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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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1 minute ago, chauch said:

Definitely looks like it.  A new challenge for the AC teams--don't get caught in the jetwash like Maverick and Goose!

+1

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I thought ETNZ were hobby horsing a lot in the first race. Maybe problems with stability in strong wind.

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Lets hope they can get one decent wing from 2 stuffed ones - but the game-boy??

20170606_ac35live_rp4149.jpg

20170606_ac35live_gmr3094.jpg

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Just now, Terrorvision said:

What's the black stuff in the water ahead?

Pieces of the boat.

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4 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

Aside from that Ben got him again in a very simple start set up

I'm guessing they were confident enough they could catch them even I they gave up 2 or 3 lengths at the start.

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Looked like they got high on the foils and the windward rudder lifted out, no grip and off she went

 

there was a shot looking back from BAR that showed it clearly 

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7 minutes ago, chauch said:

Definitely looks like it.  A new challenge for the AC teams--don't get caught in the jetwash like Maverick and Goose!

Flap spins are a Bitch.....

Jus Sayin

 

WL

 

PS- Glad no one was hurt!

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Fuckity shit fuck.

Virtualeye is about 30s ahead of the Skygo feed & can't rewind it pre-start, was looking at that low speed luffing in the corner of my eye thinking thats gonna be severe zone of death danger when they start going for the line.

Then ETNZ shot up to 20kt & I was like 'fuck pitchpole' and it went to 0kt, 'shit it was a pitchcpole' :(

Then saw it on the video.

 

Good that everyone is ok, super lots of work for shore team & hopefully they have the parts.

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7 minutes ago, Terrorvision said:

What's the black stuff in the water ahead?

PB's underwear??

 

WL

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9 minutes ago, ezyb said:

After today's carnage, I wouldn't be surprised if Iain cancels tomorrow's racing tonight given the forecast

Na, what does he care, Oracle pay him and they're not racing tomorrow. Jimmy and the boys can sit in a bar and watch the rest fall apart.

IM probably believes LE will protect him if anyone dies.

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Electronics, fairings, some other bits to replace.

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Anyway that's me outa here tonight. C U tomorrow.

 

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10 minutes ago, Terrorvision said:

What's the black stuff in the water ahead?

Loch ness monster?

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3 minutes ago, laser 173312 said:

Na, what does he care, Oracle pay him and they're not racing tomorrow. Jimmy and the boys can sit in a bar and watch the rest fall apart.

IM probably believes LE will protect him if anyone dies.

 

Worked last time...

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38 minutes ago, generative.design said:

That was yesterday, when they thought swearing wasn't going to be 90% of crew comms :D

vlcsnap-2017-06-06-00h32m16s404.png

Haven't seen this apology screen on NBC (& NBCSN, NBCSN-live) in the US, and I've watched them all, 'cept for piss and booze breaks.  Maybe US programming in general is so profane a few "Fucks", etc. in world class sports is acceptable. 

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Not necessarily THAT much damage.

Provided the main structural elements of the wing are in tact, then all we are talking about is wing skin, jib endplate, fairings, tramp and possibly electronics.

Not saying its nothing, but I would think they would be ok to be back tomorrow, even though the forecast is showing pretty fucking serious winds.

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1 hour ago, nav said:

 

20170606_ac35live_gmr2782.jpg

Here I was thinking this would be the photo of the day...

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8 minutes ago, laser 173312 said:

Na, what does he care, Oracle pay him and they're not racing tomorrow. Jimmy and the boys can sit in a bar and watch the rest fall apart.

IM probably believes LE will protect him if anyone dies.

+1

if oracle was out there, bets the races would have been cancelled.  oracle not in it and nice and dry, let me go destroy themselves.

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See ETNZ thread for the full sequence - can't be arsed fighting the dodgy system to repeat it here as well.

20170606_ac35live_gmr2982.jpg

20170606_ac35live_gmr2986.jpg

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I wonder how many checks are still in the checkbook for Grant?

 

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1 minute ago, Happie Jack said:

Poor bugger (IM) gets shat on for calling things off coz dangerous (AC34), now shat on because some races were near the top end, at the start of the day but were tailing off when the Kiwis tripped on air bubbles deliberatly laid down by big bad barrrr.

Yeah, I agree with this.

In the end however, he is being tarred by the same brush as Orifice who have not been shown to be exemplary in their behaviour.

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24 minutes ago, ezyb said:

After today's carnage, I wouldn't be surprised if Iain cancels tomorrow's racing tonight given the forecast

Nope, Ian's job is to set the course, confirm the prestart windspeed is acceptable measured over a complicated timespan and trigger the start sequences.

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^ No it isn't, he's also responsible for the safety of everyone who enters the course which is why the Protocol gives him the ability to call off racing if it's too rough even if the wind is within the limits.  It's forecast to blow 23-24 knots tomorrow with gusts of 30+ and after seeing how on edge the boats were today + the admission that most actually hadn't tested them in those conditions I see little chance of racing tomorrow

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2 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Nope, Ian's job is to set the course, confirm the prestart windspeed is acceptable measured over a complicated timespan and trigger the start sequences.

Not true, he has a safety mandate also. So he can pull the pin on racing even if wind limits aren't breached.

After today, I'd be surprised if he didn't

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1 minute ago, Guitar said:

Image may contain: sky, outdoor, water and nature

OMG that's funny! It did not take long for the pranksters to come out!

 

WL

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Just now, jaysper said:

Not true, he has a safety mandate also. So he can pull the pin on racing even if wind limits aren't breached.

After today, I'd be surprised if he didn't

This is a protected bay so heavy seas will never be a reason to cancel races.  He has no safety mandate that would preclude starting tomorrow's races exactly as he did today.

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don't mean to offend, just putting some piss on remembering SF. All good.

Really glad to see nobody hurt and all safe. They'll be back out and kickin ass soon.

 

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37 minutes ago, Buck Turgidson said:

not sure that that will buff out!

Relax, alright? My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools. I can fix it.

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So aside from the pitchpole: Basher, Art & OR-JPN were really struggling for hydro today both races, ETNZ went foiling off upwind nearly immediately after finishing the 1st race.

ETNZ didn't appear to have any fairing damage from the 1st race.

Art hit 47kt on Entry in the 2nd race according to Virtualeye, only showed up to 46.9 on live graphics, 46 on last top mark rounding.

 

Art penalty seemed pretty excessive to me, RS said was partly because they were doing over 40kt on the downwind rather than attempting to scrub it off but surely they lost far more than the 2 boatlengths in the process of being over in the first place, yeah they got to skip a gybe but they fell behind by nearly the whole leg already.

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5 minutes ago, axolotl said:

This is a protected bay so heavy seas will never be a reason to cancel races.  He has no safety mandate that would preclude starting tomorrow's races exactly as he did today.

Oh yeah?  So he cancelled the opening day just for fun, right?

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2 minutes ago, hoom said:

So aside from the pitchpole: Basher, Art & OR-JPN were really struggling for hydro today both races, ETNZ went foiling off upwind nearly immediately after finishing the 1st race.

ETNZ didn't appear to have any fairing damage from the 1st race.

Art hit 47kt on Entry in the 2nd race according to Virtualeye, only showed up to 46.9 on live graphics, 46 on last top mark rounding.

 

Art penalty seemed pretty excessive to me, RS said was partly because they were doing over 40kt on the downwind rather than attempting to scrub it off but surely they lost far more than the 2 boatlengths in the process of being over in the first place, yeah they got to skip a gybe but they fell behind by nearly the whole leg already.

No problem with the penalty being awarded, but the umpire took an age to wash it off

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15 minutes ago, Frers381 said:

OMG that's funny! It did not take long for the pranksters to come out!

 

WL

There now - it doesn't look that bad when you get things in perspective.

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7 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Oh yeah?  So he cancelled the opening day just for fun, right?

Nope, it was obvious the winds would exceed the limit so he didn't even go out in his "windmeter" boat to check it out, cancelled the night before.
 

d America’s Cup Race Management (ACRM), have announced that the strong winds in Bermuda has meant that day one of the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup Qualifiers and the Official Opening Ceremony of the 35th America’s Cup has had to be postponed.

Forecasts indicate that winds may gust over 30 knots during the afternoon and evening, so with the safety of the sailors and spectators as the key priority, ACEA and ACRM have decided to postpone Friday’s events.

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This is why one boat per team is not sufficient. ETNZ may have parts from their test boat they can use, but I'm betting next time we will see 2 boats per campaign. The stakes involved versus the costs saved do not justify teams only being allowed to have one boat. 

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after all that the Kiwi boat wasnt as smooth as it normally is,

was going up and down like a rocking horse lots of the time.
I was thinking the acceleration, trim and foil angle thing in big wind needs a bit of work then oops.

Doing a Nacra C20 wheelie in a bear-away always exciting

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2 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Nope, it was obvious the winds would exceed the limit so he didn't even go out in his "windmeter" boat to check it out, cancelled the night before.
 

d America’s Cup Race Management (ACRM), have announced that the strong winds in Bermuda has meant that day one of the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup Qualifiers and the Official Opening Ceremony of the 35th America’s Cup has had to be postponed.

Forecasts indicate that winds may gust over 30 knots during the afternoon and evening, so with the safety of the sailors and spectators as the key priority, ACEA and ACRM have decided to postpone Friday’s events.

Haha you just said Iain Murray has no safety mandate, then quoted him in saying "with the safety of the sailors and spectators as the key priority" lol

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They were all tapped out of hydro. 

  in high winds the wing sheet is trimmed in much larger cycles as well as foil adjustments.

  it seems that it would make better sense and safer to take the wing trim off the hydro and put it on a hard connect dedicated winch and grinder.

letting the rest of the grinders only provide hydro for the foil...

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3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Haha you just said Iain Murray has no safety mandate, then quoted him in saying "with the safety of the sailors and spectators as the key priority" lol

f**k that, whatever looks good on TV is what pays the bills

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1 minute ago, sparkiwi said:

Am guessing this won't go in the Emirates Airline promo.

sure it will as the text is now readable

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6 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

sure it will as the text is now readable

Not to worry, it will be 5-1 tomorrow.

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Glad all well.

At least with BAR's DNFs they crossed the start line.

Sorry for the Kiwis. Hope no major issues and they're OK for racing tomorrow, if called upon.

But I have to say, towards a very small percentage of posters, there's some schadenfreude on my part. 

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4 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Not to worry, it will be 5-1 tomorrow.

Please don't say stupid things like that!

Peeps were on here predicting a black wash for today and look what the fuck happened to us!

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6 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Not to worry, it will be 5-1 tomorrow.

you really are trying to win the troll of cup and I think you are up 5-1 on your competition

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Rules

what happens if you hunt your opposition down from in front when they have a penalty to prevent them from clearing the 2 lengths?

You might choose to sail across the course for cover to gain tactically even if the distance is not gained?

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7 minutes ago, generative.design said:

What are those two pieces falling off before the wing hits the water I wonder

you mean the flying sailors?

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Pretty sure its bits of fairing from around the foils knocked off by the nose dive.

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12 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

Rules

what happens if you hunt your opposition down from in front when they have a penalty to prevent them from clearing the 2 lengths?

You might choose to sail across the course for cover to gain tactically even if the distance is not gained?

See rule 44.3:

Quote

Penalty completion

(a) A yacht completes her penalty when the umpires determine that a yacht has lost the

required distance and they have signalled that the penalty is completed via the RO

Comms.

(b) However, when it is clear to the umpires that the penalized yacht is reducing her

VMG / VMC but the loss of distance is not being incurred as intended, or the

situation is not covered in rule 44.2, the umpires shall make their best effort to

calculate what the VMG / VMC reduction should be. When they are satisfied with

the loss of distance, the umpires shall signal that the penalty is completed via the

RO Comms.

And the following umpire response to a team question:

Quote

Question D

What action will the umpires take if they believe that a non­penalised yacht is attempting to affect

or manipulate the outcome of a penalty?

Answer D

Only when the umpires are certain that a non­penalised yacht is attempting to affect how the loss

of distance is being incurred will the umpires act under rule 44.3(b).

 

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Good onya Pete. Tell 'em nothing take them nowhere......

Down but definitely not out.

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PB referred several times to being at or above the wind limit.

even though he then said "it's all part of it" every time after mentioning the wind limit.., i get the feeling he thinks they shouldn't have raced...

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4 minutes ago, us7070 said:

PB referred several times to being at or above the wind limit.

even though he then said "it's all part of it" every time after mentioning the wind limit.., i get the feeling he thinks they shouldn't have raced...

I bet even Grumpy would play nice if the teams got together to discuss lower limits. Every team was taking a beating out there today. 

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6 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I bet even Grumpy would play nice if the teams got together to discuss lower limits. Every team was taking a beating out there today. 

It was great TV so I would say nothing will change

they just need a pep talk from Chopper Read

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4 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I bet even Grumpy would play nice if the teams got together to discuss lower limits. Every team was taking a beating out there today. 

 

with TNZ the clear favorite.., the other teams have nothing to loose and everything to gain by keeping the minimums where they are

and that was true even without today's pitchpole

anything that can shake up what seems like a foregone conclusion is good for BAR, JAP, and ART - lot's of wind can do that. the last thing they want is for the LV series to play out according to the script

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

No problem with the penalty being awarded, but the umpire took an age to wash it off

NO at the presser said he was staying clear of OR-JPN incase of them wiping out but also they were not confident the foils would respond.

Then its 2 boatlengths from the distance when they re-enter & didn't slow too much on the downwind for safety while OR-JPN

NO always seems such a nice guy. I think all the rage on that team is tied up in Percy...

 

 

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40 minutes ago, hoom said:

Pretty sure its bits of fairing from around the foils knocked off by the nose dive.

From other angle its something off the centreline.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Please don't say stupid things like that!

Peeps were on here predicting a black wash for today and look what the fuck happened to us!

Quit worrying! jesus, you'll have no fingernails left, and you'll give yourself a heart attack mate! Shit happens, but its up to the boys to do what they can to fix it. What people predict has nothing to do with what happens on the water! 

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Highlights of the pressers:

- PB saying some of the team safely stayed on the boat..  and some of the team...  safely exited the boat.

- NO very calmly explaining that Percy and Richard will surely have a conversation later, and that the important thing is for them to come out with a clear understanding of how to handle a similar situation better in the future.  Percy's fire is impressive, but NO's professionalism was high class.

 

Found it interesting that the only skipper to go 2-0 on the day didn't get any questions, aside from being asked what he thought of the capsize (to which he simply said he didn't see it).  Makes me start to wonder if Japan might be able to quietly win the challenger series.  Drama is good for ratings, but not so good for winning.

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I think the one thing everyone realized today is GD was right about the wind limits. The Americas Cup is not an extreme sport. The wind limits are far too high and not only jeopardize the hardware, but jeopardize the well being of the competitors as was evident today. The AC isn't a TV sport. And the ratings and viewing audiences should never take priority over the safety of the competitors.

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Glad everyone is OK.

Irony to see the certain Kiwis now complaining that wind limits are too high and should be dropped for safety. 

Had it been BAR's wing that was broken when the race was postponed earlier, naturally that would have been proof that ACEA and RC were cheating against them

 

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I had a good sleep in this morning and I am just going to watch the replays.

Anything of interest happen today?

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Just now, sclarke said:

I think the one thing everyone realized today is GD was right about the wind limits. The Americas Cup is not an extreme sport. The wind limits are far too high and not only jeopardize the hardware, but jeopardize the well being of the competitors as was evident today. The AC isn't a TV sport. And the ratings and viewing audiences should never take priority over the safety of the competitors.

But...  the wind limits have been clearly defined for a long time, right?  So...  the boats should have been built to handle the max, and tested accordingly, right?  I can't comprehend going through all of that time and expense and saying "I hope they cancel if we're 2 kts below the max limit".  No.  There's a defined limit.  You don't cancel below that limit just because you think some teams under-built their boats.  You do what the rules said all along you would do.  Then it's on the teams to decide whether or not to race.

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1 minute ago, enigmatically said:

Glad everyone is OK.

Irony to see the certain Kiwis now complaining that wind limits are too high and should be dropped for safety. 

Had it been BAR's wing that was broken when the race was postponed earlier, naturally that would have been proof that ACEA and RC were cheating against them

 

Glad that everyone is OK on the Kiwi boat.

enig,

What do you expect from those Kiwi Fanboys here on SA?

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically said:

Glad everyone is OK.

Irony to see the certain Kiwis now complaining that wind limits are too high and should be dropped for safety. 

Had it been BAR's wing that was broken when the race was postponed earlier, naturally that would have been proof that ACEA and RC were cheating against them

 

Or, you know, nobody would give a fuck because BAR are living on borrowed time.

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6 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

But...  the wind limits have been clearly defined for a long time, right?  So...  the boats should have been built to handle the max, and tested accordingly, right?  I can't comprehend going through all of that time and expense and saying "I hope they cancel if we're 2 kts below the max limit".  No.  There's a defined limit.  You don't cancel below that limit just because you think some teams under-built their boats.  You do what the rules said all along you would do.  Then it's on the teams to decide whether or not to race.

exactly

looks like its the kiwi's and their trolls that need to harden the f**k up

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Watching the replays, it seems that ART's wing wasn't responding at all during the top mark gybe after leg 3 of race #1.. it wasn't popping so they had to abort the mark rounding. By that time they had already sustained some fairing damage, so perhaps the two were connected. However NO also stated that they had been having control issues all day, presumably also pre-start. Interesting nevertheless..

vlcsnap-2017-06-06-23h48m51s389.png

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Reality is that this capsize is probably the only highlight that will be shown of the challenger series...over...and over... and over... while I think everyone is glad that all the boys are safe and sound, but I'm sure there are people in AmerikasKup HQ toasting their good fortune tonight for the "Highlight Reel From Heaven"

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sclarke - you're a joke. endless vitriol about how burling walks on water and then once you've capsized you call foul on the wind. Do I think it safe today? No. but if entz didn't think it was safe then they should have started. The wind limits are what they are. Christ! we've just done 4 years with kiwi's telling us that the change to the wind limits cost them the cup and that they designed an up wind range boat......the fake kiwis on this site make me laugh with their complete lack of irony. Glad that all the kiwis sailors are safe. at the end of the day, this is only a bit of sailing and not worth dying for.

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13 minutes ago, sclarke said:

I think the one thing everyone realized today is GD was right about the wind limits. The Americas Cup is not an extreme sport. The wind limits are far too high and not only jeopardize the hardware, but jeopardize the well being of the competitors as was evident today. The AC isn't a TV sport. And the ratings and viewing audiences should never take priority over the safety of the competitors.

Oh....I saw something very different....other than the squalls...I see the sport in only these wind strength$$$$$$$......

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8 minutes ago, SENDITBOYS said:

Or, you know, nobody would give a fuck because BAR are living on borrowed time.

Borrowed Time? Race 3 was barnburner for 7 Legs.

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12 minutes ago, generative.design said:

Watching the replays, it seems that ART's wing wasn't responding at all during the top mark gybe after leg 3 of race #1.. it wasn't popping so they had to abort the mark rounding. By that time they had already sustained some fairing damage, so perhaps the two were connected. However NO also stated that they had been having control issues all day, presumably also pre-start. Interesting nevertheless..

vlcsnap-2017-06-06-23h48m51s389.png

Agree. He pleaded a case in the presser that the Umps should have determined a lesser penalty distance-wise for the reason they were trying to avoid 'the submarining SBTJ just 2 boatlengths ahead' but I took it differently when it happened, they looked f'd trying to maneouver there regardless and for a long time after.

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