strider470

Luna Rossa Challenge. AC 36

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Lucky that there was no swell !

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6 minutes ago, uflux said:

Lucky that there was no swell !

Was thinking the same.....things could have gone really pear shaped very fast.

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32 minutes ago, uflux said:

Here it is 

just a black bar with no link for me

i can see the before though

any chance you will normalize your posts ?

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I'm thinking there could be a 12 month delay......which wouldn't be a bad thing since the timeline has always been tight.

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4 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

just a black bar with no link for me

i can see the before though

any chance you will normalize your posts ?

Here you go

 

7A24CC23-5B12-4D56-BDF8-DF9EE65B50E8.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, uflux said:

Here you go

much appreciated .. thanks

 

sort of looks like a  manta ray now

or

a very frightened flying fish

 

did jimmy have to tell him about that one as well ?

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Who did V1 on the foil arms? My money is on them..

 

or the €50 fitting on the bob stay 

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9 minutes ago, JALhazmat said:

Who did V1 on the foil arms?

Persico.......That version was pretty crap......Had to get ETNZ's composite gurus in to sort it out.

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looks to me like the fitting ripped out first and that started enough of a tear to let rip the rest off easily

so who beefed up the fitting area

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Things are spiraling now.....all major gatherings willed be cancelled. The peak for the virus is not expected till around August.

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There's a second shot of the boat in the cradle with a white tarp draped over the bow - looks comically similar to the INEOS picture with the photoshopped Corona mask....

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9 minutes ago, NZK said:

There's a second shot of the boat in the cradle with a white tarp draped over the bow - looks comically similar to the INEOS picture with the photoshopped Corona mask....

Tease.

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I think it came from within the team - I've only seen it on someones phone from a whatsapp chat... I'm sure it'll be out soon enough

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

I was thinking exactly the same thing. They've pushed it way to fine with the scantlings.

I think that's a great example of lateral thinking.

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2 hours ago, uflux said:

Here you go

 

7A24CC23-5B12-4D56-BDF8-DF9EE65B50E8.jpeg

I like the idea that the bowmans got Jimmy in his comms asking 'how bad is it??'

Er....

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17.5 The bowsprit shall not be bonded to the hull and must be removable for easy replacement.

Not what I would call rule compliant.

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7 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

This boat has been a disaster.

You could look at it that they are finding the limit on many items. It is essentially a test boat after all. 

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3 minutes ago, BBA said:

You could look at it that they are finding the limit on many items. It is essentially a test boat after all. 

Evidence is building that this boats structure has been under specced. Deck areas around the mast had warped. They had a no step sign on the foredeck. Repaired cracks were also visible. Chainplate of the forestay failed dropping the rig, and now the nose has ripped off. They've been finding the limits and exceeding them a tad too often imo. With a boat like this the crew would start to lose confidence in cranking on the loads. This boat might get scrapped.

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1 minute ago, Horn Rock said:

Evidence is building that this boats structure has been under specced.

On how  many AC75s do you think the bob stay breaking, presumably with the code 0 set in strong conditions, would be a non–event?

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1 minute ago, RobG said:

On how  many AC75s do you think the bob stay breaking, presumably with the code 0 set in strong conditions, would be a non–event?

Zero, best Build it so  it doesn’t fail then. 

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2 minutes ago, RobG said:

presumably with the code 0 set in strong conditions,

Why would you be running a code zero in strong conditions? I think they're lucky they didn't drop the rig again.

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5 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Evidence is building that this boats structure has been under specced. Deck areas around the mast had warped. They had a no step sign on the foredeck. Repaired cracks were also visible. Chainplate of the forestay failed dropping the rig, and now the nose has ripped off. They've been finding the limits and exceeding them a tad too often imo. With a boat like this the crew would start to lose confidence in cranking on the loads. This boat might get scrapped.

Its easier to add laminte and strengthen a boat than it is to take layers away. Also I think the natur of these boats is that they will all be scrapped post AC. You dont see many AC72's sailing around these days do you.

I agree they have probably pushed it a bit to far in too many areas causing them excessive downtime. But, if they can learn from these failures and boat two has all these items beefed up to overcome the the failures they have seen then maybe it could just be that edge needed to win. Maybe.

 

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6 minutes ago, BBA said:

But, if they can learn from these failures and boat two has all these items beefed up to overcome the the failures they have seen then maybe it could just be that edge needed to win. Maybe.

All these boats will be at or close to the specced minimum weight. Weakening the structure to may be put some ballast lower down might only yield a minimal gain in a foiling boat. I guess this is what they're trading?

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5 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

All these boats will be at or close to the specced minimum weight. Weakening the structure to may be put some ballast lower down might only yield a minimal gain in a foiling boat. I guess this is what they're trading?

Could be though I center of mass is also stipulated in the rule.

image.thumb.png.c35de78d60616a651a2d0b01ebae59ad.png

So they have 50 cm to play with in fore and aft position. Could be important for balance/trim.

17 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

All these boats will be at or close to the specced minimum weight

I had a look for a minimum weight but seems what with the foiling we now have maximum weights.

image.thumb.png.00aec7aa818f7ad43f6d7f024d5ec984.png

I couldnt see a minimum weight anywhere. so i guess they are building to maximum weight for max righting moment. 

I guess having less weight at the extremties of the boat also effects the inertial properties. Wether or not that has any serious effect idk. 

 

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4 hours ago, chesirecat said:

More than that. Persico is in the quarantine zone.

Sicilia and Cagliari also !!! In fact all the Italy is in red zone . Normally evrybody at home .

 

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8 minutes ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

To see what would happen if they got caught out.....

They certainly answered that question. I wonder if it was Jimmy's idea? Hey guys lets fly the code zero in 20kts - should be fun.

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Damn

Imagine they're going to have to make a new bow section and scarf it in.  Wonder how far along b2 is

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2 hours ago, justsomeone said:

17.5 The bowsprit shall not be bonded to the hull and must be removable for easy replacement.

Not what I would call rule compliant.

I get what you are implying, but it does not necessarily translate.

Look at the picture showing the hole. Look at the original Bowsprit. Look at how ETNZ join their Bowsprit to the stem. Luna Rossa seem to have lost significantly more than just the attachment connection area. The Stem structure that is the hull, is missing.

Could well be that the Bowsprit can be separated from the piece of hull that has torn off. Joint may well have passed connection stress test, much more sucessfully than the Hull shell did......

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Well, LR certainly is losing sailing time given that boat's issues. Assuming that matters anymore.

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I had the occasion to break or see bow sprits on different kind of boats, including a 3 masted sailboat but have never seen a hull breaking because of it. It's true that we are speaking of AC75 though.

Is the LR structural designer the same that designed the foil arms ?

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Maybe they're concerned because other teams had more sailing time, so they push really hard the boat on their sailing sessions. Too much hard maybe? I hope ETNZ will delay the Cup. Every team will lose a lot of time due to Covid 19. It's almost sure that Cagliari event will be cancelled. UK event could be cancelled too.

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Delaying the cup because someone broke their boat is a joke. Is tough but they must be accountable 

delaying the cup Because you can’t run a tv show in different locations? Nope, more time sailing at home, actually developing not sat on boats shipping around the world.

binning the ACWS to keep the cup on time? Yup gets my vote. 

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6 hours ago, justsomeone said:

17.5 The bowsprit shall not be bonded to the hull and must be removable for easy replacement.

Not what I would call rule compliant.

The removable attachment of the bowsprit obviously won’t be designed to be removed from forces that come from the sail. If the forces from the sail exceed the structural strength of the bow, it will fail.

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6 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

If the forces from the sail exceed the structural strength of the bow, it will fail.

The Italians might need a few rolls of that 3M bonding tape you were talking about?

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I had the occasion to break or see bow sprits on different kind of boats, including a 3 masted sailboat but have never seen a hull breaking because of it. It's true that we are speaking of AC75 though.

Is the LR structural designer the same that designed the foil arms ?

 

Afraid so. Unfortunately, since the team was announced I was told by personal acquaintances that their composite guys are not the sharpest tools in the shed

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6 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Evidence is building that this boats structure has been under specced. Deck areas around the mast had warped. They had a no step sign on the foredeck. Repaired cracks were also visible. Chainplate of the forestay failed dropping the rig, and now the nose has ripped off. They've been finding the limits and exceeding them a tad too often imo. With a boat like this the crew would start to lose confidence in cranking on the loads. This boat might get scrapped.

Well this is just GREAT! When they lost the rig it was like a knife to the gut, now it's being twisted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "might get scrapped" comment reminds me of what happens occasionally on "Forged In Fire" (History Channel) when a smith can't set a forge weld & has to shit can the whole thing & start over!

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The funny thing is, they've only just got back in the water and have broken it again.

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Build new bow section at your leisure 

bodge the bow it’s only to keep water out

no more code zero till new bow

go yachting 

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15 minutes ago, hairyharford said:

Build new bow section at your leisure 

bodge the bow it’s only to keep water out

no more code zero till new bow

go yachting 

Some of the forestay loads probably go that far forward?

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50 minutes ago, Xlot said:

 

Afraid so. Unfortunately, since the team was announced I was told by personal acquaintances that their composite guys are not the sharpest tools in the shed

Surely grounds for moving on to better people? Or are they without alternative personnel?

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15 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

Surely grounds for moving on to better people? Or are they without alternative personnel?

Of course there would be. But it’s the usual story with Luna Rossa: politics and ass-kissing are an integral part

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8 hours ago, NZK said:

There's a second shot of the boat in the cradle with a white tarp draped over the bow - looks comically similar to the INEOS picture with the photoshopped Corona mask....

Via Sailing Illustrated

unnamed.jpg

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So, the upside is that they know they have a REALLY strong bowsprit and attachment. 

 

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33 minutes ago, RMac said:

So, the upside is that they know they have a REALLY strong bowsprit and attachment. 

 

Which, in 20/20 hindsight, wasn’t such a good idea. Shear pins serve a purpose ...

 

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No great loss considering the ACWS is dead.

Plenty would have been learnt from B1 like all syndicates and B2 virus permitting will line up in time for Santa in Auckland.

Going to be a pretty fast and furious run to the challenger series and TNZ gets just one dance with the opposition.

 

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6 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

No great loss considering the ACWS is dead.

Plenty would have been learnt from B1 like all syndicates and B2 virus permitting will line up in time for Santa in Auckland.

Going to be a pretty fast and furious run to the challenger series and TNZ gets just one dance with the opposition.

 

C’mon, their bow broke off. “No great loss”?  They’ll be shitting themselves.

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2 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Delaying the cup because someone broke their boat is a joke. Is tough but they must be accountable 

 

Of course, I mean delaying the Cup due to the pandemic situation in the world.

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to say that the caligari races were postponed ( cancelled ) purely because of the covid 19 virus ) and the COR's broken boat had nothing to do with the decision

is to me a little doubtful

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Sailing Sardinia.

" The damage, however blatant, is not very serious and everything suggests that the boat is ready at the weekend. Yesterday morning, before going out to sea, the dolphins came up to greet the guys on the team:

http://www.sailingsardinia.it/cagliari-annullata-cagliari-posticipata-la-parola-allarbitration-panel/?fbclid=IwAR37w9iEl86oQdWKOp6PjMBg8RKbd6xAYQSlBTLL4N9qh_u9DAPsfmQ3KZc

 

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58 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

C’mon, their bow broke off. “No great loss”?  They’ll be shitting themselves.

That is what you have boat builders for.

1576733512116.thumb.jpg.48425a9db5f5dc32ee2599b32029bf6f.jpg

800.jpeg.10b29be7729861a16b1dc05418f802ce.jpeg

 

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2 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

That is what you have boat builders for.

Sure.  In the last two sails the mast has fallen down and the bow has snapped off.

Nothing to be worried about.

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32 minutes ago, phill_nz said:

to say that the caligari races were postponed ( cancelled ) purely because of the covid 19 virus ) and the COR's broken boat had nothing to do with the decision

is to me a little doubtful

What? All other sailing events are canceled too, SGP, 53 Super Series, GC32 just to name a few. And these boats are not broken. 

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32 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

What? All other sailing events are canceled too, SGP, 53 Super Series, GC32 just to name a few. And these boats are not broken. 

couple of resons

ac has 4 teams that tend to camp for awhile in any given place and be relatively isolated from everyone else the rest mostly have many that fly in and out again from all over ( the ac50's major problem was likely being in the us with eu teams )

and

i didnt say it was the only reason .. just an additional one .. " COR's broken boat had nothing to do with the decision is to me a little doubtful "

 

i posted awhile ago they should build a quicky base on motuihe ( a small island next to one of the courses in auckland ) and quarantine the teams there for a year or so .. they can then race and practice all they like with little to no chance of infection spread

if they dont like motuihe there is always islington bay ( rangitoto )  .. it has a huge concrete pad already there left from the ww2 harbour boom defence base

 

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39 minutes ago, chesirecat said:

Sailing Sardinia.

" The damage, however blatant, is not very serious and everything suggests that the boat is ready at the weekend. Yesterday morning, before going out to sea, the dolphins came up to greet the guys on the team:

http://www.sailingsardinia.it/cagliari-annullata-cagliari-posticipata-la-parola-allarbitration-panel/?fbclid=IwAR37w9iEl86oQdWKOp6PjMBg8RKbd6xAYQSlBTLL4N9qh_u9DAPsfmQ3KZc

 

Yeah they said similar about the broken master. Then we're off the water for 3 weeks :rolleyes:

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4 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

The funny thing is, they've only just got back in the water and have broken it again.

Might be another case of 'this fucken boat'.

I guess we're seeing the real reason for Prada wanting a 20kt limit.

Can sailors trust the boat, the builders, the designers?

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14 hours ago, chesirecat said:

Probably out of commission the same amount of time as ETNZ's boat is in transit. Not helpful for both teams. AM must be thinking  - thereby by the grace of God.

Ah hmmm.....

"There but for the grace of God, go I."

That virus looks nasty

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5 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Afraid so. Unfortunately, since the team was announced I was told by personal acquaintances that their composite guys are not the sharpest tools in the shed

Alessandro Franceschetti ? In general the designers complain about the composite guys and they themselves complain about the designers, they have to work together.

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11 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

All these boats will be at or close to the specced minimum weight. Weakening the structure to may be put some ballast lower down might only yield a minimal gain in a foiling boat. I guess this is what they're trading?

This is not a weight issue, the failure of the bobstay is an engineering issue.

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Just add some teeth around the hole in the bow!

Jebuzus imagine tooling around in murky water like that & THAT suddenly appears :ph34r:

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22 minutes ago, hoom said:

Jebuzus imagine tooling around in murky water like that & THAT suddenly appears :ph34r:

At 30 metres, would almost almost guarantee a case of the bendz, I'd have thought.

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4 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Via Sailing Illustrated

unnamed.jpg

Oh the irony, that photo is pure gold!!  Especially being the Italian boat

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12 hours ago, Boink said:

The Stem structure that is the hull, is missing

Which seams to imply that the connection of the bowsprit is stronger than the hull.
Not a fail mode that you would what to design on purpose.

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7 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Via Sailing Illustrated

unnamed.jpg

Even boats are now wearing masks. But the virus already took a mean bite

lr.jpg.42dd0653e6ee46c08ebea448bd4ea0f3.jpg

Photo ripped from sail-world. Some discussion about bow molds and lockdowns too. Not a good time to break shit. Delaying racing helps.

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Just listened to a replay of TE's FB show. He reckons LR's b1 has got problems - "it's not right" and is going to be scrapped.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Just listened to a replay of TE's FB show. He reckons LR's b1 has got problems

Holy, shit, the man’s a genius!

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Dang.  Looks like the pins held and the hull didn't 

What is the core doing there? If the boat was intact that would be right above the bobstay socket.  Given the pics, it seems to me like the bobstay or bobstay socket failed and then the sprit jacked up and then the bow tore off.  

That's the second critical failure in the same area of the boat;  if you recall the dismasting was due to "chainplate" failure, which on a rig like this eitehr meant where the cylinder attached or where the sheave box for the forestay or tack ram was bonded to the hull, would have been right there just aft of the bobstay socket. 

I thought this sort of bad carbon work would have been more of a Bella Mente/AM kind of setup. 

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13 minutes ago, RMac said:

I thought this sort of bad carbon work would have been more of a Bella Mente/AM kind of setup. 

"It's carbon, right?  That stuff's stronger than about anything.  Of course it'll be ok..."

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34 minutes ago, RMac said:

Dang.  Looks like the pins held and the hull didn't 

What is the core doing there? If the boat was intact that would be right above the bobstay socket.  Given the pics, it seems to me like the bobstay or bobstay socket failed and then the sprit jacked up and then the bow tore off.  

That's the second critical failure in the same area of the boat;  if you recall the dismasting was due to "chainplate" failure, which on a rig like this eitehr meant where the cylinder attached or where the sheave box for the forestay or tack ram was bonded to the hull, would have been right there just aft of the bobstay socket. 

I thought this sort of bad carbon work would have been more of a Bella Mente/AM kind of setup. 

Perhaps the dismasting accelerated fatigue in this location of the boat that went undetected until it was a bit more, shall we say, obvious.

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Why would the guy on the boat be looking at the bow after they got tied to a chase boat? See the line on the left side. Wouldn't he check before, or wouldn't the chase boat take a look?

Any chance could have happened under tow? Just an idea.

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24 minutes ago, Nauti Buoy said:

Why would the guy on the boat be looking at the bow after they got tied to a chase boat? See the line on the left side. Wouldn't he check before, or wouldn't the chase boat take a look?

Any chance could have happened under tow? Just an idea.

Looks to me that they don't tow the AC75's by the bow just to much load.

yysw265667.jpg.a2007fae5c255110df464f4917175979.jpg

yysw279144.jpg.2f844b65f747c9a079ca9bd09cf99b71.jpg

yysw266418.jpg.9045944e74585f9c17bb3878cd5dc16e.jpg

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If the bobstay failed under load as has been reported, something's got to give. The bow I would think was designed primarily to handle compression loads, not vertical loads at the end of a lever.

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" The damage, however blatant, is not very serious and everything suggests that the boat is ready at the weekend."

Which weekend will that be.

Do hope it's not RIP.

m1529_crop169014_1024x576_proportional_1571955282FE72.jpg.bf6dfcab785fe82d3099e0f372cea192.jpg

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

" The damage, however blatant, is not very serious and everything suggests that the boat is ready at the weekend."

Which weekend will that be.

The bow work might not be "that serious", but the need to rethink, design, engineer and fit something more suitable to the loadings and the workings of the boat might not be a 'we'll get that done this week' process.  Which weekend indeed?  It'll be interesting to see whether and when this boat returns.

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16 minutes ago, Skipstone said:

The bow work might not be "that serious", but the need to rethink, design, engineer and fit something more suitable to the loadings and the workings of the boat might not be a 'we'll get that done this week' process.  Which weekend indeed?  It'll be interesting to see whether and when this boat returns.

We don't generally see the code zero in action..may be fix the gaping hole, stick the sprit on for looks,and get on with the myriad of other tests waiting on the shelf.

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8 minutes ago, barfy said:

We don't generally see the code zero in action..may be fix the gaping hole, stick the sprit on for looks,and get on with the myriad of other tests waiting on the shelf.

Indeed.  But Murphy has a habit of producing unseasonal 7 knot days when you call time on engineering required components. Do you really just call time on the code zero while your opponents design, engineer, build, trial, develop and hone their code zero capabilities and technique?  You don't want to over-invest in it, but if being able to use one is the difference between winning and losing a race I think most teams would want to at least be somewhere along the curve rather than bypassing it entirely.

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We saw Te Aihe training in Auckland without the bow sprit attached so maybe they just fix the current bow section, redesign a new bow section and fly it straight to Auckland.

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Question:

Given the hiatus and uncertainty at the moment I thought I might pontificate about some recent issues, and what even more recent events might imply.

Case in point #1, CoR Luna Rossa and Defender ETNZ initially failing to agree on wind limits, even though there were 'only' 4 knots differential between their respective wishes IIRC.

Given the design/engineering/build quality issues that Luna Rossa have experienced (deck, forestay, bowsprit etc) can we pontificate that this 'conflict came down to;

  • wanting to assert challenger influence over the defender (point scoring, gaining decision momentum, limiting engineering modeling requirements, or whatever it may be or you may wish to label it);
  • wanting to assert not only influence over the defender (as above), but also shading the other challengers by apparently not conferring before initiating the argument;
  • just being disagreeable with the defender and arguing a point of difference because there was a desire not to be seen as too chummy with their old chums.

Or might it be that Luna Rossa were by that time already conscious that their boat (B1) might be;

  • more fragile than some others (or should that be too fragile in general with regard to being fit for purpose?) - whether due to overload and increased pressures causing unforeseen weakness etc or simply cutting too many corners to arrive at a 'winning' advantage' of the sort winners of the Americas Cup have usually had over others in the fleet.

Or something else entirely?  And what might that be?

If the wind limits issue were for Luna Rossa down even in part to concerns at the strength of their B1, what might their desire to argue wind limits all the way to arbitration imply for their B2? (even if that wasn't how it was eventually decided).  Might it insinuate that they intended to re-use significant portions of the engineering calcs from B1 (or is that drawing too long a sword?)  And what calcs will now need to go back to the drawing board.  And what effect will that have on their B2 construction?  And how far along is that construction at this point in time?  How much is locked in or even constructed?  And does any additional change now required add even more cost to the control software, or are required changes to this as simple as tweaking the settings/configuration of what's already been built, given the focus given along the way to the cost of this component of the AC75? Politics or Reality?

What other factors might be in play?  Ideal opportunity for conspiracy thinkers and realists alike to throw out the anchor on an issue and debate something none of us have any real idea about (apologies to those few that might) but seem usually to find engaging just the same.

 

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the italians have made some great choices with B1 to allow them easy decisions for B2

while the rest have to struggle with the decisions of .. can we go lighter or do we need it a bit stronger here

the italians have set themselves up for an easy choice  .., we need to go a lot stronger .. everywhere