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Luna Rossa Challenge. AC 36

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16 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Oh, those longitudinal cutouts ... nobody could tell what they did anyway

Magnets big fucking magnets:D

On 10/23/2020 at 2:04 PM, CaptKeen said:

I'm guessing they have developed some sort of grid electromagnetic control system below the deck, with the foot of the mainsail able to be morphed into any shape they please. Not an expert by any means but would be one way you could control the foot of the mainsail very accurately. It would also cost a significant amount to develop and given the comments previously from LR around the high costs of the control systems/software, it would seem to fit..

 

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1 hour ago, Xlot said:

Oh, those longitudinal cutouts ... nobody could tell what they did anyway

They were access hatches 

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There were pics from the first launch showing someone digging around under there, it was speculated up until recently that there were multiple connections. The ovals are just covers. 

there aren’t and I hold my hands up I got it wrong, I got corrected by a chap that works for AM. the new version on B2 now has large solid covers that go over it all, they were being carried to the boat down the dock the other day.

 

 

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So... I haven't really followed the mainsail / boomless arrangement of LR B1 and I'm not sure what I'm looking at with B2.

How would a concealed beam be an advantage for shaping of the mainsail? How could it influence the shape when there were no connections along the deck-sweeper edge?

So have they gone boom-less for B2? Would anyone mind linking me to some historic post where the internal boom arrangement is explained?

LRMS.thumb.JPG.c6f56ccfec6c88247652fdbec73b1bf6.JPG

 

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2 hours ago, Priscilla said:

 

Looks pretty quick when going well. Hilarious music choice .... I'm imagining an obituary read out over that

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1 hour ago, MastaVonBlasta said:

So... I haven't really followed the mainsail / boomless arrangement of LR B1 and I'm not sure what I'm looking at with B2.

How would a concealed beam be an advantage for shaping of the mainsail? How could it influence the shape when there were no connections along the deck-sweeper edge?

So have they gone boom-less for B2? Would anyone mind linking me to some historic post where the internal boom arrangement is explained?

LRMS.thumb.JPG.c6f56ccfec6c88247652fdbec73b1bf6.JPG

 

I would suggest they have. The main advantage is in what isn't there - a boom, to get in the way of shaping the foot. The boom thickens the sail at the foot, and in the worst case it cannot be articulated so keeps the foot straight. Even if it can be articulated in one place, it may have limited shape options before the boom is seen in the sail shape.

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Towing out this morning. Stiff breeze and a bit gusty so they headed out to the Paddock.

AM were already out there, but taking an age to set up. By the time LR were set up, AM had stopped to change jib.

Another gauging session today?

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Just now, weta27 said:

Towing out this morning. Stiff breeze and a bit gusty so they headed out to the Paddock.

AM were already out there, but taking an age to set up. By the time LR were set up, AM had stopped to change jib.

Another gauging session today?

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I understand the need, but wow. That media pod being forced on everyone is hideous. It just kills the lines on the Italian and American boat. (It’ll probably blend in on the British boat)

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59 minutes ago, Xlot said:

@weta27 How did you get to the Paddock? Nice visual, no?

 

Thanks Xlot. It's just the long lens making the Paddock look closer.

I was on top of a hill - North Head, about 15km away from the boats.

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6 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

Lots of side by side runs going on way out there in the haze!

Who's winning??!

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5 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Looks more like Amway and the Handbags.

Right you are! damn! :-)

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2 hours ago, buckdouger said:

I would suggest they have. The main advantage is in what isn't there - a boom, to get in the way of shaping the foot. The boom thickens the sail at the foot, and in the worst case it cannot be articulated so keeps the foot straight. Even if it can be articulated in one place, it may have limited shape options before the boom is seen in the sail shape.

All true..very clean lines..but what about deep camber down low whilst still having a tight leech? Seems to me that you would need more outhaul purchase than I've seen on their traveller. An articulated boom might help induce an essential shape.

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Amway looks a little quicker there and on the YouTube example posted overnight :ph34r: 2 for 2 so far?

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15 minutes ago, barfy said:

All true..very clean lines..but what about deep camber down low whilst still having a tight leech? Seems to me that you would need more outhaul purchase than I've seen on their traveller. An articulated boom might help induce an essential shape.

I agree you are waiting for air pressure to fill the sail shape. Seems a slower way to manipulate things especially at low speed such as pre starts. That gets even worse if you let off outhaul 

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4 hours ago, uflux said:

I agree you are waiting for air pressure to fill the sail shape. Seems a slower way to manipulate things especially at low speed such as pre starts. That gets even worse if you let off outhaul 

I think the boom will have many advantages over no boom. Better adjustment of the outhauls for better shape through the middle section. Better overall control for speed up and down situations, especially in pre starts. If these boats are close at all the start will be everything. So maneuverability is paramount.

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11 hours ago, weta27 said:

Same one I think.

sprit.jpg

Thanks @weta27, I thought the lower might have had a footprint at the bow that occupied the full square rebate, as opposed to what we saw at launch, where the footprint of the sprit only covered part of the rebate and was round. But I agree they look the same as each other in your above pics. 

image.png.1be56f71951af9c25a5928c23c6a364a.png

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22 minutes ago, nav said:

That all looks a bit "coordinated" wouldn't you say?

Nah. I reckon the threshold would probably either require a course being set and sailed, and/or proof of communication between teams.

E4612FBB-3C40-47FA-A790-C344F88BAA48.jpeg

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39 minutes ago, nav said:

That all looks a bit "coordinated" wouldn't you say?

Can’t wait to see a threesome.

That will give Lord GD something to really moan about.

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33 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Nah. I reckon the threshold would probably either require a course being set and sailed, and/or proof of communication between teams.

E4612FBB-3C40-47FA-A790-C344F88BAA48.jpeg

Proof? 
Haha! if people waited for proof before firing shots in the AC it would be a very quiet place. 
 

Gwumpy Gwant, getting ready to moan about Butterball is the next move. He will have arranged it, it will be his fault ;-) 

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19 hours ago, Monkey said:

I understand the need, but wow. That media pod being forced on everyone is hideous. It just kills the lines on the Italian and American boat. (It’ll probably blend in on the British boat)

If you want pretty go to Springbreak

 

40 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Can’t wait to see a threesome.

That will give Lord GD something to really moan about.

Why would GD complain about it? It's not his job to enforce it - the Regatta Director does.

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6 minutes ago, Indio said:

 

Why would GD complain about it? It's not his job to enforce it - the Regatta Director does.

As per article, no he doesn't

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10 hours ago, Priscilla said:

Can’t wait to see a threesome.

That will give Lord GD something to really moan about.

I'm sure there will be. So if your're say AM and you line up and realise that Luna Rossa is faster what do you do next? Go back to the designers and say make the boat go faster? They've already given you their fastest boat. Foil design at this point of time would be the deciding factor I would have thought?

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On 11/3/2020 at 2:51 AM, weta27 said:

Some grainy zooms to show the decksweeper area, mini-boom (?) or some kind of solid structure between the skins just below the bottom red stripe, and lack of separation between skins at the leech.

sweeper1.jpg

sweeper2.jpg

sweeper3.jpg

Maybe a similar arrangement to a Nacra 16 square?

21ECF4B6-0B8D-46FD-B300-ED87454F787C.jpeg

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1 hour ago, orca99 said:

Maybe a similar arrangement to a Nacra 16 square?

21ECF4B6-0B8D-46FD-B300-ED87454F787C.jpeg

This is exactly what I think it is, with a small hydraulic ram on each side of a single clew plate attached to the clew point of each sail, which is as a single unit attached to a traveller below deck.

Sure would be nice to not have a boom above deck for when they suddenly ease it and a crew member standing half in the leeward cockpit gets split in half at the waist by the boom and cockpit combing. 

Not Another Teen Movie Football GIFs | Tenor

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pW6YIUs42ZQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/W3hx70TLhfE" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/a6Q5D8jrS-0" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SU-6S3on-KU" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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10 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Talk about a media production.  The last 1:30 of a 5:55 video is the credits.

Italians.

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

Bit of a dig at GB and NZ that time when you have no boat to sail is time wasted

I imagine the response is that its great sailing a boat that the rig doesn't fall off and the front tear open but hey funny old Max bringing the humor.

if they don't reach the final he is swiftly painting himself into a corer as  cunt number 1

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I have a spreadsheet of ballpark speeds. I think it is within 10%. A recent speed for LR I got is 48kts...  Can anyone else comment/try to estimate?

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When I saw the doors open I was hopeful today might see three boats on the water. But seeing the HIAB truck in there I think today's probably not a sailing day for Luna Rossa. 
 

P1160314.JPG

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3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Talk about a media production.  The last 1:30 of a 5:55 video is the credits.

I noticed the same thing.  It is handbags, after all.

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3 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Bit of a dig at GB and NZ that time when you have no boat to sail is time wasted

Whenever a competitor starts slagging off at their fellow competitors whether directly or cryptically ( vis-à-vis "Modest" Max), it actually adds unnecessary pressure on them to back it up: cf Jimmy in Bermuda.

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7 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

I imagine the response is that its great sailing a boat that the rig doesn't fall off and the front tear open but hey funny old Max bringing the humor.

if they don't reach the final he is swiftly painting himself into a corer as  cunt number 1

Wasn't Max talking, and I don't think it was a dig at anyone, so much as a comment on logistics and team activity. 

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11 hours ago, buckdouger said:

i'll let someone else figure out the embed - 4 new luna rossa web series vids. 

Good idea

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10 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Talk about a media production.  The last 1:30 of a 5:55 video is the credits.

Yeah I just saw that..! It's silly. But let them be themselves they need to win or lose this their way.! 

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Official bottle of rum prediction: You heard it here first folks. LR is the first to be eliminated. Challenger final is NYYC vs INEOS.

Pick your rum...

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3 hours ago, buckdouger said:

Wasn't Max talking, and I don't think it was a dig at anyone, so much as a comment on logistics and team activity. 

I was referring to "Modest Max's" earlier comments about not being impressed with the Ineos and AM B2s.

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11 hours ago, nroose said:

I have a spreadsheet of ballpark speeds. I think it is within 10%. A recent speed for LR I got is 48kts...  Can anyone else comment/try to estimate?

So LR is 10 kts faster than any other boat currently? 
 

best everyone, kiwis included, pack up now then? 

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Some very nice footage of Luna Rossa today in light conditions and shows them transitioning from displacement to foiling. 

 

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If the video is in real time, they are slow as fuck.

Boat handling ... not good but I suspect they were trying something new.

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4 minutes ago, astro said:

If the video is in real time, they are slow as fuck.

Boat handling ... not good.

Yeah it looked slow and not sure about the video speed.? Almost as if they were testing a mode or something else at times? It looked very light and at times I'm wondering if they were purposely sailing too high to see at what point the boat would stay up or fall down? I'm only surmising? 

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2 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Race 1 Prada vs Britania has ended with a narrow victory to the Italians who crossed the line some 10-15 seconds in front of the British. 

Video of the boats racing below. 

https://www.facebook.com/684407806/videos/10158093230897807/

Any chance of the videos being available on something other than Stalkbook?

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This is from Justin who shot the video above where they look slow. This makes sense. 

Luna Rossa during her day out sailing with the other 2 challengers around. These were her last maneuvers before heading back into port. The westerly had dropped down to around 11kts at Bean Rock (situated out to the right of where this was filmed from). Also bear in mind that as Luna Rossa came across to the left of the screen she was well inside the wind shadow of North Head so the breeze would have been very light at the tack. Wind: 11kts W Filmed from North Head Check the end of the video, I've added a screenshot to show the map with wind direction and general path of the boat in the clip (PredictWind.com screenshot - hopefully its permitted to show?) The pink dot is the camera position.

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5 minutes ago, astro said:

Any chance of the videos being available on something other than Stalkbook?

No unfortunately anything AC comes up on my FB feed and video is video nowadays. 

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32 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

This is from Justin who shot the video above where they look slow. This makes sense. 

Luna Rossa during her day out sailing with the other 2 challengers around. These were her last maneuvers before heading back into port. The westerly had dropped down to around 11kts at Bean Rock (situated out to the right of where this was filmed from). Also bear in mind that as Luna Rossa came across to the left of the screen she was well inside the wind shadow of North Head so the breeze would have been very light at the tack. Wind: 11kts W Filmed from North Head Check the end of the video, I've added a screenshot to show the map with wind direction and general path of the boat in the clip (PredictWind.com screenshot - hopefully its permitted to show?) The pink dot is the camera position.

Justin is doing a great job, not only capturing some good video footage, but also adding useful comments... plus the map showing wind direction at the end!

A very rough estimate suggests the foil was canted at around 15°.

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49 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

No unfortunately anything AC comes up on my FB feed and video is video nowadays. 

Video ain't video when it's on Facebook.

Some people don't go there.

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To my eye, from watching them for ~4 hours today:

Patriot: looks dialed in/easiest to sail. They have her flying stable and controlled. They spent a lot of the time today practicing race skills, with many mark roundings and linked maneuvers. They spent the most time actually sailing out of the three teams.

Britannia 2: Is somewhere between Luna Rossa and Patriot. Showing potential for speed but handling isn't as crispy yet. Given they had the largest change between B1 and B2 I think they're still on the learning curve. Might have had some technical challenges today, windward foil got out of control, main sail was changed. I haven't seen evidence of straight line speed yet.

Luna Rossa: She's a rocket ship in a straight line. They headed away from the other two teams for a while and pushed the pace a bit more. Both times I saw them sailing parallel to Britannia, Luna Rossa had the speed edge. Something about those sails look slicker than the other teams. It's looks a handful to control, it appears they've gone further towards the edge of controllability in the pursuit of speed. For the low number of hours they've sailed in B2 they're looking promosing.

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Here's more video than you're going to see on a real race day! (I deleted half my footage and it it's still stupidly long, sorry)

Best to view it on YouTube, I've put timestamps of a few interesting moments in a pinned comment.

 

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38 minutes ago, astro said:

Video ain't video when it's on Facebook.

Some people don't go there.

Sorry Astro :wacko:

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1 minute ago, terrafirma said:

Sorry Astro :wacko:

Not your fault mate.  I ditched FB after about 18 months when it first came out.

Been more important things than AC videos I have missed out on.  But over all, it's better this way.

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19 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

Here's more video than you're going to see on a real race day! (I deleted half my footage and it it's still stupidly long, sorry)

Best to view it on YouTube, I've put timestamps of a few interesting moments in a pinned comment.

 

Awesome work! Thanks you! Regarding the bit where Ineos is out of sync, the FCS is on battery power, so not dependent on the grinders. 

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6 minutes ago, astro said:

Not your fault mate.  I ditched FB after about 18 months when it first came out.

Been more important things than AC videos I have missed out on.  But over all, it's better this way.

Agree with you mate I only really have it ATM for another AC feed. It will also come in handy at times with the Vendee. Sailor Girl for example uses FB for her live feeds etc etc. 

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Luna Rosa looks very impressive vs Ineos as the end of the video, say from 38:20 onwards. Very low to the water with good control. Interesting to read MikeNZ2's comments/summary re LR's degree of control. Agreed that LR looks fast......they seem to smoke Ineos..... 

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48 minutes ago, Chris UK said:

Luna Rosa looks very impressive vs Ineos as the end of the video, say from 38:20 onwards. Very low to the water with good control. Interesting to read MikeNZ2's comments/summary re LR's degree of control. Agreed that LR looks fast......they seem to smoke Ineos..... 

You mean during that period near the end when LR are closer to the camera? That's just parallax.

 

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There's one person swapping side on Luna Rossa. JS? Bruni? Mainsail trimmer ? 

Amazing video and photos by the way, thank you @mikenz2 and @weta27 ! 

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Of the 3 teams, AM looked the most solid all around with tight, fast turns. LR came in second and a distant third would be RITA, I think I only saw one dry turn by them...

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how can LR fly so low at the stern?

DSC_0228.jpg

is that just a momentary state or can they fly this low for prolonged distances?
Generally speaking, it seems to me that the stern is generally lower than with the other boats and hence the bow a bit higher above the water. What would be the advantage of this?

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8 minutes ago, minca3 said:

how can LR fly so low at the stern?

DSC_0228.jpg

is that just a momentary state or can they fly this low for prolonged distances?
Generally speaking, it seems to me that the stern is generally lower than with the other boats and hence the bow a bit higher above the water. What would be the advantage of this?

There may be an advantage with less airflow under the hull... instead flowing over the deck and along the mainsail for extra pressure.

Also, when lower, they can increase the cant of the leeward foil without the foil surfacing, which provides more lateral (windward) lift, and increases the righting moment a bit.

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53 minutes ago, minca3 said:

how can LR fly so low at the stern?

That was momentary - as per Justin's comments, it seems they have some stability / ride height issues in the lighter conditions.

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9 hours ago, terrafirma said:

The pink dot is the camera position.

The camera position ....

DSC_0171.jpg

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9 minutes ago, weta27 said:

The camera position ....

DSC_0171.jpg

Nice, after so many hours of watching the boats I would be drifting off take pics of rocks and shit...   Gotta hand it to you guys for the dedications and content that you all bring to this site.

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1 hour ago, minca3 said:

how can LR fly so low at the stern?

DSC_0228.jpg

is that just a momentary state or can they fly this low for prolonged distances?
Generally speaking, it seems to me that the stern is generally lower than with the other boats and hence the bow a bit higher above the water. What would be the advantage of this?

I was wonder the same thing.  It looks like the design it set up to be more horizontal without as much of a bow forward tilt.  Completely different look than AM Patriot.

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9 hours ago, mikenz2 said:

To my eye, from watching them for ~4 hours today:

Patriot: looks dialed in/easiest to sail. They have her flying stable and controlled. They spent a lot of the time today practicing race skills, with many mark roundings and linked maneuvers. They spent the most time actually sailing out of the three teams.

Britannia 2: Is somewhere between Luna Rossa and Patriot. Showing potential for speed but handling isn't as crispy yet. Given they had the largest change between B1 and B2 I think they're still on the learning curve. Might have had some technical challenges today, windward foil got out of control, main sail was changed. I haven't seen evidence of straight line speed yet.

Luna Rossa: She's a rocket ship in a straight line. They headed away from the other two teams for a while and pushed the pace a bit more. Both times I saw them sailing parallel to Britannia, Luna Rossa had the speed edge. Something about those sails look slicker than the other teams. It's looks a handful to control, it appears they've gone further towards the edge of controllability in the pursuit of speed. For the low number of hours they've sailed in B2 they're looking promosing.

You can kind of pick that up from the videos that you guys are posting.  It looks Patriot is again focusing on getting a good feel for maneuvers and crew work using these old foils before they switch to a faster, less stable set.

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1 hour ago, minca3 said:



DSC_0228.jpg

 

It may be momentary but in that shot LR does look fucking awesome.....

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1 hour ago, NZK said:

It may be momentary but in that shot LR does look fucking awesome.....

From now to March, it’s just a moment  :) 

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I've also noticed in the recent videos that LR, how to put it?, looks designed to fly pretty low. At least when there's no swell. And a bit more horizontal, too. 
It's by design or they're still unable to manage the new foils?

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TE made an interesting comment during his Sailing Illustrated Live show today, about possible measurement changes LR may need to make. It starts at around 1:55:30

 

 

 

 

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