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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Tornado-Cat

Who is the new CoR and what kind of AC will the want ?

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It's end of an era, the end of GGYC as defender, perhaps the end of Bermudas as a venue.

The CoR already sent his challenge which as already been accepted and signed by TNZ, who are they ? what will they want ?

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I'd love to see strict nationality rules for the designers, construction, helm, tactician, etc., but it'd probably keep some of the big money (Tornqvist, Bertarelli, maybe Bertelli, who would be the most important guy) out of it if they have to rely on home-grown talent only.

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17 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

From Catsailingnews....

20170626_ac35live_rp0435.jpg

Hey its Sad Max.  And he has a smile on his face.  Good for him.  :rolleyes:

That doesn't mean anything because Sirena is on ETNZ's payroll.  Isn't he?

2zp82md.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, Jazz Freak said:

Confirmation of the worst kept secret in the AC.

I do find this bit interesting from LR's announcement:

Quote

RNZYS and its representative team, Emirates Team New Zealand, look forward to working with CVS and Luna Rossa Challenge to create an exciting future for the event by combining innovation with the traditional sporting values of the America's Cup.

The bolded bit is the interesting part, actually.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, WetHog said:

Confirmation of the worst kept secret in the AC.

I do find this bit interesting from LR's announcement:

The bolded bit is the interesting part, actually.

WetHog  :ph34r:

I think they will do a great job Hoggie.

Both ETNZ and Luna Rossa have suffered the most under Oracle's reign. I don't think they will want to see that sort of behaviour continue.

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Just now, jaysper said:

I think they will do a great job Hoggie.

Both ETNZ and Luna Rossa have suffered the most under Oracle's reign. I don't think they will want to see that sort of behaviour continue.

I am skeptical, in regards to LR.  The way they bitched out for AC34 caused me to lose a lot of respect for that team.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Just now, WetHog said:

I am skeptical, in regards to LR.  The way they bitched out for AC34 caused me to lose a lot of respect for that team.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Prior to AC34, LR were always a tough competitor. Remember 2000 , 2003 & 2007?

They did what they did in AC34 & 35 because supporting ETNZ was the best way they could bring about the end of Oracle's reign.

Now they will work hard with ETNZ to make the event better and then challenge as hard as they fucking can.

I don't think their collective vision will match everything I want for the cup (monos, 30 minute legs, etc) but it will be better at least.

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I'm getting...

"by combining innovation" = wing sail foiling cats

"with the traditional sporting values of the America's Cup." = 80% nationality

 

...or not... They already obviously agree on a general concept-- we'll have to see how long it takes them to hammer out all of the details.

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7 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Prior to AC34, LR were always a tough competitor. Remember 2000 , 2003 & 2007?

They did what they did in AC34 & 35 because supporting ETNZ was the best way they could bring about the end of Oracle's reign.

Now they will work hard with ETNZ to make the event better and then challenge as hard as they fucking can.

I don't think their collective vision will match everything I want for the cup (monos, 30 minute legs, etc) but it will be better at least.

Monos?  Why would that be interesting?  AC is about pushing the envelope, how would monos do that? They are slow and after the current boats they would be soooooo boring.  We already have too many of them in the olympics, why repeat the same old fart's sport to the AC?

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Prior to AC34, LR were always a tough competitor. Remember 2000 , 2003 & 2007?

They did what they did in AC34 & 35 because supporting ETNZ was the best way they could bring about the end of Oracle's reign.

Now they will work hard with ETNZ to make the event better and then challenge as hard as they fucking can.

I don't think their collective vision will match everything I want for the cup (monos, 30 minute legs, etc) but it will be better at least.

I remember what they did in 2000, 2003 and 2007.  They were a quality team that were competitive from the start.  They broke my heart in 2000 when they beat The Stache and America One, and they did the same in 2007 when JS made Dicko his bitch in the LVC Semi's.  

I will disagree vehemently with you in regards to LR being ETNZ's bitch for AC34 as the best way LR could bring to an end OR's reign.  No the best way would of been for Patrizio Bertelli to get his balls back from his sugar mamma wife and actually try during AC34.  Not go the poodle route.  If LR actually lived up to the reputation it built in 2000, 2003 and 2007 for AC34 then maybe they actually give ETNZ competition in the AC34 LVC finals to the point ETNZ have to develop a higher gear to beat LR and that higher gear maybe doesn't allow ETNZ to blow a 8 to fucking 1 lead. 

So, yeah, I am skeptical of LR as COR until Patrizio Bertelli proves he got his balls back.  The protocol for AC36 will say one way or the other.

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

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Presser (GD): they have a plan and it will be revealed over the next few weeks for stability of the event. Wouldn't discuss mono vs multi. Will be in Auckland. 

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At least if they go mono it'll make the challenger series simple. They wont need one.

Nationality of the crew? The crowd is baying. Doesn't mean it has anything to do with the traditions of the cup. We're already seeing what a complete and utter joke that will be with the money shuffling around to run a team out of the country of their helm.

Traditional sporting values must surely mean the defender paddling their own canoe until the AC. Bigger boats would be the other thing, but bigger boats will make I harder for the cheep larger and sun cream teams to stay in/enter the Cup.

Lots has been said, lets hope it gets sorted soon (some chance)

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Whatever it is, decide it, let it stay decided. Same with venue. Same with conditions in which racing will occur.

Then see who turns up.

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And let's hope they will agree for a free world-wide TV-coverage! Tired to have to fight to have just some bad resolution and lagy pictures for such a important event! Back to the live youtube multichannel!

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36 minutes ago, WetHog said:

I remember what they did in 2000, 2003 and 2007.  They were a quality team that were competitive from the start.  They broke my heart in 2000 when they beat The Stache and America One, and they did the same in 2007 when JS made Dicko his bitch in the LVC Semi's.  

I will disagree vehemently with you in regards to LR being ETNZ's bitch for AC34 as the best way LR could bring to an end OR's reign.  No the best way would of been for Patrizio Bertelli to get his balls back from his sugar mamma wife and actually try during AC34.  Not go the poodle route.  If LR actually lived up to the reputation it built in 2000, 2003 and 2007 for AC34 then maybe they actually give ETNZ competition in the AC34 LVC finals to the point ETNZ have to develop a higher gear to beat LR and that higher gear maybe doesn't allow ETNZ to blow a 8 to fucking 1 lead. 

So, yeah, I am skeptical of LR as COR until Patrizio Bertelli proves he got his balls back.  The protocol for AC36 will say one way or the other.

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Well, if its not a good Protocol, then they can get fucked.

I don't think it will necessarily be as good as the '95 and 00 protocols due to compromises with Bertelli, but will be better I'm sure.

We will see :)

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I think we'll see soft-sail foiling cats and based of GD's comments there will be less emphasis on hyrdo and more on sailing skill

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12 minutes ago, rgeek said:

At least if they go mono it'll make the challenger series simple. They wont need one.

Nationality of the crew? The crowd is baying. Doesn't mean it has anything to do with the traditions of the cup. We're already seeing what a complete and utter joke that will be with the money shuffling around to run a team out of the country of their helm.

Traditional sporting values must surely mean the defender paddling their own canoe until the AC. Bigger boats would be the other thing, but bigger boats will make I harder for the cheep larger and sun cream teams to stay in/enter the Cup.

Lots has been said, lets hope it gets sorted soon (some chance)

Why would monos mean no challenger series? That statement makes ZERO sense to me.

With regards to nationality, too hard to enforce without being draconian so I hope they leave that alone.

Bigger boats won't prevent teams from competing. They cost is in the R&D not the build.

You could have a competition between a handful of Doug Lord's radio control boats (which are cool despite Doug being a bit of a loon) and the teams would still find a way to spend $80 Million on making theirs the fastest remote control boat out there.

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3 minutes ago, ezyb said:

I think we'll see soft-sail foiling cats and based of GD's comments there will be less emphasis on hyrdo and more on sailing skill

I would hope for Cats with foils and soft sail. I completely agree with him that we did not see sailors but slaves pumping for oil pressure.

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GD, in the presser, when asked about the future direction, talked about the fragmentation of sailing at the top, Volvo, Vendee, TP52, for example. Answering the same question he emphasized the responsibility of holding the Cup, rather than the right. He also said the Americas Cup is the pinnacle of them all.

I interpreted that to mean his idea, as he put it, would be respectful of the traditions of the original Deed, and re-connect the spiritual disparity between AC boats and the big mono races that he spoke so fondly about just then.

So foiling cats are gone, imo. Big, super fast monos is my guess.

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I have a suspicion that the boats will basically be the same, foiling cats. But without the accumulators. Basically a larger AC45. 

 

The major difference will be that they will have to be able to sail in the gulf not a lagoon. 

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All the other teams have stated a preference for multihulls.

The only other principle who's gone public at this point is EB and he's quoted as saying "high performance", "multihull" and "the current boat make it easiest to get involved".

If the new CoR really has said mono or multi let the defender decide .. well the DoG says the challenger names the parameters of the boat for a DoG challenge, so I'm guessing the traditionalists must be searching for horses heads already?

Would love to see bigger boats personally, but if the objective is more teams then that would be counter productive.

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GD: no 80% rule, going to have more of a national basis but also recognise the barrier to entry it creates and not put a lot of blokes out of work. going to move fast on an agreement, didn't object to the principles of an agreement, just the content of the agreement it's self.

Big message was, integrity, level playing field ... as far as the AC can be level, and if you loose it, you loose it. So defender is not going to take part in the challenger series.

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57 minutes ago, StumbleNola said:

I have a suspicion that the boats will basically be the same, foiling cats. But without the accumulators. Basically a larger AC45. 

 

The major difference will be that they will have to be able to sail in the gulf not a lagoon. 

I read in one of the NZ rags last week that if ETNZ win they will defend on the waterfront in Auckland.  Not out in the gulf so spectators don't have to take a boat out in the gulf to watch it.   Can't remember where I read that or I would provide a link.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, HP2 said:

GD, in the presser, when asked about the future direction, talked about the fragmentation of sailing at the top, Volvo, Vendee, TP52, for example.

...and talked about more alignment with ISAF. Did anyone figure out where he was going with that?

1 hour ago, HP2 said:

Big, super fast monos is my guess.

I think so too. In the press conf he said that cycling isn't sailing and that these boats woudn't stand up in a swell.

I suspect big fast foiling / foil assisted monos, key point being a rule that creates headsail changes == crew.

No stored power, and a moderate nationality rule for onboard crew. I like the idea raised by various people here that the helmsman must be a national. That's really key to the patriotic angle.

The above formula would be a slight step backwards in terms of speed and sheer nervewracking edge-of-disaster entertainment.

But will make up for it with actual crew manouvres, sailing on the sea, and affordable tacks. Combine that with retaining the other advances in the format and presentation (with a few tweaks such as wider courses and slightly longer races) and it should be a ripper.

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you mean, a nice club which looks like a proper, existing club, not like the so called Royal spanish yacht club - i'm not sure that was the name, but it clearly made history, without organising any race!

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A shift in the type of boat would just be fucking nuts. The AC has spent 10 years wobbling and AC 35 provided a half-competitive event. 

But another hip-pocket poodle challenge does nothing to convince me that this isn't going to be yet another shambles. 

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3 hours ago, HP2 said:

GD, in the presser, when asked about the future direction, talked about the fragmentation of sailing at the top, Volvo, Vendee, TP52, for example. Answering the same question he emphasized the responsibility of holding the Cup, rather than the right. He also said the Americas Cup is the pinnacle of them all.

I interpreted that to mean his idea, as he put it, would be respectful of the traditions of the original Deed, and re-connect the spiritual disparity between AC boats and the big mono races that he spoke so fondly about just then.

So foiling cats are gone, imo. Big, super fast monos is my guess.

Yep he also said cats nosedive in 2m swells in the outer Gulf and wants to see sailing on open sea not lagoons or lakes. 

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8 minutes ago, minimumfuss said:

Yep he also said cats nosedive in 2m swells in the outer Gulf and wants to see sailing on open sea not lagoons or lakes. 

Trimarans turn around the world, and some cats did it too. I think the record around Isle of Wight is held by a Mod 70

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2 hours ago, eurochild said:

...and talked about more alignment with ISAF. Did anyone figure out where he was going with that?

I think so too. In the press conf he said that cycling isn't sailing and that these boats woudn't stand up in a swell.

I suspect big fast foiling / foil assisted monos, key point being a rule that creates headsail changes == crew.

No stored power, and a moderate nationality rule for onboard crew. I like the idea raised by various people here that the helmsman must be a national. That's really key to the patriotic angle.

The above formula would be a slight step backwards in terms of speed and sheer nervewracking edge-of-disaster entertainment.

But will make up for it with actual crew manouvres, sailing on the sea, and affordable tacks. Combine that with retaining the other advances in the format and presentation (with a few tweaks such as wider courses and slightly longer races) and it should be a ripper.

I don't buy it. Big foiling monohulls are going to be a massive problem, and the first time someone tries a hook with foils sticking out of the boat it will turn into a nightmare. The cats turned into pretty reasonable match rating, and I think with more time in the boats it will be even better, but I can't see it on a mustache boat. Short of going back to ACC class boats I just don't see monohulls. 

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A few facts for all you theorists.

Grant Dalton confirms agreement with Luna Rossa's club and say all will be revealed in the next couple of weeks.  However I'm sure stuff will leak out before then.

Dalton is not the arbiter of what boats will be sailed.  That's up to an agreement between the Challenger and the Defender.

He didn't talk specifically about foiling cats nosediving in the swells in the Gulf.  He did say they'd need an appropriate design.

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3 hours ago, us7070 said:

 

looks like a nice club...

http://www.circolodellavela.it/ita/index.asp

Yeah but you have to dress like this to sail for them:

2sacs5w.jpg

2 hours ago, SingleHull said:

you mean, a nice club which looks like a proper, existing club, not like the so called Royal spanish yacht club - i'm not sure that was the name, but it clearly made history, without organising any race!

You mean good old CNEV:

550cqu.jpg

Better than a car on a beach though.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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4 hours ago, eurochild said:

...and talked about more alignment with ISAF. Did anyone figure out where he was going with that?

I think so too. In the press conf he said that cycling isn't sailing and that these boats woudn't stand up in a swell.

I suspect big fast foiling / foil assisted monos, key point being a rule that creates headsail changes == crew.

No stored power, and a moderate nationality rule for onboard crew. I like the idea raised by various people here that the helmsman must be a national. That's really key to the patriotic angle.

The above formula would be a slight step backwards in terms of speed and sheer nervewracking edge-of-disaster entertainment.

But will make up for it with actual crew manouvres, sailing on the sea, and affordable tacks. Combine that with retaining the other advances in the format and presentation (with a few tweaks such as wider courses and slightly longer races) and it should be a ripper.

I actually liked Ernies 90 (?) foot monos he was planning for AC33, despite Ernie being an A class prick.

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3 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

A few facts for all you theorists.

Grant Dalton confirms agreement with Luna Rossa's club and say all will be revealed in the next couple of weeks.  However I'm sure stuff will leak out before then.

Dalton is not the arbiter of what boats will be sailed.  That's up to an agreement between the Challenger and the Defender.

He didn't talk specifically about foiling cats nosediving in the swells in the Gulf.  He did say they'd need an appropriate design.

GC went straight on Facebook Live with the lads doing the Vodafone gig and said a whole bunch of things (I'm paraphrasing):

- Cant commit but wants to hold it off the City and not out in the gulf

- Will be more national but wont be 80%, will recognise that blokes need to make a living and the impact on new teams. "put it like this, if you want to sail for Japan you'll need to be Japanese". Definitely being mischievous at that point.

- Said he wanted to move fast. Didn't agree with the content of the London agreement, saw it as self serving, but recognised the attempt to give stability. You got the feeling that scope is already agreed.

- Big thing they talked about was integrity. Create fair rules in the spirit of the Cup. If you loose, you loose. No trying to bend the rules for advantage. So doubtful we'll be seeing the defender sailing in the challenger series or points carrying over.

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8 hours ago, eurochild said:

...and talked about more alignment with ISAF. Did anyone figure out where he was going with that?

I think so too. In the press conf he said that cycling isn't sailing and that these boats woudn't stand up in a swell.

I suspect big fast foiling / foil assisted monos, key point being a rule that creates headsail changes == crew.

No stored power, and a moderate nationality rule for onboard crew. I like the idea raised by various people here that the helmsman must be a national. That's really key to the patriotic angle.

The above formula would be a slight step backwards in terms of speed and sheer nervewracking edge-of-disaster entertainment.

But will make up for it with actual crew manouvres, sailing on the sea, and affordable tacks. Combine that with retaining the other advances in the format and presentation (with a few tweaks such as wider courses and slightly longer races) and it should be a ripper.

+ 1000

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it'll be interesting to see how far RNZYC go with the integrity angle. For instance will there be a defender series?

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4 minutes ago, rgeek said:

it'll be interesting to see how far RNZYC go with the integrity angle. For instance will there be a defender series?

What does that have to do with integrity? 

Integrity to me means a fair set of rules .

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2 minutes ago, rgeek said:

Fair to who?

Fair to other teams who want a crack at defending may be?

Fair between defender and challenger.

There is ZERO chance of a defender series because nz doesnt have the financial resources for it.

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Gitana-1.jpg

 

Of course. And let's see if the French get serious at last

 

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12 minutes ago, rgeek said:

it'll be interesting to see how far RNZYC go with the integrity angle. For instance will there be a defender series?

NZ can barely scrape enough bones together for 1 team

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That's talking out of the poor mouth.

 I'd the nationality of the helm is mandated there may be money out there to back someone other than PB. Will the ruled give them a fair shake?

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10 minutes ago, rgeek said:

I'd the nationality of the helm is mandated there may be money out there to back someone other than PB. Will the ruled give them a fair shake?

I reckon ETNZ would be thrilled to have a defender series.

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11 hours ago, ezyb said:

I think we'll see soft-sail foiling cats and based of GD's comments there will be less emphasis on hyrdo and more on sailing skill

Agree.  Taking out the hard wing will save quite a bit of money I reckon and make it easier to push back towards yachtsmen pulling strings, though unless they go the nacra quad-foiler (i.e. both daggerboards stay down), and limit the board angle change, then power is still going to be a significant requirement.  I don't like helm nationality rule....what if you are the best helmsman in the world but don't have a team from your country.  why should helmsmen be treated any differently than other positions.  Fine with 80% nationality, though if sailing crew is only 6 people, then think 2 guys from another country would be fine and would still have a national identity, so I think for smaller crews, you could drop that nationality requirement a bit.  Not sure the inner waitamata harbour is big enough.....why not sail off takapuna beach.....plenty of space, chance of some real wind and waves, still plenty of vantages from shore with the walkway along the beach and a big screen on the green.  Make TV coverage available on youtube and everyone can stream on their phones or tablets wherever they are.

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The boat is defined in the protocol which is negociated between the defender and the CoR.

Now, do you think the boat was defined by the CoR in the last two AC ? :)

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17 hours ago, ibsailn said:

 why should helmsmen be treated any differently than other positions.

Agree it's arbitrary but it's about fan perception. I'm a bit more educated about the AC than the average in the USA but I am susceptible to this. I was cheering for NZ this go around but I don't think I could have done that if there was a fellow countryman driving Oracle's boat. With the US flag, US sponsor, and US driver, my fan ethics would not allow me to root against them. Without the face behind the wheel I can more easily rationalize it as Larry's toy rather than something that actually represents the nation.

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By the way, this sure makes the AC more interesting, doesn't it..... I imagine the interest would start lagging had OR won the thing again and kept with the same direction.  The de-nationalizing of the cup, the OD nature of the event, etc. really made it FAR less interesting.  As much as I am of a homer for American sports, I was really hoping someone would take it away from the US, with the only reservation of it going to ETNZ is the possibility they would go back to lead-mines.  I have a feeling they are going to do very well with it, though, and make it much more interesting.  I look forward to a non-Oracle US challenger to get excited about.

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On 27/06/2017 at 7:29 AM, Bushman said:

rumour is  "mullet Boats "

Yeah boi,  Im into that,

 Mullet V Logans ?

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Just now, GauchoGreg said:

Kind of an aside, but does ownership/control of the AC.com website immediately go to ETNZ?

I remember in the back of my mind that all assets are transferred.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The boat is defined in the protocol which is negociated between the defender and the CoR.

Now, do you think the boat was defined by the CoR in the last two AC ? :)

You're right, of course.

I'd guess the bones of the Protocol were hashed out by Dalts and Max Sirena over many months, with input from designers, sailors and management both sides as the ideas progressed.

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4 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

You're right, of course.

I'd guess the bones of the Protocol were hashed out by Dalts and Max Sirena over many months, with input from designers, sailors and management both sides as the ideas progressed.

Most probably yes, but now Dalts is in business, he will have to listen to the different partners.

He needs to payback the money he received.

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56 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I remember in the back of my mind that all assets are transferred.

GauchoGreg  had asked:  "Kind of an aside, but does ownership/control of the AC.com website immediately go to ETNZ?"

And Jays is right. All trademarks, assets, corporate records, etc are transferred.  Aussie Ernie Taylor worked on securing trademarks and setting up continuity in Cup management back in the days when Royal Perth YC owned and defended the Cup.

Dunno whether the current ACEA was created specifically for AC35 or not.  If it was, GGYC/Oracle Racing will have to wind it up and transfer all relevant property and operations to Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron. I expect it will be up to them to decide how to proceed with the web site, it's design and content. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Most probably yes, but now Dalts is in business, he will have to listen to the different partners.

He needs to payback the money he received.

I thought I said pretty clearly that the draft Protocol is already the product of input from many interesting parties for both clubs.

Please explain WHAT money he received from WHOM?  We'd all love to know.

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44 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Dunno whether the current ACEA was created specifically for AC35 or not.  If it was, GGYC/Oracle Racing will have to wind it up and transfer all relevant property and operations to Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron. I expect it will be up to them to decide how to proceed with the web site, it's design and content.

 

It's nothing to do with ACEA. It is ACPI that owns assets for transfer of control (not transfer of ownership). Read the AC35 protocol.

 

1.1 (e) ACPI means America’s Cup Properties Incorporated, a company
incorporated in the State of New York, United States of America, the
holder of America’s Cup trade mark registrations and the licensor of
those marks;

 

49.4. Control of ACPI: A Challenger winning the America’s Cup in the Match
shall take control of ACPI in accordance with the terms of the Preincorporation
Agreement dated October 1, 1986 and the constitution of
ACPI.

 

ETNZ does not get its hands on ACEA's assets.

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3 hours ago, dogwatch said:

It's nothing to do with ACEA. It is ACPI that owns assets for transfer of control (not transfer of ownership). Read the AC35 protocol.

 

1.1 (e) ACPI means America’s Cup Properties Incorporated, a company
incorporated in the State of New York, United States of America, the
holder of America’s Cup trade mark registrations and the licensor of
those marks;

 

49.4. Control of ACPI: A Challenger winning the America’s Cup in the Match
shall take control of ACPI in accordance with the terms of the Preincorporation
Agreement dated October 1, 1986 and the constitution of
ACPI.

 

ETNZ does not get its hands on ACEA's assets.

I would really like to see the corporate paperwork for the ACEA, but as I understand it from the protocols it functionally ceased to exist the moment ETNZ won the cup. ACEA only had authority to act as a functionary for the challenger/defender and the moment the AC35 was over so was its authority. 

 

The organizing paperwork could have made the ACEA perpetual subject to ratification of the next AC, or dissolvable back to GGYC depending on how it was drafted. 

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An interesting question is who owns the IP for the TV production tools that were developed at significant cost in the AC34 cycle. Betcha it isn't ACPI and my WAG is that it isn't ACEA/GGYC either.

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AFAIAA,  there's been very little discussion in the media about LiveLine /Sportvision etc this time round. Or of umpire systems. 

 

Did they they do it in house, or contract out? If contracted, one would assume that the IP remains with the subcontractor 

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The hardware is owned by ACRM I believe, and Chef (Mike Sheffield) is the one that managed it this time around.  Stan came in at the end to help out; i just did 22 minutes with him that will be part of a long AC podcast that will drop when I am back on the mainland. Lots of interesting stuff if you're as geeky as me

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On 6/27/2017 at 7:27 PM, DT Wanderer said:

NZ can barely scrape enough bones together for 1 team

And yet we did and with a score line 8-1. Where was the Aussie team again? Oh...that's right. ;)

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7 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

I thought I said pretty clearly that the draft Protocol is already the product of input from many interesting parties for both clubs.

Please explain WHAT money he received from WHOM?  We'd all love to know.

Oh, I was just talking about the government money input.

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The hardware is owned by ACRM

Who owns ACRM?

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actually, it will likely be dissolved or merged into a new NZ-based entity very quickly.  The only thing that typically will continue in its current form is ACPI.

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On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 2:17 PM, Xlot said:

http://video.gazzetta.it/bertelli-che-bella-festa-kiwi-luna-rossa-torna-coppa-america/709063ca-5aa1-11e7-abf0-64ee5e755912

Answering TC's question, and from the horse's mouth: Bertelli likes both multihulls and monos, and it's up to the Defender to decide

Not really. The challenger, per deed of gift, has to specify the length of boat they are challenging with , then more details to follow. The defender responds, on the day of the match!, by identifying their boat. That's in the deed of gift.

However, the two parties are permitted, and usually do, work out a protocol ahead of time which includes the specification of the boats to be sailed, so it is an agreement between the two. Actually, a lot of the details are negotiated before the challenge is actually accepted. This is how the defender gets the protocol they want, they only accept a challenge from the guy who already agrees with their concept.

Remember Conner putting a cat up against NZ big mono? and Oracle putting a big tri against Alingi's cat. Those were deed of gift matches where no agreement was made between the challenger and the defender.

One of the tricky bits is that the first challenger to submit his challenge, per the deed, gets to be the challenger, so the defender has to be sly. In this case the RNYZ commodore was on the Italian yacht when the race was concluded and the Italian had his challenge ready, presumably no other potential challengers were permitted to be on board, precluding any of them submitting one first.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

actually, it will likely be dissolved or merged into a new NZ-based entity very quickly.  The only thing that typically will continue in its current form is ACPI.

Which makes me sceptical that ACRM owns expensive TV production assets or IP.

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On 2017-06-26 at 8:54 PM, bwwooster said:

I'd love to see strict nationality rules for the designers, construction, helm, tactician, etc., but it'd probably keep some of the big money (Tornqvist, Bertarelli, maybe Bertelli, who would be the most important guy) out of it if they have to rely on home-grown talent only.

In what way would the sport benefit from  nationallity rules? You could just argue just as well that sponors also should be "national" what ever that means in todays globalized corporate world or that sponsors. not be allowed at all.. AC has never been a national event and always been (more or less) dependent  on sugar dads and wealthy backers. 

The olympics are "national" but you don't se any foiling multis or 12's there right. Would the AC be better played in Lazers perhaps. 

Its Emirates Team New Zeeland, Oracle Team USA and Groupama Team France lets not forget that. 

If you think "nations" you just get it wrong.  Think Manchester United, Milan and Barcelona. Think McLarren Mercedes, Ferrari and Sauber bot NZ, USA and Sweden. 

Rommantic perhaps but that train has left the station (if it ever been there).

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12 minutes ago, TurboDiesel said:

In what way would the sport benefit from  nationallity rules? You could just argue just as well that sponors also should be "national" what ever that means in todays globalized corporate world or that sponsors. not be allowed at all.. AC has never been a national event and always been (more or less) dependent  on sugar dads and wealthy backers. 

The olympics are "national" but you don't se any foiling multis or 12's there right. Would the AC be better played in Lazers perhaps. 

Its Emirates Team New Zeeland, Oracle Team USA and Groupama Team France lets not forget that. 

If you think "nations" you just get it wrong.  Think Manchester United, Milan and Barcelona. Think McLarren Mercedes, Ferrari and Sauber bot NZ, USA and Sweden. 

Rommantic perhaps but that train has left the station (if it ever been there).

Careful, you sound like Jensen in "Network"

 

The Kiwis sure see it as a national effort and a lot of the fans base their rooting interest in it as well. It's not coincidence that Artemis' boat is blue with three yellow crowns.

 

Why don't the billionaires invest in their own people and develop their talents rather than just hiring the current hot names? It's worked for British cycling and there's no reason it can't work for Swedish (or American) sailing.

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50 minutes ago, TurboDiesel said:

In what way would the sport benefit from  nationallity rules? You could just argue just as well that sponors also should be "national" what ever that means in todays globalized corporate world or that sponsors. not be allowed at all.. AC has never been a national event and always been (more or less) dependent  on sugar dads and wealthy backers. 

The olympics are "national" but you don't se any foiling multis or 12's there right. Would the AC be better played in Lazers perhaps. 

Its Emirates Team New Zeeland, Oracle Team USA and Groupama Team France lets not forget that. 

If you think "nations" you just get it wrong.  Think Manchester United, Milan and Barcelona. Think McLarren Mercedes, Ferrari and Sauber bot NZ, USA and Sweden. 

Rommantic perhaps but that train has left the station (if it ever been there).

I have to agree.  While it would be fun to have a nationality rule, I'm not sure its feasible at this stage.  How do you handle someone like JS?  American wife and children (owns a home in the US I believe) but born in Australia.  Although having an Australian accent, he's as American as anyone else... If it's a passport rule, you're just going to have rich guys greasing the skids to get citizenship for guys they want and let's not forget too that there are countries where that will be easier to do than others. 

I like the idea of making the AC more of a nations event but I think that ship has sailed and could be more of nuisance to enforce than really accomplish anything.

 

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1 hour ago, 4pines said:

I like the idea of making the AC more of a nations event but I think that ship has sailed and could be more of nuisance to enforce than really accomplish anything.

Well, the good news is I suspect you're in luck, 4pines. Dalton and co will probably deal with the nuisance bit for you, suffer the compromise and the vitriol, and give you what you'd like, despite all the corporate fatalism that the thread above represents.

So when they do, be sure to raise a glass to them. It doesn't say on your profile where you're from but I hope you get a team to cheer for. Because there's few things more fun than a friendly competition between nations for a famous prize.

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I think this is great! We don't know whats going to happen, what will ETNZ do? What kind of boat will they choose? Mono or Multi? When? we know where but don't know how they will do it. This is what the AC is about, a challenger winning and shaping the next event, not stupid framework agreements.

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