most conditions. As I said in the article, Beasley and the Rattle Boys out sailed, but we had the tools to go in a straight line with them with because we knew how to make the boat go fast. We just couldn't launch, set and jibe with them, and we were not as smart tactically.

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well, gjbike races his at 54 and seems satisfied in Texas. Are you saying that your boat is NOT as fast as a Farr 30? they rate 54 in PHRF-NE in class configuration. What do you think is a fair rating for the Fareast? if you're saying you should rate even with Rattle n Rum, then you'd end up 6s / mile slower than my Columbia (which is not the carbon), which seems ridiculous for a boat with similar sail area and weighs 2500 lbs less than my boat.

 

I ran the numbers on race 7. The changes are predictable. Eagles Eye goes from 1st to 4th (with either 51 or 54), the M32 wins it, RnR goes from 3rd to 2nd.

 

As far as whether PHRF number is right or not, PHRF-NE confirmed at their latest meeting that they have no intention of following their bylaws and adjusting ratings based on race results, so if you want your rating changed, you'll need to go through the appeals process or it will become permanently 51. I highly recommend you work with your handicapper to get a well-presented rating change appeal together. Also, PHRF-NE is unique in our area in that they won't give you an in-person hearing, they'll simply let you know by email whether your appeal was granted or denied. PHRF-NE are the Vantablack of transparency.

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well, gjbike races his at 54 and seems satisfied in Texas. Are you saying that your boat is NOT as fast as a Farr 30? they rate 54 in PHRF-NE in class configuration. What do you think is a fair rating for the Fareast? if you're saying you should rate even with Rattle n Rum, then you'd end up 6s / mile slower than my Columbia (which is not the carbon), which seems ridiculous for a boat with similar sail area and weighs 2500 lbs less than my boat.

 

I ran the numbers on race 7. The changes are predictable. Eagles Eye goes from 1st to 4th (with either 51 or 54), the M32 wins it, RnR goes from 3rd to 2nd.

 

As far as whether PHRF number is right or not, PHRF-NE confirmed at their latest meeting that they have no intention of following their bylaws and adjusting ratings based on race results, so if you want your rating changed, you'll need to go through the appeals process or it will become permanently 51. I highly recommend you work with your handicapper to get a well-presented rating change appeal together. Also, PHRF-NE is unique in our area in that they won't give you an in-person hearing, they'll simply let you know by email whether your appeal was granted or denied. PHRF-NE are the Vantablack of transparency.

We've written the appeal and gotten a recommendation from the local handicapper to the appeals peeps. Whatever the rating, it ain't 51. We're not as fast as Farr 30. Right now, we owe a Melges 24 52 points, which is bullshit. And a Melges 32 only owes us 20. That's not right, we're dead between the two on waterline, both have higher sail to displacement and sail to ballast ratios, both have carbon rigs, both have super developed tuning and sail programs. The Melges 32 carries 40% more downwind sail area. A fair rating should put us between those two, well skewed toward the 24, and that's what we argued. The GP base racing of 75ish, optimized at 70ish is more fair, though I wouldn't say that's a gift for those guys either. They'll suffer in any time they have to line up against longer water line boats in waves. At any rate, I think we all agree that PHRF does't work, especially not for planing boats. ORC is better, and at least in this fleet, it worked well. You can argue about scrambling the finishes one way or another, but we won when we sailed really well and got shot all the way back when we didn't. That's a pretty good sign.

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eagleseye, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think ORC is a better system for boats like ours. My exercise with the phrf ratings was more less just a mental exercise to see how different the results are from phrf to orc and is in no way supposed to malign (or promote) anyone's sailing or finishes.

 

As far as your appeal goes, which M24 rating are you going by? PHRF-NE is pretty generous with the M24, whereas ECSA and YRA seem to have settled on 84 - 90. Believe me, I have an interest in seeing ORC succeed, but as sailman pointed out they lose once an offset file ends up costing between $500 and $1000 to generate on top of the ORC cert costs themselves.

 

In any case, it sounds like everyone, at least in ORC C, had a good time and recognized the strengths and weaknesses of the boats, the ratings, and the crews. Hopefully your appeal is successful in PHRF-NE - I hate to see new boats penalized simply because they're misunderstood.

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US Sailing PHRF NRRs for some of these boats and related boats:

 

102 - Viper 640 ODR

096 - Melges 24 ODR

090 - Melges 24 PHRF

072 - SR-33 (Henderson)

066 - Viper 830

066 - Columbia 30-2 Sport

054 - Farr/Mumm 30

048 - Flying Tiger 10M

045 - Henderson 30

024 - Melges 32 ODR

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What's the difference between M24 PHRF and M24 ODR? I've never seen the 2 ratings before

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It doesn't specify, but someone else might know.

 

I can ask my US Sailing contact if no one posts an answer.

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What's the difference between M24 PHRF and M24 ODR? I've never seen the 2 ratings before

My best guess is that the PHRF rating reflects a jib/genoa larger than class or one design rules specify.

 

ODR jib meets class specs in terms of overlap.

 

FWIW Lake Michigan PHRF rates M 24s at 90

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yes.

 

 

Or not. Dobbs was pretty careful with his PR. "First regatta in North America to exclusively use ORC for all handicap racing."

 

I tried to disprove it and failed. 2017 KW results below.

 

But that's not the OP. They said it was the first time it has been used at a major North American regatta. There was nothing about "exclusive" in that statement.

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What's the difference between M24 PHRF and M24 ODR? I've never seen the 2 ratings before

Might be a C0 addition or a bigger main and/or kite

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What's the difference between M24 PHRF and M24 ODR? I've never seen the 2 ratings before

My best guess is that the PHRF rating reflects a jib/genoa larger than class or one design rules specify.

 

ODR jib meets class specs in terms of overlap.

 

FWIW Lake Michigan PHRF rates M 24s at 90

 

Usually its something like this. I know for J/109s, ODR rating on the Ches Bay was 75 and was with class jib and 108 chute. PHRF was 69 with 155% genny and 140 chute...

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I don't know how you add a bigger jib. The Class jib sheets inside the shrouds, and chain plates are almost at the edge of the hull. I bought my first M24 in '93 and have never seen or heard of anything other than a M24 ODR. Enquiring minds want to know...

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I don't know how you add a bigger jib. The Class jib sheets inside the shrouds, and chain plates are almost at the edge of the hull. I bought my first M24 in '93 and have never seen or heard of anything other than a M24 ODR. Enquiring minds want to know...

Never heard of it either, but I guess you could add a track aft/inboard of the shrouds. 155% would "curve" around outside of shrouds. An M24 is not that beamy...but don't think you'd point all that well...so not sure it'd by you much...maybe in really lite air?

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I think a M24 rating that is not ODR might have a code 0 or a sail set on the sprit that does not even measure in as a spinnaker.

 

Would be super handy in lighter air cracked off a bit something you might see in around the cans racing.

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=99611

 

 

 

I don't know how you add a bigger jib. The Class jib sheets inside the shrouds, and chain plates are almost at the edge of the hull. I bought my first M24 in '93 and have never seen or heard of anything other than a M24 ODR. Enquiring minds want to know...

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What's the difference between M24 PHRF and M24 ODR? I've never seen the 2 ratings before

My best guess is that the PHRF rating reflects a jib/genoa larger than class or one design rules specify.

 

ODR jib meets class specs in terms of overlap.

 

FWIW Lake Michigan PHRF rates M 24s at 90

 

 

102 here on Buzzards Bay. W/L they suffer in our famous short chop and 15-20knot souwester's going uphill. Point to point or downwind races they are untouchable in planing breeze.

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Here on the Chesapeake the VX One rates even with the M24 - Viper 640 3s/m slower - how is that for screwed up?

 

Even worse - for offwind rating the VX oves time to the M24

 

I did send a letter to the PHRF cmt - let's see if they can get it right

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Send them my spreadsheet link and the NRRs for the Viper 640 and Melges 24. I wouldn't be surprised to see a VX One NRR in the future. I didn't include it before, but the J/70 NRR is 117, for reference.

 

I also think it is a problem when the ODR rules for a boat don't require an outboard, but the local PHRF committee requires one and doesn't give a credit. I am glad that our region doesn't require motors (or lifelines for that matter)!

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Send them my spreadsheet link and the NRRs for the Viper 640 and Melges 24. I wouldn't be surprised to see a VX One NRR in the future. I didn't include it before, but the J/70 NRR is 117, for reference.

 

I also think it is a problem when the ODR rules for a boat don't require an outboard, but the local PHRF committee requires one and doesn't give a credit. I am glad that our region doesn't require motors (or lifelines for that matter)!

I sent them a spreadsheet with M24, V640 and VX One across the country.

 

This shows that the M24 on average is rated 10.8 s/m faster than the VX and the V640 is on average rated 3.2 s/m faster than the VX Only used ratings from areas that have both VX One and either M24 and/or V640 rated to only get relative rating differences not absolute numbers

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Did you do weighted averages too? I found those to be the best reference.

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Did you do weighted averages too? I found those to be the best reference.

I did not

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How do your numbers compare to my bulk spreadsheet?

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How do your numbers compare to my bulk spreadsheet?

Linky?

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Hey Streetwise,

 

Very interesting matrix so thanks for sharing it with the group. It would be interesting to have two more lines at the bottom for MAX and MIN ratings. The hi-lo variance is almost as interesting to me as the weighted average LOL!!

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New version with NRRs:

 

PHRF Sportboat Matrix

In Austin M24 rates 93, J/70 is 111 and VX One is 108.

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New version with NRRs:

 

PHRF Sportboat Matrix

In Austin M24 rates 93, J/70 is 111 and VX One is 108.

 

 

 

Please let me know the boat counts, or if you have ratings and counts for the others.

 

Please make sure your PHRF Committee submits rating updates and new boats to US Sailing PHRF. This is the only way the rest of the country knows what your region is doing. My numbers came from the 2016 book.

 

Cheers

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I'll share my Numbers file if anyone wants to use it as a template to cover some of the bigger sportboats. You might want to pick a different baseline where I use the J/70.

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Roleur,

 

Please send me boat counts. Ratings with zero boats do not contribute to weighted averages. I've updated the PDFs with your data as provided.

 

I hope K2 is still kicking ass, under any name. Your J/120 is a legend on Lake Champlain, like Golden Dazy.

 

Cheers

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Roleur,

 

Please send me boat counts. Ratings with zero boats do not contribute to weighted averages. I've updated the PDFs with your data as provided.

 

I hope K2 is still kicking ass, under any name. Your J/120 is a legend on Lake Champlain, like Golden Dazy.

 

Cheers

I'm not certain of the numbers, but they aren't zero. As best I know, the M24 is 1, the J/70 is 3, and the VX One is 1.

 

Shearwater (ex K2) is going good. Not much racing in the last two years as we've focused on the little boat, but that will change in a few months. It really is a great boat for us.

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Hey Streetwise,

 

Very interesting matrix so thanks for sharing it with the group. It would be interesting to have two more lines at the bottom for MAX and MIN ratings. The hi-lo variance is almost as interesting to me as the weighted average LOL!!

 

 

You're welcome! I added Maximum and Minimum. I also found the counts for Austin.

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Tangent had a gift PHRF rating so I am sure it's ORC number was similar. Although I hoped for more a accurate rating. Like Clean said I've seen them sail terrible and still win. I know all the ORC boats they beat and most of them are very well sailed most of the time.

It's hard to handicap a one one-off type boat.

It shouldn't be, according to all the ORC talking. "Science-based, transparent, etc."

Serious question: How do you game a system like this? We know the guy who won the Euros had an actual cheater boat now that that protest has been heard. Is Tangent doing the same thing, or simply lucky they have a boat that rates so well across so many rules?

 

Clean,

 

You asked the question so I feel like I need to pipe in with my observations. So far with the Bus's experience with ORC has been a mixed one, pretty much got it handed to us in Key West (we were the smallest/lightest boat and had a club cert) and didn't do to bad in Charleston (in a class of light displacement and only a difference in length of 6' between all boats and had an international cert).

 

First off having the boat officially measured helped out on the rating quite a bit (now this is not gaming the system unless you intentionally hide weight or tape batteries to the top of the rig for example). When ORC computes the club cert it assumes the best of everything, like for example an amazing righting moment. I noticed that this really hurt our boat and once we were measured it was amazing the difference in assumed righting moment within the VPP.

 

We have head about what happened at the Euros and I think they tried to cheat the system pretty well, but besides actually moding the boats to have more displacement when measured and not when racing, I think there is something you could do. I took some time to play around with creating trial cert's via the OCR website prior to Key Wet and besides changing standard things like sail areas, the thing that caught be by surprise was how the rating changed when you manipulate crew weight. My initial thought was that more crew weight = more weight = slower boat, well after further review it looks like the VPP can differentiate between the time sailing to weather and sailing downwind. When crew weight is increased your righting moment increases thereby making you faster upwind, you do see a hit downwind, but the computer knows that you are spending more time going upwind than downwind (for us in 20kts its about 60% upwind and 30% downwind). This makes your rating worse (lower number) the more crew weight you add. So assuming you leave your cert at the default crew weight (on our boat it assumes 1119lbs, Charleston cert we claimed 1250lbs, Key West cert we claimed 1350lbs), but sail with actually more weight on the rail or "forget to claim the weight you're sailing at", you would be gaming the system. I noted a difference that the rating dropped by about 4-5 seconds a mile by just adding 200 lbs. Now this might only be a larger issue on boats of lighter displacement as weight placement is more critical than on a big cruiser/racer, but it is still a difference. In close handicap racing like we had in ORC C in Chucktown this could make a difference where a boat comes out. This was just once case study that I did, so take that for what it is worth.

 

I'm sure that if ORC keeps spreading and they are able to have a NA's or even a Worlds here in the next 2 - 3 years (per Dobbs at a ORC round table held at Charleston Race Week) there would be weigh-ins and boat checks to ensure that everyone is sailing to what is claimed on their cert. As of this moment I'm leaning more to ORC than PHRF and I say that because it takes out human bias. Its funny to me how a Hendo in the PNW rates 54 then I bring it to the Chesapeake Bay and it all of a sudden rates 42. All I can say is that physics are physics, they work where ever you are on the planet, not more so in one area than the other. Additionally both rating systems assume the same thing, well sailed, clean bottom, good sails; however PHRF will say "we are changing your rating because so and so a long time ago kicked some ass and the boat wasn't rated correctly" or that "you have been out-sailing everyone for the past couple of years (not us by the way) and your rating needs to be adjusted". Anyway I digress....

 

The one down fall to ORC is cost. Club cert will run you around $100, International cert is around $8-$10 a foot but you also have to get measured and that's whatever the measurer will charge you. This will then turn into a game of who pays more, but once measured you don't have to do it again unless you mod something. You can run trial certs all day for about 10 bucks a pop and see what will happen to your rating if you change this or that; rather than waiting for a group of people to get in a room once every 3-4 months, dawn there robes, recite their chants, light their candles, and pay their tribute to the rating gods.

 

Cheers

 

PS - Whoever wants to win a trophy by cheating, you're a bit of a douche bag!

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I am familiar with IRC and ORR. What is ORC?

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