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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
captainmarko

Columbia 30' for first sailboat?

98 posts in this topic

Trying to fulfill a lifelong dream.

 

Not new to the sea, but relatively new to sailing. Spent almost three years working as a Waterman on the Chesapeake Bay to pay for college. After college, did five years on cruise ships. I'm a musician. Gulf of Mexico, Caribbean, Southern Atlantic. So I've worked in some pretty crappy conditions and sailed through some pretty nasty seas. Which I LOVED!

 

Did some sailing as a lad (I'm 54 now), before I started working on the Bay, on a 50 cat that was built by the long gone father of a girl I was dating (she knew how to sail and I was too ignorant to know any better), and it was one of the best things I ever did. I fell in love with it instantly. And the later experience working on the water only solidified it.

 

Now, I am finally in a position to start making things happen for myself. Been doing all the reading. Have some friends, one of whom has a lifetime of sailing experience, and is a willing teacher, and I'm looking to get my first sailboat.

 

Found a Columbia 30 for a good price. Seems clean and well kept. One reef point on the main. Roller furling headsail. Atomic 4 gas engine. Tiller steering.

 

Plan is to find a trashed diesel that is a drop-in replacement, and tear it down and rebuild it. Two of us have decent mechanical skills, but this would be the first foray into the diesel world. Seems like a good idea to get familiar with that while Auto Zone is still just a mile away by car.

 

Will only be sailing on Lake Mead. It can get pretty windy, but not really any "seas" to speak of. I'm thinking it will make a decent training ground.

 

 

I'm just looking for either "that'll do, pig", or, "run away. Those things sink if you look at 'em".

 

What say you?

 

 

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Marko:

Can you post a pic or a link so we can see the boat?. I can't remember what a Columbia 30 looks like. It's probably an old chopper gun Columbia and they are thick skins and durable boats. Having sails in good condition would be a big help.

 

Got it. Those are decent looking boats that sail quite well. Don't see why it would not make a good entry level boat for you.

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I think it all boils down to what you expect of the boat after you buy it.

As long as you understand that it will need some work, some money, some time, and some luck - all before you sail her - you will be fine.

And understand that you will not be able to add the value of everything you put into her at resale time.

Example: Buy the boat for $10,000, and then spend $8,000 upgrading, repairing, and maintaining. When you get done, the boat is worth $10,500. If that math is acceptable, you are ready to own a sailboat!

Do not think you automatically have to get rid of the Atomic 4 - some of us still use them, and like them. For some sailors, they are great choices. I love mine. :)

 

I also encourage you to sail with others, and bring other sailors aboard your boat as well, to help you learn how to sail her.

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yeah, go sailing. There is now a guy who makes spares for the A4, no reason to change.

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OK - as a guy about the same age - here are some things to think about:

 

Are you going to sleep on the boat? How big is the bunk? is the cushion acceptable?
Where does the hit you in the back? Can your back handle pressure on that spot?
Do the sails go up and down easily? are the luff tapes/slugs in good shape?
Do the winches work?

can you stand up below?

in the head?

can you get around to sit in the head?

with the door closed?

does it matter if the door closes?

basics on the fresh water system and cooktop. Do they work?

That sort of thing. What we could handle at 22 is not the same at 54

 

good luck!

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I'd recommend saving your energies for needed maintenance rather than becoming a diesel mechanic right off the bat. You may encounter unexpected frustrations. I would not encourage seeking unneeded ones.

 

Las Vegas? Great location with several options if you had a trailerable boat. 28' is often the cut-off for realistic trailering.

 

I'm in S Colorado and planning on trailering to the Gulf of Mexico/Sea of Cortez. I like saltwater diving and whales and stuff. Also a bit weary of a "bullying culture".

 

Older sailboats are well known for sturdiness. They started using balsa cores in the mid 70's I think. Balsa rot can be a huge problem.

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Yea to what Tom says. You'll only get a fraction of your investment in improvements back. If that's ok by you, go for it. If the Atomic 4 runs, don't be in a hurry to replace it. They're good motors...just follow safety procedures handling gas. That gives you time to shop for a deal on a diesel. Careful what diesel you buy, as some have very expensive parts, or no parts available at all.

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If you want to learn how to sail, start with a dinghy. You'll find something tired but usable for a few hundred dollars, which you will get you out on the water immediately.

 

You'll learn way more, way faster, in a dinghy than in a leadmine with a caravan on top.

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In the 1970's, I used to crew on a friend's Columbia 30 on Wednesday nights. My memory was that we couldn't keep up when it was light, as it usually was in the summer, but I remember a big breeze day when we were about the only boat staying more-or-less upright. Led half the fleet down the wrong finishing channel! That boat was bulletproof.

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If you want to learn how to sail, start with a dinghy. You'll find something tired but usable for a few hundred dollars, which you will get you out on the water immediately.

 

You'll learn way more, way faster, in a dinghy than in a leadmine with a caravan on top.

 

I often give this same advice - except age 54 is a big factor. Life is short. Lots to learn and so little time to do it - maybe going straight to the "mother ship" is best at some age.

I learned by sailing small boats - and I sail my "big" (for me) boat as if it were a small boat most of the time. But, I was eight when I started, not 54.

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....I remember a big breeze day when we were about the only boat staying more-or-less upright.

 

..You must have been racing Morgan 30's. :D :D :D

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In the 1970's, I used to crew on a friend's Columbia 30 on Wednesday nights. My memory was that we couldn't keep up when it was light, as it usually was in the summer, but I remember a big breeze day when we were about the only boat staying more-or-less upright. Led half the fleet down the wrong finishing channel! That boat was bulletproof.

 

To my mind, that describes exactly the wrong sort of boat to learn on. A learner needs a boat with good feedback in lighter winds, when the loads are still modest and the consequences of error are less destructive

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If you want to learn how to sail, start with a dinghy. You'll find something tired but usable for a few hundred dollars, which you will get you out on the water immediately.

 

You'll learn way more, way faster, in a dinghy than in a leadmine with a caravan on top.

 

I often give this same advice - except age 54 is a big factor. Life is short. Lots to learn and so little time to do it - maybe going straight to the "mother ship" is best at some age.

I learned by sailing small boats - and I sail my "big" (for me) boat as if it were a small boat most of the time. But, I was eight when I started, not 54.

 

 

That age factor can be reasoned the other way too. If time is short, then intensive training seems to me to be even more impt.

 

I too started young, way younger than 8. But as a woman in her mid 50s, I still get great kicks out sailing small fast dinghies in too much wind and having wipeouts.

 

I wouldn't recommend a newbie going straight to my level of insanity. But even a sedate dinghy will give way more feedback than a leadmine

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Do it.

 

Keep the A4 and maybe later pick up another one to do your rebuild on - then you'll have it for a future replacement. I'd re-do all the fuel lines with braided stainless and AN fittings to enhance the safety. Check out Moyer Marine and Indigo for the updates to electronic ignition and so forth - they will make it nearly as reliable as a diesel. Since you'll be on fresh water you can change to a 180 degree thermostat which will help the engine.

 

The boat is fundamentally solid with roomy accommodations and lots of headroom - sleeps 6 in real berths when the settee backs are swung up. I restored a Columbia 43 of similar vintage so I can advise that the two most likely weaknesses are the electrical system - if it's original just rip it all out and start from scratch and the keel bolts - they are steel studs into an iron keel. Pull one pair and check to see if they have become wasp waisted and replace if so. You can do that in the water if need be.

 

It's an old boat so all the usual caveats apply - wet deck core, mast step, stuffing box & strut etc.

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No reason OP can't tow around a Dyer or Sunfish to sail around the anchorage and get his dinghy-time in.

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If you want to race, S2's still dominate some racing circles. Not everybody can, or will, afford a new ultra light.

 

With sailboats, everyfknthing has pros and cons.

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If you want to learn how to sail, start with a dinghy. You'll find something tired but usable for a few hundred dollars, which you will get you out on the water immediately.

 

You'll learn way more, way faster, in a dinghy than in a leadmine with a caravan on top.

 

I often give this same advice - except age 54 is a big factor. Life is short. Lots to learn and so little time to do it - maybe going straight to the "mother ship" is best at some age.

I learned by sailing small boats - and I sail my "big" (for me) boat as if it were a small boat most of the time. But, I was eight when I started, not 54.

 

 

That age factor can be reasoned the other way too. If time is short, then intensive training seems to me to be even more impt.

 

I too started young, way younger than 8. But as a woman in her mid 50s, I still get great kicks out sailing small fast dinghies in too much wind and having wipeouts.

 

I wouldn't recommend a newbie going straight to my level of insanity. But even a sedate dinghy will give way more feedback than a leadmine

 

 

I understand your view - and have shared it. But, I have come to modify it when the age of the new sailor is in the mid-fifties. I fully agree that small boat sailing experience makes for a better sailor - but I think the prescription needs to be modified or at least tailored for age. You and I can enjoy sailing in dinghies because we still have some reflex and understanding of what is about to happen. To learn that ...and enjoy it ..and be up for more of it ..at age 54, is tough. As another data point, I have had people younger than I am say that my boat - an 11,000 lb. cruiser/racer - is too "lively" for them to sail at their age. So, I agree that small boat experience is wonderful - but at some point, it may be best to forgo it. Hence my advice that he sail with others, and have others sail with him aboard his boat. Mileages may vary.

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Marko:

Can you post a pic or a link so we can see the boat?. I can't remember what a Columbia 30 looks like. It's probably an old chopper gun Columbia and they are thick skins and durable boats. Having sails in good condition would be a big help.

 

Got it. Those are decent looking boats that sail quite well. Don't see why it would not make a good entry level boat for you.

https://lasvegas.craigslist.org/boa/6092021281.html

 

Bob,

 

Here's a link to what I've seen. I wanted to get some input before I go look at it.

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I learned to sail in college in small boats and didn't move to big boats until my 30s. I can tell very quickly if a driver started in a big boat or small. If you are racing that's crucial, if you are cruising? eh, not so much. You have a motor for getting in and out so finessing just isn't that important. Sail trim is, don't be one of those going around with fenders out and sails flogging or strapped board tight. It isn't fun for you or the rest of us. Becoming a competent sailor is getting to 90%. Racing is getting closer to 100%. If racing isn't your thing just work on getting to the 90% mark.

 

And 2nd on the Atomic - as far as I know there is no "drop in" diesel replacement. Go have fun and try to learn something every time you go out. 4+ decades for me and still doing exactly that.

 

Extra points for learning to not hit anything or anyone.

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You made a thread before taking a look? With that degree of caution, I'm thinking...tugboat.

 

This is the cruising forum. Cruising is mostly risk, very little security.

 

The boat has a solid vibe though I wonder a bit about the motor. Going through does not always work out.

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If that Atomic 4 starts and can run 30 minutes without overheating, don't even think about replacing it. If you want a boat with a diesel, buy one with a diesel. Every diesel owner who comes into out on our boat comments on how smooth and quiet our A4 is. Every. One.

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This is the cruising forum. Cruising is mostly risk, very little security.

 

This about a boat on a lake, and not a Great Lake.

 

It is not exactly a place for hardcore risk-takers

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I learned to sail in college in small boats and didn't move to big boats until my 30s. I can tell very quickly if a driver started in a big boat or small. If you are racing that's crucial, if you are cruising? eh, not so much. You have a motor for getting in and out so finessing just isn't that important. Sail trim is, don't be one of those going around with fenders out and sails flogging or strapped board tight. It isn't fun for you or the rest of us. Becoming a competent sailor is getting to 90%. Racing is getting closer to 100%. If racing isn't your thing just work on getting to the 90% mark.

 

And 2nd on the Atomic - as far as I know there is no "drop in" diesel replacement. Go have fun and try to learn something every time you go out. 4+ decades for me and still doing exactly that.

 

Extra points for learning to not hit anything or anyone.

 

Hmmm. If you can tell who started on a dinghy I think I can tell who a bunch of racers are when they're on a charter and can't anchor their boat worth shit. Their HH shorts might look great, but I think your %100 is a little generous. (Sailing being a subset of seamanship)

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Will only be sailing on Lake Mead. It can get pretty windy, but not really any "seas" to speak of. I'm thinking it will make a decent training ground.

 

 

I'm just looking for either "that'll do, pig", or, "run away. Those things sink if you look at 'em".

 

What say you?

 

 

Based on where you'd be putzing around, go with the "that'll do" option.

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That boat looks in decent shape but the sails are shot. May not matter for learning but new ones, if needed, will make the initial price look cheap. I think learning on a small boat is best, as others have said.

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That boat looks in decent shape but the sails are shot. May not matter for learning but new ones, if needed, will make the initial price look cheap. I think learning on a small boat is best, as others have said.

How can you tell the sails are shot? Not challenging your statement. Just curious how you tell.

 

And what do you think we sails would run?

 

And define "small".

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I learned to sail in college in small boats and didn't move to big boats until my 30s. I can tell very quickly if a driver started in a big boat or small. If you are racing that's crucial, if you are cruising? eh, not so much. You have a motor for getting in and out so finessing just isn't that important. Sail trim is, don't be one of those going around with fenders out and sails flogging or strapped board tight. It isn't fun for you or the rest of us. Becoming a competent sailor is getting to 90%. Racing is getting closer to 100%. If racing isn't your thing just work on getting to the 90% mark.

 

And 2nd on the Atomic - as far as I know there is no "drop in" diesel replacement. Go have fun and try to learn something every time you go out. 4+ decades for me and still doing exactly that.

 

Extra points for learning to not hit anything or anyone.

Hmmm. If you can tell who started on a dinghy I think I can tell who a bunch of racers are when they're on a charter and can't anchor their boat worth shit. Their HH shorts might look great, but I think your %100 is a little generous. (Sailing being a subset of seamanship)

 

The people I race with don't wear HH shorts, your mileage may vary. My comments were directed at not being obsessed with the fine art of driving but rather learning the basics really well (including basic seamanship) at those who insisted he spend a lot of time in small boats. It's important if racing is important, learning to sail competently not so much.

 

. Perhaps you have some issues that should be addressed.

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D'ranger,

 

No issues. Just don't agree with your %90 cut off for cruisers and generous %100 for racers generalization. There are certain things out there that a cruiser might excell at that a buoy racer might not, and vice versa. I do agree that learning on a dinghy is desirable but might not be practical for people getting into it later in life. I'd add one thing though. In addition to sailing dinghies being good for trim/driving before moving up in size...and that is that it is much more forgivable to mess up on a dinghy (as a youth) than it is on a bigger boat.

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That boat looks in decent shape but the sails are shot. May not matter for learning but new ones, if needed, will make the initial price look cheap. I think learning on a small boat is best, as others have said.

How can you tell the sails are shot? Not challenging your statement. Just curious how you tell.

 

And what do you think we sails would run?

 

And define "small".

 

 

Looking at this picture from CL at sails that lost their shape and are baggy and wrinkly.

 

00H0H_5SemRTCezSq_1200x900.jpg

 

New sails will be several thousand dollars as a guess.

 

You don't have to start on a Sunfish but that's a good choice if you are agile enough to shift weight when it's needed. A good stable small boat might be 14 to 19 feet. Something like a Flying Scot has enough stability for easy learning by an adult.

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That boat looks in decent shape but the sails are shot. May not matter for learning but new ones, if needed, will make the initial price look cheap. I think learning on a small boat is best, as others have said.

How can you tell the sails are shot? Not challenging your statement. Just curious how you tell.

 

And what do you think we sails would run?

 

And define "small".

 

 

Wrinkled, baggy. Don't worry about it for a year or so. But you'd be amazed at the difference crisp new sails make. Ballpark of $1500 each for cruising sails for a 30-footer? Unless you also buy new furling systems and tracks, then add a couple grand each. The pic is also in dead calm, so they might look worse than they really are.

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D'ranger,

 

No issues. Just don't agree with your %90 cut off for cruisers and generous %100 for racers generalization. There are certain things out there that a cruiser might excell at that a buoy racer might not, and vice versa. I do agree that learning on a dinghy is desirable but might not be practical for people getting into it later in life. I'd add one thing though. In addition to sailing dinghies being good for trim/driving before moving up in size...and that is that it is much more forgivable to mess up on a dinghy (as a youth) than it is on a bigger boat.

I guess I didn't do a good job of expressing myself, what I was trying to say is someone who learned in little boats drives by feel, where in big boats is more mechanical, the worst is someone who bought a big boat loaded with electronics. The 90% is meant at how much speed, not an overall proficiency. And I agree with everything you wrote. In retrospect was venting at some friends I tried to help race who just had no feel for driving. Sometimes words just fail me. .

 

edit: FWIW I know a lot more racers who are aholes than cruisers. I am very picky who I race with these days, Even though I don't own a cruiser and have limited time to cruise I enjoy hanging out in this forum for that reason.

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D'ranger,

 

It's all good man!!

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Those sails look a whole lot better than the ~40 year-old set that came wih our boat. And those worked fine for a few years until we could afford to replace them one by one.

 

As for what to learn on, I would suggest a smaller keel boat would be ideal for someone in their 50s - if you don't mind a lack of headroom, not having an enclosed head, etc. With some instruction, an older 30' boat isn't a bad choice at all.

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Trying to fulfill a lifelong dream.

 

Not new to the sea, but relatively new to sailing. Spent almost three years working as a Waterman on the Chesapeake Bay to pay for college. After college, did five years on cruise ships. I'm a musician. Gulf of Mexico, Caribbean, Southern Atlantic. So I've worked in some pretty crappy conditions and sailed through some pretty nasty seas. Which I LOVED!

 

Did some sailing as a lad (I'm 54 now), before I started working on the Bay, on a 50 cat that was built by the long gone father of a girl I was dating (she knew how to sail and I was too ignorant to know any better), and it was one of the best things I ever did. I fell in love with it instantly. And the later experience working on the water only solidified it.

 

Now, I am finally in a position to start making things happen for myself. Been doing all the reading. Have some friends, one of whom has a lifetime of sailing experience, and is a willing teacher, and I'm looking to get my first sailboat.

 

Found a Columbia 30 for a good price. Seems clean and well kept. One reef point on the main. Roller furling headsail. Atomic 4 gas engine. Tiller steering.

 

Plan is to find a trashed diesel that is a drop-in replacement, and tear it down and rebuild it. Two of us have decent mechanical skills, but this would be the first foray into the diesel world. Seems like a good idea to get familiar with that while Auto Zone is still just a mile away by car.

 

Will only be sailing on Lake Mead. It can get pretty windy, but not really any "seas" to speak of. I'm thinking it will make a decent training ground.

 

 

I'm just looking for either "that'll do, pig", or, "run away. Those things sink if you look at 'em".

 

What say you?

 

 

 

First, go look at the boat. Unless the boat has new sails (and the sails are crackley, don't just take the sellers word) then price new sails. Sails are startlingly expensive... so is sailboat-grade rope, so price some of what the boat needs BEFORE making an offer.

 

Personally I would not want a boat with an Atomic 4 but then I am spoiled. As long as you're careful to not make sparks down below, or at least to ventilate thoroughly beforehand, go right ahead.

 

If what you want to do is SAIL then by all means get a racing-class dinghy. You will do more sailing in the same time, with a lot more feedback, and it will be far less hassle & expense. If what you want to do is cruise around on a big sailboat, then don't worry.

 

FB- Doug

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I think it all boils down to what you expect of the boat after you buy it.

As long as you understand that it will need some work, some money, some time, and some luck - all before you sail her - you will be fine.

And understand that you will not be able to add the value of everything you put into her at resale time.

Example: Buy the boat for $10,000, and then spend $8,000 upgrading, repairing, and maintaining. When you get done, the boat is worth $10,500. If that math is acceptable, you are ready to own a sailboat!

Do not think you automatically have to get rid of the Atomic 4 - some of us still use them, and like them. For some sailors, they are great choices. I love mine. :)

 

I also encourage you to sail with others, and bring other sailors aboard your boat as well, to help you learn how to sail her.

Not expecting any return on this investment but knowledge and fun. If I can unload it at the end of this learning process, then it will be a bonus.

 

OK - as a guy about the same age - here are some things to think about:

 

Are you going to sleep on the boat? How big is the bunk? is the cushion acceptable?

Where does the hit you in the back? Can your back handle pressure on that spot?

Do the sails go up and down easily? are the luff tapes/slugs in good shape?

Do the winches work?

can you stand up below?

in the head?

can you get around to sit in the head?

with the door closed?

does it matter if the door closes?

basics on the fresh water system and cooktop. Do they work?

 

That sort of thing. What we could handle at 22 is not the same at 54

 

good luck!

If I do sleep on it, it won't be frequently and it couldn't be any worse than the sleeping cushion I use on my motorcycle camping trips.

 

As for the boat particulars, I'll add those things to my checklist when I see it in person. Thanks for the suggestions.

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If I do sleep on it, it won't be frequently and it couldn't be any worse than the sleeping cushion I use on my motorcycle camping trips.

If you don't want to sleep on board, or are happy to camp onboard for the occasional overnight, then why not save yourself a huge pile of grief and expense by not buying all that accommodation? Maximise your sailing fun by buying a boat which is all about the sailing, rather than lugging around a house which you don't need. Think of all the reasons you don't tow a 5-berth caravan behind your motorbike, or drive an RV rather than the bike; they all apply here.

 

If you don't want a dinghy, lots of sportier small keelboats are heaps of fun to sail, without being threatening; very responsive without any risk of capsize, and the rig loads are low. For example, you can buy a tired old J/22 or J/24 for buttons, and there are plenty of less popular non-caravan boats of that size from the 70s and 80s which don't command big money even when they are in great condition. Old IOR quarter-tonners, for example.

 

If you go down in size to to the low 20s, you can still have a sheltered space below decks where you can sleep, cook a camping-style meal, etc. The sailing will be physically easier, much more engaging and rewarding, and the sailing gear will cost a fraction of what you'll pay on a 30-footer (the costs roughly scale by the weight of the boat rather than its length, and a J/24 is 1/3 of the weight of a Columbia 30, while a J/22 is 1/5th of the weight). So you can afford decent sails, new rigging and reliable hardware rather than wrestling with tired old gear to handle much heavier loads

 

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Sheesh! Some of you are tough on Marko.

 

Based on nothing more than the Craigslist ad and photos, it looks "not too bad" in my opinion. Maybe priced a bit high, but it may well be a solid choice. Price can be negotiated, we can't tell until someone actually sees the beast in the flesh.

 

I learned to sail in a dinghy. I own two racing dinghys (right now). Sailing in a dinghy teaches you to sail.

 

Starting off in that Columbia will let Marko enjoy the water. He will be able to move around the lake propelled by the wind. He can enjoy it, enjoy his boat, and even enjoy working on it. If he chooses to, he can probably find some local dinghy racing to supplement his sailing quota and hone skills.

 

It's all good.

 

But more time on the water, and more people in sailboats, is always a good thing, even if the sails aren't trimmed perfectly with the crew sitting on the leeward rail to open the slot upwind in light conditions.

 

All over the rest of this site and others we see much angst about a perceived "decline" in sailing participation. I think we should be encouraging more people to get out there and float around propelled by the wind rather than dead dinosours.

 

<Rant over, soapbox put away>

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I agree with Red Ryder. For a moment, I thought I was on Sailnet.

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Sheesh! Some of you are tough on Marko.

 

[snip]

 

All over the rest of this site and others we see much angst about a perceived "decline" in sailing participation. I think we should be encouraging more people to get out there and float around propelled by the wind rather than dead dinosours.

 

I for one am not saying that Marko's idea is a bad one, and I m not trying to give him a hard time. Sorry if any of what I have posted has come across that way.

 

However, I am giving Marko an honest assessment of how the chosen boat appears to stack up against Marko's stated objectives. I too want to see more people on the water, and that's why I think it's more helpful to identify a gap between path and objective than to cheer someone down a path which looks likely to be unfulfilling.

 

Whatever path Marko chooses, I wish him good luck and much fun on the water.

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+1 on what Red & Ajax said. Just go for it and have a good time. You may find that a lesson or two, with an instructor on your oat is a good investment but that;s up to you. Most importantly, go out there be sate and have a good time

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Two Legs is correct about the educational value of sailing on small boats though. I advocate renting/borrowing/making friends and getting on something small and sporty while owning the Columbia.

Even a Hobie Cat can teach you about responsiveness.

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Hey guys, I really appreciate all the feedback here. I don't take any comments personally. This is a serious sailing forum and I expect some pretty strong opinions.

 

FWIW, I am not a complete newb to sailing. It's just that all my experience has been practical, if that makes any sense. I never had any lessons. No one every taught me what everything was, you know? A halyard. A clew. A luff. A reef point. A genoa. Like I said, I was too stupid to know what I didn't know. My time working as a commercial fisherman changed all of that. It taught me just how lucky I was that we didn't hurt anyone or do any damage. And being out there working in really shitty conditions taught me to respect it.

 

Sailing around the edges of hurricane force weather on a small cruise ship taught me even more, but I also fell in love with it even more. While a lot of the passengers were throwing up in the hallways or lying in their cabins, I was out on deck getting soaked. Up as far as I could safely get near the bow just watching it all. And this was an older ship, so it was more of a traditional layout.

 

I spent many a storm about where those lines from the crane meet the deck. You can see that by today's standards, this is a tiny ship. No stabilizer wings. Old school. When we had rough seas, everybody knew it.

 

s_cross.jpg

 

 

When I first went sailing on the girlfriend's cat, I just did what she told me and figured it out along the way. But that thing was built like a tank and rigged like a chinese junk. In retrospect, it was a very odd boat. But I didn't know any better, it was free, and we could sail it whenever we wanted to, and when the weather was nice, we did. Only ran it aground once, and looking back, the place where we did it is a very tricky little section to navigate anyway.

 

After college, a friend of mine bought a 47 foot ketch (he had some pretty serious money) and I spent the summer helping him refurbish it. Cleaned up the teak decks. Did some rigging repairs. Nothing really heavy. And then went on a shakedown cruise off the coast of Massachusetts. He went on to sail that boat around the world with his father. And again, that cruise was another revelation. I knew that someday, that would be ME.

 

I've never sailed in any serious weather. All my time at sea has been on powered vessels, but between my time as a Waterman and my time on ships, that's about seven years altogether that I've spent mostly on the water. And in those seven years, I've seen some seas. Probably nothing compared to a lot of you, but enough to know how serious it can get.

 

Ultimately, I want this to culminate in a Valiant 47/Amel Super Maramu/Mason 44/Passport 470 (a boy's gotta dream, right?) that I can, at the very least, cross the Pacific, cross the Atlantic, and who knows after that. And part of the process as well, is to get my wife in to the whole thing. We chartered (with a skipper and mate) a Jeanneau 40-something in Key West while vacationing in January...

IMG_0461_zpsrqfz1ikn.jpg

and she spent most of the time fighting off seasickness.

 

That's me at the helm. We spent most of the time tacking back and forth along the edge of the Quantum Sails racing regatta. Just happened to be at the same time. Talk about dumb luck. The captain and I talked as we were leaving port and as soon as we were in clear water, he asked me if I wanted the helm.

 

Silly question.

 

I guess I fooled him because I drove most of the day.

 

The point of all of this is that during this process, I want to be able to get my wife to learn as well, and the prospect of being able to sail away, drop anchor, cook a little meal, have a little wine, watch the sunset...that will be alluring to her. She's going to take awhile to enjoy being heeled over in a 25 knot breeze getting soaked.

 

And I don't think that's going to happen in a dingy.

 

Hobie cat? I dunno. Can I secure a cooler on a Hobie cat?

 

In any event, I'm grateful for ALL of the input. This place is full of experience, and I hope to benefit from it.

 

 

Now if I can only get Brent Swain to chime in...

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Sounds like you get it so maybe that Columbia 30 will work out for you and your wife. Have someone assess the boat and especially the sails. Get some help the first few times. You won't go too far wrong.

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.......the point of all of this is that during this process, I want to be able to get my wife to learn as well, and the prospect of being able to sail away, drop anchor, cook a little meal, have a little wine, watch the sunset...that will be alluring to her. She's going to take awhile to enjoy being heeled over in a 25 knot breeze getting soaked.

 

Your overall plan sounds solid. Only issue might be getting the wife comfortable with sailing motion. Some folks just never get comfortable with heeling and repeated exposure doesn't help. Go easy on her if she doesn't adapt quickly.

 

Now if I can only get Brent Swain to chime in...

Don't go there, fucker.

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Your overall plan sounds solid. Only issue might be getting the wife comfortable with sailing motion. Some folks just never get comfortable with heeling and repeated exposure doesn't help. Go easy on her if she doesn't adapt quickly.

 

 

She's pretty tough, overall. Career dancer, so she's got great balance and is used to flinging herself around. I think she'll be a natural once she gets used to it.

 

 

Don't go there, fucker.

 

Too late. Like a vampire, the invitation is already out there.

 

C'mon...you've got to like the entertainment value of the guy.

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Oh...and what say you all to the price?

 

Seems reasonable given what I can find that's comparable, provided it's in good shape.

 

And for those that didn't look, price is 5k.

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Marko, I'm v glad not to have pissed you off!

 

The point of all of this is that during this process, I want to be able to get my wife to learn as well, and the prospect of being able to sail away, drop anchor, cook a little meal, have a little wine, watch the sunset...that will be alluring to her. She's going to take awhile to enjoy being heeled over in a 25 knot breeze getting soaked.

And I don't think that's going to happen in a dingy.


That changes the picture muchly. The original post painted a picture of a single man used to roughing it, who was contemplating a floating caravan. This computes way better!

 

It seems to me that there are two ways of looking at what might work best for your wife, and they pull in different directions.

 

The first strand is to help her gain confidence about being afloat, effectively as a passenger. That points to a boat which is big, solid, stable and reassuring, and sedate.

 

The second path is something which can involve her in the actual sailing. That points to something lively and engaging.

 

The extreme version of either path is likely to fail. At one extreme you get a boat which offers little sensation of being afloat, so doesn't achieve any progress because it is so unboatlike ... and at the other extreme you lure her onto a boat which leaps round in a ball of spray and terrifies her back to dry land for ever.

 

But somewhere in between, there will be a boat which is stable enough to be reassuring, but nimble enough to let her feel what's happening and connect with the sailing, and small enough that she can handle the loads.

 

My own instinct remains that a bulky 30-footer will have too little feedback and too much load to get beyond the passenger stage. But I am not you and not your wife ... so best wishes to both of you.

 

Now if I can only get Brent Swain to chime in...

 

:D :D

 

You'll need to troll him. Then he'll be along in a sec

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If you want blue water competency, as well as more stability in real wind, the keel is important. There must be over a dozen names for various keels, I just call the deep keels.....deep keels. 4' draft or more, preferably with significant ballast. This will slow you down of course. It also seem to increase the value of sailboats.

 

I'm a newb with a stack of books over a foot tall though. My S2 is my fourth boat and third sailing vessel....still green as grass compared to many.

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Oh...and what say you all to the price?

 

Seems reasonable given what I can find that's comparable, provided it's in good shape.

 

And for those that didn't look, price is 5k.

 

When it gets that low, price isn't really a factor anymore. Downstream costs like moorage, sails, rigging, fuel etc. etc. will quickly dwarf a $1 or $2 thousand initial price difference.

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Marko, that's an extremely binary sort of weather pattern! Not at all what I am used to. And if the only wind is at lest the upper end of force 4, then any sailing is going to be brisk, so you are looking at v dift options to what I suggested above.

My best guess for something which is going to be comfortable for that weather is two main factors: stability, and ease of reducing sail and handling it.

 

In theory, those criteria point in different directions. In general, a bigger boat will be more stable, and a smaller one will have more easily-handled sails.

 

However, stability is also driven in large part by design. Racing boats of the late 70s and 80s had low stability (to get a low handicap), and relied on bodies on the rail for stability. Cruising boats of that era were sometimes better.

 

I don't know anything about the stability of the boats you are looking at, but this Columbia 30 page says it has a 50% ballast ratio, which is very good. If that's true, you'd do hard to find better. The sail-handling isn't that hard to improve (and might not involve much money), so you could be looking at a good choice.

 

Have fun!

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For a first boat you could do way worse. Easily.

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Oh...and what say you all to the price?

 

Seems reasonable given what I can find that's comparable, provided it's in good shape.

 

And for those that didn't look, price is 5k.

When it gets that low, price isn't really a factor anymore. Downstream costs like moorage, sails, rigging, fuel etc. etc. will quickly dwarf a $1 or $2 thousand initial price difference.

Correctomundo. The old saying...Nothing costs more than a free horse. OP is going to want someone knowledgeable, if not a surveyor, to give the boat a looking over. It's probably a decent boat, but if it needs immediate motor work, rigging, sails, etc, the expenses will climb rapidly.

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Trying to fulfill a lifelong dream.

 

Not new to the sea, but relatively new to sailing. Spent almost three years working as a Waterman on the Chesapeake Bay to pay for college. After college, did five years on cruise ships. I'm a musician. Gulf of Mexico, Caribbean, Southern Atlantic. So I've worked in some pretty crappy conditions and sailed through some pretty nasty seas. Which I LOVED!

 

Did some sailing as a lad (I'm 54 now), before I started working on the Bay, on a 50 cat that was built by the long gone father of a girl I was dating (she knew how to sail and I was too ignorant to know any better), and it was one of the best things I ever did. I fell in love with it instantly. And the later experience working on the water only solidified it.

 

Now, I am finally in a position to start making things happen for myself. Been doing all the reading. Have some friends, one of whom has a lifetime of sailing experience, and is a willing teacher, and I'm looking to get my first sailboat.

 

Found a Columbia 30 for a good price. Seems clean and well kept. One reef point on the main. Roller furling headsail. Atomic 4 gas engine. Tiller steering.

 

Plan is to find a trashed diesel that is a drop-in replacement, and tear it down and rebuild it. Two of us have decent mechanical skills, but this would be the first foray into the diesel world. Seems like a good idea to get familiar with that while Auto Zone is still just a mile away by car.

 

Will only be sailing on Lake Mead. It can get pretty windy, but not really any "seas" to speak of. I'm thinking it will make a decent training ground.

 

 

I'm just looking for either "that'll do, pig", or, "run away. Those things sink if you look at 'em".

 

What say you?

 

 

How far do you think you'll motor on any given day? Electric might work. How many batteries could you put where the motor currently is?

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Thanks a lot, everybody.

 

I'm trying to get an appointment to see it in the next couple days.

 

I will report back with pics.

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A purchase survey is a useful investment.

Around here they go less than $20/ft. A surveyor is trained to look for all of the issues noted above. 

Think of sails as consumables, good ones treated well last longer than cheap that are thrashed.  We are winning races with 16 yr old Vektron from Hood... 

Family had two Columbia 30s and a 32 around 1975-1980, finally traded to a Columbia 9.6 that kept until dad's retirement  

Think we had core problems, but I was a teen and not privy to details. 

Do recall one night were fueling and the hose came off deck pipe, put ~20 gals of gas into bilge.  

The 9.6 was a diesel for that reason  

 

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Well, all for naught. 

Was supposed to look at it today. Got an email yesterday that he had a committed buyer and unless the deal fell through, it was sold.

Oh well. All the advice still stands. I'll report back when there's another candidate in the wings.

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Captain, if you end up buying that Columbia 30, promise me you will do something about the lavender/violet berth cushions. The look like they came from a My Little Pony or Strawberry Shortcake boat. The curtains need to go too. Best of luck and let us know what you find.

B.C.

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9 hours ago, Bull City said:

Captain, if you end up buying that Columbia 30, promise me you will do something about the lavender/violet berth cushions. The look like they came from a My Little Pony or Strawberry Shortcake boat. The curtains need to go too. Best of luck and let us know what you find.

B.C.

The Columbia is gone. 

So...H.R. Puff-n-Stuff decor notwithstanding, it won't be my problem. 

Trying to chase down a Westsail 32 at the moment.

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24 minutes ago, captainmarko said:

The Columbia is gone. 

So...H.R. Puff-n-Stuff decor notwithstanding, it won't be my problem. 

Trying to chase down a Westsail 32 at the moment.

For Lake Mead?

You should buy a cabin, it will be faster.

 

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

For Lake Mead?

You should buy a cabin, it will be faster.

 

With or without a porch?

I'm thinking the porch might really slow us down.

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7 minutes ago, captainmarko said:

With or without a porch?

I'm thinking the porch might really slow us down.

You have to tow it so it runs on the chine.

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A steel cabin in Nevada is called an oven.

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The Westsail is a fine boat for crossing oceans.  But it is hard to think of any boat less suited to use on a lake

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I think we use what we like. Buy something that you like.

This is why criminals do ten times more damage than reported. It is hard to like something that has been robbed and/or vandalized.

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Moving on from the Westsail. I'll try to reduce the "stream of consciousness" direction I tend to take. 

 

J30?

 

Seems like this might be the way to go.

 

This was us yesterday. Took me a until about :45 to realize I didn't have the horizon level. More worried about dropping my phone. 20-25 knot winds, with heavier gusts. Had the rail buried prior to the start of the video, but, of course, once I managed to start recording, the wind had eased just enough to bring it up. 

Had about 5 hours of this nonstop until we had to come in. Somebody had a gig to play.

Learning is fun!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHyHwJIOORA&feature=youtu.be

 

 

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What kind of boat were you on for the video? J30? Hard to go wrong with a JBoat. I sail on a lake and had a J22 for several years. Sweet sailing boats.

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

What kind of boat were you on for the video? 

An old Hunter 30'. My friend who's teaching me to sail has basically a "timeshare" setup on this boat. Which is why I want to get my own. 

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Captain,

I went through the "I want a new boat" process a couple of years ago. Unlike you, I have been sailing for a long time, have had a number of smaller boats (Sunfish to J22 in size) and it's important to really think about what you're after, and what you don't want. In my case, I knew I wanted very good performance, stability (for a lake, not the Southern Sea), comfortable weekending/overnighting, a tiller, and simplicity. I ended up with a boat I love. Of course I blew the budget part, but that's a given.

Let me suggest that you share with us the following:

  • a list of things you want and don't want in a boat 
  • your real budget number
  • Your dream boat
  • some boats that you like, some you don't like, and why
  • some boats that are available in your area, and share with us 

We can quiz you, help you think things through, shake your beliefs, provide smart-ass observations, dash your dreams. It's a service we provide.

B.C.

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6 hours ago, captainmarko said:

Moving on from the Westsail. I'll try to reduce the "stream of consciousness" direction I tend to take.

J30?


Westsail to J/30 is almost as big a leap as changing your religion.  Both are fine boats, but they live at opposite ends of the spectrum.

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16 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Captain,

I went through the "I want a new boat" process a couple of years ago. Unlike you, I have been sailing for a long time, have had a number of smaller boats (Sunfish to J22 in size) and it's important to really think about what you're after, and what you don't want. In my case, I knew I wanted very good performance, stability (for a lake, not the Southern Sea), comfortable weekending/overnighting, a tiller, and simplicity. I ended up with a boat I love. Of course I blew the budget part, but that's a given.

Let me suggest that you share with us the following:

  • a list of things you want and don't want in a boat 
  • your real budget number
  • Your dream boat
  • some boats that you like, some you don't like, and why
  • some boats that are available in your area, and share with us 

We can quiz you, help you think things through, shake your beliefs, provide smart-ass observations, dash your dreams. It's a service we provide.

B.C.

Or the ever-popular "random shit and abuse"

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8 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Or the ever-popular "random shit and abuse"

It's a truly comprehensive service. 

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17 hours ago, Bull City said:

Let me suggest that you share with us the following:

  • a list of things you want and don't want in a boat 
  • your real budget number
  • Your dream boat
  • some boats that you like, some you don't like, and why
  • some boats that are available in your area, and share with us 

The list of things I want in a boat for now is pretty simple. 30' or thereabouts. Enough of a sail selection to be able to handle some wind. More than one reef point in the main would be nice. I really want to be able to be out there in a Small Craft Advisory, because what I know as a SCA and what they call a SCA on Lake Mead are two very different things. There really aren't any seas to speak of, but it can get pretty windy. Cockpit big enough to handle four people. Decks wide enough to move about easily. Ability to stay overnight maybe weekend on the boat. I'm trying to keep the budget below 10k. 

Honestly, I didn't even know what a J boat WAS until a couple days ago. I was just looking for something that size in that price range, and one of them came up. So I started researching those particular boats and was like, "holy shit!". It's exactly what I want! And let's be clear, at the time, I was just looking for anything in the 5k range, because that's what I was already prepared to spend on the Columbia, and once I found out about the J boats, I upped my budget a bit because it seemed like I could get everything I wanted for about 10k, maybe less.

Dream boat...

Hmmm....well, the dream boat is an oceangoing vessel, not a lake sailboat. What I'm buying now is a learning tool that I will unload in a couple years once my chops are up to speed. So, just to be clear, we're talking about to very different boats and times.

Valiant 47/50 and the Amel Super Maramu are probably at the top of the list. Passport 470 runs a close second. I've got a weakness for Bob Perry's boats.

My time spent as a commercial fisherman and on ships makes me want the Super Maramu. Three watertight compartments. Watertight engine compartment. Company claims you can pick up the boat by the chainplates. Hard dodger and well protected cockpit, even though it IS a center cockpit. Unparalleled engine room access. Everything on the boat is designed so that a small, lightweight 50 year old woman can do it. Even though it's never going to win any beauty contests, I find beauty in it's practicality. But clearly I'm a way off from being able to handle something like this. 

What's available in my area? Not much. With Lake Mead as the only body of water, pickings are slim. And what you can find is usually pretty well used. I've found a few J30's, but they're either on the East coast or in the Midwest. 

I assume the "random shit and abuse" simply comes with the forum registration. 

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6 hours ago, captainmarko said:

The list of things I want in a boat for now is pretty simple. 30' or thereabouts. Enough of a sail selection to be able to handle some wind. More than one reef point in the main would be nice. I really want to be able to be out there in a Small Craft Advisory, because what I know as a SCA and what they call a SCA on Lake Mead are two very different things.

Pretty much any production 30ft sailing yacht will meet those criteria, unless you buy something very racy (when it might take a skilled crew to be safe in higher winds).

A second reef point is a trivial modification to a sail, and requires trivial extra hardware.

6 hours ago, captainmarko said:

Cockpit big enough to handle four people. Decks wide enough to move about easily. Ability to stay overnight maybe weekend on the boat. I'm trying to keep the budget below 10k.

Again, nearly any production 30' boat will be fine for weekending, unless it's an out-and-out racer.

It'd be hard to find a cockpit which won't seat 4 at rest, but on some the tiller will take up a lot of that room.  That's one area of differentiation. But on a lake in a hot area it will be fun to sit up on the rail.

In general boats designed for with racing as part of the brief will have wider side decks, but most of the rest will be fine unless you are racing.

So your criteria so far let you choose on price and condition.   If you are only to keep the boat for a few years, buy the one which won't eat time and money before you sell.

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On the dream boat question, I meant the dream boat for Lake Meade.

Is draft a consideration?

How about fractional vs. masthead rig? If you anticipate a fair amount of single-handed sailing, a fractional rig is good.

Preference for outboard or inboard power?

Do you need a Bimini?

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20 minutes ago, Bull City said:

On the dream boat question, I meant the dream boat for Lake Meade.

Ah. Well, color me verbose.

20 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Is draft a consideration?

Not really. Pretty deep all around.

20 minutes ago, Bull City said:

How about fractional vs. masthead rig? If you anticipate a fair amount of single-handed sailing, a fractional rig is good.

Don't even know what that means. I will have to look those terms up.

20 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Preference for outboard or inboard power?

I would prefer inboard diesel. Diesel maintenance is part of the whole learning process. 

20 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Do you need a Bimini?

That would be a great bonus. Anything that can block the sun out here in the summer is always welcome.

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

It'd be hard to find a cockpit which won't seat 4 at rest, but on some the tiller will take up a lot of that room.  That's one area of differentiation. But on a lake in a hot area it will be fun to sit up on the rail.

In general boats designed for with racing as part of the brief will have wider side decks, but most of the rest will be fine unless you are racing.

Maybe it's just the Hunter that we're on, but going forward is a PITA. The chainplates are right in the middle of the deck and going around them is awkward enough to necessitate climbing on the cabin every time. And the cockpit is such that with three people in there tacking, somebody is always in danger of getting an unscheduled colonoscopy from the tiller.

It seems (I don't really know since I haven't been ON one) that the J30's have a longer cockpit area. I could be wrong. And it seems as well, on those boats, that you have room enough to run forward without getting tangled in the shrouds. It's something that I pay attention to when I'm looking at boats. Clear deck area. Who knows, maybe I'm being ignorant, but after those years working on the water, being able to get around without any interference while the boat is moving always seems important. 

On a side note, I hope I don't sound like a complete idiot. I've got my Annapolis Book of Seamanship right here next to me so I don't fuck up the terminology. But it all still feels new and clumsy when I use it. 

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J/30 was designed as a racer-cruiser, so ease of moving around was a priority.

Hunters are designed as cruising boats, and they sell by having lots of interior.  So a big cabintop is a priority.

All boats are compromises.  Trade off one virtue against another.

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Masthead rig: the forestay or headstay (wire on which jib is hanked) goes to the top of the mast.

Fractional rig: the forestay, in this case, doesn't go to the top of the mast. 3/4 or 7/8 the way up is pretty common.

rigs.jpg.223873988f31ce87073ab55c9c3b3593.jpg

With a masthead rig, the foretriangle (bounded by deck, mast and headstay) is usually a larger portion of the sail plan, than on a fractional rig. With a masthead rig, you have a larger jib to deal with, which means bigger loads and more sail to move when you tack. On a fractional rig, it's the reverse. The main is a bigger part of the sail plan, and often the mast is stepped farther forward. I personally prefer a fractional rig.

What TwoLegged says about J/Boats and Hunters is true. I would add that some, but not all, Hunters are designed to stay in the slip.

I would also opt for a boat that sails well. Even if you don't race, there is nothing worse than a boat that sails like a slug.

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Bull City,

 

Cool! Thanks for that. And pictures as well!

I am more concerned with how it sails. I want to be able to really push it. It actually seems like the lake is going to be a good learning environment since you can be dealing with a lot of wind but not really any seas to speak of. Accommodations are not really an issue. Overnight with 4 people is the most I'll be doing. I'm not looking for an apartment. Still looking for a J boat, but they all appear to be in Maryland! And I'm not wild about the idea of spending as much to ship it out here as I spend on the boat itself. 

 

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3 minutes ago, captainmarko said:

Accommodations are not really an issue. Overnight with 4 people is the most I'll be doing. I'm not looking for an apartment. 

..Overnight with four people on most 30' boats IS pushing it. Don't confuse the number of berths provided with how many she will comfortably sleep. :D

I have an older and smaller (...low freeboard, narrow beam, shallow draft) 30' boat that has six alleged berths. However, it will sleep two comfortably. Sorta. ;)

night shot

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Yeah. I get it.

I motorcycle camp a fair bit. Very minimalist. And I've done trips with two people, camping gear, and our stuff on a motorcycle. VERY much roughing it. When I worked on the boats, I would sleep on the engine box instead of the cabin. Just because with any air moving at all it was cooler outside than in the cabin. 

I realize four people is pushing it. But that's only until SWMBO gets the hang of it and I get good enough that I don't need a more experienced sailor with me. Then it's only two people. 

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I looked at yachtworld.com and sailboatlistings.com. You're right; Nevada is a sailboat desert. What about the LA & San Diego areas? 

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3 minutes ago, Bull City said:

I looked at yachtworld.com and sailboatlistings.com. You're right; Nevada is a sailboat desert. What about the LA & San Diego areas? 

I've been looking as far as the PNW. Obviously LA and SD are the closest and best options. It seems, though, that having a berth in CA automatically doubles the price of the boat. Ad there's not a lot of what I'm looking for. 

 

Now, if I wanted an 80' Oyster? No problem.

 

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A nice racer/cruiser in Long Beach:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1970/Ericson-32-3081805/Long-Beach/CA/United-States#.WRDnw7wrKHo

and some 1980s Catalina 30s, which would probably meet your manifesto, for $15 - 16K.

plus another $3 or 4K to move it to Lake Mead??

Your budget is probably a little low.

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11 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Your budget is probably a little low.

Yeah, I realize that. 

But I'm patient. And it seems that there are quite often deals to be had on the Lake. Lots of people simply abandon the boats, or stop paying their slip fees. I've heard more than once of folks picking up something for $100. But you have to be "in the circle" to hear of these. 

 

So, I've got to join the "Yacht Club". Hang around, which I'm already doing. My friend that's teaching me just started teaching sailing lessons there, so that's a good inroad. I'm in no hurry. If I'd have been quicker, that Columbia that started this thread would already be mine!

Okay. Enough of this. I've got to go to work...

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3 hours ago, captainmarko said:

Yeah, I realize that. 

But I'm patient. And it seems that there are quite often deals to be had on the Lake. Lots of people simply abandon the boats, or stop paying their slip fees. I've heard more than once of folks picking up something for $100. But you have to be "in the circle" to hear of these. 

 

So, I've got to join the "Yacht Club". Hang around, which I'm already doing. My friend that's teaching me just started teaching sailing lessons there, so that's a good inroad. I'm in no hurry. If I'd have been quicker, that Columbia that started this thread would already be mine!

Okay. Enough of this. I've got to go to work...

Be patient. The day you hurry to buy a boat is the day you get caught up in a mess similar to marrying the wrong woman because you did not look her over carefully enough.

FB- Doug

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5 hours ago, Tom Scott said:

..Overnight with four people on most 30' boats IS pushing it. Don't confuse the number of berths provided with how many she will comfortably sleep. :D

I have an older and smaller (...low freeboard, narrow beam, shallow draft) 30' boat that has six alleged berths. However, it will sleep two comfortably. Sorta. ;)

night shot

I have an older 40' boat with 6 sea berths. Sleeps 4 comfortably, without pulling out settees at anchor, 2 at large heel angles  midships.  

Generously sized for two, can be single handed, race with 4-6, daysailed 12 on Saturday with people sitting on cabin. 

As Tom notes, possible berths and seating might be usable under ideal but not worst conditions 

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6 hours ago, Bull City said:

A nice racer/cruiser in Long Beach:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1970/Ericson-32-3081805/Long-Beach/CA/United-States#.WRDnw7wrKHo

and some 1980s Catalina 30s, which would probably meet your manifesto, for $15 - 16K.

plus another $3 or 4K to move it to Lake Mead??

Your budget is probably a little low.

Bull,

An Ericson 32 (which is a nice boat by the way) is really a cruiser/racer...vs a J/30 which is a racer/cruiser.  Though Ericson is 2 feet longer, it rates 12 secs a mile slower....Cat 30 is even slower at somewhere around 180+ depending on configuration...

That said, the Cat 30 has a trailer, which makes getting to Lake Mead alot easier/cheaper....

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Be patient. The day you hurry to buy a boat is the day you get caught up in a mess similar to marrying the wrong woman because you did not look her over carefully enough.

FB- Doug

Already done that once. 

Hence the patience.

 

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If it's going to cost that much to move a boat to the lake, then the choice amounts to whatever is for sale on the lake.

That will require plenty of flexibility about the type of boat, and probably even the size.  Just go by price and condition

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7 hours ago, Crash said:

Bull,

An Ericson 32 (which is a nice boat by the way) is really a cruiser/racer...vs a J/30 which is a racer/cruiser.  Though Ericson is 2 feet longer, it rates 12 secs a mile slower....Cat 30 is even slower at somewhere around 180+ depending on configuration...

That said, the Cat 30 has a trailer, which makes getting to Lake Mead alot easier/cheaper....

Hmmm... never thought about cruiser/racer as different from racer/cruiser. Learn something every day.

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Just a matter of how many slices you make in the pie :lol:

So for example:

a Westsail 32 is a cruiser

an Ericson 32 is a cruiser/racer

a J/30 is a racer/cruiser

and a Farr 30 is a racer

 

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40 minutes ago, Crash said:

Just a matter of how many slices you make in the pie :lol:

So for example:

a Westsail 32 is a cruiser

an Ericson 32 is a cruiser/racer

a J/30 is a racer/cruiser

and a Farr 30 is a racer

And a Hunter 31 is a floating caravan

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Made me think of this:

Image result for sailboat evolution

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2 hours ago, py26129 said:

Made me think of this:

I do hope that the schooner is not the pinnacle of evolution

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