Jolly Roger

Rule 18.3 technical question

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Hi, so quick 18.3 question for racing in strong current.  We are Starboard (S) inside the 3 boat length circle, but everyone is overstood because of the current.  We are bearing off already to fetch the mark.  A boat (P) comes in on port below us inside the circle and tacks to starboard inside of us.  P is now also fetching the mark but tacked inside the 3 boat length circle.  Can we 'shut the door' on him and keep him from rounding or do we have to give him room even though he tacked to starboard inside the circle?  To give him room we would not need to go above close hauled since we are overstood (due to the current).

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If you entered the zone already fetching the mark for a Port rounding, then R 18.3 applies.

After he tacks, you have to stay clear under R 11 W/L. If he takes you above close hauled, he breaks R 18.3.

Under R 18.3, he does not gain mark room, but the other rules of Part 2 still apply.

John

 

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1 hour ago, Jolly Roger said:

Hi, so quick 18.3 question for racing in strong current.  We are Starboard (S) inside the 3 boat length circle, but everyone is overstood because of the current.  We are bearing off already to fetch the mark.  A boat (P) comes in on port below us inside the circle and tacks to starboard inside of us.  P is now also fetching the mark but tacked inside the 3 boat length circle.  Can we 'shut the door' on him and keep him from rounding or do we have to give him room even though he tacked to starboard inside the circle?  To give him room we would not need to go above close hauled since we are overstood (due to the current).

You don't have to give him room, but you do have to keep clear of him (while overlapped or clear astern). so unless you can get clear ahead (and regain right of way) you can't 'shut the door on him' because you would break R11 or R12 if you did.

giving room (or mark room) has a very specific meaning in the RRS and a boat that tacks inside the zone has some limitations but they also still have a lot of rights, especially if they are the right of way boat.

 

 

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18.3 Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her

 

Seems pretty clear. You didn't have to sail above close hauled to avoid contact.

You should have shut the door early (ie: foot off so you will just make the mark with a bit of shooting), or if a bit further back, aim to duck and go inside him.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Jolly Roger said:

Hi, so quick 18.3 question for racing in strong current.  We are Starboard (S) inside the 3 boat length circle, but everyone is overstood because of the current.  We are bearing off already to fetch the mark.  A boat (P) comes in on port below us inside the circle and tacks to starboard inside of us.  P is now also fetching the mark but tacked inside the 3 boat length circle.  Can we 'shut the door' on him and keep him from rounding or do we have to give him room even though he tacked to starboard inside the circle?  To give him room we would not need to go above close hauled since we are overstood (due to the current).

No.  As long as he does not make you sail above close hauled to keep clear, he is ROW leeward boat once he tacks onto starboard and therefore you must keep clear.

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he gets in

 

nothing you can do about it.

 

what sportboat jeff said

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15 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

18.3 Tacking in the Zone

If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her

 

Seems pretty clear. You didn't have to sail above close hauled to avoid contact.

You should have shut the door early (ie: foot off so you will just make the mark with a bit of shooting), or if a bit further back, aim to duck and go inside him.

 

 

Be carful here, you do have to sail above close hauled to keep clear, and then protest him for your having to sail above CH. 

if you decide to not sail above close hauled, and he has to avoid you, you brake rrs 11, whether or not he broke 18.3. 

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8 hours ago, SailChiTown said:

Be carful here, you do have to sail above close hauled to keep clear, and then protest him for your having to sail above CH. 

if you decide to not sail above close hauled, and he has to avoid you, you brake rrs 11, whether or not he broke 18.3. 

Agreed -- my point is for S to foot early and shut the door only when he has ROW (port/stb).

If P is trying it on and tacks below S, S must come back up to avoid P as required by 11. S then pinches or shoots if required, and just clears the mark.

As discussed quite extensively when 18.3 came in, this is where it gets a bit silly. If P is fetching the mark, then she cannot force S above close-hauled; however -- if S has shut that door down tight, and there's no way P will fetch the mark, she can force S above close-hauled.

Of course if P is looking far enough ahead and is sensible about it, he'll realise there's no room and will duck S before any of that malarkey.

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thinking about this a little more - 18.3 would let P come in, tack under S, take her head to wind (to slow or stop them both) while they were both carried to the mark by the current, then bear off and round the mark.

Technically, in that situation, P 'fetched' the mark.

 

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1 hour ago, duncan (the other one) said:

thinking about this a little more - 18.3 would let P come in, tack under S, take her head to wind (to slow or stop them both) while they were both carried to the mark by the current, then bear off and round the mark.

Technically, in that situation, P 'fetched' the mark.

 

Wrong. Not inside the 3bl circle.

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I think the point that Duncan is trying to make (but not very clearly ) is that 18.3 had an poorly thought through rewrite this year that has led to an unfortunate conclusion.

Previously 18.3 applied when S could fetch the mark.

it has been rewritten so that it only applies if P can fetch the mark.

So we get the absurd result that even if S is fetching the mark, P can luff S above close hauled if P is not fetching the Mark.

Previously, if you were a boat (S) on stbd fetching a mark, and P comes in and tacks onto stbd to leeward, P could not luff you above chc ....period!

With the rule change, team racers have discovered, that if you are P and S shuts the door such that S is barely making the Mark, you tack inside the zone, below lay and luff S head to wind so that S can no longer fetch the Mark, forcing S to tack.

The defense against this is to shut the door but have enough momentum to respond to the luff and still get around the Mark.

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Sail faster.  Slow boats that aren't polite need lawyers,and sailing isn't  lawyering. 

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You should have foot off before, denying him room to tacked from Port to Starboard between you and the mark - forcing him to go behind your stern.

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Ok, thanks for the explanation(s), that makes sense.  We don't have any protests or after race rules discussions since we are meant to be a 'friendly' racing club...

I have previously avoided port approaches but this opens up some new tactical options.  Cheers.

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I guess I need to crack out my rule book and freshen up because I thought having the S boat inside the 3bl circle already to me meant that any boat who comes in on Port and tacks onto starboard has absolutely no rights whatsoever and needs to exit that situation immediately.  

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Two things i always consider doing in this scenario when I'm S are:

1. Bearing down at a faster rate to discourage P to tack in there. Just reduces space and increases the likelihood of P penalizing you. P should recognize this and either duck or fully cross you before tacking.

2. If you have the speed and space come down and get an inside overlap on P and he still has to give you mark room. 

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2 hours ago, WCB said:

I guess I need to crack out my rule book and freshen up because I thought having the S boat inside the 3bl circle already to me meant that any boat who comes in on Port and tacks onto starboard has absolutely no rights whatsoever and needs to exit that situation immediately.  

Yes, that's a common misconception. 

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4 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

I think the point that Duncan is trying to make (but not very clearly ) is that 18.3 had an poorly thought through rewrite this year that has led to an unfortunate conclusion.

Previously 18.3 applied when S could fetch the mark.

it has been rewritten so that it only applies if P can fetch the mark.

So we get the absurd result that even if S is fetching the mark, P can luff S above close hauled if P is not fetching the Mark.

Previously, if you were a boat (S) on stbd fetching a mark, and P comes in and tacks onto stbd to leeward, P could not luff you above chc ....period!

With the rule change, team racers have discovered, that if you are P and S shuts the door such that S is barely making the Mark, you tack inside the zone, below lay and luff S head to wind so that S can no longer fetch the Mark, forcing S to tack.

The defense against this is to shut the door but have enough momentum to respond to the luff and still get around the Mark.

Ok.  Went to the garage and got the NEW rules book off the top of the Laser.  Rule 18.3:

"If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her.  yada, yada, yada..."

So, you can tack in the zone in front of an oncoming STBD boat.  However, it they have to luff above close hauled to avoid you, (and presumably get around the mark in the same process) then you're out.  Remember, if you are the port boat the onus in on you in the protest room.  Without a solid witness you'll lose nearly every time.

Team racing rules only change the zone from 3 bl's to 2 bl's and deletes rule 18.4.  18.3 is still valid.

 

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3 hours ago, guerdon said:

Sail faster.  Slow boats that aren't polite need lawyers,and sailing isn't  lawyering. 

Team racers and those who enjoy the competition of close quarter racing between equal boats don,t need lawyers or manners, just a good head for tactics and the rules.

It is after all a competition.

WCB: It was previously true that if you are S entering the 3BL you have a very strong tactical position. It is still true.  However to keep the race course reasonably even the rules have always allowed P to enter on port and tack to leeward of the starboard line up...provided you do not force the Starboard boats to sail above chc.  It is not uncommon for the starboard parade to overstand the layline to keep clear air, so there can be opportunities. As others have pointed out S can bear away early to close that opportunity ( they have to be careful to comply with rule 16, and give P room to keep clear ) 

The twist in the recent rules is that 18.3 is not turned on if S forces P to tack below the layline such that P cannot fetch the mark.  P can now try to luff like beejesus and try and force S to tack off.   I cannot imagine doing this in a fleet race where both would lose (much better to take the duck and go wide)....but in a team race....maybe. Despite the theoretical possibilities, that the rule revision opens, you wont see it much in real life because if P cannot fetch, S can probably just roll right over P and pinch to lay the mark. Have I seen the new move tried? Yes a few times. Have I seen it succeed? Once.

If  P pinches off S into a forced tack, then P should also immediately tack because P has to show that they could not fetch the mark + They dont want to be pinned a second time.,

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16 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Ok.  Went to the garage and got the NEW rules book off the top of the Laser.  Rule 18.3:

"If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the zone to sail above close hauled to avoid contact and she shall give mark room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her.  yada, yada, yada..."

So, you can tack in the zone in front of an oncoming STBD boat.  However, it they have to luff above close hauled to avoid you, (and presumably get around the mark in the same process) then you're out.  Remember, if you are the port boat the onus in on you in the protest room.  Without a solid witness you'll lose nearly every time.

Team racing rules only change the zone from 3 bl's to 2 bl's and deletes rule 18.4.  18.3 is still valid.

 

No need to go into the garage.....the rules are online.

2017 Version :   "If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark

Rule 13 is only turned if P is fetching the mark

2013 Version:  "If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack as a boat that is fetching the mark"

Rule 13 is turned on if S is fetching the mark irrespective of whether P is fetching the mark


 

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1 hour ago, Mambo Kings said:

Team racers and those who enjoy the competition of close quarter racing between equal boats don,t need lawyers or manners, just a good head for tactics and the rules.

It is after all a competition.

WCB: It was previously true that if you are S entering the 3BL you have a very strong tactical position. It is still true.  However to keep the race course reasonably even the rules have always allowed P to enter on port and tack to leeward of the starboard line up...provided you do not force the Starboard boats to sail above chc.  It is not uncommon for the starboard parade to overstand the layline to keep clear air, so there can be opportunities. As others have pointed out S can bear away early to close that opportunity ( they have to be careful to comply with rule 16, and give P room to keep clear ) 

The twist in the recent rules is that 18.3 is not turned on if S forces P to tack below the layline such that P cannot fetch the mark.  P can now try to luff like beejesus and try and force S to tack off.   I cannot imagine doing this in a fleet race where both would lose (much better to take the duck and go wide)....but in a team race....maybe. Despite the theoretical possibilities, that the rule revision opens, you wont see it much in real life because if P cannot fetch, S can probably just roll right over P and pinch to lay the mark. Have I seen the new move tried? Yes a few times. Have I seen it succeed? Once.

If  P pinches off S into a forced tack, then P should also immediately tack because P has to show that they could not fetch the mark + They dont want to be pinned a second time.,

So what's the point of having a 3BL circle if once you enter it on starboard, somebody can enter it after you on port and you have to give them room?  The original post said that he had entered the circle on starboard and then a port tacker entered the circle after him.

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29 minutes ago, WCB said:

So what's the point of having a 3BL circle if once you enter it on starboard, somebody can enter it after you on port and you have to give them room?  The original post said that he had entered the circle on starboard and then a port tacker entered the circle after him.

Lots of people misunderstand giving room and keeping clear. When a boat must give room to another boat it doesn't remove the onus of keeping clear - all other rules still apply.

The difference between a top mark rounding and a bottom is that an inside boat at the bottom is a windward boat and can be forced out of the mark rounding if they don't have room. At the top they are leeward and even without room, windward must keep clear. In this case the Port boat does not have room, but after tacking SB must keep clear.

What the rule here achieves is it prevents Port from tacking in the zone then luffing someone into a tack off the layline, but only if they are Fetching the mark after the tack. (Used to be if SB was fetching...)

People mention using it to force a tack, which hardly ever works. But I have used it very effectively to underlay the mark, then luff up and use momentum to carry the boat around. Because I wasn't fetching, I can force a windward boat to luff up and let me in!

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1 hour ago, WCB said:

So what's the point of having a 3BL circle if once you enter it on starboard, somebody can enter it after you on port and you have to give them room?  The original post said that he had entered the circle on starboard and then a port tacker entered the circle after him.

You don't have to give them room, you do have to keep clear, and if they force you above close hauled they break R18.3

For a windward mark

If you come into the circle on stb, and on the layline (on a close hauled tack), then they are screwed. because if they get in your way at all, you will have to luff above close hauled.

It is only if you overstand the mark and leave space for them to tack underneath you on the layline that they can do so without fouling.

Think of it this way, why should a port tacker who judges the layline perfectly have to go round the back of you when you overstood the mark, and left a big old gap for them to tack into.

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32 minutes ago, blackensign said:

People mention using it to force a tack, which hardly ever works. But I have used it very effectively to underlay the mark, then luff up and use momentum to carry the boat around. Because I wasn't fetching, I can force a windward boat to luff up and let me in!

If you can pass the mark without tacking you were fetching.

If you use momentum to carry the boat around the mark (without changing tack)  then your were fetching all along, see the definition. If you change tack you are even more screwed as you were on port :).

 

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16 hours ago, blackensign said:

Lots of people misunderstand giving room and keeping clear.

True. But if uncertain, the simple rule is to give room to boats inside, and to round the mark as tightly as possible.

When a boat must give room to another boat it doesn't remove the onus of keeping clear - all other rules still apply.

but see rule 21. If a boat is taking room, she is exonerated from breach of most keep clear rules.

The difference between a top mark rounding and a bottom is that an inside boat at the bottom is a windward boat and can be forced out of the mark rounding if they don't have room.

??? At the bottom mark, the inside boat is owed room as soon as she enters the 3bl zone. If you are leeward and she is windward, you MUST PROVIDE ROOM, and you cannot close the door and force her outside the mark. Same applies to a port/ starboard at the downwind gate rounder on stbd. The boat on starboard must provide room to the inside port boat.

 

At the top they are leeward and even without room, windward must keep clear. In this case the Port boat does not have room, but after tacking SB must keep clear.

What the rule here achieves is it prevents Port from tacking in the zone then luffing someone into a tack off the layline, but only if they are Fetching the mark after the tack. (Used to be if SB was fetching...)

People mention using it to force a tack, which hardly ever works. But I have used it very effectively to underlay the mark, then luff up and use momentum to carry the boat around. Because I wasn't fetching, I can force a windward boat to luff up and let me in!

If you had tacked in the 3Bl into that position, then what you describe would be a breach of Rule 18.3 as John describes.

 

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12 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

but see rule 21. If a boat is taking room, she is exonerated from breach of most keep clear rules.

CASE 70

"An inside overlapped windward boat that is entitled to mark-room from the outside boat must keep clear of the outside boat and, if she is sailing outside of the mark-room to which she is entitled, she is not exonerated if she fails to keep clear."

12 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

??? At the bottom mark, the inside boat is owed room as soon as she enters the 3bl zone. If you are leeward and she is windward, you MUST PROVIDE ROOM, and you cannot close the door and force her outside the mark.

18.2 (b)

"If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room."

If you were clear ahead then you can indeed shut the door on a boat that then becomes overlapped to windward inside the zone as she was never entitled to room as in fact she has to give you room!

On 2/06/2017 at 8:20 AM, JohnMB said:

If you can pass the mark without tacking you were fetching.

If you use momentum to carry the boat around the mark (without changing tack)  then your were fetching all along, see the definition. If you change tack you are even more screwed as you were on port :).

 

Re-reading the definition, I think you are right.
I had understood fetching to be only if you'd made the mark without the manoeuvre, but indeed it states 'without tacking' so if you can pinch up then you would have been fetching and can't take S above close hauled...

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Thank you. I have learned a lot as a result of this post.

Related question. Similar to the OP,  we don't have any protests or after race rules discussions since we are meant to be a 'friendly' racing club...

Consider 3 boats approaching a windward mark to be left to port.

2 boats enter zone on starboard tack, (S1 & S2).

3rd boat (P) ducks S1 and tacks from port to starboard on S2's lee bow, but within the 3BL circle (P has no mark room).

S1 is sailing below the starboard layline, but has earned mark room that allows her to pinch above CHC to make the mark.

When S1 pinches, she slows, resulting in P overtaking her. Since S1 is both leeward, and has earned mark room, P is forced to also sail above CHC to avoid her.

P is promptly "sandwiched" between S1, (leeward boat to port with mark room) and a S2, (windward boat to starboard that P isn't supposed to take above CHC).

S1 rounds the mark cleanly, with only inches of mark room from P.

There is mild objection from S2 that P forced her to sail above CHC as they (P & S2) tap rails, (no damage).

Since there was contact between P & S2, I guess there was a foul, but I'm not sure who fouled who.

On one hand, S2 was right. P did not have rights to take S2 above CHC. If P is allowed to do this because she is forced to keep clear of S1, P is effectively getting mark room even though she tacked in the zone.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what P's options were when S1 pinched to shoot the mark. P had nowhere to go at that point. 

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2 hours ago, Haddockjr said:

 

Thank you. I have learned a lot as a result of this post.

Related question. Similar to the OP,  we don't have any protests or after race rules discussions since we are meant to be a 'friendly' racing club...

Consider 3 boats approaching a windward mark to be left to port.

2 boats enter zone on starboard tack, (S1 & S2).

3rd boat (P) ducks S1 and tacks from port to starboard on S2's lee bow, but within the 3BL circle (P has no mark room).

Correct

P is now clear astern, or overlapped to windward of S1 and required to keep clear of S1 (rules 12 or 11).

S2 is overlapped to windward of P and required to keep clear of P (rule 11).

S1 is sailing below the starboard layline, but has earned mark room that allows her to pinch above CHC to make the mark.

Not having become overlapped to leeward from clear astern within two of her hull lengths of another boat on the same tack, and thus not subject to rule 17, S1 has no limitations on sailing as high as she chooses.  It doesn’t depend on her having mark-room.

When S1 pinches, she slows, resulting in P overtaking her. Since S1 is both leeward, and has earned mark room, P is forced to also sail above CHC to avoid her.

P could have chosen to start sheets, slow and fall astern of S1.

P is promptly "sandwiched" between S1, (leeward boat to port with mark room) and a S2, (windward boat to starboard that P isn't supposed to take above CHC).

Yes, but S2, overlapped to windward on the same tack is required to keep clear of P (rule 11).

S1 rounds the mark cleanly, with only inches of mark room from P.

There is mild objection from S2 that P forced her to sail above CHC as they (P & S2) tap rails, (no damage).

Since there was contact between P & S2, I guess there was a foul, but I'm not sure who fouled who.

There was contact.

S2, overlapped to windward on the same tack did not keep clear of P to leeward.  S2 broke rule 11.

If P caused S to sail above close hauled to avoid her, then P broke rule 18.3.  Even if S1 pinching to shoot the mark compelled P, in turn, to pinch into S2, S1 broke no rule by pinching and P is not eligible to be exonerated for breaking rule 18.3 by rule 64.1( a ).

 As long as S2 had space to windward to keep clear of P, P’s breach of rule 18.3 did not compel S2 to break rule 11, and S2 is not exonerated for breaking rule 11 by rule 64.1( a ).

If S2 chose to hit P so as not to sail above close hauled, and did not actually sail above close hauled at all, then P does not break rule 18.3.

Assuming that there was nothing to windward of S2, to prevent her changing course away from P, then S2 did not avoid contact with P when it was reasonably possible to do so, and S2 broke rule 14.

S2, being neither right of way boat nor entitled to room or mark-room is not elibible to be exonerated for breaking rule 14 even though there was no damage or injury.

Assuming that P could not sail any lower than she was because of S1, overlapped inside her, it was not reasonably possible for P to avoid contact with S2 and P did not break rule 14.

In summary:

·         S2 broke rules 11 and 14:  had there been a valid protest S2 should have been disqualified.

·         P probably broke rule 18.3:  had there been a valid protest, P should have been disqualified.

On one hand, S2 was right. P did not have rights to take S2 above CHC.

No, S2 was NOT right:  she was required to keep clear of P and avoid contact.  This she did not do.

If P is allowed to do this because she is forced to keep clear of S1, P is effectively getting mark room even though she tacked in the zone.

P is not ‘allowed’ to do this:  if P causes S2 to sail above close hauled to avoid her P breaks rule 18.3.

On the other hand, I'm not sure what P's options were when S1 pinched to shoot the mark. P had nowhere to go at that point. 

As suggested above, P had the option of slowing down and backing out of trouble or promptly taking a rule 44 penalty.

 

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On 6/1/2017 at 10:18 AM, Jolly Roger said:

Ok, thanks for the explanation(s), that makes sense.  We don't have any protests or after race rules discussions since we are meant to be a 'friendly' racing club...

I have previously avoided port approaches but this opens up some new tactical options.  Cheers.

can we please get rid of the notion that 'friendly' clubs don't have and shouldn't have protests? Trust me when I say that if you don't have a protest mechanism in your SI's, one of these days some fucktard in your fleet is going to do something completely stupid, hit another boat, and cause damage or injury. Then you'll throw together a protest committee and probably do something well intentioned but procedurally wrong. That means that when said Tard appeals his protest loss to your regional group, the first thing they will do is say that there was never a valid hearing, which means you'll have to go through the embarrassment of re-hearing the protest, probably with a couple regional judges on the panel to make sure you don't screw it up procedurally again. When Tard still loses the protest and appeals it to US Sailing, you'll have wondered where the last two years of your life went and why 1 clueless asshole has forced a club to change a process that worked fine for the previous 20 years. Don't ask how I know this.

So please.. PLEASE be prepared to handle protests. And protest when someone does something stupid, or at least figure out where they're having their post-race beer and go have a friendly chat. Otherwise, no one's going to learn, and the subtle changes from one edition of the rules to another will never be absorbed.

 

P.S. The appendix T arbitration process can be an excellent method to avoid the room and still teach the rules. 

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56 minutes ago, ryley said:
On 6/2/2017 at 0:18 AM, Jolly Roger said:

Ok, thanks for the explanation(s), that makes sense.  We don't have any protests or after race rules discussions since we are meant to be a 'friendly' racing club...

I have previously avoided port approaches but this opens up some new tactical options.  Cheers.

can we please get rid of the notion that 'friendly' clubs don't have and shouldn't have protests? Trust me when I say that if you don't have a protest mechanism in your SI's, one of these days some fucktard in your fleet is going to do something completely stupid, hit another boat, and cause damage or injury. Then you'll throw together a protest committee and probably do something well intentioned but procedurally wrong. That means that when said Tard appeals his protest loss to your regional group, the first thing they will do is say that there was never a valid hearing, which means you'll have to go through the embarrassment of re-hearing the protest, probably with a couple regional judges on the panel to make sure you don't screw it up procedurally again. When Tard still loses the protest and appeals it to US Sailing, you'll have wondered where the last two years of your life went and why 1 clueless asshole has forced a club to change a process that worked fine for the previous 20 years. Don't ask how I know this.

So please.. PLEASE be prepared to handle protests. And protest when someone does something stupid, or at least figure out where they're having their post-race beer and go have a friendly chat. Otherwise, no one's going to learn, and the subtle changes from one edition of the rules to another will never be absorbed.

 

P.S. The appendix T arbitration process can be an excellent method to avoid the room and still teach the rules. 

You don't need to write anything extra into your SI:  the RRS Part 5 Section A, rules 60 to 67 provides a complete default procedure for protests, and Appendix M provides a fairly comprehensive guide for the conduct of protest committees.

But I certainly agree that fostering a 'no protest' culture in your club will eventually lead to tears, either through growing dissatisfaction and bad feeling among members where rule-breaking goes unpunished, or a big blow-up over a damage/injury incident.

Protesting is part of the game.  Use it intelligently.

By all means encourage rules observance by introducing Post Race Penalties etc as shown in Appendix T, but if boats disagree about a possible breach of the rules, the way to clear the air is with a valid protest.

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19 hours ago, Brass said:

If P caused S2 to sail above close hauled to avoid her, then P broke rule 18.3.  Even if S1 pinching to shoot the mark compelled P, in turn, to pinch into S2, S1 broke no rule by pinching and P is not eligible to be exonerated for breaking rule 18.3 by rule 64.1( a ).

This ^^ is the part that I did not understand.

I now understand that exoneration (under 64.1 (a)) is only available to a boat that was fouled. P was not fouled by S1. If P forced S2 to sail above CHC, regardless of reason, she should have done turns or been DSQ'd.

Thank you

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2 minutes ago, Haddockjr said:

I now understand that exoneration (under 64.1 (a)) is only available to a boat that was fouled. P was not fouled by S1. If P forced S2 to sail above CHC, regardless of reason, she should have done turns or been DSQ'd.

Glad you got the idea about exoneration under rule 64.1( a ).

The game is sailing, not baseball, not chicken-raising.  There are no fouls.  A boat either breaks a rule or it does not break a rule.

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On 7/6/2017 at 8:42 PM, Brass said:

The game is sailing, not baseball, not chicken-raising.  There are no fouls.  A boat either breaks a rule or it does not break a rule.

;) Thank you. I realy appreciate your attention to detail.

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2 hours ago, Haddockjr said:
On 7/7/2017 at 11:42 AM, Brass said:

The game is sailing, not baseball, not chicken-raising.  There are no fouls.  A boat either breaks a rule or it does not break a rule.

;) Thank you. I realy appreciate your attention to detail.

If you want to have an intelligent and useful discussion about the rules, use the language of the rules, with care and precision, not sloppy slang and jargon.

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