zillafreak

Live Racing Thread

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8 minutes ago, generative.design said:

The main reason I am hoping for less wind is because these boats are so much more maneuverable in, say, 10-15 kts. Above that, match racing is basically out of the window as the teams are nursing their rocket ships around the course..

Agree except PB allowing team NZ to be hooked at the start by B AR. So far all NZ's losses were not from lack of design or boat speed. 

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5 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

1) Everybody agreed these wind limits, changing now would disadvantage those prepared for it.

2) One design is not concerned by that, foils and parts of the wing could be customized

3) TJ did very well, Ben too was pretty impressive

 

 

Yep I was thinking SBJ and BAR handled it well. It only seemed like NZ had control issues on the first dw leg of the first race. They almost looked bow up like something was out of wack. There is an onboard video of the PP. It looked like the foil AOA was erratic making the foil stall then nose dive. The whole fiasco started with the hook. ART had issues more than the rest. NO commented about hydro issues.  It looked like the wing got stuck on the wrong tack once. The boat was doing strange things at times.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

1) Everybody agreed these wind limits, changing now would disadvantage those prepared for it.

2) One design is not concerned by that, foils and parts of the wing could be customized

3) TJ did very well, Ben too was pretty impressive

 

 

+1

The truth may not suit us ETNZ fans right now, but it is still the truth.

I think the rules are a dogs breakfast and so too are the boat specification (especially the wing design requirements), but they are the fucking rules.

I have complained bitterly along with many others about the constant (and quite frankly fucking disgraceful) rule changes, I am NOT about to complain about a rule that has (for the most part) remained unchanged.

Don't like it? Get it changed (if you can).

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

1) Everybody agreed these wind limits, changing now would disadvantage those prepared for it.

2) One design is not concerned by that, foils and parts of the wing could be customized

3) TJ did very well, Ben too was pretty impressive

 

 

Ben was impressive?

Must have missed that. 

He was overtaken in race one, and won race 2 only because the other boat had gear breakage

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4 hours ago, Monkey said:

I bet even Grumpy would play nice if the teams got together to discuss lower limits. Every team was taking a beating out there today. 

I think BAR shudda had to complete the race laps to count as a win 

they could have been taken out by a gust or the wind cudda died and then they might not have finished in time

If it's getting too dangerous to be out there it's too dangerous - if not do yer laps

If one boat crashes and the other doesn't want to be out there any longer,  NO WIN = Race Abandoned  

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If the wind data in the window before the race shows that the the rules were contravened, then on IM's head be it.

He will have fucked up not calling it off.

If they weren't...rock on!

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7 hours ago, ezyb said:

Looks like LRBARs wake may have thrown them a little higher than expected 

No, that is displacement sailing thinking.  Hydrofoils produce tiny down-wash compared to large vertical movements inside waves, otherwise they would not be able to sail so fast.

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57 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

Ben was impressive?

Must have missed that. 

He was overtaken in race one, and won race 2 only because the other boat had gear breakage

Compared to where he is coming from.

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53 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

Ben was impressive?

Must have missed that. 

He was overtaken in race one, and won race 2 only because the other boat had gear breakage

He crushed AR in the start and was in good control of the race before AR began to come unglued . 

They actually looked fairly stable out there in comparison to the others and not bad for the first time in a pretty good breeze. 

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

+1

The truth may not suit us ETNZ fans right now, but it is still the truth.

I think the rules are a dogs breakfast and so too are the boat specification (especially the wing design requirements), but they are the fucking rules.

I have complained bitterly along with many others about the constant (and quite frankly fucking disgraceful) rule changes, I am NOT about to complain about a rule that has (for the most part) remained unchanged.

Don't like it? Get it changed (if you can).

I keep the same line that TNZ had during last AC

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2 minutes ago, maxmini said:

He crushed AR in the start and was in good control of the race before AR began to come unglued . 

They actually looked fairly stable out there in comparison to the others and not bad for the first time in a pretty good breeze. 

Ben? He faced off against ETNZ NOT AR.

Are you talking about Dean?

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1 hour ago, us772 said:

Yep I was thinking SBJ and BAR handled it well. It only seemed like NZ had control issues on the first dw leg of the first race. They almost looked bow up like something was out of wack. There is an onboard video of the PP. It looked like the foil AOA was erratic making the foil stall then nose dive. The whole fiasco started with the hook. ART had issues more than the rest. NO commented about hydro issues.  It looked like the wing got stuck on the wrong tack once. The boat was doing strange things at times.

IMO, PB beared away with the obvious consequence of getting really high, and then the consequence, falling down with probably a foil that had been corrected too late and sent them down. It was basically a PB mistake. Consequence of a hook in strong wind ?

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

IMO, PB beared away with the obvious consequence of getting really high, and then the consequence, falling down with probably a foil that had been corrected too late and sent them down. It was basically a PB mistake. Consequence of a hook in strong wind ?

Consequence of a very late campaign that missed too many days of sailing, and were probably scared of sailing in strong winds due to single boat rule and previous damage.  But they are still probably close to even odds to win the AC

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7 minutes ago, Foyle said:

Consequence of a very late campaign that missed too many days of sailing, and were probably scared of sailing in strong winds due to single boat rule and previous damage.  But they are still probably close to even odds to win the AC

Agreed with everything excepted that they could have pushed their T boat at the limit of the envelope.

 

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23 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I keep the same line that TNZ had during last AC

Same line? You mean dont change the fucking rules?

If so, then me too unless with unanimous consent.

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4 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Same line? You mean dont change the fucking rules?

If so, then me too unless with unanimous consent.

AC50 rule = unanymous consent of competitors,

Protocol = GGYC and challenger forum = majority.

The italians missed it.

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34 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Ben? He faced off against ETNZ NOT AR.

Are you talking about Dean?

Correct  I got the middle of the pack lads mixed

Dean . I think in the second race JPN looked about as good as they have all regatta.

Ben has had better days. 

 

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Just now, maxmini said:

Dean . I thank in the second race JPN looked about as good as they have all regatta.

Ben has had better days. 

 

Ok, cos Barny was putting shit on Ben not Dean.

Yep, Japan looked really solid and should book themselves a place in the finals next race day.

Especially since that will likely be Thursday (BDA time) when they are expecting winds towards the bottom end where Artemis are particularly vulnerable.

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2 hours ago, maxmini said:

Correct  I got the middle of the pack lads mixed

Dean . I think in the second race JPN looked about as good as they have all regatta.

Ben has had better days. 

 

i think that Nathan outridge had a very very bad day today. 

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7 minutes ago, Qman said:

i think that Nathan outridge had a very very bad day today. 

I think it is more the boat than him specifically. 

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I feel I need to explain myself...I don't want to come across as a troll, I don't want to be a troll, and don't need to be a troll. What I would like to say is, last time there was a whole lot of stuff said regarding the ETNZ design. Last time ETNZ designed a boat according to the design brief specified. A boat which was capable of sailing a wind range from 5 knots to 33 knots. It was clear that ETNZ had done just that, and had paid the price in performance. After 2013, a lot of people commented "Well that was their fault for designing a boat to the rules, they should have designed to the conditions, not the rules, because rules can change, conditions do not" Now that it is becoming increasingly clear that ETNZ are somewhat optimised for lighter conditions, the talk is, "well the rules did state they should be able to sail in 24 knots, so they should be able to sail in 24 knots" So should they design to the rules, or the conditions? Obviousy ETNZ has a sweet spot in the light conditions, as was evident the other day, so logic dictates they have optimised for typical Bermuda conditions, which these conditions are not. There was a line from a local stating "Its never normally like this in Bermuda". What I will rigorously continue questioning, is the hypocrisy and inconsistency of those Oracle fans who thought it wise to lower the wind limit in San Francisco, yet conversely think it wise to effectively raise it in Bermuda even though the boats are a lot quicker and more on the edge, because that's what the original "agreed upon" rules state. You can say Peter Burling made mistakes all you want, but the fact of the matter is, its like driving a car "Drive to the conditions" and thats what Burling was attempting to do. Even in F1, races are called off in treacherous conditions, and its clear, and undeniable, and evident that todays conditions were treacherous. You can say "well the other three got through it without landing on their ass" did they? Every team suffered damage, be it minor or major. I can drive my car on an icy road, but just because I can, doesn't mean I should, or that the conditions aren't treacherous. They may have been able to sail in those conditions, but that doesn't mean they should, or that the conditions weren't treacherous. Those guys weren't racing today, they were surviving. It may have been "under the limit, or"marginal", but that does not mean the limit is a good one, or a wise one. Anyway, it looks as if this issue isn't going away, and that Iain Murray may have to defend himself in the coming days. 

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1 minute ago, sclarke said:

By the way, I'm confident that ETNZ will beat BAR and Artemis and go through to the Cup. 

Artemis? I think you mean TJ

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Just now, Barnyb said:

Artemis? I think you mean TJ

Maybe. I really think Artemis will over power Japan and go through to face ETNZ. 

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13 minutes ago, sclarke said:

By the way, I'm confident that ETNZ will beat BAR and Artemis and go through to the Cup. 

Well duh! :D

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11 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Maybe. I really think Artemis will over power Japan and go through to face ETNZ. 

Tell em they're dreaming!

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Just now, jaysper said:

Tell em they're dreaming!

Artemis seem to excel when their backs are against the wall, where Dean, well, no disrespect at all to Dean, but history says Dean has a tendency to capitulate in high pressure situations, where Outteridge seems to thrive on that same pressure and it brings the best out in him. I think, and I hope Artemis go through. It would be a great final, another clash of the old rivals Outteridge and Burling. 

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12 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Artemis seem to excel when their backs are against the wall, where Dean, well, no disrespect at all to Dean, but history says Dean has a tendency to capitulate in high pressure situations, where Outteridge seems to thrive on that same pressure and it brings the best out in him. I think, and I hope Artemis go through. It would be a great final, another clash of the old rivals Outteridge and Burling. 

I disagree (respectfully)

Dean has shown over the last few days that he is on top of it. They have a good boat, good speed, their tactics have been good, he was mature and did really well today, not pushing too hard but surviving. I have a real question over their hydro capacity which after 9 legs this morning was empty. Reasonable assumption that OR has similar hydro (but I am sure they are trying to correct). DB was good in the presser today not getting too excited. I think they have more to come.

ART: so far, a poor regatta, culminating today when they looked like me trying a hobie off Taka for the first time at 13 years age. IP really lost it today and should be fined or severally spoken to. What about the Dalton clause of bringing the cup into disrepute.

ART supposedly had a boat spec'd for the conditions today and yesterday and yet have been off the pace compared to TJ. Their boat is falling apart and their manoeuvres have been poor (this should be the height of sailing skills)

Some of the frustration coming out today is maybe because they are realising they are not going any further in this regatta.

ART are toast. Setting up a nice sail off between DB and his old team TNZ. 

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1 minute ago, Barnyb said:

I disagree (respectfully)

Dean has shown over the last few days that he is on top of it. They have a good boat, good speed, their tactics have been good, he was mature and did really well today, not pushing too hard but surviving. I have a real question over their hydro capacity which after 9 legs this morning was empty. Reasonable assumption that OR has similar hydro (but I am sure they are trying to correct). DB was good in the presser today not getting too excited. I think they have more to come.

ART: so far, a poor regatta, culminating today when they looked like me trying a hobie off Taka for the first time at 13 years age. IP really lost it today and should be fined or severally spoken to. What about the Dalton clause of bringing the cup into disrepute.

ART supposedly had a boat spec'd for the conditions today and yesterday and yet have been off the pace compared to TJ. Their boat is falling apart and their manoeuvres have been poor (this should be the height of sailing skills)

Some of the frustration coming out today is maybe because they are realising they are not going any further in this regatta.

ART are toast. Setting up a nice sail off between DB and his old team TNZ. 

Yep, I can't disagree with a lot of that, however it seems to be a trend with Artemis, they seem to have almost a disastrous start to most, if not all of their campaigns, but still end up at the top. They were counted out in the ACWS and came storming back to win the last two regattas (I think it was the last two) the qualifiers proved to be the same thing, they started badly, beaten by pretty much everyone including the French, but then took ETNZ to the limit twice, and then went 2-0 against both Team Japan and Oracle. If the trend continues, as I'm thinking it might, I think Artemis will come storming back to beat Japan. Although a Challenger final with ETNZ's past versus ETNZ's future is also a mouth watering prospect.

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49 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Artemis seem to excel when their backs are against the wall, where Dean, well, no disrespect at all to Dean, but history says Dean has a tendency to capitulate in high pressure situations, where Outteridge seems to thrive on that same pressure and it brings the best out in him. I think, and I hope Artemis go through. It would be a great final, another clash of the old rivals Outteridge and Burling. 

Nah. Artemis have just looked like a comedy of errors so far in this regatta. If you can't rely on them to fuck the tactics, then their boat is a sure thing. 

Japan is in the exact same situation as etnz. Racing should be cancelled tomorrow meaning only 3 races left to sail on thursday  (BDA time) in light airs. With the current score being 3-1, both etnz and Japan can advance by winning a single race in conditions that their opponents have looked pretty weak in. Barring more breakages  (holds breath), this should be an easy task for both etnz and Japan. 

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3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Nah. Artemis have just looked like a comedy of errors so far in this regatta. If you can't rely on them to fuck the tactics, then their boat is a sure thing. 

Japan is in the exact same situation as etnz. Racing should be cancelled tomorrow meaning only 3 races left to sail on thursday  (BDA time) in light airs. With the current score being 3-1, both etnz and Japan can advance by winning a single race in conditions that their opponents have looked pretty weak in. Barring more breakages  (holds breath), this should be an easy task for both etnz and Japan. 

I'll be interested to see what ETNZ looks like out of the shed when they come out. If they come back after a fairly catastrophic event, they will be stronger from the experience itself. Sean Regan and his boys are the best in the business, so no doubt that boat will come out looking brand new in no time. 

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2 minutes ago, sclarke said:

I'll be interested to see what ETNZ looks like out of the shed when they come out. If they come back after a fairly catastrophic event, they will be stronger from the experience itself. Sean Regan and his boys are the best in the business, so no doubt that boat will come out looking brand new in no time. 

Aside from lacking some sponsors logos I don't expect to see a difference. The people on the other hand will have bags under their eyes big enough to pack for a months vacation. 

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14 minutes ago, sclarke said:

I'll be interested to see what ETNZ looks like out of the shed when they come out. If they come back after a fairly catastrophic event, they will be stronger from the experience itself. Sean Regan and his boys are the best in the business, so no doubt that boat will come out looking brand new in no time. 

chance to install some of the development gear?

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13 hours ago, WetHog said:

Have they even tested these boats at the upper wind limit to ensure they could handle it?

Today suggests they haven't and that is unacceptable.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Big Sir Ben on the BT interview said as much.  Something like "we haven't even sailed these boats in this wind strength before..."

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I wouldn't want to call it at this point. I'm surprised by how Artemis has struggled, less surprised by how BAR has finally started showing some form, was impressed with ETNZ in very strong wind (pre crash) - those turbine blade style foils are very interesting -  and really impressed with the way Barker got down to business today.

But ETNZ super strong if they get their boat back together in time.

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2 minutes ago, Robsi524 said:

chance to install some of the development gear?

I doubt it.

They are pretty comfortable in the light air to be expected Thursday BDA time.

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59 minutes ago, sclarke said:

I'll be interested to see what ETNZ looks like out of the shed when they come out. If they come back after a fairly catastrophic event, they will be stronger from the experience itself. Sean Regan and his boys are the best in the business, so no doubt that boat will come out looking brand new in no time. 

if they get the extra day to work they should be sweet, could be a bit light on tomorrow.  

 

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

I feel I need to explain myself...I don't want to come across as a troll, I don't want to be a troll, and don't need to be a troll. What I would like to say is, last time there was a whole lot of stuff said regarding the ETNZ design. Last time ETNZ designed a boat according to the design brief specified. A boat which was capable of sailing a wind range from 5 knots to 33 knots. It was clear that ETNZ had done just that, and had paid the price in performance. After 2013, a lot of people commented "Well that was their fault for designing a boat to the rules, they should have designed to the conditions, not the rules, because rules can change, conditions do not" Now that it is becoming increasingly clear that ETNZ are somewhat optimised for lighter conditions, the talk is, "well the rules did state they should be able to sail in 24 knots, so they should be able to sail in 24 knots" So should they design to the rules, or the conditions? Obviousy ETNZ has a sweet spot in the light conditions, as was evident the other day, so logic dictates they have optimised for typical Bermuda conditions, which these conditions are not. There was a line from a local stating "Its never normally like this in Bermuda". What I will rigorously continue questioning, is the hypocrisy and inconsistency of those Oracle fans who thought it wise to lower the wind limit in San Francisco, yet conversely think it wise to effectively raise it in Bermuda even though the boats are a lot quicker and more on the edge, because that's what the original "agreed upon" rules state. You can say Peter Burling made mistakes all you want, but the fact of the matter is, its like driving a car "Drive to the conditions" and thats what Burling was attempting to do. Even in F1, races are called off in treacherous conditions, and its clear, and undeniable, and evident that todays conditions were treacherous. You can say "well the other three got through it without landing on their ass" did they? Every team suffered damage, be it minor or major. I can drive my car on an icy road, but just because I can, doesn't mean I should, or that the conditions aren't treacherous. They may have been able to sail in those conditions, but that doesn't mean they should, or that the conditions weren't treacherous. Those guys weren't racing today, they were surviving. It may have been "under the limit, or"marginal", but that does not mean the limit is a good one, or a wise one. Anyway, it looks as if this issue isn't going away, and that Iain Murray may have to defend himself in the coming days. 

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2017/06/america-s-cup-2017-blame-for-team-new-zealand-mishap-lies-with-race-director-peter-lester.html

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Isn't Lester contradicting himself when he saying it was too dangerous and then saying the damage was only superficial.  He cant have it both ways.  He really plays up to the NZ audience and gets them baying.

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1 minute ago, trt131 said:

Isn't Lester contradicting himself when he saying it was too dangerous and then saying the damage was only superficial.  He cant have it both ways.  He really plays up to the NZ audience and gets them baying.

Eh? whatevs trevs!

You can have a fatal accident with minimal damage to boat. Lester was talking about risk of danger to sailors, even from simple things like faring falling off.

Sort it out mate...

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1 minute ago, trt131 said:

Isn't Lester contradicting himself when he saying it was too dangerous and then saying the damage was only superficial.  He cant have it both ways.  He really plays up to the NZ audience and gets them baying.

I agree you can't have it all ways.  What are your views on the combination of these boats and the windspeeds out there, given the evidence of the last days racing for all teams?

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Just now, trt131 said:

Isn't Lester contradicting himself when he saying it was too dangerous and then saying the damage was only superficial.  He cant have it both ways.  He really plays up to the NZ audience and gets them baying.

No, he is saying it was dangerous, but Team NZ was lucky to get away with superficial damage. And if it happens again, they or others may not be that lucky next time.

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2 minutes ago, aucklander said:

I agree you can't have it all ways.  What are your views on the combination of these boats and the windspeeds out there, given the evidence of the last days racing for all teams?

Danger refers to sailors, damage refers to boat. One can be major whilst the other minor. 

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This will certainly put the pressure on Iain Murray tomorrow to think about whether to race or not. I suspect he may think best to give it away if the wind strength is around what we had today. Probably best for all involved I would say.

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I hope IM and co don't make a knee jerk reaction and lower wind limit, like san fran. no one wants to see a repeat of the Artemis tragedy, but safety measures have came along way in the result of that! and the boats/wing are designed to cope with it now(no more wings snapping in half when capsized).

It would be good for the fairness of the etnz-lrbar match if tnz had to forefeit the 2 races today to bring it to 3-3.

race1: LRBAR -DSQ

race2: LRBAR -DSQ

race3: ETNZ beat LRBAR due to better boat handling and better hydraulics

race4: LRBAR beat ETNZ due to better boat handling(i.e didnt piss it in on start!)

race5: ETNZ -DSQ

race6: ETNZ -DSQ

if this was to happen then it would go into Thursday with good conditions and 2 100% boats. 

ETNZ would prob win both on Thursday and progress as they have the best all round package, they would go through having beaten the opposition instead of getting 2 gimme's through boat failure.

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3 hours ago, sclarke said:

I feel I need to explain myself... BLAH BLAH BLAH Those guys weren't racing today, they were surviving. It may have been "under the limit, or"marginal", but that does not mean the limit is a good one, or a wise one. Anyway, it looks as if this issue isn't going away, and that Iain Murray may have to defend himself in the coming days. 

The problem with everything you say is that yesterdays conditions were not treacherous.  They where good sailing conditions and they should race.  SB and ART lost some fairings ripped off.

BAR and ETZN raced.   PB screwed it and dumped the boat as he was Racing. 

 

Nothing wrong and if it had been called off yesterday that would have been wrong.

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Fancy the tough outdoorsy Kiwis getting their knickers in a twist over 20kts of breeze.

Come on lads.  I thought you wrote the book on being a tough guy sailor.

Was it because it rained as well.

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51 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Isn't Lester contradicting himself when he saying it was too dangerous and then saying the damage was only superficial.  He cant have it both ways.  He really plays up to the NZ audience and gets them baying.

I think they need to grow up.  They are at the Americas Cup.  The point is that it has always favoured the defender.  It was more wind than they are used to but you know it was not that dangerous.  It was a mistake by the helm that made it dangerous but it is to late to get Barker back now huh.

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11 minutes ago, DCS said:

I hope IM and co don't make a knee jerk reaction and lower wind limit, like san fran. no one wants to see a repeat of the Artemis tragedy, but safety measures have came along way in the result of that! and the boats/wing are designed to cope with it now(no more wings snapping in half when capsized).

It would be good for the fairness of the etnz-lrbar match if tnz had to forefeit the 2 races today to bring it to 3-3.

race1: LRBAR -DSQ

race2: LRBAR -DSQ

race3: ETNZ beat LRBAR due to better boat handling and better hydraulics

race4: LRBAR beat ETNZ due to better boat handling(i.e didnt piss it in on start!)

race5: ETNZ -DSQ

race6: ETNZ -DSQ

if this was to happen then it would go into Thursday with good conditions and 2 100% boats. 

ETNZ would prob win both on Thursday and progress as they have the best all round package, they would go through having beaten the opposition instead of getting 2 gimme's through boat failure.

i don't follow, how does that make it fairer? 

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2 minutes ago, the cat said:

I think they need to grow up.  They are at the Americas Cup.  The point is that it has always favoured the defender.  It was more wind than they are used to but you know it was not that dangerous.  It was a mistake by the helm that made it dangerous but it is to late to get Barker back now huh.

I think you'll find ETNZ is one of the longest running teams currently still contesting AC in the modern era, and we've had our fair share of experiences, both massive highs and gut wrenching lows over that time whilst other teams have come and gone like a twinkle in the eye.

To that extent we're longer in the tooth and more seasoned than anyone else there, so you'll pardon me if I don't think we're somehow in need of growing up. Have you heard ETNZ themselves complain about today? I'd argue the other teams were more circumspect about it than we were.

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Just now, Qman said:

i don't follow, how does that make it fairer? 

because both teams would have 2 points through the other team not being able to compete. at the moment etnz are 2 up because lrbar wing broke.

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13 minutes ago, the cat said:

Fancy the tough outdoorsy Kiwis getting their knickers in a twist over 20kts of breeze.

Come on lads.  I thought you wrote the book on being a tough guy sailor.

Was it because it rained as well.

the rain was carbon fibre bloke.....you want to stand in a shower of that shit ????

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Just now, schafseckel said:

So, no racing today?

don't think we'll know for 7 and a bit hours really

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What is it that people don't understand, all teams said they ain't sailed in these conditions, and this is the result, pretty sure people on art and jpn were very lucky not to have those damn carbon things hitting them.  

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2 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ It's ALWAYS 'lucky' to not get hit by a damn carbon thing!

LOL 

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9 minutes ago, DCS said:

because both teams would have 2 points through the other team not being able to compete. at the moment etnz are 2 up because lrbar wing broke.

I still don't get it.  thats racing, its not fair to penalise ETNZ because BAR broke something, or vice versa.   There is every likely hood that ETNZ will be ready to race, if they are not then they forfeit 2 points but only IF they aren't ready AND racing is on.   

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Just now, Qman said:

I still don't get it.  thats racing, its not fair to penalise ETNZ because BAR broke something, or vice versa.   There is every likely hood that ETNZ will be ready to race, if they are not then they forfeit 2 points but only IF they aren't ready AND racing is on.   

your right it is racing but if Etnz did have to forfeit the 2 points it would be karma/luck balancing the table.

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34 minutes ago, DCS said:

I hope IM and co don't make a knee jerk reaction and lower wind limit, like san fran. no one wants to see a repeat of the Artemis tragedy, but safety measures have came along way in the result of that! and the boats/wing are designed to cope with it now(no more wings snapping in half when capsized).

It would be good for the fairness of the etnz-lrbar match if tnz had to forefeit the 2 races today to bring it to 3-3.

race1: LRBAR -DSQ

race2: LRBAR -DSQ

race3: ETNZ beat LRBAR due to better boat handling and better hydraulics

race4: LRBAR beat ETNZ due to better boat handling(i.e didnt piss it in on start!)

race5: ETNZ -DSQ

race6: ETNZ -DSQ

if this was to happen then it would go into Thursday with good conditions and 2 100% boats. 

ETNZ would prob win both on Thursday and progress as they have the best all round package, they would go through having beaten the opposition instead of getting 2 gimme's through boat failure.

Every boat out there was pretty badly damaged, not quite sure how you can claim the boats/wing are designed to cope with it now, I would bet every single sailor out there today would pick ETNZ's AC72 over an AC50 in 25 knots+ every day of the week!  That boat actually was designed to sail in those conditions and actually did so on multiple occassions without issue.

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1 minute ago, DCS said:

your right it is racing but if Etnz did have to forfeit the 2 points it would be karma/luck balancing the table.

karma?  WTF? what are you talking about, we all want clean and competitive races but relabiltiy and gear conservation is part of the game.  The scores are the scores they deserve, there is no Karma at play.   If by "luck" ETNZ can't field their boat.  it would be all on for the final day. 

 

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1 minute ago, Boybland said:

Every boat out there was pretty badly damaged, not quite sure how you can claim the boats/wing are designed to cope with it now, I would bet every single sailor out there today would pick ETNZ's AC72 over an AC50 in 25 knots+ every day of the week!  That boat actually was designed to sail in those conditions and actually did so on multiple occassions without issue.

When the bigger boats capsized the front half of the wing would break because of the weight of the platform. this time the they are built stronger with flotation in the top of the wing to stop them buckling. there has been maybe 3-4 capsizes in the ac50's and no wings have folded. its when the wings fold and the platform lands flat on the water and traps crew under, that the unthinkable happens  

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7 minutes ago, Qman said:

karma?  WTF? what are you talking about, we all want clean and competitive races but relabiltiy and gear conservation is part of the game.  The scores are the scores they deserve, there is no Karma at play.   If by "luck" ETNZ can't field their boat.  it would be all on for the final day. 

 

the fact remains that etnz are 2 up because of boat failure, they were lucky that the first race yesterday got pushed back enough that they could swap their broken wing, LRBAR didn't get that luck the previous day. 

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Just now, DCS said:

When the bigger boats capsized the front half of the wing would break because of the weight of the platform. this time the they are built stronger with flotation in the top of the wing to stop them buckling. there has been maybe 3-4 capsizes in the ac50's and no wings have folded. its when the wings fold and the platform lands flat on the water and traps crew under, that the unthinkable happens  

I don't doubt capsizing a bigger boat is worse, this is true for any type of boat, I do think you are less likely to capsize an AC72 (as much as OR managed to and ETNZ tried their level best to). But there is no way using any measure that these AC50's are sufficiently engineered to sail in 25+ without damaging themselves, the crew might be safer simply because there is less boat around to hurt you, but the racing is pretty ridiculous when it reverts to a reality TV survivor style event where the teams are simply trying to hang on and not destroy everything or get stabbed by a flying bit of carbon fibre fairing.

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Just now, DCS said:

the fact remains that etnz are 2 up because of boat failure, they were lucky that the first race yesterday got pushed back enough that they could swap their broken wing, LRBAR didn't get that luck the previous day. 

They did however get a fair amount of luck the day before when racing was cancelled due to lack of wind, even Ben has stated as much, he clearly didn't rate their chances at all in 6 knots, it's just the way things go sometimes.

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Just got back from a nice delivery down tge coast. 

 

Anything happen today?...  ETNZ win again?

 

The " kid" kick bens ass?

The Kiwis boat fly around the course?

 

What happened?

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

Isn't Lester contradicting himself when he saying it was too dangerous and then saying the damage was only superficial.  He cant have it both ways.  He really plays up to the NZ audience and gets them baying.

Baying? You mean bleating right...

anyway, good timing... ETNZ get an extra day for the resin to dry and sticky stuff to bind nicely... she'll be good as new tomorrow.

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5 minutes ago, Auld Mug said:

Just got back from a nice delivery down tge coast. 

 

Anything happen today?...  ETNZ win again?

 

The " kid" kick bens ass?

The Kiwis boat fly around the course?

 

What happened?

Oh it flew alright!

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2 minutes ago, Boybland said:

They did however get a fair amount of luck the day before when racing was cancelled due to lack of wind, even Ben has stated as much, he clearly didn't rate their chances at all in 6 knots, it's just the way things go sometimes.

I would rather LRBAR be 2 down by getting spanked in light airs than through gear failure, but the rules are the rules and im hoping that they dont change them because the young hotshot skiff helms couldn't get their boat round the course and one pissed it in! the wind speed at the time of capsize was 21.5kts, thats not extremely windy. 

plus i seriously think with regards to fairings there should be some sort of test, maybe use a fire hose to blast the boat with water at 60mph and if bits fly off then they're not built strong enough!   

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6 minutes ago, Auld Mug said:

Just got back from a nice delivery down tge coast. 

 

Anything happen today?...  ETNZ win again?

 

The " kid" kick bens ass?

The Kiwis boat fly around the course?

 

What happened?

Not much. Just another day at the AC. 

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10 minutes ago, Auld Mug said:

Just got back from a nice delivery down tge coast. 

 

Anything happen today?...  ETNZ win again?

 

The " kid" kick bens ass?

The Kiwis boat fly around the course?

 

What happened?

Won 1, dropped 1

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Also must comment on how the "Mast/Wing" held up and prevented a complete inversion. (Remembering the tragedy Artimus had in practise 2013) 

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6 hours ago, Barnyb said:

Dean has shown over the last few days that he is on top of it. They have a good boat, good speed, their tactics have been good, he was mature and did really well today, not pushing too hard but surviving.

Agreed. Dean's ability to handle these boats in challenging conditions is outstanding. He seems to have a very soft touch on the helm, very much feeling the boat and reacting quickly but gently to changes. Remember how he managed to keep ETNZ upright in that hairy moment during AC34 when they nearly capsized. Nice work today.

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3 hours ago, the cat said:

The problem with everything you say is that yesterdays conditions were not treacherous.  They where good sailing conditions and they should race.  SB and ART lost some fairings ripped off.

BAR and ETZN raced.   PB screwed it and dumped the boat as he was Racing. 

 

Nothing wrong and if it had been called off yesterday that would have been wrong.

I dunno ... That first mark rounding in the SBJ-AR race was mighty close ... in the presser NO said he bailed out of the rounding to avoid a potential collision. (Although it seems he was using this as an attempted ruse to cover the damage to their control systems, given that a couple of minutes later he opened up and said they had systems issues which reduced their confidence in bearing away.)

But all that aside, as NO pointed out, it was touchy and if SBJ had slowed up any more they would have plowed right on into them. Plus scrubbing penalties was dangerous too.

And what the hell was it with the spectator craft on the course? I was amazed not to hear IP yelling 'wtf Richard get those bastards off the course', what happened that meant the race director failed to keep the course clear?

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3 hours ago, the cat said:

Fancy the tough outdoorsy Kiwis getting their knickers in a twist over 20kts of breeze.

Come on lads.  I thought you wrote the book on being a tough guy sailor.

Was it because it rained as well.

No it was because the conditions made controlling the boats extremely difficult. It must have been exhausting. Swirling puffs of extra breeze, choppy waves, pouring rain and poor visibility. In these conditions, putting the rudder down to avoid a collision (for example) might have worked and might not ... never good to be sailing without confidence you are in control if the shit hits the fan.

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15 hours ago, Barnyb said:

In the presser:

DB: "the guys were flogging themselves senseless"

 

yep, classic.....

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7 minutes ago, ianz said:

No it was because the conditions made controlling the boats extremely difficult. It must have been exhausting. Swirling puffs of extra breeze, choppy waves, pouring rain and poor visibility. In these conditions, putting the rudder down to avoid a collision (for example) might have worked and might not ... never good to be sailing without confidence you are in control if the shit hits the fan.

Yep.  Same for everyone.  That is why they get paid to go and get exhausted.  A lot of us do it just for fun. Man up Kiwis.

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8 minutes ago, the cat said:

Yep.  Same for everyone.  That is why they get paid to go and get exhausted.  A lot of us do it just for fun. Man up Kiwis.

What we do for fun is in smaller slower safer boats with much higher margin for error.

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Just now, ianz said:

What we do for fun is in smaller slower safer boats with much higher margin for error.

Yep.  Hurts the same when you pitchpole a Skiff and get knocked on the head.  No chase boat though.  These are Pros that are paid a massive amount of money to go sailing.  I expect them to get out there and perform.  If they are scared or tired then they are not up to the standard.  It might be dangerous and i don't want anybody hurt but nobody has to sign up to do this.

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50 minutes ago, ianz said:

 

And what the hell was it with the spectator craft on the course? I was amazed not to hear IP yelling 'wtf Richard get those bastards off the course', what happened that meant the race director failed to keep the course clear?

I'm pretty sure the spectator fleet began moving onto the course after the second downwind, thinking it was the more common 7 leg race. Since it was 9 legs the racers came back up wind right at them.  JPN went to the other side of the course and wasn't as affected.  

A bad situation for sure.  

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