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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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Great thread guys (no pun intended)

Evans, Read said the sails would be priced like their dacron.  Time will tell.

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1 hour ago, DDW said:

Also, how is a repair done on these at sea (or in 3rd world port)?

5200 fast cure, or some other adhesive. Back in 3dl days, Dan Neri did a big adhesive test program, to determine what was best solution for offshore repairs (for the vendee users).  5200 was the solution - I had to do it once in the southern ocean when a carbon batten broke and punched some holes in the sail - was a bit messy but worked. But there may be a better adhesive solution now to bond to 3dl - not sure if there has been a new test project - I have not seen it.

I understood you cannot sew through them?

No, you can sew thru them. There is just a thickness question - depending on the "dpi" you might need an industrial machine to punch thru them - your mainsail would probably be over the 'by hand' sewing size.

If you can sew through them, should North add one additional process step, and punch pinholes every 2 inches or so to let them drain and dry?

Interestingly, When Ellen Mc had 3dl sails, she asked for and got north to punch grommet-ed drain holes in her mainsail.  I did the same. But it never got into the 'blue book' as standard procedure.  It helped to use the sail a bit first, get the folds (esp at the reef points) broken in, and then punch the holes in exactly the right drain places. In theory, anyone with a decent grommet kit could do it - perhaps glue on a small local reinforcing circular patch if you think you might be punching thru a critical load path :) North does not like to, but if you use dutchmen (lazy jack substitutes) they will punch a whole lot of holes in the sail to run the dutchman 'window-shade' cables thru.

 

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I would think gluing something like batten retaining webbing on with 5200 would be unsuccessful. Not much area. On my boat hand sewing the bent on main is about the only practical solution. Removing it as sea, and getting somewhere  to an onboard sewing machine (believe me, a Sailrite isn't going to do it) to repair something would only be attempted as a life or death matter. Which may speak to the practicality of this large a sail as much as anything. 

With a great deal of effort the sail can be flaked in a predicable pattern, so maybe special grommeted holes would work. If the major remaining drawback of 3Di is that it won't drain, adding a perforation step to the process would solve that once and for everyone. And it wouldn't matter how you flaked it. With the more or less solid material, could one just find the areas of concern, and drill or punch a 0.050 hole every 4"? If that results in a strength problem, then 3Di is a non-starter. Otherwise I could see green blotches surrounding  each grommet since they won't drain perfectly. For Ellen, I'm sure the concern was more about the weight of the trapped water, and solution works. 

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6 minutes ago, DDW said:

I would think gluing something like batten retaining webbing on with 5200 would be unsuccessful.

all I can say is it worked 'well enough' in my particular situation - I was down in the southern ocean half way from Chile to Australia (we were skipping Africa). I had Dan on the sat phone talk me thru it. So, I had a carbon batten smash/break where it hit a stay when the sail 'popped back and forth' in light air. It tore thru the spectra webbing belting that was on both sides of the pocket and ripped a vertical hole/tear in the sail. I spliced the batten back together - cleaned up the broken ends a bit and glued a rod down the middle (was hollow) of the splice.  Then i glued several sized staggered patches on over the tear. I clamped them 24 hours to cure.  I waited a bit for a decent weather window to do all this.  It held up for several thousand miles, then the batten broke again - but in a 'softer, less sharp pointed' way, did not punch thru the patch.

 For Ellen, I'm sure the concern was more about the weight of the trapped water, and solution works. 

Yes, exactly. The concern was a quite heavy bag of water swinging on the boom while reefed.

 

 

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I roll my sails so am less concerned with collecting water. I think the sails look cool, all smooth and white.

20170407-north-sails-3di-nordac-2.jpg

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The problem I had last year was the batten punched through the 2" heavy nylon webbing holding it in the pocket at the leach. I searched the boat and cut a piece of webbing from a spare harness, was able to hand sew that (with a sewing awl, took about 3 hours) good enough for another month. It is this sort of thing, heavily loaded webbing holding a batten or reefing ring or something like that on, which seems like a real challenge for 5200. A patch in the middle of the sail I can see.

I have had a lot of trouble retaining the battens. They are big (longest one is 23' and is 7/8" solid putruded rod). It has been the upper ones that are most heavily loaded and keep coming out. Originally there was a double velcro closure, that didn't work well at all so we added lacing to it, that did work until the batten punched a hole in the webbing. A couple more about to go. This winter I had the loft sew the leach ends closed wrapped with heavy Dyneema webbing. I will insert the battens from the luff, and assembly the receptacle around them. I also 3D printed some proper batten ends to give the webbing a chance - Bainbridge makes some but they are kind of a joke. When one of the upper battens gets loose at the leach, it backs out of the receptacle, then moves forward overlapping the mast. It will then foul everything on the mast when you try to strike sail (good thing I don't have many things on the mast). Sewing the leach end closed also *should* eliminate the protrusions on the leach, which hang up on the lazyjacks trying to hoist sail. 

KDH those sails do look good. And they are white. I'm less concerned about the weight of the water too - more the ecosystem growth potential. 

 

Batten.thumb.jpg.a2b3aade76e44d9b84c99f945bd32c02.jpg

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I was losing battens, particularly at the top of the sail where you can't see them loosen.

I now use tight loops of double sided velcro tape at right angles to the batten end, to make a sort of pocket that holds the batten, works so far.

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5 hours ago, DDW said:

I cannot believe that 1% stretch in plastic sailcloth is destruction. These fibers are all pretty elastic. In any case exactly as Estarzinger points out, a figure like 1% has to be quite arbitrary, and cannot be the same for dacron, Spectra, PBO, carbon, kevlar, etc. So whoever said that was blowing smoke up your skirt. Also flutter and accelerated age testing can and should be done, it is common in other industries. 

If that's the case, it's a personal friend who is doing so, which I doubt. It's one test, he described the method of testing. I'm sure they do others.

I didn't say 1% was "destructive" as in the cloth is ruined. But according to what he told me, it is the point were the cloth fibers will no longer return to their original shape. It's entirely possible I am misunderstanding what he told me, there was a lot more conversation about cloth construction than I fully grasped.

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48 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

I was losing battens, particularly at the top of the sail where you can't see them loosen.

I now use tight loops of double sided velcro tape at right angles to the batten end, to make a sort of pocket that holds the batten, works so far.

Not sure I follow. My original setup was an overfold of webbing held by about 8" of 2" wide velcro, which was overlaid by another 2" going the other way, also 2" velcro. The battens had no trouble at all opening this up. The added lashings held but were obviously under a lot of stress. This can be seen by the amount of stretch and distortion in the nylon webbing (and the hole). 

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3 hours ago, DDW said:

 It is this sort of thing, heavily loaded webbing holding a batten or reefing ring or something like that on, which seems like a real challenge for 5200. 

Yea, that would be a different situation and I agree with you.  It must have come up several times in vendee and volvo style races and there must be an 'approved' sort of solution for it.  If you do talk with Dan Neri - he would probably know what has worked. Only once I have worked on something like that - I had the head rip cleanly off a running sail (truly crap design with a major stress riser - from north NZ - lol) but it was light cloth and I could sew and glue to fix it.  With your problem I would be tempted to try to create anchor points (either web loops or punch holes - rivets or grommets) for a spectra lashing across the end of the batten - but I would get on the sat phone to the sailmaker first.

I have had a lot of trouble retaining the battens.

You have big battens - but again there must be a proven solution for this used on the G class cats and such (which Dan would know). We had a piece of heavy triple webbing over the end of the batten (which had a fitting on it - smooth and wide surface, not raw end batten) that was set up with a spectra lashing to tension it. Worked well, had minimal wear on the webbing.

 

 

 

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^^ yup, I can'f find a pic of our batten end fittings, but they were sort of a combinations of these two:

They screwed into the batten back like this:

batten2.jpg.7fca28e0f841f7541a661c1f6110a254.jpg

and then held the webbing a bit like these, except with a bit more rounded edges

battenend.thumb.jpg.c97220a03a8d3e52e17e725f6d098bd1.jpg

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1 hour ago, DDW said:

Not sure I follow. My original setup was an overfold of webbing held by about 8" of 2" wide velcro, which was overlaid by another 2" going the other way, also 2" velcro. The battens had no trouble at all opening this up. The added lashings held but were obviously under a lot of stress. This can be seen by the amount of stretch and distortion in the nylon webbing (and the hole). 

Can't find pics.

battens are held in like you describe, protrude around 2" from luff, covered by the 2" Velcro straps.

i then wrap black double sided 1" Velcro tape tightly at right angles, bunches  up the ends of the 2" straps so it can't slip off the end.

makes a pocket for the batten end, and seems to stop the 2" Velcro straps from creeping.

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for sail repair - if you have a problem you can't glue, and you can't sew, I guess you are left with mechanical - rivets, thru bolts, grommets and such . . . . is there a fourth major alternative/approach I am overlooking?

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1 minute ago, estarzinger said:

if you have a problem you can't glue, and you can't sew, I guess you are left with mechanical - rivets, thru bolts, grommets and such . . . . is there a fourth major alternative/approach I am overlooking?

Keep an old sail as a spare...

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^^ yes, agreed, we certainly had 'spare' headsails, but never carried a spare main - pretty damn big and difficult to wrestle on at sea.  We used our trysail as a 'spare' a couple times when there was a problem with the main I did not want to fix.  Another southern ocean situation we had was one of the harken bat cars broke, spilled all its balls and gouged the track so we could not raise or lower other cars past that spot.   had a spare section of track, but we actually used the trysail until landfall that time because I did not want to replace the track section at sea.   

a total aside, but  . . . about repairs at sea and in remote places . . . . there are a very few people in the industry who actually really know their shit inside and out at the top pro level (there are a lot of pretenders - I could count on my fingers and toes the real deals and still have a few fingers left).  It is really nice to have these few people on sat phone speed dial - I had two sailmakers, a B&G guy and a yanmar guy who all saved my bacon a couple times.

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A screw in batten end only works with tubes. right?

Bainbridge makes some that slip on a round batten and create a straight flat end. Not in the sizes I needed though, and they are a rough bit of kit. But this is the modern age so I just printed my own in exactly the size I needed.

On my boat the main is so big it isn't practical to carry a spare. And with no jib, it's all I've got. Well there is the mizzen. And the asym and the mizzen staysail, which I would figure out a way to fly like a jib if required. A bricked main will not fit through the companionway or the cockpit hatch on my boat. Bending it on is about a half day hard labor at the dock. Might be possible in a calm day at sea. That's why I say I have to repair in place. 

Through bolting might be the best solution for some high stress areas. Heck, maybe a 3D printer would be of more use than a sewing machine...

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2 minutes ago, DDW said:

A screw in batten end only works with tubes. right?

yes, but I imagine you could make a hollow 'fit over' external sleeve end fitting for your solid rods. You have all the machining capability to do something clever here.

as I said above - the french g-class guys must have this sorted out.

If you get to know a top french pro or two . . . it is interesting . . . they both have all sorts of really top contacts . . .and they have access to 'warehouses' just full of spare stuff from finished french programs - all sorts of exotic stuff just lying around. It is a different world that suddenly opens up.  

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On 2017-5-18 at 1:12 PM, estarzinger said:

 

I might note that 3di's do in fact have seams.  Their panels are laid up on flat tables, broad seamed, and then glued together (on the mold).  usually these seams are reliable, but north has occasionally had QA problems and the seams have come apart.

 

 

 

They don't have "seams". They are scarf joins. Quite different when referring to traditional or panelled sail making. The scarfs do not add any bulk, hinge points or allow any form of stretch as any panelled sail would where you have overlapped material at each seam, glued or sewn together.

Edited by qwerty123

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They are built in sections and vacuum bags and cured into one piece. I think North is correct when they state that they are seamless, but they do start in pieces. I have a feeling it's more dependent on whether you like North or not. 

I don't exactly bleed blue, but through the whole process have been impressed with North.

We originally went with North for one reason: our local North loft guy was the only one who would give me the time of day. He came out (about 100 miles each way) measured and designed the exact sail that would work for us. All for about the same price as a generic Hyde sail.  He also spent the afternoon helping me make decisions based on what we want for our boat, and not just sail related. He helped me with deck layout and all sorts of other stuff. Mind you we are only talking about a Genoa for a Ranger 26. I'm not exactly a cash cow. 

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On 5/22/2017 at 11:21 AM, B.J. Porter said:

They way it was described to me is that the 1% number is the number of pounds of force it takes to stretch the cloth 1% working on a 18" x 2" strip of the cloth.

1% is NOT a point on the curve per se, 1% is the amount of stretch beyond which the cloth no longer recovers it's original shape after stretching.

You can do a 2% number and plot it, but that cloth is baked. 1% IS tested to destruction, in the sense that it is the point where you have stretched the cloth permanently.

I'm not sure how ripping strength to split or tear the cloth is as relevant. I suspect most sailcloth tears are a result of age and degradation rather than destruction of new cloth during normal use.

Somewhat correct, B.J.    The standard is 16" x 2".  Actually, that is jaw spacing, the sample itself is about 20" long.  You need some extra to clamp in the jaws of the machine. Anyway, the 1% number is pounds of force generated on the jaws of the tensile tester when they are moved 1% longer than original, ie. the strain is 0.16".  It most certainly is a point on the curve.  At 1% stretch almost no textile is deformed permanently.  It might take a minute or two to recover, but most materials will recover most of the way.  By 2%, some might be permanently deformed, but things like 0.75oz spinnaker cloth can stretch 10+% without permanent damage depending on type of nylon fiber used.

However, the sailcloth test standard pulls the 16" x 2" sample to 1" of extension, ie strain of 1".  If testing on fill-oriented sailcloth, on the bias, the cloth is usually pretty beat at this much extension.  You can hear the resin crackling as test nears completion, especially if it is really firm cloth.  Warp usually comes back most of the way because it is crimped, the fibers are just beginning to fully straighten.  Fill (Weft) yarns are quite straight and will possibly experience some damage at 1" of extension.  However they won't be broken.  Even on a 6oz Dacron sample with 400 denier weft yarns, total sample failure will occur somewhere well north of 500lbs.  When doing tensile break tests, only 0.5" wide samples are used because you need a very heavy-duty tensile tester to test full 2" widths, especially if the sample is quite heavy.  For instance, I've seen 1000 denier fill yarn 10oz dacron produce well more than 400lbs of force across a 0.5" sample, and travel required to do this was easily 15% of the original length of the sample.

Tear strength, or tongue tear as it's known in textile industry, is somewhat relevant, but less so, just as you suggest.  It is a factor of weave looseness and fiber tenacity.  A loosely woven, high tenacity fiber will have excellent tear strength.  A really tightly woven lower tenacity fiber with a firm finish will tear much more easily.   This is much more important for spinnaker cloth than on upwind sails, and is why spinnaker cloth is generally very loosely constructed.

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13 minutes ago, nlmasopust said:

Somewhat correct, B.J.    The standard is 16" x 2".  Actually, that is jaw spacing, the sample itself is about 20" long.  You need some extra to clamp in the jaws of the machine. Anyway, the 1% number is pounds of force generated on the jaws of the tensile tester when they are moved 1% longer than original, ie. the strain is 0.16".  It most certainly is a point on the curve.  At 1% stretch almost no textile is deformed permanently.  It might take a minute or two to recover, but most materials will recover most of the way.  By 2%, some might be permanently deformed, but things like 0.75oz spinnaker cloth can stretch 10+% without permanent damage depending on type of nylon fiber used.

However, the sailcloth test standard pulls the 16" x 2" sample to 1" of extension, ie strain of 1".  If testing on fill-oriented sailcloth, on the bias, the cloth is usually pretty beat at this much extension.  You can hear the resin crackling as test nears completion, especially if it is really firm cloth.  Warp usually comes back most of the way because it is crimped, the fibers are just beginning to fully straighten.  Fill (Weft) yarns are quite straight and will possibly experience some damage at 1" of extension.  However they won't be broken.  Even on a 6oz Dacron sample with 400 denier weft yarns, total sample failure will occur somewhere well north of 500lbs.  When doing tensile break tests, only 0.5" wide samples are used because you need a very heavy-duty tensile tester to test full 2" widths, especially if the sample is quite heavy.  For instance, I've seen 1000 denier fill yarn 10oz dacron produce well more than 400lbs of force across a 0.5" sample, and travel required to do this was easily 15% of the original length of the sample.

Tear strength, or tongue tear as it's known in textile industry, is somewhat relevant, but less so, just as you suggest.  It is a factor of weave looseness and fiber tenacity.  A loosely woven, high tenacity fiber will have excellent tear strength.  A really tightly woven lower tenacity fiber with a firm finish will tear much more easily.   This is much more important for spinnaker cloth than on upwind sails, and is why spinnaker cloth is generally very loosely constructed.

Thanks. Good stuff.

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We've been happy with the Sailbone battens but I think they are gone, we haven't broken one yet and they seem to stay in the pocket.  I agree with what others have said, if you loose a big main at sea you are not going to fix it at sea, they are simply to big, heavy and awkward to move around.  We assemble ours on the dock an then lift it onto the boom , I can't imagine the two of us trying to do repairs on deck with the boat moving around.

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7 hours ago, qwerty123 said:

They don't have "seams". They are scarf joins. Quite different when referring to traditional or panelled sail making. The scarfs do not add any bulk, hinge points or allow any form of stretch as any panelled sail would where you have overlapped material at each seam, glued or sewn together.

LOL . . . I would not be happy if someone sold me a 'seamless' rope or piece of webbing, and I discovered it had a splice in it - even a 'tapered one'. Same with a long piece of teak for say a toe rail - if it was sold as 'seamless' I would not expect to find a scarf join.

Also, your (I am presuming you are from North) 3di sails have broken just exactly at these seams - when the adhesive got f&^ked up - opened up, tore clear across - there are public photos. 

If you only want to compare to a rolled goods simple overlap seam - yes I agree there is less of a stress riser - but there are ways to make a rolled good seam better than that.  And at least when I was involved, the 3di seam did in fact add some bulk (to get zero bulk you would have to exactly match a one tape step down/step up by hand placement across the entire width of the sail, which I dont believe you have the qa to do, nor actually would want to do) .

I suspect these are going to be pretty decent sails, especially if you keep the price to competitive Dacron levels. But I think we can both agree that a total lack of structural panel joins (used just to avoid the semantic game you are playing) is not one of the benefits.

You don't need to be slime balls - you actually have good products.

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I think a scarfed join is still a seam.

The Stanley Paris mainsail. I'm willing to believe there was some operator error involved, however. Especially with powered winches aboard.

The report is that it happened during a "controlled jibe." When I'm cruising I use a chicken jibe in other than light air. Makes me a sissy, maybe, but it's more predictable.

 

kiwimain.1.jpg

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jfyi, I saw this "The expected lifespan from the date of delivery is: 5 years for North Panel Cloth Coastal and Radian sails, 4 Years for North Panel Laminate Tour sails and 3 years for 3Di Endurance Sails." in North's Cruising Sail Quality Guarantee

What I was looking for was some current detail on how 3di is doing the leach edge detail.

qwerty123's comment about the scarf not being a stress riser is really a red herring because panel seams (even very blunt ones) typically dont fail due to stress riser fatigue at the edges.  Perhaps a few have, but that is not the majority failure mode - which is that the join simply comes apart (a close review of their warranty data would confirm this. I had a very typical example with a North paneled spectra mainsail. Some abrasion on the stitching from a spreader, and the seam just peeled open for several feet).

However the issue he brings up (stress riser edge fatigue failure) is a real failure point on leaches - where the doubled over leach tape creates a hard point which the sail flutter hinges on and weakens the fabric right in front of it.  I was curious how this was currently handled in 3di - if that construction solved or reduced it it at all.  The photos seem to show that they are still using a doubled over tape (but perhaps a narrower one than normal?) to constrain the  leach line - and the edges dont look like they are staggered (as is best practice on 'regular' sails).  But it may be that they are able to step the cloth there to smooth the transition and create less of a hinge?  It that is actually the case, they would have a detail that is specific honest and productive to talk about (but obviously not if the leach transition is not actually significantly smoothed by the normal tape layout).

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8 hours ago, nlmasopust said:

 At 1% stretch almost no textile is deformed permanently.  It might take a minute or two to recover, but most materials will recover most of the way.  By 2%, some might be permanently deformed...

Kind of what I thought. If you look at PET plastics (Dacron) and divide the tensile by the young's, about 2% looks like the permanent deformation point, and that is solid material - texile should be stretchier. Given that, and the fact that good warp oriented cloth has little crimp on the warp, you would expect the PE fiber content of Hydranet and the like to be carrying some load, particularly in higher wind/load ranges. This could easily explain the field experience of them lasting longer: when the dacron can no longer handle the load the much stiffer PE steps in and saves it. But I would love to see some tests on the textile tester showing exactly what happens.

5 hours ago, Bryanjb said:

I agree with what others have said, if you loose a big main at sea you are not going to fix it at sea, they are simply to big, heavy and awkward to move around.  We assemble ours on the dock an then lift it onto the boom , I can't imagine the two of us trying to do repairs on deck with the boat moving around.

I assemble mine on the dock, zip it up in the stackpack, then sling it onto the boom using the spare halyard and mizzen staysail halyard. After some practice, I can do it by myself in about half a day. If even a minor powerboat wake starts rocking the boat during the process, things get unruly in a hurry. At sea you would find a way, but only if your life depended on it. And the idea of dragging it below and pushing it through a small sewing machine just ain't happenin'.

52 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

jfyi, I saw this "The expected lifespan from the date of delivery is: 5 years for North Panel Cloth Coastal and Radian sails, 4 Years for North Panel Laminate Tour sails and 3 years for 3Di Endurance Sails." in North's Cruising Sail Quality Guarantee

3 or 4 years (even 5) is ludicrous. OK if racing, when the object is to turn thousand dollar bills into 5 dollar trophies, this helps accelerate the process. But cruising, that makes sailing a nonstarter. When I built my boat, the sails cost about $25K, the engine $9K. The engine has a life of around 20 years or more. If I had to buy 5 sets of sails in that time, that's $125K (or more, due to inflation) spent on wind propulsion. Especially given that most cruising boats are really not used that much. A motor yacht would be far more economical, even with $4/gal diesel. I know this is the conclusion Dashew has come to. 

North is in the business of selling new sails, so I understand trying to do so. I also understand that due to the wide variability of boats, usage, crew experience, etc., they could not guarantee sails for very long. But to admit that the life of a sail in ordinary average use (probably 50 days a year max?) is 3 years - that is egregious. 3 years of continuous cruising with short layovers, OK, but that isn't what they mean, very few boats are used that way. 

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1 hour ago, DDW said:

Kind of what I thought. If you look at PET plastics (Dacron) and divide the tensile by the young's, about 2% looks like the permanent deformation point, and that is solid material - texile should be stretchier. Given that, and the fact that good warp oriented cloth has little crimp on the warp, you would expect the PE fiber content of Hydranet and the like to be carrying some load, particularly in higher wind/load ranges. This could easily explain the field experience of them lasting longer: when the dacron can no longer handle the load the much stiffer PE steps in and saves it. But I would love to see some tests on the textile tester showing exactly what happens.

I assemble mine on the dock, zip it up in the stackpack, then sling it onto the boom using the spare halyard and mizzen staysail halyard. After some practice, I can do it by myself in about half a day. If even a minor powerboat wake starts rocking the boat during the process, things get unruly in a hurry. At sea you would find a way, but only if your life depended on it. And the idea of dragging it below and pushing it through a small sewing machine just ain't happenin'.

3 or 4 years (even 5) is ludicrous. OK if racing, when the object is to turn thousand dollar bills into 5 dollar trophies, this helps accelerate the process. But cruising, that makes sailing a nonstarter. When I built my boat, the sails cost about $25K, the engine $9K. The engine has a life of around 20 years or more. If I had to buy 5 sets of sails in that time, that's $125K (or more, due to inflation) spent on wind propulsion. Especially given that most cruising boats are really not used that much. A motor yacht would be far more economical, even with $4/gal diesel. I know this is the conclusion Dashew has come to. 

North is in the business of selling new sails, so I understand trying to do so. I also understand that due to the wide variability of boats, usage, crew experience, etc., they could not guarantee sails for very long. But to admit that the life of a sail in ordinary average use (probably 50 days a year max?) is 3 years - that is egregious. 3 years of continuous cruising with short layovers, OK, but that isn't what they mean, very few boats are used that way. 

And this is why, at the end of the day, cross cut dacron is very a very good bargain and is very tough to beat for the average sailor.  I understand why North is trying to sell 3di dacron, they have open capacity they want to fill.  And from a market standpoint, for each racing boat on the water there are 1,000 cruisers, North doesn't have to pick up a very big percentage of those sailors to add substantial utilization to sunk capital.

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54 minutes ago, Bryanjb said:

And this is why, at the end of the day, cross cut dacron is very a very good bargain and is very tough to beat for the average sailor.  I understand why North is trying to sell 3di dacron, they have open capacity they want to fill.  And from a market standpoint, for each racing boat on the water there are 1,000 cruisers, North doesn't have to pick up a very big percentage of those sailors to add substantial utilization to sunk capital.

Of course, an average cruiser would consider a nice North cross cut sail to be good for 10 years or more. A radial cut should be good for more. Maybe a cruiser would consider a 3Di sail good for 6 years. Nevertheless is represents their lack of understanding of the customer. I get that it is marketing puffery, but still.....

It could explain why sailmakers think having a laminate mildew to embarrassment in 2 years it considered acceptable to them and why "they don't have that problem anymore" - they consider its life to be 2 years. 

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I keep telling you guys , I had laminated sails for ten years with no mildew. I left my main on over winter. I know I should have taken it of but I was too lazy. I'm a bum.

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Well, I had the exact same experience as DDW, and feel the same way about the experience. Mine were North spectra laminates. 

We both had/have taffeta, which sailman said once was a problem with mildew.

I'm a bum too. I don't think that was the problem.

But I love that white and smooth look of the 3Di NORDAC. I wonder why the marketeers went with that all caps thing. I'm a bum and a sucker. I can't wait to have those newfangled sails on my boat!

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My 2009 Fusion main and roller furling jib have lived above decks probably since they were made. In SF no less. No mildew. I don't think they were used a whole lot recently but SF is SF and it blows like stink and rains all winter there. I hope to get several more years on them. 

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OK, bum to bum Mine were UK Tape Drive.

 

Hey kdh:

 How is that new ax?

I want you to know that I have a series of drives planned for you when you bring one of you exotic cars out here. If the smell of cow shit doesn't bother you we can have a good time. Ruby and I like it. It's fecund.

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1 minute ago, Bob Perry said:

OK, bum to bum Mine were UK Tape Drive.

 

Hey kdh:

 How is that new ax?

I want you to know that I have a series of drives planned for you when you bring one of you exotic cars out here. If the smell of cow shit doesn't bother you we can have a good time. Ruby and I like it. It's fecund.

I love the smell of cow shit. We smell mostly horse piss around here when the wind and humidity are just right.

Here's something about the new axe. Takes a long time to build. The good people at Alembic build great instruments and it's worth the wait.

They were also the epicenter, though not directly, of LSD production in the 60s as one of the support groups for the Grateful Dead. A bit before my time, but "Orange Sunshine" can be peripherally associated with them.

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Wow, when I say "discuss" you guys don't disappoint!

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6 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Wow, when I say "discuss" you guys don't disappoint!

I'm hijacking the bottom line:  I need a new main NOW!  North has the best representation here on Oahu--or so I've been told.  Great guys, met them and downed lotsa rum after races.  So what does my Nordic 40, husband and wife crew, need?  You saw the 46664 failure above.

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Don't listen to me. But a radial made with North Radian cloth is what I have now and I think you can't go wrong.

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2 minutes ago, kdh said:

Don't listen to me. But a radial made with North Radian cloth is what I have now and I think you can't go wrong.

I am listening.  Thanks.

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I just got a new UK carbon X drive main... awesome!!!

 

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

I keep telling you guys , I had laminated sails for ten years with no mildew.

But Bob, we all know designers dont sail - something to do with ego's being water soluble.

 

34 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Wow, when I say "discuss" you guys don't disappoint!

I have told the North guys to be sure to note down that this thread is all your fault. They will charge you double next time you get a price.

16 minutes ago, Whisper said:

I am listening.  Thanks.

A good woven Dacron sail, is hard to beat value for a boat like yours. If you want to spend a bit more $ for a bit more 'performance' Go radial for main, and laminate for jib . . . but dont feel you 'need to'.

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3 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

A good woven Dacron sail, is hard to beat value for a boat like yours. If you want to spend a bit more $ for a bit more 'performance' Go radial for main, and laminate for jib . . . but dont feel you 'need to'.

Thank you, Evans

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Raced a North Dacron Radian Main for 4 years on an S2 9.1.  By the end of year 4 you could see some loss of shape, but not bad, and mostly from a "vs the perfect racing shape" perspective.  I was very happy with it...

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Been following the discussion with interest but think that tech talk on loads is neglecting real world cruising on a couple of levels.

1) roll ability runs counter to stiffness(I'm not a sailmaker and I'm sure Dan Neri's got the solution) The minor performance gains your talking about would probably be noticeable on a suite of racing sails but maybe not a furling jib or boom furling main. At this point I would want more maneouveriblility for furling and less stiffness. Last year a guy pulled up to the slip next to me for a couple of days with a brand new Hanse 41 or something with a furling Genoa with a clew board so big you couldn't get a proper double wrap. I had to scratch my head on that one.

2) Discussion of accompanying sheets with said stiffer sails. I'd want a little flex or stretch in the sheet with such a stiff sail.

3) Again, minor performance gain vs substantial loss in durability. 

I'm in no way an expert but do have a little insight. One time I went through about a 120 Farr40 sails for a dual boat program to sort out what was worth training with etc. Probably a ten year inventory. Interesting to see what was damaged by stretch, UV, or just storage. 

If you baby these type of sails, yes they will last a little longer. There's a difference between a perfect fold into a sausage sail bag and subsequent dehumidification, and riding them hard and putting them away wet. At that point, complaining about mildew is like complaining about bad food in a cheap restaurant, can't help you there.

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12 hours ago, DDW said:

Kind of what I thought. If you look at PET plastics (Dacron) and divide the tensile by the young's, about 2% looks like the permanent deformation point, and that is solid material - texile should be stretchier. Given that, and the fact that good warp oriented cloth has little crimp on the warp, you would expect the PE fiber content of Hydranet and the like to be carrying some load, particularly in higher wind/load ranges. This could easily explain the field experience of them lasting longer: when the dacron can no longer handle the load the much stiffer PE steps in and saves it. But I would love to see some tests on the textile tester showing exactly what happens.

I tried to ask for this from the man himself, Moose, in this thread long ago:  

But no response.  He even promised to fill in details about DP's Pro-Radial!  I was shocked and saddened.  :rolleyes:

From what I've heard from sailmakers and also sailors, I think what you're suggesting about radial Hydranet is probably true.  Initial performance of mixed-fiber textiles seems to be about the same as their homogeneously woven brothers, but after some time the higher modulus material starts to take up the slack in the lower-modulus one and give you a longer run of decent shape-holding.  The higher abrasion resistance of UHMWPE on the surface of Hydranet weave would also provide a lot of benefit for durability.

One thing I know for sure is that finishing mixed-fiber cloth is an absolute ROYAL pain in the ass.  Different shrinkage rates, different seizing requirements when warping up beams for weaving, loom settings totally different.  All these things must be compromised slightly between the two in production.  These cloths are more expensive for reasons beyond just the fact that one of the fibers is 'exotic'.

IMNSHO, not much can shake a stick at durability/cost/performance ratio of super-high-tenacity, high shrinkage, top-quality polyester fibers, woven and finished to perfection for maximum number of ends and picks possible in the final product (Thread count for the laymen) for a given weight.  This type of cloth costs marginally more to use in a sail compared to the overall cost.  It is what I would recommend for Whisper's Nordic 40, same as Evans.

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I'm just going to emphasize that a radial constructed sail made of warp-oriented dacron has the important basic shape advantage of aligning the load paths of the sail with the strength of the cloth.

We tend to associate dacron with cross-cut construction.

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I recently asked John Krestchmer about his sails.  He gets 20,000 miles out of a set of Doyle offshore dacron sails.  For him, that's two years worth of sailing!

I agree that radial cut sails are the sweet spot in terms of value/longevity, but I'm drawn to the bright shiny objects of high-tech sails nonetheless.

 

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3 hours ago, kdh said:

I'm just going to emphasize that a radial constructed sail made of warp-oriented dacron has the important basic shape advantage of aligning the load paths of the sail with the strength of the cloth.

We tend to associate dacron with cross-cut construction.

It's also both material intensive (lots of waste) and labor intensive to build.  Better than crosscut from a shape holding perspective, but still woefully less effective at matching fibers to load paths as a 3di type sail.

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Everyone likes nice looking sails that hold their shape up and down the wind range but cruisers aren't trying to get to the weather mark first.  It seems to me most of them avoid weather work altogether.  So what are the benefits of high tech sails with minimal stretch when half the time you're sailing down wind with the main on the boom and just a poled out genny?

Cruisers want durable sails at competitive prices.  It'll be interesting to see how or if the Dacron 3di catches on.  Hope it doesn't mildew like our North spectra triradial.

 

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2 hours ago, Bryanjb said:

Everyone likes nice looking sails that hold their shape up and down the wind range but cruisers aren't trying to get to the weather mark first.  It seems to me most of them avoid weather work altogether.  So what are the benefits of high tech sails with minimal stretch when half the time you're sailing down wind with the main on the boom and just a poled out genny?

Cruisers want durable sails at competitive prices.  It'll be interesting to see how or if the Dacron 3di catches on.  Hope it doesn't mildew like our North spectra triradial.

 

Speak for yourself. This cruiser wants good performance at all angles and especially wind strengths. It's nice to not crank the engines in light air, f'example 

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I always get a chuckle out of these discussions, as everybody's needs and requirements are likely different.  There is no "one" right answer.  Like everything else in sailing, sails are a compromise.  What's important to you determines where you fall in the range of compromise.  If durability and economy are most important to you, cross cut dacron is the most likely answer.  As your performance expectations increase, you pay with decreases in durability and economy.  I can see where this product has applicability across a range of requirements...but that doesn't make it right for everybody.  Yes there are sails that will outlast it.  Yes there are sails that out perform in (from a shape holding and light weight perspective).   

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19 minutes ago, Crash said:

I always get a chuckle out of these discussions, as everybody's needs and requirements are likely different.  There is no "one" right answer.  Like everything else in sailing, sails are a compromise.  What's important to you determines where you fall in the range of compromise.  If durability and economy are most important to you, cross cut dacron is the most likely answer.  As your performance expectations increase, you pay with decreases in durability and economy.  I can see where this product has applicability across a range of requirements...but that doesn't make it right for everybody.  Yes there are sails that will outlast it.  Yes there are sails that out perform in (from a shape holding and light weight perspective).   

Bingo

That's why we ordered one. We wont be competing for giant pickle dishes, but I don't like going slow either. We'll race a bit just in club races and local stuff. I get my fix for serious racing on OPB.  Taking performance, durability, and cost into consideration this product falls right where we find ourselves. 

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It's actually much easier to put racers into a single box. Racers are interested in only 3 things:

1) Upwind speed.

2) Upwind speed.

3) Upwind speed.

To them the difference in a new 3Dl sail and a 2 year old one might be two tenths of a knot, and this is everything in a hotly contested class, a virtually unbeatable advantage.

Cruisers on the other hand fall into a number of boxes:

1) Cottage on the water harbor queen.

2) Daysailer

3) Weekender

4) 3 weeks a year voyager

5) 5 months a year commuter cruiser

6) Full time long distance cruiser

And probably many more. The first 3 encompass probably 90% of the "cruiser" market. The daysailer and weekender probably care about upwind speed more than the others, after all they are returning from whence they came and one of those legs is likely upwind. Also you are doing it more for the sailing and less for the voyaging. The longer term cruisers are going to wait for favorable wind, or choose a destination in a favorable direction. To them, two tenths of a knot is round off error. I'm in the #5 category, In the last eight years I have put about 13,000 miles on the log. I averaged about 6.5 knots. That took 2000 hours (nearly 1000 of that was motoring because there was no wind, but let's ignore that). If I could get  two tenths of a knot extra speed upwind, and spent half my miles upwind, I'd average 6.6 knots. In 8 years I'd have saved 30 hours, 3.7 per year (about half that, if we consider motoring). If you are 30 hours late at the end of a race, the committee boat has already gone home and your finish will not even be scored. 30 hours late at the end of a weekend and you missed work on Monday. But 30 hours late on an 8 year cruise? I wouldn't even notice, if I did I would begrudge the thing ending 30 hours early. But $25,000 for new sails? THAT, I am going to notice. 

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42 minutes ago, DDW said:

But $25,000 for new sails? THAT, I am going to notice. 

I'll be quite interested in seeing how the mildew on the North radial Spectra mainsail does in the Caribbean next year, I'm hoping the sun and oxidation of the salt will greatly reduce it? Kind of hate to throw away a $30,000 main for some mildew, but if it doesn't clear it up we'll be ringing up the sailmaker.  It won't be Spectra with a taffeta I can guarantee that.

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Evans, thanks, couldn't have done that better myself!

In the tropics or near tropics you have more heat and moisture which promotes mildew. If you can fly the sail a lot the sun tends to bleach it out a little and it gets to dry. Our mizzen ends up getting a lot more sun (it is typically up at anchor, motoring, or anytime we are away from the dock) and it hasn't shown much mildew. Its also a lot smaller, so has a better opportunity to dry. I don't think the salt has anything to do with it, I left the lakes in 2010 and have been in salt since. You will get to watch everything on the boat rust though :(.

Even though they say not to, if it was that or a new sail I'd try washing it with bleach. If you rinse it off pretty quick it can't do that much damage? I've been tempted to try, but never been anyplace with a space large enough to lay the sail out. 

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2 hours ago, DDW said:

It's actually much easier to put racers into a single box. Racers are interested in only 3 things:

1) Upwind speed.

2) Upwind speed.

3) Upwind speed.

To them the difference in a new 3Dl sail and a 2 year old one might be two tenths of a knot, and this is everything in a hotly contested class, a virtually unbeatable advantage.

Cruisers on the other hand fall into a number of boxes:

1) Cottage on the water harbor queen.

2) Daysailer

3) Weekender

4) 3 weeks a year voyager

5) 5 months a year commuter cruiser

6) Full time long distance cruiser

And probably many more. The first 3 encompass probably 90% of the "cruiser" market. The daysailer and weekender probably care about upwind speed more than the others, after all they are returning from whence they came and one of those legs is likely upwind. Also you are doing it more for the sailing and less for the voyaging. The longer term cruisers are going to wait for favorable wind, or choose a destination in a favorable direction. To them, two tenths of a knot is round off error. I'm in the #5 category, In the last eight years I have put about 13,000 miles on the log. I averaged about 6.5 knots. That took 2000 hours (nearly 1000 of that was motoring because there was no wind, but let's ignore that). If I could get  two tenths of a knot extra speed upwind, and spent half my miles upwind, I'd average 6.6 knots. In 8 years I'd have saved 30 hours, 3.7 per year (about half that, if we consider motoring). If you are 30 hours late at the end of a race, the committee boat has already gone home and your finish will not even be scored. 30 hours late at the end of a weekend and you missed work on Monday. But 30 hours late on an 8 year cruise? I wouldn't even notice, if I did I would begrudge the thing ending 30 hours early. But $25,000 for new sails? THAT, I am going to notice. 

DDW,

I'm jealous and I love your boat!  And I agree that if your a 5 or a 6 on your cruiser scale, the 30 hours aren't really even measurable...

I'm a number 3 on the racer scale and a 1, 2, 3, and 4 on the cruiser scale all at the same time.  I'm the guy who loves a good racer cruiser and loves to do each.  But my racing ambitions are modest (care more about doing it with friends then winning at all costs) and I am limited in budget (ultimately who isn't?) as well as storage space.  I can rationalize a delivery/cruising genny, but the main has to do double duty...as does the blade jib and spinnaker.  So I find the idea of a dacron 3DI sail appealing.  Assuming, of course that they perform reasonably close to the promises...as my Radian main did...but I also realize that sail doesn't answer the requirements of folks at other ends of the racing or cruising spectrum...just like I don't believe any one boat can answer the requirements of both ends of the spectrum.  A racer cruiser doesn't have the storage/tankage a cruiser needs, and drags a bunch of furniture around the race course...

 

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I love DDW's boat too. I just wish I could put a hull under it. I would really like to get it out with a boat I know well , say like a Valiant 42 and go head to head. I would want to jump boats and sail them both. OK, I don;t "jump boats" anymore. There was a day. I would love to see how that boat performed pushed upwind. I am ready to be impressed.

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3 hours ago, Bryanjb said:

I'll be quite interested in seeing how the mildew on the North radial Spectra mainsail does in the Caribbean next year, I'm hoping the sun and oxidation of the salt will greatly reduce it? Kind of hate to throw away a $30,000 main for some mildew, but if it doesn't clear it up we'll be ringing up the sailmaker.  It won't be Spectra with a taffeta I can guarantee that.

I had great success with this one winter:

http://www.vacuwash.com/

Sails (North spectra laminates) came back from them clean. But by the end of the season the mildew was back.

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I love DDW's boat too. I just wish I could put a hull under it. I would really like to get it out with a boat I know well , say like a Valiant 42 and go head to head. I would want to jump boats and sail them both. OK, I don;t "jump boats" anymore. There was a day. I would love to see how that boat performed pushed upwind. I am ready to be impressed.

Let's organize it! We have sailed by the Valiants we have come across, but it's always difficult to know how hard they are trying. At one point I tried to get Estarzinger to play - because his boat was remarkably similar to mine in specs - but it didn't work out. In the miles I have put in, there have been very few opportunities to really test it. The conclusion I have come to so far is, off the wind there is no contest until the colored sails come out, then it's just who has the biggest. Upwind, I'm not sure. Maybe when Carbon Cutter #1 is launched? You'll need a photo boat...

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5 hours ago, Crash said:

DDW,

I'm jealous and I love your boat!  And I agree that if your a 5 or a 6 on your cruiser scale, the 30 hours aren't really even measurable...

I'm a number 3 on the racer scale and a 1, 2, 3, and 4 on the cruiser scale all at the same time.  I'm the guy who loves a good racer cruiser and loves to do each.  But my racing ambitions are modest (care more about doing it with friends then winning at all costs) and I am limited in budget (ultimately who isn't?) as well as storage space.  I can rationalize a delivery/cruising genny, but the main has to do double duty...as does the blade jib and spinnaker.  So I find the idea of a dacron 3DI sail appealing.  Assuming, of course that they perform reasonably close to the promises...as my Radian main did...but I also realize that sail doesn't answer the requirements of folks at other ends of the racing or cruising spectrum...just like I don't believe any one boat can answer the requirements of both ends of the spectrum.  A racer cruiser doesn't have the storage/tankage a cruiser needs, and drags a bunch of furniture around the race course...

 

We're a 3, maybe a 2.5 on the racing and 1, 2, 3, 4 on the cruising scale. We'll see here in just 3 weeks how the 3di Nordac fits for our needs :)

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I suspect they will be good for you - I did a couple 'beta purchases' and they all worked out well. It is good tech, and North tends to look after those sails really well.

But do you have a  Delorean (time machine)? Hop in fire up the anti-mater fluxes (or whatever it was) and tell us - what we really want to know is what they will look like in 5 years :) 

By the way, the Hawaii loft guys are pretty cool. I had an mainsail emergency flown in there (after a 3dl let go) and they handled it quite well ( . . . . expect getting the spreader patches a little off, which I fixed myself at sea).

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Can't quite do the time machine thing, no Delorean or hot tub. But I do plan on sailing the snot out of it this summer ☺

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I had a conversation with a North rep last night.  He said the 3Di Nordac is about the same price as the Radian--and the quotes did not make me vomit.  He did say, however, that the main for my 40' is the upper size limit for the 3Di because of weight issues--especially if I opt for three reef points.  I didn't fully follow why the 3Di would be heavier as I was busy running sheets etc. shortly before our start time.  I'll follow up today.

He seemed genuinely excited about the 3Di based on test sails he placed on local boats.  I need to learn more and make a decision ASAP.

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Whisper,

Does he mean that 3Di is heavier than crosscut dacron?  Or because because North believes for a 40' boat, the main should weigh less than some given amount, so they wouldn't recommend any Dacron product?  Or that at some point the adhesives at the top of the sail cannot "hold" up the weight of the rest of the sail? (which makes no sense really)

I suspect its number 2, so they can try to steer folks perceived to have more money into a higher tech (more expensive) product...

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15 minutes ago, Crash said:

Whisper,

Does he mean that 3Di is heavier than crosscut dacron?  Or because because North believes for a 40' boat, the main should weigh less than some given amount, so they wouldn't recommend any Dacron product?  Or that at some point the adhesives at the top of the sail cannot "hold" up the weight of the rest of the sail? (which makes no sense really)

I suspect its number 2, so they can try to steer folks perceived to have more money into a higher tech (more expensive) product...

Good questions.

I had to stop listening since the race was about to start and we were not yet prepared.  He was crewing on a competing boat and they were ready to go.  I was joking later that distracting me was part of their race strategy.  I think we beat them.

I'll learn more today.  The rep seems like a great guy and our local friends think very highly of him.  He'll get my business, but first I need to learn more about sail tech.

 

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When we originally talked to them about 8 months ago,  I think they said they thought the 3di nordac would work best for boats up to like 34'-36'. I'm remember asking why and I can't remember what they said. We are 26' so I guess it was info I didn't retain. 

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On 2.6.2017 at 9:44 PM, ordkhntr said:

Here's some more propaganda.

OK, it's marketing, but how can anyone claim reliability after a two week sail?

Quote

After two weeks of sailing with family, friends and other North Sails cruising experts, a final theme came to mind: familiarity and reliability. As you use your equipment, you gain confidence. It did not take long to develop confidence in these sails. Seeing the stability of the sail shape while pounding through waves in the open ocean was a testament to the engineering behind 3Di NORDAC, and the complete transformation of cruising sails on the market today.

New dacron sails usually still look shiny after two weeks as well. :-) Have a look at those sails after 10.000 miles...

Paul

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1 hour ago, toolbar said:

OK, it's marketing, but how can anyone claim reliability after a two week sail?

New dacron sails usually still look shiny after two weeks as well. :-) Have a look at those sails after 10.000 miles...

Paul

You can clean Dacron sails.

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Oh please!  Of course it's marketing.  What do you expect?  North is in the business of trying to sell sails.  Why is it in the sailing industry, we dislike, distrust, the few companies that actually can effectively market their product?  (J Boats and North come to mind here).  GM markets its cars, so does Porsche, Audi, Ford etc.  Do you believe every word of everything they are trying to sell you?

 

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Oh please!  Of course it's marketing.  What do you expect?  North is in the business of trying to sell sails.  Why is it in the sailing industry, we dislike, distrust, the few companies that actually can effectively market their product?  (J Boats and North come to mind here).

When marketing includes misleading or dishonest claims, then I distrust the company -- whatever line of business it is in.

Anyone who continues to trust those who make dishonest or misleading claims should not be allowed out of the house with money in their pocket.

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The sad thing is that it probably is a decent product and they dont need to throw in all the disinformation (and the one bald lie) . . . but perhaps the Russians have hacked their marketing lol.

The one thing I learned from the piece was the claim of equal weight to a radial woven sail. This is the first I had heard where they have ended up on weight targets for this product. That would seem to mean there is rather less actual dacron in a 3di than in a woven radial sail.  Woven sail do have some filler, but much less by weight than glue in 3di, so the difference (I think) must be made up in less dacron.  'Load pathing' will definitely help, but radian/radial cut sails have fibers aligned with primary loads also. So it will be interesting to see how the less fibers/more glue choice works out.

I will give them some credit for putting test sails to work on a couple charter boats - that is a good idea, those probably get flogged quite a bit, and hopefully they will learn good stuff from it . . . I don't expect we will hear about any problems/failure they encounter.

 

 

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Well, we just picked up the new  genoa for our Ranger 26. 142% 3di Nordac. Should have it out on the water most likely next weekend. Snapped a few pics while it was out on the shop floor.  It is super light!  The fact that the old dacron sail that it is replacing is so blown out and the fact that this is my first new sail will make it hard to say how it compares to other sails. To be honest, a painters drop cloth would probably be better than the sail we had. 

Price was less than a radial dacron and close to a cross cut. We just got prices on a new main with the 20% off deal they have for July and August orders right now and the 3di nordac was way more than a cross cut. 

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Edited by ordkhntr
added info

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At last,  some real world experience. 

Please report back once you start using the sail. 

Thanks! 

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That looks like a great sail. I've always loved the way North does the roller reefing rope.

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sorry for taking so long to get back here, 

Anyway, I love it. Its a 142% on our Ranger 26. It's really light compared to our old 125%, the new one weights just under 24 pounds. The old dacron was right around 26-28 pounds (cant remember exactly). It was a Sobstad. Keep in mind, this is the first new sail I have ever bought. Its really really stiff. When the wind is really light and we botch a tack it can be tough to get to the other side of the boat. 

We have been out probably 8 to 10 times with it. 

I don't know if I can give any real objective analysis of performance based on two things. First the old sail was completely blown out. Second, we have spent the last year fixing the boat up including a new  faired bottom and new genoa cars and tracks. We're still figuring out a lot of it.  We still have the same crappy mainsail (that's next on the list). That being said, performance has been great! In little to no wind we just ghost by folks. In winds above 15 kts  it holds its shape perfectly. It doesn't blow much harder than that on our lake. It trims different than the old sail, not sure how to explain it except its just different. 

I'll try and get some "action" photos this weekend. We are having a big raft up for the eclipse :)

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Cool. 8 - 10 uses is kind of a limited sample but I appreciate you providing any data.

I'm pretty darn curious about ordering one of these to replace my old main. I wish we had more information on durability, but the product simply hasn't been out there long enough to gather that information.

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I got a good proposal from North for 3Di NORDAC. Price is about a third more than Hyde Sails Direct cross cut dacron, about the same as Hyde Sails Direct radial dacron sails, about a third less than Hyde Sails Direct radial cut Dyneema sails.

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I've been watching this thread since it's inception and have been sworn to silence but have been given permission by North Sails to post... I'll explain.  

I am a long time North Sails customer and over the years purchased many sails for my previous boat (J/30) and in 2016 a full suite of One Design sails for my J/109.  I previously purchased sails from Quantum and Hood and have no negative comments on either.  My experience with North Sails has been positive for purchase of sails that meet my need - predominantly beer can racing, some one design racing and cruising.  The loft service has been outstanding and North Sails has been very supportive as a sponsor for multiple sailing events I have raced in.  North Sails has worked closely with many J/109 owners to invest in the development of class sails.  The bottom line - we all benefit when the sail makers work with owners and classes to develop and test products we boat owners can use. 

I was asked by North Sails to test one of their new 3Di NORDAC sails on my J/109 in August 2016.  Below is my report after one hundred hours of use on a 3Di NORDAC test jib I was asked to evaluate.

 

I have just reached 100 sailing hours on the 3Di NORDAC test jib.  This is one of three jibs built by North Sails for three J/109 owners.  Each test jib was fabricated using slightly different material compositions to evaluate wear and performance.  All 3 sails made for the J/109 were cut as a 145% LP sail that could be used for PHRF racing and cruising.  A usage log is attached at the end showing dates used, wind range and elapsed time.

The sail was received in early October 2016 and used 21.5 hours before the boat was stored for the winter at the end of October.  It was primarily used for club racing and deliveries.  The sail was roller furled and when not used was flaked, stored in a 3/4 long zipper bag, then rolled.  Over the winter the sail was stored at the North Sails loft where comparison pictures were taken with the other test jibs on aging and mildew resistance.  Cosmetically the test sail had no mildew on the NORDAC but did have some small black specs on the cloth adhesive stanchion patches.  There were some minor cosmetic marks evident where the sail was in contact with the bow pulpit and by the spreaders from when the main was let out going downwind.  This is not unlike any of the other sails used on the boat.  The sail replaced an old “well used” 3Di genoa (145%) used for beer can racing.  Immediately the upwind performance improvement of the new sail was apparent.  The pointing and upwind speed was evident as shown by a number of 1st place finishes where previously the boat had been finishing mid fleet.

The sail was used again starting in June 2017 where it performed well.  North Sails took draft line pictures to show the aging at various times with one photo attached.  Overall the 3Di NORDAC sail has performed very well sailing and has demonstrated aging characteristics better than plain woven Dacron.  It has been combined on the J/109 with a 2011 North 3dl Main and a 2016 North 3Di Raw Main.  

Based on the testing, I would purchase a 3Di NORDAC sail.  I am replacing the 2011 North 3dl Main with a recently purchased 2017 North 3Di Race main which will have slugs and will be used as my every day sail.  The performance and longevity of the 3Di products is well worth the investment.  My personal preference is the black “Race” and “Raw” materials.

Total Hours =
100    
Date Time Used (Hours) Low Wind High Wind
10/2/2016 4 6 10
10/8/2016 6.5 4 12
10/10/2016 1.5 6 17
10/15/2016 4.5 0 5
10/18/2016 1.5 6 8
10/19/2016 1.5 6 8
11/10/2016 1 5 8
11/23/2016 1 8 14
6/9/2017 5 6 17
6/10/2017 10 4 20
6/27/2017 2 7 15
7/8/2017 5 5 18
7/18/2017 3 5 14
7/25/2017 3 7 14
7/26/2017 2 8 12
7/26/2017 2.5 7 15
7/26/2017 3 4 11
7/28-29/2017 16 2 15
8/1/2017 3 7 14
8/5/2017 5 10 20
8/7/2017 5 7 11
8/19/2017 8 2 15
8/26/2017 4 2 14
8/29/2017 2 5 12

test-jib-picture.png

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