strider470

Luna Rossa Challenge. AC 36

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12 hours ago, ITA602 said:

But, in the end, who gives a shit with the flag?

Prada is a fashion company, so it is looking to style, not to old traditions. Period.

Do you guys think it is the only thing to discuss about LR?

I am much more interested about the boomless soliution and try to understand how they trim the sails as there are no winches...

So tell us about it....

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10 hours ago, james3232 said:

Thats the kinda knowledge I come to SA for.

Really? Patrick O’Brian, Alexander Kent, C. S. Forester or Dudley Pope could have done that years ago.

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Still waiting to see a video of LR sailing. It's exciting times with the 2 keeled boats vs the scow flatter hull designs and only time will tell if everyone's second boats will differ substantially. Testing time now is crucial to give them time to make their call's on boat 2.

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So if ETNZ indeed build a mule as stated, perhaps it will have a flat scow-like bottom. Wouldn't expect them to change course midstream without some serious testing first.

 

Edit: Back to LR... I too am anxiously waiting to see some sailing videos. Sure has been quiet. Maybe they are on to something that they do not want to share. 

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1 minute ago, Varan said:

So if ETNZ indeed build a mule as stated, perhaps it will have a flat scow-like bottom. Wouldn't expect them to change course midstream without some serious testing first.

I wouldn't think so, Veran. More likely to be a scaled version of something like, Flipper.

They obviously can't two-boat test - so they're likely to want to be able to test foil options, sails and controls etc. I doubt they'd learn much from a scaled-down scow.

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Agreed, they seem to like their simulator. Just saying that if a scow-like B2 was a serious consideration, we would likely see it in their mule if indeed they build one.

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^It certainly brings up an interesting question: How much different to Flipper will ETNZs 2nd boat be? Assuming the simulations and sail testing match pretty well, I'd speculate - not much.

There's always the chance that boat 1 will be faster than boat 2. It's not like that's ever happened before, right! No wait....

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41 minutes ago, Varan said:

So if ETNZ indeed build a mule as stated, perhaps it will have a flat scow-like bottom. Wouldn't expect them to change course midstream without some serious testing first.

 

Edit: Back to LR... I too am anxiously waiting to see some sailing videos. Sure has been quiet. Maybe they are on to something that they do not want to share. 

Yes possibly and interestingly I reckon the Ineos Video seemed processed as if to hide the boat in a clearer picture. 

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I think it would be likely ETNZ have discounted scow-like hulls.

Here's my theory on why: Simulate two hull forms (actually, the numbers will likely have been much higher). If the simulation says Flipper performs best (based on the design assumptions) build flipper as boat 1. If the sailing testing proves the simulation, discard all other options and look to simulate incremental gains on Flipper. Build that version, as Boat 2.

Now, if a Challenger comes up with 'a game changer', that you haven't tested..... Problem is getting enough data on competitors to reach that point.

But what the fuck would I know?

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38 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Now, if a Challenger comes up with 'a game changer', that you haven't tested.....

Would be fascinating to know which (if any) syndicates are frantically assessing options that they didn't (seriously) consider, that another syndicate has gone with. You'd think they'll probably rerun the relevant sims as due diligence at least to try to see what the other teams were thinking but would there likely be some options on display that other teams didn't look into in detail? Which boat if any will prove to be the consensus design for boat 2? Great stuff.

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46 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I think it would be likely ETNZ have discounted scow-like hulls.

Here's my theory on why: Simulate two hull forms (actually, the numbers will likely have been much higher). If the simulation says Flipper performs best (based on the design assumptions) build flipper as boat 1. If the sailing testing proves the simulation, discard all other options and look to simulate incremental gains on Flipper. Build that version, as Boat 2.

Now, if a Challenger comes up with 'a game changer', that you haven't tested..... Problem is getting enough data on competitors to reach that point.

But what the fuck would I know?

Apart from the first line IMO, your hypothesis is logic.

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3 minutes ago, eurochild said:

Would be fascinating to know which (if any) syndicates are frantically assessing options that they didn't (seriously) consider, that another syndicate has gone with. You'd think they'll probably rerun the relevant sims as due diligence at least to try to see what the other teams were thinking but would there likely be some options on display that other teams didn't look into in detail? Which boat if any will prove to be the consensus design for boat 2? Great stuff.

Yep. I wonder if we'll see much design convergence with 2nd boats. As GD is on record as saying, the winning decisions have likely already been made.

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Apart from the first line IMO, your hypothesis is logic.

Ha, ha. Without the first line, I don't have a hypothesis, TC. Thanks for pointing that out. :-)

Edited by Sailbydate
spelling

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50 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

I think it would be likely ETNZ have discounted scow-like hulls.

Here's my theory on why: Simulate two hull forms (actually, the numbers will likely have been much higher). If the simulation says Flipper performs best (based on the design assumptions) build flipper as boat 1. If the sailing testing proves the simulation, discard all other options and look to simulate incremental gains on Flipper. Build that version, as Boat 2.

Now, if a Challenger comes up with 'a game changer', that you haven't tested..... Problem is getting enough data on competitors to reach that point.

But what the fuck would I know?

It's interesting that the two teams that have the longest amount of time of exposure/development/access to the rule have basically gone down one path and the the teams that have the least exposure/access to the rule have gone down another. I think that is by design from ETNZ's perspective. ETNZ will back themselves to beat LR and have effectively had the poms and the yanks spend a lot of time that I believe is a first generation boat, whilst ETNZ and LR have built second generation boats.

Don't be surprised if that when AM reappear in Florida for the northern hemisphere winter that the boat has had a saw taken to it somewhere...

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6 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Ha, ha. Without the first line, I don't have a hypothesis, TC. Thanks for pointing that out. :-)

^^ I still think your hypothesis can be correct without your first line, anyway, have a good day !

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1 minute ago, NZL3481 said:

It's interesting that the two teams that have the longest amount of time of exposure/development/access to the rule have basically gone down one path and the the teams that have the least exposure/access to the rule have gone down another. I think that is by design from ETNZ's perspective. ETNZ will back themselves to beat LR and have effectively had the poms and the yanks spend a lot of time that I believe is a first generation boat, whilst ETNZ and LR have built second generation boats.

Don't be surprised if that when AM reappear in Florida for the northern hemisphere winter that the boat has had a saw taken to it somewhere...

There's something in what you say, I think, NZL. The difference seems to be in the design assumptions made. One camp assumes some displacement mode racing and the other camp, 100% flying. The hull designs at least, are influenced by those assumptions. But in the end, it's the bits bolted on which are going to make the most difference, IMO.

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ I still think your hypothesis can be correct without your first line, anyway, have a good day !

Thanks, TC.

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39 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

It's interesting that the two teams that have the longest amount of time of exposure/development/access to the rule have basically gone down one path and the the teams that have the least exposure/access to the rule have gone down another.

Good point but you could interpret this in different ways - for example that ETNZ and LR iterated to the current rule in a certain direction and brought some assumptions to the design, whereas the other 2 teams saw the rule afresh and had a "cleaner" sheet of paper. Taking an example, AM and INEOS have the less conventional bows, so certainly they would have given consideration to (read: modelled the hell out of) more "boatlike" bows a la ETNZ and LR. They made a deliberate and presumably well-considered decision to try something different for this new class.

I think if you're going to talk about Defender advantage a more fruitful place to go might be to talk about wind limits (see discussion a few pages back). If the designs differ in part based on assumptions about the relative importance of displacement vs transition vs foiling, then ETNZ delaying communication of wind limits, whilst presumably having some understanding in their design team of where they are going, seems a huge factor. Not that it's that straightforward of course - even with knowledge of wind limits you may be guessing at how the matchplay will work (in terms of the different phases), and of course you don't know the actual wind that will blow in 2021.

Edit: wind limit discussion was on the NZ thread not this one ;-)

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12 minutes ago, eurochild said:

Good point but you could interpret this in different ways - for example that ETNZ and LR iterated to the current rule in a certain direction and brought some assumptions to the design, whereas the other 2 teams saw the rule afresh and had a "cleaner" sheet of paper. Taking an example, AM and INEOS have the less conventional bows, so certainly they would have given consideration to (read: modelled the hell out of) more "boatlike" bows a la ETNZ and LR. They made a deliberate and presumably well-considered decision to try something different for this new class.

I think if you're going to talk about Defender advantage a more fruitful place to go might be to talk about wind limits (see discussion a few pages back). If the designs differ in part based on assumptions about the relative importance of displacement vs transition vs foiling, then ETNZ delaying communication of wind limits, whilst presumably having some understanding in their design team of where they are going, seems a huge factor. Not that it's that straightforward of course - even with knowledge of wind limits you may be guessing at how the matchplay will work (in terms of the different phases), and of course you don't know the actual wind that will blow in 2021.

That's a card (wind limits) that is still to be played no doubt. A couple of teams would be in trouble if the minimum wind limit was 8 knots or less.

Keep in mind that Verdier has a bit of experience with scow bows. I'd think if he'd discounted the idea, you'd have to be very well researched to challenge it. His success rate of drawing very fast boats within a box rule is pretty hard to surpass.

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14 minutes ago, NZL3481 said:

That's a card (wind limits) that is still to be played no doubt. A couple of teams would be in trouble if the minimum wind limit was 8 knots or less.

Keep in mind that Verdier has a bit of experience with scow bows. I'd think if he'd discounted the idea, you'd have to be very well researched to challenge it. His success rate of drawing very fast boats within a box rule is pretty hard to surpass.

I'm hearing there may not be wind limits within reason but multiple courses to compensate for the wind? I'm not familiar with the harbor's differing conditions and possible course locations etc. 

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2 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

That's a card (wind limits) that is still to be played no doubt. A couple of teams would be in trouble if the minimum wind limit was 8 knots or less.

Keep in mind that Verdier has a bit of experience with scow bows. I'd think if he'd discounted the idea, you'd have to be very well researched to challenge it. His success rate of drawing very fast boats within a box rule is pretty hard to surpass.

It's almost a certainty that the lower wind limit will be less than 8 knots, anyone who hasn't designed for this simply didn't read the design brief properly, nobody is going to put a code zero on a foiler that only sails in 10+ knots.

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11 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So tell us about it....

Only thing I know is that Cariboni was wearing a LR shirt at the ceremony, so he is part of the team (and has provided most of the hydraulics for the foils to all teams).

They are playing something strange below deck.

About my comment...

This thread has been quiet for long because there were no news about the boat. Yesterday the most hot topic was the flag direction. We, Italians I mean, tend to speak even if we have nothing important to say. But that's not my habit. 

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5 hours ago, NZL3481 said:

Don't be surprised if that when AM reappear in Florida for the northern hemisphere winter that the boat has had a saw taken to it somewhere...

Theres a limit to how much they can modify it...

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4 hours ago, ITA602 said:

Only thing I know is that Cariboni was wearing a LR shirt at the ceremony, so he is part of the team (and has provided most of the hydraulics for the foils to all teams).

They are playing something strange below deck.

About my comment...

This thread has been quiet for long because there were no news about the boat. Yesterday the most hot topic was the flag direction. We, Italians I mean, tend to speak even if we have nothing important to say. But that's not my habit. 

I can't recall where the information of a below-deck mainsail control system came from - was it a team or close-to-team source? Are we barking up the wrong tree?

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4 hours ago, JonRowe said:

Theres a limit to how much they can modify it...

Though nobody knew the rule before ETNZ and LR, presumably teams could have started looking at different assumed rule directions and may have concluded a foiling mono was a possibility that needed study. The next obvious thing to look at would be takeoff; it may not be the case that the two scow teams are playing catch up on that aspect of the design. 

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13 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

Though nobody knew the rule before ETNZ and LR, presumably teams could have started looking at different assumed rule directions and may have concluded a foiling mono was a possibility that needed study. The next obvious thing to look at would be takeoff; it may not be the case that the two scow teams are playing catch up on that aspect of the design. 

I don't know why my post was relative to yours :lol: I meant that there isn't going to be that many modifications to American Magic when it comes back in Florida, the rule prevents significant modifications to the boat.

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3 hours ago, buckdouger said:

I can't recall where the information of a below-deck mainsail control system came from - was it a team or close-to-team source? Are we barking up the wrong tree?

Max? Maybe said " you're looking at it" in reference to the boom. Edit: or lack of

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5 hours ago, JonRowe said:

I don't know why my post was relative to yours :lol: I meant that there isn't going to be that many modifications to American Magic when it comes back in Florida, the rule prevents significant modifications to the boat.

Yeah the link was tenuous, sorry!

The missing connection was - they may not want to modify it much; they may have been studying the hull shape aspect of their design for quite a bit longer than we think and are very comfortable with where they branched off relative to competitors. As with all engineered things, few features are better or worse than an alternative in isolation. Underlying each teams' designs are their assumptions about lots of things. I imagine it would take a huge turnaround to back out of a design direction. If you were doing it based on spy data, you would think you'd need to be seeing major increased performance (and think about the uncertainties in measuring competitor performance, the fact that you won't have observed them in all conditions, etc), and then you would need a lot of time. 

The way we are hearing the build schedule discussed, that would seem to be a challenge.

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55 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

s - they may not want to modify it much; they may have been studying the hull shape aspect of their design for quite a bit longer than we think and are very comfortable with where they branched off relative to competitors. A

And you have to weigh those risks of new directions against the subterfuge that teams are capable of. Especially etnz. The Italian Guys mentioned "be surprised" in regards to the kiwi final foil design. And never forget the padded jerseys.

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I understand the Italian tradition of a nice static pose, but when are we going to see some footage of it actually moving?

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Sardine

Capture.thumb.PNG.b7890e4202d6a81217fed1b7160986eb.PNG

What's going on at the clew of that mainsail? Looks like a fold of excess cloth but that seems far too simplistic...

Got to say I like the style of the Sardine, the helm and afterguard do look quite exposed though...

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8 hours ago, NZK said:

What's going on at the clew of that mainsail? Looks like a fold of excess cloth but that seems far too simplistic...

Got to say I like the style of the Sardine, the helm and afterguard do look quite exposed though...

It's almost like something has got snagged around the bottom of the sail a little forward of the clew.  I have to say that aside the rest of the rig looks pretty darn slick, in fact the whole boat looks beautifully finished.

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I don’t see how this system is going to produce a very dynamic way of manipulating the mainsail. Tugging the Main with some rope on the bottom?? As Glen Ashby said  of the Americans sail trimming in the last cup. ‘ you don’t fly a 747 with a piece of string’

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Actually in a small way you do.....(747 400 series)

The last of the real steam driven, slide rule designed, drawn on a sheet of paper  wide bodies.

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46 minutes ago, uflux said:

I don’t see how this system is going to produce a very dynamic way of manipulating the mainsail. Tugging the Main with some rope on the bottom?? As Glen Ashby said  of the Americans sail trimming in the last cup. ‘ you don’t fly a 747 with a piece of string’

It's still got to better than letting the MCAS do it!

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On 10/27/2019 at 9:19 AM, uflux said:

I don’t see how this system is going to produce a very dynamic way of manipulating the mainsail. Tugging the Main with some rope on the bottom?? As Glen Ashby said  of the Americans sail trimming in the last cup. ‘ you don’t fly a 747 with a piece of string’

This is where you will never see or witness the internal manipulation that is going on inside the twin skins. We will be left speculating how a simple mainsheet can exert such varying degrees of control. Simple answer - the mainsheet isn't......

But - Batten technology, with electro, hyrdraulic or mechanical (string) manipulation, 3Di skins, D-section mast and independant mainsheets will be more than enough to give a good mainsail trimmer a headache........ Yes the zones of manipulation are only the bottom 1.0m and top 3.0m but that will do.

The shots from directly astern showing the foil shape they create and depth between skins is where they simultaneously create power at low drag. Keeping both sides fully energised without stalling either side will be the key ( and hence why we are seeing tell tales everywhere).

Remember the apparent is only moving 13 degrees( I believe I have read this number somewhere - but don't quote me) aft between upwind to downwind angles when on the foils..... So large rotation of the D mast or setting the mainsail uber deep and wide is not on the agenda. They will be seeking low drag shapes as much as max power shapes. So aero treatments to deck, foot and crew hideouts will matter. 

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On 10/26/2019 at 6:19 PM, uflux said:

I don’t see how this system is going to produce a very dynamic way of manipulating the mainsail. Tugging the Main with some rope on the bottom?? As Glen Ashby said  of the Americans sail trimming in the last cup. ‘ you don’t fly a 747 with a piece of string’

If you have enough purchase, it's amazing what you can do with a piece of string!

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2 hours ago, nroose said:

If you have enough purchase, it's amazing what you can do with a piece of string!

I think I would put my money on a hydraulic ram...

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1 hour ago, Raptorsailor said:

Foiling or not, it's eerily stable compared to the others. 

Designed as a low rider to take advantage of the 3kt minimum wind limit they have pre negotiated.

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On 10/28/2019 at 12:28 AM, nroose said:

If you have enough purchase, it's amazing what you can do with a piece of string!

Noose,

    Your comment just brought back an old memory of mine.

    When I was still in high school, there was a Navy wife schoolteacher who had the apartment at the deep end of the apartment pool. I spent way too much time cavorting in that pool and one weekend my Dad was catching some rays and when I joined him at the chaise lounges just past the shallow end of the pool, he mentioned seeing the hot teacher standing in her bedroom watching me through the gauzy window curtains as I went through my diving routine. I scoffed at him and asked how he knew it was the bedroom window and he said that she then put on her swim suit and he bet me that she would be out to the pool momentarily. I considered him a bit of a dirty old man at the time (still do for that matter) and he asked if I had ever met her. I said sure, she gets home from work and say hi as she strolls by the pool to her apartment and often comes for a swim and a chat. His interest led him to ask if I had ever met her husband the fighter jock and I said the she had told me he was about half way to a 10 month deployment to VietNam. Dad really got interested then just as she came out to the pool deck with a platter and walked over and set it down at the table between my Dad and I. I had a tall glass of cold milk and a plate of homebaked cookies! She said hi to me and said that she had baked my favorites and introduced herself to Dad and asked if he would like a glass of milk too! I thought Dad was going to have a heart attack but said yes probably more to watch her walk away to get the milk than really wanting to chase his beer with milk. While we both anxiously awaited her return, he got nosy and asked how she knew what my favorite cookies were and I told him that she had invited me in a couple of times for cookies. That brought out the most of his dirty old man mode and he told me in no uncertain that if I didn't tap that in a hurry he would disown me. I was appalled at the thought but he grinned and said, 'you will thank me someday...'

    She returned with another glass of milk for my Dad and she then took her leave and did her own pool routine and my Dad kept punching me in the ribs at giving me his best Jack Nicholson nod and a wink leer while drooling over my dear teacher friend. I didn't know what to think but it definitely opened up some new realities in my virgin mind.

    I didn't mean to go into such details on this but tomorrow is his birthday and here comes the punchline:

 

Son, that gal can do more tricks with 6 inches of meat than a monkey could do with a mile of string!...

   

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5 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

Foiling or not, it's eerily stable compared to the others. 

Glued to the water you mean? ;-)

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2 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

 

Son, that gal can do more tricks with 6 inches of meat than a monkey could do with a mile of string!...

Cool story, HB to him :)

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

Cool story, HB to him :)

Thanks, it has been 3 years since he passed and that story just popped in my head and I couldn't help myself. I should have listened to my Dad's advice more when I was young...

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17 hours ago, ollallero said:

image.png.d0b595e7a4f7d7516ae630a37193a7dc.png

Still amazes me that rudder and its mount can foil a 75' boat, granted with the help of another foil, but still.

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14 hours ago, Varan said:

Still amazes me that rudder and its mount can foil a 75' boat, granted with the help of another foil, but still.

At 50 knots you could hang your old fella off the stern and it would tack on a dime.

 

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50 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

At 50 knots you could hang your old fella off the stern and it would tack on a dime.

 

If you stuck your fella off the stern at 50 knots, you'd either become Jewish, or female.

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

If you stuck your fella off the stern at 50 knots, you'd either become Jewish, or female.

Depending on how cold the water is I suppose

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6 hours ago, Priscilla said:

At 50 knots you could hang your old fella off the stern and it would tack on a dime.

 

And would make the rudder look even smaller :ph34r:

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39 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Not sure that photo was worth posting.

No New pictures, no video...

Was not the picture, i posted my depression

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Their Twitter: "Congratulations to Max Sirena who has received the title of Honorary Citizen of Cagliari!"

 

I wish we see the boat sailing more often, they are getting pretty late behind the others.

 

EIEWQNWXUAEH0xo.jpg

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49 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

could someone just let me know when they post video of LR foiling? 

Posting a video full stop would be nice!

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7 hours ago, Mark Set said:

could someone just let me know when they post video of LR foiling? 

Or even a photo.

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My best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with a girl who saw LR foiling last night

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Makes sense. Jimmy trying to limit sun exposure cuz he's read that people say he's  looking old.

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20 hours ago, Mark Set said:

could someone just let me know when they post video of LR foiling? 

like, just quote me or like/unlike me on this post when they do. its the only reason i come to this thread.

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33 minutes ago, PJB said:

even a sketch of the boat doing something

even in chalk ....

Or yellow lines

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cant help feeling its missing something sailboatish

 

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10 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Still no videos of LR sailing yet? Are they hiding something? LOL

They’re still working on their outfits. 

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22 hours ago, Mark Set said:

like, just quote me or like/unlike me on this post when they do. its the only reason i come to this thread.

To clarify - there is no video!! I just liked your post because I would appreciate a similar "alert". 

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3 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

 

Hmmmm scuba tank there...

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