Savage2288

Brand new and totally ignorant

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Hi y'all. I won't ask you to go easy on me. I have a feeling it would be futile. I am just getting started , just picked up my sailboat yesterday, and it was suggested that I post here rather than in Sailing Anarchy. I have purchased a 1972 Clipper Marine 21 that seems to be in serviceable condition to get started with except for the chain plates need some attention and I'm scared of screwing things up worse. No one in my area seems to know what the hell a chain plate is so I decided to ask here since lurking in forums is typically where I have found the most helpful info anyway.

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I've got some pictures but it says they are too large to upload. Not sure what to do.

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I want to fix them but I am scared of making something worse. Am I even posting this in the right place?

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I honestly don't know yet because there is a piece of trim in the way and um.....I have never attempted repairs.....but I'm smart.

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I think where to post is somewhat random on this unmoderated forum.   Cruising Anarchy tends to dis little guys playing in small water or marina hopping.   Sailing Anarchy doesn't understand a boat that doesn't exist to race.   I exist to annoy both, but respect the collective knowledge.  

Accessing them will be your first step.   Your photo shows the deck casting but not below the hull / deck seam.   Somehow the load is generally transferred to the hull  to avoid pulling the deck off.   Are there visible bolts where they are fastened to the hull?   Is there a bulkhead in the cabin the load was transferred to?    

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7 minutes ago, Lark said:

I think where to post is somewhat random on this unmoderated forum.   Cruising Anarchy tends to dis little guys playing in small water or marina hopping.   Sailing Anarchy doesn't understand a boat that doesn't exist to race.   I exist to annoy both, but respect the collective knowledge.  

Accessing them will be your first step.   Your photo shows the deck casting but not below the hull / deck seam.   Somehow the load is generally transferred to the hull  to avoid pulling the deck off.   Are there visible bolts where they are fastened to the hull?   Is there a bulkhead in the cabin the load was transferred to?    

OK, I am right now as we type bullying my husband to come out to the boat with me and tell me how to get the trim out of the way so I can see what it looks like below deck.

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2 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

You could consider just going to external chainplates. That's simple and easy.

I like simple and easy. where does one acquire these external chain plates?

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should I be quoting each post when I answer it? or just answering ? I don't know how to not be annoying.

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7 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

You could consider just going to external chainplates. That's simple and easy.

+1

Cheaper too, and stronger, and if you make the bottom end pointy and end right above the water line you even get a lightning ground out of the deal. You seem to know about this stuff, have you thought of working in the marine industry?

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I will give you 5 rupees for the boat and trailer.  You really should post a picture of it.  And name it Rimas.

Rajinder

I can break that but in this case I don't have to.

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I'm almost tempted to say give the boat back and start again after seeing those chainplates. Can you post pictures of the rest of the boat?

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Do you know if it is the original rig? Looks like the shrouds were not pulling in line with the chain plate but the chainplates don't seem to have moved upward. I would look inside if there are signs of movement/fatigue/delamination. If not I wouldn't worry too much, just caulk it with some sealant and monitor it very closely.

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inside and just a pic of it sitting there

tmp_11096-18880170_1460845693959163_2045400395190383720_o352506870.jpg

tmp_11096-18879910_1460845017292564_3209275463860869483_o-657712712.jpg

tmp_11096-18880130_1460846493959083_9167127520285861001_o15684626.jpg

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I'd pull the chainplates out. patch up the hole nice and clean. Then bolt on external chainplates. It's going to be hard to seal that hole the way it comes out of that radiused edge.

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1 minute ago, Bob Perry said:

I'd pull the chainplates out. patch up the hole nice and clean. Then bolt on external chainplates. It's going to be hard to seal that hole the way it comes out of that radiused edge.

THIS. this is what I'm worried about. the radiused edge thing. yes.

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Tighten the bolts, caulk with 4200.   Taco is right, you are fine.

Edit.  I won't dispute Bob on boat construction.   But I think he'd agree that can be a winter project if you want to sail.     

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Yes, and you should be. It's a very oidd detail. Normally an inboard chainplate will come thru the flat deck where you can fit a gasket plate over the chainplate so that you can squeeze bedding compound under the plate and into the hole. Hard to do as you have it now.

 

If you want to go external I can spec the exact size and fastenings for you.

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25 minutes ago, Rajinder said:

I will give you 5 rupees for the boat and trailer.  You really should post a picture of it.  And name it Rimas.

Rajinder

I can break that but in this case I don't have to.

no to your rupees. I'm kind of scared to tell y'all what I want to name it because y'all will laugh =/

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Just now, Bob Perry said:

Yes, and you should be. It's a very oidd detail. Normally an inboard chainplate will come thru the flat deck where you can fit a gasket plate over the chainplate so that you can squeeze bedding compound under the plate and into the hole. Hard to do as you have it now.

 

If you want to go external I can spec the exact size and fastenings for you.

I don't know what "spec the exact size and fastenings" means but it sounds helpful. I just want to take really good care of it.

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Lark;

I agree, the chainplate is fine It's sealing that gap that bothers me. How would you propose doing that? I am not a builder. I draw boats. I am tool phobic.

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Savage:

I will tell you the exact size of s.s. strap you need and how many bolts and what diameter they should be. I have a good friend who knows all about this kind of stuff. I trust him.

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3 minutes ago, Lark said:

Tighten the bolts, calk with 4200.   Taco is right, you are fine.

Edit.  I won't dispute Bob on boat construction.   But I think he'd agree that can be a winter project if you want to sail.     

this would be swell as long as it won't hurt my boat. I would like to get started but not at the expense of rot later.

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Just now, Bob Perry said:

Savage:

I will tell you the exact size of s.s. strap you need and how many bolts and what diameter they should be. I have a good friend who knows all about this kind of stuff. I trust him.

 The straps themselves can't be reused?

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So long as the water isn't getting into any wood you should be fine with the 4200. I'm just not sure you can fill that big a gap. I've never used the stuff.

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Savage:

Yes, those straps look fine. You can reuse them. You would need a 1/8" s.s. backing plate on the inside or you could use over sized washers inside.

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1 minute ago, Bob Perry said:

So long as the water isn't getting into any wood you should be fine with the 4200. I'm just not sure you can fill that big a gap. I've never used the stuff.

I mean......I know the hole goes through wood.... doesn't that mean that the water will get to the wood? or are y'all saying the 4200 will protect the wood?

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I don't know. The wood has to be sealed by something. I'm not sure why there is wood there. Does the deck have a wood core? Or is it just in that toe rail? Hard to tell without being there.

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I'm sorry y'all, I'm on my phone and having a hard time keeping up with all the replies. THANKS SO MUCH for everyone's input and help!

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so what about using a shim like you use when you frame in a door on a house? put some 4200 and then wedge in a shim to take up the space and then put some more 4200. then when winter comes I can put on external chain plates?

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Savage - just so you know, Bob is an internationally known and respected designer, check Wikipedia for Robert Perry. He is also a class guy that will freely give of his time even when someone really attractive asks for help and then mentions getting her husband.  

you want to keep water out of all things not needing water, it looks like the cracks develop because of flexing. Before sealing I would try to see if it's dry - use a shop vac over it and see if it pulls out water.  I have used acetone poured into wet areas, let it dry (don't vacuum up anything flammable) and then do the vacuum trick again.  

If you can stop the flexing and seal it to keep out the moisture if should be fine.  Bob knows way more about boat design than any of us and there are a few guys here who build boats that know more than fixing them.  Not necessary to respond to every post, especially mine

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2 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

That sounds fine. Leaks around chainplates are very commonplace. The 4200 will seal the wood.

awesome! that makes me feel a lot better

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I'm going to call my friend at the boatyard and ask him if 4200 is the best goo for the job. I'll get back to you on that.

 

OK, my friend said that plugging the gap with 4200 will get you through a  season or two but it's not a permanent fix. He likes the idea of going external. and fiberglasssing up the holes.

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2 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

Why don't you just PM Bob for an engineer? Spend a few bucks and save lots of money later?

Because I told her to spend her boat bucks making sure the shrouds are trustworthy on the competing SA forum.   :D   She bought the boat on a budget after all.

What is the white block just in front of the chainplate on the 'inside' photo?   It looks like something used to screw into it.   tmp_11096-18879910_1460845017292564_3209275463860869483_o-657712712.jpg

 

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59 minutes ago, Savage2288 said:

should I be quoting each post when I answer it? or just answering ? I don't know how to not be annoying.

As Bob says, annoying doesn't matter much, though you get more constructive responses if you aren't... quote as necessary for clarity, i.e. when you are responding to a specific point.  In this forum only the most recent level gets quoted; if you want to quote earlier quotes as well you can highlight everything you want, hover, and click the 'quote this' flag.  Sometimes there are posts refering to who-knows-what, where a quote would be necessary.

Some people will not quote, just refer to the poster to whom they are responding, e.g. "Savage, I am saying..."

No right or wrong if you can get your point across.

No reply required to this post!

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I'm sorry,  I will stop trying to respond to each individual post. Forum-ing is hard ;)

Bob: Thank you very much!

d'ranger: the name actually rings a bell now that you mention it.

Austin: pm him for an engineer? I don't know what you mean....I'm sorry

 

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I have no idea what that block is for. I'm doing this as a freebie for a new CA guy. Just trying to be helpful. Just passing some time waiting for the printer to deliver my scans of STARBUCK.

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3 minutes ago, Lark said:

Because I told her to spend her boat bucks making sure the shrouds are trustworthy on the competing SA forum.   :D   She bought the boat on a budget after all.

What is the white block just in front of the chainplate on the 'inside' photo?   It looks like something used to screw into it.   tmp_11096-18879910_1460845017292564_3209275463860869483_o-657712712.jpg

 

yes the white block was mounted there with glue to screw a lightweight trim piece to

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Bob: I will definitely switch to external chain plates asap and fiber glass the holes in. that sounds like an excellent solution . Thanks for your help! Do I need new chain plates to move out them on the outside ? or can I use the existing ones? new is better right ?

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Savage, can you post a close-up photo of the outside hull where the chainplate bolts come through?  We want to make sure the bolts are OK, but I'm not seeing obvious rust stains so they may be fine.  Stainless can get non-rusting cracks though, so it might be a good idea to remove and inspect those.

4200 is a nice adhesive sealant.  It has a little flex to it, which is what you want.  It will fill gaps, up to a point. 

And here on Cruising Anarchy we are generally friendly to everyone who has a good attitude (or an entertaining bad one).  Your particular boat, experience, or sailing style are no big deal.

 

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1 minute ago, valis said:

Savage, can you post a close-up photo of the outside hull where the chainplate bolts come through?  We want to make sure the bolts are OK, but I'm not seeing obvious rust stains so they may be fine.  Stainless can get non-rusting cracks though, so it might be a good idea to remove and inspect those.

4200 is a nice adhesive sealant.  It has a little flex to it, which is what you want.  It will fill gaps, up to a point. 

And here on Cruising Anarchy we are generally friendly to everyone who has a good attitude (or an entertaining bad one).  Your particular boat, experience, or sailing style are no big deal.

 

sure thing, hang on because I have to fix the image size before I can post it . Thank you :)

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41 minutes ago, Savage2288 said:

no to your rupees. I'm kind of scared to tell y'all what I want to name it because y'all will laugh =/

The sillier the better I say.  Trust me, there are some doosies out there.

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And you probably don't absolutely need to go to external chainplates.  Inspection and gap-filling sealant will get you through a season or two, giving you time to figure out your master plan -- I guarantee you there will be other things to fix.

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now that I'm looking at it.....how will an external chain plate work with that lip that sticks out?

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tmp_11096-18836717_1460897433953989_2428149102960184253_o-393267804.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Ripper said:

The sillier the better I say.  Trust me, there are some doosies out there.

Baked Alaska

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Nope, with that lip external will not work. You'd have to shim the chainplate out and that would look odd. I did not see that lip aka hull to deck joint before.

Stay internal and you'll be fine.

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Might be better to leave the chainplate position where it is, do some glass repair/reinforcement around the opening, and find or fashion cover plates that can be bedded down around the chainplate over the opening.

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OK I will just have to keep an eye on it. darn. That really sounded like a good solution.

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poor little wonky sailboat.

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30 minutes ago, Savage2288 said:

Austin: pm him for an engineer? I don't know what you mean....I'm sorry

 

Personal message. It's the mail icon in the upper right.

Bob knows people.

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Oooooh. now I just feel silly. I knew that. I don't have "engineer " money. I tried to buy the soundest thing I could afford and the rest will have to be prayers and sweat.

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My take on it since we now seem to have adequate info and pics.

 

Knock the bolts out and pull the chain plates.

 

Take a very close look for signs of cracking and corrosion on the plates. If it doubt, take them to your local engineering/fabrication shop and have them make a new set based on the old.  316 stainless.

Take the bolts to the local bolt guy and get same Again 316 Stainless. Throw away

 

Look at the hull, you could grind internally and add a few layers of mat and chop tapering and staggering each layer.  It will be polyester resin. Easy but messy work.

Cut a new slot with a tighter fit. seal with sika.

 

It will now outlast you and religion.

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4 minutes ago, Savage2288 said:

Oooooh. now I just feel silly. I knew that. I don't have "engineer " money. I tried to buy the soundest thing I could afford and the rest will have to be prayers and sweat.

 

It was just tongue in cheek. Sorry for the confusion.

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My sense of humor is about the only sense I've got left lol

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9 minutes ago, Savage2288 said:

OK I will just have to keep an eye on it. darn. That really sounded like a good solution.

 Is this a 'shoebox and lid' construction anybody?   You might be able to slide a chainplate replacement under the rubrail (the lip), but the photo shows the seam ends just inches away from the chainplate so a screw is probably in the wrong spot.  If you ever replace the rubrail that would be a good time to explore moving the chainplates.  

39978_L1.jpg?interpolation=lanczos-none&downsize=450px:*

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9 minutes ago, Savage2288 said:

OK I will just have to keep an eye on it. darn. That really sounded like a good solution.

You will be fine if you monitor it. I suspect that the rig of the boat has been modified at some point.

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8 minutes ago, cbs said:

My take on it since we now seem to have adequate info and pics.

 

Knock the bolts out and pull the chain plates.

 

Take a very close look for signs of cracking and corrosion on the plates. If it doubt, take them to your local engineering/fabrication shop and have them make a new set based on the old.  316 stainless.

Take the bolts to the local bolt guy and get same Again 316 Stainless. Throw away

 

Look at the hull, you could grind internally and add a few layers of mat and chop tapering and staggering each layer.  It will be polyester resin. Easy but messy work.

Cut a new slot with a tighter fit. seal with sika.

 

It will now outlast you and religion.

that sounds terrifying . it also sounds like what my dad was trying to suggest to me last night. like just beef everything up and make the hole smaller again?

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cbs mentioned sika - is that sikaflex? Never thought about it for boats but it gets specked in for crack repair in concrete pavement. I used some to repair some cracks in my driveway and patio and years later it is still indestructable.  Can now get it at the  Home depot places. 

edit: anything not boat specific costs a fraction of boat parts. 

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Thanks Panoramix. that's encouraging !

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Just now, Bob Perry said:

Sometimes we call that a "coffee can" hull to deck joint. If I am interpreting the photos correctly.

Please expand.  I'm familiar with outward flange  (My Chrysler Bucc, subject to docking damage), What I've heard called shoebox and lid, where the deck overlaps the hull, like my general boat's R-22, which looks very similar to this, and have read about inside flange (was this what you used on your carbon cutters?).   http://wavetrain.net/boats-a-gear/317-fiberglass-boatbuilding-hull-deck-joints

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my dad mentioned something "flix" I wonder if that stuff CBS mentioned is what my dad was trying to suggest . I tried to look it up but decided I must be spelling it wrong.

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2 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

cbs mentioned sika - is that sikaflex? Never thought about it for boats but it gets specked in for crack repair in concrete pavement. I used some to repair some cracks in my driveway and patio and years later it is still indestructable.  Can now get it at the  Home depot places. 

For what it's worth, I've heard of Sikaflex being used on boats on many occasions.  It's yet another polyurethane-based sealant.

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Lark:

On the carbon cutters we really don;t have a hull to deck joint at all. The deck sits on the bulkheads and internal structure. Then it's all bonded together inside and out with carbon fiber and epoxy. The idea s to make it monocoque and avoid having a joint.

 

With your type of coffee can joint used by builders like Mirage and my last boat an Albin build also I think al the Catalinas are built this way. It's a goo joint and used so much because it';s trouble fee.

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how bad is it that I glanced at the Wikipedia page and now I remember who Bob is and I suddenly feel the need to address him as "Mr. Perry" ??? lol

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1 minute ago, valis said:

For what it's worth, I've heard of Sikaflex being used on boats on many occasions.  It's yet another polyurethane-based sealant.

This is one of those huh moments. Works great on concrete cracks, has to be strong and flexible and bond water tight and last forever. Just never occurred to me to use for anything else.  Is it better? but I do know on big contracts engineers require that brand.  Reminds me I am not brilliant when I didn't see it.  

 

Savage - just address Bob as Maestro.  

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16 minutes ago, Savage2288 said:

that sounds terrifying . it also sounds like what my dad was trying to suggest to me last night. like just beef everything up and make the hole smaller again?

Not at all.  Just knock the bolts out and inspect.  Repair and/or replace it if stuffed.

This is not reinventing the wheel.

Then its just putting it back together with new bolts and nuts.

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8 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

This is one of those huh moments. Works great on concrete cracks, has to be strong and flexible and bond water tight and last forever. Just never occurred to me to use for anything else.  Is it better? but I do know on big contracts engineers require that brand.  Reminds me I am not brilliant when I didn't see it.  

 

Savage - just address Bob as Maestro.  

 

Sikaflex makes may kinds.  Have a look at say sikaflex-291 for a start.  There are many marine sealants.  Doesn't have to be sika.

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1 minute ago, cbs said:

Then its just putting it back together with new bolts and nuts.

And caulking!

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13 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Lark:

On the carbon cutters we really don;t have a hull to deck joint at all. The deck sits on the bulkheads and internal structure. Then it's all bonded together inside and out with carbon fiber and epoxy. The idea s to make it monocoque and avoid having a joint.

 

 

I would argue that's still a joint bob.

 

 

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Welcome to boat ownership. The chainplates will not be the end of it. The annoying thing about boats is that there's always something that needs doing. The great thing is that there's always something that needs doing. Don't forget to punt the list and just go sailing!

FWIW there's a forum specifically for asking fix-it questions, fix-it-anarchy. You'll get good advice here on CA from a very supportive crowd, feel free to keep doing it. But it's good etiquette to post these kinds of questions over there. And there are people over there who love to nerd out over fixing boats, maybe too much so ;)! You'll get great advice either way. 

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21 minutes ago, valis said:

For what it's worth, I've heard of Sikaflex being used on boats on many occasions.  It's yet another polyurethane-based sealant.

+1. It is flexible which is good for joints like this one where there is a bit of movement.

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Wonder if the gap was caused by a sloppy mast raising experience. Looks like there is a hinged maststep, a bad twist while raising or lowering could have pulled the wrong way on the chainplates. Maybe check the mast step area for damage before you step it.

Other than that just rig it up and seal it and go sailing. I wouldn't do any major reconstruction at this time. Do you plan on trailering often or will you be keeping the mast raised for extended periods?

Interesting looking boat, bless its heart.

 

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27 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Lark:

On the carbon cutters we really don;t have a hull to deck joint at all. The deck sits on the bulkheads and internal structure. Then it's all bonded together inside and out with carbon fiber and epoxy. The idea s to make it monocoque and avoid having a joint.

 

With your type of coffee can joint used by builders like Mirage and my last boat an Albin build also I think al the Catalinas are built this way. It's a goo joint and used so much because it';s trouble fee.

Thanks.   Coffee Can is a new term for me.   I knew your carbon cutters were 'aggressively tabbed' where they really bonded all the bulkheads to the deck along the entire butt joints.   I didn't realize the parts just aligned and this 'tabbing' provided the entire structure.     Sailboats are far from my day job.  

 

27 minutes ago, Savage2288 said:

how bad is it that I glanced at the Wikipedia page and now I remember who Bob is and I suddenly feel the need to address him as "Mr. Perry" ??? lol

Well, if he'd design a trailer launchable (rapid single handed mast stepping) couples pocket cruiser and daysailor I'd call him Maestro.      Carbon of course.     :rolleyes:   (I'm not biased.  Honest.)

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