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d2ba

Will Team New Zealand change the current format of the America's Cup should they win

234 posts in this topic

45 minutes ago, ipexnet said:

The easy solution is 2019 AC in AC50s, with WS events in the AC45. But hopefully they make it clear that is the last round and if they win, the whole gameplan changes to VOR integration.  That is what everyone wants

 

Apparently it is what you want. I'm very far from certain about "everyone". I'm not sure why the AC would choose to hitch its wagon to a fading commercial event.

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Hopefully, humans pumping oil will be history by the next defence.  It's completely stupid like a hybrid powered car, a temporary aberration that was even embarrassing at the time.

If motors were used as in canting keelers, An AC50 only needs a crew of three at the most.  Crack sniffing of your fellow sailors should be banned.

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32 minutes ago, random said:

Hopefully, humans pumping oil will be history by the next defence.  It's completely stupid like a hybrid powered car, a temporary aberration that was even embarrassing at the time.

If motors were used as in canting keelers, An AC50 only needs a crew of three at the most.  Crack sniffing of your fellow sailors should be banned.

How bout an electric turbine in the water (or wind) or is that just as silly?  Although, I assume that'd be just enough to barely power communications and computers.

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3 hours ago, Rawhide said:

NZ would be mugs not to play to their strengths if they won.

They have proven to be the most successful innovators, opening up the design/construction restrictions would be to their benefit.

Crew nationality restrictions would given them a head start over most countries.

 

Spot on, and it will also take away the Aussie and Kiwi talent away from the competing AC teams.  AUS are unlikely to put together a team which would further strengthen NZ's position.

 

I would like to see 100% Nationality in sailors, design, construction and country of construction.  Let each country truely show off their strengths in both technology and athletes.

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Judging by the comment here , unless some WAs put some of that mineral wealth into taking over OR, there wont be an Aussie team for the Aussie sailors to sail for.

You've also got problems restricting the design team in terms of anti discrimination employment law in France, Italy, Sweden, GB (probably) and the US (probably). Might work if the design teams where based in a more lax jurisdiction. But I'm not sure having teams based in the likes of Bermuda is what you're thinking of?

So what does that leave? A tedious mono slug love in vs a Luna Poodle team? As much as RNZYS might enjoy having the Cup on the mantle piece NYYC style you have to wonder how that would keep the private backing coming in to pay ETNA wages. Not a lot of government interest if you're not maximising the opportunity to bring in as many teams as practicable.

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The thing is if NZ takes the cup it opens the game up for all the USA billionares (and there are a few of them) to bring it back - wear as they have been excluded up till now...

Only excluded by Larrys rules.

A 'normal' AC has multiple Defender syndicates.

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My 2c

1. We have not won it yet, so this is speculation

2. New Zealand as a country is excellent at developing new ideas to market

3. Refinement is a rich mans game. Exploring the corners even deeper of an area already well explored for the marginal gains is better achieved by big organisations, not common in New Zealand . 

I genuinely think it would be to new Zealand's benefit to have some significant modifications to the class, while retaining areas they believe they have unique strength in.  There will be many high risk areas of innovation that have yet to make it into the boat, probably things that would have significant speed benefit.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Rawhide said:

NZ would be mugs not to play to their strengths if they won.

They have proven to be the most successful innovators, opening up the design/construction restrictions would be to their benefit.

Crew nationality restrictions would given them a head start over most countries.

 

it would sort of bury some countries, like USA, Japan, Sweden, etc. 

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3 hours ago, ipexnet said:

everything boils down to boat selection. 

 

I can't imagine they will keep current platform. tactics suck, prestarts suck. 

The AC45 provided good action in WS events (where there was wind). The AC45 concept was copied from the Volvo40s. And now VOR has followed the path to copy the AC45. however, the key bit of understanding that VOR spent ages looking at.... The cats simply don't provide the right platform for the real deal. So for me, the solution is natural, we will have a special class of 60s and massive integration with VOR and Vendee globe. The WS events will be either AC 45s for 2018, before swapping to the VOR platform for future events, which will continue EVERY YEAR! Yes teams will have to sport up multiple team to staff the full time WS events, and the AC60s. But again, as they are naturally aligning with existing events, the pool of sailors is massive. 

 

the only problem, the integration will take at least a year to sort out, unless of course they have already made some decisions. 

 

The easy solution is 2019 AC in AC50s, with WS events in the AC45. But hopefully they make it clear that is the last round and if they win, the whole gameplan changes to VOR integration.  That is what everyone wants, so I really hope they just bite the bullet is do it now for the sake of sailing. We need common platforms. VOR has seen the light, and now its AC turn

 

AC 45s suck now.  compared to the AC50 and even the gc32 they are just hopeless.  this was demonstrated by youth americas cup.  

 

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37 minutes ago, hoom said:

Only excluded by Larrys rules.

 

Is that so? Who are all these $B wannabe defenders excluded by LE and where were they in AC34 when the protocol most definitely provided for defender selection trials?

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I don't think nationality matters from the competition view point but it matters from the event promotion aspect.

For this reason I would require all helmsmen to be born in the competing country because they are the people that the fans get to see on TV and they establish a role model for the young people of the country they represent. 

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12 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

I don't think nationality matters from the competition view point but it matters from the event promotion aspect.

For this reason I would require all helmsmen to be born in the competing country because they are the people that the fans get to see on TV and they establish a role model for the young people of the country they represent. 

I would once have agreed, but I don't. We are a nation of immigrants, many of us were not born here but are proud New Zealanders with New Zealand families.  

I used to support nationality rules, but I've yet to see anyone write down a solution which stacks up to be workable, ethical or legal.

the best I can see is that you create a culture and then hire people who best fit that culture, in that way you will get your local country heavily represented. BAR and ETNZ both fulfill that extremely well. 

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Will see how much Sir Dalton has it in for JS, DB, NO. He goes with National Helms they are done. That said JS wife is American so he could become US citizen. Interesting thing is Luna Rossa had Chris Draper on the helm so not sure they have the talent to move that way. 

Just do not see nationality rules being to big given number of Kiwis earning Crust on other programs. Imagine if French said non to all those All Blacks Eh. 

 

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9 hours ago, Boybland said:

Pretty sure if he asked for citizenship you would get zero complaints and about 4 million positive character witnesses! ;)

It would be an immense honour just to offer it methinks. 

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7 minutes ago, starrchallenge said:

Will see how much Sir Dalton has it in for JS, DB, NO. He goes with National Helms they are done. That said JS wife is American so he could become US citizen. Interesting thing is Luna Rossa had Chris Draper on the helm so not sure they have the talent to move that way. 

Just do not see nationality rules being to big given number of Kiwis earning Crust on other programs. Imagine if French said non to all those All Blacks Eh. 

 

Not Sir Grant yet - four more wins!

JS is a US citizen. Not sure he has given up his Straya citizenship but suggest not. But I note that his details for the Comanche race in July has him as a resident of BDA.

For sailing crew I would go for one ring in on the boat, otherwise all others should be citizens of the country from where the yacht club they are representing is.

This will be tough on some parties (eg DB) but will have the benefit of dramatically reducing the costs of entry and encourage teams like TNZ, LR, BAR where the patriotic supporters will provide some real support. Look at the backing of BAR and you see a group of Enlish/UK/GB/Empire companies that can see value by supporting a strong national team. Same LR, same TNZ. This will make a  “a perpetual challenge cup for friendly competition between nations.”

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54 minutes ago, aucklander said:

I would once have agreed, but I don't. We are a nation of immigrants, many of us were not born here but are proud New Zealanders with New Zealand families.  

I used to support nationality rules, but I've yet to see anyone write down a solution which stacks up to be workable, ethical or legal.

Workable, ethical and legal when being selected to compete at the Olympics. Not sure why it would be any different here.

 

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11 minutes ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

Workable, ethical and legal when being selected to compete at the Olympics. Not sure why it would be any different here.

 

So how far do you spread? Sailors only?  Shore crew? Designers? Tooling? Parts?  

It gets really hard to make it workable, because the race is not one design it means the non sailors are just as critical 

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On 6/18/2017 at 9:06 AM, d2ba said:

If Team NZ win the Americas Cup do you think format will change? thoughts?

Personally would like to see some major changes 

1: Scrap the current format and return to tradition monohulls or a much bigger Cat more sailors on board ---perhaps create  a new cup for the smaller cats --Rolex Cup? 

2: Sailors must be citizens of country of challenge

3: Boatbuilders must be based in country of challenge

4: Much longer races (30-40 mins minimum) 

5:  Close loophole for rogue challenges outside the event-  e.g. Oracle vs Alinghi 2010 .

 

1: To quote - "Doom & unmitigated Failure" at the moment there are many people already invested into this format (whether it be yachties & the General public - how many times have you been asked how good these weapons are?? in comparison to watching paint dry/grass grow with a couple of over valued shit boxes) & this will also detract the commercial investment & therefore it's inevitable demise within a couple of years which will then transform into, if any rich fuck gives a fuck a DoG race & we'll be in the same situation otherwise it's lost forever.

2; Give the person a Visa

3; Yep agree

4; Yep Agree

5; Never happen refer 1 = that's what AC is all about

 

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29 minutes ago, aucklander said:

So how far do you spread? Sailors only?  Shore crew? Designers? Tooling? Parts?  

It gets really hard to make it workable, because the race is not one design it means the non sailors are just as critical 

As I stated in my 1st post, I would personally like to see all nationalised.... not only for the country to showcase its on water talent but also off water.

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On 2017-6-19 at 8:55 AM, Turkey Slapper said:

 

A minimum .07 blood alcohol limit for all onboard by race end, let's see some excitement!!! If anything, a half cut skippers post race press conference would at least be worth watching!!!

 

Oh and dub over the kiwi accents, its painful to listen to!!! ;-)

Like your thinking here.....

 

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1 minute ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

As I stated in my 1st post, I would personally like to see all nationalised.... not only for the country to showcase its on water talent but also off water.

My apologies - i missed that :)  Well, I admire that sentiment, to be honest I'd accept it, but shit it would cause some court battles and caterwauling from those who think NZ are going back to the dark ages.  I fully agree that your all or nothing approach is better than a half baked sailors only solution, so I'm with you on that.  I also think Nationality is THE thing that brings audiences, and therefore long term sponsorship to the table.  If BAR gets success with UK sailors in the long run, perhaps then we see ongoing interest in the team.  For sure I think an Aussie challenge would be well supported, as could a US team.  Perhaps "passport at the time of the last cup being won" could be a mark of what nationality you are.  Problems would however come with partnerships tooling (software and hardware), and consultancy - how would this be solved/policed?  I think as an Aussie you'll know how much your country would get behind it, as we do here in NZ with a very kiwi team.  It brings in far more interest in this respect to the total audience when there is something to pin a flag to., engineering and sailing wise 

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Yup - Dont forget the lovely Kiwis in 2000 & "03 RIPPING the arse out of anything remotely to do with the A.C......... Syndicates BUYING real estate to avoid the kind offers of 500% rental prices over the normal market.... Joe average Kiwi is a good sort & patriotic et al, but believe you me they could give Aussie real estate agents & developers a few lessons I'll give you the hot tip!

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How to destroy the AC -

 

1. Nationality Rule

2. Change the class again

 

ETNZ will only get funds if there is exposure, they will only get exposure by increasing participating teams, they will only increase participating teams by having consistency. 

 

I used to be right behind the Kiwis taking the cup back, but now I'm not so sure. Nationality rule would be worse than CNEV.

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On 18/6/2017 at 9:58 AM, sclarke said:

Problem is...there's not many billionaires around who want to invest in an Americas Cup program anymore because they can't even get close to racing the boat. At least with the Monohulls, guys like Berterelli and even Ellison could get on the handle bars and race from time to time. So they got to at least have a bit of fun on their muti million dollar toys. Now, Billionaires would rather go race boats like the J class or competitions like the Giraglia or the Maxi worlds where they get to race in owner/ driver races and admire their extravagant machines. Americas Cup is an extreme sport now. There's no fun in dishing out hundreds of millions of dollars if you can't even play with the toys you've paid for.  

Perfectly stated, this is the real issue - since RC's idea of a F1-like, sponsor financed League is manifestly not working. Everything else is secondary

 

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1 hour ago, Xlot said:

Perfectly stated, this is the real issue - since RC's idea of a F1-like, sponsor financed League is manifestly not working. Everything else is secondary

 

I will say that the rumor I heard several times is that this is exactly the plan if ENTZ go on to win: continue with RC's F1-like league and take as many teams as possible (Artemis, SoftBank, Groupama, maybe even BAR and OR, plus some new ones) telling the Kiwis that if they would like the AC to be part of the circuit that's fine but the circuit continues regardless. Not saying it would work, but that it's their intention. If you think about it from LE's perspective it sort of makes sense. It is said that LE does not like to lose but I'd go a step further and say that LE does not lose, ever. He figures out a way, in advance, to make sure he wins no matter what happens on the water. So if you buy into that idea then it makes sense that he already had a plan B figured out and already has at least a handful of teams signed up to it. 

These are big IFs. If you believe the rumors, and if you believe that LE had a plan B ready, then the choice that ENTZ faces is sort of stark: either play along with LE/RC and hold the AC in two years in AC50s in New Zealand with a world series in multiple locations leading up to it, or find other teams willing to finance the design and development of another platform in order to face off in New Zealand in three or four years time. 

Personally I don't buy it. I think LE walks away. I think his "win" in his mind is what he has already achieved. I think he knows that the F1-like league is a dream that cannot be achieved without the AC as the trophy. 

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4 hours ago, Tornado_ALIVE said:

Workable, ethical and legal when being selected to compete at the Olympics. Not sure why it would be any different here.

 

An AC team is significantly bigger than an Olympics team .... plus all the backroom boys. Lets get real. Total nationality is completely impractical and if forced, would limit to only a small handful of countries. It would just prohibit other countries having-a-go or at least have a competitive team. The idea in this global world is a non-starter. 

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31 minutes ago, ttc546 said:

Workable, ethical and legal when being selected to compete at the Olympics. Not sure why it would be any different here.

The Olympics is at it's heart a athlete led event. It's ideals come for the games in ancient Athens when the Champions of each City would gather to meet and take part in trials of skill and strength. The modern Olympics replaces country replaced city but the basic concept is the same. It's a battle of champions.

Who selects the champions? The nationally and internationally accredited sporting body with responsibility for organising the sport in that country. For all their faults they are mostly run by officials that are democratically elected by the sports participants.

The AC is an owner lead event. National by self appointment.

In either case the backroom staff don't count. In the Olympics the equipment comes from international manufacturers and is largely one design.

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On 18 juin 2017 at 9:58 AM, sclarke said:

Problem is...there's not many billionaires around who want to invest in an Americas Cup program anymore because they can't even get close to racing the boat. At least with the Monohulls, guys like Berterelli and even Ellison could get on the handle bars and race from time to time. So they got to at least have a bit of fun on their muti million dollar toys. Now, Billionaires would rather go race boats like the J class or competitions like the Giraglia or the Maxi worlds where they get to race in owner/ driver races and admire their extravagant machines. Americas Cup is an extreme sport now. There's no fun in dishing out hundreds of millions of dollars if you can't even play with the toys you've paid for.  

Totally agree.

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5 hours ago, aucklander said:

So how far do you spread? Sailors only?  Shore crew? Designers? Tooling? Parts?  

It gets really hard to make it workable, because the race is not one design it means the non sailors are just as critical 

I'd limit it to the sailors and shore crew. Must be a citizen of country or married to a citizen of the country. Can have one crew member that does not meet the nationality rule competing at a time. 

The courts' already decided that the parts don't have to be built in nation, just the yacht (the hulls) itself. Designers can be from anywhere.

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1 hour ago, 2Newts said:

 

Personally I don't buy it. I think LE walks away. I think his "win" in his mind is what he has already achieved. I think he knows that the F1-like league is a dream that cannot be achieved without the AC as the trophy. 

I believe the reason Russell ran ACEA is so he could get as much money out of it as possible, because Larry has already told him this is the last one.  That's why Russell spent so much less time managing the race team in this one compared to his past winners.  I also know that there is a NYYC challenge gathering steam, and possible another billionaire-financed one in the wings depending on how far out AC36 will be.

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16 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

The Deed doesn't care one iota about what crew proves that country-built and country-designed boat to be superior.

Any nationality rule that focuses instead on the sailors is a mockery of the Deed's actual intention.

Funny how you've suddenly became interested in DoG after the mockery of  lazza/ru$$ vision...CiC didn't bother you when lazza's company was designing and building all the boats in NZ and only the one design bow sections had to be built in country..

i can't wait for TNZ to jam the world super league of the world vision up ru$$'s ass...

still waiting for you and your elk to stand up and point the finger at lazza and ru$$ because they have gone way beyond anything that Ernie could dream up...

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I'd just be happy with the restoration of a few AC fundamentals:

 

-Competition in home waters

-CiC and participant rules with some teeth (but not detrimentally restrictive) that at least follow the spirit of a national competition, instead of the mercenarial free-for-all that currently exists.

Those would be a good start.

In my perfect world, I'd also keep RC as far away from AC as possible, except as a sailor.  To me, he's patient zero for a lot of its ills for the past 20 years of so.

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I kind of hope that regardless of what happens with the AC proper that ETNZ competes in the Extreme series again and (quietly with no compulsion involved or contrived link to the AC) encourages the other teams to do so too. 

The boats are way better than the AC45F things and they do 10 times the racing at one tenth of the cost. 

Good to keep us and sponsors amused between cups and the crew tuned up. Hopefully the Extreme guys can afford a few drones and more than 2 cameras and keep posting it on youtube free as god intended sailing to be. 

An extreme series a few weeks before the AC proper in Auckland would be a good warm up event too.

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Who owns the AC series rights if cup comes to NZ?

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What a lot of marketing bullshit. Now all out the door!

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3 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

 

Only if you can keep the cup boyyzzzzz.....

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On 6/19/2017 at 6:50 PM, ~Stingray~ said:

The Deed doesn't care one iota about what crew proves that country-built and country-designed boat to be superior.

Any nationality rule that focuses instead on the sailors is a mockery of the Deed's actual intention.

The writers of the deed had no idea that international jet travel would be a thing, which is one of the main things that enables international teams. When they wrote the deed, the vast majority of people were born, grew up, worked and died in a very small area, if you emigrated to US/Aus/NZ it was likely a one-way trip.

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3 hours ago, Lartitude36S said:

Who owns the AC series rights if cup comes to NZ?

The Cup holders own all AC naming rights.

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50 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

The Cup holders own all AC naming rights.

Cup Holders plural, eh? There's a whole new conspiracy thread to be had right there in this tedious waiting period.

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

Cup Holders plural, eh? There's a whole new conspiracy thread to be had right there in this tedious waiting period.

Sorry dogwatch, no conspiracy. I mean any Cup holder owns the naming rights, which I'm sure you understood well enough. 

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Oh come on. Is boring here. We need a new conspiracy theory.

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telling the Kiwis that if they would like the AC to be part of the circuit that's fine but the circuit continues regardless

Lol, let them try.

Competitors will come to the AC because its the AC.

 

Quote

I believe the reason Russell ran ACEA is so he could get as much money out of it as possible, because Larry has already told him this is the last one.  That's why Russell spent so much less time managing the race team in this one compared to his past winners.  I also know that there is a NYYC challenge gathering steam, and possible another billionaire-financed one in the wings depending on how far out AC36 will be.

Interesting.

Team Facebook

Team Elon

Team Trump (?!)

Team M$

Team Lockhead Martin Skunkworks

Team Bloomberg

Team Hilton

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3 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Oh come on. Is boring here. We need a new conspiracy theory.

OK. Listen up, mate. But please keep it under your sailing cap, OK?

Dean Barker is coming back to NZL to head up a Defence for AC36. Of course he'll have to beat ETNZ in a Challenger Series first. I've been told the syndicate head is David Richwhite. David was Sir Michael Fay's Merchant Banking partner (you'll remember Sir Michael, "you're sailing a dog" fame) is coming back to NZL to put the syndicate funding together. KiwiBank is to be the title sponsor I understand, which is very generous of the bank's half-owners, the NZL taxpayers.

It'll be fun.

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Ah now lads.

Clearly ETNZ is on the hock to all kinds of fellas for the money to compete in AC35.

The next cup is going to be sailed in Dubai. One of the Cup holders will Emirates so that'll be completely legit. They're going to sail in monohulls because another of the cup holders says so and they'd have to give all their foiling multi hull IP to Luna Rossa as a quid pro quoe anyway.. actually as a co-cup holder is Bertarilli going to be able to challenge??

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Excellent.

I can also reveal that in an attempt to deflect negative attention from our PM's "Maybot" image and find something useful for the disruptive fucker to do, Boris Johnson will be appointed "Minister for Fun" with a £1000M budget for LRBAR. However a condition of the funding will be that Boris personally takes the helm. While he's not so far noted for yachting prowess, he is confident as an Old Etonian that his effortless superiority will waft him to victory.

 

london-uk-8th-september-2014-the-mayor-o

 

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5 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Ah now lads.

Clearly ETNZ is on the hock to all kinds of fellas for the money to compete in AC35.

The next cup is going to be sailed in Dubai. One of the Cup holders will Emirates so that'll be completely legit. They're going to sail in monohulls because another of the cup holders says so and they'd have to give all their foiling multi hull IP to Luna Rossa as a quid pro quoe anyway.. actually as a co-cup holder is Bertarilli going to be able to challenge??

Four of RC's poodles actually challenged (or at least went through the motions and over a few turtles) so I should think it only fair, don't you?

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It wasn't a great week for Chipping Norton was it? 100million to get picked on by the Kiwis and Maybot goes and squanders their donations on a disastrous campaign.

Those hoping for more nationalism in the Cup can rest safe though as Old Labour hate immigrants, so it'll be just fine for BAR to choose designers based on accent rather than experience who ever wins the general election that'll follow any ... day .. now ... not ... holding ... on ... to .. power .. or ... anything ... national state of emergency ... national state of emergency ... what do you mean we are in government with the terrorists???

The original club for hire up in Bangor still hangs out in the lovely club house Tommy Lipton built for them with pictures on the wall of J-Class yachts of yesteryear, so presumably the DUP are predisposed to a Great British (and Northern Ireland) challenge for the Auld Mug continuing.

Mean while, since there's tons of cash being generated by tons of mineral extraction in Western Australia these days, they must have the cash to take over Oracle Team USA should they loose. Given the number of sailors on the team with WA connections that must be a huge motivation for them to win AC35 right?

News just in from Clean that the NYYC will be in with a challenge. Word is reaching us that a win at all costs challenge will be lead up by Lance Armstrong. "Given our history in the Cup it seemed like a natural fit" said no one at the NYYC "We just couldn't resist the 'there is no second' attitude of the Cup organisers".

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27 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Four of RC's poodles actually challenged (or at least went through the motions and over a few turtles) so I should think it only fair, don't you?

Well there's presenting your challenge and then their receiving it. Different see.

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Never mind what's going on one the water or in the sheds. The biggest contest of the week is between who is carrying the biggest mental baggage over from AC34. Is it the "It's not over till it's over" Kiwis or the "remember the comeback! remember the comeback!" fans of ORTUSA. It's going to finish 8-0 guys!

I can't actually think of a joke about Artemis. They're lovely aren't they? All multi cultural and full of positive team work. It's like a meeting of all the great white tribes. Do you think they'll get together at and burn the boats and team kit when it's over. It'd be just like the end of The Vikings, which always makes me cry. So moving. So moving.

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On 20/06/2017 at 2:07 PM, Barnyb said:

4.5 million. About the same population as Louisiana

 

Mmmmm brisket BBQ 

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20 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Never mind what's going on one the water or in the sheds. The biggest contest of the week is between who is carrying the biggest mental baggage over from AC34. Is it the "It's not over till it's over" Kiwis or the "remember the comeback! remember the comeback!" fans of ORTUSA. It's going to finish 8-0 guys!

I can't actually think of a joke about Artemis. They're lovely aren't they? All multi cultural and full of positive team work. It's like a meeting of all the great white tribes. Do you think they'll get together at and burn the boats and team kit when it's over. It'd be just like the end of The Vikings, which always makes me cry. So moving. So moving.

Artemis are going to be the "o so close","nearly but not quite", just missed out guys of the AC.

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57 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Excellent.

I can also reveal that in an attempt to deflect negative attention from our PM's "Maybot" image and find something useful for the disruptive fucker to do, Boris Johnson will be appointed "Minister for Fun" with a £1000M budget for LRBAR. However a condition of the funding will be that Boris personally takes the helm. While he's not so far noted for yachting prowess, he is confident as an Old Etonian that his effortless superiority will waft him to victory.

 

london-uk-8th-september-2014-the-mayor-o

 

I got high with Boris in 1988. He hasn't changed much. 

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3 minutes ago, Lartitude36S said:

Artemis are going to be the "o so close","nearly but not quite", just missed out guys of the AC.

Not with IP in charge they're not. The Hulk is clearly not going to be happy with anything but a win!

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Just now, rgeek said:

Not with IP in charge they're not. The Hulk is clearly not going to be happy with anything but a win!

He's a collosus alright !

He would be a great fit in ETNZ.

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My wife has been extremely disappointed by the press conferences. She want to know where the cocky Aussie from last time is. When I pointed out who it was she got quite upset. "He looks so sad" see told me. She thinks he just needs a good cup of tea and will be out fighting fit for the next race. You have to admit it's probably the most reasonable argument for an OR comeback anyone has come up with yet.

When this is over do you think the members of ORTUSA will get refugee status? They'll be able to sail for anyone then.

RC is still confused why people got so upset about the venue for AC35. "I thought all sailors loved Bermuda's?" he told jurno's at a recent presser.

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1 hour ago, Barnacle Bill said:

I got high with Boris in 1988. He hasn't changed much. 

I bet he inhaled.

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6 hours ago, dogwatch said:

I bet he inhaled.

We ate cakes and listened to music in a Queensbury flat. 

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7 hours ago, rgeek said:

Not with IP in charge they're not. The Hulk is clearly not going to be happy with anything but a win!

Hulk SMASH!

befddecd10e2bb824e6e555f0474fd6b.jpg

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ETNZ has chosen the boat for the next AC.

Paddling is allowed.

hole-lolo.jpg

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15 hours ago, dangerousdave said:

The writers of the deed had no idea that international jet travel would be a thing, which is one of the main things that enables international teams. When they wrote the deed, the vast majority of people were born, grew up, worked and died in a very small area, if you emigrated to US/Aus/NZ it was likely a one-way trip.

For sure, but again: even if it was in a different era, the intent was all about proving what YC's country currently had the best fast-yacht construction capability.  It's reasonable to extend 'constructed in country' to design to make it meaningful; but it was not ever about who actually sailed the boat. The whole idea was to prove what country's YC could build the fastest ~boat~.

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9 hours ago, rgeek said:

Not with IP in charge they're not. The Hulk is clearly not going to be happy with anything but a win!

Might take a couple of cycles (pun intended).

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Hulk SMASH!

befddecd10e2bb824e6e555f0474fd6b.jpg

That is going to catch on on our boat!

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13 hours ago, rgeek said:

since there's tons of cash being generated by tons of mineral extraction in Western Australia these days, they must have the cash to take over Oracle Team USA should they loose. Given the number of sailors on the team with WA connections that must be a huge motivation for them to win AC35 right?

I"ll take odds on hell freezing over before we see WA ever getting onto the sailing map again. A lot of great sailors, but really WA is in the toilet right now and nothing looks to change that. 

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3 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

, the intent was all about proving what YC's country currently had the best fast-yacht construction capability. 

Citation?  Where is there any contemporary evidence of the intent of the donors at the time they wrote the first Deed?

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20 minutes ago, The Jay said:

Citation?  Where is there any contemporary evidence of the intent of the donors at the time they wrote the first Deed?

There is plenty of it. Including in the words of the Deed itself but also from the early decades of AC history. None of the intent was about who sailed the boat; the boat was all that mattered.

The NYYC (for debatable reasons..) did introduce a sailor-nationality clause but not until 1980 (!)

 

 

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Where in the Deed and where in the early decades of AC history?  The Deed's easy to find and it says nothing like what you claim. Nor does any correspondence or evidence of Schuyler's time prove that the Cup was meant to test construction.

Yes, America herself was a display of American construction, but she wasn't an example of the standard American type of racing boat.  It's also significant that the Cup was not donated to the NYYC for years after America won it. The syndicate considered melting it down and giving each syndicate member a piece. That's an illustration of the gap between them winning the Cup for a fleet race in which everyone just sailed as a private boat, and the time when they came to donate it. 

 

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my thoughts are mixed but here they are anyway:

I am in two minds about the boat, I like traditional match racing and more sailor input, spinnakers etc but like the dynamics of the foiling cats

I would like a better course configuration - not sure of the start and finish reaches - so the crowd in the stands can see the boat for a few seconds? Traditional upwind starts and downwind finishes leave a few more options on the race course, slightly longer races

Bring back the focus on competing yacht clubs - not independent teams

Bring back a high percentage of origin country construction

reduce the one design component

Increase sailor country of origin (50% of sailing crew)

 

my 2 cents worth of todays thoughts.

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11 hours ago, Barnacle Bill said:

We ate cakes and listened to music in a Queensbury flat. 

Boris certainly looks like he's eaten a few cakes in his time.

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7 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Boris certainly looks like he's eaten a few cakes in his time.

It was a fleeting mateship. He has some ideas then that captured the imagination of those who were around him. No surprise he turned to politics. 

Bloody nice guy in no control or filter of what he said. 

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God, nothing's changed, lol.

Just popped in to get some insight after a hiatus, wondering what the future might hold.

Is there anything official from TNZ?
 

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The 2 things I miss from the mono-hull days are the actual tactics and skills of match racing (tacking duals, favored sides, pre-start dial-ups, wind shadows and all that.) AND I miss watching the sailing. These races are so short now we actually get to see bugger-all sailing.

Having said that I do enjoy the technology side of this and those Cats are pretty amazing, but at the end of the day the AC has become an almost straight line drag race and I while I'd like to see the speed and technology edge stay, I'd also like to see it get back to actual sailing as well.... too much to ask?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, KiwiTek said:

The 2 things I miss from the mono-hull days are the actual tactics and skills of match racing (tacking duals, favored sides, pre-start dial-ups, wind shadows and all that.) AND I miss watching the sailing. These races are so short now we actually get to see bugger-all sailing.

Having said that I do enjoy the technology side of this and those Cats are pretty amazing, but at the end of the day the AC has become an almost straight line drag race and I while I'd like to see the speed and technology edge stay, I'd also like to see it get back to actual sailing as well.... too much to ask?

 

 

Amen to that.

 

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GD more than hinted at the presser cost control, high tech but more guys sailing rather pumping oil. Maybe the latter might lead to some stored power being allowed?

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Box rule, 70' length, whatever for the width & mast height (cat, tri, mono, foiling, wing or sail).  1 boat per team.  Every boat to compete has to make a proving run from Sydney to Auckland 1 month before the LV with no changes to the platform after that (other than repairs back to the state at which it left Sydney), wing/foil changes allowed, and wind limits are 7-40knts. 75% nationality rule.

I think we would see some pretty cool different boat designs, FAR more durable, and the teams may end up spending LESS on the boat, knowing that extreme designs may not be that great given the need to cross the sea. 

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16 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

Box rule, 70' length, whatever for the width & mast height (cat, tri, mono, foiling, wing or sail).  1 boat per team.  Every boat to compete has to make a proving run from Sydney to Auckland 1 month before the LV with no changes to the platform after that (other than repairs back to the state at which it left Sydney), wing/foil changes allowed, and wind limits are 7-40knts. 75% nationality rule.

I think we would see some pretty cool different boat designs, FAR more durable, and the teams may end up spending LESS on the boat, knowing that extreme designs may not be that great given the need to cross the sea. 

Love the idea

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Interesting idea, also helps the deed get back to one of its starting points.

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21 hours ago, paps49 said:

Is there anything official from TNZ?

 

No. "In a couple of weeks".

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10 hours ago, GauchoGreg said:

Every boat other than the Defender has to make a proving run from Sydney to Auckland 1 month before the LV with no changes to the platform after that (other than repairs back to the state at which it left Sydney)

FIFY, gotta keep it traditional to the AC ;)

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Why is everyone looking to bastardise the AC into an offshore regatta?

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On 6/26/2017 at 5:13 AM, KiwiTek said:

The 2 things I miss from the mono-hull days are the actual tactics and skills of match racing (tacking duals, favored sides, pre-start dial-ups, wind shadows and all that.) AND I miss watching the sailing. These races are so short now we actually get to see bugger-all sailing.

Having said that I do enjoy the technology side of this and those Cats are pretty amazing, but at the end of the day the AC has become an almost straight line drag race and I while I'd like to see the speed and technology edge stay, I'd also like to see it get back to actual sailing as well.... too much to ask?

The selective memory never ends here. While there were indeed some epic tactical monohull races, they were the exception. Look at the previous scores, the loser was blown out way more often https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup. Go back and summarize every race, and count the epic races vs the snooze fest parades. Most monohull America's Cup races were "drag races" that were over at the start unless there was an equipment failure. After the first leg it was over more often than not, why drag it on for an hour or more? And the prestart dialup, sitting for a minute and  sliding backwards, that was idiotic IMO. 

There were favored sides, covering and not, hunting, and tactical situations in prestart and on the course in AC35 roughly as often as most previous AC's. AC35 was more tactical than AC34 too.

 

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On 2017-6-22 at 10:32 AM, ~Stingray~ said:

There is plenty of it. Including in the words of the Deed itself but also from the early decades of AC history. None of the intent was about who sailed the boat; the boat was all that mattered.

The NYYC (for debatable reasons..) did introduce a sailor-nationality clause but not until 1980 (!)

 

 

I missed this one, but I may say now that I know the Deed and early AC history pretty well and haven't seen the 'evidence' you are speaking of. I think John Rousmaniere's essay on the topic said it all - the nationality of those running the challenge was seen as vital. Yes, the hand on the helm may have been hired, but the hired hand was doing what people like Iselin told him to do, and the people saying what had to be done were representatives of club and country.

 

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2 hours ago, rgeek said:

Why is everyone looking to bastardise the AC into an offshore regatta?

The AC was originally competed with boats that sailed to the venue.  Having boats sail to the venue over a stretch of open water does not make it an offshore regatta.  The point is to have more robust/rounded boats, rather than flimsy boats designed for very constrained conditions.  If a boat had to be seaworthy and capable of competing in a wide range of conditions, the amount of money spend trying to eek out the 1/1000th percentile gain under tightly controlled conditions would be pissed away, and the boats would be far less likely to bust... creating a natural cost control and influence to make boats that could hold up through the entire event, and be far safer for the crew.  It would not change the actual means of competing (meaning up/downwind matchracing around cans).

By they way, the boats would be kickass, have much more utility for other racing (Round-Isle-of-White, Cross-the-Med, maybe even TransAt/TransPac, etc.), more interesting, and have a much longer life.

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If memory serves (Jay?) America was shipped across.

The original matches where sailed in the sheltered waters of NY harbour.

The NYYC introduced the on it's own bottom rule to protect the substantial advantage they'd enjoyed in terms of building light weight fragile boats. Not for style marks. And even then challengers where towed across rather than sailing.

Diesel stink pots are not really interesting though are they? They're a bit of a joke. All that money to go not quite as fast as a Mod 70! And reliant on running their engines to trim the keel. Worse than the AC50 for their reliance on stored power.

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Once it actually became the Americas Cup, challengers had to sail across oceans. Defenders had to sail from Bristol, RI (or Maine, or wherever) to Newport, RI. Not exactly similar voyages. 

I don't think anybody would have called Reliance robust. 

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3 minutes ago, rgeek said:

If memory serves (Jay?) America was shipped across.

Struggle to believe that. Everything I have ever seen talks of sailing across. 

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44 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

Once it actually became the Americas Cup, challengers had to sail across oceans. Defenders had to sail from Bristol, RI (or Maine, or wherever) to Newport, RI. Not exactly similar voyages. 

I don't think anybody would have called Reliance robust. 

I'm not saying everything done in the past was perfect, but still, the net result was still that the boats actually could actually make a short passage.  My point remains, if they had a rule where the boats were required to have some semblance of seaworthiness, where they would have to be able to deal with some degree of sea state and wind range, the boats would be more interesting/diverse, more robust, and likely less expensive to build.  I had hoped that would be the case with sailing in SFO, but they constrained the wind range too much and put way too big of a wing (without flexibility) into the rule.  These days, such a rule would not preclude the boats from being able to haul-ass around the cans and be exciting to watch.  I could very easily see something somewhere between the AC72 and a MOD70, something designed to be raced over the course of an hour, but that could be camped on for a short proving passage

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One of the best things about NZ winning the Cup is that we can be rid of the idea of a neutral site for the cup to be competed.  I always loved, in the past, thinking when a team elected to compete for the cup, thinking of where they would defend if they were to win.  Loved the options, for example, of where France would stage a defense (so many awesome venue options).  Australia, Great Britain, Italy, San Francisco.... so many fantastic places where a defender could come out with their own nationality, their fans, and defend.  After Alinghi's venue in a different nation, after Oracle went to Bermuda (San Francisco was awesome.... never should have abandoned it, they should have just moved bases across the Bay), after the threat of the other challengers that went along with Oracle's plan, we now can get back to the idea that the defender defends in home waters.

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5 hours ago, GauchoGreg said:

I'm not saying everything done in the past was perfect, but still, the net result was still that the boats actually could actually make a short passage.  My point remains, if they had a rule where the boats were required to have some semblance of seaworthiness, where they would have to be able to deal with some degree of sea state and wind range, the boats would be more interesting/diverse, more robust, and likely less expensive to build.  I had hoped that would be the case with sailing in SFO, but they constrained the wind range too much and put way too big of a wing (without flexibility) into the rule.  These days, such a rule would not preclude the boats from being able to haul-ass around the cans and be exciting to watch.  I could very easily see something somewhere between the AC72 and a MOD70, something designed to be raced over the course of an hour, but that could be camped on for a short proving passage

If you want to guarantee NZ hold the cup for ever this is a great idea.

 

1) The challengers have to sail to the venue on their own hulls, in its race configuration  

2) Boats must be built in their home country

3) Its an inshore regatta. 

 

ETNZ could design a light weight foiler while everyone else has to be capable of getting the boat to NZ... no way they could loose. Heck just the living accommodations for the crew would eliminate the boats from providing a real challenge. 

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9 hours ago, rgeek said:

Why is everyone looking to bastardise the AC into an offshore regatta?

Really?  Most of them were sailed off shore.  Not till sailing in the Bay.  There is so much more dynamics to deal with off shore.  Zipping around in a bathtub is about as fun to watch as cars going around in circles on smooth tracks.  We already see the AC cats can't handle winds over 24 kts, heaven forbid any real wave action.  Speed is one thing, but sailing was never really a spectator sport on the water.  Off Shore makes it real again.

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After listening to Dalton's answer to a question about returning to monohulls, I get the sense he is thinking along those lines.  He wants yachtsmen, not button pushers, and given his background in RTW sailing and his comment about sailing in the lagoon, he'd also prefer to be offshore.  Now maybe it still means a cat, but not foiling and able to deal with a wider range of wind and wave conditions.  If he sees his actions as a way to bring together "fragmented" aspects of the sport, and every race he cites is a monohull....the AC50's may get to have a series, but not represent in an AC Cup again.  (please I hope so).

The AC has moved so far away from the spirit, if not the letter of its roots it should not be called America's Cup anymore for nothing of that remains.  I favor stronger nationality rules, because it does two things.  Forces a Sailing NO to work to find and/or train new sailors which is good for the sport, and draws the public in to actually cheering for a boat that has the country's markings somewhere buried inside all the corporate logos.  The same for boat construction, though boat design I feel can be excluded.  Before we had Oracle, Alinghi, Luna Rosa, we had the US, New Zealand, Australia, France, and boat names, Liberty, Stars and Stripes, Ranger.

The mockery is looking at what happens today and calling it the America's Cup.  I can't tell who broke it first, Connor with his Cat that unlocked the door or Coutts that shoved his ass into it and shit all over the Event.  I will hope that NZ can thread a needle and do what Dalton mentions, bring it back to a yachtsman's race, something special, and not just one leg of a series that eventually no one will really care about outside some sailors getting hards on about speed.

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42 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Really?  Most of them were sailed off shore.  Not till sailing in the Bay.  There is so much more dynamics to deal with off shore.  Zipping around in a bathtub is about as fun to watch as cars going around in circles on smooth tracks.  We already see the AC cats can't handle winds over 24 kts, heaven forbid any real wave action.  Speed is one thing, but sailing was never really a spectator sport on the water.  Off Shore makes it real again.

The first 13 where sailing in NY harbour. 2 in Aukland in the gulf. 1 inside in San Fransisco. 1 in the Great Sound in Bermuda. That's half of AC races sailed in restricted waters.

3 in Dago and 2 in Valencia on what would be considered classic inshore courses. Even the 13 races in Newport where basically sailed close to shore (on big courses).

That just leaves Freemantle.

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53 minutes ago, rgeek said:

The first 13 where sailing in NY harbour. 2 in Aukland in the gulf. 1 inside in San Fransisco. 1 in the Great Sound in Bermuda. That's half of AC races sailed in restricted waters.

3 in Dago and 2 in Valencia on what would be considered classic inshore courses. Even the 13 races in Newport where basically sailed close to shore (on big courses).

That just leaves Freemantle.

Barely off shore is still off shore and they did sail in a variety of conditions in Newport as well.  New Your Harbor, like SanFran Bay is not a lagoon.  Let's go back a second and consider this quote from wiki on the America's Cup.

 

Quote

The J-class yachts from the 1930s remained the default for the cup, but post-war economic realities meant that no-one could afford to challenge in this hugely expensive class. As twenty years had passed since the last challenge, the NYYC looked for a cheaper alternative in order to restart interest in the cup.

20 years.  What that tells me is that if someone wants it, they will come, but trying to make it "sexy" for the crowd does not always work.  Here is the Cup take either a step back from the powerhouses of the past or a step forward in getting interest again.  Dropping AC50's will not "end the Cup", because the Cup is not about sexy, or pleasing the crowd because from the late 1800s to the 1970's, most people didn't even know about, much less give a damn about this race.  This was about rich guys funding boats that did not need their dicks plastered all over the boat, just their name in the press.

It is a friendly competition between countries.  Right there in the deed.  Rich guys may fund it, but the point was the association of nationality at the forefront.

Read that Wiki article, and I bet you've read books, and the one thing that is missing in today's Cup race...soul.  Yes, 5 guys are "passionate" about zipping around, but there is no soul in the game right now.  I watched the "trucks" in 83 and the loss....there was soul.  I watched the win in 87 and there was soul, but then 1988 came and Connor broke that soul.  

So argue all you want for plastic boats flying over the water every year, but please do not associate such with the term America's Cup, because unless NZ, who helped brake its tradition, fixes it.  The America's Cup died in 88 with a cheat and and in a court. 

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It was supposed to be a best-of-boats competition, a friendly competition between designs of boats constructed in different nations.

The focus instead on just the nationality of sailors is mostly for marketing and (unfortunately) for competitive advantage in Defending. The NYYC should never have introduced any semblance of it back in 1980 but the PR guys won the day; and yet the attempt failed in '83 regardless when the faster boat won anyway.

The argument back then (whatever the strengths were on each side) over what nationality helped design Australia were far more pertinent to the point than whoever helmed that faster-designed boat.

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Schuyler wanted the America's Cup to be a test of a yacht's sea-going qualities as well as its speed - he felt that was an essential part of the interest in a contest between nations.

The area where the AC was run for years off Newport isn't "inshore"; even classes with Cat 1 capable boats like the Farr 40s have moved their racing off the AC course area into the bay when it got rough.

 

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

It was supposed to be a best-of-boats competition, a friendly competition between designs from different nations.

The focus instead on just the nationality of sailors is mostly for marketing and (unfortunately) for competitive advantage in Defending. The NYYC should never have introduced any semblance of it back in 1980 but the PR guys won the day; and yet the attempt failed in '83 regardless when the faster boat won anyway.

You still haven't demonstrated that. Rousemaniere points out that the ideas of the day were that the afterguard (who were club representatives) were nationals and they were the ones that counted.

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Rough on a bad day does not make the racing "offshore". Out of the sight of land, self suficiency and not returning to port each evening are what diferentiates between inshore and off shore racing.

Some of the afterguard  where owner driver amateurs. Some weren't.

 

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