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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
    • B.J. Porter

      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

      After fifteen years of volunteer moderation at SA, I will no longer be part of the moderation team. The decision to step aside is mine, and has been some time in the works but we did not wish to announce it in advance for a number of reasons. It's been fun, but I need my time back for other purposes now. The Underdawg admin account will not be monitored until further notice, as I will be relinquishing control of it along with my administrative privileges. Zapata will continue on as a moderator, and any concerns or issues can be directed to that account or to the Editor until further notice. Anyone interested in helping moderate the forums should reach out to Scot by sending a PM to the Editor account. Please note that I am not leaving the community, I am merely stepping aside from Admin responsibilities and privileges on the site.
Chapped

The Drinking of the Hemlock

44 posts in this topic

The creature we know as boating and sailing, specifically, is approaching life support status across the USA. Marina slip rentals are shrinking while slip sizes grow. Mast-up storage is a ghost of its once lively populations and let's face it, folks just aren't getting out there as much as they used to. Here is another signpost on the road that we can choose to argue around, or just flat out ignore while we spin our way into the history books as a viable outdoor recreational pursuit.

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Boating-popularity-continues-rapid-decline-8044603.php

 

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Still tough to find a berth here and prices are very high - approaching $20/Ft in the best marinas

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Remove all the land storage, jack the prices up, millenials can't get work.   What is the result supposed to be?

 

--Kevin

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tl;dr--

 

Makes me wonder how much CT has jacked up boater registration $$.  It's only one piece of the puzzle, but might be telling. . .

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6 minutes ago, bplipschitz said:

tl;dr--

 

Makes me wonder how much CT has jacked up boater registration $$.  It's only one piece of the puzzle, but might be telling. . .

Same thing happening in Chicago area.  Harbors which used to be full now have plenty of space.  On top of that, the various municipalities haven't put a penny into upgrading the marinas so the quality of the facilities have gone downhill.  

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where are the fleets of t-birds, bear boats, cap-horns, muscadets, and catamarans of all kinds that used to get people out on the water?  why does being a "real" sailor have to be synonymous with a monthly payment on a 75k-200k plastic tub with a sprinkle of carbon fiber bits that you only have time to use maybe twice a month during the summer?  why haven't tens of thousands of late 60's-mid 80's bathtubs been recycled?  

I think the interest in row/sail  - the so-called RAID style boats - is probably the best thing happening in sailing today.  the reason it's popular is because it's accessible. 

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its all an issue of money  and the lack thereof  in the millennial  cohort ........ things will improve as the boomers start to croak with abandon....... 

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I have the data somewhere,  so forgive me if I'm off by a little,  but the gist of a 'discussion' I was part of entailed:

Peak boat registrations in the US was 1981

Average age of the US:  39       -   Average age at the Yacht Club:    58

In other words,  the boating public is a shrinking part of a shrinking demographic.

You can blame computers, democrats, or women's basketball if you want to,  but the fact is boating has (on average)  become more expensive at a time when many younger families have less disposable income.

There are more people who self-identify as bird-watchers in the US than sailors.

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It's all about how much free time people have these days. The middle class of the United States has less than half the free time they did a decade ago. Free time from work,and free time from the family. Thats the reason that boating (and racing twice as much) is shrinking.

 

 

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As a young man entering into boating, I have experienced these barriers firsthand:

  • Slip/mooring Availability: the most desirable areas often have waitlists of 5-10 years, or more. The big coastal cities which attract a lot of young people are especially bad in this regard. Moorings in my home town are on a 30-year waiting list, for example (not that any of the boats are used but that's a different issue). Young people often aren't able or willing to plan that many years ahead for something like boat ownership. Say what you will about the "instant gratification" generation but young adults often move around the country, travel, change jobs, etc. and it's difficult to plan long-term when you're young.
  • Yacht Club Inaccessibility: most yacht clubs are not helping sailing grow. The clubs in the desirable coastal cities are often "old boys" clubs, expensive and exclusive to join and are either not largely composed of sailors or composed of sailors so intense about racing that it's difficult for young people to get into it. Lots of clubs have turned into nautically-themed social clubs over the years, and not enough offer learn-to-sail programs aimed at young adults.
  • Cost and Time: the obvious one. How many 20-year-olds have a few thousand to throw around on a dinghy in racing condition or a small cruiser for anything other than daysailing? How many 20-year-olds can afford the time to drive a boat that goes 6 mph or less? How many 20-year-olds can afford winter storage fees ($15-30/ ft.), mooring fees ($500-5000), registration fees ($50-100), insurance ($150-500) on top of actually buying the boat or performing maintenance and upgrades on it? Don't even get me started on how expensive rent has become, or student loans...
  • Skill and Seamanship: related to the above. Nautical culture is dying in America- and most nautical professions along with it. Fewer people are learning or getting taught seamanship and boat ownership skills. Without these skills, learning becomes an expensive activity (either from sailing lessons or by destroying boats) and maintenance has to be done in a yard (at $50/ hr.). Sailing is a very complicated activity with lots of nuance, practical skills, and terminology. And for what? A boat that goes a fraction of the speed of a powerboat, often angled over ludicrously to one side (sorry Tom Scott) and with lots of requisite skills to do safely and effectively?
  • Lots of Alternatives: SCUBA/ SNUBA diving. Stand-Up-Paddleboard. Kayaking. Canoeing. Powerboating. Wakeboarding. Surfing. Windsurfing/ kiteboarding. Swimming. All of these watersports have lots to recommend them and less in the way of financial/ technical/ practical barriers to get into.

I sail because I love sailing and the water. But I am an outlier with lots of nautical experience and appreciation for my age and demographic. To understand why young people don't sail, just ask yourself this question next time you go down to your boat: what would it take for a clueless 25-year-old to be able to do this? How much time and money did you have to spare when you were 25? Now imagine that wages haven't kept up with inflation and that the average college debt has quintupled while rent has tripled- would you be buying a boat?

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Ha, maybe because people still want top dollar for their 40 year old shit boxes!  If the decline of the boating public and the retirement of aging sailers means a market flooded with used vessels, I eagerly await a dealio on a nice boat!

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It is not impressive to be a local phrf yacht race winning captain. It is like soccer. It is something the french do. We had a run long time ago when sailing temporarily became  family activity, and boats were closely aligned, and costs were sort of in control, but the honchos with the big boats still need to rule the marina, the yacht club, and the fairways. Sure you can buy a boat, but when you take it out, you are just creating an opportunity to show your woman all the real big boys that could have her if they wanted and their big fancy boats sailed by other people for them while they taste wine. The big wigs have to back off and let the proletariat buy a boat and feel like they are kind of cool for a day or it is all just a waste of time. like the tide, they will back off, and then come back. just watch it. Look at excess costs, as if maintenance were not enough,! tax, tax, tax, license, mooring, and haulout is now an hourly deal jeezuz! in the day we had some solidarity with fishermen, and we worked on our boats in the yard together. now you pay more daily rate before even starting work to be hauled and on the hard by triple than to just sit at a dock!!! No working on your boat, gotta go to the yard, get hauled,and hire the professionals! FUK ME.

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The more I hear of this decline in sailing and boating in general, the more pleased I am to get out on the water and enjoy the great outdoors away from the crowded shore. For all the lost souls with their 40' sailboats and Marina fees- I too feel your pain- I have more than one, but I use them. However, there was such an increase in use of our local NJ waterways by large cruisers and powerboats from the late 70's through the early 2000's that every weekend it was a shit show parade through the channel markers and made our bay a fucking washtub of one designs. The folks who bought up big plastic cruisers in the 90's and those fucking Donzi's with 1000hp made their own graves the day gas hit over $2 a gallon.

When the gas crunch hit in 2007, my neighborhood went from 20+ loud gas guzzlers at 7am to none. That was wonderful and I prayed every day for high gas prices. Those days are all gone even now with lower gas prices. These assholes ruined it for themselves and their kids. They would never advise their kids to get into boating because they lost an assload of cash dumping the $300,000 twin 454's and can't afford to replace it now. 

The same can be said for the large cruising sailboats. They took a large number of people to rac PHRF and depleted the local one design fleets of available crew. After the peak of the PHRF, those Hunters, Pearsons and their like began to sit at the dock for lack of crew and racing interest. Boats couldn't be sold for what would be considered a "non-loss", so folks sat/sit on them and tell their sad tale to their friends. 

That said, our area has a huge one design racing Association of small craft for our shallow waters including E-scows, flying Scots, ensigns, Marshall Sanderlings, etc. With the exception of the E Scows, the other one designs last for years without wearing out and can be purchased at a relatively low price and are competitive at their level of competition.

The cost of club membership, boat, equipment and storage are always a factor and it may be that the same people who realize that they are not up to spending on boating as a hobby are the same types of people who flocked to comedy clubs in the 90's who finally realized that you don't have to hire a baby sitter, go to a club, spend time and money to experience a laugh when you can order a pizza and watch Chris Rock on HBO-same type of entertainment-just cheaper and easier. 

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I'm technically a Millennial but would petition to be let into the prior generation...

Most of my peers are saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt. Some over 100k. It's a crushing amount of money to pay off on top of the usual young & dumb consumption.

I'd also propose that most young people are conditioned for fast paced, short attention span activities. Its just not sexy to go around buoys at 6-7 knots on a Wednesday night, let alone a weekend regatta. Most can't get the time off (or afford it) even if they wanted. 

4 years ago was the last regatta I was able to attend (woo Bayview!) and even then I missed the Friday races. Since then I've bought a house and had a kid, guess how much sailing I've done since? My Hobie hasn't been mothballed for 5 years, and the boat I was crewing on can't get a full crew to even run the beer cans... 

Personally I crave being on the water more than just about anything else. Its just not in reach yet.

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I went from living to race, and a Pro BN, to getting married, having kids and building up a business.  For ten years I did not sail at all.  But, now with the kids fledged, and a way downsized home and lifestyle, I again sail a couple hundred races, a year on OPB's, from March to December.  Looks like I will make it the Atlantic Nationials, in Maine in August. So, don't give up hope, and crewing on Other Peoples Boats, costs next to nothing.

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2ND world problems B)

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Here we go again...

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

Here we go again...

It's like watching a movie for the 5th time.  You just know how it is going to end.

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3 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

It's like watching a movie for the 5th time.  You just know how it is going to end.

A secant and thirde wache is notte badde, I dointe allwayes uderstande the eddings.

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Maybe lakes have it easier because Lake Champlain is doing just fine. 

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We are booming around here. Attendance is up at events. Many new members are joining. 

 Our women's sailing camp attendance last week was the best ever 

 Are Junior sailing activities are at an all-time most active 

 The only thing missing in Austin Texas is Sailboat dealers in a new boatS. 

I suspect that will come around soon as well

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3 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

 The only thing missing in Austin Texas is Sailboat dealers in a new boatS. 

I suspect that will come around soon as well

Why dointe you oppen oune an gette riche?

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55 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Why dointe you oppen oune an gette riche?

 

Snags, I am fairly certain, that you are well aware of the fact, that to make a small fortune, in the racing sailboat industry, you must first start, with a large fortune; n'est ce pas?

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Golf is dying, too.  If it cost money or takes time, it's in trouble.  When I joined my current boat club ~17 years ago, I was pretty close to average age.  Today, 17 years later, I'm still pretty close to average age.  Weekend racing is effectively dead except for a very select number of one design fleets.  Weeknight racing is still active, but with about half the participation it had 15 years ago.  Lots of great deals on used boats.

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as a 26 soon to be 27yo, i can't afford lead. When some other of my current expenses get under control i may get back into dinghies, but i can't get close to dealing with lead. Tried, gave up.... and i wasn't even footing the entire bill. I can hop on someone else's boat and have a damn good time - i dont need to waggle the rudder to be happy on a boat. 

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2 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

Snags, I am fairly certain, that you are well aware of the fact, that to make a small fortune, in the racing sailboat industry, you must first start, with a large fortune; n'est ce pas?

Halve you evere heared a salesman saye "I macke to muche monney", I diddente thick so........

:)

 

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37 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Halve you evere heared a salesman saye "I macke to muche monney", I diddente thick so........

:)

 

How to be a millionaire in the boat business.  Start out with $2 million and get out fast.

 

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All I know is that if I suddenly feel like hanging out with a bunch of cranky old people,  I know just where to go...

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1 minute ago, Great Red Shark said:

All I know is that if I suddenly feel like hanging out with a bunch of cranky old people,  I know just where to go...

Truere wordes wearre nevere typped hearre........    :)

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Here we go again is right. perception is reality, you are as old and cranky as you want to be and want to present yourself to be.You are as fun as you want to be. Sailing is as "washed up" as you want it to be. You have the time and money for sailing that you prioritize. Anyone who says they "can't" is really saying they are choosing not to.

If the people are spoiling it for you, you never really liked sailing in the first place. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Keysrock35 said:

If the people are spoiling it for you, you never really liked sailing in the first place.

you wearre doeng so welle, if ortheres ruin a preconceived nossione, it dossente reflectte licke/disslicke foure annythinge.  Juste my to centes.

:)

 

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11 hours ago, Keysrock35 said:

 

If the people are spoiling it for you, you never really liked sailing in the first place try singlehanding. 

 

FTFY.

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12 minutes ago, bplipschitz said:

FTFY.

Indeed. I'm having a great time.

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15 minutes ago, bplipschitz said:

FTFY.

ergo, the people did not ruin it for you. You obviously like sailing, my point is made.  

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On 5/10/2017 at 10:52 AM, Chapped said:

The creature we know as boating and sailing, specifically, is approaching life support status across the USA. Marina slip rentals are shrinking while slip sizes grow. Mast-up storage is a ghost of its once lively populations and let's face it, folks just aren't getting out there as much as they used to. Here is another signpost on the road that we can choose to argue around, or just flat out ignore while we spin our way into the history books as a viable outdoor recreational pursuit.

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Boating-popularity-continues-rapid-decline-8044603.php

 

The Anchor Point Marina in some of the photos in that link is full this year. The Stamford Landing Marina, also in photos, is more expensive and likely will not be full or even close to it. Stamford Landing is a BLT Marina. The same BLT that tore down Yacht Haven West and is now building the replacement on a postage stamp plot on the patio of yet another apartment complex. The 14 acres that was Yacht Haven West sits empty and BLT is mum on what its intentions are with it. It is amazing what developers in Stamford get away with.

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I love sailing and I'd guess just about everyone on this forum does, to varying degrees, but I don't think sailing has much mojo in modern American culture.  The reasons have been done to death in all the threads of this type but money and time are two of the biggest.

I think the key is to consider how we each got into sailing and how we were able to stay in it (or not, as some of the young posters in here indicate).

I first took a class as a young man, a student, with other classmates of mine, as a lark.  The intro class was cheap, we were in the military and it was a class at the US Naval Academy on their fleet of engineless 24 ft Rainbows. Not sure if they still have these or what they have now.

During the last part of my military career I was stationed in San Diego and used to rent, from another MWR (Morale, Welfare and Recreation) marina at the now defunct Naval Training Center, Capri 22's with an outboard to sail around on San Diego Bay which I could do with my certificate from my old USNA MWR course and had a great time doing that.  Don't remember the rates but it was pretty cheap for a junior officer.  

During my last years in the military I committed to buying a used sailboat and getting a permanent slip which I've had ever since.  But without the years I was able to rent boats pretty cheaply I'm not sure I would have maintained the interest and enthusiasm to stick with it.

I just looked up the current cost of the basic MWR keelboat course at USNA and it's $220, probably about the same in adjusted dollars.

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Personally I hope that the numbers of registered boats continues to shrink and the cost of the damn things come down. I just turned 26 and bought a J80 for PHRF and one design as I couldn't reasonably afford anything in the $$$/Fun scale. I would love to see something affordable for me in the larger inboard racer cruiser catagory like a quest 30, J105, etc. But I don't anticipate that happening anytime soon.

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Brick: Those Rainbows you sailed at the USNA have been replaced by Colgate 26 for trainers. The Rainbows have moved to the mouth of Back Creek at the Annapolis Sailing School where they still perform the training function you enjoyed. Training is not as cheap as that military discount but it's still not too bad. The expensive part comes when you buy and maintain a boat and rent a slip.

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I grew up in off-road racing and attendance at those events is also down significantly. It's interesting actually, the limited/economical classes have shrunk, while the unlimited/expensive classes have ballooned bigly.

It might in a way be mimicking the changing wealth distribution of our society. It might also be related to people becoming consumed by the idea of needing 'the latest and greatest' (rather than being content in settling for something within their budget).

But I will say that more than anything else, the economic downturn destroyed class numbers - and they are yet to have fully recovered. Assuming continued economic stability, they'll probably come back...though maybe class distribution will remain perverted.

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32 minutes ago, Cape_taco12 said:

Personally I hope that the numbers of registered boats continues to shrink and the cost of the damn things come down. I just turned 26 and bought a J80 for PHRF and one design as I couldn't reasonably afford anything in the $$$/Fun scale. I would love to see something affordable for me in the larger inboard racer cruiser catagory like a quest 30, J105, etc. But I don't anticipate that happening anytime soon.

Shrinking is not so good as you might imagine.

Marinas close down, get bought by developers and are forever lost as water access points. Yacht builders fail and a source of boats is lost. Chandlers and parts suppliers fail, making it more expensive to buy parts and more difficult to source them. Service people change fields and services like rigging and composite work become difficult to find and afford.

Trust me, this is a Bad Thing.

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BLT killed yachting/boating in Stamford.

That is also the picture they want to paint... it's dead.

Too many used slips?

Let develop the land!

After destroying YH and more importantly - Destroyed the infrastructure and community that flourished there.  Case in point - Local sail maker Hathaway.  

Now, they are finally building a new yard across the harbor on the old Petro Oil site and apparently, it is going to be a Hinckley Yard.

I am just 10 min up the road at Norwalk Cove Marine and it is a completely different picture.  

In fact, it is like a "White Birch Forest" of masts in the winter.  There are also slightly more sailboats than power.   Slips are sold out, service work is busy as hell, (I am on land across from the service bays right now), boats changing hands and moving in and out via tractor trailer, new boats sold by the brokerage offices, ships store, restaurants etc...

The place is happening.  Yes, they are benefiting from the situation but it's always had the other elements.  Now the Fire Marshall capacity limits are maxed out every year.

my 2 cents

fs

As for storage... 

26' 

I am at about $145.00' in the water April - Nov.  

Winter Land Storage is $73.00', Mast up.

 

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On 5/12/2017 at 3:06 PM, Great Red Shark said:

So,  eighteen bucks a foot.   Yiikes.

GRS...

You mis read my friend,

It's $145.00 per foot... but to me it's worth it.

 

fs

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per month, no ?   those rates are for the whole season,  or monthly ?

I was trying to adjust it for the average monthly ( we don't pay different rates here, it's always sailing season )

So,  if your $ 145/ft covers eight months,  then it's $ 18.12 a foot, a month.

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