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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
Dark Cloud

Australian Sailing

95 posts in this topic

If there was ever any doubt about the intentions of Australian Sailing (formerly YA) there aint now.

 

Why should keelboat owners and sailors alike, who prop up the ailing yacht clubs around the country, be forced to subsidise what is purely a pursuit of govt dollars for the purposes of lining their pockets at the pretence of Olympic success. Who really gives a fuck, about the Olympics - apart from the spoilt competitors.

 

 

Former Sydney Roosters and South Sydney rugby league club chief executive John Lee has landed the top job at Australian Sailing.

Lee, who left the Roosters last month, replaces Matt Carroll as chief executive of the sport and will be charged with ensuring Australia maintains its recent record of success — the country won medals in four of the seven events at the Rio Olympics.

“I’m very pleased to be joining Australian Sailing and representing a sport I have followed and admired for many years,” Lee said.

“This is a great opportunity and I’m looking forward to working with the clubs, classes and state associations. There has been great work done by (president) Matt Allen and all involved on delivering the One Sailing reforms, a new national structure in place and strong working relationships with the state associations and clubs, which together we’ll build on.

“I’m excited to be working with the management and athletes of the Australian sailing team as they prepare for Tokyo 2020.’’

Carroll resigned last month to take up a position as chief executive of the Australian Olympic Committee.

“It’s a time of consolidation and application to gain the benefits of a national administration and John’s extensive knowledge and leadership, particularly in sport, will serve us well for the challenges ahead,” Allen said.

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Cloud you are in the running for the international idiot thread of the millennium..that's right your lining up for gold. ...go do some research on funding sources of YA, then the ASC and finally the AOC and then where the money goes towards yachting in Australia....you will be very surprised you turnip....if not then you are a disgruntled badminton troll.

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And JS, how does AS help or contribute to keelboat sailing ?

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So JS, you are in Qld what are you getting for your $73.00 a year?

Assuming you are only a member of one club!

And please don't say the insurance without reading the policy

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It's part of a longer term strategy that sees the influence of Sailing extend through the sporting powerbase......first we get Plympton on as many boards as possible, then bring Bertrand in via....wait for it.....Swimming!! Caroll follows Plympton and stakes out his position....then we bring in someone from Rugby with ambition to sew the seeds for global domination....

On a related issue - It'll be interesting to see how Coates goes with the vote.

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Couta...

 

Coates and the AOC do what exactly?

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While the crony based outrageous appointment system remains we will always suffer a National body that is an extention of the AOC, that press release says it all. The gravy train event perks,free food and drink is too good to shy away from, with silly things like grass roots sailing matters and member concerns!

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Not just sailing, try looking at Rugby where nothing is spent on grass roots and everything invested in the Wallabies. As well as the CEO and others in the Ivory Tower on over $750k per year.

 

Its time they realised it is not a business they are running, as business's don't have people running BBQ's and Canteens to raise money

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Not just sailing, try looking at Rugby where nothing is spent on grass roots and everything invested in the Wallabies. As well as the CEO and others in the Ivory Tower on over $750k per year.

 

Its time they realised it is not a business they are running, as business's don't have people running BBQ's and Canteens to raise money

The cross over between Hill$ong & these corps are almost identical. Get the grass roots working their arses off with volunteer community spirit goodwill, bleed till dry then repeat, while the fat cats demand and expect first class everything gratis to save spending the mere pittence thay are paid... in 6figure+ salaries.

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The Erin Molon- Anthony Bell story has knocked this story otf the front page of the Australian.

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The Erin Molon- Anthony Bell story has knocked this story otf the front page of the Australian.

I hope channel 7, will at least, put your piece to camera on YouTube for us.

 

You'll have to update the "Rich white guy wins Yacht Race" story for 2017 with some additional material about "then allegedly unlocks doors with knives" for us LB15.

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To be fair to AS - they don't bleed the members for Olympic money - they seem to do a decent job of firewalling the Olympic (taxpayer) coin from member dollars. Its just they don't actually give a flying rats arse about the grass roots.

 

With 90% of the money being olympic - why would you?

 

The real issue is the anti-competitive monopoly they own on Sailing (and the rules) in Australia, via ISAF. The ACCC should get of their arses and look into that, if they want to be useful.

 

The 'fostering sailing, we lurve our members' AS puts out is just a smokescreen to fool the Fed Govt into believing AS represents sailors.

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The Erin Molon- Anthony Bell story has knocked this story otf the front page of the Australian.

 

The ex certainly is going full-bitch. Never go full-bitch.

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And JS, how does AS help or contribute to keelboat sailing ?

What do you want AS to do for you and keelboat sailing?

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And JS, how does AS help or contribute to keelboat sailing ?

What do you want AS to do for you and keelboat sailing?

 

Its a system whereby a bunch of ludicrously overpaid bureaucrats sends a dozen or so well paid, overly protected sailors,

some selected on a spurious basis, to a bunch of junkets throughout the 4 year Olympic cycle and then sends them to the Olympics, that's what.

 

They do that knowing that the rest of sailing will continue to exist on a diet of sausage sizzles and volunteers sweat.

They couldn't give a flying fuck about grass roots keel boat sailing.

Just look at their recent Australian Championship Regatta in Sydney which barely existed but was given vast net publicity coverage to spin the sailing public into believing it was an event of some magnitude. Cunts, the lot of 'em

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I have also been critical of the split of funds and attention between Olympic and grass roots sailing, But I have looked at the AS annual reports for a few years and its easy to see why it is so. Most of AS's money comes from Olympic funding not from members, clubs or class associations. So most of their expenditure and effort goes in that direction too.

 

I am not sure our sport needs the Olympics either, but for now thats how it is.

 

What the rest of us get might not seem like much, but we do get a standard set of systems and rules so that we can all sail together on the same water and know where we stand wrt right of way etc. If we had a fragmented collection of associations we would inevitably end up with a fragmented collection of right of way rules, as each new expert thinks they can make a better wheel. A bit like the 5 different football codes we have in Australia. They all started as soccer 250 years ago. We also can go to regattas overseas and sail against other people under the same system. Thats well worth the cost as far as I am concerned.

 

Clubs and classes can get help with rules seminars, regatta paperwork, liason with government waterways autorities, and PR. All available on request. Most of us do not bother asking.

 

The keelboat people also get their measurement and rating system, and their Ocean racing safety standards, without which there would almost certainly be a much more cumbersome compulsary government version.

 

Its not that bad when you look into the details a bit more closely.

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And JS, how does AS help or contribute to keelboat sailing ?

What do you want AS to do for you and keelboat sailing?
Its a system whereby a bunch of ludicrously overpaid bureaucrats sends a dozen or so well paid, overly protected sailors,

some selected on a spurious basis, to a bunch of junkets throughout the 4 year Olympic cycle and then sends them to the Olympics, that's what.

 

They do that knowing that the rest of sailing will continue to exist on a diet of sausage sizzles and volunteers sweat.

They couldn't give a flying fuck about grass roots keel boat sailing.

Just look at their recent Australian Championship Regatta in Sydney which barely existed but was given vast net publicity coverage to spin the sailing public into believing it was an event of some magnitude. Cunts, the lot of 'em

I don't disagree with most of what you say, although I know there are a few non cunts involved in the whole circus. Also a few really A-grade cocks to balance it out.

I don't see what YA can do for most sailors.

They provide the rules and regs for racing, which benefits a section of the sailing community. I like a lot of their training stuff too, although the rigidity becomes less useful the further you are from a metro area.

Whenever I ask anyone what ya could do, above what they already do, there are crickets, other than wanting to get rid of the bloated Olympic bullshit.

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Phil, Rant -- I agree with both of you.

 

What irks me is the pretence of actually caring or doing anything for the non-olympic sailor. Each year we talk to our regional AS rep, and he promises it will be better this time.

 

Just lower the fees, let us use the rules and fuck off.

 

Don't pretend you're providing anything more than that.

 

Don't hobble us with your ridiculous member registration system (which we're forced to use if we want the insurance to be valid or our members want to sail in any interclub events)

 

Don't strangle us with endless mandatory accreditation for our volunteer trainers which costs a shitload of money.

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And JS, how does AS help or contribute to keelboat sailing ?

What do you want AS to do for you and keelboat sailing?
Its a system whereby a bunch of ludicrously overpaid bureaucrats sends a dozen or so well paid, overly protected sailors,

some selected on a spurious basis, to a bunch of junkets throughout the 4 year Olympic cycle and then sends them to the Olympics, that's what.

 

They do that knowing that the rest of sailing will continue to exist on a diet of sausage sizzles and volunteers sweat.

They couldn't give a flying fuck about grass roots keel boat sailing.

Just look at their recent Australian Championship Regatta in Sydney which barely existed but was given vast net publicity coverage to spin the sailing public into believing it was an event of some magnitude. Cunts, the lot of 'em

I don't disagree with most of what you say, although I know there are a few non cunts involved in the whole circus. Also a few really A-grade cocks to balance it out.

I don't see what YA can do for most sailors.

They provide the rules and regs for racing, which benefits a section of the sailing community. I like a lot of their training stuff too, although the rigidity becomes less useful the further you are from a metro area.

Whenever I ask anyone what ya could do, above what they already do, there are crickets, other than wanting to get rid of the bloated Olympic bullshit.

 

Im not sure their training is compliant with regards to national coaches accreditation any more, so training might not be the be all and end all either.

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Holy fuck! A thread putting shit on YA has got to 20 posts and not a word from lydia. I hope he is ok...

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Holy fuck! A thread putting shit on YA has got to 20 posts and not a word from lydia. I hope he is ok...

aaHMM...... pssst ....... see post #5

 

 

He's doin' ok ;)

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and post #4 !!!!!!!

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There's a common theme here between countries. At least in the US and Australia, it seems the majority of racing sailors at minimum find their national authorities wasteful and many find them counter productive to enjoyment of and beneficial for the sport. The real question is what to do about it.

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Phil, Rant -- I agree with both of you.

 

What irks me is the pretence of actually caring or doing anything for the non-olympic sailor. Each year we talk to our regional AS rep, and he promises it will be better this time.

 

Just lower the fees, let us use the rules and fuck off.

 

Don't pretend you're providing anything more than that.

 

Don't hobble us with your ridiculous member registration system (which we're forced to use if we want the insurance to be valid or our members want to sail in any interclub events)

 

Don't strangle us with endless mandatory accreditation for our volunteer trainers which costs a shitload of money.

Agree Dunc. And Rant, if they want to pretend they care, then perhaps they can, by engaging relevant govt marine agencies and councils, groups etc, to give the relatively small community of yachties a voice to get better facilities and infrastructure for boats - the BIA do this more on a runabout/boat ramp level. Someone has to fight the fucking greenies

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Holy fuck! A thread putting shit on YA has got to 20 posts and not a word from lydia. I hope he is ok...

aaHMM...... pssst ....... see post #5

 

 

He's doin' ok ;)

I think lydia let a sock escape the drawer by mistake while cleaning up and then Cloud stole it's identity and is now channelling lydia. I'm not too sure how long lydia will accept that defacto transfer of opinion. He has already called upon wal. Cloud needs to be on his game if he intends going alone on this mdebate.

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It's true  - i have/am his sock.  And I demand AS post me my IRC cert without the cost of a taxi from far north QLD to Melb added on top.

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Well done Phil S, you are defending the Sailing Arsehats and you sail a class which in it's history has never affiliated and does not appear to done so even now according to the Arsehat website.

As to the other stuff, we have a fragmented set of rules because of peak body inaction as each states has a different approach to the Col Regs and RRs problem.

Let alone the states where the Col Regs breach is a criminal offence which voids insurance. RRs don't mean much.

Government liason has worked well seeing you still can't  legally trail a sports boat or an Etchell is three states. Again no insurance.

Name one instance where our peak body has delivered on a national level in the past decade.

And we don't get a keel boat measurement , we pay for that separately at up to 100% mark up compared to the UK.

Next.

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Hey guys, if it makes you feel any better the RYA (GBR) isn't much better.

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I should say that a few of us are getting things changed by making the Arsehats irrelevant and helping the clubs do their own thing for their own members.

And top marks to the club administrators who have had the guts to do it.

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On 5/4/2017 at 0:23 PM, huwp said:

Im not sure their training is compliant with regards to national coaches accreditation any more, so training might not be the be all and end all either.

What are you talking about???

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53 minutes ago, CaptainAhab said:

What are you talking about???

Ncas accreditation? It was required at one stage, but tbh I didn't feel like it added anything new. 

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Lydia are you talk about the overhangs problems with TS and etchels? 

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Aust Moth Association pays affilliation fee to AS every year, I know because I was class secretary for 7 years. If the AS web site does not say so then there is a web page problem. We do not pay to state YAs because we deem having state moth associations irrelevant in the modern electronic age.

It seems that AS is working to get rid of them too, which should streamline a lot of funtions. They are changing things, not always for the best but I am sure that they are listenning to the critism from the grass roots. 

The best way for the critics to do something is to stand for office and do the job themselves, what admin or management have you done for the sport  Lydia?

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Funnily enough, I spend quite a bit of time on sailing administration each week, and most of it is dealing with issues AS do not want to touch or trying to get ordinary sailors value for their sailing dollar.

As for standing for office you clearly do not understand One Sailing which of course carries with it the great irony that AS will now have to deal with all the state based issues it always ran a hundred miles from or not deal with them at all leaving no body representing sailors to deal with them.

 

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Here's the next move, full crew lists to be provided for all inshore races "in the name of safety" presumably in case the skipper doesn't know who it was who was injured? it is just a bonus that this will enable the clubs to enforce all crew to be AS members. No real problem with the concept, but a further pain in the ass to make racing all too hard.

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there is much bullshittery in this country hiding behind the guise of 'safety'

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3 hours ago, Rawhide said:

Here's the next move, full crew lists to be provided for all inshore races "in the name of safety" presumably in case the skipper doesn't know who it was who was injured? it is just a bonus that this will enable the clubs to enforce all crew to be AS members. No real problem with the concept, but a further pain in the ass to make racing all too hard.

Are you serious? Surely not - is that your club's idea?

 

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I heard it the other night from a sailing office flunky keen to ingratiate himself with the powers that be who was reporting back from some AS meeting.

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4 minutes ago, mccroc said:

Are you serious? Surely not - is that your club's idea?

 

I'm aghast too P, but agree it's more likely something AS "suggested" - and no doubt the ulterior motive is...as listed above.

 

 

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Doesn't go nearly far enough....all sailors participating in any club based on-water activity should be forced to wear an electronic anklet to ensure traceability of everyone on club grounds.....for safety...Oh! and anklets are registered and linked directly to paypal accounts with scanners on the docks to ensure nobody goes on the water without paying their dues to the club, state & national bodies!!! Yeah, and then we'll see our sport flourish!!! (safely!)

FFS - I find less reason to sail at the major clubs every time I visit. More bureaucracy, more politics,more money grabs, more powerboats and underused cruisers, more wankers who take themselves way too seriously, fewer yachts, fewer laughs.....less fun.

 

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On 5/7/2017 at 8:02 AM, lydia said:

I should say that a few of us are getting things changed by making the Arsehats irrelevant and helping the clubs do their own thing for their own members.

And top marks to the club administrators who have had the guts to do it.

+1

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1 hour ago, DickDastardly said:

I'm aghast too P, but agree it's more likely something AS "suggested" - and no doubt the ulterior motive is...as listed above.

 

 

Yeap already in at our club, along with storm sails to be to carried for harbour racing. AIS to follow shortly, maybe 2018.

Just having a 2-3 hour club race on a Sat afternoon is becoming too hard.  

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So at a club I sail we are headed to the situation where only club members can sail on the boats of club members.

Of course no one has the guts to come out and say this but it is achieved by stealth.

So as of 1 May all gate key tags are turned off. (It was not uncommon for people to have a keycard for each car so multiple key cards which I would otherwise lend to crew dropping gear at the boat for instance)

You now only get access by a single membership card, no duplicates issued.

No crew access or passes to get to the marina and to a members boat.

We are not talking about bar rights here.

After 3 club races a person sailing in a race must join the club.

So only 2 of my 8 guys are club members and 6 are members at the club next do. (So no Arsehat issue and everyone has a AS membership nos.)

Of the 8 we have a pathologist, a sail maker, a cabinet maker, lawyer, manager of a large printing company so not exactly drug fucked layabouts except the lawyer.

But apparently these people cannot be trusted to pass through the gate and walk  along the marina to my boat.

I am now required to attend the front door pick everyone up in my car and drive through the grounds to the marina and to the boat or otherwise escort them through the grounds.

So 2 trip for me sometimes 3 with gear in the truck.

I would be hard to make it any more difficult to go sailing for a day.

So the prohibition on entry is not far away, not withstanding I am the member and I pay my fees and these people are my guests.

Of course requesting crew names has been tried in the past at this club with the response that most boats just sail at other clubs/events now and by-pass the place.

Last weekend they had a whole 6 boats sail in a premier club event.

You reap what you sow!

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So on a different topic namely, your contribution to your State Association and then the Arsehats, anyone asked their club how much of your yearly fee is going to the peak bodies this year.

Most clubs will not say what they are paying and say it is just part of your membership fee and you can't know, but very curious as to the range across the country.

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Don't know why they wouldn't disclose if asked.. ours goes in the annual report every year for all to see.

 

worked out about the same as it used to ($50/adult, $25/child) last FY

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Dunc, the range is now getting embarrassing.

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2 hours ago, lydia said:

So at a club I sail we are headed to the situation where only club members can sail on the boats of club members.

Thats a smart way to make it easier to get crew

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9 hours ago, Rawhide said:

Here's the next move, full crew lists to be provided for all inshore races "in the name of safety" presumably in case the skipper doesn't know who it was who was injured? it is just a bonus that this will enable the clubs to enforce all crew to be AS members. No real problem with the concept, but a further pain in the ass to make racing all too hard.

Same requirements at a recent season debrief at one* of my clubs. All about ensuring all onboard are insured! (No other YA/SA benefits apparently)

Have you read the YA/SA policy? The Tiger Airways of insurance.

*Note I have 3 clubs forking out to YA/SA on my behalf.

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From a US perspective, what is preventing a group of racing sailors from forming their own insurance co-op in your country and then ignoring your governing body?

and why can't you form your own club(s) that have nothing to do traditional clubs. Keep your boat at your club, but race under the new club.

i he the part about parking passes for non members, lots of clubs have that issue. But they are restricting parking to one membership card, how on earth do they deal with a husband and wife who come in separate cars?

good to know somewhere else is as, or more, fucked up than is sailing in the US.

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50 minutes ago, Mad Mac said:

Same requirements at a recent season debrief at one* of my clubs. All about ensuring all onboard are insured! (No other YA/SA benefits apparently)

Have you read the YA/SA policy? The Tiger Airways of insurance.

*Note I have 3 clubs forking out to YA/SA on my behalf.

What you really mean is that you are making 3 contributions to AS but only one set of benefits.

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4 hours ago, lydia said:

So on a different topic namely, your contribution to your State Association and then the Arsehats, anyone asked their club how much of your yearly fee is going to the peak bodies this year.

Most clubs will not say what they are paying and say it is just part of your membership fee and you can't know, but very curious as to the range across the country.

I have been a member of at least 6 sailing clubs in Australia and every one of them disclosed the Affiliation fees to members.

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Random, so what is the range or they all the same?

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6 minutes ago, lydia said:

Random, so what is the range or they all the same?

I don't recall them all over the decades, but they were always listed, that was my point.

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On 2017-5-12 at 3:29 PM, lydia said:

So at a club I sail we are headed to the situation where only club members can sail on the boats of club members.

Of course no one has the guts to come out and say this but it is achieved by stealth.

So as of 1 May all gate key tags are turned off. (It was not uncommon for people to have a keycard for each car so multiple key cards which I would otherwise lend to crew dropping gear at the boat for instance)

You now only get access by a single membership card, no duplicates issued.

No crew access or passes to get to the marina and to a members boat.

We are not talking about bar rights here.

After 3 club races a person sailing in a race must join the club.

So only 2 of my 8 guys are club members and 6 are members at the club next do. (So no Arsehat issue and everyone has a AS membership nos.)

Of the 8 we have a pathologist, a sail maker, a cabinet maker, lawyer, manager of a large printing company so not exactly drug fucked layabouts except the lawyer.

But apparently these people cannot be trusted to pass through the gate and walk  along the marina to my boat.

I am now required to attend the front door pick everyone up in my car and drive through the grounds to the marina and to the boat or otherwise escort them through the grounds.

So 2 trip for me sometimes 3 with gear in the truck.

I would be hard to make it any more difficult to go sailing for a day.

So the prohibition on entry is not far away, not withstanding I am the member and I pay my fees and these people are my guests.

Of course requesting crew names has been tried in the past at this club with the response that most boats just sail at other clubs/events now and by-pass the place.

Last weekend they had a whole 6 boats sail in a premier club event.

You reap what you sow!

What the fuck is wrong with these people :angry:

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On 12/05/2017 at 3:29 PM, lydia said:

So at a club I sail we are headed to the situation where only club members can sail on the boats of club members.

Of course no one has the guts to come out and say this but it is achieved by stealth.

So as of 1 May all gate key tags are turned off. (It was not uncommon for people to have a keycard for each car so multiple key cards which I would otherwise lend to crew dropping gear at the boat for instance)

You now only get access by a single membership card, no duplicates issued.

No crew access or passes to get to the marina and to a members boat.

We are not talking about bar rights here.

After 3 club races a person sailing in a race must join the club.

So only 2 of my 8 guys are club members and 6 are members at the club next do. (So no Arsehat issue and everyone has a AS membership nos.)

Of the 8 we have a pathologist, a sail maker, a cabinet maker, lawyer, manager of a large printing company so not exactly drug fucked layabouts except the lawyer.

But apparently these people cannot be trusted to pass through the gate and walk  along the marina to my boat.

I am now required to attend the front door pick everyone up in my car and drive through the grounds to the marina and to the boat or otherwise escort them through the grounds.

So 2 trip for me sometimes 3 with gear in the truck.

I would be hard to make it any more difficult to go sailing for a day.

So the prohibition on entry is not far away, not withstanding I am the member and I pay my fees and these people are my guests.

Of course requesting crew names has been tried in the past at this club with the response that most boats just sail at other clubs/events now and by-pass the place.

Last weekend they had a whole 6 boats sail in a premier club event.

You reap what you sow!

You should complain with reasons to the next meeting.  Then at the AGM.  If that does not work you should join an alternative club if there is one.

I moved on from a local club because they were only interested in bar sales and not boat sails.

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Members are not allowed at meetings, only the AGM which usually lasts about 10 minutes.

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Sounds like the thread has changed from a AS bashing exercise to a big club bashing exercise. Is this where the problem really exists? My small club charges $65 as the AS affiliations fee. Same as my previous 2 clubs over about last 15 years. And its common in dinghy clubs that all sailors are members and AS affilliates.

 

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Nobody is bashing anyone here, I just want value for my money and right now i don't see i get it.

And secondly i don't bullshit excuses like the insurance or whatever to conscript people to pay more than they should for very little benefit.

Especially as I am a member of 4 clubs so get four times the cost and not four times the benefit.

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On 2017-5-12 at 3:29 PM, lydia said:

So at a club I sail we are headed to the situation where only club members can sail on the boats of club members.

Of course no one has the guts to come out and say this but it is achieved by stealth.

So as of 1 May all gate key tags are turned off. (It was not uncommon for people to have a keycard for each car so multiple key cards which I would otherwise lend to crew dropping gear at the boat for instance)

You now only get access by a single membership card, no duplicates issued.

No crew access or passes to get to the marina and to a members boat.

We are not talking about bar rights here.

After 3 club races a person sailing in a race must join the club.

So only 2 of my 8 guys are club members and 6 are members at the club next do. (So no Arsehat issue and everyone has a AS membership nos.)

Of the 8 we have a pathologist, a sail maker, a cabinet maker, lawyer, manager of a large printing company so not exactly drug fucked layabouts except the lawyer.

But apparently these people cannot be trusted to pass through the gate and walk  along the marina to my boat.

I am now required to attend the front door pick everyone up in my car and drive through the grounds to the marina and to the boat or otherwise escort them through the grounds.

So 2 trip for me sometimes 3 with gear in the truck.

I would be hard to make it any more difficult to go sailing for a day.

So the prohibition on entry is not far away, not withstanding I am the member and I pay my fees and these people are my guests.

Of course requesting crew names has been tried in the past at this club with the response that most boats just sail at other clubs/events now and by-pass the place.

Last weekend they had a whole 6 boats sail in a premier club event.

You reap what you sow!

Fuck that is a good recipe for turning a sailing club into a country club that doesn't believe in reciprocity. In this electronic day and age they could give skippers access cards for crews who are SA subscribers at another club where that card only works on race days. Obviously those running the place don't sail and are clueless. If they won't correct this isn't the solution for sailors to take back control of their club before they join the endangered species list.

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Affiliation fees have been done in "Bands" for a while, clubs get placed into bands basically on how many members they have, the clubs can handle this fee how they like, which most seem to divvy it up on a per head number, if membership increases they may be put up a band the following year. In the past it was an individual payment per member when they were registered. Here's a list of bands from a few years ago - couldn't see a recent one, http://websites.sportstg.com/get_file.cgi?id=35655640

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Not all states banded.

How many members does Sandringham have?

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On 12/05/2017 at 3:29 PM, lydia said:

So at a club I sail we are headed to the situation where only club members can sail on the boats of club members.

Of course no one has the guts to come out and say this but it is achieved by stealth.

So as of 1 May all gate key tags are turned off. (It was not uncommon for people to have a keycard for each car so multiple key cards which I would otherwise lend to crew dropping gear at the boat for instance)

You now only get access by a single membership card, no duplicates issued.

No crew access or passes to get to the marina and to a members boat.

We are not talking about bar rights here.

After 3 club races a person sailing in a race must join the club.

So only 2 of my 8 guys are club members and 6 are members at the club next do. (So no Arsehat issue and everyone has a AS membership nos.)

Of the 8 we have a pathologist, a sail maker, a cabinet maker, lawyer, manager of a large printing company so not exactly drug fucked layabouts except the lawyer.

But apparently these people cannot be trusted to pass through the gate and walk  along the marina to my boat.

I am now required to attend the front door pick everyone up in my car and drive through the grounds to the marina and to the boat or otherwise escort them through the grounds.

So 2 trip for me sometimes 3 with gear in the truck.

I would be hard to make it any more difficult to go sailing for a day.

So the prohibition on entry is not far away, not withstanding I am the member and I pay my fees and these people are my guests.

Of course requesting crew names has been tried in the past at this club with the response that most boats just sail at other clubs/events now and by-pass the place.

Last weekend they had a whole 6 boats sail in a premier club event.

You reap what you sow!

Mate, it's $40/month for crew membership. Sounds like your guys could afford that.

Seriously,  if I want to play club footy, I can't just roll up and get a full time spot in the golden oldies on the basis that l'm a friend of another player and I'm a member of another club. Sure, maybe a game or two, but more than that and you are bludging off the other members. If you want to play for the club, you join. What's so special about sailing that this shouldn't apply?

There are a lot of problems with AS and our club, but this isn't one of them.

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It wasn't that long ago that the President of YQ proposed to charge all sailors approx AUD180, to cover YA affiliation, bypassing the clubs.

It didn't get up thank god, but that fee represented nearly 3 times the fee that clubs were paying for members at that time.

His reasoning was that clubs would lower their fees by the equivalent amount...

And he was the President ffs!

Big clubs like Lydias club dont really want riff raff coming into 'their' club. Thats why they have 3 fences and security gates!

Members only if you don't mind.

That is a common fault in the bigger clubs in AUS, in general.

 

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1 hour ago, greasy al said:

Mate, it's $40/month for crew membership. Sounds like your guys could afford that.

Seriously,  if I want to play club footy, I can't just roll up and get a full time spot in the golden oldies on the basis that l'm a friend of another player and I'm a member of another club. Sure, maybe a game or two, but more than that and you are bludging off the other members. If you want to play for the club, you join. What's so special about sailing that this shouldn't apply?

There are a lot of problems with AS and our club, but this isn't one of them.

Hey i am the one that turns up and pays, end of story, they are guests on my boat.

They are not racing their own boats in your precious club events.

If they bludging off anyone it is me.

And how exactly are they bludging off other members by walking from the gate to the marina, really.

You also miss the point I am not talking about your club events because we don't play those but then again who does. 

We go and play in other people events because gee i don't know, they have a better products many of  which we like to buy.

Stop drinking the Koolaid.

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2 hours ago, cosmicsedso said:

It wasn't that long ago that the President of YQ proposed to charge all sailors approx AUD180, to cover YA affiliation, bypassing the clubs.

It didn't get up thank god, but that fee represented nearly 3 times the fee that clubs were paying for members at that time.

His reasoning was that clubs would lower their fees by the equivalent amount...

And he was the President ffs!

Big clubs like Lydias club dont really want riff raff coming into 'their' club. Thats why they have 3 fences and security gates!

Members only if you don't mind.

That is a common fault in the bigger clubs in AUS, in general.

 

Interesting point: Sandringham Y C in Melbourne lets casual keel boat crew race up to 6 times at $15 fee which entitles the guest to visit the bar as a guest of their skipper and enjoy a free drink on the day. After 6 of those visits, the Club requires that person to sign up for a membership but that can be at Crew Member level and that's not too financially onerous. They even discount the selected level of membership by the 6 x $15 casual crewing fees they have paid. 

But the best thing they have done in recent years is piss off the forbidding "Members Only" sign and replace it with a fucking big, cheery, colourful, can't miss it sign that says 'Welcome"

Sure, we have riff-raff in our midst but so then does every club, yacht or otherwise. We like to think we have a better class of riff raff than most.

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Problem world-wide is getting getting regular turn-up crew these days many who are young and money an issue for them. The older ones are at kids soccer. Any hurdle put in front of that by Clubs under the pretext of security or exclusivity just makes it harder for owners. Many owners just give up and the outcome is obvious. If security is an issue that can be sorted. It is not as though crews (who are members of other clubs and insured) are bludging off other members and are teetotallers and not contributing to the club's coffers. The only ones bludging off members are owners who regularly participate in club events, take home the prizes but squeal when it is suggested they become members.

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50 minutes ago, Last Post said:

Interesting point: Sandringham Y C in Melbourne lets casual keel boat crew race up to 6 times at $15 fee which entitles the guest to visit the bar as a guest of their skipper and enjoy a free drink on the day. After 6 of those visits, the Club requires that person to sign up for a membership but that can be at Crew Member level and that's not too financially onerous. They even discount the selected level of membership by the 6 x $15 casual crewing fees they have paid. 

But the best thing they have done in recent years is piss off the forbidding "Members Only" sign and replace it with a fucking big, cheery, colourful, can't miss it sign that says 'Welcome"

Sure, we have riff-raff in our midst but so then does every club, yacht or otherwise. We like to think we have a better class of riff raff than most.

Intresting thing last post is most clubs have members who are riff raff and worst and shouldn't even be allowed to be a member of any club and some non paying crews who do more to participate in the sport and the club they are sailing out off as a guess. 

Its intresting to have  a look at who's around the your club and what they say and do and then go and watch the John Williamson play / movie "The Club" then look around your club again and pick who is who out of the movie. 

Pulpit

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I would have thought "Downfall  " would have been more appropriate.

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12 hours ago, lydia said:

Members are not allowed at meetings, only the AGM which usually lasts about 10 minutes.

AGMs come around fast enough.  Email your concerns and role up at the AGM.

You have tow choices.  Do the above ... or leave the club.  If you leave, you should at least have made an attempt to make change.

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Not so simple, that is what happens when clubs stop being clubs and just be boat storage facilities

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You are over complicating it.

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3 hours ago, lydia said:

Hey i am the one that turns up and pays, end of story, they are guests on my boat.

They are not racing their own boats in your precious club events.

If they bludging off anyone it is me.

And how exactly are they bludging off other members by walking from the gate to the marina, really.

You also miss the point I am not talking about your club events because we don't play those but then again who does. 

We go and play in other people events because gee i don't know, they have a better products many of  which we like to buy.

Stop drinking the Koolaid.

I am not on the koolaid. I don't like the structure or politics of the club or the governing body any more than you.

that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of thousands of people pay their subs, membership, subscription or whatever you want to call it to play club sports every season. Why are your guests so special that they don't need to join the club where they play?

Hell if you don't like the club and don't do their events, why do you stay? Use your market power to go to the clubs offering better product.

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54 minutes ago, lydia said:

Not so simple, that is what happens when clubs stop being clubs and just be boat storage facilities

Fuck you have gone from AS fees to boat storage arrangements at your Club. You sound quite intelligent so why can't  you join the dots? Get off your arse and be a change agent at your Club Lydia..otherwise you are just another do nothing moaner and groaner. Do that and you might be surprised at the response from those silent to date like-minded and the powers at be at your Club. You don't want to get off the couch for whatever reason..simple ..leave the joint.

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On 5/15/2017 at 10:34 PM, jack_sparrow said:

Fuck you have gone from AS fees to boat storage arrangements at your Club. You sound quite intelligent so why can't  you join the dots? Get off your arse and be a change agent at your Club Lydia..otherwise you are just another do nothing moaner and groaner. Do that and you might be surprised at the response from those silent to date like-minded and the powers at be at your Club. You don't want to get off the couch for whatever reason..simple ..leave the joint.

I doubt Lydia could be surprised any more.

Jack. It's easy to say 'be a change agent'. As one who has done that numerous times, I'm here to tell you that one person will not change anything at the club in question. Traditions and myths live long and prosper at most of the 'Royals'.

Sandy YC is a really good example of how to provide what their members really need, and also, how to actually listen to those members.

This is evidenced by the changes taking place to the facilities of the club over the last 2 decades, AND their rising membership numbers.

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JS

I have been a director of the major club entity (the one that makes all the money anyway)

So settle down.

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On 5/15/2017 at 10:16 PM, greasy al said:

I am not on the koolaid. I don't like the structure or politics of the club or the governing body any more than you.

that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of thousands of people pay their subs, membership, subscription or whatever you want to call it to play club sports every season. Why are your guests so special that they don't need to join the club where they play?

Hell if you don't like the club and don't do their events, why do you stay? Use your market power to go to the clubs offering better product.

Hey Al do you want to buy my white shoes and cap for opening day? I won't need them again because you can front General Committee looking like you are unemployed in the modern era. 

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On 5/15/2017 at 9:30 PM, random said:

AGMs come around fast enough.  Email your concerns and role up at the AGM.

You have tow choices.  Do the above ... or leave the club.  If you leave, you should at least have made an attempt to make change.

Making change is nearly impossible there. There is a block of votes that vote with the incumbent Commodore and most members don't know or couldn't give a fuck about the issues. The place now has over 1000 social members and most energy is put into creating bogan events to get them coming back to swill the house wine. The killer queen revival band night, the Beatles tribute band and the German October fest night just to name a few. It is now an RSL and wedding venue with a marina in front of it.

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If it's the place I think it is, I chose to leave.  But I have hundreds of stories.

We were running late for a start and I'd forgotten to get lunch.  Shit.  Rocked up to the club bar/eatery, knocked to get attention.

"Yes?"

Me: "Can I buy five ham and salad rolls please?"

(There were four staff within view, having a chat in the kitchen, one had his arse plonked on the bench where the food was prepared, feet up on a stool).

"Nuh, sorry, kitchen isn't open yet."

Me: "I would really appreciate it if you could knock something up, we need to leave soon"

"Nuh, comeback in 10 minutes".

Me: "How about 5 Mars bars?

"..... crickets ....".

We had to cast off but I wouldn't have bought anything from the lazy pricks anyway after that.  Never did again.

 

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Greasy

You miss the point, we don't play there, the boat is just kept there.

We don't do club events and  we don't go to the bar there.

We might if the product was better but it is not.

They have even withdrawn from the regular combined clubs events because they are so special. 

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I used to do the Combined Clubs from there, withdrawn hey, typical.

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looking sharp greasy..

paramount-01467-Full-Image_GalleryBackground-en-US-1484348645479._SX940_.jpg

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On 5/15/2017 at 6:49 PM, Last Post said:

Interesting point: Sandringham Y C in Melbourne lets casual keel boat crew race up to 6 times at $15 fee which entitles the guest to visit the bar as a guest of their skipper and enjoy a free drink on the day. After 6 of those visits, the Club requires that person to sign up for a membership but that can be at Crew Member level and that's not too financially onerous. They even discount the selected level of membership by the 6 x $15 casual crewing fees they have paid. 

But the best thing they have done in recent years is piss off the forbidding "Members Only" sign and replace it with a fucking big, cheery, colourful, can't miss it sign that says 'Welcome"

Sure, we have riff-raff in our midst but so then does every club, yacht or otherwise. We like to think we have a better class of riff raff than most.

That's all good but the reality is that a crew membership at SYC starts with a $300 nomination fee plus $569 subs plus a mandatory $150 Food & Bev credit that is forfeited if not used....so that's $1019 for your first season. This doesn't give you club parking access, so add on your discounted seasonal parking cost of $201....total now $1220 and the privilege of walking 500m+ from car to boat/bar...and sailing! Owners have a hard time finding capable crew on a regular basis....the good ones make sure there's beer on the boat after the race so a coupla cool ones can be enjoyed while packing up....and with .05 driving laws, that precludes heading up to the bar, so it's "see ya next week...maybe"

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Yep, last year I was at a premier club it cost almost $4,000 a year for membership, associate for the misses and keeping a boat on the hard.

 

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3 hours ago, Couta said:

That's all good but the reality is that a crew membership at SYC starts with a $300 nomination fee plus $569 subs plus a mandatory $150 Food & Bev credit that is forfeited if not used....so that's $1019 for your first season. This doesn't give you club parking access, so add on your discounted seasonal parking cost of $201....total now $1220 and the privilege of walking 500m+ from car to boat/bar...and sailing! Owners have a hard time finding capable crew on a regular basis....the good ones make sure there's beer on the boat after the race so a coupla cool ones can be enjoyed while packing up....and with .05 driving laws, that precludes heading up to the bar, so it's "see ya next week...maybe"

This would be almost acceptable if it was my only club, but I keep my own OD boat at another club (hard stand) and sail there regularly - full membership fees for said club are ~$900 including boat storage and lockers, voting rights etc. When a mate invites me to sail at SYC and do a series it gets embarrassing. My skipper has a top boat and puts together a competitive crew from sailors at various other clubs who also sail other classes. Consequently the boat does well - even representing SYC as part of the winning assoc cup. After a couple of seasons the club puts the pressure on the skipper and most of the crew go back to their respective club programs leaving skipper short of crew...consequently he doesn't sail as much....one less boat on the course. Personally I'd drop nomination fees - esp if the crew is already a club member elsewhere. Then I'd make it an attractive deal for m'ship at a second club - $300 a season. But it won't happen, cos larger clubs are more focussed on the associate membership (food, bev, entertainment) than yacht racing.

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4 hours ago, LB 15 said:

looking sharp greasy..

paramount-01467-Full-Image_GalleryBackground-en-US-1484348645479._SX940_.jpg

Image result for pictures danny noonan

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41 minutes ago, Couta said:

This would be almost acceptable if it was my only club, but I keep my own OD boat at another club (hard stand) and sail there regularly - full membership fees for said club are ~$900 including boat storage and lockers, voting rights etc. When a mate invites me to sail at SYC and do a series it gets embarrassing. My skipper has a top boat and puts together a competitive crew from sailors at various other clubs who also sail other classes. Consequently the boat does well - even representing SYC as part of the winning assoc cup. After a couple of seasons the club puts the pressure on the skipper and most of the crew go back to their respective club programs leaving skipper short of crew...consequently he doesn't sail as much....one less boat on the course. Personally I'd drop nomination fees - esp if the crew is already a club member elsewhere. Then I'd make it an attractive deal for m'ship at a second club - $300 a season. But it won't happen, cos larger clubs are more focussed on the associate membership (food, bev, entertainment) than yacht racing.

couldn't agree more couta, there are a lot of boats and sailors whos sailing habits don't fit the yacht club model of - 6 races here and you have to be a member etc. - sailors who do a few races here and there, but are not and never will be using the club in a social sense - they might live a fair distance away, and there's the dreaded .05 rule, and with the booze buses around here notorious, drinking at the club is only for the uber-able.

The nomination fee is stupid, and i know of plenty of potential new members who went elsewhere to get their AS number

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5 hours ago, LB 15 said:

looking sharp greasy..

paramount-01467-Full-Image_GalleryBackground-en-US-1484348645479._SX940_.jpg

Thanks, I guess.

Little creepy that you keep a photo of me close to hand but hey NTTATWT in these gender fluid times.

Not sure I've got the numbers To support a run for the glittering prize of high rank. Possibly because I hang out with ratbags like you. And Lydia.

And that Wickham guy. He's really weird.

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Wickham is one seriously dodgy dude. Lydia on the other hand seems to be an upright citizen, indeed a man of letters, or so I am told.

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But like Bruce Wayne and Batman, you never see them in a photo together....

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Simon Wickham was Yachting NZ not AS........  :P

 

Ouch on the Sandy prices. RNZYS is well less than $1k for the whole family and that is Kiwi pesos. I haven't had a boat there for a couple of seasons and am running the dinghy route with the kids but getting my sub notice last week made me wince but not resign.

 

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My little club out in the sticks has created a $100 crew membership category. It gets you a card for the gate, AS membership, and not much else. If you want to vote, be on a committee, store a boat etc you have to move up to full membership. The club loses very few full members to the category, ticks the AS box for its sailors, and makes a few $ off the difference between AS affiliation and the fee. 

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I sail on a variety of yachts  depending whether it is offshore ,one design ,or super 11 from different Clubs out of Melbourne, ORCV is the best and Cheapest especially when i live out Gippsland way 2 hr drive one way. and have no time to go to the  bar.

I have no problems paying for my sailing just dont need $1100 membership to drink at the bar and park the trusty flacon in the car park 

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I read the above with interest...gee problems down under...my oh my.

IMHO, seems sailing does best without big hustles, regardless of location.

Did just fine in past...will always do...without politics and big buck pie holes, seems to me.

But, what do I know being an inland yank...?

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