strider470

Luna Rossa Challenge. AC 36

Recommended Posts

30 minutes ago, 17mika said:

Still I cannot believe why they did not put the ita flag the way it should be (i.e  green towards the bow)

Why should the green be towards the bow? Only the US has a law about forcing you to print flags backwards?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

Nice!

EHL-6IeW4AA3Tbt.jpg

Very stylish. Noticed their Woolmark sponsor, perhaps to pay for all those telltales. That bulb is uuuge. Looks like they lowride like the dolphin, designed for touchdowns. Camera pod on the side? Whats the ugly folded thing on the rail? Did someone forget to cut the windows? These things are all up foiling straight away and look mightily impressive.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JonRowe said:

Why should the green be towards the bow? Only the US has a law about forcing you to print flags backwards?

Why'd the kiwis do it then.

m3724_crop11015_2048x2048_proportional_15687911425B0D.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 17mika said:

Another pic

Still I cannot believe why they did not put the ita flag the way it should be (i.e  green towards the bow)

FB_IMG_1571431533753.jpg

Agree, Mika. Seems odd when the hoist on the il Tricolore flag is green, AIUI.

As it appears on the boat, it is upside-down! On the other hand, if depicted right way-up, the red trailing edge would bleed into the red blaze on the Luna Rossa livery. 1st world problems, eh? ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, See Level said:

Why'd the kiwis do it then.

m3724_crop11015_2048x2048_proportional_15687911425B0D.jpg

Think about the AW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back corner of that mainsail is pretty ugly at this point, really big crease, some tuning work on that flash harry boom to be done for sure!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

inline_image_preview.jpg?auto=compress,f

Google shows the Italian flag displayed as being correct?

Yes. The hoist is green.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

inline_image_preview.jpg?auto=compress,f

Google shows the Italian flag displayed as being correct?

I think the point being made is if you assume what the flag would look like if it was actually flying on deck, it would not be blowing forward towards the bow unless the boat was going backwards. Green would be forward and the trailing edge of the flag would be blown towards the stern. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, JustinL42 said:

I think the point being made is if you assume what the flag would look like if it was actually flying on deck, it would not be blowing forward towards the bow unless the boat was going backwards. Green would be forward and the trailing edge of the flag would be blown towards the stern. 

Surely its better to display it correctly though? Otherwise it would look like its backwards, especially on TV??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the flags traditionally ( esp on sailing boats ) all blew from aft to forward

( the wind was nearly always from abaft the beam  )

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, See Level said:

Why'd the kiwis do it then.

m3724_crop11015_2048x2048_proportional_15687911425B0D.jpg

Because the mast becomes the flagpole or the hoist. The flag on the Italian boat has no hoist, therefor it should always be displayed correctly.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A flag should never be shown in retreat. It should always be shown as if the pole is moving forward toward the direction of travel. Imagine if there was no wind and you were holding a flag staff with a flag attached on a battlefield.  The flag should be held high so all of your troops can see it. When advancing all can see that the flag is heading toward the enemy, pole first. When retreating all can see that the flag is heading away from the enemy, poke first. This is something plenty of us should remember from school or time in the service of our particular country. Please respect your flag. For those of us who have served in the forces, regardless of country, our flag is a symbol that actually means more than an identity tag. P.S. I am not an American. 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Because the mast becomes the flagpole or the hoist. The flag on the Italian boat has no hoist, therefor it should always be displayed correctly.

It was supposed to be sarcasm. but I don't have purple.

But nice succinct answer.

Not sarcasm.:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Children left in charge of the graphics. Unless the Italians are indeed in retreat. They do have Jimmy on their team......

Screenshot_20191019-122612_Chrome.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Salty Seacock said:

A flag should never be shown in retreat.

Do the Italians know any different?

Two world wars suggest not.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Back corner of that mainsail is pretty ugly at this point, really big crease, some tuning work on that flash harry boom to be done for sure!

This. Big crease visible in the first photo.

And also the weird folded pad to leeward of the jib - first photo looked like it might have been a real rough cover over the jib clew block but 2nd pic shows it to be more forward... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

What a job. 

DB3924B3-252E-4EA5-9C3D-65B87274F1EE.jpeg
 

Also, black window. Hiding the (non)boom?

Look at that keel..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Who gives a shit about the flag, fantastic looking boat that’s for sure.

Flags were meant to be flown upside down, but I totally agree. Enough with this flag etiquette. Let's focus on the boats, sailors and sailing.

I know. It is a bit much to ask, so carry on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Great to see the Red Moon boat up up and away. She looks awesome.

I agree. I think the Italians bring a little something extra to The Cup. It's more than competition. It's a style and passion, a determination that makes them more welcome than others. But that ginger kinda ruins my total commitment to this being my second team. Regressive therapy is not helping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

Do the Italians know any different?

Two world wars suggest not.

 For what it counts in this thread WW1 ended with victory for Italy. Just for the sake of my grandfather who fought it and was injured there. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_front_(World_War_I)

Not sure if Germans and Austrian would have been defeated in France if there had not been Italians to keep them engaged in a trench war on the Alps for 4 years.

I never heard of this Anglo Saxon rule about flag. Green is on the left.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, 17mika said:

Another pic

Still I cannot believe why they did not put the ita flag the way it should be (i.e  green towards the bow)

 

To me looks in the right way...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, go easy on the Italians. Their idiot Emperor dragged them into a war they had no interest in fighting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah I wasn't aware it was also some military doctrine, I respect flags, they're important symbols (although I would have loved NZ to have picked red peak or the silver fern in their recent referendum on their flag), but I'd never design one backwards as it simply wouldn't occur to me as a civvie, probably the same for Luna Rossa?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ita289 said:

 For what it counts in this thread WW1 ended with victory for Italy. Just for the sake of my grandfather who fought it and was injured there. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_front_(World_War_I)

Not sure if Germans and Austrian would have been defeated in France if there had not been Italians to keep them engaged in a trench war on the Alps for 4 years.

I never heard of this Anglo Saxon rule about flag. Green is on the left.

I thought  "green forward" was used in all ships. As a matter of fact I googled a bit and it is mostly about planes (for ex in ita the plane of the presidente del consiglio has it).

So I guess for boats really there is no rule, since I guess not a lot of big boats have flags painted on it.

Small boats (ex olympics) follow the rule you say (green left also on starboard).

So.. whatever :D as long as it is fast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, 17mika said:

So.. whatever :D as long as it is fast

To be honest, this strange "thing", when flying looks more faboulous to me

Screenshot_20191019-090743.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ollallero said:

To be honest, this strange "thing", when flying looks more faboulous to me

Screenshot_20191019-090743.png

Looks good to me too. Could they be on to something?

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, ollallero said:

Main work in progress in Prada style.    

Screenshot_20191019-084228.png

Screenshot_20191019-083952.png

Why are their helmets resplendent in Irish colours? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Varan said:

Wow, even their sails are pretty. 

They need to think on how the Pirelli and Prada logos line up though, nothing more annoying than straight lines that are just slightly off!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Boybland said:

They need to think on how the Pirelli and Prada logos line up though, nothing more annoying than straight lines that are just slightly off!

Alliteration is a bit bloody low rent too. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't like Red Moon's livery at all. It shows a total lack of imagination, IMO. Bunch of bumper stickers.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm hoping this is just the "test" boat colours, and match day Luna Rossa (boat 2) will be spruced up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, JonRowe said:

I'm hoping this is just the "test" boat colours, and match day Luna Rossa (boat 2) will be spruced up.

Two different Italian company logos like Pirelli and Prada don't look so good together. TNZ seem to have done theirs ok. That being said when your kicking in that much money youd want what you want. Placement could be better perhaps?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair the hull graphics line up with the designs for the TP52, so maybe they like the minimal look now? Is that "in" in fashion? I'm sure they can redo the sails before the ACWS if they choose?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/19/2019 at 1:10 AM, Forourselves said:

Because the mast becomes the flagpole or the hoist. The flag on the Italian boat has no hoist, therefor it should always be displayed correctly.

Wrong again!

meloni.png?fit=2048%2C2048px&ssl=1

The Italian Air Force responded to Il Messaggero, a Rome-based daily paper: “By aeronautical convention, you consider the front of the plane to be equivalent to a flag pole from which the flag is flying. So on one side of the fuselage you’ll see the flag with its usual orientation, while on the other side it is reversed.”

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But, in the end, who gives a shit with the flag?

Prada is a fashion company, so it is looking to style, not to old traditions. Period.

Do you guys think it is the only thing to discuss about LR?

I am much more interested about the boomless soliution and try to understand how they trim the sails as there are no winches...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/19/2019 at 12:10 AM, phill_nz said:

the flags traditionally ( esp on sailing boats ) all blew from aft to forward

( the wind was nearly always from abaft the beam  )

 

Thats the kinda knowledge I come to SA for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, ITA602 said:

But, in the end, who gives a shit with the flag?

Prada is a fashion company, so it is looking to style, not to old traditions. Period.

Do you guys think it is the only thing to discuss about LR?

I am much more interested about the boomless soliution and try to understand how they trim the sails as there are no winches...

So tell us about it....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, james3232 said:

Thats the kinda knowledge I come to SA for.

Really? Patrick O’Brian, Alexander Kent, C. S. Forester or Dudley Pope could have done that years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still waiting to see a video of LR sailing. It's exciting times with the 2 keeled boats vs the scow flatter hull designs and only time will tell if everyone's second boats will differ substantially. Testing time now is crucial to give them time to make their call's on boat 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So if ETNZ indeed build a mule as stated, perhaps it will have a flat scow-like bottom. Wouldn't expect them to change course midstream without some serious testing first.

 

Edit: Back to LR... I too am anxiously waiting to see some sailing videos. Sure has been quiet. Maybe they are on to something that they do not want to share. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Varan said:

So if ETNZ indeed build a mule as stated, perhaps it will have a flat scow-like bottom. Wouldn't expect them to change course midstream without some serious testing first.

I wouldn't think so, Veran. More likely to be a scaled version of something like, Flipper.

They obviously can't two-boat test - so they're likely to want to be able to test foil options, sails and controls etc. I doubt they'd learn much from a scaled-down scow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed, they seem to like their simulator. Just saying that if a scow-like B2 was a serious consideration, we would likely see it in their mule if indeed they build one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^It certainly brings up an interesting question: How much different to Flipper will ETNZs 2nd boat be? Assuming the simulations and sail testing match pretty well, I'd speculate - not much.

There's always the chance that boat 1 will be faster than boat 2. It's not like that's ever happened before, right! No wait....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Varan said:

So if ETNZ indeed build a mule as stated, perhaps it will have a flat scow-like bottom. Wouldn't expect them to change course midstream without some serious testing first.

 

Edit: Back to LR... I too am anxiously waiting to see some sailing videos. Sure has been quiet. Maybe they are on to something that they do not want to share. 

Yes possibly and interestingly I reckon the Ineos Video seemed processed as if to hide the boat in a clearer picture. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it would be likely ETNZ have discounted scow-like hulls.

Here's my theory on why: Simulate two hull forms (actually, the numbers will likely have been much higher). If the simulation says Flipper performs best (based on the design assumptions) build flipper as boat 1. If the sailing testing proves the simulation, discard all other options and look to simulate incremental gains on Flipper. Build that version, as Boat 2.

Now, if a Challenger comes up with 'a game changer', that you haven't tested..... Problem is getting enough data on competitors to reach that point.

But what the fuck would I know?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Now, if a Challenger comes up with 'a game changer', that you haven't tested.....

Would be fascinating to know which (if any) syndicates are frantically assessing options that they didn't (seriously) consider, that another syndicate has gone with. You'd think they'll probably rerun the relevant sims as due diligence at least to try to see what the other teams were thinking but would there likely be some options on display that other teams didn't look into in detail? Which boat if any will prove to be the consensus design for boat 2? Great stuff.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I think it would be likely ETNZ have discounted scow-like hulls.

Here's my theory on why: Simulate two hull forms (actually, the numbers will likely have been much higher). If the simulation says Flipper performs best (based on the design assumptions) build flipper as boat 1. If the sailing testing proves the simulation, discard all other options and look to simulate incremental gains on Flipper. Build that version, as Boat 2.

Now, if a Challenger comes up with 'a game changer', that you haven't tested..... Problem is getting enough data on competitors to reach that point.

But what the fuck would I know?

Apart from the first line IMO, your hypothesis is logic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, eurochild said:

Would be fascinating to know which (if any) syndicates are frantically assessing options that they didn't (seriously) consider, that another syndicate has gone with. You'd think they'll probably rerun the relevant sims as due diligence at least to try to see what the other teams were thinking but would there likely be some options on display that other teams didn't look into in detail? Which boat if any will prove to be the consensus design for boat 2? Great stuff.

Yep. I wonder if we'll see much design convergence with 2nd boats. As GD is on record as saying, the winning decisions have likely already been made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Apart from the first line IMO, your hypothesis is logic.

Ha, ha. Without the first line, I don't have a hypothesis, TC. Thanks for pointing that out. :-)

Edited by Sailbydate
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I think it would be likely ETNZ have discounted scow-like hulls.

Here's my theory on why: Simulate two hull forms (actually, the numbers will likely have been much higher). If the simulation says Flipper performs best (based on the design assumptions) build flipper as boat 1. If the sailing testing proves the simulation, discard all other options and look to simulate incremental gains on Flipper. Build that version, as Boat 2.

Now, if a Challenger comes up with 'a game changer', that you haven't tested..... Problem is getting enough data on competitors to reach that point.

But what the fuck would I know?

It's interesting that the two teams that have the longest amount of time of exposure/development/access to the rule have basically gone down one path and the the teams that have the least exposure/access to the rule have gone down another. I think that is by design from ETNZ's perspective. ETNZ will back themselves to beat LR and have effectively had the poms and the yanks spend a lot of time that I believe is a first generation boat, whilst ETNZ and LR have built second generation boats.

Don't be surprised if that when AM reappear in Florida for the northern hemisphere winter that the boat has had a saw taken to it somewhere...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Ha, ha. Without the first line, I don't have a hypothesis, TC. Thanks for pointing that out. :-)

^^ I still think your hypothesis can be correct without your first line, anyway, have a good day !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, NZL3481 said:

It's interesting that the two teams that have the longest amount of time of exposure/development/access to the rule have basically gone down one path and the the teams that have the least exposure/access to the rule have gone down another. I think that is by design from ETNZ's perspective. ETNZ will back themselves to beat LR and have effectively had the poms and the yanks spend a lot of time that I believe is a first generation boat, whilst ETNZ and LR have built second generation boats.

Don't be surprised if that when AM reappear in Florida for the northern hemisphere winter that the boat has had a saw taken to it somewhere...

There's something in what you say, I think, NZL. The difference seems to be in the design assumptions made. One camp assumes some displacement mode racing and the other camp, 100% flying. The hull designs at least, are influenced by those assumptions. But in the end, it's the bits bolted on which are going to make the most difference, IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ I still think your hypothesis can be correct without your first line, anyway, have a good day !

Thanks, TC.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

It's interesting that the two teams that have the longest amount of time of exposure/development/access to the rule have basically gone down one path and the the teams that have the least exposure/access to the rule have gone down another.

Good point but you could interpret this in different ways - for example that ETNZ and LR iterated to the current rule in a certain direction and brought some assumptions to the design, whereas the other 2 teams saw the rule afresh and had a "cleaner" sheet of paper. Taking an example, AM and INEOS have the less conventional bows, so certainly they would have given consideration to (read: modelled the hell out of) more "boatlike" bows a la ETNZ and LR. They made a deliberate and presumably well-considered decision to try something different for this new class.

I think if you're going to talk about Defender advantage a more fruitful place to go might be to talk about wind limits (see discussion a few pages back). If the designs differ in part based on assumptions about the relative importance of displacement vs transition vs foiling, then ETNZ delaying communication of wind limits, whilst presumably having some understanding in their design team of where they are going, seems a huge factor. Not that it's that straightforward of course - even with knowledge of wind limits you may be guessing at how the matchplay will work (in terms of the different phases), and of course you don't know the actual wind that will blow in 2021.

Edit: wind limit discussion was on the NZ thread not this one ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, eurochild said:

Good point but you could interpret this in different ways - for example that ETNZ and LR iterated to the current rule in a certain direction and brought some assumptions to the design, whereas the other 2 teams saw the rule afresh and had a "cleaner" sheet of paper. Taking an example, AM and INEOS have the less conventional bows, so certainly they would have given consideration to (read: modelled the hell out of) more "boatlike" bows a la ETNZ and LR. They made a deliberate and presumably well-considered decision to try something different for this new class.

I think if you're going to talk about Defender advantage a more fruitful place to go might be to talk about wind limits (see discussion a few pages back). If the designs differ in part based on assumptions about the relative importance of displacement vs transition vs foiling, then ETNZ delaying communication of wind limits, whilst presumably having some understanding in their design team of where they are going, seems a huge factor. Not that it's that straightforward of course - even with knowledge of wind limits you may be guessing at how the matchplay will work (in terms of the different phases), and of course you don't know the actual wind that will blow in 2021.

That's a card (wind limits) that is still to be played no doubt. A couple of teams would be in trouble if the minimum wind limit was 8 knots or less.

Keep in mind that Verdier has a bit of experience with scow bows. I'd think if he'd discounted the idea, you'd have to be very well researched to challenge it. His success rate of drawing very fast boats within a box rule is pretty hard to surpass.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

That's a card (wind limits) that is still to be played no doubt. A couple of teams would be in trouble if the minimum wind limit was 8 knots or less.

Keep in mind that Verdier has a bit of experience with scow bows. I'd think if he'd discounted the idea, you'd have to be very well researched to challenge it. His success rate of drawing very fast boats within a box rule is pretty hard to surpass.

I'm hearing there may not be wind limits within reason but multiple courses to compensate for the wind? I'm not familiar with the harbor's differing conditions and possible course locations etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

That's a card (wind limits) that is still to be played no doubt. A couple of teams would be in trouble if the minimum wind limit was 8 knots or less.

Keep in mind that Verdier has a bit of experience with scow bows. I'd think if he'd discounted the idea, you'd have to be very well researched to challenge it. His success rate of drawing very fast boats within a box rule is pretty hard to surpass.

It's almost a certainty that the lower wind limit will be less than 8 knots, anyone who hasn't designed for this simply didn't read the design brief properly, nobody is going to put a code zero on a foiler that only sails in 10+ knots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So tell us about it....

Only thing I know is that Cariboni was wearing a LR shirt at the ceremony, so he is part of the team (and has provided most of the hydraulics for the foils to all teams).

They are playing something strange below deck.

About my comment...

This thread has been quiet for long because there were no news about the boat. Yesterday the most hot topic was the flag direction. We, Italians I mean, tend to speak even if we have nothing important to say. But that's not my habit. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

Don't be surprised if that when AM reappear in Florida for the northern hemisphere winter that the boat has had a saw taken to it somewhere...

Theres a limit to how much they can modify it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ITA602 said:

Only thing I know is that Cariboni was wearing a LR shirt at the ceremony, so he is part of the team (and has provided most of the hydraulics for the foils to all teams).

They are playing something strange below deck.

About my comment...

This thread has been quiet for long because there were no news about the boat. Yesterday the most hot topic was the flag direction. We, Italians I mean, tend to speak even if we have nothing important to say. But that's not my habit. 

I can't recall where the information of a below-deck mainsail control system came from - was it a team or close-to-team source? Are we barking up the wrong tree?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, JonRowe said:

Theres a limit to how much they can modify it...

Though nobody knew the rule before ETNZ and LR, presumably teams could have started looking at different assumed rule directions and may have concluded a foiling mono was a possibility that needed study. The next obvious thing to look at would be takeoff; it may not be the case that the two scow teams are playing catch up on that aspect of the design. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

Though nobody knew the rule before ETNZ and LR, presumably teams could have started looking at different assumed rule directions and may have concluded a foiling mono was a possibility that needed study. The next obvious thing to look at would be takeoff; it may not be the case that the two scow teams are playing catch up on that aspect of the design. 

I don't know why my post was relative to yours :lol: I meant that there isn't going to be that many modifications to American Magic when it comes back in Florida, the rule prevents significant modifications to the boat.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, buckdouger said:

I can't recall where the information of a below-deck mainsail control system came from - was it a team or close-to-team source? Are we barking up the wrong tree?

Max? Maybe said " you're looking at it" in reference to the boom. Edit: or lack of

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JonRowe said:

I don't know why my post was relative to yours :lol: I meant that there isn't going to be that many modifications to American Magic when it comes back in Florida, the rule prevents significant modifications to the boat.

Yeah the link was tenuous, sorry!

The missing connection was - they may not want to modify it much; they may have been studying the hull shape aspect of their design for quite a bit longer than we think and are very comfortable with where they branched off relative to competitors. As with all engineered things, few features are better or worse than an alternative in isolation. Underlying each teams' designs are their assumptions about lots of things. I imagine it would take a huge turnaround to back out of a design direction. If you were doing it based on spy data, you would think you'd need to be seeing major increased performance (and think about the uncertainties in measuring competitor performance, the fact that you won't have observed them in all conditions, etc), and then you would need a lot of time. 

The way we are hearing the build schedule discussed, that would seem to be a challenge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

s - they may not want to modify it much; they may have been studying the hull shape aspect of their design for quite a bit longer than we think and are very comfortable with where they branched off relative to competitors. A

And you have to weigh those risks of new directions against the subterfuge that teams are capable of. Especially etnz. The Italian Guys mentioned "be surprised" in regards to the kiwi final foil design. And never forget the padded jerseys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the Italian tradition of a nice static pose, but when are we going to see some footage of it actually moving?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Sardine

Capture.thumb.PNG.b7890e4202d6a81217fed1b7160986eb.PNG

What's going on at the clew of that mainsail? Looks like a fold of excess cloth but that seems far too simplistic...

Got to say I like the style of the Sardine, the helm and afterguard do look quite exposed though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, NZK said:

What's going on at the clew of that mainsail? Looks like a fold of excess cloth but that seems far too simplistic...

Got to say I like the style of the Sardine, the helm and afterguard do look quite exposed though...

It's almost like something has got snagged around the bottom of the sail a little forward of the clew.  I have to say that aside the rest of the rig looks pretty darn slick, in fact the whole boat looks beautifully finished.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t see how this system is going to produce a very dynamic way of manipulating the mainsail. Tugging the Main with some rope on the bottom?? As Glen Ashby said  of the Americans sail trimming in the last cup. ‘ you don’t fly a 747 with a piece of string’

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually in a small way you do.....(747 400 series)

The last of the real steam driven, slide rule designed, drawn on a sheet of paper  wide bodies.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, uflux said:

I don’t see how this system is going to produce a very dynamic way of manipulating the mainsail. Tugging the Main with some rope on the bottom?? As Glen Ashby said  of the Americans sail trimming in the last cup. ‘ you don’t fly a 747 with a piece of string’

It's still got to better than letting the MCAS do it!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2019 at 9:19 AM, uflux said:

I don’t see how this system is going to produce a very dynamic way of manipulating the mainsail. Tugging the Main with some rope on the bottom?? As Glen Ashby said  of the Americans sail trimming in the last cup. ‘ you don’t fly a 747 with a piece of string’

This is where you will never see or witness the internal manipulation that is going on inside the twin skins. We will be left speculating how a simple mainsheet can exert such varying degrees of control. Simple answer - the mainsheet isn't......

But - Batten technology, with electro, hyrdraulic or mechanical (string) manipulation, 3Di skins, D-section mast and independant mainsheets will be more than enough to give a good mainsail trimmer a headache........ Yes the zones of manipulation are only the bottom 1.0m and top 3.0m but that will do.

The shots from directly astern showing the foil shape they create and depth between skins is where they simultaneously create power at low drag. Keeping both sides fully energised without stalling either side will be the key ( and hence why we are seeing tell tales everywhere).

Remember the apparent is only moving 13 degrees( I believe I have read this number somewhere - but don't quote me) aft between upwind to downwind angles when on the foils..... So large rotation of the D mast or setting the mainsail uber deep and wide is not on the agenda. They will be seeking low drag shapes as much as max power shapes. So aero treatments to deck, foot and crew hideouts will matter. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/26/2019 at 6:19 PM, uflux said:

I don’t see how this system is going to produce a very dynamic way of manipulating the mainsail. Tugging the Main with some rope on the bottom?? As Glen Ashby said  of the Americans sail trimming in the last cup. ‘ you don’t fly a 747 with a piece of string’

If you have enough purchase, it's amazing what you can do with a piece of string!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, nroose said:

If you have enough purchase, it's amazing what you can do with a piece of string!

I think I would put my money on a hydraulic ram...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites