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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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AndreasE

J/133 heavy air gybe

23 posts in this topic

Quick question hoping that someone familiar with larger J's can help.

(used to sail a J/105 and this was never a problem there as we gybed the aso first in heavy wind and then the main on the next wave/surf, and i had enough power to control it)

The last two weeks we have had massive winds on our local regattas (mid 20 knots to low 30 knots in the puffs). Since we are big boys (and girls) on board we of course always put a asymetric up at the top mark, and other than the occasional dirty takedown there has not been an issue with the kite.

The problem has been the main. With the relatively low gearing on the winches there is not enough time to winch the main in enough to be able to let it out controlled on the new gybe. And we want to avoid the violent mainsail gybes we have had recently. They are fast, but not good for the boat. In one race we even managed to pull apart a block in the traveler system resulting in ball bearings raining on the owner (who was not impressed). Also, these hard gybes are not pretty to watch and forced us into a ugly broach the other day.

We are considering:
-putting an extra person by the mast to pull on the German mainsheet system so that the mainsail trimmer can tail only going into the gybe, but in these heavy winds we'd really prefer not to have extra people up there, especially considering you have to pull with both hands on the sheet to be efficient and the high load on this sheet when the main comes over

or
-winching from both winches going into the gybe. The problem with this is that the person on the new leeward winch is in a pretty tough spot between the rest of the cockpit crew gybing the aso (they have to use the primaries in heavy winds and not the cabintops), and the travller/main coming in very close to the mainsheet winch

 

any tips are highly appreciated

 

Andreas

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I used to race a 122 a lot. We had someone sweating the German mainsheet at the mast, as long as the person up there has their wits about them then they're fine. 

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If they don't then their wits will be smeared all over the deck after the gybe...

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On our 130 we will have two main grinders and one is the main trimmer to control the trav and make the ease as the main comes over.   It's not fast to have to people grinding in the back of the boat for 30 seconds, but it's way faster than destroying some highly loaded bits in a bad jibe.   Centering the boom also stresses the shit out of your leach and can lead to a spectacular wipe out if your trimmer doesn't smoke the sheet on the new board.

Your other option is to get a very strong person on the sheet, time the jibe if possible to take advantage of a surf, then the main can be pulled in 6-8 feet pretty easily  while trimmer tails.   Roll into your jibe on the surf and it's all a ton easier on everyone but the helm.

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You're better to do a chicken gybe. Hoist the jib, drop the kite, tack around, rerun the gear then rehoist the kite.

Or you could just nut up shirley, tell your owner to drive better, and realize that heavy air gybes break stuff sometime. 

/s

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twin grinders...then at least one needs to strip out of the self tailer early and get ready to smoke the sheet....

Also spin trimmer needs to be ready to bleed a bunch of sheet too, and not oversheet in the gybe.  Could set up sheets to do an outside gybe which tends to keep chute from getting oversheeting during the gybe and broaching the boat coming out of the gybe...

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29 minutes ago, Crash said:

twin grinders...then at least one needs to strip out of the self tailer early and get ready to smoke the sheet....

Also spin trimmer needs to be ready to bleed a bunch of sheet too, and not oversheet in the gybe.  Could set up sheets to do an outside gybe which tends to keep chute from getting oversheeting during the gybe and broaching the boat coming out of the gybe...

This is the way we are leaning to. Have a 2nd grimder that is on the new leeward side that grinders until the sail comes over(being really careful not to be in the trajectory of the main sheet and traveller). And then have the main mainsail trimmer on the new windward side, first grinding like a Chris Brittle wannabe and then realeasing lots of sheet.

 

having a guy sweating the German setting system would be nice. But none of us could pull that of 10 in 10 times without falling overboard or getting wacked. Better to break some blocks than to break some crew :-)

 

a

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Jibe the chute first. stay pretty DDW. When the chute loads up on the new jibe, the main will unload a bit and you can just flop it over to the new jibe with out too much of a crash. Then drive goes to the new jibe heading while main sail trimmer follows.

The timing and the drivers ability to hold the boat close to DDW until the main jibes are very important.

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To reduce the shock, use a stretchy line on the traveller. 

Before starting the gybe, drag the traveller to windward until it's almost on the stop, then suck up the excess line on the leeward side and lock it. Then start the gybe. This will help absorb some of the shock.

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Quote

To reduce the shock, use a stretchy line on the traveller. 

I like you, that's a pretty obscure joke you're making there.

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to close of the thread in case someone searches it in the future. We found a way to gybe it without making a mess. So far tested up to 20 ish knots, but should scale to the high end of our windrange

-Changed rope and slow blocks on traveler.
-Redid the mainsheet splice so that it is now continuous again. i.e. no risk of running out of sheet when you release
-coming into the gybe take the sheet out of the self tailer leave only 1-2 turns on the winch.
-Pull like a madman when the sail comes in
-Release fast and controlled as soon as the main comes over

so no need for the slow winching, or someone to jump the german mainsheet or anything fancy or expensive.
I just needed to throw away the winch handle and keep it simple,...

Andreas

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J/133 in 25 knots, gybing was no problem at all for us and we found the boat nice to handle in those conditions. We kept her on her feet and never lost her while others had issues, as you can see here in these great shots from Tom Smeaton. Reasonably experienced crew but not much time on the J/133 and we hadn't all sailed together until a couple of days before this race.

16473636_10202549337571864_5968595035971105518_n.jpg.b9cb8072b8c0cbc545993c4f7133d93c.jpg

16265462_10202509407693642_7263871349704602044_n.jpg.b55d18c8107f4106de562764ca6765a6.jpg

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37 minutes ago, SPORTSCAR said:

J/133 in 25 knots, gybing was no problem at all for us and we found the boat nice to handle in those conditions. We kept her on her feet and never lost her while others had issues, as you can see here in these great shots from Tom Smeaton. Reasonably experienced crew but not much time on the J/133 and we hadn't all sailed together until a couple of days before this race.

16473636_10202549337571864_5968595035971105518_n.jpg.b9cb8072b8c0cbc545993c4f7133d93c.jpg

16265462_10202509407693642_7263871349704602044_n.jpg.b55d18c8107f4106de562764ca6765a6.jpg

Looks like you're rigged for an outside gybe?

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10 minutes ago, RATM said:

Looks like you're rigged for an outside gybe?

In 25 knots, you better believe it. Don't want the chute to bunch up between the luff and the forestay in the gybe. Low risk, high gain.

And we don't have a German main sheet either, just a single fall, direct to each side winch. The boat is J/133 # 2 ex Patriot from Chicago, now in Melbourne Aus.

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1 hour ago, SPORTSCAR said:

In 25 knots, you better believe it. Don't want the chute to bunch up between the luff and the forestay in the gybe. Low risk, high gain.

And we don't have a German main sheet either, just a single fall, direct to each side winch. The boat is J/133 # 2 ex Patriot from Chicago, now in Melbourne Aus.

I agree with you 100%. Do you guys ever set up for inside? If so, what's your cross over on wind speed?

I have sailed on J/105s and J/120s and have never rigged for an outside gybe. There have been times I wish we had.

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Outside set up - 2 guys flat out on the main winches (Sportscar & me!!) - one on the vang - reverse helm thru the gybe - commit! The J133 has a big spade rudder which helps. The challenge in the shots that Sportscar has put up was the relatively flat water - little opportunity to unload the rig on a wave! The boat "having fun" in the photo is Chutzpah - a very experienced outfit!!

Good times!!

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6 hours ago, Couta said:

Outside set up - 2 guys flat out on the main winches (Sportscar & me!!) - one on the vang - reverse helm thru the gybe - commit! The J133 has a big spade rudder which helps. The challenge in the shots that Sportscar has put up was the relatively flat water - little opportunity to unload the rig on a wave! The boat "having fun" in the photo is Chutzpah - a very experienced outfit!!

Good times!!

Couta that was Corin and yourself on the main, I had a bit on trimming that kite.

Also note Sorro in the top pic above with the flappy white chute, similarly experienced and similarly bent out of shape. Good times indeed.

snip_20170125113718.png.978493388b356ff566417921f639eb8d.png596d9a64c4364_IMG_6118(1).thumb.JPG.b1b273cbfc54257eb6bd99acb1278ea2.JPG

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Yep... you're spot on Sportscar...Corin backing up main and you trimming the bag... Moose on trim, Box in the pit, LowStressa spinning the wheel of fortune...and don't we luv it when the owner wears the Lirakis...onya LR!!    And as for Sorro & Co.....a regatta best forgotten!

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2 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

 

Also note Sorro in the top pic above with the flappy white chute, similarly experienced and similarly bent out of shape. 

 

that'll be the wonderful Sydney36 rudder.  Surprising they didn't see it floating out the back of the boat after that.

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1 hour ago, duncan (the other one) said:

that'll be the wonderful Sydney36 rudder.  Surprising they didn't see it floating out the back of the boat after that.

Sydney 36 rudder on his Cookson 40?

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1 hour ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Sydney 36 rudder on his Cookson 40?

oh -- didn't know he'd sized up

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3 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

oh -- didn't know he'd sized up

Syd 36 Philosophers Club went to Hobart more than a year ago and was actually racing in the same event. Sorro's Cookson 40 is ex Akatea

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