zillafreak

Live Racing Thread

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2 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Even Ken Read stated "the Umpires were very generous today" The young ETNZ team is still very green when it comes to the ruthless world of Americas Cup. In Olympic sailing, its about respecting your competitors and doing the best you can to win any given race. In the AC its about kill or be killed, they need to be ruthless. Spithill is ruthless, he'll yell and scream to get his way, thats what the Kiwi's need to learn. 

You wrote: "Spithill is ruthless, he'll yell and scream to get his way, thats what the Kiwi's need to learn."

Every AC Challenger needs to not only learn it, but also to 'own' it. The America's Cup is war, not a racing regatta!

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1 minute ago, WetHog said:

You would think they could unite under one smart ass acronym, but our Kiwi friends are a bit slow that way.  OR-SBJ should be the universal acronym for Soft Dick Japan.  Simple and direct.  Don't hold your breath our Kiwi friends will figure it out though.  

WetHog  :ph34r: 

Here's hoping!

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1 hour ago, 167149 said:

yup though at those speeds and the closeness it could well have turned to crap pretty quickly

I suspect it was a case of better safe than sorry on Burling part.

Would probably have just kept on trucking if the race really mattered.

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5 minutes ago, nav said:

All the races can be reviewed in virtualeye... under historical - Bermuda 2017

https://www.americascup.com/en/virtualeye.html

Not sure virtual eye is going to be any more accurate than the video I'm watching. Can't tell if there's an overlap.

(Also, the feed I see when I go to Bermuda 2017 seems to be some other ETNZ vs Oracle race on a different course, with ETNZ winning).

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47 minutes ago, **ONTOIT** said:

What's BA going to call that...A Fuck Tap??

One hell of a love bite anyway.. 

The problem with sailing Finn's & Lasers is you can be super aggressive, and at worse the boats bounce off each other and maybe someone gets a bruise. 

You can't do that in these boats.. 

To be fair to Ben, it almost looks as if TJ lost control slightly through the nose dive rather than simply luffed hard. 

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3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Even Ken Read stated "the Umpires were very generous today" The young ETNZ team is still very green when it comes to the ruthless world of Americas Cup. In Olympic sailing, its about respecting your competitors and doing the best you can to win any given race. In the AC its about kill or be killed, they need to be ruthless. Spithill is ruthless, he'll yell and scream to get his way, thats what the Kiwi's need to learn. 

Absolutely correct, and exactly why Oracle won today. The new kids may be a better choice for making these things go fast, but a battle proven vet can upset things pretty quickly. 

This will be a fun one to watch, regardless who wins. 

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3 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Agreed but Barker's move may have been more aggressive than he intended; when his SB bow dug underwater it looked like that hooked SBTJ to windward a bit. Legal rules-wise but somewhat 'contributory' to the accident.

Possibly, but it is surprising Ben didn't react sooner, he did nothing to prevent the hook, was always going to get hooked, got hooked, still didn't move, then right at the last moment responded and did exactly the wrong thing!

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Just now, 33jesus said:

Here's hoping!

It's only you folks who are too slow to differentiate...we have no problems, but here's a quick reference just for you.

OR-Xerox = The cheaters

OR-JPN = The cheaters' surrogate yacht.

You're welcome.

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Just now, Indio said:

It's only you folks who are too slow to differentiate...we have no problems, but here's a quick reference just for you.

OR-Xerox = The cheaters

OR-JPN = The cheaters' surrogate yacht.

You're welcome.

Like I said, there have been plenty of people to use 'OR-Xerox' to refer to STJ. There's genuine ambiguity there.

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1 minute ago, waterboy42 said:

One hell of a love bite anyway.. 

The problem with sailing Finn's & Lasers is you can be super aggressive, and at worse the boats bounce off each other and maybe someone gets a bruise. 

You can't do that in these boats.. 

To be fair to Ben, it almost looks as if TJ lost control slightly through the nose dive rather than simply luffed hard. 

If Ben had his boat riding another foot out of the water that could have been fatal as the whole impact from his boat would have hit the grinders and not the Japanese boat. That was scary.

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3 minutes ago, 33jesus said:

Here's hoping!

How about Soft Oracle......

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3 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Possibly, but it is surprising Ben didn't react sooner, he did nothing to prevent the hook, was always going to get hooked, got hooked, still didn't move, then right at the last moment responded and did exactly the wrong thing!

Or in other words "he blinked".

Getting sick of the shit being thrown at Deano. He owned Ben in that race.

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1 minute ago, JJD said:

How about Soft Oracle......

I like that one.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, Happie Jack said:

I do think many need to get their heads around real time on the water umpire decisions, it is going to be a long winded whiney what if yeah butt pages of dribble the next few weeks otherwise!

Are you kidding me? ??

It will be that around here anyway! 

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Just now, jaysper said:

If Ben had his boat riding another foot out of the water that could have been fatal as the whole impact from his boat would have hit the grinders and not the Japanese boat. That was scary.

 

My thoughts exactly, it could have slid further across the deck like a guillotine until the Main Foil stopped it.. Or broke. 

 

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I have to say, its much easier just to call them by name isn't it? ETNZ OTUSA, Softbank, Artemis, LRBAR and Team France.

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Actually, I think NZ might've protested. At the very least PB turned to the committee boat with his hand in the air after the luff.

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1 minute ago, sclarke said:

I have to say, its much easier just to call them by name isn't it? ETNZ OTUSA, Softbank, Artemis, LRBAR and Team France.

Sure, but some of your countrymen/women are sore losers.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, sclarke said:

I have to say, its much easier just to call them by name isn't it? ETNZ OTUSA, Softbank, Artemis, LRBAR and Team France.

+ a zillion.

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3 minutes ago, Happie Jack said:

I do think many need to get their heads around real time on the water umpire decisions, it is going to be a long winded whiney what if yeah butt pages of dribble the next few weeks otherwise!

Actually, it's been pleasantly surprising so far. Everyone seems to agree with each other. The only penalty discussion is over a non-existent protest, so just hypothetical. 

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3 minutes ago, nav said:

20170527_AC35LIVE_RP4388.JPG

20170527_AC35LIVE_RP4423(1).JPG

20170527_AC35LIVE_RP4434(1).JPG

Is there a picture of the actual damage yet?  

Meh, dumb question.  If there was I am sure Nav would have it by now. ;)

The fucking gas powered pump is not a good sign.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, jawjaw said:

Actually, I think NZ might've protested. At the very least PB turned to the committee boat with his hand in the air after the luff.

Don't know whether lifting his hand in the air at the Kommittee boat constitutes a formal protest...

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2 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Sure, but some of your countrymen/women are sore losers.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Not up to me to disagree, but didn't you just say you did the same thing at AC34?

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2 minutes ago, jawjaw said:

Actually, I think NZ might've protested. At the very least PB turned to the committee boat with his hand in the air after the luff.

Pretty sure a hand in the air means approximately fuck all. 

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Just now, Indio said:

Don't know whether lifting his hand in the air at the Kommittee boat constitutes a formal protest...

Of course, I'm just saying that if he reacted that way physically he presumably felt they had a case and pressed the protest button, too.

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2 minutes ago, waterboy42 said:

 

My thoughts exactly, it could have slid further across the deck like a guillotine until the Main Foil stopped it.. Or broke. 

 

Actually I wondered if their foil contacted Japan boat.

Ben needs to get his shit together cos there have been two contacts so far and both been his fault. The first one caused serious boat damage and this one could have had just terrible consequences. 

Fucking idiot.

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2 minutes ago, jawjaw said:

Not up to me to disagree, but didn't you just say you did the same thing at AC34?

I did, but there is a difference.  Soft Dick Japan actually appears to be competitive.  LR wasn't 4 years ago, a true puppet.  I mean poodle.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Seems like Groupama is slow and they don't have good boat handling. A shame.

I am guessing that the pedal power on ETNZ is great for power, for windage, helm visibility, and I think they are moving around less, resulting in a smoother ride. I am not sure if they will be as fast/agile running across the boat after a couple of races.

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1 minute ago, Monkey said:

Actually, it's been pleasantly surprising so far. Everyone seems to agree with each other. The only penalty discussion is over a non-existent protest, so just hypothetical. 

I think what he is trying to say is "You all need to just say Oracle is stronger, better and faster than anyone else, and no one comes close" and then in a loud voice scream "USA, USA, USA" then he'll be happy.

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6 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Given the surprising fast Speed BAR showed against ART they just should have picked one side of the starting line, stay far away from the Japanese and attacked on the Race Course after the start.

Tactics won that race not a differential in boat speed. If he'd conceded the start he would most likely have lost anyway.

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1 minute ago, sclarke said:

I think what he is trying to say is "You all need to just say Oracle is stronger, better and faster than anyone else, and no one comes close" and then in a loud voice scream "USA, USA, USA" then he'll be happy.

I haven't seen the race yet, but the exact same thing would be coming out of ETNZ fans if the roles were reversed.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Just now, sclarke said:

I think what he is trying to say is "You all need to just say Oracle is stronger, better and faster than anyone else, and no one comes close" and then in a loud voice scream "USA, USA, USA" then he'll be happy.

I'd love too, but in my mind, it's pretty much a coin flip between Oracle and Emirates at this point. Lots can still change though. 

Ben will probably sink at least one of them anyway. 

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1 minute ago, WetHog said:

I did, but there is a difference.  Soft Dick Japan actually appears to be competitive.  LR wasn't 4 years ago, a true puppet.

WetHog  :ph34r:

So you're saying there's good reason to criticise a team for copying another team...unless they're good in which case the first reason doesn't apply and the only reason left is being a sore loser?

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21 minutes ago, Indio said:

It's only you folks who are too slow to differentiate...we have no problems, but here's a quick reference just for you.

OR-Xerox = The cheaters

OR-JPN = The cheaters' surrogate yacht.

You're welcome.

Both are problems only for you. Unfortunately your OR-JPN is also a problem for other readers since it can be confusing if you are referring to both teams instead of only SBTJ - which is it's correct name and deserves respect or everyone would call every team something childish and derogatory instead. No team is without issues but most are putting in the best effort they can.

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8 minutes ago, nav said:

20170527_AC35LIVE_RP4388.JPG

20170527_AC35LIVE_RP4423(1).JPG

20170527_AC35LIVE_RP4434(1).JPG

20170527_AC35LIVE_RP4449.JPG

20170527_AC35LIVE_RP4409.JPG

Given that the damage is at the very bottom of the hull, they must have come close to going right over the top and seriously injuring the Japanese grinders.

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Thanks, nav: One pic = 1M words | © Ricardo Pinto + America's Cup + ACEA 2017 in Bermuda 05.27.2017

One pic = 1M words  © Ricardo Pinto + America's Cup + ACEA  05.27.2017 in Bermuda.JPG

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When you watch it back, as I've just done, it looked as if Barkers move caught Ainslie by surprise, and in trying to avoid, the boat got up on the foils, picked up speed and got out of control. It doesn't look like Ainslie had much of a choice, as Barkers move meant he came in at speed, his bows dug in and he looked to drift towards BAR, and Ben lost control of the boat trying to take evasive action.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Gal said:

Thanks, nav: One pic = 1M words | © Ricardo Pinto + America's Cup + ACEA 2017 in Bermuda 05.27.2017

One pic = 1M words  © Ricardo Pinto + America's Cup + ACEA  05.27.2017 in Bermuda.JPG

Aren't those buckets supposed to be blue?

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Just now, jawjaw said:

So you're saying there's good reason to criticise a team for copying another team...unless they're good in which case the first reason doesn't apply and the only reason left is being a sore loser?

Clearly you weren't around here leading up to, and during, AC34.  

I will clarify though, to me only the OR-Xerox comments fall under the sore loser category.

WetHog  :ph34r: 

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2 minutes ago, Rohanoz said:

Aren't those buckets supposed to be blue?

Nah.  Thats a Kiwi thing.  :D

WetHog  :ph34r:

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5 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Given that the damage is at the very bottom of the hull, they must have come close to going right over the top and seriously injuring the Japanese grinders.

 

Crushed against the cockpit sides by three tons of boat, I expect we'll see some sot of reaction from the umpires/ACDUH, that will have shaken them....

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3 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Clearly you weren't around here leading up to, and during, AC34.  

I will clarify though, to me only the OR-Xerox comments fall under the sore loser category.

WetHog  :ph34r: 

Yeah,  I'm not sure how it really applies because when you put something in a Xerox machine it usually doesn't come out better....

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3 minutes ago, Happie Jack said:

Being more of an OiOiOi type i resemble that remark!

The reality is, even going back 2 decades when we had on the water umpires, those are the conditions so every effort to gain advantage needs to be done, is there a penalty for pressing thje buzzer to question a situation = so why not do that rather than wave arms or use mind flow transference to will the umpires to make a decision in your favour.

The 2 big fellas (umpires) have every angle under the sun & knowing how they opperate on course they always have the right angle in any tight situation plus instant playback. 

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3 minutes ago, Happie Jack said:

Being more of an OiOiOi type i resemble that remark!

The reality is, even going back 2 decades when we had on the water umpires, those are the conditions so every effort to gain advantage needs to be done, is there a penalty for pressing thje buzzer to question a situation = so why not do that rather than wave arms or use mind flow transference to will the umpires to make a decision in your favour.

I think perhaps the word you're looking for is "Resent" haha. I can't say why they didn't protest, because in hindsight they probably should have. But I guess it could be because its not what they're used to. They're green in terms of AC type kill or be killed type racing. They will have learned that today. In Olympic sailing he who sails best will win. In the AC, sometimes its he who can influence an umpire and take advantage of a 50/50 situation by yelling and screaming will gain an advantage, and thats what happened today. 

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1 minute ago, SoCalSlacker said:

Yeah,  I'm not sure how it really applies because when you put something in a Xerox machine it usually doesn't come out better....

Agreed.  I guess better copying devices haven't made it down to Kiwiland yet.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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10 minutes ago, sclarke said:

When you watch it back, as I've just done, it looked as if Barkers move caught Ainslie by surprise, and in trying to avoid, the boat got up on the foils, picked up speed and got out of control. It doesn't look like Ainslie had much of a choice, as Barkers move meant he came in at speed, his bows dug in and he looked to drift towards BAR, and Ben lost control of the boat trying to take evasive action.

Watch it again from BAR's rear camera. Kenny called it, BAR went high up on the foil and slid/slipped into/onto SBTJ. 

EDIT: I didn't see any evasive action from BAR, they seemed to just straight line it...

 

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OK Traditionalist - I gotta cal you out - That was totally cool racing, and only the TNZ/Oracle race could have been longer...AND these sailing machines are beautiful, even if they don't look like Hershoff's wet dream.

 

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3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The hull damage was done by the grinding mills IMO, they were lucky, it saved TJ crew life.

I thought BAR was going to snap off the top of Japan's foil.  I think the crew would have been protected by the shrouds.

 

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5 minutes ago, AWASP said:

The 2 big fellas (umpires) have every angle under the sun & knowing how they opperate on course they always have the right angle in any tight situation plus instant playback. 

There was no call to make because Burling blinked. 

If he had not you might have seen penalty against Oracle. 

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1 minute ago, Liquid said:

Watch it again from BAR's rear camera. Kenny called it, BAR went high up on the foil and slid/slipped into/onto SBTJ. 

Yeah its sort of hard to say. I think both boats may have drifted into each other. BAR more than Softbank, but that's exactly what it looked like. BAR just got up on the foils as Ben took evasive action. It just didn't work out the way he wanted. It certainly looked pretty bad, but I think given the situation, Ben did everything he could to avoid, he just lost control for that split second.

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Any replays available anywhere. keen to see that mark rounding again in OR TNZ race

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28 minutes ago, sclarke said:

I have to say, its much easier just to call them by name isn't it? ETNZ OTUSA, Softbank, Artemis, LRBAR and Team France.

Thank you!

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7 minutes ago, pwormwood said:

OK Traditionalist - I gotta cal you out - That was totally cool racing, and only the TNZ/Oracle race could have been longer...AND these sailing machines are beautiful, even if they don't look like Hershoff's wet dream.

 

Overall, a stunning first day by most measures.

That 'headline' race especially was a screamer, great action all the way around. 

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Hmmmm. Pretty conclusive in freeze frame. A bit more difficult at 40knots.

Screen Shot 2017-05-28 at 9.12.19 AM.png

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19 minutes ago, sclarke said:

When you watch it back, as I've just done, it looked as if Barkers move caught Ainslie by surprise, and in trying to avoid, the boat got up on the foils, picked up speed and got out of control. It doesn't look like Ainslie had much of a choice, as Barkers move meant he came in at speed, his bows dug in and he looked to drift towards BAR, and Ben lost control of the boat trying to take evasive action.

Surprise yes.  Failed to react.  Yes. Deserved foul 

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1 minute ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Overall, a stunning first day by most measures.

That 'headline' race especially was a screamer, great action all the way around. 

+1 Certainly amazing spectacle. 

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The crash that may have cost Land Rover BAR the AC: https://www.facebook.com/americascup/videos/1755978197761939/

 

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1 minute ago, Sailbydate said:

Hmmmm. Pretty conclusive in freeze frame. A bit more difficult at 40knots.

Screen Shot 2017-05-28 at 9.12.19 AM.png

I just think Burling was conservative in an effectively worthless race when compared to the potential damage that could have occurred. 

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3 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Hmmmm. Pretty conclusive in freeze frame. A bit more difficult at 40knots.

Screen Shot 2017-05-28 at 9.12.19 AM.png

Based on their angles, in that shot, Oracle has overlap. 

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Also I would bet a good chunk of money that the umpires data stream includes "overlapped"

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Is there any way for them to tell us how much time or how many times each boat hit the water with hulls?

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I just think Burling was conservative in an effectively worthless race when compared to the potential damage that could have occurred. 

That may be so Jays, but Pistol Pete is going to have to harden up, if he wants to get on top of JS.

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2 minutes ago, WetHog said:

262y4wl.jpg

How do you fix that?

WetHog  

So if there's no redress is this the end of BARs 2 point leg up?

That looks at least 2-3 days in the shed.

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1 minute ago, SoCalSlacker said:

Also I would bet a good chunk of money that the umpires data stream includes "overlapped"

Certainly would hope so - just frustrating that they don't have that sort of info on the broadcast (other than KR saying 'they had the overlap' pretty confidently). All this shit about making it TV friendly and they haven't really improved the broadcast since last time.

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Just now, Barnyb said:

18698341_1266846013434065_4490991883449487380_n.jpg

That turned into this:

262y4wl.jpg

The damage is in the center of the port hull.  I'll ask again, how do you fix that?

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Not having seen much of the racing since the last cup, I hadn't considered the 'over-under' possibilities of the boats.

it seemed like when they finally reacted to the situation the boat reared up, at the same time as the Japanese boat was dropping down.

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1 minute ago, FinnFish said:

So if there's no redress is this the end of BARs 2 point leg up?

That looks at least 2-3 days in the shed.

How can there be redress? It was his fault! 

He won't be out of cup though because that would require France to beat other teams 4 times. Good luck with that. 

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1 minute ago, jaysper said:

Can't believe some dick heads o. Facebook  blaming Barker for that.

Well he could have avoided the situation altogether if he'd wanted to. Didn't need to go near BAR if he wanted to avoid the risk of contact.

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Gotta agree with sclarke - think it was a combination of two things, SBTJ diggings their bows in and skewing to weather, and Ben being caught by surprise, and experiencing a bit of "foil-slip" as he (belatedly) took avoiding action. Quick question to this who have sailed foilers (and I haven't) - is this "foil-slip" something that the helms will have regularly experienced and should be prepared for? My guess is that this is the tightest racing we have seen in this class, and so even the experts are being caught out a bit.

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2 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Based on their angles, in that shot, Oracle has overlap. 

Agree.  Transom angle of ETNZ transom crosses OR.  Only issue was the closing speed of OR approaching the circle. If in doubt safer for Burling to give OR room as he does.  Next time unlikely to be caught unawares and could have luffed up to break the overlap a bit earlier. 

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6 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Based on their angles, in that shot, Oracle has overlap. 

Shouldn't apply when the first boat gets into the circle.

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The Stache trying out that trolling thing.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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18 minutes ago, mattdarnell said:

I thought BAR was going to snap off the top of Japan's foil.  I think the crew would have been protected by the shrouds.

 

I guess it helped but the mills prevented the hull to crush a limb or a head.

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3 minutes ago, WetHog said:

The Stache trying out that trolling thing.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

Wrong flag, no?

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Not sure he silenced much after what he did to Soft Dick Japan.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, Happie Jack said:

Hindsight much?

No.... you get in a luffing match you risk contact, even if you're in the right. And with these boats contact will lead to damage. 

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1 minute ago, FinnFish said:

Wrong flag, no?

I guess they'll put an Aussie flag up when ETNZ does.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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7 minutes ago, nroose said:

Is there any way for them to tell us how much time or how many times each boat hit the water with hulls?

Not sure. Maybe the BMW FlyTime will kick off again soon?

I intend to chart a lot of that and more from the LiveStream datasets for in case ACEA doesn't start providing it. But only for select races since my process for loading and analyzing is not yet as slick as what it needs to get.

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Pretty tough moment for Ben. Dean came in hot and then turned up forcing Ben to have to try and avoid. I don't think anyone could've avoided Japan in that situation at those speeds. Deserved penalty yes. But its the same as Rugby where the rules say the tackler must roll away, well its pretty hard to do that when you have 10 guys on top of you in the ruck.

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