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Luna Rossa Challenge. AC 36

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20 minutes ago, justsomeone said:

Good design tries to foresee the unforeseen and tries to have a failure mode that limits damage/danger.

Ages ago, when I. was a young engineer, I was taught the purpose of shear pins

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Two failures at stress points doesn't bode well. For a team that was looking like the potential challenger, their unraveling has been quite extraordinary. Are they going to patch it up again and go for the trifecta? TE puts them at the bottom of the heap now - below even the Poms, whose boat has barely seen the water.

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54 minutes ago, Boink said:

All true - But with out the anchoring of the Bobstay (however that failure has occured) then the Hull Structure was subjected to a Load Path that was never envisioned or designed for.

My frustration is the comment about the Hull being weaker than the connection. No Appreciation or understanding of what is going on. I know contemporary society likes wrapping up all issues in a pithy soundbite - but it is not how real knowledge is gained or passed on. And Society is generally the poorer for expediency in manner ways.

A failure is a failure. No excuse for not for “envisioning“ it. You could never use that excuse if an airliner crashed or bridge fell down or super tanker sank. Engineering has responsibilities

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29 minutes ago, uflux said:

A failure is a failure. No excuse for not for “envisioning“ it. You could never use that excuse if an airliner crashed or bridge fell down or super tanker sank. Engineering has responsibilities

True, but way over the top, IMHO. :blink:

 

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Look back through the ACC history and you will see plenty of examples of failures on test boats. That is their purpose: test new ideas and validate for the race boat.

looks dramatic, but just a bobstay failure.

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24 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

Look back through the ACC history and you will see plenty of examples of failures on test boats. That is their purpose: test new ideas and validate for the race boat.

looks dramatic, but just a bobstay failure.

Agreed.  But should "just a bobstay failure" have had such drastic consequences? The bobstay is not a new "feature" even if a new class of vessel may mean loadings are not fully quantified. In essence probably more reason to over-engineer than under.

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1 hour ago, Fiji Bitter said:

True, but way over the top, IMHO. :blink:

 

Do I really need to mention Artemis in San Francisco?? That was also an engineering failure. So I wouldn't say my concern is ”over the top”. <_<

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Just now, uflux said:

Do I really need to mention Artemis in San Francisco?? That was also an engineering failure. So I wouldn't say my concern is ”over the top”. <_<

Did someone get killed when the front fell off  LR?

And Artemis was not just an engineering failure, it was a "Juan k".

 

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5 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Two failures at stress points doesn't bode well. For a team that was looking like the potential challenger, their unraveling has been quite extraordinary. Are they going to patch it up again and go for the trifecta? TE puts them at the bottom of the heap now - below even the Poms, whose boat has barely seen the water.

But still ahead of S&S 

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12 minutes ago, kenergy said:

But still ahead of S&S 

I can imagine Jimmy saying to the team - Hey guys we're still looking better than S&S.....

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5 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

I can imagine Jimmy saying to the team - Hey guys we're still looking better than S&S.....

that's a story I wouldn't want to be part of, imagine that, they dont even have a boat, how can they come back from that, that's their motivation. 

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5 minutes ago, kenergy said:

they dont even have a boat,

There might be a few in LR thinking - well we don't have a boat either - not one we have any confidence in.....Think about NZL82. The problems didn't go away. Race boats have a habit of biting you in the arse when they're not built right. A third major failure for LR's boat would be crushing psychologically, not to mention that it could potentially leave them without a full sized test bed till the launch of B2. Whilst their little boat was cute, it was mainly a proof of concept vehicle rather than a fully fledged development tool. 

There'll be some soul searching going on in the LR camp.

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

Race boats have a habit of biting you in the arse when they're not built right.

These days it is rarely a build error at this level. Tends to be an error in calculations of required loads or an oversight of a potential scenario.

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2 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Did someone get killed when the front fell off  LR?

And Artemis was not just an engineering failure, it was a "Juan k".

 

So let’s just leave it down to luck then :blink:....nah ..”she’ll be right “ doesn’t cut it. 

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

There might be a few in LR thinking - well we don't have a boat either - not one we have any confidence in.....Think about NZL82. The problems didn't go away. Race boats have a habit of biting you in the arse when they're not built right. A third major failure for LR's boat would be crushing psychologically, not to mention that it could potentially leave them without a full sized test bed till the launch of B2. Whilst their little boat was cute, it was mainly a proof of concept vehicle rather than a fully fledged development tool. 

There'll be some soul searching going on in the LR camp.

Apparently they also broke the test boat.. So even that is not really usable (mentioned by Tom Ehman a couple of months ago when hawk was unveiled)

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7 hours ago, Chimp too said:

These days it is rarely a build error at this level. Tends to be an error in calculations of required loads or an oversight of a potential scenario.

Seems strange the way the bowsprit was attached to the bow without any reinforcements inside the hull to handle the stress from the sails.

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39 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Seems strange the way the bowsprit was attached to the bow without any reinforcements inside the hull to handle the stress from the sails.

The large footprint of the bowsprit and the whole laminate schedule would have been designed around the expected stresses. A broken bobstay under load was probably beyond the scope from the engineers, as design to cope with that was probably too heavy. 
sure y tv ge design incorporated the necessary reinforcement, based on the design parameters. Not necessarily obvious though from such photos.

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12 minutes ago, Chimp too said:

The large footprint of the bowsprit and the whole laminate schedule would have been designed around the expected stresses. A broken bobstay under load was probably beyond the scope from the engineers, as design to cope with that was probably too heavy. 
sure y tv ge design incorporated the necessary reinforcement, based on the design parameters. Not necessarily obvious though from such photos.

Given a functioning bobstay, isn't the bulk of load on the sprit a compression load back in towards the hull - monocoque should be fine for this, until the bobstay breaks and then no more compression cause it to tear like an aluminium can - as it did...

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A bowsprit generally has no strength without the bobstay and is not supposed to. On cats we have the possibility to have 4 bobstays and the bowsprit is only attached by a small pin, sometimes not even attached but maintained by pressure against a bulge. I broke 2 bowsprits but never damaged the main beam or the hull.

Same for the mast, if a forestay breaks you don't want to have the mast foot fixed to the hull and break everything when falling.

An AC75 is different though, I don't know how the other teams attached their bowsprit and if they would damage the hull if breaking.

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

A bowsprit generally has no strength without the bobstay and is not supposed to. On cats we have the possibility to have 4 bobstays and the bowsprit is only attached by a small pin, sometimes not even attached but maintained by pressure against a bulge. I broke 2 bowsprits but never damaged the main beam.

An AC75 is different though, I don't know how the other teams attached their bowsprit and if they would damage the hull if breaking.

LR's bobstay only supports loads in a vertical plane. Even a slight twist would cause weakness, which I believe is the more likely case. If you look at Ineos they have a double bowsprit to deal with this - plus I believe their boat is exceptionally stiff and needs it. 

2 bowsprits going some T Cat!

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On 3/13/2020 at 8:47 PM, BBA said:

Could be though I center of mass is also stipulated in the rule.

image.thumb.png.c35de78d60616a651a2d0b01ebae59ad.png

I couldnt see a minimum weight anywhere. so i guess they are building to maximum weight for max righting moment. 

Section 3 provides for tolerances:

3.11

(ii) where decimal places for a unit are not given, the measurement shall be accurate to within 1% of the figure indicated. For example, if a Rule states that a component must weigh 1000 kg, that component must weigh between 990 kg and 1010 kg inclusive

So stating that the "yacht assembly" must be 6305 kg means within 1%, so ±63 kg.

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On 3/15/2020 at 1:04 PM, uflux said:

A failure is a failure. No excuse for not for “envisioning“ it. You could never use that excuse if an airliner crashed or bridge fell down or super tanker sank. Engineering has responsibilities

Yes, Engineering has resoponsibilities, but Do not compare an ancillary item like a Bowsprit to the integrity of the whole craft..... let alone to the parameters and level of redundancy that airliners or civil structures or whatever are designed to.

And show me a team of designers that would design a bowsprit around the capacity to survive the instantaneous removal and support that a Bobstay gives - and in return I will be able to show you a team of designers that does not suceed in winning the AC.

They are designing a Day racer, for protected waters use in the presence of support craft. Not a Vendee Globe Race Boat that requires Southern Ocean Survivability in the proximity of Point Nemo. Its Horses for courses. 

No one here has mentioned that both these incidents seem to be related to failure of important support cables, and now that photos have emerged of the nose piece - also possibly because of chainplate structure failures........

Coincidence?

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4 hours ago, Boink said:

Yes, Engineering has resoponsibilities, but Do not compare an ancillary item like a Bowsprit to the integrity of the whole craft..... let alone to the parameters and level of redundancy that airliners or civil structures or whatever are designed to.

And show me a team of designers that would design a bowsprit around the capacity to survive the instantaneous removal and support that a Bobstay gives - and in return I will be able to show you a team of designers that does not suceed in winning the AC.

They are designing a Day racer, for protected waters use in the presence of support craft. Not a Vendee Globe Race Boat that requires Southern Ocean Survivability in the proximity of Point Nemo. Its Horses for courses. 

No one here has mentioned that both these incidents seem to be related to failure of important support cables, and now that photos have emerged of the nose piece - also possibly because of chainplate structure failures........

Coincidence?

That fact the the bowsprit ripped off the entire bow rather the failing at the bowsprit shows their level of basic design flaws.

Yes the support cables instigated the failures but the actual failures show more about the bad engineering of the boat at its most fundamental level. Yes we can’t expect Southern  ocean robustness. But we should expect that they can sail with a code zero without structurally endangering the yacht. 
 

you can put lipstick on the pig as much as you want... it’s a dangerous boat.

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1 hour ago, uflux said:

That fact the the bowsprit ripped off the entire bow rather the failing at the bowsprit shows their level of basic design flaws.

Yes the support cables instigated the failures but the actual failures show more about the bad engineering of the boat at its most fundamental level. Yes we can’t expect Southern  ocean robustness. But we should expect that they can sail with a code zero without structurally endangering the yacht. 
 

you can put lipstick on the pig as much as you want... it’s a dangerous boat.

There's a legitimate alternative version of this reality where the boat stoved nose first into the water as a result of the breakage in some chop and thanks to the very heavy foils resulted in the boat taking on considerable amounts of water from the front, causing it to sink lower and take on more water before ultimately sinking (again the foils are fucking heavy)... 

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11.8 The hull surface shall enclose a volume of at least 70 m 3 , which must include:
(a) an enclosed watertight volume of at least 40 m 3 , situated entirely forward of plane that is 9.500 m
forward of TRP, which may be subdivided; and
(b) a watertight bulkhead situated between 17.000 m and 19.000 m forward of TRP.

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

So a bunch of non Italians get the boot from LR? 

More significant than their nationality is surely their titles: The COR’s event organizing authority’s CEO, Marketing Director and Communications Director. 
 

It’s at least noticeable! 

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http://www.saily.it/it/news/rivoluzione-cor36-fuori-laurent-esquier

This meanwhile the situation of the four teams.

Emirates Team New Zealand has its AC75 currently en route by ship to Cagliari, while in Auckland (where the virus has arrived and the infections increase at a rate that worries) the team when it can train with the famous last "forklift" scale replica dell'AC75.

Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli is at the base of a quarantined Cagliari, where she has trained so far with mixed fortunes (the dismantling, then the uprooting of the bowsprit and a large piece of bow) and with the growing parallel organizational commitment of the stage then skipped. Now with the armored city, going out to sea would be impossible even with a healthy boat. On the construction site, however, we proceed to redo the bow at Luna Rossa ...).

Ineos Team UK has trained in Cagliari since January, has stopped to escape the virus. The British have shown a great logistical capacity, the daughter of the highest budget in the history of the America's Cup. Arriving in Cagliari well in advance, built a base including sailmaking and shipyard in "Chinese" times, very often gone out, they even brought the Finn with whom Giles Scott gold medal in Rio, and sparring partner left training in Poetto. In one week, they unloaded everything.

Finally, New York Yacht Club American Magic , which apparently managed to avoid starting the boat by ship from the winter training base in Pensacola, Florida to Europe. Here they continued to train with the first "mule", and here perhaps now they will resume doing it with boat 1, should Portsmouth also jump."

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On 3/17/2020 at 2:11 AM, uflux said:

you can put lipstick on the pig as much as you want... it’s a dangerous boat.

Is your personal opinion; which means absolutely nothing.......

The Boat was NOT endangered, the Boat did NOT sink, the crew were NOT injured. 

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3 hours ago, Boink said:

Is your personal opinion; which means absolutely nothing.......

The Boat was NOT endangered, the Boat did NOT sink, the crew were NOT injured. 

Well thought out argument :rolleyes:

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22 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

More significant than their nationality is surely their titles: The COR’s event organizing authority’s CEO, Marketing Director and Communications Director. 
 

It’s at least noticeable! 

Didn’t realize the CoR organization was as bloated as Oracle’s in SF’s heyday. Might as well dismantle it for the time being, the replacements are an old crony and a non-entity, both already in LR’s payroll

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12 hours ago, Boink said:

Is your personal opinion; which means absolutely nothing.......

The Boat was NOT endangered, the Boat did NOT sink, the crew were NOT injured. 

Sorry, are you talking about the time when the mast fell down, or when the bow fell off?

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Would not be too surprised to see Prada pack their bags and leave the AC.

Patrizio has thrown his toys out of the cot before and now most probably rues the choice he made not to front  in 2017 as compared to the TNZ promise to simplify the boat and reduce costs where in reality he has seen the complete opposite transpire.

 

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Incredible to see how Bertelli is short tempered, I was sure he would be mad after the last boat problems, but firing generals in the middle of the battle...

Yes, he could get out of the AC as he did before.

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Clearing the way for S+S to become CoR if no need for a boat till 2021. ;) :(

 

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3 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Clearing the way for S+S to become CoR if no need for a boat till 2021. ;) :(

 

Now just stop that! You're feedin the trolls.

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  ^ That’s in the North/mountain part of Sardinia

But locusts are next

 

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Incredible to see how Bertelli is short tempered, I was sure he would be mad after the last boat problems, but firing generals in the middle of the battle...

Yes, he could get out of the AC as he did before.

What is it? He can create extreme wealth via fashion but can't lead AC teams?

edit: he's probably too far away from it and trusts his generals too much...

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Best he hangs in there if he dreams of taking the cup back to Italy. This is his best shot for many years and by the looks so far (apart from their B1 being a breaker) they are in the hunt.

But I suspect right now, he has more on his mind than a boat race - just like the rest of us.

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12 hours ago, Liquid said:

What is it? He can create extreme wealth via fashion but can't lead AC teams?

edit: he's probably too far away from it and trusts his generals too much...

One requires good looks the other requires results.

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Luna Rossa has just revealed what exactly caused the bow of their AC75 to fail in such a spectacular fashion.


EFCBF0F9-1AE6-4ADA-AC53-9F1A841E1ED6.thumb.jpeg.d929d467b61dfaae3077fcdf844ff135.jpeg

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America's Cup: Luna Rossa to resume training with clever counter to coronavirus restrictions

07:42, Apr 01 2020
 
Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli Team
America's Cup Challenger of Record Luna Rossa looks to be getting to grips with the radical new AC75. Italian America's Cup syndicate Luna Rossa are set to resume training with a boat modified to comply with the social distancing rules for the coronavirus pandemic.

Italy has been the hardest hit country in Europe and Luna Rossa lost the chance to host the opening America's Cup world series regatta in Cagliari in April which was cancelled amid health fears.

Luna Rossa have also had their share of problems with their boat losing its mast in one training mishap and then having its bowsprit and part of its bow torn off in another unwanted incident.

Luna Rossa have made modifications to their AC75 to allow them to resume training during the coronavirus pandemic.
LUNA ROSSA
Luna Rossa have made modifications to their AC75 to allow them to resume training during the coronavirus pandemic.

Now Luna Rossa are out to make up for lost time. Sirena revealed they were allowed to resume training but would need to comply with government health restrictions. That would see them sail the radical 75-foot foiling monohull with just four sailors on board instead of the usual 11. For the purpose of training, they had brought in engines to replicate the power produced by their absent grinders.

"This will allow us to continue our tests," Sirena told La Gazzetta.

"We know that everything is relative at times like this … the important thing is not to give up and continue to fight, united.

The syndicate were also doing their bit to help the struggling health workers battling the pandemic. They had turned their design and build expertise to producing protective visors for health workers in Sardinia. Sirena said they were living in "a surreal situation" but he was bouyed by the community spirit he was witnessing in Cagliari where they were based. He couldn't predict what would unfold with the America's Cup.

The following world series regatta in Portsmouth set for June has also been cancelled, meaning Auckland would be the centre of the competition if travel restrictions were eventually lifted. Auckland is set to host a world series regatta in December that will now be the first opportunity for these boats and teams to be in a racing situation. The Prada Cup challenger series is set to start in January 2021 with the winner of that taking on defender Emirates Team New Zealand in the America's Cup match in March.

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2 hours ago, Skipstone said:

America's Cup: Luna Rossa to resume training with clever counter to coronavirus restrictions

07:42, Apr 01 2020
 
Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli Team
America's Cup Challenger of Record Luna Rossa looks to be getting to grips with the radical new AC75. Italian America's Cup syndicate Luna Rossa are set to resume training with a boat modified to comply with the social distancing rules for the coronavirus pandemic.

Italy has been the hardest hit country in Europe and Luna Rossa lost the chance to host the opening America's Cup world series regatta in Cagliari in April which was cancelled amid health fears.

Luna Rossa have also had their share of problems with their boat losing its mast in one training mishap and then having its bowsprit and part of its bow torn off in another unwanted incident.

Luna Rossa have made modifications to their AC75 to allow them to resume training during the coronavirus pandemic.
LUNA ROSSA
Luna Rossa have made modifications to their AC75 to allow them to resume training during the coronavirus pandemic.

Now Luna Rossa are out to make up for lost time. Sirena revealed they were allowed to resume training but would need to comply with government health restrictions. That would see them sail the radical 75-foot foiling monohull with just four sailors on board instead of the usual 11. For the purpose of training, they had brought in engines to replicate the power produced by their absent grinders.

"This will allow us to continue our tests," Sirena told La Gazzetta.

"We know that everything is relative at times like this … the important thing is not to give up and continue to fight, united.

The syndicate were also doing their bit to help the struggling health workers battling the pandemic. They had turned their design and build expertise to producing protective visors for health workers in Sardinia. Sirena said they were living in "a surreal situation" but he was bouyed by the community spirit he was witnessing in Cagliari where they were based. He couldn't predict what would unfold with the America's Cup.

The following world series regatta in Portsmouth set for June has also been cancelled, meaning Auckland would be the centre of the competition if travel restrictions were eventually lifted. Auckland is set to host a world series regatta in December that will now be the first opportunity for these boats and teams to be in a racing situation. The Prada Cup challenger series is set to start in January 2021 with the winner of that taking on defender Emirates Team New Zealand in the America's Cup match in March.

And what happens in an emergency? You know, like when something totally unexpected happens like... perhaps the mast breaking, or the front falling off?

Restrictions in NZ and other countries don't just apply to distancing, there is also very little tolerance to activities that could result in you needing help and others being forced to come into contact with you to help... hence no sailing, no boating etc

LR is playing with technicalities when it comes to actual life and death... in a country with a massive problem... not a great look at all... mark my words, you won't see ETNZ out during level 4...

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27 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

And what happens in an emergency? You know, like when something totally unexpected happens like... perhaps the mast breaking, or the front falling off?

Restrictions in NZ and other countries don't just apply to distancing, there is also very little tolerance to activities that could result in you needing help and others being forced to come into contact with you to help... hence no sailing, no boating etc

LR is playing with technicalities when it comes to actual life and death... in a country with a massive problem... not a great look at all... mark my words, you won't see ETNZ out during level 4...

you may look at what restrictions are in place in Italy before you start pushing "NZ and other countries" restriction onto them

yes NZ has said no activities like recreational boating, i see Australia is split depending on what state you are in

 

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45 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

you may look at what restrictions are in place in Italy before you start pushing "NZ and other countries" restriction onto them

yes NZ has said no activities like recreational boating, i see Australia is split depending on what state you are in

 

It's becoming pretty clear that any recreational water activity is being either frowned upon or outright unlawful in Australia...

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50 minutes ago, Lickindip said:

you may look at what restrictions are in place in Italy before you start pushing "NZ and other countries" restriction onto them

yes NZ has said no activities like recreational boating, i see Australia is split depending on what state you are in

 

Australia is not in the same level of lockdown as the likes of Italy and NZ. Neither is the UK - both UK and AU permit you to continue working outside of home, and travelling to and from work if you cannot work from home. Australia is currently even more lax. I know those to market's restrictions pretty intimately as I am tracking them for work, Italy less so, but from I can tell you are supposed to be at home like NZ and cannot leave home for 'work'. Sure some of this is a judgement call, and my point is that if LR are thinking just having space between the sailors solves the problem, they have about as good judgement as Australia requiring haircuts to be no longer than 30 mins.

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36 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Are we sure it’s legit? I mean the date ...

 

Who knows?  ;) But it was published on gazetta.it at 10:23am on 30 March if that's any assistance...

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from gtran

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=it&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.oasport.it/2020/04/vela-americas-cup-primi-allenamenti-per-luna-rossa-con-la-nuova-barca-tra-vincoli-e-mascherine/&usg=ALkJrhiMiOJ6UW87bUJlj3e39lDw9ipbGA

starting from the next few days she can finally return to the water with some constraints . Some sailors will in fact be replaced by engines, bringing the number of people on board from 11 to 4 at the same time to start training and performing fundamental tests at sea.

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From FareVela, long but not informative interview with Max on Sky TV. Only item he said original plans had been to be in AKL by mid-Sept, currently they expect to delay that by one month / month and a half

https://farevela.net/2020/04/03/americas-cup-lintervista-di-max-sirena-a-sky-sport-andremo-in-nuova-zelanda-solo-a-fine-ottobre/

 

PS: no, nothing more, no mention of B2 or of current sea trials. The design office is telecommuting, some mods have been carried out

 

 

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