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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
zillafreak

Live Racing Thread

10,193 posts in this topic

Pretty much a cock up all the way around. 

1. All of the boats racing yesterday were damaged by wind conditions that were within the wind parameters written in the rules written years ago.

2. Boats racing yesterday were not able or chose not to match race each other in the wind parameters written in the rules.

2. The best boat/team to challenge/beat the defenders maybe beaten by a team that is currently the worst performing of the four because of attrition.

3. None of the teams had practiced in the max conditions allowed in the AC rules written years ago.

4. Budgets and rules pretty much made it undesirable for the teams to take the chance/risk of practicing in max wind conditions.

 

Is this the pinnacle of yacht racing?

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Pukka said:

Thanks, Nav.

There is no upper limit for gusts, they of themselves cannot breech or exceed the wind limits, only the average has an upper limit

That, in itself, spells peril.

 

Have no fear, Iain can call off racing whenever he is told wants.

...the Regatta Director considers conditions too rough....

 

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2 minutes ago, Lartitude36S said:

And if Xerox dont transfer the funds into my swiss bank account soon I will definitely be calling off racing today....

I think you have it back the front ..ORT want them all out there falling apart to the extent the challenger is a slow poke that just happens to be the last one standing in one piece.

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18 minutes ago, spectator said:

Pretty much a cock up all the way around. 

1. All of the boats racing yesterday were damaged by wind conditions that were within the wind parameters written in the rules written years ago.

2. Boats racing yesterday were not able or chose not to match race each other in the wind parameters written in the rules.

2. The best boat/team to challenge/beat the defenders maybe beaten by a team that is currently the worst performing of the four because of attrition.

3. None of the teams had practiced in the max conditions allowed in the AC rules written years ago.

4. Budgets and rules pretty much made it undesirable for the teams to take the chance/risk of practicing in max wind conditions.

 

Is this the pinnacle of yacht racing?

 

 

 

 

Pinnacle of BS? (& two 2s!) :o

1 Wind measurement protocol and wind limits for ACC were amended on the 11th of May 2017

2a Boats may decline to race

2b ...because of driver/game-boy error

3 see 1

4 maybe, who knows...

 

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9 minutes ago, nav said:

Pinnacle of BS? (& two 2s!) :o

1 Wind measurement protocol and wind limits for ACC were amended on the 11th of May 2017

2a Boats may decline to race

2b ...because of driver/game-boy error

3 see 1

4 maybe, who knows...

 

From where are you getting it that boats are declined to race? Pretty sure the protocol says if you don't show up once it's a hefty fine, and if you don't show up a second time they can kick you out of the competition.

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The biggest BS today was ACEM as well as ACRM. Opening up the AC Village when there is no chance of racing is crap.

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1 hour ago, Pukka said:
  1 hour ago, nav said:

Gusts themselves cannot be over the limit - only the average.

That makes no sense. Also,

Is there a limit for top end of the gusts?

Is there a time limit for duration of gusts?

Rolling Av. is calculated at what interval?

Seems somewhat flakey for boats optimised for specific wind range.

 

 

1 hour ago, Pukka said:
  1 hour ago, nav said:

Gusts themselves cannot be over the limit - only the average.

That makes no sense. Also,

Is there a limit for top end of the gusts?

Is there a time limit for duration of gusts?

Rolling Av. is calculated at what interval?

Seems somewhat flakey for boats optimised for specific wind range.

 

Scroll up for exactly how they measure the windspeed before the start.

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33 minutes ago, nav said:

Pinnacle of BS? (& two 2s!) :o

1 Wind measurement protocol and wind limits for ACC were amended on the 11th of May 2017

2a Boats may decline to race

2b ...because of driver/game-boy error

3 see 1

4 maybe, who knows...

 

The very recent May 11-'17 amendment (rule #32.1) you are stating actually makes it even easier for the races being cancelled due to high wind compared to the whole time when teams were designing, developing & training for this months events. Max wind was reduced from 25kts to 24kts and measured as a rolling (box car) average of one hertz over 30 seconds instead of 60 seconds using a Gill Windsonic on the race committee boat as originally stated,

Before taking the time and effort to make rebuttal BS statements perhaps use the proper info that would support your statement and not against it?

 

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2 hours ago, spectator said:

Pretty much a cock up all the way around. 

1. All of the boats racing yesterday were damaged by wind conditions that were within the wind parameters written in the rules written years ago.

2. Boats racing yesterday were not able or chose not to match race each other in the wind parameters written in the rules.

2. The best boat/team to challenge/beat the defenders maybe beaten by a team that is currently the worst performing of the four because of attrition.

3. None of the teams had practiced in the max conditions allowed in the AC rules written years ago.

4. Budgets and rules pretty much made it undesirable for the teams to take the chance/risk of practicing in max wind conditions.

 

Is this the pinnacle of yacht racing?

 

 

 

 

Yep you are right.

The only place this is the pinnacle of yachting, are the pay-cheques of those saying it is the pinnacle.

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9 hours ago, maxmini said:

So then so the blame for this fall on the multitude of engineers and misspent $$$ in building the boats or is it the boats themselves? 

On a side note it might have been quite interesting watching some high tech monos playing out there yesterday . 

It's the fundamental nature of boats themselves, they are close to one design which pretty much limits what your "misspent $$$" can do and the basic platform just isn't up to dealing with 25+ wind speeds, it's not really surprising considering the design is clearly based around Oracles boat from last time with more consideration paid to speed than durability.

If they had allowed two different wing sizes it's possible that things might be better, but I am not sure even that would stop all the parts falling off like they are.

This is not a criticism of the design itself just an observation, these boats are absolutely stunning and I love them! they just clearly aren't designed to operate in 25+ knots of breeze.

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5 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

The latest from AC webpage

19029473_772466056255391_6072411428684768626_n.jpg

Presumably the order in which the team appear indicates the side of the start box? i.e. ETNZ v BAR and BAR v ETNZ as it appears in different races.

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41 minutes ago, Boybland said:

It's the fundamental nature of boats themselves, they are close to one design which pretty much limits what your "misspent $$$" can do and the basic platform just isn't up to dealing with 25+ wind speeds, it's not really surprising considering the design is clearly based around Oracles boat from last time with more consideration paid to speed than durability.

If they had allowed two different wing sizes it's possible that things might be better, but I am not sure even that would stop all the parts falling off like they are.

This is not a criticism of the design itself just an observation, these boats are absolutely stunning and I love them! they just clearly aren't designed to operate in 25+ knots of breeze.

If the boats are close to being out of control then control is the issue . 

More stable foils would be a start in the right direction as well as the method  of controlling them .

Same thing with the wing , it's one design yes but what each team is doing to the wing is far from one design . 

Perhapss the heavy air set of foils should be configured to the higher end of the pressure spectrum ? 

If NZ had a more stable foil in the water and perhaps a larger / deeper rudder would they still have gone down the mine ? 

Everyone pretty much  knew what the playing field was from day 1 and to raise objections now is certainly not a good look for the worlds best sailors on the worlds fastest boats in what was once the " pinnacle of sailing " . 

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The AC50 V2 if it happens should allow moveable flaps on the foils. 

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1 minute ago, maxmini said:

If the boats are close to being out of control then control is the issue . 

More stable foils would be a start in the right direction as well as the method  of controlling them .

Same thing with the wing , it's one design yes but what each team is doing to the wing is far from one design . 

Perhapss the heavy air set of foils should be configured to the higher end of the pressure spectrum ? 

If NZ had a more stable foil in the water and perhaps a larger / deeper rudder would they still have gone down the mine ? 

Everyone pretty much  knew what the playing field was from day 1 and to raise objections now is certainly not a good look for the worlds best sailors on the worlds fastest boats in what was once the " pinnacle of sailing " . 

There are two issues here:

1) The rules for the class are just fucken ridiculous and incompatible with racing in high winds (if you call 20 knots high). This is just one of many ways in which Coutts screwed the pooch. 

2) Etnz knew about the rules and decided to participate anyway. Therefore they need to do exactly what they have done, which is pull on their big boy pants and get on with it.

 

None of that excuses Coutts for this total clusterfuck of an AC. Imagine if Etnz damage their wings tomorrow and go home. As an american fan you might be pleased. But the fact that it is a possibility proves the point. 

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16 minutes ago, jaysper said:

There are two issues here:

1) The rules for the class are just fucken ridiculous and incompatible with racing in high winds (if you call 20 knots high). This is just one of many ways in which Coutts screwed the pooch. 

2) Etnz knew about the rules and decided to participate anyway. Therefore they need to do exactly what they have done, which is pull on their big boy pants and get on with it.

 

None of that excuses Coutts for this total clusterfuck of an AC. Imagine if Etnz damage their wings tomorrow and go home. As an american fan you might be pleased. But the fact that it is a possibility proves the point. 

1) I agree

2) this result ain't sui generis:

OINZ105.jpg

3) it matters more when the boats go full trebuchet at 40 knots.

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Just now, Rule69 said:

1) I agree

2) this result ain't sui generis:

OINZ105.jpg

3) it matters more when the boats go full trebuchet at 40 knots.

Full trebuchet. I like that :)

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

There are two issues here:

1) The rules for the class are just fucken ridiculous and incompatible with racing in high winds (if you call 20 knots high). This is just one of many ways in which Coutts screwed the pooch. 

2) Etnz knew about the rules and decided to participate anyway. Therefore they need to do exactly what they have done, which is pull on their big boy pants and get on with it.

 

None of that excuses Coutts for this total clusterfuck of an AC. Imagine if Etnz damage their wings tomorrow and go home. As an american fan you might be pleased. But the fact that it is a possibility proves the point. 

The " pinnacle of sailing " can't be limited to conditions less that your local beer can regatta .

Every team knew the parameters yet designed boats that apparently many are calling dangerous and unraceable in anything within 5kts of max velocity . 

If the boats can't handle it then they need better boats . 

As for ET's damage you are incorrect with regards to my personal views . 

If they hold together and take the cup I will be happy for the crew and the true fans of which very few frequent this site . 

I truly dislike the direction the AC has taken and its current format in so many ways and Grant being Grant would make every change he could and some of them might be good . 

If OR keeps the Cup then I guess I can be somewhat satisfied seeing it kept in the states not to mention watching several of you , you know who you are , lose their fucking minds like last time :) 

 

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4 minutes ago, maxmini said:

The " pinnacle of sailing " can't be limited to conditions less that your local beer can regatta .

Every team knew the parameters yet designed boats that apparently many are calling dangerous and unraceable in anything within 5kts of max velocity . 

If the boats can't handle it then they need better boats . 

As for ET's damage you are incorrect with regards to my personal views . 

If they hold together and take the cup I will be happy for the crew and the true fans of which very few frequent this site . 

I truly dislike the direction the AC has taken and its current format in so many ways and Grant being Grant would make every change he could and some of them might be good . 

If OR keeps the Cup then I guess I can be somewhat satisfied seeing it kept in the states not to mention watching several of you , you know who you are , lose their fucking minds like last time :) 

 

I agree that they can't be limited like that but the reality is that the class rule is unworkable much above 20 knots.

Etnz sustained the most severe damage but artemis and Japan also copped a fair bit.

I'm not whining about how unfair it is that etnz fucked their boat. I'm just whining (let's be fair) about what a fucking shambles this ac is. In 2007 Ernie was still a total cock and did his best to tilt the playing field but at least 2007 was a good regatta and the class rule was fit for purpose. 

And BTW,  I was using you in the generic sense. That is, suggesting some American fans might be pleased - I didn't think you'd be one of them.

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12 minutes ago, maxmini said:

The " pinnacle of sailing " can't be limited to conditions less that your local beer can regatta .

 

Which why it plays out in protected lagoon.

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While the boats are very cool to watch for a while, I really do miss pure matching racing like the AC is suppose to be. I certainly do not enjoy the BS of this Oracle/Coutts organization and idea of what AC should be.

I'm hoping any of the four challengers win this AC so they can host the next AC with NZ being the least of the four since they already have been the host but please no more Oracle/Coutts.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I agree that they can't be limited like that but the reality is that the class rule is unworkable much above 20 knots.

Etnz sustained the most severe damage but artemis and Japan also copped a fair bit.

I'm not whining about how unfair it is that etnz fucked their boat. I'm just whining (let's be fair) about what a fucking shambles this ac is. In 2007 Ernie was still a total cock and did his best to tilt the playing field but at least 2007 was a good regatta and the class rule was fit for purpose. 

And BTW,  I was using you in the generic sense. That is, suggesting some American fans might be pleased - I didn't think you'd be one of them.

We are on the same page with regards to the direction of the Cup .

The class rule is fine , 24 kts MAX , seriously ? 

Its the class of boats that's not up to providing the " pinnacle " that the AC once was . 

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18 minutes ago, maxmini said:

The " pinnacle of sailing " can't be limited to conditions less that your local beer can regatta .

 

This kinda like arguing that F1 cars should be able to get over speed bumps and curb-ramps into the parking lot to compete in weekend road-car autocross.

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54 minutes ago, maxmini said:

If the boats are close to being out of control then control is the issue . 

More stable foils would be a start in the right direction as well as the method  of controlling them .

Same thing with the wing , it's one design yes but what each team is doing to the wing is far from one design . 

Perhapss the heavy air set of foils should be configured to the higher end of the pressure spectrum ? 

If NZ had a more stable foil in the water and perhaps a larger / deeper rudder would they still have gone down the mine ? 

Everyone pretty much  knew what the playing field was from day 1 and to raise objections now is certainly not a good look for the worlds best sailors on the worlds fastest boats in what was once the " pinnacle of sailing " . 

I'm not actually talking about ETNZ specifically though, I don't think any of theose boats are equipped to deal with 25+  There is a very tight limit on the number of foils, the wing is one size which is basically much too big for 25 knots.  Weight and a number of other aspects are all governed by the rules as are the materials used.

I actually don't think longer rudders would have ETNZ anyway, larger foils might have, but once again they are restricted in what they can do there.

I don't think there is actually a problem with the boats, I just don't think they should be out in 25+, I don't know about you but the moment they started racing the other day I was just sitting there waiting for the inevitable to happen.  To be honest I didn't think it was going to be ETNZ either, I had actually picked ART of JAP to do themselves some serious damage while pressing hard, which they did, just not on the scale of what ETNZ managed to pull off!

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How about a vote:

Who here likes Coutts? YES or No

 

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Just now, maxmini said:

We are on the same page with regards to the direction of the Cup .

The class rule is fine , 24 kts MAX , seriously ? 

Its the class of boats that's not up to providing the " pinnacle " that the AC once was . 

But the class rule dictates the class of Boat! 

Yup 24 knots because they fucked the class rule.

Should have allowed different wings for different wind ranges plus higher minimum weights etc. Then 30 knots would have been OK. 

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i think what we saw yesturday was that the boats hadn't been designed to the wind limits.  ETNZ's capsize was just that a capsize and not a reflection on design but the number of components seen falling off the boats was a bit silly.

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9 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

This kinda like arguing that F1 cars should be able to get over speed bumps and curb-ramps into the parking lot to compete in weekend road-car autocross.

Would you limit F1 cars to 100 mph so they can make it around the track ? 

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1 minute ago, SCARECROW said:

i think what we saw yesturday was that the boats hadn't been designed to the wind limits.  ETNZ's capsize was just that a capsize and not a reflection on design but the number of components seen falling off the boats was a bit silly.

Without the ability to use a smaller wing for high winds I don't think it is possible to design to that wind limit.

The wings just generate too much power no matter how much you depower them.

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Just now, ~Stingray~ said:

BAR bore away just fine.

The pp was etnz fault, but look at Japan and artemis! Stupid class rule. Hope it gets dumped or at least severely modified.

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Just now, maxmini said:

Would you limit F1 cars to 100 mph so they can make it around the track ? 

No but you wouldn't specify an engine that must never produce less than 500 horsepower, even whilst cornering or in the wet and that's kinda what they did by specifying only one all purpose wing (all Purpose? Oh crap!  Starting to sound like Doug! :D )

 

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1 minute ago, maxmini said:

We are on the same page with regards to the direction of the Cup .

The class rule is fine , 24 kts MAX , seriously ? 

Its the class of boats that's not up to providing the " pinnacle " that the AC once was . 

I think there was a lot of concern that hydrofoiling wouldn't work in lower winds than what SF offered, but they are actually pretty amazing - even in 6kts, and so can be adapted to most sailing venues.  AC50's seem to be a pretty good size for cost management (open development AC45 would be better, same speed, slightly lower cost and easier to transport and handle on shore). AC45's only cost about $1million.  A removable top to wings would be a good step to increase wind limits as for the 45's.

These boats are so fast that they need a bigger course and dedicated tactician, and less (grinder) constraints on manoeuvring to bring even more tactical sailing back in.  They are only losing 1-2s in a good turn now.

They also desperately need 2-3 boats per team and crews for in-team development and training (so less vulnerability to breakdowns in fast-paced regatta).  The boats aren't a big cost, and could be made a lot simpler and cheaper by eliminating grinders, and using a fixed central cockpit.

with 2 cycles of development these boats will get to be very close in performance with better and better racing resulting.

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All the part breakages were 100% the fault of the teams and their designers.  they could have gone heavier and stronger but chose not to.

 

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9 minutes ago, maxmini said:

Would you limit F1 cars to 100 mph so they can make it around the track ? 

Eh? Who's suggesting that? We are discussing the condition of the track, not the power of the cars.

Believe it or not, in certain conditions, F1 races (and others) are red flagged due to too heavy rain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_red-flagged_Formula_One_races

You're argument is essentially "Hardly the pinnacle of motorsport if they can't go out in the rain, whereas I can in my Mustang"

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11 minutes ago, jaysper said:

But the class rule dictates the class of Boat! 

Yup 24 knots because they fucked the class rule.

Should have allowed different wings for different wind ranges plus higher minimum weights etc. Then 30 knots would have been OK. 

So the class of boat needs  to be changed to allow for them to sail in conditions that are worthy of the " pinnacle " of yacht racing .  

Our personal tastes are not going to be the driving factor to be honest . The more narrow the acceptable wind range the more postponements and cancellations will come about which in turn will make the all mighty networks less willing to schedule an AC event in place of Bowling For Dollars . The main revenue source for the holy grail of sustainability is broad cast TV and at the current rate it ain't pretty . When a car auction draws 190,000 and the death defying AC draws 140,000 you have a problem . 

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48 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Full trebuchet. I like that :)

I had to look that one up. Great diction.

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Just now, maxmini said:

So the class of boat needs  to be changed to allow for them to sail in conditions that are worthy of the " pinnacle " of yacht racing .  

Our personal tastes are not going to be the driving factor to be honest . The more narrow the acceptable wind range the more postponements and cancellations will come about which in turn will make the all mighty networks less willing to schedule an AC event in place of Bowling For Dollars . The main revenue source for the holy grail of sustainability is broad cast TV and at the current rate it ain't pretty . When a car auction draws 190,000 and the death defying AC draws 140,000 you have a problem . 

AC will never likely be main stream anywhere but NZ and only for as long as etnz exists.

Problem is that Wussell is in denial about this. 

The people who follow it will do so regardless of wind delays and those who don't just won't no matter how fast and dangerous the boats are.

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31 minutes ago, spectator said:

While the boats are very cool to watch for a while, I really do miss pure matching racing like the AC is suppose to be. I certainly do not enjoy the BS of this Oracle/Coutts organization and idea of what AC should be.

I'm hoping any of the four challengers win this AC so they can host the next AC with NZ being the least of the four since they already have been the host but please no more Oracle/Coutts.

 

 

 

Boats are screaming like jet fighters, I have seen foil tacking duel at around to 30 kts, any cat sailors would love to helm at these speeds.

Wanna go back to 10 kts ?

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49 minutes ago, maxmini said:

The " pinnacle of sailing " can't be limited to conditions less that your local beer can regatta .

Every team knew the parameters yet designed boats that apparently many are calling dangerous and unraceable in anything within 5kts of max velocity . 

If the boats can't handle it then they need better boats . 

As for ET's damage you are incorrect with regards to my personal views . 

If they hold together and take the cup I will be happy for the crew and the true fans of which very few frequent this site . 

I truly dislike the direction the AC has taken and its current format in so many ways and Grant being Grant would make every change he could and some of them might be good . 

If OR keeps the Cup then I guess I can be somewhat satisfied seeing it kept in the states not to mention watching several of you , you know who you are , lose their fucking minds like last time :) 

 

C'mon, Max with a few exceptions, "your local beer can regatta" is not raced with full wing sail craft.

Although ETNZ tried very hard to reef their wing, it almost proved beyond them. 

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2 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Eh? Who's suggesting that? We are discussing the condition of the track, not the power of the cars.

Believe it or not, in certain conditions, F1 races (and others) are red flagged due to too heavy rain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_red-flagged_Formula_One_races

You're argument is essentially "Hardly the pinnacle of motorsport if they can't go out in the rain, whereas I can in my Mustang"

Great example f exactly what we are talking about .

F1 cars and their tire selection are set for almost all conditions . 

For dry they separate compounds , soft and super soft et. 

For wet conditions they have  full wet and intermediate tred patterns .

As soon as it begins to rain they don't head for the paddock they deal with the conditions accordingly as they have been designed to .

The red flag event you refer too could equate to a gale force wind on a sailing course not just a fresh breeze . 

The F1 cars deal with a whole range of conditions successfully and don't get parked unless things get really bad as the very limited number of red flag do to weather stoppages attest to . 

In closing , go hammy :) 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Boats are screaming like jet fighters, I have seen foil tacking duel at around to 30 kts, any cat sailors would love to helm at these speeds.

Wanna go back to 10 kts ?

I don't count 2 or 3 tacks as a tacking duel!

Get back to me when they get to at least 10 on a single leg. 

What they have done is taken the game of chess and replaced it with checkers so that the games are easy for the slow kids to understand and are over quick enough to fit in a 30 minute broadcast window.

To quote Trump - #sad. :D

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8 minutes ago, jaysper said:

AC will never likely be main stream anywhere but NZ and only for as long as etnz exists.

Problem is that Wussell is in denial about this. 

The people who follow it will do so regardless of wind delays and those who don't just won't no matter how fast and dangerous the boats are.

I know it is religion there , think the shed people :) 

The  issue is they are banking everything on TV revenue and you KIWI's better be buying a lot of sets because the rest of the world is slowly tuning the AC out . The ACEA rolled the nice and went for a new market and pretty much lost the old . The Facebook generation took a look and based on the reported viewership slowly lost interest . Yes there are thousands that love it especially in your neck of the woods but if they want this gravey train to keep rumbling they need millions of fans and the corresponding dollars for the Boyzze to be gainfully employed . 

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18 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

C'mon, Max with a few exceptions, "your local beer can regatta" is not raced with full wing sail craft.

Although ETNZ tried very hard to reef their wing, it almost proved beyond them. 

No they don't have wing boats but they have less cancellations than the AC :) 

24 kts max is not the pinnacle of anything with perhpas of kite fighting but I would have to check on that . 

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10 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I don't count 2 or 3 tacks as a tacking duel!

Get back to me when they get to at least 10 on a single leg. 

What they have done is taken the game of chess and replaced it with checkers so that the games are easy for the slow kids to understand and are over quick enough to fit in a 30 minute broadcast window.

To quote Trump - #sad. :D

There may have been a few more tacks but we would never know due to the 3 min commercials every 5 min.

Speed is a plus but speed alone can not over come the minuses at least for those interested in actual sailing as they are accustomed to. The less you know the more speed matters apparently . 

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43 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Boats are screaming like jet fighters, I have seen foil tacking duel at around to 30 kts, any cat sailors would love to helm at these speeds.

Wanna go back to 10 kts ?

Absolutely if it means real matching racing.

Obviously your slanted towards cats (as your name states) and also not having experience or much knowledge in match racing. Match racing has nothing about with speed, that's not what match racing is about just like a chess game (don't start with speed chess). Your telling me that you more enjoy watching a boat like jet fighters than watching the art of match racing and lets be honest there has been very little tacking duels in this AC compared to full on match racing; it's been more about banging the corners. I don't think I've seen one lee bow.

There has been a fascination for organizers of trying to blend/inject more pizzaz to appease tv viewers with lack of matching racing knowledge at the cost of having excellent match racing. Granted the AC has been an incredible platform for new technology trickling down to the avg. sailor and seeing these new foiling cats is cool, there's no doubt about that.

If it's about speed in the AC watching competitors screaming like jet fighters then why don't we screw the cats and change to ice boats?

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14 minutes ago, maxmini said:

No they don't have wing boats but they have less cancellations than the AC :) 

24 kts max is not the pinnacle of anything with perhpas of kite fighting but I would have to check on that . 

Not sure you understood the point I tried to make, Max. Maybe I didn't explain it adequately?

In "your local beer can regatta" the yachts are normally able to take small to deep reefs in their mains'ls, to mitigate higher wind strengths (otherwise they'd fall on their guts and go round in circles). The exceptions being those wing sail craft, which have smaller wings for heavy air. So, of course there are fewer cancellations, as you suggest.

ACC boats have a full-sized wing, so.....

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I'm sure 50 people will correct me if I'm wrong...

Isn't the back section of the wing free with regards to rules with the exception of a maximum area?  If this is the case there was actually nothing stopping the teams building a strong and light wind specific wing the same as they have done with the foils.

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Back again to the same old shit discussion. Where is it written that AC cup has to be match racing.

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1 minute ago, jorge said:

Back again to the same old shit discussion. Where is it written that AC cup has to be match racing.

At present it's an 18min race in a protected lagoon.

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4 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

I'm sure 50 people will correct me if I'm wrong...

Isn't the back section of the wing free with regards to rules with the exception of a maximum area?  If this is the case there was actually nothing stopping the teams building a strong and light wind specific wing the same as they have done with the foils.

From memory, the entire wing profile is exactly specified?

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5 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

I'm sure 50 people will correct me if I'm wrong...

Isn't the back section of the wing free with regards to rules with the exception of a maximum area?  If this is the case there was actually nothing stopping the teams building a strong and light wind specific wing the same as they have done with the foils.

A bit like Doug's AP foil theory in reverse you mean?

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1 minute ago, jorge said:

Back again to the same old shit discussion. Where is it written that AC cup has to be match racing.

Agreed, just because there just two boats on the course it has not always been match racing as we know it now.  Match racing is a fairly recent introduction into AC.  Even the Olympics have ditched it, it doesn't make good television.  There was not a lot of passing with match racing in the mono AC but a whole there is a lot more in this circus.

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15 minutes ago, spectator said:

Absolutely if it means real matching racing.

Obviously your slanted towards cats (as your name states) and also not having experience or much knowledge in match racing. Match racing has nothing about with speed, that's not what match racing is about just like a chess game (don't start with speed chess). Your telling me that you more enjoy watching a boat like jet fighters than watching the art of match racing and lets be honest there has been very little tacking duels in this AC compared to full on match racing; it's been more about banging the corners. I don't think I've seen one lee bow.

There has been a fascination for organizers of trying to blend/inject more pizzaz to appease tv viewers with lack of matching racing knowledge at the cost of having excellent match racing. Granted the AC has been an incredible platform for new technology trickling down to the avg. sailor and seeing these new foiling cats is cool, there's no doubt about that.

If it's about speed in the AC watching competitors screaming like jet fighters then why don't we screw the cats and change to ice boats?

As I was mentioning, it's not only about speed but tactic, when the yacht behind tacks, should you cover ? should you go to the boudary to minimize the number of tacks ?  should you try to use it if you will be port ? do you have more chances or less than the other to succeed your foiling tack ? will the other get to the next gate with his tack or not ?

These are all the questions Franck Cammas had to ask himself against Ben Ainslie, he made the wrong choice, or perhaps the good one considered his boat, he lost, and ended his trip in the AC.

And that is for only one part of one race, you don't thinks it's tactic ? with the bonus of speed.

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7 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Agreed, just because there just two boats on the course it has not always been match racing as we know it now.  Match racing is a fairly recent introduction into AC.  Even the Olympics have ditched it, it doesn't make good television.  There was not a lot of passing with match racing in the mono AC but a whole there is a lot more in this circus.

Mono vs Multi.

Well, at least we know the old slam dunk doesn't work in this AC. I think we saw it once and Jimmy just rocketed right on by. Still, it probably didn't work against ETNZ's support boat either, so I'm not sure who's bag of matchracing tricks that came out of.  Must have been one of Ray's ideas, eh?

Come to think of it, last time I saw that attempted, we very nearly had a capsized AC72.

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4 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Mono vs Multi.

Well, at least we know the old slam dunk doesn't work in this AC. I think we saw it once and Jimmy just rocketed right on by. Still, it probably didn't work against ETNZ's support boat either, so I'm not sure who's bag of matchracing tricks that came out of.  Must have been one of Ray's ideas, eh?

Come to think of it, last time I saw that attempted, we very nearly had a capsized AC72.

I think that was Ray's call also.  There are definitely new tactics being employed with these boats and that makes it fresh and interesting.  Match racing in monos at the top level is too predictable for the competitors as they all know the moves and counter-moves..

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38 minutes ago, jorge said:

Back again to the same old shit discussion. Where is it written that AC cup has to be match racing.

"The grounds for match racing were originally set about one hundred and forty four years ago when the first America’s Cup was set to take place in its one of a kind event. The match racing rules were set so that you could have two similar boats within a box rule. A box rule which specifies a maximum overall size for boats in the class, as well as features such as stability. That could go head to head in attempt to find the best sailing crews and teams. These rules allow one boat to try to attack the other by getting the other boat penalized so that it puts the penalized boat at a large disadvantage compared to the other."

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2 hours ago, maxmini said:

The " pinnacle of sailing " can't be limited to conditions less that your local beer can regatta .

It was the challengers who got the ws criteria limit reduced from 25 to 24k and  and where the defender reluctantly agreed. It is short course racing with a boat speed of 40k+ that is the foundation of rules and boat spec.

If your local beer can regatta has boat's running around at 1.6 times wind speed then your local boat builders must be fuckin rich keeping that lot going around.

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33 minutes ago, spectator said:

"The grounds for match racing were originally set about one hundred and forty four years ago when the first America’s Cup was set to take place in its one of a kind event. The match racing rules were set so that you could have two similar boats within a box rule. A box rule which specifies a maximum overall size for boats in the class, as well as features such as stability. That could go head to head in attempt to find the best sailing crews and teams. These rules allow one boat to try to attack the other by getting the other boat penalized so that it puts the penalized boat at a large disadvantage compared to the other."

But I agree with others, we are digressing 

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57 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Not sure you understood the point I tried to make, Max. Maybe I didn't explain it adequately?

In "your local beer can regatta" the yachts are normally able to take small to deep reefs in their mains'ls, to mitigate higher wind strengths (otherwise they'd fall on their guts and go round in circles). The exceptions being those wing sail craft, which have smaller wings for heavy air. So, of course there are fewer cancellations, as you suggest.

ACC boats have a full-sized wing, so.....

No I did understand your point and mine was referring to the fact that if we lower the wind limits to what appears to be 20kts or less to keep the poorly designed boats ( when shit blows off the boat there is a problem ) from falling apart on the course there is even less of a reason the call this the pinnacle of anything other than cash outlay . 

Lowering the wind limits will create a even smaller window of acceptable sailing which in turn create more delays and postponements which will make the sport even less attractive to the TV networks which is the lifeblood of the sustainability dream . 

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2 minutes ago, maxmini said:

No I did understand your point and mine was referring to the fact that if we lower the wind limits to what appears to be 20kts or less to keep the poorly designed boats ( when shit blows off the boat there is a problem ) from falling apart on the course there is even less of a reason the call this the pinnacle of anything other than cash outlay . 

Lowering the wind limits will create a even smaller window of acceptable sailing which in turn create more delays and postponements which will make the sport even less attractive to the TV networks which is the lifeblood of the sustainability dream . 

Yeah. I understand where you're coming from, Max.

But these ACC boats have created a whole new "thing" in yacht racing. Generating AWS's (4 x's the TWS) has not been done before in competitive sailboat racing. The problem is, even for the designers, crews and racing officials, it's all very new territory. They have yet to adapt.

Maybe the old constraints of maximum hull speed in lead mines just can't apply anymore?

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^ Consider this. Water comes out of a fire hose at approximately 70 miles per hour. Turn that hose directly onto your average carbon fibre supercar and what might happen to the trim?

A bit of a stretch, I know but you get the picture.

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23 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

^ Consider this. Water comes out of a fire hose at approximately 70 miles per hour. Turn that hose directly onto your average carbon fibre supercar and what might happen to the trim?

A bit of a stretch, I know but you get the picture.

Then obviously boats aren't meant to sail this fast.

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15 minutes ago, Lartitude36S said:

Then obviously boats aren't meant to sail this fast.

Do you people really not get it? The boats are designed around the wind limits and the expected conditions at the venue. If the event was in Fremantle again and you could expect 25+ knots every day you would get a very different boat (and need higher wind limits). If the venue was LIS in summer and all you were expecting was up to 10 kts each day, again you would get a very different boat.

The boats are not poorly designed but are very exactly designed to deal with a specific range of conditions. If yesterday was the absolute top end of conditions that the boats were designed to sail in then 3 out of four completing the course and 1 not due to crew error is probably what you would expect. 

There were some references earlier to F1 and dry/ wet tracks. What % of cars usually end up in the barriers when it starts to rain? It would certainly be unusual for all of them to finish a wet race. 

Whatever you define as your wind limits or typical conditions, the designers will end up pushing the as far as possible. Teams design, teams choice to race etc. The organising committee set the parameters and it is then up to the teams to figure out how they manage that.

   

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23 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:
30 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Do you people really not get it? The boats are designed around the wind limits and the expected conditions at the venue. If the event was in Fremantle again and you could expect 25+ knots every day you would get a very different boat (and need higher wind limits). If the venue was LIS in summer and all you were expecting was up to 10 kts each day, again you would get a very different boat.

The boats are not poorly designed but are very exactly designed to deal with a specific range of conditions. If yesterday was the absolute top end of conditions that the boats were designed to sail in then 3 out of four completing the course and 1 not due to crew error is probably what you would expect. 

There were some references earlier to F1 and dry/ wet tracks. What % of cars usually end up in the barriers when it starts to rain? It would certainly be unusual for all of them to finish a wet race. 

Whatever you define as your wind limits or typical conditions, the designers will end up pushing the as far as possible. Teams design, teams choice to race etc. The organising committee set the parameters and it is then up to the teams to figure out how they manage that.

   

Exactly. This is also why it's a straw man argument to say 'NZ were the only team who didn't want a 23kn limit' because what they argued then isn't relevant now - the rule was set and NZ built to that rule, and wouldn't have expected to have to sail in squally puffy conditions right at the wind limit, because it became more about staying in one piece than actually racing to win. Just ask NO.

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8 hours ago, spectator said:

 

Before taking the time and effort to make rebuttal BS statements perhaps use the proper info that would support your statement and not against it?

 

 

A very defensive and disingenuous post.

Your argument was that the wind limits had been set and known for years. I pointed out your error.

Neither their original 'reasonableness' or the effect of the recent change was at issue.

I'm confident I know the background ;)

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6 hours ago, jaysper said:

But the class rule dictates the class of Boat! 

Yup 24 knots because they fucked the class rule.

Should have allowed different wings for different wind ranges plus higher minimum weights etc. Then 30 knots would have been OK. 

Yes but expensive

They are at the cutting edge so they should be able to reef them in some manner.

Maybe build them up in sections so its another technical decision to make on race day

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18 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

The Pearl Island Weather Station currently showing average speeds below 24 knots and windguru even below 20 knots

https://www.windguru.cz/237485

Those graphics you're posting a BS.

Hey moron, they were actual readings and yes you were wrong. Perhaps learn the difference between observations and forecasts.

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2 hours ago, nav said:

 

A very defensive and disingenuous post.

Your argument was that the wind limits had been set and known for years. I pointed out your error.

Neither their original 'reasonableness' or the effect of the recent change was at issue.

I'm confident I know the background ;)

Then perhaps you should re-read what that reply was responding to and it's tone. Your implying that the campaigns were only recently told in May's addendum what the wind parameters for racing are?

You state "Neither their original 'reasonableness' or the effect of the recent change was at issue". Please spell it out what you meant for us uniformed bystanders and why the original 23.1 was not regarded?

After been in development for several campaigns and olympics, disregarding race parameters would be foolish. As several have mentioned, developing a boat for Fremantle is a classic example.

I know I'm over stating the obvious: it's not about being the fastest, more importantly it's about winning your races. You can't win the cup if you can't finish your races. Ask GBR, NZL and SWE what they think about that? It's not over yet but it's all about winning the races you need to and part of winning is not letting attrition impact you more than the others before the war is over. Knowing the conditions of your battlefield is part of that.

All this talk has only been about one day of strong winds, what happens when we have several more?

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7 hours ago, trt131 said:

I think that was Ray's call also.  There are definitely new tactics being employed with these boats and that makes it fresh and interesting.  Match racing in monos at the top level is too predictable for the competitors as they all know the moves and counter-moves..

I think the pinching battles add a different dimension. 

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8 hours ago, rh2600 said:

You're argument is essentially "Hardly the pinnacle of motorsport if they can't go out in the rain, whereas I can in my Mustang"

 

thank you.gif

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15 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Hi, welcome back to the asylum, my friend! :D

Thanks Renn :) It seems like we are a long way from the courthouse. I still think back to that hour plus chat with the judge after the case was settled and hearing her take on it all, realizing just how bamboozled she was by the lawyers. Well, anyways, the racing now is pretty cool. I'm headed down there for the first weekend of the finals. Lots of pictures to follow... 2N

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Just saw TeamNZ out on the Sound so clearly they've got a boat that can sail ! 

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9 minutes ago, Traci said:

Just saw TeamNZ out on the Sound so clearly they've got a boat that can sail ! 

 

i just saw the french boat go by.

nice day for a sail i guess...

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3 hours ago, spectator said:

Then perhaps you should re-read what that ..

Listen this is the what 4th attempt to dodge something quite simple.

You claimed the wind conditions where in place and know for years.

This is wrong and I took the time to point out your error - a simple 'thanks for the correction' would have sufficed.

No need for the drama - but don't build arguments on based misinformation...and expect them to go unremarked

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5 minutes ago, nav said:

Listen this is the what 4th attempt to dodge something quite simple.

You claimed the wind conditions where in place and know for years.

This is wrong and I took the time to point out your error - a simple 'thanks for the correction' would have sufficed.

No need for the drama - but don't try to build arguments on based misinformation either

as was pointed out to you  - the recent (May i think) ammendment  _lowered_ the max windspeed from 25 to 24kts

the 25kt limit -from what i can tell - had been in place for about a year before that...

so the boats should have been ready to sail in 25kts.

The RC should just enforce the 24kt maximum as objectively as possible, and only cancel if the winds, measured according to the protocol, are above that. in my view, they should not use the other clause ("too rough")  to cancel if the wind is say averaging 23kts - the average windspeed issue is already handled by the protocol. that clause should be reserved for other factors - squalliness,  sea state and so on.

i have no reason to believe that the cancellation yesterday resulted from anything but an objective application of the protocol criterion. The RC as much as said that in their notification.

 

 

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The platforms (boats) are one design, everyone has the same and are allowed no changes. The wings are also one design, the only deviation is you are allowed your own control system.

Yes the fairings are too light!

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looking at todays schedule, it looks kinda dumb.  SBTJ and ART has a back to back race. 

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Here's my prediction for today:

SBTJ wins two in a row and closes it out. 

LRBAR wins the first one, ENTZ wins the second, then there is a collision in race three that disqualifies one of the two boats.

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Oracle out on water now, blowing 18k here or so

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1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

Are we starting an hour earlier today?

No

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1 hour ago, dent said:

looking at todays schedule, it looks kinda dumb.  SBTJ and ART has a back to back race. 

Err.  No

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2 hours ago, us7070 said:

as was pointed out to you  - the recent (May i think) ammendment  _lowered_ the max windspeed from 25 to 24kts

 

:D You are kidding right?

What is this tag team posting?

I know very well what the amendment says, it was me that posted it here in the first place, along with comments on it's validity and the changes to the measurement protocol - that, as per AC34, can have a far bigger impact on the effective range that a 1 kt change in the upper limit.

 

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44 minutes ago, monochrome said:

Probably just a mistake on the website.

In the pic the schedule looks normal.

This. It was supposed to be that SF2R6 was the last Wednesday race and SF2R7 was the first Thursday race, followed by SF1R7. When they moved the four Wednesday races to Thursday, they switched the order of SF2R7 and SF1R7 to prevent the back-to back. Seems like the website people just didn't realize that.

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17 minutes ago, nav said:

:D You are kidding right?

What is this tag team posting?

I know very well what the amendment says, it was me that posted it here in the first place, along with comments on it's validity and the changes to the measurement protocol - that, as per AC34, can have a far bigger impact on the effective range that a 1 kt change in the upper limit.

 

well, it appears that you are arguing that the fact that the boats will be required to race in winds up to 24kts, is something of a surprise to them...

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3 hours ago, 2Newts said:

Thanks Renn :) It seems like we are a long way from the courthouse. I still think back to that hour plus chat with the judge after the case was settled and hearing her take on it all, realizing just how bamboozled she was by the lawyers. Well, anyways, the racing now is pretty cool. I'm headed down there for the first weekend of the finals. Lots of pictures to follow... 2N

Yep, the good old times, this was something else. The community was better too, the trolls more containable ;)

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13 hours ago, spectator said:

"The grounds for match racing were originally set about one hundred and forty four years ago when the first America’s Cup was set to take place in its one of a kind event. The match racing rules were set so that you could have two similar boats within a box rule. A box rule which specifies a maximum overall size for boats in the class, as well as features such as stability. That could go head to head in attempt to find the best sailing crews and teams. These rules allow one boat to try to attack the other by getting the other boat penalized so that it puts the penalized boat at a large disadvantage compared to the other."

The true contest began about  racing around an island and boats had to go sailing to the venue. That's the way it has to be. Trying to penalized the other boat, is more or less like trying to don't let the other win, instead of you trying to win.

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That's in LR-BAR's self-declared sweet spot, right?

So, it'll be a fair test to decide which boat, ETNZ and LR-BAR, really should go forward? No excuses?

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1 minute ago, TN_Kiwi said:

That's in LR-BAR's self-declared sweet spot, right?

So, it'll be a fair test to decide which boat, ETNZ and LR-BAR, really should go forward? No excuses?

I think its a bit high for BAR's sweet spot IIRC

 

But nevertheless, no excuses from me

Hopefully no excuses when Ben screws Pitch-Pole in the pre-start and leaves him vainly trailing that there is tioo much wind or something

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30 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Yep, the good old times, this was something else. The community was better too, the trolls more containable ;)

Back then were trolls of substance... not sour whingers of newt, that seems to be the vibe this round.

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5 minutes ago, enigmatically said:

I think its a bit high for BAR's sweet spot IIRC

 

But nevertheless, no excuses from me

Hopefully no excuses when Ben screws Pitch-Pole in the pre-start and leaves him vainly trailing that there is tioo much wind or something

Yup - I'll be surprised if P3 (P-P Pete) can get best of BA, even with Stbd entry. Maybe ETNZ will just try a time & distance approach.

Either way - gonna be fun to see.

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