Luna Rossa Challenge. AC 36

[Zaal 451]

 

 

Brief interview with Vasco Vascotto 

- This was a month full of emotional events: the Antonov transport, the splashing, first B2 flight. 

- Boat flight and maneuvers very well, he says that AC75 are safer than the catamarans.

- Races will be really hard, because it wasn't possible to sail against the competitors previously. 

- Who falls from the foils is lost. The main pre start goal will be make the opponent falling from the foils. 

[enigmatically2 758]

So in Zaal's video (for which thanks) at 3:12 we can see GB cross behind LR so they are further away. When LR turns and the camera zooms out to get both in shot it appears that the angular difference between them stays the same or slightly increases towards the end. This indicates that IF they were travelling in parallel that GB were sailing faster. But we don't know their angles so its all supposition (though stronger evidence than the previous video that apparently  showed LR 'smoking' GB because LR was closer

When they both turn, initially LR seems to catch GB, i.e. the angular difference reduces, This may be because they are closer, sailing faster or at a different angle. So you take your bias and make your choice on that one.

My conclusion? The boats are close enough in speed we cannot as yet tell. Which hopefully will make for a close regatta

[The Main Man 160]

^ I thought the same, similar speeds.

[Boybland 548]

10 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

So in Zaal's video (for which thanks) at 3:12 we can see GB cross behind LR so they are further away. When LR turns and the camera zooms out to get both in shot it appears that the angular difference between them stays the same or slightly increases towards the end. This indicates that IF they were travelling in parallel that GB were sailing faster. But we don't know their angles so its all supposition (though stronger evidence than the previous video that apparently  showed LR 'smoking' GB because LR was closer

When they both turn, initially LR seems to catch GB, i.e. the angular difference reduces, This may be because they are closer, sailing faster or at a different angle. So you take your bias and make your choice on that one.

My conclusion? The boats are close enough in speed we cannot as yet tell. Which hopefully will make for a close regatta

So in conclusion, whichever boat the viewer likes is definitely faster!

[MaxHugen 710]

Yep, and as I'm an Aussie, I reckon ETNZ is fastest... sitting in a warehouse in some undisclosed location.   Even if I am a tad cranky over the Bledisloe Cup... but there's always another decade.

[terrafirma 1,064]

It's so raw from what we see that's it's really impossible to tell if anyone has an edge with their B2's yet? ETNZ will be out shortly and I'm tipping we'll still be confused. Off course we all know that it's very hard to tip against the Kiwis. If you had to bet on the challengers Luna Rossa has to be favorite IMO. 

[mikenz2 1,536]

Boat 1 arrived today along with two new spectator ferries for Explore Group

 

[crashtack 163]

1 hour ago, mikenz2 said:

Boat 1 arrived today along with two new spectator ferries for Explore Group

 

why did they bother shipping b1 all the way over? In case they pull an Oracle?

[mikenz2 1,536]

3 minutes ago, ivansh said:

why did they bother shipping b1 all the way over? In case they pull an Oracle?

To have a backup plan. When you're already shipping over a bunch of chase boats and containers, the additional cost to stick Boat 1 on would be minimal for the peace of mind of having it on hand in case B2 doesn't work out/gets damaged.

[chesirecat 456]

2 minutes ago, mikenz2 said:

To have a backup plan. When you're already shipping over a bunch of chase boats and containers, the additional cost to stick Boat 1 on would be minimal for the peace of mind of having it on hand in case B2 doesn't work out/gets damaged.

Or if TE is correct  B2 re-measurement/structural issues, the last option.

[mikenz2 1,536]

B2 has just headed out, around North Head.

[weta27 4,597]

The first one is specially for the yellow line brigade ... 

[Lickindip 533]

yellow line brigade thanks you

[Priscilla 2,324]

18 minutes ago, weta27 said:

The first one is specially for the yellow line brigade ... 

 

 

Nice composition Weta yellow wise.

Crikey the dinghy davits look plenty strong.

 

[weta27 4,597]

They came back in early, I missed them.

[Forourselves 1,161]

Today...

 

[weta27 4,597]

Thanks Fourourselves, thanks Justin.

Another main?? No flag or logo.

[MaxHugen 710]

3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Today...

 

They are sailing very level at around 2:23 ... can one of our "Veloco-calcers" suggest the speed they're doing at that point?

Around 3:10, they look like they got hit by some gusts, and almost immediately flew much higher.

[enigmatically2 758]

They looked to be flying high quite a lot of the time in fact. More so than usual I thought

[Purple Headed Warrior 88]

The boat looks more lively in that video... Not sure if its just the conditions, or are they trying something else?

I suspect at some point they will be turning off any form of dare I say it 'Herbie' and manually fly these machines...

 

[MaxHugen 710]

12 minutes ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

The boat looks more lively in that video... Not sure if its just the conditions, or are they trying something else?

I suspect at some point they will be turning off any form of dare I say it 'Herbie' and manually fly these machines...

Justin (who took the vid) commented "Wind at time of filming: 10-15kts NE (straight on towards camera POV) sheltered once its in front of Rangitoto."

Looked to me like they got out of the sheltered area and copped some gusts. Maybe?

[mikenz2 1,536]

B1 arrived, and was so excited to be here she started unwrapping as soon as they hit the water.

 

[biff 2]

Really cool to see these boats ripping around but unless I am mistaken they will be hitting boundaries in minutes and will need to be turning far more often. I doubt we will see a boat on one tack or gybe for more than a minute during races.

[mikenz2 1,536]

They also unloaded four more chase boats and "Rig 2", which went straight into the shed.

 

[pusslicker 285]

1 hour ago, biff said:

Really cool to see these boats ripping around but unless I am mistaken they will be hitting boundaries in minutes and will need to be turning far more often. I doubt we will see a boat on one tack or gybe for more than a minute during races.

I'd love to see these on a DOG course. Kind of wasted with the shittiest part of the last two cycles held over.

[Kate short for Bob 266]

3 hours ago, mikenz2 said:

B1 arrived, and was so excited to be here she started unwrapping as soon as they hit the water.

 

Any yellow lines to show any changes since she was last on the water?

[mikenz2 1,536]

Bottom of the mast, a view I haven't seen before:

[minimumfuss 242]

Pretty big flange at the base. The North Sails vid on ETNZ thread suggested passive rotation was mainly used, active turning placed huge loads on the rig (for little gain) Maybe that's why theirs fell over... 

[Mozzy Sails 653]

The other teams are using the boom and tasar style spanner to over rotate the mast... I guess this the Luna rose under deck system. Well, under covering, not sure you can call it a deck. 

[Southern Cross 44]

On 11/7/2020 at 8:48 PM, Zaal said:

LR and Ineos 

Any comments ~ from 4.44 to 6.18 ?

[enigmatically2 758]

4 minutes ago, Southern Cross said:

Any comments ~ from 4.44 to 6.18 ?

GB are further away when they cross. After  LR turns for a while the angular separation grows which implies that GB are a bit faster, then it shrinks which may be due to the relative distances or because LR are faster.

However we don't know the angles either are sailing at so either may have a better VMG at any or all points

[Xlot 835]

On 11/10/2020 at 8:59 AM, mikenz2 said:

Bottom of the mast, a view I haven't seen before:

 

Interesting. The flange plane in the pictures isn’t perpendicular to the spar axis, this means it’s hinged

Is the bearing cup gold plated? One wouldn’t expect anything less from Prada - after all, in the old days they used to nail a silver piece to the mast step, no?

[Southern Cross 44]

29 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

GB are further away when they cross. After  LR turns for a while the angular separation grows which implies that GB are a bit faster, then it shrinks which may be due to the relative distances or because LR are faster.

However we don't know the angles either are sailing at so either may have a better VMG at any or all points

Interesting: I see the speed advantage going to Luna Rosa.

[enigmatically2 758]

8 minutes ago, Southern Cross said:

Interesting: I see the speed advantage going to Luna Rosa.

And it ,may be, but we don't know without knowing the relative distances- and if you look at when they 'cross' LR is quite a lot closer. But in any case that is irrelevant unless we know the angles they were sailing at, You can look at all these videos and see what you want to see generally. 

[Southern Cross 44]

6 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

And it probably is, but we don't know without knowing the relative distances. And that is irrelevant unless we know the angles they were sailing at, You can look at all these videos and see what you want to see generally. 

What I see is Prada closing in on Ineos rapidly (specifically) ~ no generality.

[enigmatically2 758]

5 minutes ago, Southern Cross said:

What I see is Prada closing in on Ineos rapidly (specifically) ~ no generality.

You do understand that closer objects seem to move faster even when they are the same speed (or slower)?

And that if you look at the crossing point, LR's mast higher  than GB's, and thus the former is much closer?

If so then presumably you have calculated the angle subtended by the masts, used te Cosine formula to calculate the relative distances and then used simple right angle trig to calculate the orthogonal speeds. Then of course you measured the angles subtended by the hulls to calculate the relative angles and used that to adjust for VMG. I'd love to see your workings

 

[Southern Cross 44]

21 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

You do understand that closer objects seem to move faster even when they are the same speed (or slower)?

And that if you look at the crossing point, LR's mast higher  than GB's, and thus the former is much closer?

If so then presumably you have calculated the angle subtended by the masts, used te Cosine formula to calculate the relative distances and then used simple right angle trig to calculate the orthogonal speeds. Then of course you measured the angles subtended by the hulls to calculate the relative angles and used that to adjust for VMG. I'd love to see your workings

 

I have been on the water watching AC yachts for years in a professional capacity ~ I think I can make a reasoned judgement. Luna Rosa closed in on Ineos at a  rapid pace.

[enigmatically2 758]

3 minutes ago, Southern Cross said:

I have been on the water watching AC yachts for years in a professional capacity ~ I think I can make a reasoned judgement. Luna Rosa closed in on Ineos at a  rapid pace.

Oddly enough I have seen that before where pilots were convinced they could judge such things. They were wrong too. And we proved it

And people's perception is even more distorted when not watching live but on a high zoom camera. 

You asked for comments, but you don't want any that disagree with your flawed perception. So why did you ask?

[JonRowe 723]

1 hour ago, Southern Cross said:

I have been on the water watching AC yachts for years in a professional capacity ~ I think I can make a reasoned judgement. Luna Rosa closed in on Ineos at a  rapid pace.

I couldn't help but think "hand bags vs sand bags" I mean its possibly both boats are going full noise, but if you were a little bit slower wouldn't you depower just to make it seem like you were a lot slower?

[Stingray~ 1,407]

4 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Interesting. The flange plane in the pictures isn’t perpendicular to the spar axis, this means it’s hinged

Is the bearing cup gold plated? One wouldn’t expect anything less from Prada - after all, in the old days they used to nail a silver piece to the mast step, no?

That it is hinged caught my attention too, I wonder if they all are and why it is useful? 
 

That bearing cup is the same color as what DZ’s wings had, I  forget the material’s type. 

[Xlot 835]

5 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

That bearing cup is the same color as what DZ’s wings had, I  forget the material’s type. 

Hmm ... I believe that was kevlar, so no

 

[Stingray~ 1,407]

2 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Hmm ... I believe that was kevlar, so no

Bingo, it was Kevlar. Sure looks the same color? 

[buckdouger 245]

8 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Interesting. The flange plane in the pictures isn’t perpendicular to the spar axis, this means it’s hinged

Is the bearing cup gold plated? One wouldn’t expect anything less from Prada - after all, in the old days they used to nail a silver piece to the mast step, no?

Hate to ask but I can't see what you are referring to - any yellow lines you could add? 

[buckdouger 245]

3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Bingo, it was Kevlar. Sure looks the same color? 

It has to be something with high hardness. Possibly just a coating over steel, or titanium. E.g. https://www.canadianmetalworking.com/canadianmetalworking/article/cuttingtools/a-guide-to-titanium-based-coatings

[Xlot 835]

10 minutes ago, buckdouger said:

Hate to ask but I can't see what you are referring to - any yellow lines you could add? 

We get a frontal view of the bottom flange, while the spar - to which it’s attached, you see it supported by the red sling - is clearly at a 45 degree angle. So, there’s got to be a hinge

[nroose 189]

28 minutes ago, Xlot said:

We get a frontal view of the bottom flange, while the spar - to which it’s attached, you see it supported by the red sling - is clearly at a 45 degree angle. So, there’s got to be a hinge

Nah. The spar is almost straight in the direction of the photo, but the zoom makes it look like it's more of an angle, and the flange is almost perpendicular to the direction of the photo, but again, the zoom makes it look exactly perpendicular. No evidence in the photo that the flange and the mast are not perpendicular to each other and unable to change that.

[buckdouger 245]

2 minutes ago, nroose said:

Nah. The spar is almost straight in the direction of the photo, but the zoom makes it look like it's more of an angle, and the flange is almost perpendicular to the direction of the photo, but again, the zoom makes it look exactly perpendicular. No evidence in the photo that the flange and the mast are not perpendicular to each other and unable to change that.

If I look at the aperture in the flange below the step, you can see the thickness of the flange on one side but not the other. I think it's an illusion perhaps.

[animeproblem 222]

9 hours ago, Southern Cross said:

What I see is Prada closing in on Ineos rapidly (specifically) ~ no generality.

I'll drink to this.

 

 

 

 

(Or I would if it were later in the day, going to go rake leaves instead, so maybe later).

[A3A 86]

1 hour ago, nroose said:

Nah. The spar is almost straight in the direction of the photo, but the zoom makes it look like it's more of an angle, and the flange is almost perpendicular to the direction of the photo, but again, the zoom makes it look exactly perpendicular. No evidence in the photo that the flange and the mast are not perpendicular to each other and unable to change that.

The flange is spanner to rotate the mast. As such, it must be parallel to the deck surface while the mast is raked in relation to the deck. Unlikely it is hinged, but quite probably that they are not perpendicular to each other fore and aft.

[nroose 189]

2 minutes ago, A3A said:

The flange is spanner to rotate the mast. As such, it must be parallel to the deck surface while the mast is raked in relation to the deck. Unlikely it is hinged, but quite probably that they are not perpendicular to each other fore and aft.

The mast doesn't rotate on it's axis? Seems like that would cause problems of all sorts. Anyway, sure. I actually meant side to side perpendicular.

[Stingray~ 1,407]

20 minutes ago, nroose said:

The mast doesn't rotate on it's axis? 

Agree, it must surely have plenty of rotation, rake of all kinds, just by the ball. Sure was a weird pic, though, I almost posted about it before X did. 

[Xlot 835]

33 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Agree, it must surely have plenty of rotation

Actually not that much, way less than on beach cats: with AWA at a constant 18 degrees, you probably want no more than 30 degrees each side. The shrouds arrangement with pivoting spreaders wouldn’t allow much more anyway

As a side note, D section spars with double skin sails need to rotate much less than teardrop spars with single sais

 

[mikenz2 1,536]

More mast, from today, fully rigged:

[mikenz2 1,536]

Foils got a final wipe down before being lifted into the water:
 

[mikenz2 1,536]

Launching this morning:

[Stingray~ 1,407]

1 hour ago, mikenz2 said:
 

 

Awesome photos. Dumb question: that thing is not hollow, is it? With a tip still to be added? 

[Stingray~ 1,407]

[Kate short for Bob 266]

18 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Awesome photos. Dumb question: that thing is not hollow, is it? With a tip still to be added? 

Are you vision impaired?  The tip is there it just appears blacker than the rest of the foil.

[MaxHugen 710]

3 hours ago, mikenz2 said:

Foils got a final wipe down before being lifted into the water:

Thanks Mike, our SAS team is on the job!     Couple of interesting things:

1. The foil appears to have a quite a "sharp" Leading Edge, and a relatively thin section. That's "fast" - low drag - but it needs to be very carefully angled during flight so the AoA doesn't cause boundary layer separation starting right at the LE, destroying the foil's lift. LR will need to be precise.
2. The "initial" AoA of the foil (to the perpendicular) appears to be much lower that I'd originally guessed - perhaps less than 1°.  This suggests that LR have designed B2 to fly quite level at all wind strengths. It may also require them to deploy a quite a bit of draggy flap to take-of.  Not using hull AoA to substantially set foil AoA also has CoE and weather/lee helm ramifications - flying "bow down" moves the CoE slightly forward.
3. The 400kg or thereabouts of ballast weight is presumably mostly buried in the black lower portion of the foil arm. I don't think they would want too much extra weight in the foil wings, and there's probably not much volume available anyway after allowing for structural components.

[weta27 4,597]

[weta27 4,597]

[weta27 4,597]

[weta27 4,597]

[crashtack 163]

36 minutes ago, weta27 said:

Is that a 12footer in the background of the first one? That bowsprit doesn't look ridiculous enough...

Great photos though, wallpaper-worthy stuff.

[Woolfy 277]

6 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Looks to me like the flap could slide forward into the void, makes for much reduced wet surface area... Less drag, but you'd end up with a weird shaped trailing edge, so maybe a shape that reduces cavitation or complete load of bollocks brought on by one too many Steingrenades.

Flail away.

[Nodrog 42]

3 hours ago, weta27 said:

 

 

 

Cool shot !! what time was this taken @weta27? Was off the north shore around 5pm and saw them pull a pretty significant wheely and crash down in the distance, stopped pretty quickly!  Dropped the jib afterwards and towed home. 

[weta27 4,597]

This was around 5pm, just off Torpedo Bay, but they carried on sailing afterwards.

@airflownz will have some nice video footage of the incident, he was alongside me.

Here is a closer crop:

[weta27 4,597]

A bit blurry, but you get the idea ...

[Nodrog 42]

nice! the spill I saw was prob further out,  they would have been by northern leading, not certain on the timing, was sailing too... 

[MastaVonBlasta 130]

 

Up in the sky moment 11:55 into the video. I wish it was also shown in real speed, not just slow-mo

[Purple Headed Warrior 88]

Looks to me like they handled it pretty well....

[Revelry 26]

3 hours ago, ivansh said:

Is that a 12footer in the background of the first one? That bowsprit doesn't look ridiculous enough...

Great photos though, wallpaper-worthy stuff.

That was us!! Testing out a new kite off the short prod, quite a different sailing style with a high aspect shape. Seemed fast though! 

LR sailed underneath us, tacked around and we thought they were off to north head. Low and behold they pop in a bear away and are pointing straight at us. We just hold our course and they fly past tens of meters away. Bone quiet, barely heard a whistle. No wind shadow that we felt. Pretty hard to comprehend what was happening before you, then they were gone. 

Probably the closest we'll ever get to see these boats in action... then we had to negotiate the white water from all the case boats.

It's cool, I always catch the AC support taking notice of the 12. They probably don't get them in the northern hemisphere. We joke they're scouting for more crew... Nailed some good gybes today, just saying! 

[Zaal 451]

 

Did they add some sort of "blade" or "mini-keel" ?? Seems like it wasn't there at the splashing !!

[JALhazmat 1,175]

and they laughed at the stick on version that Ineos had in Sardinia..

 

[rh3000 1,612]

37 minutes ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Looks to me like they handled it pretty well....

Still no pitch poles! Where is TC et al on this eh?

[enigmatically2 758]

1 hour ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Looks to me like they handled it pretty well....

Perhaps, but that sort of event for any team could mean they lose that race. So that top mark could be one to watch. 

I read something that says that the course limits will mean they will hit the edge in 1 minute from start, so I assume 2 mins side to side. Given the time lost for splashdown it does show how important all the corners are going to be. At least some races that  will decide the winner, not speed

 

 

[Xlot 835]

1 hour ago, Zaal said:

 

Did they add some sort of "blade" or "mini-keel" ?? Seems like it wasn't there at the splashing !!

Worth investigating ashore. But I’ve been stung too many times with false reflections on these shiny hulls

[Zaal 451]

16 minutes ago, Xlot said:

Worth investigating ashore. But I’ve been stung too many times with false reflections on these shiny hulls

 

You are right, but look at these cropped images, seems to be really there, also from the back. I lightened the blacks when the boat was ashore and there's is a "separation line" like in the other pics. I'm pretty sure this "blade" keel is really there this time around  

[Zaal 451]

 

Here other two pics, I lightened the blacks of this photo, which was taken some days ago, and it's still there, so it's at least a couple days that they added this blade keel. It was easier to spot it with the bright  sunlight of the last sailing pics. 

[Xlot 835]

@Zaal I believe you, but to be sure there’s only one thing:

@weta27 and @mikenz2 your mission, should you choose to accept it, is ...

 

 

[Zaal 451]

59 minutes ago, Xlot said:

@Zaal I believe you, but to be sure there’s only one thing:

@weta27 and @mikenz2 your mission, should you choose to accept it, is ...

 

 

Hahahaha this message will self destruct in five seconds 

[weta27 4,597]

Nah, just the various reflections ...

Too many conspiracy theories flying around here these days!

Here we go, nothing to see.

.... oh my goodness me????!!!

[Xlot 835]

This must be what they were installing the week they didn’t sail.

Shall we call it the Zaal keelet?

 

[Xlot 835]

I’m thinking that the combination of no masking, sailing in proximity of land and the infernal curiosity of enthusiasts must be giving ulcers to designers and team managers

Nothing escapes the SAAC Inquisition!   

 

[Zaal 451]

32 minutes ago, Xlot said:

This must be what they were installing the week they didn’t sail.

Shall we call it the Zaal keelet?

 

It would be a honor for me, @Xlot my friend  But it's the awesome work of @weta27, @mikenz2 and others like them that make this "discoveries" possible, just as you said  

[weta27 4,597]

We were treated to a fantastic display, for over an hour, with LR doing laps of what seemed to be B Course, or possibly some hybrid of B and C.

These pics are not meant to be any indication of the quality of the sailing, which was very impressive.

I just like the splash shots!

[enigmatically2 758]

12 minutes ago, Xlot said:

I’m thinking that the combination of no masking, sailing in proximity of land and the infernal curiosity of enthusiasts must be giving ulcers to designers and team managers

Nobody escapes the SAAC Inquisition!   

 

Having been one of the designers for something that spawned 'enthusiasts' posting their opinions on a number of forums, the most maddening thing was not being able to tell them what bollocks they were talking, especially when criticising our design on the basis of complete ignorance