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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Meat Wad

N2E a bust, Break up US Sailing

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My guess for the Future of the N2E, based on the US Sailing SER, is that it will continue to die off.

 

Short course, Long course, Classic Course........................bla bla bla

 

if NOSA does not address the USS SER perceptions, for what is really a nearshore race, the N2E will never recover from it's hayday. It really is a Nearshore Race.......You cannot legislate Stupid.

 

Why do the East Coast know it all's, tell the West Coast what is needed for West Coast Racing?????

 

This is the perfect opportunity for the West Coast to petition WS for it's own MNA. US Sailing has long out lived it's usefulness.

 

This goes to many events on the West Coast of the USA.

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Ya be like KWYW

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Ya be like KWYW

 

When was the last time you raced?

 

you damn well the answer is never ever in his whole life

 

why not just tell him to FO?

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Ya be like KWYW

 

When was the last time you raced?

 

 

 

never seen one

 

what would i know

 

except if you say West Coast Sucks .......................

 

you must like the East Coast

 

or yer just a hater

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So let me get this straight. US Sailing publishes the SER, and you're pissed off at them because your OA used a level you don't think is appropriate? Isn't it up to the OA to decide what SER to apply to their race? Sounds like you want a new OA.

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Does anyone know what Meat is talking about?

 

Meat might. There's odds somewhere. Probably.

 

 

Most OA are afraid to go against the RNA US Sailing.

Most races here in So Cal are near shore but are rated Coastal and that has pushed many of the smaller boats out. Just too much shit and $$ to meet the SER too race to Ensenada. Even the short 75 mile jaunt from SB to KH is classified coastal race.

 

The USA is too big for one org like USS to govern. There is just too much diversity or areas.

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Does anyone know what Meat is talking about?

 

Meat might. There's odds somewhere. Probably.

 

 

Most OA are afraid to go against the RNA US Sailing.

Most races here in So Cal are near shore but are rated Coastal and that has pushed many of the smaller boats out. Just too much shit and $$ to meet the SER too race to Ensenada. Even the short 75 mile jaunt from SB to KH is classified coastal race.

 

The USA is too big for one org like USS to govern. There is just too much diversity or areas.

 

 

"coastal" and "offshore" definitions of boats are just bullshit marketing terms, anyway, vying to get people killed. There is no such thing as a "coastal" boat. Once the conditions have turned you're straight up fucked in a race for survival like anybody else still stuck out there. Conditions are nearly always worse near the coast, anyway. On the shelf the waters rougher, coastal current is stronger, and there's less sea room in a blow. bay of biscay - coastal or offshore? It's a meaningless definition invented by marketing schmucks to sell light-to-moderately built boats to inexperienced buyers afraid of rain showers.

 

But lets get down to the real issue here: if you're sweating the costs of safety equipment and design requirements (like collision bulkheads, flotation, etc) - then how are you pimping a fair bottom, an inventory of crisp sails, and healthy rigging to be competitive? The costs have always kept me out. It sucks but I don't think we can blame US Sailing for keeping people out who have a higher appetite for risk than self preservation.

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Does anyone know what Meat is talking about?

 

Meat might. There's odds somewhere. Probably.

 

 

Most OA are afraid to go against the RNA US Sailing.

Most races here in So Cal are near shore but are rated Coastal and that has pushed many of the smaller boats out. Just too much shit and $$ to meet the SER too race to Ensenada. Even the short 75 mile jaunt from SB to KH is classified coastal race.

 

The USA is too big for one org like USS to govern. There is just too much diversity or areas.

 

 

"coastal" and "offshore" definitions of boats are just bullshit marketing terms, anyway, vying to get people killed. There is no such thing as a "coastal" boat. Once the conditions have turned you're straight up fucked in a race for survival like anybody else still stuck out there. Conditions are nearly always worse near the coast, anyway. On the shelf the waters rougher, coastal current is stronger, and there's less sea room in a blow. bay of biscay - coastal or offshore? It's a meaningless definition invented by marketing schmucks to sell light-to-moderately built boats to inexperienced buyers afraid of rain showers.

 

But lets get down to the real issue here: if you're sweating the costs of safety equipment and design requirements (like collision bulkheads, flotation, etc) - then how are you pimping a fair bottom, an inventory of crisp sails, and healthy rigging to be competitive? The costs have always kept me out. It sucks but I don't think we can blame US Sailing for keeping people out who have a higher appetite for risk than self preservation.

 

 

I think you are a going a bit over board (collision bulkheads), this is not the VOR. But I like the last sentence.

 

"It sucks but I don't think we can blame US Sailing for keeping people out who have a higher appetite for risk than self preservation. "

 

The USS SER have pushed many 30' to 24' out of the coastal classic So Cal races. These boats are raced by people who have been around a long time. and 99% of the time they are sailed in very tame conditions. This is not the Bay of Biscay, I know what you are talking about.

 

I do understand what you are saying. But I grew up on a knot meter, compass and a radio directional finder for navigation. Now they do require a chart, but no knotmeter? How do you navigate when the ele goes down? The USS SER are designed for litigation and not real safety. Because as I said and you understand, "You cannot legislate stupid".

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you got it. idiots are ruining everything, and they keep multiplying. I'd love to show up in a pimped out Folkboat with a giant middle finger painted on the spinnaker. #dreams

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My guess for the Future of the N2E, based on the US Sailing SER, is that it will continue to die off.

 

Short course, Long course, Classic Course........................bla bla bla

 

if NOSA does not address the USS SER perceptions, for what is really a nearshore race, the N2E will never recover from it's hayday. It really is a Nearshore Race.......You cannot legislate Stupid.

 

Why do the East Coast know it all's, tell the West Coast what is needed for West Coast Racing?????

 

This is the perfect opportunity for the West Coast to petition WS for it's own MNA. US Sailing has long out lived it's usefulness.

 

This goes to many events on the West Coast of the USA.

Now you may not know this but the USS safety reqs were actually brought to life by a west coast contingent.

 

The resulting reqs are pretty worthless and I am sorry that some peeps on the left coast thought they could do a much better job than ORC in creating safety reqs - and IMHO failed miserably

 

But at least do not try blaming the east coast for this

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This part of the thread is about three years behind what has happened in my part of the world.

 

Fleet nos for long coastal races had fallen from 60 to less than 30 and other races were not growing notwithstanding huge growth in the nos of eligible boats.

 

Proposal by small nos of owners was taken to National Authority to radically cut the cost of 4 biggest expenses in safety.

 

Namely communication, rafts, stability and personal equipment.

 

Also the "one size fits all" mentality was an issue.

 

Unfortunately stupid people made it a debate about "category" not about "cost" which of course missed the point entirely.

 

Luckily one club went their own way and adopted the suggestions and more as are looking to double their fleet number in just two years.

 

Hopefully others will follow.

 

So tell the administrators to get fucked and let the owners decide.

 

The owners spend their own money and I have yet to see an administrator spend their own money to maintain an offshore race boat.

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And for anyone who skipped going to Mexico fo r Safety reasons

 

8 victims shot by a pool in condo apartments in the UTC area of DAGO

 

= 5 miles North of Mission Bay and across the freeway from LA Jolla

 

Wadda Fucked-Up World

 

Shooter will Not go to trial

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This part of the thread is about three years behind what has happened in my part of the world.

 

Fleet nos for long coastal races had fallen from 60 to less than 30 and other races were not growing notwithstanding huge growth in the nos of eligible boats.

 

Proposal by small nos of owners was taken to National Authority to radically cut the cost of 4 biggest expenses in safety.

 

Namely communication, rafts, stability and personal equipment.

 

Also the "one size fits all" mentality was an issue.

 

Unfortunately stupid people made it a debate about "category" not about "cost" which of course missed the point entirely.

 

Luckily one club went their own way and adopted the suggestions and more as are looking to double their fleet number in just two years.

 

Hopefully others will follow.

 

So tell the administrators to get fucked and let the owners decide.

 

The owners spend their own money and I have yet to see an administrator spend their own money to maintain an offshore race boat.

 

 

The situation here was Not helped by

 

2 boats with experienced crews in familiar waters RUNNING INTO HUGE MOFO ROCKS

 

so logic says "More Rule's and Regulations Must be Needed"

 

This is the land of Attorneys

 

Tighten Up Everything so No one gets Sued

 

Every boat Not there is Not a Risk

 

Lucky people are allowed to Surf anymore :unsure:

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The stupid thing is that a whole lot less people get sued if you have less rules.

 

The problem with lots of rules is that the rules set a very high standard which is very easy to breach so you get sued for a breach of a ridiculously high standard.

 

We need to lower standards not increase them.

 

Ironically, in Australia this is been lead by AMSA as somebody smart there has worked out if they require very high rules as to equipment etc if they don't inspect and enforce they get sued first as they have government money.

 

So they are running a hundred mph the other way saying it is all up to the owner that way only the owner gets sued.

 

This of course is beyond the little brains of administrators.

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40 years ago Newport to Ensenada used to get 600 boats. We used RDF and paper charts, most of the time my boat didn't even have a working radio. Everybody was fine with it and we had a good time, nobody died.

Now everybody has GPS, plot charters and autopilots, the "cruising class" gets to use motors and some losers run into the F'ing Coronado Island and die. No wonder race organizers keep adding to the safety equipment list and making us take SAS courses. People need to learn seamanship instead buying a big boat and pushing a couple of buttons without a clue.

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40 years ago Newport to Ensenada used to get 600 boats. We used RDF and paper charts, most of the time my boat didn't even have a working radio. Everybody was fine with it and we had a good time, nobody died.

Now everybody has GPS, plot charters and autopilots, the "cruising class" gets to use motors and some losers run into the F'ing Coronado Island and die. No wonder race organizers keep adding to the safety equipment list and making us take SAS courses. People need to learn seamanship instead buying a big boat and pushing a couple of buttons without a clue.

 

 

Said crew that ran into the Coronado island are Not Poster Boys for the proliferation of Electronics as a Safety measure

 

In Fact Owner/Skipper worked for the company making said equipment and understood it as much as possible

 

One might Hope a Radar would talk with the Chart Plotter and Auto Pilot

 

AND someone on lookout would at least Notice That BIG Chunk of Rock Dead Ahead

 

But Nooooooooooo They Had Everything you could have and More (Except a lookout)

 

So require More Stuff

 

 

Hurts to look at this Pic even more, every-time

 

IOAB.jpg

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Just be clear, the force behind the creation of the US SER is a true Californian. The US SER was not invented by East Coasters (this time)!

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Each time we step aboard a boat we command 5,000+ years of technological development and how that relates to tides, weather, seasons, and the turning of the ancient night skies. Next to cooking with fire, there are few technologies with the same level of refinement of boats and celestial navigation techniques to guide them. With that technology, and also like fire, there is an oral corpus of knowledge that's been passed down through several hundreds of generations. The plight of man and the sea is embedded in our language and our common phrases, each seafaring cultural having regional influences carefully woven into their identities. But when one of us might say something like "the sea commands respect!" or "never turn your back on the ocean", or countless other common knowledge truisms, the meaning of the words falling on modern ears somehow has no value until a group of unfortunates validates its truths with lives lost. In each case we look to external controls, to rules, to bureaucracy to deter us from risk and to prevent catastrophe, shunning what we already knew but refuse to acknowledge.

My step father drowned at a Pacifica beach a couple years ago now, and the sneaker wave that pulled my mother out to sea with him following in to rescue nearly got her, too. She lived. He had a crippled leg but he went in after her, anyway. Go to the same beach now and what might you find if not for small children playing in the same spot they were sucked out, all of them with their backs to the water? I'm sure there's a warning sign posted at the very spot. Life's funny, isn't it.

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This part of the thread is about three years behind what has happened in my part of the world.

 

Fleet nos for long coastal races had fallen from 60 to less than 30 and other races were not growing notwithstanding huge growth in the nos of eligible boats.

 

Proposal by small nos of owners was taken to National Authority to radically cut the cost of 4 biggest expenses in safety.

 

Namely communication, rafts, stability and personal equipment.

 

Also the "one size fits all" mentality was an issue.

 

Unfortunately stupid people made it a debate about "category" not about "cost" which of course missed the point entirely.

 

Luckily one club went their own way and adopted the suggestions and more as are looking to double their fleet number in just two years.

 

Hopefully others will follow.

 

So tell the administrators to get fucked and let the owners decide.

 

The owners spend their own money and I have yet to see an administrator spend their own money to maintain an offshore race boat.

 

 

The situation here was Not helped by

 

2 boats with experienced crews in familiar waters RUNNING INTO HUGE MOFO ROCKS

 

so logic says "More Rule's and Regulations Must be Needed"

 

This is the land of Attorneys

 

Tighten Up Everything so No one gets Sued

 

Every boat Not there is Not a Risk

 

Lucky people are allowed to Surf anymore :unsure:

 

If you had any clue what you are talking about you would know that the USS safety reqs cooked up be left coast sailors are actually a lot less stringent than the ORC ones. Maybe stopping commenting about something which you have clearly absolutely no fucking idea about would be a good way to go instead of just flapping your gums in the breeze just because you want to see your non-informed post on the interweb

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This part of the thread is about three years behind what has happened in my part of the world.

 

Fleet nos for long coastal races had fallen from 60 to less than 30 and other races were not growing notwithstanding huge growth in the nos of eligible boats.

 

Proposal by small nos of owners was taken to National Authority to radically cut the cost of 4 biggest expenses in safety.

 

Namely communication, rafts, stability and personal equipment.

 

Also the "one size fits all" mentality was an issue.

 

Unfortunately stupid people made it a debate about "category" not about "cost" which of course missed the point entirely.

 

Luckily one club went their own way and adopted the suggestions and more as are looking to double their fleet number in just two years.

 

Hopefully others will follow.

 

So tell the administrators to get fucked and let the owners decide.

 

The owners spend their own money and I have yet to see an administrator spend their own money to maintain an offshore race boat.

 

 

The situation here was Not helped by

 

2 boats with experienced crews in familiar waters RUNNING INTO HUGE MOFO ROCKS

 

so logic says "More Rule's and Regulations Must be Needed"

 

This is the land of Attorneys

 

Tighten Up Everything so No one gets Sued

 

Every boat Not there is Not a Risk

 

Lucky people are allowed to Surf anymore :unsure:

 

If you had any clue what you are talking about you would know that the USS safety reqs cooked up be left coast sailors are actually a lot less stringent than the ORC ones. Maybe stopping commenting about something which you have clearly absolutely no fucking idea about would be a good way to go instead of just flapping your gums in the breeze just because you want to see your non-informed post on the interweb

 

 

 

So you are trying to say the situation Was helped by

 

I'm humbled :lol:

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Each time we step aboard a boat we command 5,000+ years of technological development and how that relates to tides, weather, seasons, and the turning of the ancient night skies. Next to cooking with fire, there are few technologies with the same level of refinement of boats and celestial navigation techniques to guide them. With that technology, and also like fire, there is an oral corpus of knowledge that's been passed down through several hundreds of generations. The plight of man and the sea is embedded in our language and our common phrases, each seafaring cultural having regional influences carefully woven into their identities. But when one of us might say something like "the sea commands respect!" or "never turn your back on the ocean", or countless other common knowledge truisms, the meaning of the words falling on modern ears somehow has no value until a group of unfortunates validates its truths with lives lost. In each case we look to external controls, to rules, to bureaucracy to deter us from risk and to prevent catastrophe, shunning what we already knew but refuse to acknowledge.

 

My step father drowned at a Pacifica beach a couple years ago now, and the sneaker wave that pulled my mother out to sea with him following in to rescue nearly got her, too. She lived. He had a crippled leg but he went in after her, anyway. Go to the same beach now and what might you find if not for small children playing in the same spot they were sucked out, all of them with their backs to the water? I'm sure there's a warning sign posted at the very spot. Life's funny, isn't it.

 

 

 

Montara?

 

Sorry to hear of the loss.

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Went to the SAS seminar a couple years back for the Transpac. One little factoid stuck with me.

 

More people had died on Coastal California races in (at that time) the last couple of years than died in the Fastnet and Syd-Hobart tragedy, combined.

 

Thats both NorCal and SoCal.

 

We can bitch about "but it was pilot error"!

 

It always is.

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Agree with Razr = the last few racing related deaths were at the hands of rocks (Farralon, San Clemente, Coronados). The blue water racers rarely hit rocks - which explains why the lawyers probably required the upgrades in safety. Seems a bit ridiculous since we have all sailed for years without it, but then we didn't drive with seatbelts or airbags for years - but do now.

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Went to the SAS seminar a couple years back for the Transpac. One little factoid stuck with me.

 

More people had died on Coastal California races in (at that time) the last couple of years than died in the Fastnet and Syd-Hobart tragedy, combined.

 

Thats both NorCal and SoCal.

 

We can bitch about "but it was pilot error"!

 

It always is.

 

 

Agree with Razr = the last few racing related deaths were at the hands of rocks (Farralon, San Clemente, Coronados). The blue water racers rarely hit rocks - which explains why the lawyers probably required the upgrades in safety. Seems a bit ridiculous since we have all sailed for years without it, but then we didn't drive with seatbelts or airbags for years - but do now.

 

 

the Christians are gunna hate on you for being logical and on topic !! :mellow:

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Just be clear, the force behind the creation of the US SER is a true Californian. The US SER was not invented by East Coasters (this time)!

 

 

Went to the SAS seminar a couple years back for the Transpac. One little factoid stuck with me.

 

More people had died on Coastal California races in (at that time) the last couple of years than died in the Fastnet and Syd-Hobart tragedy, combined.

 

Thats both NorCal and SoCal.

 

We can bitch about "but it was pilot error"!

 

It always is.

 

Thank you both. I wish I had more time to contemplate and respond. I was at Jury Duty all day and now find my self on a week long (projected) criminal trial. Oh boy, I will do my civic duty.

 

 

Glen, I would love to know who the West Coast Group (contacts) that were involved are. They need to be talked too about their actions.

 

RazR, like I said, "You cannot legislate STUPID."

 

I fear Small Boat (30' to 24') Coastal Sailing is dead for the foreseeable future until something is done with the USS SER.

 

give me a week.

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Just be clear, the force behind the creation of the US SER is a true Californian. The US SER was not invented by East Coasters (this time)!

Went to the SAS seminar a couple years back for the Transpac. One little factoid stuck with me.

 

More people had died on Coastal California races in (at that time) the last couple of years than died in the Fastnet and Syd-Hobart tragedy, combined.

 

Thats both NorCal and SoCal.

 

We can bitch about "but it was pilot error"!

 

It always is.

Thank you both. I wish I had more time to contemplate and respond. I was at Jury Duty all day and now find my self on a week long (projected) criminal trial. Oh boy, I will do my civic duty.

 

 

Glen, I would love to know who the West Coast Group (contacts) that were involved are. They need to be talked too about their actions.

 

RazR, like I said, "You cannot legislate STUPID."

 

I fear Small Boat (30' to 24') Coastal Sailing is dead for the foreseeable future until something is done with the USS SER.

 

give me a week.

Take a look at what BAMA is doing with the double handed farallones. Lots of outreach, coast guard at the mandatory pre-race meetings ng, etc. working on safety without it being burdensome.

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Just be clear, the force behind the creation of the US SER is a true Californian. The US SER was not invented by East Coasters (this time)!

 

 

Went to the SAS seminar a couple years back for the Transpac. One little factoid stuck with me.

 

More people had died on Coastal California races in (at that time) the last couple of years than died in the Fastnet and Syd-Hobart tragedy, combined.

 

Thats both NorCal and SoCal.

 

We can bitch about "but it was pilot error"!

 

It always is.

 

Thank you both. I wish I had more time to contemplate and respond. I was at Jury Duty all day and now find my self on a week long (projected) criminal trial. Oh boy, I will do my civic duty.

 

 

Glen, I would love to know who the West Coast Group (contacts) that were involved are. They need to be talked too about their actions.

 

RazR, like I said, "You cannot legislate STUPID."

 

I fear Small Boat (30' to 24') Coastal Sailing is dead for the foreseeable future until something is done with the USS SER.

 

give me a week.

 

 

 

Wear a SA Hoddie and a NRA Hat and don't pack a Lunch as you can eat at home :)

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Blaming low N2E participation on SER makes only slightly more sense than blaming it on their not advertising on SA.

 

Read the category definitions, N2E is clearly Coastal. And other than the requirement for a newish VHF and an EPIRB it doesn't seem like there would be that much additional expense for the average boat. Heck, NOSA doesn't even make you buy PFD leg straps...

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Blaming low N2E participation on SER makes only slightly more sense than blaming it on their not advertising on SA.

 

Read the category definitions, N2E is clearly Coastal. And other than the requirement for a newish VHF and an EPIRB it doesn't seem like there would be that much additional expense for the average boat. Heck, NOSA doesn't even make you buy PFD leg straps...

 

 

Blame goes 100% with the ending of the BCYC Party's

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Just be clear, the force behind the creation of the US SER is a true Californian. The US SER was not invented by East Coasters (this time)!

 

 

Went to the SAS seminar a couple years back for the Transpac. One little factoid stuck with me.

 

More people had died on Coastal California races in (at that time) the last couple of years than died in the Fastnet and Syd-Hobart tragedy, combined.

 

Thats both NorCal and SoCal.

 

We can bitch about "but it was pilot error"!

 

It always is.

 

Thank you both. I wish I had more time to contemplate and respond. I was at Jury Duty all day and now find my self on a week long (projected) criminal trial. Oh boy, I will do my civic duty.

 

 

Glen, I would love to know who the West Coast Group (contacts) that were involved are. They need to be talked too about their actions.

 

RazR, like I said, "You cannot legislate STUPID."

 

I fear Small Boat (30' to 24') Coastal Sailing is dead for the foreseeable future until something is done with the USS SER.

 

give me a week.

 

 

Having prepped a 23'9" boat for coastal and offshore sailing, I don't think any thing in the SER is that hard to meet. Do I love having 18" lifeline, no, but it its that hard to have two sets (bay and ocean). With new triducers (temp, depth and speed) you only need one thru-hull. Renting a raft and EPIRB are not that big of a deal.

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Just be clear, the force behind the creation of the US SER is a true Californian. The US SER was not invented by East Coasters (this time)!

 

 

Went to the SAS seminar a couple years back for the Transpac. One little factoid stuck with me.

 

More people had died on Coastal California races in (at that time) the last couple of years than died in the Fastnet and Syd-Hobart tragedy, combined.

 

Thats both NorCal and SoCal.

 

We can bitch about "but it was pilot error"!

 

It always is.

 

Thank you both. I wish I had more time to contemplate and respond. I was at Jury Duty all day and now find my self on a week long (projected) criminal trial. Oh boy, I will do my civic duty.

 

 

Glen, I would love to know who the West Coast Group (contacts) that were involved are. They need to be talked too about their actions.

 

RazR, like I said, "You cannot legislate STUPID."

 

I fear Small Boat (30' to 24') Coastal Sailing is dead for the foreseeable future until something is done with the USS SER.

 

give me a week.

 

 

Having prepped a 23'9" boat for coastal and offshore sailing, I don't think any thing in the SER is that hard to meet. Do I love having 18" lifeline, no, but it its that hard to have two sets (bay and ocean). With new triducers (temp, depth and speed) you only need one thru-hull. Renting a raft and EPIRB are not that big of a deal.

 

 

I remember back in the day NOSA published their own N2E safety requirements and as I recall they required some form of a raft. SER Coastal requirements don't, and I don't see anything in N2E NOR or SIs that add it--so for N2E I don't think a raft is required unless doing the Long Course.

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Well, I am sworn in and my days are gone for the next 4 to 5 days. Jury Duty.

 

Blaming low N2E participation on SER makes only slightly more sense than blaming it on their not advertising on SA.

Read the category definitions, N2E is clearly Coastal. And other than the requirement for a newish VHF and an EPIRB it doesn't seem like there would be that much additional expense for the average boat. Heck, NOSA doesn't even make you buy PFD leg straps...

 

I saw that and I think that is one reg that is really amiss. For me being a Paraplegic, Leg straps are a good thing for the life jacket.

 

 

Having prepped a 23'9" boat for coastal and offshore sailing, I don't think any thing in the SER is that hard to meet. Do I love having 18" lifeline, no, but it its that hard to have two sets (bay and ocean). With new triducers (temp, depth and speed) you only need one thru-hull. Renting a raft and EPIRB are not that big of a deal.

 

 

There is a huge difference between Coastal and Offshore. HUGE DIFFERENCE

 

 

I remember back in the day NOSA published their own N2E safety requirements and as I recall they required some form of a raft. SER Coastal requirements don't, and I don't see anything in N2E NOR or SIs that add it--so for N2E I don't think a raft is required unless doing the Long Course.

 

 

I remember going to Kmart and buying a Selvor raft in the 80's

 

One thing you guys have to remember.

You are trying to pull from a huge pile of So Cal boats.
People start reading the USS SER, NOR, SI and say FUCK THIS SHIT. It just aint worth it.

It's not just the equipment requirements. Now it's like 2/3 of your crew have to pay to got to some safety seminar that US Sailing requires just to sail to Mexico which more than half the So Cal boats have already done. Most say FUCK THAT.

 

I'm not sure what the answer is but legislation is not the answer, unless you are an Attorney.

 

here is another example of stupid.

 

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Having prepped a 23'9" boat for coastal and offshore sailing, I don't think any thing in the SER is that hard to meet. Do I love having 18" lifeline, no, but it its that hard to have two sets (bay and ocean). With new triducers (temp, depth and speed) you only need one thru-hull. Renting a raft and EPIRB are not that big of a deal.

 

"There is a huge difference between Coastal and Offshore. HUGE DIFFERENCE"

 

 

I stand behind my comment that getting a 24' boat ready for Offshore is not that hard. I think we spent a weekend or two getting the offshore gear together for pac cup.

 

 

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I am an East Coast sailor and I don't think it wise for East Coaster's to tell West Coaster's how to run their events, or what events to have. They know their Ocean and a hell of a lot better that we know their Ocean, and vice versa. As for boats, I have a Hobie 33 and think that the West Coaster's leading the charge for planing sailboats is a result of them KNOWING THEIR OCEAN. And sailing is better off for their contributions.

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"It's not just the equipment requirements. Now it's like 2/3 of your crew have to pay to got to some safety seminar that US Sailing requires just to sail to Mexico which more than half the So Cal boats have already done. Most say FUCK THAT."

 

I have to agree with Meat Wad quoted above. I started sailing Mexico races when I was 12 years old, Hawaii to SD at 14; SD to Acapulco at 16; 17 times SD to Ensenada; 10 times N2E; 14 times Mdr2SD; now have a 1600 ton USCG license with STCW, Advanced Shipboard Firefighting, Radar Observer, Bridge Resource Mgmt, GMDSS, etc. and I'm still supposed to take two days and pay for SAS class before I can do the same things I was doing as a teenager. BULLSHIT!

 

And yes, I called to see if the above certified IMO training was acceptable instead of SAS and was told a flat "No". Somehow I don't remember seeing the SAS class listed on an IMO white paper as Internationally Certified.

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"It's not just the equipment requirements. Now it's like 2/3 of your crew have to pay to got to some safety seminar that US Sailing requires just to sail to Mexico which more than half the So Cal boats have already done. Most say FUCK THAT."

 

I have to agree with Meat Wad quoted above. I started sailing Mexico races when I was 12 years old, Hawaii to SD at 14; SD to Acapulco at 16; 17 times SD to Ensenada; 10 times N2E; 14 times Mdr2SD; now have a 1600 ton USCG license with STCW, Advanced Shipboard Firefighting, Radar Observer, Bridge Resource Mgmt, GMDSS, etc. and I'm still supposed to take two days and pay for SAS class before I can do the same things I was doing as a teenager. BULLSHIT!

 

And yes, I called to see if the above certified IMO training was acceptable instead of SAS and was told a flat "No". Somehow I don't remember seeing the SAS class listed on an IMO white paper as Internationally Certified.

Actually for the N2E race this is the requirement that the OA chose to adopt:

At least 30% of those aboard the boat, but not fewer than two members of the crew, unless racing single handed, including the person in charge, shall have attended a half-day, one-day, or two- day US Sailing Safety at Sea Seminar within the last 5 years, including online courses when available, or other courses as accepted by US Sailing or other national authority.

 

Not as you have described it. Also the one day course can now be completed on line. Someone else qustioned whether US SAS training meets any international standard and the two day course is certified ny World Sailing as meeting the 2 day training requirement required by many Ocean Races.

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I like the new rules. I like that those who are too good to take them will be leaving. Buh-bye!

 

I've never taken a class that was a waste of time, and I'm 60. It sounds like the difference between my classes and your classes is that I'm in my classes.

 

Have a nice life!

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I've learned something from every class but resent being forced to take classes that duplicate or are less comprehensive than those which I'm legally required to take to maintain my license.

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I've learned something from every class but resent being forced to take classes that duplicate or are less comprehensive than those which I'm legally required to take to maintain my license.

 

 

I've looked into getting my captains cert. Will likely pursue, but can say the SAS syllabus is quite different from the captains stuff.

 

1 of the days is all hands on stuff. In the water, in a raft, righting a flipped raft, sinking in your personal gear. Firefighting (we had actual firefighters there), signaling with flares, handheld, rockets, etc. We also had a guest speaker, a survivor from the LowSpeedChase incident.

 

The captains stuff is all book learning.

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I've learned something from every class but resent being forced to take classes that duplicate or are less comprehensive than those which I'm legally required to take to maintain my license.

 

I suggest you drop out of races that require classes in protest. We'll wave buh-bye as we leave the dock, and you can go back to the bar and watch the tracker.

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"1 of the days is all hands on stuff. In the water, in a raft, righting a flipped raft, sinking in your personal gear. Firefighting (we had actual firefighters there), signaling with flares, handheld, rockets, etc. We also had a guest speaker, a survivor from the LowSpeedChase incident.

 

The captains stuff is all book learning."

 

You know not of what you speak...

Just so you understand STCW Basic is 5 days, not one day. Two days of firefighting with everything from handheld extinguishers to 2" hoses and SCBA gear (with actual firefighters and real fire), one full day of water survival including righting life raft, life jackets, survival suits; One full day of first aid.

Advanced shipboard firefighting is five days of fighting fires in full gear as well as small fires with handhelds, but I'm sure one whole day covers much more than 10 days of full time classes and hands on.

 

I'm sure the SAS class will be fun, just pissed off it takes a couple of days off work, plus travel.

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"1 of the days is all hands on stuff. In the water, in a raft, righting a flipped raft, sinking in your personal gear. Firefighting (we had actual firefighters there), signaling with flares, handheld, rockets, etc. We also had a guest speaker, a survivor from the LowSpeedChase incident.

 

The captains stuff is all book learning."

 

You know not of what you speak...

Just so you understand STCW Basic is 5 days, not one day. Two days of firefighting with everything from handheld extinguishers to 2" hoses and SCBA gear (with actual firefighters and real fire), one full day of water survival including righting life raft, life jackets, survival suits; One full day of first aid.

Advanced shipboard firefighting is five days of fighting fires in full gear as well as small fires with handhelds, but I'm sure one whole day covers much more than 10 days of full time classes and hands on.

 

I'm sure the SAS class will be fun, just pissed off it takes a couple of days off work, plus travel.

 

my mistake.

 

I was thinking the beginners captain thing

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That's OK Raz'r most people have no idea what's involved in getting and keeping a license current. If you get a license and want it to be valid on international voyages (even to Canada or Mexico) you will need to take the 5 day STCW Basic and Bridge Resource Management. Without those additional classes your license will be marked "Domestic Use Only".

If you progress to a higher tonnage ocean license (500 ton or 1600 ton) you will need Celestial Navigation, Flashing lights, Radar Observer, ARPA (if vessel so equipped),Advanced Shipboard Firefighting, GMDSS (ten days as opposed to five days for other listed), Medical Person in Charge, and Crowd control, in addition to additional sea time and testing.

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I've learned something from every class but resent being forced to take classes that duplicate or are less comprehensive than those which I'm legally required to take to maintain my license.

I suggest you drop out of races that require classes in protest. We'll wave buh-bye as we leave the dock, and you can go back to the bar and watch the tracker.

This attitude is not good for anyone, yourself included. In case you hadn't noticed, races are generally better with more, not less, participants. If there is indeed a silent group of sailors dropping out of races due to these regulations, it would be good for everyone to seriously consider how to bring them back.

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I've learned something from every class but resent being forced to take classes that duplicate or are less comprehensive than those which I'm legally required to take to maintain my license.

I suggest you drop out of races that require classes in protest. We'll wave buh-bye as we leave the dock, and you can go back to the bar and watch the tracker.

This attitude is not good for anyone, yourself included. In case you hadn't noticed, races are generally better with more, not less, participants. If there is indeed a silent group of sailors dropping out of races due to these regulations, it would be good for everyone to seriously consider how to bring them back.

 

 

Tell you what, bro. I'll decide what's good for me.

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Wow, Jammer is grumpy

 

 

I miss GRUMPY

 

but that waz before yer time ^_^

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