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40Plus

Grainger Raider 302

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Dragon looks great! It would sail circles around a F-31. Raider would give the F-31 a good run for the money too. Nice price on the Raider. Bringing it to PNW? It would be a good R2AK ride.

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45 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Dragon looks great! It would sail circles around a F-31. Raider would give the F-31 a good run for the money too. Nice price on the Raider. Bringing it to PNW? It would be a good R2AK ride.

Thanks for the response, do you have first hand experience with either if these two?

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Yes, I've raced a good bit on a F-31C down in the Caribbean and raced against the 28R a couple times in the Miami-Nassau Race. All good boats in the right hands. Look at the results of the R2AK. I really had the hots for the Raider when it first came out and if I didn't have a 28' tri already would consider that Raider in the ad you posted. Great price if the sail inventory looks as good as they claim. Keep us posted.

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I've sailed a Raider a few times. Unfortunately it was one with a (very) short rig. They originally were offered with either a 42' (short) mast or the racing rig of 46'. The guy who bought this one was very timid and got a 40' mast. (It also fit in a 40' container.) I loved the boat but it needed 18 kts of wind to get powered up. The one you're looking at has the tall rig and I'd love to have a sail on it. I've been following this one for awhile and would consider buying it myself if I could sell the boat I have now. It's been listed for awhile.  F31 would be a good choice too. They're definitely fast. If you buy it and you're near Newport give me a shout. Like I say I'd love to go for a sail.

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Have not sailed the raider but noticed that the fastest racers in Oz ended up with stretched hulls (there is only one reason for that.) Reynolds had other issues.  So the 'going fast requires really experienced crew' disclaimer is probably in effect.

Sailed most of the corsairs, and although they hold their value quite well (aka you can't get them as cheap as other boats) they are awfully convenient to put on a trailer, and go where you want to quickly and launch REALLY quickly.)

There are a couple of other 'Bamboo Bombers' down under and in NZ, but I don't see alot of that kind of boat in the USA.  Wish we could get a half dozen Firebirds from the UK over here.  They are solidly in the box of what you are looking for.

Love your dream  - good luck with it and hope it works out.

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7 hours ago, Lat 18 said:

I've sailed a Raider a few times. Unfortunately it was one with a (very) short rig. They originally were offered with either a 42' (short) mast or the racing rig of 46'. The guy who bought this one was very timid and got a 40' mast. (It also fit in a 40' container.) I loved the boat but it needed 18 kts of wind to get powered up. The one you're looking at has the tall rig and I'd love to have a sail on it. I've been following this one for awhile and would consider buying it myself if I could sell the boat I have now. It's been listed for awhile.  F31 would be a good choice too. They're definitely fast. If you buy it and you're near Newport give me a shout. Like I say I'd love to go for a sail.

Just heard from the Broker, it has the 14 meter rig, the GP version has a 15 meter rig. 

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8 minutes ago, 40Plus said:

Interesting, why do you say it's better than Dragon? At first glance Dragon appears better sorted and refined. 

Dragon at $90K is $30K more

Timberwolf is great value at $60K

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Timberwolf would be hard value to beat. Go fast have fun. Timberwolf has been sailed a lot more than dragon as well, so is likely more sorted.

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I had a Raider 302 (Time Raider), it was a pretty good boat, bloody quick, nothing in Western Australia could get close.

But then again that trimaran looks pretty freaking awesome. The F31's could not beat our Raider, but that tri looks like it'd whoop a F31 as well. 

We actually had a big rig on the boat, and then had the boat built slightly narrower, it would fly a hull and rip in no wind. Really nice hulls for light air too.

But if you asked me which of the quick tri, raider and a F31 I'd buy now? F31.

I've owned a farrier, and it was the best boat I've ever owned, I'll happily sacrifice that speed boost for the pleasure of owning a farrier, that folding ability, the great room in the main hull (the raider had two alright hulls to spend time in, but still it's 4' of room, not 8'). The raiders loads were much higher, the boat is much much more complicated (rig rotation control from the front (not auto), the F&^% running backstays (I swear on my life I'll never own a boat with them again).

It takes a day at each end of a trip to transport the raider for a team of guys, it also requires 3 quality sailors and a couple extra hands to sail it.

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14 hours ago, 40Plus said:

Hey SA'ers - Kicking tires at this point, looking for performance info on the Grainger Raider relative to say a F-31R.http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/Grainger-Raider-302-2789191/Australia#.WUqyUsmDTqA

Any info or insight on Dragon http://m.yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sailing-trimaran/custom-10-6-racing-trimaran/202866

 

Thanks all

The Raider would be faster than a F31r in most conditions. It really depends on which Farrier as the difference an optimised light one and crusey one is huge. 

Dragon would be faster than the Raider in certain conditions - I think it would be an interesting match up.

I have raced against Dragon and also on board Farriers of various sizes and the Grainger that was in the Auckland fleet.

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Its been a lot upgrades in Dragon - canting mast and carbon in the constructin - not totally obvous to med that Timberwolf is better buy...

 

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1 hour ago, SeaGul said:

Its been a lot upgrades in Dragon - canting mast and carbon in the constructin - not totally obvous to med that Timberwolf is better buy...

 

T-wolf has just been slashed -but Dragon is "negotiable" - so the difference maybe not too big. 

Any have data: weight, sailarea, mast height - how wide (Dragon is 7,6m but looks wider. These types og boat - oneoff old racingboats are not easy to sell - for some reason. 

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8 hours ago, Samin said:

The Raider would be faster than a F31r in most conditions. It really depends on which Farrier as the difference an optimised light one and crusey one is huge. 

Dragon would be faster than the Raider in certain conditions - I think it would be an interesting match up.

I have raced against Dragon and also on board Farriers of various sizes and the Grainger that was in the Auckland fleet.

What conditions was Dragon faster in?

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28 minutes ago, drew1 said:

Timberwolf rating is much faster than Dragon.

Nz has a pretty good rating system.

Interesting,  I have been trying to find the ratings of TW and Dragon but haven't been successful. Do you have a link to the various ratings?

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3 hours ago, Rushman said:

How should one interpret the rankings?  For example, what's the difference between Race Track and Full History?  In the Full History filter, Timberwolf (Cochrane 30) and Silveraider (Grainger 302) are rated very closely (#21 and #20 respectively).  But the Race Track filter is less inclusive and it's unclear to me how the number of races sailed factors into the rankings.  Lots of information, just not sure how to read it.  Thanks very much for posting the link. :)

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Higher number, faster boat

Timberwolf is only showing 10 races so I am thinking these are recent ones with the new rig (dropped the rig in 2013 during a delivery)  I left NZ late 2013 so a little of touch

http://www.racetrack.org.nz/  has some introductory information and a question link

Timberwolf had new armas in 2010/11, there was a thread on crew.org.nz with lots of photos, I will see if I can find it

Found it but the photos might be AWOL after a forum upgrade  http://crew.org.nz/forum/index.php/topic/847-timberwolf/

 

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whats not too like about a cool grainger cat.........

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last one...... taeping.    She was a steal..... 

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If a rating has race results as a part its harder to compare the boats. The basic data should be known.

The Raider is a rather "simple" production boat - with alu-mast and some alu-parts - not carbon.

Those tris - are older tweaked racing tris - at 35ft - they are complex and advanced - and have a lot expensive solutions that need careful maintenance - and money.

The Raider is much easier and cheaper to own - and would get a fair price when sold - the others - well you see the slashing og pricees - compared to the massive investments.

Think also the Raider is easier to sail up to its potential.

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7 hours ago, SeaGul said:

If a rating has race results as a part its harder to compare the boats. The basic data should be known.

The Raider is a rather "simple" production boat - with alu-mast and some alu-parts - not carbon.

Those tris - are older tweaked racing tris - at 35ft - they are complex and advanced - and have a lot expensive solutions that need careful maintenance - and money.

The Raider is much easier and cheaper to own - and would get a fair price when sold - the others - well you see the slashing og pricees - compared to the massive investments.

Think also the Raider is easier to sail up to its potential.

Good points SG, the Raider is certainly less complex.

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Thanks for all the info everyone, definitely leaning towards the Grainger Raider, neither TW or Dragon are demountable so it makes impractical to ship either of those two to N.A. 

 

I understand there was a Grainger Raider on US East coast, anyone know what happened to it?

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Hi Guys, The Raider is a fantastic boat, I have sailed plenty on the various boats in Oz with the different rig heights and they all have their advantages.

I did Gladstone races on the AYS Raider with the original rig (plenty of fun weekends blasting short handed around the bay also), the One Design Raider(which was the best) and also did many regattas and Gladstone races on Board Wilparina the modified F31 with the straight lifting foils.

The Raider's would have been faster than Wilparina in most conditions with the exception of really lumpy offshore hard running.

I am sure Dragon/Timberolf would be a good step up in speed and somewhere between the Raider and Dragon would likely be Trilogy also for sale, an absolute glamour Grainger Trimaran that can fold.

All fantastic boats.

 

 

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20 hours ago, 40Plus said:

Thanks for all the info everyone, definitely leaning towards the Grainger Raider, neither TW or Dragon are demountable so it makes impractical to ship either of those two to N.A. 

 

I understand there was a Grainger Raider on US East coast, anyone know what happened to it?

I believe she was sold to someone in Europe a few years ago.

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I would suggest you look at Taeping and Flat Chat but I'd rather see them come back to Australia. 

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They bought Dragon and are shipping it on deck to Vancouver..... to start in R2AK and win...

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20 hours ago, SeaGul said:

So they didnt take the advice of the Raider? 

https://teampearshapedracing.wordpress.com/2017/12/03/she-comes-from-a-land-down-under/

Very interesting.

 

But why not start in the R2AK 2018?? ...in 2019 the winner will foil all the way...even rowing...

 

 

No one really thinks that the raider will be as good as it is in light air, everyone thinks the tri's will win, but turns out the raider is an all around weapon.

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3 hours ago, darth reapius said:

No one really thinks that the raider will be as good as it is in light air, everyone thinks the tri's will win, but turns out the raider is an all around weapon.

Dragon would be much faster than a raider. 

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4 hours ago, cazza said:

Dragon would be much faster than a raider. 

well - you might think that - but if you look at the rating from NZ - the Silverraider rated higher (Maybe not a std Raider)....   and  the Seacart 30 even higher. 

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6 hours ago, SeaGul said:

well - you might think that - but if you look at the rating from NZ - the Silverraider rated higher (Maybe not a std Raider)....   and  the Seacart 30 even higher. 

I have raced against both dragon and several raiders in a Sea Cart 30, the only raider that I have seen on the water that would come close to dragon is the Aus "red boat" (ex Indian chief). I don't know of silver raider, but the red boat aside from the hull shape, nothing about it is standard (and it may even be slightly longer as well). 

But there really is only 1 way to settle this, so who's going to take their raider to the R2AK? 

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And the Seacart 30? - I would say thats a perfect R2AK boat... but they are still pricy...

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On 12/5/2017 at 9:49 PM, paulnudd said:

I would suggest you look at Taeping and Flat Chat but I'd rather see them come back to Australia. 

Are they 4 sale again..?

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6 hours ago, cazza said:

I have raced against both dragon and several raiders in a Sea Cart 30, the only raider that I have seen on the water that would come close to dragon is the Aus "red boat" (ex Indian chief). I don't know of silver raider, but the red boat aside from the hull shape, nothing about it is standard (and it may even be slightly longer as well). 

But there really is only 1 way to settle this, so who's going to take their raider to the R2AK? 

Indian Chief only ever out paced the Seacart 30, Morticia in strong offshore conditions both up and down wind. Running in 20-25 knots it was significantly faster due to being able to carry more sail in those conditions. In the light airs Morticia would smoke me. We did manage to carry our upwind screecher longer than them in a race at the Nationals in Port Lincoln and passed them that time, but shit we had a bit on..... i remember my crewman, Flano screaming at me that we were about the break the carbon bow pole he'd made and the front beam was deflecting more than he liked. We fixed that problem later by putting another beam from the front to the main beam. During the 2013 Crowther offshore race we had one of the best drag races ever with Mortica. We rounded the last mark together and headed off to the finish some 5 miles away. We were side by side all the way within a boat length tight reaching from Maitland Reef to Barrenjoey doing 20s, what a ride, hull flying and nose down all the way. Over all Morticia certainly had the honours on Indian Chief. Keeping in mind that mostly the conditions were predominately sailed in the lighter wind zone. Of recent years the Chief hasn't been campaigned all that much nor have we seen the sorts of results we achieved but in the hands of the new owners, All Yacht Spars Team, I think we'll soon see the Chief lite up again. We had tremendous success with one Nationals win in 2012 and three 2nds and a third, never any worse than a third. We were never beaten on OMR by another catamaran at the 5 nationals we sailed from 2008 until our last Nationals in 2014. 

photo[3].JPG

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20 hours ago, cazza said:

Dragon would be much faster than a raider. 

Depends which Raider. I doubt that some of the raiders would be beaten by much by Dragon if beaten at all. My old man had a custom raider built and it was freaking quick, no boat in the state of Western Australia could beat it. Sadly no boats like Dragon to race against over here. But it was built a little narrower, lighter and with a bigger rig than the standard Raider.

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I wonder how would a Reynolds 33 compare to a fast Raider?  They're somewhat easier to find in the US (though few for sale).

http://www.sailboatsflorida.com/33_Reynolds_R33_Winddrum.html

- 33ft x 16ft (i.e. narrow, some are even just 14ft beam)

- 45ft mast (some are 48ft)

- ~1300-1600kg (2800-3500lbs)

By the looks of it, a bit longer than a Raider, similar mast, similar weight -- but a lot narrower so less righting moment.  Should lift early in light air, but not do too well in stronger breeze (various have capsized based on an older SA thread).

Too bad in general there aren't more of these fast smaller multis outside of NZ/AUS.

 

 

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3 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Depends which Raider. I doubt that some of the raiders would be beaten by much by Dragon if beaten at all. My old man had a custom raider built and it was freaking quick, no boat in the state of Western Australia could beat it. Sadly no boats like Dragon to race against over here. But it was built a little narrower, lighter and with a bigger rig than the standard Raider.

I should have said standard raider. Certainly the red boat was hard for us to catch in the SC 30 in over 20, especially offshore as we had to reduce sail earlier, and could not push as hard on a reach or run, I'd even say it was quicker on big days, but over the course of a regatta or any significant distance (for a 30 footer) offshore where there are varied conditions There was little doubt which boat had it overall, and while the SC seems to be faster than dragon, for the same reasons I think she would prove to be quicker than the standard raider and more often than not be in front of the faster raiders. 

A bit about the red boat, she is one of the highest build quality and best maintained multis in the Aus fleet, has SC30 mast, rudders and daggers, I'm not sure if the beams are also marstrom but they are carbon. It is a seriously cool boat, and I'd be very surprised if a faster raider exists. 

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5 hours ago, Indian Chief said:

Indian Chief only ever out paced the Seacart 30, Morticia in strong offshore conditions both up and down wind. Running in 20-25 knots it was significantly faster due to being able to carry more sail in those conditions. In the light airs Morticia would smoke me. We did manage to carry our upwind screecher longer than them in a race at the Nationals in Port Lincoln and passed them that time, but shit we had a bit on..... i remember my crewman, Flano screaming at me that we were about the break the carbon bow pole he'd made and the front beam was deflecting more than he liked. We fixed that problem later by putting another beam from the front to the main beam. During the 2013 Crowther offshore race we had one of the best drag races ever with Mortica. We rounded the last mark together and headed off to the finish some 5 miles away. We were side by side all the way within a boat length tight reaching from Maitland Reef to Barrenjoey doing 20s, what a ride, hull flying and nose down all the way. Over all Morticia certainly had the honours on Indian Chief. Keeping in mind that mostly the conditions were predominately sailed in the lighter wind zone. Of recent years the Chief hasn't been campaigned all that much nor have we seen the sorts of results we achieved but in the hands of the new owners, All Yacht Spars Team, I think we'll soon see the Chief lite up again. We had tremendous success with one Nationals win in 2012 and three 2nds and a third, never any worse than a third. We were never beaten on OMR by another catamaran at the 5 nationals we sailed from 2008 until our last Nationals in 2014. 

photo[3].JPG

That was without doubt one of the best days on the water I have had Mav.

Yet for some reason no one likes Pittwater...

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On 12/5/2017 at 12:25 AM, SeaGul said:

So they didnt take the advice of the Raider? 

https://teampearshapedracing.wordpress.com/2017/12/03/she-comes-from-a-land-down-under/

Very interesting.

 

But why not start in the R2AK 2018?? ...in 2019 the winner will foil all the way...even rowing...

 

 

Not sure about foiling all the way, would be awesome to see. As for not doing the 2018 R2AK, a lot of reasons why, mainly everyone's work schedules. For me, I did the race in 2016, 2017 and it takes a lot of time to get a boat ready,  I don't mind the break. Dragon won't be arriving until January and we aren't going to rush the process of preparation. Add to the we want to do some races here in PNW, new sails, proper pedal drives system, it all takes time. 

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On 12/5/2017 at 3:14 AM, SeaGul said:

They bought Dragon and are shipping it on deck to Vancouver..... to start in R2AK and win...

I will say the winning part is a tongue in cheek comment on our blog, reality is we want to finish and enjoy the adventure. 

 

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23 hours ago, cazza said:

I have raced against both dragon and several raiders in a Sea Cart 30, the only raider that I have seen on the water that would come close to dragon is the Aus "red boat" (ex Indian chief). I don't know of silver raider, but the red boat aside from the hull shape, nothing about it is standard (and it may even be slightly longer as well). 

But there really is only 1 way to settle this, so who's going to take their raider to the R2AK? 

Interesting comments regarding the SC30, Raiders and Dragon, all awesome boats! We certainly had a great list of boats to look at and to be honest the SC30 was at the top of the list for obvious reasons, Dragon and the Raider were #2a and #2b. The only available SC30 was certainly pricey and would need some additional gear and sails making the overall cost out of reach.  For us we felt that Dragon would be a better boat for this area than a standard Raider, the fact that we are already familiar with Tris vs Cats made the choice relatively easy. In the end we went with a boat that we simply felt comfortable sailing, plus  there is the speed vs budget equation. I will say that the owners of Dragon were amazing to deal with, total gentleman and great to sail with, they made what would have been a very difficult process of shipping Dragon to the PNW very easy for us. 

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1 hour ago, 40Plus said:

I will say the winning part is a tongue in cheek comment on our blog, reality is we want to finish and enjoy the adventure. 

 

Suuuuure you are - you just want those steak knives (and to keep a bit warmer on the course!)

 

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16 minutes ago, Chidz said:

Suuuuure you are - you just want those steak knives (and to keep a bit warmer on the course!)

 

Having a cabin is going to nice! The steak knives are indeed cool but I will say it again, just finishing this race is pretty satisfying in itself. 

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Just now, 40Plus said:

Having a cabin is going to nice! The steak knives are indeed cool but I will say it again, just finishing this race is pretty satisfying in itself. 

Yes - I dream (just in the process of replying to Guy on email ....)

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Nothing wrong with going for the win in a regatta - isnt that what all is supposed to do...  

Said it before - I see the SC30 as maybe the ideal boat for this R2AK race - if your in it for winning. But they are expensive - because they are very good made boats and can make that race rather easy. 

I dont know the Dragon in detail - but i seems like well thought out boat with the right stuff to go really fast too. So if you can make it solid and tuff enough to make the race - and also learn to sail it really hard - and be prepared for the job - its a potential winner. 

Neither Dragon or a SC30 can beat a M32 - if there is light conditions and the sailors are as good as Randy - but if its rougher they can. 

One of my other favorites is the Crowther Shockwave 37 - that has started before - I think that also can be a winner in rough conditions. Seems its for sale for a rather good prize?  

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