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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
strider470

Luna Rossa Challenge. AC 36

168 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

On the contrary. The prefect answer. "Utu." If the Challengers don't attack the Defender, the Defender won't fell the need to attack the Challengers - competition on the water not withstanding of course. 

Much as you love to pile it on ETNZ, Stinger, it takes two to tango.

Maybe he doesn't know what "utu" means .. it is a Maori word meaning payment or revenge.

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46 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Maybe he doesn't know what "utu" means .. it is a Maori word meaning payment or revenge.

Actually, it's bit more than that, Terry. It's 'balancing the natural order of relationships'. It can call for gifts or revenge to restore an imbalance.

Pretty appropriate I thought.

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17 hours ago, Indio said:

Hypocritical cunt!! OR-Xerox and ACEA taking poshots at Dalts and ETNZ in AC35 and since AC34 don't count??

Who started dishing out the pot shots?  I don't remember specifics but I seem to remember it was GD and his LR side kicks that started the shit talking during AC34.  I could be wrong though.  

Regardless, let's not pretend one side is better than the other in regards to the OR/ETNZ pissing contest that has been going on for the last 7 years.  Both have given as good as they have taken and both played a role in a pretty petty era, insult wise, of the AC. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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On 8/3/2017 at 4:28 PM, Sailbydate said:

On the contrary. The prefect answer. "Utu." If the Challengers don't attack the Defender, the Defender won't fell the need to attack the Challengers - competition on the water not withstanding of course. 

I'm asking about the comments made by the new Defender and their new Challenger, comments made since ~after~ they became Defender & Challenger, comments that take direct shots at several teams (and so indirectly at their commercial sponsors like Groupama too), let alone that shot taken at LV or the very personal shot taken by Max S at BA (as a human being BA 'is worth less than zero')

Wth is with all that already? Who does it help?

 

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  ^

Ouch ... that would seem definitive. Well worth translating

 

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My favourite line of the translated page is "Luna Rossa, having collaborated technically with kiwifruit in the last America's Cup, would benefit from it."

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51 minutes ago, DayTripper said:

Ole Bertelli just can't keep his mouth shut, eh?

Hahaha!! Loose lips and all that ..

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2 hours ago, DayTripper said:

Ole Bertelli just can't keep his mouth shut, eh?

Won't be the last time, watch.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Won't be the last time, watch.

Yeah, I agree. He does seem to run off at the mouth a bit. Wish he didn't.

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6 hours ago, DayTripper said:

Ole Bertelli just can't keep his mouth shut, eh?

Oh he can. You don't get where he has got without that ability. He just doesn't want to. And I guess we can assume the protocol won't include a Bertelli gagging clause.

 

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35 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Oh he can. You don't get where he has got without that ability. He just doesn't want to. And I guess we can assume the protocol won't include a Bertelli gagging clause.

 

We're a democracy...

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6 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Oh he can. You don't get where he has got without that ability. He just doesn't want to. And I guess we can assume the protocol won't include a Bertelli gagging clause.

 

Thank god.  Still one of the nastiest developments of the last cycle.  Sailing is for drunk assholes, so let them speak.

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7 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Oh he can. You don't get where he has got without that ability. He just doesn't want to. And I guess we can assume the protocol won't include a Bertelli gagging clause.

 

Deliberate ... just to ensure that he gets monohulls over the line?
Now that he's nudged it past the point of no return - and put himself in the box seat. "I'm in charge"

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It's a turning point for many, returning to monohulls.  

"They will be very powerful boats, but technical details, for example with foils (the drifts that raise them from the water) or the tilting cheeks, we will see them later." 

The G-Tran is above, can anyone give a better translation of the original line in Italian?

È una svolta attesa da molti, il ritorno ai monoscafi.  

«Saranno barche molto performanti, ma i dettagli tecnici, se ad esempio con i foil (le derive che li alzano dall’acqua) o le chiglie basculanti, li vedremo più avanti». 

 

'chiglie basculanti' = 'canting keels'?

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9 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

It's a turning point for many, returning to monohulls.  

"They will be very powerful boats, but technical details, for example with foils (the drifts that raise them from the water) or the tilting cheeks, we will see them later." 

The G-Tran is above, can anyone give a better translation of the original line in Italian?

È una svolta attesa da molti, il ritorno ai monoscafi.  

«Saranno barche molto performanti, ma i dettagli tecnici, se ad esempio con i foil (le derive che li alzano dall’acqua) o le chiglie basculanti, li vedremo più avanti». 

 

'chiglie basculanti' = 'canting keels'?

Many people were hoping for a return to monohulls.

"They will be very powerful boats, but technical details, for example if foils (the drifts that raise them from the water) or canting keels will be used, will be revealed at a later stage." 

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34 minutes ago, strider470 said:

Many people were hoping for a return to monohulls.

"They will be very powerful boats, but technical details, for example if foils (the drifts that raise them from the water) or canting keels will be used, will be revealed at a later stage." 

Thanks, I somehow missed the "if".

Here's a golden oldie link, an interview with Pete Melvin, that includes some detail about early discussions and decisions around the choice of boats for AC34. Canting keels are mentioned.

http://cupinfo.com/en/pete-melvin-americas-cup-multhull-decision-11005.php

  

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18 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Thanks, I somehow missed the "if".

Here's a golden oldie link, an interview with Pete Melvin, that includes some detail about early discussions and decisions around the choice of boats for AC34. Canting keels are mentioned.

http://cupinfo.com/en/pete-melvin-americas-cup-multhull-decision-11005.php

  

The comment you are referencing:

Quote

...

I think in the end a big driver against the monohull was the engine.  In the meeting, Bruce Nelson did a really good job of laying out different monohulls in that size range with deep-draft fixed keels, retracting keels, canting keels -- it was clear that you either had to have a retracting keel or a canting keel.  The canting keel was the preferred choice, because the performance was better.  But the downside was that you�d really need an engine to match race the thing

...

 

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Again, if people think returning to monos will return the focus to the sailor, I don't think you should get your hopes up.  More likely than not, we will see drag races with great disincentive to maneuvers, and still apparent wind sailing without spinnakers. 

Probably the best possible way to get the focus back to sailing, with sailors, would be foiling multis with flap-controlled foils and no stored power.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

chiglie basculanti' = 'canting keels'?

Yes

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2 hours ago, MischiefBDA said:

Deliberate ... just to ensure that he gets monohulls over the line?
Now that he's nudged it past the point of no return - and put himself in the box seat. "I'm in charge"

You reckon? I'd say he's lost influence in the process by showing he can't be trusted. He'll now be at the end of the information chain, any information that can be withheld will be withheld. What can he do about it?

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2 hours ago, Modurn-ate said:

Two rows of cyclors powering the cant, tack for tack, in long sessions of tacking duels.

Since he specifically mentioned 'canting keels' then that likely is what the design includes, or why else say it. It's not like P$B was even trying to tease anything, in that interview!

Which will necessarily lead to some form of engine, hopefully battery not diesel. For the keel swinging but then since you've opened that Pandora's box you might as well go ahead and power the foil trims too.

 

 

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In regards to canting keels, anyone remember the rumors swirling around Alinghi's SUI100's keel leading up to the AC32 Cup final?  I seem to remember it suggested that maybe they had some sort of cantable keel.  Not like there is today, but subtly canted and without the need of an engine.   I'll have to research that.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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26 minutes ago, WetHog said:

In regards to canting keels, anyone remember the rumors swirling around Alinghi's SUI100's keel leading up to the AC32 Cup final?  I seem to remember it suggested that maybe they had some sort of cantable keel.  Not like there is today, but subtly canted and without the need of an engine.   I'll have to research that.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yes, there was a big argument after a team, which was assumed to be Alinghi, issued an Interpretation request that questioned how much the keel could deflect. Ken McAlpine eventually had to do a Presser, to emphasize there that there was "No Deflection Allowed." 

Was definitely a big to-do at the time..

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Any chance getting Patrizio Bertelli and Max Sirena being sentenced into jail for the crap they did?

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40 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Any chance getting Patrizio Bertelli and Max Sirena being sentenced into jail for the crap they did?

On what charge...raising an AC budget to $180M?...

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7 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Any chance getting Patrizio Bertelli and Max Sirena being sentenced into jail for the crap they did?

I thought you were leaving? Wrong again were you?

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On 9/12/2017 at 4:53 PM, GauchoGreg said:

Again, if people think returning to monos will return the focus to the sailor, I don't think you should get your hopes up.  More likely than not, we will see drag races with great disincentive to maneuvers, and still apparent wind sailing without spinnakers. 

Probably the best possible way to get the focus back to sailing, with sailors, would be foiling multis with flap-controlled foils and no stored power.

I pray you are wrong. I fear you are right.

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On 9/14/2017 at 0:46 AM, Alinghi4ever said:

Any chance getting Patrizio Bertelli and Max Sirena being sentenced into jail for the crap they did?

And so, once again, ETNZ will be the plucky defender of sporting morality and the little fella up against the tyrannical machinations of the old world establishment.

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22 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

I thought you were leaving? Wrong again were you?

She was leaving TWICE nonetheless. 

So you must be responding to a figment of your imagination :D

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On 9/15/2017 at 6:35 PM, rgeek said:

So how much of a design advantage does LR have at this point?

ETNZ would have the design edge over LR at this stage. Bertelli's challenge would have been structured to comply with the DoG in terms of the boat overall dimensions, and they appear to have some initial agreement on a monohull. The details are what will be negotiated over vigorously in terms of the AC36 Class Rule, with ETNZ having the ultimate say - or LR can turn up in 10 months' time for a 3-race DoG match, something unlikely to happen.

The Protocol would have been largely completed as an ETNZ document, with only a few revisions to accommodate details entailed by the decision to go with monohulls. It'll be released next week.

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So far, it seems to me that Bertelli has really hijacked the AC and GD has prostituted ETNZ. To date, the price that GD is paying for the support of Bertelli last time around seems at odds with what he has said in the past. Having a challenger dictate the type of boat as payment for having previously supported the defender seems wrong but what i think is unacceptable, if true, is the way in which Prada is taking over what was the LV. Back in the day, sometime after Alinghi won in 2007, there was an outcry because they appeared to be dumping LV on purely financial grounds. Many felt that LV had earned a right to be treated fairly. Then look at the tie ups there have been between ETNZ and LV, like the LV Cup held back in 2010(?) which certainly helped ETNZ big time.

At this early stage, how can anybody determine that Prada sponsoring the challenger series is the best thing for that series. Surely there is a duty to ensure that the series gets the best sponsor for all, and until we know the format, how could anybody know what other parties might suggest. IMO, it is the worst commercial abuse of the AC I have ever seen. It seems wrong that one team should have such a financial hold over an event. It's not as if it were the same as, say, Emirates sponsoring the AC because the financial benefit of that would not be going into the pocket of anybody at ETNZ. In the case of Prada, it has a direct financial consequence to Bertelli and he has done it to financially benefit the company he controls (with his wife).

It looks like Bertelli's biggest motivation in helping ETNZ was to hijack the cup in favour of Prada and to make the challenger stronger than they otherwise would be. In a fair world, both defender and challenger should be equal partners, with the defender holding an upper hand if needed. In this case it seems clear that Bertelli has bought a position of power and is dictating key decisions in an asymmetric display of power. 

It just goes to show how corrupt the AC is. With Alinghi, everybody said it was about Bertarelli making money for himself. After Alinghi everybody said Oracle and Larry would be better and they were treated as saviours. That proved wrong. Now GD and TNZ are being hailed as the new saviours and we see them allowing a challenger to gain significant financial benefit from the start.

I hope the rumour is wrong, but if it is true, all we have is the same old, same old dressed up in new cloths.

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18 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

So far, it seems to me that Bertelli has really hijacked the AC and GD has prostituted ETNZ. To date, the price that GD is paying for the support of Bertelli last time around seems at odds with what he has said in the past. Having a challenger dictate the type of boat as payment for having previously supported the defender seems wrong but what i think is unacceptable,

----------- snip ------------

This is nonsense .. Dalton is well known for favouring monos as were 80% of the people who responded to Scuttlebutt's survey.

The AC50 was never going to fly for a regatta in the Hauraki Gulf because it could not cope with a strong NE wind and large waves; this means that a significant number of days would be lost during the regatta. ETNZ know this because they developed their AC50 in Auckland and had to do a lot of their sailing South of Rangitoto and Rakino Islands so that they could avoid the larger waves in the Hauraki Gulf.

A larger cat may have been possible but given that a different boat was needed and both Dalton and Bertelli favoured monos and monos could cope with the wide range of conditions that the Hauraki Gulf produces the outcome is entirely predictable.

I for one regret the passing of the AC50 and I had hoped they might go back to something like the AC62 but ETNZ have the power to select what they want and if they wish to respect Luna Rosa by allowing them to contribute to the MUTUAL AGREEMENT part of the challenge it is up to them.

 

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On 15/09/2017 at 2:35 AM, rgeek said:

So how much of a design advantage does LR have at this point?

As much as P$B has in his agreement with GD. For the case GD denied his agreement, what if P$B made it public ? Pretty obvious he has a signed document, the dog match is the pure fantasy of only one poster here.

On the design aspect, the rumors I get from Switzerland are that "they" have been testing mono foilers for a bit more than a year now. GD was at Lac de Genève this week, I even have photos of him and a few swiss guys. I would say the biggest winners know are the swiss manufacturers.

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4 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

A larger cat may have been possible but given that a different boat was needed and both Dalton and Bertelli favoured monos and monos could cope with the wide range of conditions that the Hauraki Gulf produces the outcome is entirely predictable.

Some cats rounded the world with any range of conditions, Hauraki golf was a piece of cake, this is NOT the right reasin.

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3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Some cats rounded the world with any range of conditions, Hauraki golf was a piece of cake, this is NOT the right reasin.

As I said .. a larger cat may have been possible ..

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4 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

As I said .. a larger cat may have been possible ..

15 m cats could have done it too.

As far as chops, I have been sailing both cats and monos, cats cut through it like monos can't.

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4 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

15 m cats could have done it too.

As far as chops, I have been sailing both cats and monos, cats cut through it like monos can't.

That may be so but NOT the AC50.

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6 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

That may be so but NOT the AC50.

Not sure, AC15 equipped with foils and flaps would have used grinders, have been faster, better controlled, more seaworthy. That is the future of fast sailing, not foiling mono.

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29 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Not sure, AC15 equipped with foils and flaps would have used grinders, have been faster, better controlled, more seaworthy. That is the future of fast sailing, not foiling mono.

The AC50's nearly fell to pieces in 20 knots of wind at the pond in Bermuda .. The idea that they could handle a 30 knot NE in the Hauraki Gulf is laughable.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

The AC50's nearly fell to pieces in 20 knots of wind at the pond in Bermuda .. The idea that they could handle a 30 knot NE in the Hauraki Gulf is laughable.

Agreed. Furthermore foiling monos clearly ARE the future of yachts in the AC regardless of wha others would wish.

We had to suffer the cats for two cycles and now it's time for the cat lovers to suck it up.

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

So far, it seems to me that Bertelli has really hijacked the AC and GD has prostituted ETNZ. To date, the price that GD is paying for the support of Bertelli last time around seems at odds with what he has said in the past. Having a challenger dictate the type of boat as payment for having previously supported the defender seems wrong but what i think is unacceptable, if true, is the way in which Prada is taking over what was the LV. Back in the day, sometime after Alinghi won in 2007, there was an outcry because they appeared to be dumping LV on purely financial grounds. Many felt that LV had earned a right to be treated fairly. Then look at the tie ups there have been between ETNZ and LV, like the LV Cup held back in 2010(?) which certainly helped ETNZ big time.

4

Stop talking shit all the time you moron!!. The Deed dictates the process for challenging, including the boat dimensions - the Challenger does not decide. Louis Vuitton was the CSS sponsor for years, til Russ & Larry decided to side-shift them. The naming sponsor for the AC36 Challenger Selection Series is not the CoR's decision - it's the Defender's. And if it turns out to be Prada, so what? It'll be a decision made for the right reasons.

You're the traitorous whinging pom who was dumping on Team_GB BAR in AC35, and now you're still whinging over a winning team you stated time and again were not going to be the AC35 Challenger. Here's a reminder for you - choke on it in your whinging.

5959e58b74bda_DaltsCup.jpg.7b70bd65e7c5071b2de97e2e176c1da2.jpg

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5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

(Snip)

In this case it seems clear that Bertelli has bought a position of power and is dictating key decisions in an asymmetric display of power. 

Now GD and TNZ are being hailed as the new saviours and we see them allowing a challenger to gain significant financial benefit from the start.

 

Nice bit of creative writing there, TGBR.

You'd be better served by some facts, which will become much clearer very soon.

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5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

So far, it seems to me that Bertelli has really hijacked the AC and GD has prostituted ETNZ. To date, the price that GD is paying for the support of Bertelli last time around seems at odds with what he has said in the past. Having a challenger dictate the type of boat as payment for having previously supported the defender seems wrong but what i think is unacceptable, if true, is the way in which Prada is taking over what was the LV. Back in the day, sometime after Alinghi won in 2007, there was an outcry because they appeared to be dumping LV on purely financial grounds. Many felt that LV had earned a right to be treated fairly. Then look at the tie ups there have been between ETNZ and LV, like the LV Cup held back in 2010(?) which certainly helped ETNZ big time.

At this early stage, how can anybody determine that Prada sponsoring the challenger series is the best thing for that series. Surely there is a duty to ensure that the series gets the best sponsor for all, and until we know the format, how could anybody know what other parties might suggest. IMO, it is the worst commercial abuse of the AC I have ever seen. It seems wrong that one team should have such a financial hold over an event. It's not as if it were the same as, say, Emirates sponsoring the AC because the financial benefit of that would not be going into the pocket of anybody at ETNZ. In the case of Prada, it has a direct financial consequence to Bertelli and he has done it to financially benefit the company he controls (with his wife).

It looks like Bertelli's biggest motivation in helping ETNZ was to hijack the cup in favour of Prada and to make the challenger stronger than they otherwise would be. In a fair world, both defender and challenger should be equal partners, with the defender holding an upper hand if needed. In this case it seems clear that Bertelli has bought a position of power and is dictating key decisions in an asymmetric display of power. 

It just goes to show how corrupt the AC is. With Alinghi, everybody said it was about Bertarelli making money for himself. After Alinghi everybody said Oracle and Larry would be better and they were treated as saviours. That proved wrong. Now GD and TNZ are being hailed as the new saviours and we see them allowing a challenger to gain significant financial benefit from the start.

I hope the rumour is wrong, but if it is true, all we have is the same old, same old dressed up in new cloths.

Get real you querulous whinging Pom!

This is the America's Cup for fuck's sake.

Your much vaunted national challenger practically bled his country dry in his drive for funding ... and then tripped on his dick.  So now you have an abiding need to proselytise to us.

Ever heard of Sir Thomas Lipton?

Next you'll be telling us that Lipton's strenuous efforts to lift the Cup had nothing to to with selling tea.

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7 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I hope the rumour is wrong

Call me old-fashioned but I'm holding off on the outrage until we have some actual facts.

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6 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

The AC50's nearly fell to pieces in 20 knots of wind at the pond in Bermuda .. The idea that they could handle a 30 knot NE in the Hauraki Gulf is laughable.

Stronger structure and different foils, it would have probably worked. Anyway, this not the reason they come back to mono.

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13 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Stronger structure and different foils, it would have probably worked. Anyway, this not the reason they come back to mono.

I didn't say it was the reason they came back to mono .. I am saying that the AC50 is unsuitable for a regatta in the Hauraki Gulf so they needed to come up with an alternative .. the alternative could have been a bigger and stronger cat but they chose a mono that's all.

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3 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

 

This is the America's Cup for fuck's sake.

 

Do you mean that, EB and LE were thugs, but regarding GD, "That's America's Cup FFS" ?

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EB and LE bent and changed at will the rules well over the limit of sportsmanship. That's why they were thugs. There is no evidence that GD or P$B will be the same. In fact I'm sure of the contrary. Wait until the protocol will be released, then you will have the right to express your agreement or not, based on what you like in the sailing world. But even then, any moral judgement will be unfair, because it should be based on facts. Like the facts EB and LE did. IMHO

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6 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

Get real you querulous whinging Pom!

This is the America's Cup for fuck's sake.

Your much vaunted national challenger practically bled his country dry in his drive for funding ... and then tripped on his dick.  So now you have an abiding need to proselytise to us.

Ever heard of Sir Thomas Lipton?

Next you'll be telling us that Lipton's strenuous efforts to lift the Cup had nothing to to with selling tea.

 

:D

 

 

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More thread drift:

Came across a great story involving Sir Thomas Lipton and the Ponsonby Cruising Club, Auckland in the weekend.

Apparently a group of PCC members posed for a photo outside Devonport's, Esplanade Hotel around 1919 and a copy of the pic was sent to Sir Thomas, with a request from club members to donate a cup suitable for local competition. Sir Thomas sent out a rather elaborate silver cup, then valued at over $1,000 pounds, along with a letter telling members that they had a fine looking clubhouse (the Esplanade Hotel in the pic) and that he looked forward to visiting it when he came out to New Zealand.

Or so the legend goes.

So, not just about selling tea, maybe.

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11 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Call me old-fashioned but I'm holding off on the outrage until we have some actual facts.

I have been away but quite agree, no influence from here, we will just have to watch what unfolds.

Someone in NZ though has a concept of what they will create for the proposed rule.

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On 9/14/2017 at 1:24 AM, WetHog said:

In regards to canting keels, anyone remember the rumors swirling around Alinghi's SUI100's keel leading up to the AC32 Cup final?  I seem to remember it suggested that maybe they had some sort of cantable keel.  Not like there is today, but subtly canted and without the need of an engine.   I'll have to research that.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Twisted/flexed

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10 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Neat story, do they still have that Cup?

I don't know, Stinger. I came across the story in the Esplanade Hotel compendium! ;)

Just dived into the PCC web site and found this pic. So I guess the answer is yes.

Here's a pic of "the Club", aka the Hotel.

PCC_96th_LiptonCup_2017_Trophy.jpg

Espalanade-Hotel.jpg

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^ Man, sailing is such an elite sport, shame on them ;)

 

 

 

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I think you find  there a number of yacht clubs that have a "Lipton Cup", I have seen at least three.  Maybe he donated cups extensively, maybe it helped sell tea.

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"The "Newer Ewer" of 1887 is rarer than first thought, as markings on the bottom reveal that it was executed for Wedgwood by famous Spanish architect and artist Antonio Gaudi, in what art historians refer to as his early peyote period.."

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11 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

"The "Newer Ewer" of 1887 is rarer than first thought, as markings on the bottom reveal that it was executed for Wedgwood by famous Spanish architect and artist Antonio Gaudi, in what art historians refer to as his early peyote period.."

Just re-read the article, and stumbled upon this paragraph as well. Had to laugh out loud, hilarious

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Ac50s designed for Bermuda would be unsuited to sailing some where else entirely? That is the revelation of the day right there

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Any new facts or rumors from this guy? In Italian

 

Nope, just a fairly complete summary

 

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