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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
    • B.J. Porter

      Moderation Team Change   06/16/2017

      After fifteen years of volunteer moderation at SA, I will no longer be part of the moderation team. The decision to step aside is mine, and has been some time in the works but we did not wish to announce it in advance for a number of reasons. It's been fun, but I need my time back for other purposes now. The Underdawg admin account will not be monitored until further notice, as I will be relinquishing control of it along with my administrative privileges. Zapata will continue on as a moderator, and any concerns or issues can be directed to that account or to the Editor until further notice. Anyone interested in helping moderate the forums should reach out to Scot by sending a PM to the Editor account. Please note that I am not leaving the community, I am merely stepping aside from Admin responsibilities and privileges on the site.
d2ba

Will Team New Zealand change the current format of the America's Cup should they win

173 posts in this topic

If Team NZ win the Americas Cup do you think format will change? thoughts?

Personally would like to see some major changes 

1: Scrap the current format and return to tradition monohulls or a much bigger Cat more sailors on board ---perhaps create  a new cup for the smaller cats --Rolex Cup? 

2: Sailors must be citizens of country of challenge

3: Boatbuilders must be based in country of challenge

4: Much longer races (30-40 mins minimum) 

5:  Close loophole for rogue challenges outside the event-  e.g. Oracle vs Alinghi 2010 .

 

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1. I am fairly sure we won't be returning to the traditional monohull, or even change class from the AC50s very much. It seem to me the ACWS is a reasonable driver of interest so they may keep that, but farm it out somewhat to the challenger of record. There is nothing (that I'm aware of) stopping the challengers from producing their own build-up circuit.

2. I've read somewhere they're keen on more prescriptive citizenship requirements;

3. I've not seen anything where they say they're keen to limit boatbuilding. The industry back home might have some strong submissions on that topic.

4. They haven't said anything about longer races that I've seen. I like these shorter races. As I've said elsewhere, I like the idea of being able to watch two of three races and get two starts and two finishes before, say, having to go off to work or go to sleep or whatever. It's more versatile than the old long races that have more of a chance of turning into processions anyway.

5. I don't think those loopholes are going to be closed. It's just a case of keeping the CoR engagement process super-tight.

 

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Ashby has been working on a plan with Spithill to deliver the cheapest AC for next cycle..... One Australia may be able to afford to be part of. :D

 

 

IMG_9711.JPG

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14 minutes ago, Indio said:

Rumours of foiling 60-footer monos for AC36 in Auckland :ph34r:

Keep that rumour going!

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3 hours ago, d2ba said:

If Team NZ win the Americas Cup do you think format will change? thoughts?

Personally would like to see some major changes 

1: Scrap the current format and return to tradition monohulls or a much bigger Cat more sailors on board ---perhaps create  a new cup for the smaller cats --Rolex Cup? 

2: Sailors must be citizens of country of challenge

3: Boatbuilders must be based in country of challenge

4: Much longer races (30-40 mins minimum) 

5:  Close loophole for rogue challenges outside the event-  e.g. Oracle vs Alinghi 2010 .

 

1: Unlikely these type of boats are probably too good to give up. Expect changes to the scheduling and things like the ACWS both of which were pretty poorly organised this time.  They might choose not to be in the challenger series but who knows now that the precendent has been set. Also expect tweaks to open the rules the bit to allow Kiwi innovation to continue to push.

2: 50% Pretty sure absolutely no one at ETNZ has any interest in asking Glenn Ashby not to sail.

3: Nope, too many economic gains from New Zealand given that is where everyone gets their shit built, even more so if we are hosting!

4: Yes, hopefully longer legs and no stupid stadium finish!

5: You can't that is bound up in the Deed of Gift for when challenger and defender can't agree on the format.

 

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2 hours ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

Ashby has been working on a plan with Spithill to deliver the cheapest AC for next cycle..... One Australia may be able to afford to be part of. :D

 

 

IMG_9711.JPG

You're taking the piss but ironically the next cycle is  far more Aussie team friendly than the last.  I think the Oatleys expected all the Aussies in the fleet (who they'd basically funded to Olympic gold)  to drop their contracts and rush to sail for 'Stralia.  Consenses seems to be that if Oracle loose they're out, If ETNZ loose they're out and there  is a 50:50 chance or Artemis being back.  That frees up a huge  pool of Australian talent to build a team around.  Especial when you include Fresh and co from the Oracle design team.  Assuming ETNZ with you can be sure they'll take steps to minimize the cost of competing.  Now all you need is a rich Australian that gives a shit (and that is the hard bit).

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I think we'll see incremental changes from what we have now. A lot of what we're seeing is there with good reason. The London agreement may not be binding but it is a starting point in terms of what 3 of the teams need in order to bridge the gap to the next Cup. If Aukland will mean a longer cycle then it's even more important that there is ACWS racing in between.

In terms of building the number of teams they'd be foolish to make radical changes to the basic parameters of the boat. Aspiring teams need kit they can buy up and get in the game. They can't do that if there are radical rule changes to the basic dimensions of the boat. Does look like they need a smaller wing for when it's breeze on though.

Course configuration may change, although the narrow course does remove the "bang a corner" option (that never works any way) it is forcing the teams into more tacking/gybing and, in a venue like Bermuda, essentially condenses the variation in pressure you'd see across a large course into a smaller area. With the need to select foil and potentially wing packages based on conditions the course is going to need to be close to shore so a big course out in steady breeze is probably out just because of the nature of the boats.

There will have to be some thought put into the penalty system and racing rules in general. Fingers crossed the rules experts grow a pair and stop worrying about The Game.

If the nationality of the boat builders is restricted that will potentially knock out all entries from, as a minimum, the European Union, where that kind of discrimination is illegal (some exceptions allowed in a sporting context but they have only ever been applied to the players).

Restricting the nationality of the sailors is not something that's ever been in the spirit of the Americas Cup and would either drastically impact on the number of teams entering or have no impact at all (i.e. you would still see international teams but the sailors would have to naturalise through residency or grand parenting). For instance either NO takes Swedish nationality or there is no NO. Forced to use Swedish sailors would TT carry on or fold up the team he's running for the sailors he's built a long standing relationship with in other classes? With only 1 development Australian team since 1995 would it force an Australian backer into the open or would it leave all the Aussie sailors on the beach with no team to sail for? Who would all those Kiwis sail for?

For every jingoist grumbling about this you have someone else who complains that the Olympics is mickey mouse because all the best sailors aren't there and someone from Outer Mongolia gets to play. Often they're the same people!  The same people also seem to simultaneously complain about the nationality of the sailors AND any attempt to attract a casual audience. Attracting petty nationalists IS dumping the event down to attract casual interest.

Longer races are unnecessary. One boat has usually established an unassailable lead with in the first 20 minutes. In the old world practically every race was decided at the start! Why drag it out any longer? The only reason to have longer races would be to ensure a tedious degree of predictability in the results, with it all coming down to whose boat is fastest. With these 20 minutes races we've seen teams punished for errors by loosing races. The longer the race the more time the faster boat has to recover from a boat handling mistake.

---

If there's one thing I'd like to see it would be for the teams to enter 2 boats.

All the attempts to restrict the number of development boats build basically failed, just let them build a couple of platforms or bring their old one to the racing.

I'm also still worried about the emphasis these boats put on the physical capacity of the human batteries. Sailing is a sport with a history of cheating at all levels and a closed culture. Where ever the human spirit and athletic performance comes up against the kind of competitive pressure the Cup generates there have been problems. Athletes are coming into the Cup from sports that have had those problems in spades. It took a long time for ACEA to come out and mention, briefly, that WADA protocols where being followed. There's been zero transparency since.

Either the amount of stored power or the reliance on humans to create that stored power needs to be drastically reduced.

This is an issue for the whole sport. An issue with performance enhancement in the AC will tarnish the entire sport.

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35 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

You're taking the piss but ironically the next cycle is  far more Aussie team friendly than the last.  I think the Oatleys expected all the Aussies in the fleet (who they'd basically funded to Olympic gold)  to drop their contracts and rush to sail for 'Stralia.  Consenses seems to be that if Oracle loose they're out, If ETNZ loose they're out and there  is a 50:50 chance or Artemis being back.  That frees up a huge  pool of Australian talent to build a team around.  Especial when you include Fresh and co from the Oracle design team.  Assuming ETNZ with you can be sure they'll take steps to minimize the cost of competing.  Now all you need is a rich Australian that gives a shit (and that is the hard bit).

I think you need a very rich Australian who not only gives a shit but can see a return on their investment. The Oatlys and Hammo island had some chance but I can't think of anyone else who could benefit. Global audience for a brand awareness campaign is tiny when compared to the outlay. Better to just sail everyone else's boats for them.

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I would say no. If I was GD, I would steer as far from the current format as I can. Bigger boats, as we know its not as big of a deal for certain teams as they said it was. Teams and sponsors are already committing knowing there is uncertainty around the next cycle, so this indicates teams are, and always were able to enter the AC. Bring back the Louis Vuitton Pacific Series in Multihulls, events staged in NZ, Australia, Italy, France, the UK and the UAE to be sailed in an upgraded, one design, power assisted/ wheel steered version of the AC45F Catamaran(ie the LR test platform loaned to ETNZ) match racing events staged in the above locations culminating in a double RR, semi final and final series sailed in Auckland in the new 62 foot foiling Catamaran with 8 crew. Winner claims the Louis Vuitton Cup and challenges Team NZ. Each team must base its campaign out of the country of its challenge until no less than a month from the Qualifier series. Teams may build bases but may not undertake any training on AC class boats at the nominated Americas Cup venue until this time. 

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Why? Do you think this will give the home team an advantage? Wouldn't the cup be better if the playing field was level? 

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18 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Why? Do you think this will give the home team an advantage? Wouldn't the cup be better if the playing field was level? 

ETNZ proved time on the water isn't everything if you can put together a skilled team and design a fast boat. It would give each team a chance to rally national support. Get their nations behind them, after all every one of these teams flys a national flag, whether it be NZ, USA, Japan or anyone else. If those fans from those nations can see those teams practicing at home flying their flag, it would surely give potential sponsors more National exposure wouldn't it? otherwise you have teams like the Japanese, who spend all of their time in Bermuda, and most of Japan doesn't even know who they are. It makes a mockery of representing these nations if you don't really represent them, but rather a billionaire from that nation. It wouldn't even matter if your team was made up of internationals, as long as you spend most of your time campaigning at home. It is worthless to try and introduce a Nationality clause in terms of personnel, but if each challenging team has to run their campaign out of their challenging nation and practice on their home waters until no less than a month prior to the Qualifying series, as ETNZ have done this time, it would definitely give more of a Nationalistic vibe for the majority of the time anyway. 

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2 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

You're taking the piss but ironically the next cycle is  far more Aussie team friendly than the last.  I think the Oatleys expected all the Aussies in the fleet (who they'd basically funded to Olympic gold)  to drop their contracts and rush to sail for 'Stralia.  Consenses seems to be that if Oracle loose they're out, If ETNZ loose they're out and there  is a 50:50 chance or Artemis being back.  That frees up a huge  pool of Australian talent to build a team around.  Especial when you include Fresh and co from the Oracle design team.  Assuming ETNZ with you can be sure they'll take steps to minimize the cost of competing.  Now all you need is a rich Australian that gives a shit (and that is the hard bit).

Does, Gina Rinehart have an ego as big as her net worth? 

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Being forced to have a home base and then drag your team to the other side of the world for regular racing wouldn't be a disadvantage?

Kiwi commercial interests are in bringing the teams to Aukland as early as possible and keeping them there. Given the build work done there that may even be the cheapest bottom line for the teams as well.

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Team New Zealand has made clear that if it wins, it will bring the regatta back to Auckland to defend it 

The article in the The Royal Gazette

 

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18 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Being forced to have a home base and then drag your team to the other side of the world for regular racing wouldn't be a disadvantage?

Kiwi commercial interests are in bringing the teams to Aukland as early as possible and keeping them there. Given the build work done there that may even be the cheapest bottom line for the teams as well.

Agree.

For the general promotion of the event and good status it will get them with New Zealanders and especially the government as a potential finance partner, they will want as much as possible of the action and related economic activity in New Zealand.

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49 minutes ago, sclarke said:

ETNZ proved time on the water isn't everything if you can put together a skilled team and design a fast boat. It would give each team a chance to rally national support. Get their nations behind them, after all every one of these teams flys a national flag, whether it be NZ, USA, Japan or anyone else. If those fans from those nations can see those teams practicing at home flying their flag, it would surely give potential sponsors more National exposure wouldn't it? otherwise you have teams like the Japanese, who spend all of their time in Bermuda, and most of Japan doesn't even know who they are. It makes a mockery of representing these nations if you don't really represent them, but rather a billionaire from that nation. It wouldn't even matter if your team was made up of internationals, as long as you spend most of your time campaigning at home. It is worthless to try and introduce a Nationality clause in terms of personnel, but if each challenging team has to run their campaign out of their challenging nation and practice on their home waters until no less than a month prior to the Qualifying series, as ETNZ have done this time, it would definitely give more of a Nationalistic vibe for the majority of the time anyway. 

It is supposed to be a competition between Yacht Clubs err Billionaires.

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If you are not forced into Larry type quasi one design stuff, made in NZ... why the funk would you build stuff there?

Much better to keep it CIC and devellop skills at home... to unleash later against the post sheep shag pie warmed mob.

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5 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

It is supposed to be a competition between Yacht Clubs err Billionaires.

Problem is...there's not many billionaires around who want to invest in an Americas Cup program anymore because they can't even get close to racing the boat. At least with the Monohulls, guys like Berterelli and even Ellison could get on the handle bars and race from time to time. So they got to at least have a bit of fun on their muti million dollar toys. Now, Billionaires would rather go race boats like the J class or competitions like the Giraglia or the Maxi worlds where they get to race in owner/ driver races and admire their extravagant machines. Americas Cup is an extreme sport now. There's no fun in dishing out hundreds of millions of dollars if you can't even play with the toys you've paid for.  

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25 minutes ago, arneelof said:

Artemis will be of some disadvantage due to frozen water...

So be it -- the Cup will be better off --will put a stop to billionaires putting together teams of mercenaries --in some cases having no sailors on board from country of challenge --how wrong is that.

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23 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Agree.

For the general promotion of the event and good status it will get them with New Zealanders and especially the government as a potential finance partner, they will want as much as possible of the action and related economic activity in New Zealand.

In New Zealand, promotion of the home team is promotion of the event itself. Take Rugby as an example, promotion of the All Blacks is promotion of rugby itself. Thats the way New Zealand works. New Zealand fans don't need to be educated on Americas Cup history. We know it all too well. Thats the difference between NZ and other countries in the Americas Cup. Other countries (like the US) need to be educated about the Americas Cup because the majority don't know, or don't care about it. Where NZ fans are as knowledgeable if not more knowledgeable about the AC as most other countries competing. ETNZ will be promoted as the home team defending the trophy they worked so hard for (If they win it). Promotion of ETNZ is promotion of the Americas Cup.

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7 minutes ago, Modernrate Buai said:

So i gather the AC will be fought via a rugby game on water using monohulls?

Whilst shearing sheep. We hold the world record. Need hydraulic power for this too. 

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2 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

Whilst shearing sheep. We hold the world record. Need hydraulic power for this too. 

Stored power methane wars... bring it on!

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OK I've made my fortune.

Self contained shears powered by the shearer who generates hydraulic power sitting on a bike station.  Cycloshearer.

I'll resign my current job and buy the beach house now.

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7 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

Whilst shearing sheep. We hold the world record. Need hydraulic power for this too. 

For the less farming aware, "shearing" is removing the wool.

It isn't a typo.

We would never share our sheep.

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Click. Has RC been trying to copy Formula E?  "The leading sport on social media. Owner Leo Dicaprio will be hoping fanboost gives his cars more power. Teams like Mahindra and Panasonic Jaguar will dish up amazing footage via 360 degree cameras. A world racing league with famous names driving,  touring the worlds famous cities. " Gag. The future is here. If Oracle win. 

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OK, this is SA and anything goes.  Still it's disappointing seeing the knee-jerk responses to a shallow and ingenuous query from a Newbie. Jesus wept!  The team is only one race up. Time enough to debate if and when its on its way back to Auckland.

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Ah so serious. As if anyone listens to what fans want when it comes to the AC. I'll still watch it if we windsurf in Tanzania. 

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6 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

Click. Has RC been trying to copy Formula E?  "The leading sport on social media. Owner Leo Dicaprio will be hoping fanboost gives his cars more power. Teams like Mahindra and Panasonic Jaguar will dish up amazing footage via 360 degree cameras. A world racing league with famous names driving,  touring the worlds famous cities. " Gag. The future is here. If Oracle win. 

I actually really enjoy Formula E, so much more happening than in a Formula 1 race and every year the technology moves significantly and it's relevant to where automobiles in general are headed, which is presumably why an increasing number of manufacturers are getting into it as the rules become more and more open.

Fanboost is the one feature I actually really hate though, it's a bit like pay to win video games where an external force has an influence on the result.

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23 minutes ago, Nutta said:

For the less farming aware, "shearing" is removing the wool.

It isn't a typo.

We would never share our sheep.

Na. I don't like sharing either. You never know who's been there before you. ;)

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2 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Na. I don't like to sharing either. You never know who's been there before you. ;)

Come on mate the Ockers will start teasing us

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They're just jealous because their sheep are mangy and malnourished.

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5 minutes ago, Nutta said:

They're just jealous because their sheep are mangy and malnourished.

And a rather unbecoming shade of red, don't ya think? I was never into gingers.

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6 minutes ago, Nutta said:

They're just jealous because their sheep are mangy and malnourished. ugly

 

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Better than their women - look beautiful and classy, until they start to talk and that accent brings you back to reality...

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1 minute ago, minimumfuss said:

And to round out the thread... Many have ginger curly hair

Ah....so you're a bit particular too, MF? 

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22 minutes ago, Nutta said:

Better than their women - look beautiful and classy, until they start to talk and that accent brings you back to reality...

Come on don't offend our man GA he's directly related to 9.7 million of them

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Full disclosure – I’m not a sailor, just an AC fanboy for many years.

 

What’s wrong with stored power?  I understand why it was banned when power was used on winches to handle sheets.

 

Now everything is hydraulic and there is no connection between a grinder and a given piece of kit.  A grinder is just an engine.  Why not replace grinders with an engine, letting everybody on board be sailors.   Make the engine a one-design with a limited, fixed power rating.  Lots of room for innovation on how to use a fixed bucket of watts.

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it would then turn into F1 racing on water. soon enough they'd be allowing wholly software driven decision making, with cameras looking to windward to feed in wind change info, and other cameras feeding in the position/speed/direction of the other boat. Then we'd just beed some computer engineers/electricians and hydraulic mechanics on board.  ;-)

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15 minutes ago, pluscount said:

What’s wrong with stored power?

 

It isn't the sport of sailing.

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7 hours ago, d2ba said:

Team New Zealand has made clear that if it wins, it will bring the regatta back to Auckland to defend it 

The article in the The Royal Gazette

 

Where is that quote exactly?  

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13 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

It isn't the sport of sailing.

hydraulic pressure is stored power.  So are the batteries that run instruments.  So are the Vendee GLobe and Mini Transats' autopilots.  And let's not even get started on Comanche and the whole canting keel thing.  

In other words, every kind of top-level sailing and much of lower level sailing use stored power in a number of different ways.

Is the Vendee Globe 'the sport of sailing?'

is the Mini Transat sailing?  If not, what is it?

If Olympians use battery-powered compasses, are they non-sailors?

Like everything, there is a scale of what is acceptable that is constantly in motion.  

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8 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Does, Gina Rinehart have an ego as big as her net worth? 

No, she has worse...... 2 kids with ego's bigger than the CYC during Syd - Hobart

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53 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

It isn't the sport of sailing.

Is it the “sport of sailing” when you can win or lose based on the energy output of non-sailors on your boat?

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47 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

hydraulic pressure is stored power.  So are the batteries that run instruments.  So are the Vendee GLobe and Mini Transats' autopilots.  And let's not even get started on Comanche and the whole canting keel thing.  

In other words, every kind of top-level sailing and much of lower level sailing use stored power in a number of different ways.

Is the Vendee Globe 'the sport of sailing?'

is the Mini Transat sailing?  If not, what is it?

If Olympians use battery-powered compasses, are they non-sailors?

Like everything, there is a scale of what is acceptable that is constantly in motion.  

Exactly. And lets not forget that the J's use stored power also. They couldnt run those beautiful things without hydraulics and batteries now. Checkout Svea..  :-)

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"Like everything, there is a scale of what is acceptable that is constantly in motion. "

To true but there's a big distinction between stored power for devices propelling the boat and that control them vs stored power for navigation instruments etc.

Auto pilot don't propel the boat. Canting keel systems that move a foil which is then locked don't. Passive dali moustaches don't use stored power to propel the boat. Dynamically trim either of those last two and you're back into a grey area. I guess that's why canters are derided as deasil stink pots. Compasses don't provide drive, but they are questioned on ethical grounds in anything under 22ft where electronics are limited to providing a heading in just about every class.

At the point you're using stored power to make aggressive trim adjustments that directly provide drive you might as well stick a prop in the water. There's definitely a line there.

The Vendee is becoming drone sailing with a mobile maintenance man on board. It's going to loose the adventure if it's not careful.

Mini racing is definitely sailing.

Olympic  sailing? Trying to keep a lid on stored power used to provide drive is exactly what Rule 42 is about, and yes plenty of people question whether what they are seeing is still sailing.

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57 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

hydraulic pressure is stored power.  So are the batteries that run instruments.  So are the Vendee GLobe and Mini Transats' autopilots.  And let's not even get started on Comanche and the whole canting keel thing.  

In other words, every kind of top-level sailing and much of lower level sailing use stored power in a number of different ways.

Is the Vendee Globe 'the sport of sailing?'

is the Mini Transat sailing?  If not, what is it?

If Olympians use battery-powered compasses, are they non-sailors?

Like everything, there is a scale of what is acceptable that is constantly in motion.  

Batteries that power instruments and batteries used to trim sails and foils are two different things.

I don't support engine-powered canting keel systems. It's the wrong direction for the sport and I am far from unique in holding that opinion,

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17 minutes ago, pluscount said:

Is it the “sport of sailing” when you can win or lose based on the energy output of non-sailors on your boat?

 

There's nothing new about having crew on board chosen for their athleticism or in somes case and under some class rules, because of their weight.

If however you are asking me whether I think the AC50 class has lost its way in its demand for power, I'd say yes.But stored energy or engines are not the answer.

 

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No one would be saying don't do the cool shit. Just do it in a way that is unequivocally sailing. So what if they are slower and harder to handle. That's the challenge for the crews.

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if a computer and battery control the foil positions, why does that make it any less about sailing?  I'd argue that letting a 'suspension' do its work allows them to do more sailing.  Better match racing, more tacking duels, etc.  Silly for four guys to basically be controlling the suspension of the vehicle.  

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Depends if you trust em to just keep it to trim control and not create dirrect thrust. Not a lot in history to suggest they would hold back

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4 hours ago, TN_Kiwi said:

it would then turn into F1 racing on water. soon enough they'd be allowing wholly software driven decision making, with cameras looking to windward to feed in wind change info, and other cameras feeding in the position/speed/direction of the other boat. Then we'd just beed some computer engineers/electricians and hydraulic mechanics on board.  ;-)

I can think of plenty of really good trickle down effects for the re-commercialisation of sailing from all that development though!

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6 hours ago, rgeek said:

"Like everything, there is a scale of what is acceptable that is constantly in motion. "

To true but there's a big distinction between stored power for devices propelling the boat and that control them vs stored power for navigation instruments etc.

Auto pilot don't propel the boat. Canting keel systems that move a foil which is then locked don't. Passive dali moustaches don't use stored power to propel the boat. Dynamically trim either of those last two and you're back into a grey area. I guess that's why canters are derided as deasil stink pots. Compasses don't provide drive, but they are questioned on ethical grounds in anything under 22ft where electronics are limited to providing a heading in just about every class.

At the point you're using stored power to make aggressive trim adjustments that directly provide drive you might as well stick a prop in the water. There's definitely a line there.

The Vendee is becoming drone sailing with a mobile maintenance man on board. It's going to loose the adventure if it's not careful.

Mini racing is definitely sailing.

Olympic  sailing? Trying to keep a lid on stored power used to provide drive is exactly what Rule 42 is about, and yes plenty of people question whether what they are seeing is still sailing.

Well said. 

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The word I have heard from a very reliable source is that if ETNZ wins the cup, then the World Series will be sailed in Foiling cats. However each team would be required to sail seperate foiling mono between ports where the WS is sailed. The winner of this will take a point into the LVC qualifiers where the challengers will race each other in the foiling monohulls. Then for the AC match itself, ETNZ will defend the Cup in a foiling cat against the winner of the qualifiers who will have to sail the same foiling mono.

m101201_crop169014_1024x576_proportional

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/9536_Volvo-Ocean-Race-unveils-combined-Monohull-Multihull-future.html

 

 

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Re: how much human hydro is needed.

It'll be up to the marketability and tastes of the audience now. What do you get if you allow it all to be electronic? You get Pete, Glen and maybe Blair. With the human hydro requirement, you also get three strapping young men pumping the oil. People don't want to see three guys controlling the whole thing from behind a smartphone, they want to see a range of the best people in the world doing different things. That's why hydro will never play much more of a part than it is currently.

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Same as you get on a GC32 or M32. A driver, a trimmer and a foil trimmer + a 4th to make tacking and gybing possible. Make them sit on, rather than in the boat and it'll look much like any other 4 man boat. They'd probably even hike.

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A minimum .07 blood alcohol limit for all onboard by race end, let's see some excitement!!! If anything, a half cut skippers post race press conference would at least be worth watching!!!

 

Oh and dub over the kiwi accents, its painful to listen to!!! ;-)

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I think either way, we will see cyclors and X-box controllers on every boat in the next cup.

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For ourselves I think a strong and credible Challenger of Record is the key. 1 way or another COR problems have blighted the last 3 cups. As to specific changes.

1. Boat hull(s) to designed and built in home country. None of this 2 metre bow section.

2. 60% of crew including helm must hold passport for home country.

3. Keep wing sails and foils,

4. No one design boats. I know everyone argues that increases costs, but does it really? Look at F1 they keep tightening the rules and the costs keep increasing exponentially. Each team can build 2 boats.

5. Races to be at least 1 hour. Preferably on open water courses.

6. No advantage to be gained from pre cup events. I wasn't that taken by the world series, run it if they want to, but then that's that.

But as I said a good COR is most important. 

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Cyclors look like a pack of dogs sniffing each others arses. Maybe it is faster but it just looks ridiculous.

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7 hours ago, Mudz said:

The word I have heard from a very reliable source is that if ETNZ wins the cup, then the World Series will be sailed in Foiling cats. However each team would be required to sail seperate foiling mono between ports where the WS is sailed. The winner of this will take a point into the LVC qualifiers where the challengers will race each other in the foiling monohulls. Then for the AC match itself, ETNZ will defend the Cup in a foiling cat against the winner of the qualifiers who will have to sail the same foiling mono.

m101201_crop169014_1024x576_proportional

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/9536_Volvo-Ocean-Race-unveils-combined-Monohull-Multihull-future.html

 

 

Not so far fetched, if you look at the latest VOR clusterfuck.

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6 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Cyclors look like a pack of dogs sniffing each others arses. Maybe it is faster but it just looks ridiculous.

More ridiculous than the first foiling, International Moth? Or the latest Mini 6.5 Protos?

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8 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Cyclors look like a pack of dogs sniffing each others arses. Maybe it is faster but it just looks ridiculous.

you have a thing for dogs dont ya, name, reference to sniffing dogs arses and the backing of your dog of a team BAR woof woof

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I don't mind what they race, as long as the design rules/parameters are set in concrete 24+ months in advance, as is location, competition date and wind in which racing will occur. 

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Quote

Then for the AC match itself, ETNZ will defend the Cup in a foiling cat against the winner of the qualifiers who will have to sail the same foiling mono.

Totally balanced & entirely reasonable ^_^

 

Honestly though Volvo race has really jumped the shark with that shit :huh:

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Not so far fetched, if you look at the latest VOR clusterfuck.

Ummm duh. 

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

More ridiculous than the first foiling, International Moth? Or the latest Mini 6.5 Protos?

Oh yes.

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4 hours ago, laser 173312 said:

4. No one design boats. I know everyone argues that increases costs, but does it really? Look at F1 they keep tightening the rules and the costs keep increasing exponentially. Each team can build 2 boats.

In the early stages of a new rule, somebody has hit the sweetspot better than everybody else, and racing is crap. 

In the later stages of a  rule, everybody knows pretty much where the sweetspot is, and everybody is flinging money at marginal gains. If broad gains (hitting the sweet spot) aren't available, the only place you can design in an advantage is at the margins. Which, as history shows, costs. 

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Costs are fixed by the markets desire for the pickle dish. The teams are still spending 100million and they still have the same number of team members as 10 years ago, although fewer of them are sailors.

Gains diminish but the beauty of sailing is the more that gains diminish the greater the impact they have. The smaller the boat speed margin, the more important it is to be fast out the gate and to battle it out for the right patch of pressure.

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Foiling monohulls make zero sense for match racing.  Get rid of the "World Series", the Cats and foils.  Determine a monohull that can actually sail in the open ocean and re-boot the AC back into a Challenge Cup between YC's and not corporations.

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6 hours ago, Turkey Slapper said:

 

A minimum .07 blood alcohol limit for all onboard by race end, let's see some excitement!!! If anything, a half cut skippers post race press conference would at least be worth watching!!!

 

Oh and dub over the kiwi accents, its painful to listen to!!! ;-)

winner

you'd get extra sponsors as well

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I'm dead keen that the boats have the push to pass button

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On 6/18/2017 at 5:13 PM, Sailbydate said:

Does, Gina Rinehart have an ego as big as her net worth? 

Yes, but she will want to sail on the boat.

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On 6/18/2017 at 3:03 PM, SCARECROW said:

You're taking the piss but ironically the next cycle is  far more Aussie team friendly than the last.  I think the Oatleys expected all the Aussies in the fleet (who they'd basically funded to Olympic gold)  to drop their contracts and rush to sail for 'Stralia.  Consenses seems to be that if Oracle loose they're out, If ETNZ loose they're out and there  is a 50:50 chance or Artemis being back.  That frees up a huge  pool of Australian talent to build a team around.  Especial when you include Fresh and co from the Oracle design team.  Assuming ETNZ with you can be sure they'll take steps to minimize the cost of competing.  Now all you need is a rich Australian that gives a shit (and that is the hard bit).

Aint gonna happen. Corporate Australia has a looooong memory about the reaming they took from the One Australia experience. They are not going to allow that sort of greedy excess ever again. Only way is a seriously rich but gullible individual and there's only one Larry.

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Most likely a massive coincidence but 2 of the old Mirsky Racing turned up at OR right about the time Sail Racing signed up as sponsors.

Got to respect the way the set up in Perth just keeps chucking out kids with no fear.

 

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Thread gone a bit off topic here but in regards to point 1 above - class of boat, it looks like PB is pretty sure the foiling cats will remain -- even if (when?) TNZ win. Check around 1m34s PB says: "If you think where these boats will be in a couple years time, it will be pretty impressive."

 

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

There's some will in western aus, I am told.

That's where the history is, for sure.

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so - lets say ENTZ wins.  Pointless (maybe fun) to think about the next boat. But - there are a couple key early things that will/may happen?


Who's the Challenger of Record?  Artemis? BAR? Japan?

Will there be a DoG Challenge?

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7 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

In the early stages of a new rule, somebody has hit the sweetspot better than everybody else, and racing is crap. 

In the later stages of a  rule, everybody knows pretty much where the sweetspot is, and everybody is flinging money at marginal gains. If broad gains (hitting the sweet spot) aren't available, the only place you can design in an advantage is at the margins. Which, as history shows, costs. 

And the weird thing is that in the AC, margins have often (usually?) historically opened out again later in the life of a class. Boats like Reliance, Ranger and S&S came at the end of their era and were dominant in the AC - and two of them were also probably the most expensive of their type.

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13 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Cyclors look like a pack of dogs sniffing each others arses. Maybe it is faster but it just looks ridiculous.

LOL

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AC50s would stay, but with a new format.

Larry would probably hesitate before sinking more money back in. Artemis seem keen.

Maybe even an Aussie challenge?

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Re challenger of record, you would think Bertarelli might want some quid pro quo from his mate GD. Overall gives ETNZ best chance to set it up how they want. 

80% of team both shore and racing to be BORN in country of origin. Would suit UK, France, Sweden and Italy. Might even make Oatley get his cheque book out. 

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1 hour ago, rickowa said:

Re challenger of record, you would think Bertarelli might want some quid pro quo from his mate GD. Overall gives ETNZ best chance to set it up how they want. 

80% of team both shore and racing to be BORN in country of origin. Would suit UK, France, Sweden and Italy. Might even make Oatley get his cheque book out. 

I don't think "BORN in" is fair.  Citizen for 10 years prior to match.  If dual citizen, country of birth.

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On 17/6/2017 at 4:06 AM, Boybland said:

1: Unlikely these type of boats are probably too good to give up. Expect changes to the scheduling and things like the ACWS both of which were pretty poorly organised this time.  They might choose not to be in the challenger series but who knows now that the precendent has been set. Also expect tweaks to open the rules the bit to allow Kiwi innovation to continue to push.

2: 50% Pretty sure absolutely no one at ETNZ has any interest in asking Glenn Ashby not to sail.

3: Nope, too many economic gains from New Zealand given that is where everyone gets their shit built, even more so if we are hosting!

4: Yes, hopefully longer legs and no stupid stadium finish!

5: You can't that is bound up in the Deed of Gift for when challenger and defender can't agree on the format.

 

Ashby should be granted honorary citizenship. 

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Mandatory nationality for sailors is a croc.

On the other hand, Challenger/Defender boats build in their YC country should be mandatory, IMO.

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16 minutes ago, Paddywackery said:

Ashby should be granted honorary citizenship. 

Pretty sure if he asked for citizenship you would get zero complaints and about 4 million positive character witnesses! ;)

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2 hours ago, SENDITBOYS said:

AC50s would stay, but with a new format.

Larry would probably hesitate before sinking more money back in. Artemis seem keen.

Maybe even an Aussie challenge?

Do you really think Larry has even noticed the moneys he's put in? He may or may not be back but it's entirely down to if he's enjoying himself or not. The thing is if NZ takes the cup it opens the game up for all the USA billionares (and there are a few of them) to bring it back - wear as they have been excluded up till now...

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Just now, Sailbydate said:

Mandatory nationality for sailors is a croc.

On the other hand, Challenger/Defender boats build in their YC country should be mandatory, IMO.

I'd prefer a ~50% rule for sailors, it allows developing teams some leeway and bigger teams to fill holes, while still maintaining a national feel to the teams and providing pathays in for local sailors.

About the only time Peter Burling actually sounds interested and serious in a press conference is when he is talking about representing his country, this is definitely a positive thing for both fans and sponsors and should be encouraged within the framework without completely removing the ability for sailors to move around.

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34 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Mandatory nationality for sailors is a croc.

On the other hand, Challenger/Defender boats build in their YC country should be mandatory, IMO.

If any nationality restrictions go past constructed in country, they should also be about the yacht - and be about the designers only. 

 

 

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Put a budget of 20 million per challenge.

Kiwi ingenuity will rise to the top....

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The Deed doesn't care one iota about what crew proves that country-built and country-designed boat to be superior.

Any nationality rule that focuses instead on the sailors is a mockery of the Deed's actual intention.

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