strider470

Luna Rossa Challenge. AC 36

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^ Well found.

Good for them

'flat footed' still

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Top Nacra 17 sailor Ruggero Tita joined the team

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1 hour ago, Zeusproject said:

34777055-34FC-4A16-B401-682E10C2AD28.jpeg 

 

Would appear to have diamond wires on the spreaders - different from AC75 renderings and The Mule. Very slim mast too

 

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Interesting in the first shot I can't see any foils on the ends of the arms, presumably some were bolted on before the boat was splashed?

 

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They're there, but very faint (painted white against white background).

Outlined here:

lr.jpeg

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Can't wait to see them flying - interesting rig maybe trying to scale the real thing?

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15 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

Would appear to have diamond wires on the spreaders - different from AC75 renderings and The Mule. Very slim mast too

 

Are the foils hidden behind a curtain? Inserted in a slot covering half way down the arm? I saw this first look at the photo, only on my mobile ATM.

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The Italian surrogate looks interesting. Seems to have a lower profile than the Mule, with a more conventional cockpit, rather than pod arrangement. Rudder looks different - sliding fin on a gantry mount. The foils are hard to make out in those shots, although they look to be very fine, low drag, and flat profiled, rather than the anhedrals seen on Mini Frack. The mast looks finer than the Mules as well. Look forward to seeing some footage of it zipping along. Some of the teaser shots released by LR seem to be of this boat.

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The Italian boat looks smaller than the Mule - to my eyes. Seems to be sized more like Mini Frack, although beamier.

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Good for them. Some 8 months behind and better late than never, but either way a shed load of development time lost. Top of main possibly better than Mule don't you think. Grant Simmer last October. "With T5, the hull shape development was not really part of the project and we just chose a hull that was suitable for our purposes,” and  "But it’s fair to say that [beyond the hull shape] we have learnt a lot from sailing the boat. It’s not necessarily all come as a surprise, as we have done a lot of simulation at the same time, but there are a few characteristics surrounding the dynamic behaviour of the boat that have surprised "

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From the Sailing Illustrated story, this pic is a pretty good view of the foils. The main foils are certainly thin, likely not a lot of righting moment. Time for some INEOS style outrigger floats? :-)

75ec71_25270e027ac544f7b03937b66afa74cd~

 

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I'm guessing the RM would be 'to scale'. Not much point in going to that much trouble but getting that all important factor wrong. Are you thinking the foils need to be more massive to reach the weight target? Don't see why.

No point in adding more bouyancy either, looks 'as expected' to me. Crank the foils, get the crew weight where it's supposed to be and it will self-right......according to the a computer in Auckland anyway.

Early days for them, but that should at least be the closest to the final hull form we have seen so far, let's hope they got it right and it is a 'raceable'

concept.

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7 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

The Italian boat looks smaller than the Mule - to my eyes. Seems to be sized more like Mini Frack, although beamier.

Disappointing

 

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Windward capsize, the first day, in no wind, without added bouyancy on the side, and seemingly without ballast.

Tricky boat, they are one year late vs the brits and about the same vs AM. Interesting info, the simulation don't give all the info.

And we don't know if kiwis are secretly trying a boat somewhere or are still relying on their simulator.

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1 hour ago, Xlot said:

Disappointing

Does look a little underwhelming. I would've thought they'd have gone for a max sized surrogate.

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Windward capsize, the first day, in no wind, without added bouyancy on the side, and seemingly without ballast.

Tricky boat, they are one year late vs the brits and about the same vs AM. Interesting info, the simulation don't give all the info.

And we don't know if kiwis are secretly trying a boat somewhere or are still relying on their simulator.

It looks more like a capsize trial to check the rerighting with foil canting

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1 hour ago, 17mika said:

It looks more like a capsize trial to check the rerighting with foil canting

Yup. Was trying to figure out what was going on with the crew on the low side in the first picture.

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Pretty much an oversized dinghy that thing!

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10 hours ago, barfy said:

Yup. Was trying to figure out what was going on with the crew on the low side in the first picture.

In a boat with very little stability and crew for ballast, a windward capsize in light fluky breeze is not uncommon, especially the first time out. Ask anyone who's tried a skiff Moth. ;-)

But I agree that it was likely deliberate.

I have no idea what the foils should weigh to be properly at scale, but working on 50%:

  1. Steel is roughly 7.8g/cc, so to get to 500kg would require about 64,000cc.
  2. If the foils are 2m long (200cm) and average 0.3m chord (30cm), that's a plan of .6m2 (6,000cm2)
  3. An average thickness of about 0.1m (10cm) would give  480kg

Is that reasonable? 10cm seems pretty thick to me as an average, so maybe the foils are closer to 200~250kg each?

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Article on Gazzetta dello sport this morning says they're launching boat 1 on August 29th

ventoevele.gazzetta.it/2019/06/10/luna-rossa-mette-in-acqua-la-barca-test-a-cagliari/

 

Mic

 

 

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How long will it take before they are foiling on the small boat? It will be a good indication of how steep is the "on water" learning curve. They surely have plenty of information from observations of the Mule and T5. This should also translate pretty well to the big boats for the teams who don't have a surrogate...

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It's Rally Sardinia this weekend for the World Rally Championship and Jimmy Spittal had ride during shakedown this morning.

It's here https://youtu.be/_dTW72nvtPk?t=1864 if anyone is interested.

 

Edited by laser 173312
tidy up link

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https://www.sailweb.co.uk/2019/06/13/luna-rossas-new-ac36-test-boat-it-floats-it-foils/

 

AC36_Luna_Rossa_More_Test_Boat_2_1306201

AC36_Luna_Rossa_More_Test_Boat_13062019.

note cropped photos so the foils are still hiding despite photos of their foils existing. Similar high aspect ratio pointed elliptical foil. A mix between the extreme of mini frack and the mule. It's certainly an efficient design, but it's not as 'out there' as the 'muricans or Brits. 

 

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More 'out there' surely!? Made for the job/designed to the rule, without the 'wrong hulls' of the other 2 and without all the fussy above deck "can't jam it under the deck" carry on of Frackinstein.....

And whata ya know, it works - even with crew to leeward.

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38 minutes ago, nav said:

More 'out there' surely!? Made for the job/designed to the rule, without the 'wrong hulls' of the other 2 and without all the fussy above deck "can't jam it under the deck" carry on of Frackinstein.....

And whata ya know, it works - even with crew to leeward.

Meh, the foil just doesn't look extreme compared to INEOS and American Magic - we've been spoiled, these are still cutting edge - but for all we know prada has a completely different wing profile that will put the other to shame but that is something we will never see nor find out. On a different note the horizontal rudder foil on all the known test boats compared to the Y shaped rudder foil from ETNZ's ac50. Definitely something going on there. I thin they're playing around with rake instead just like F1 teams these days. 

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The Italian mini foiler looks good in those shots. Seems to be purpose built and not adapted from a keel or centre board design. The helm is set way forward, being quite small she's obviously sensitive to crew weight. The tapered sheer line looks pretty suave.

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14 hours ago, Raptorsailor said:

Meh, the foil just doesn't look extreme compared to INEOS and American Magic - we've been spoiled, these are still cutting edge - but for all we know prada has a completely different wing profile that will put the other to shame but that is something we will never see nor find out. On a different note the horizontal rudder foil on all the known test boats compared to the Y shaped rudder foil from ETNZ's ac50. Definitely something going on there. I thin they're playing around with rake instead just like F1 teams these days. 

rake? F1?

thats with the purpose of expanding diffuser volume at the back of the car to create extra downforce from the cars underbody, and only works if you can seal the floor.

How is that got anything to do with the AC? 

 

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Obviously designed by a bowman. Skipper is forward to get wet while the bowman relaxes back in the dry area! :D

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8 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

rake? F1?

thats with the purpose of expanding diffuser volume at the back of the car to create extra downforce from the cars underbody, and only works if you can seal the floor.

How is that got anything to do with the AC? 

 

The rake of the foil to increase lift. I should say increasing the incidence (aoa)

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^ thinking raptor, ( shameless plug for winning Canadian team here), means f50 rudders and associated rake.

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10 hours ago, barfy said:

^ thinking raptor, ( shameless plug for winning Canadian team here), means f50 rudders and associated rake.

So nothing to do with F1then.. 

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5 hours ago, barfy said:

Is it double skin main? Looks a bit fine on the track to be double.

Look at this photo a little closer:

On 6/14/2019 at 3:32 AM, Raptorsailor said:

AC36_Luna_Rossa_More_Test_Boat_13062019.

Single skin, the clew is as high tech as a Laser's. No disrespect, it seems to do the job. Also shows a single skin main is absolutely fine for a foiling mono.

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6 hours ago, RobG said:

 

 

Look at this photo a little closer:

Single skin, the clew is as high tech as a Laser's. No disrespect, it seems to do the job. Also shows a single skin main is absolutely fine for a foiling mono.

And I couldn't keep my eyes off the sexy stern lines.

Was also trying to see how rudder rake was being accomplished, not a lot hidden back there, and not much evidence of hydro or such.

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Who are on the test boat?

Try reading previous posts (#831)

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16 hours ago, barfy said:

Is it double skin main? Looks a bit fine on the track to be double.

Could be, zoom in. Is that camber strips you can see on the leeward side of the main? 

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

Thank you.  Who is the third person?

Not clear. Could be JS or more likely 49er sailor Pietro Sibello

 

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I have to say the hull and foil arrangement on this little thing is quite pretty and really growing on me! Swooping lines and nice relaxed crew positions, it looks like an old wooden inboard sports boat redone in carbon fibre with sail power!

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8 hours ago, barfy said:

And I couldn't keep my eyes off the sexy stern lines.

Was also trying to see how rudder rake was being accomplished, not a lot hidden back there, and not much evidence of hydro or such.

There may not be much to see. A simple lever arrangement with screw or hydraulic adjustment would do the job and sit at the bottom of the transom. The foil arm adjustment mechanism is much larger and it's all hidden under the deck. It shows how much nicer these can look given a bespoke hull.

Dunno about the helm position though. A key part of helming is timing manoeuvres with crew trimming, hoisting and setting sails. Hard to do when the crew and most of the mainsail are behind you. I think the feel of the boat and wind would be different too. Maybe not detrimental to performance, but different.

The foils look like oversized Moth foils, a pretty good place to start.

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

Dunno about the helm position though. A key part of helming is timing manoeuvres with crew trimming, hoisting and setting sails. Hard to do when the crew and most of the mainsail are behind you. I think the feel of the boat and wind would be different too. Maybe not detrimental to performance, but different.

It would be so different. I drove a few different passenger cats, maneuvering mostly from the wings. One had the wing station 3 m from the bow on a 24m Vessel. It was a cool perspective on stern swing, didn't take long to enjoy it.

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

There may not be much to see. A simple lever arrangement with screw or hydraulic adjustment would do the job and sit at the bottom of the transom. The foil arm adjustment mechanism is much larger and it's all hidden under the deck. It shows how much nicer these can look given a bespoke hull.

Don't you think that rudder rake will be more dynamic? Like the old :) foil box rams? There is a small black transom thing with the pintles and gudgeons mounted, the entire assembly would have to cant I reckon.

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My first impression is that it looks like a single skin main to me too. Although that top section, the grey bit, there's more to that than meets the eye.

Looks like that section at least is twin skin you can see a bulge where there's some sort of batten like support internally, but no stitch line, indicating it's not in a conventional pocket. I know the rules allow twist control/additional support in the top section of the twin skin set up. So maybe it is a twin skin sail, if only in that top section? 

Be great to get a few more pictures....maybe one with the sail down so we can see the track arrangement. LR have been playing with this twin skin set up for a while now, we could actually be looking at a more refined twin skin main than has been seen on the other surrogates making it difficult to spot the giveaways that made it more obvious on those.

Just love the overall look of the complete (mini) package, I reckon the 75's could actually end up looking real sweet.

 

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1 minute ago, Flippin Out said:

So we have The Mule and Mini Frack, what are we christening this one ??

The Trolley. 

E253E3C6-ADBC-43C1-A060-61F6955A49FB.jpeg

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Lunetta Rossa 

seems to be the Team's designation for now

As someone else noticed it has something of the old 'Woody' powerboats about it - so 'Riva' maybe......

Baaaaarca?

D9Ay4c7WkAIeZrF.jpg:large

 

62435477_1534287773373288_12185519850289

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3 hours ago, Flippin Out said:

So we have The Mule and Mini Frack, what are we christening this one ??

It’s being called Lunarossino or Monokitten, apparently.

Let’s wait until June 21, for the team’s official presentation

 

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As an advantage of the small size, per the Italian press probably LR will field two test boats (remember Swordfish and Piranha?). Apart from the obvious purpose of foils comparison and starting tactics, this should pit Bruni vs. JS for the helmsman role

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5 hours ago, Xlot said:

It’s being called Lunarossino or Monokitten, apparently.

Let’s wait until June 21, for the team’s official presentation

 

Nana Rossa :D

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16 hours ago, barfy said:

Don't you think that rudder rake will be more dynamic? Like the old :) foil box rams? There is a small black transom thing with the pintles and gudgeons mounted, the entire assembly would have to cant I reckon.

I don't think it needs to be more dynamic, it just controls pitch attitude. ±4° may be enough.

13 hours ago, Woolfy said:

My first impression is that it looks like a single skin main to me too. Although that top section, the grey bit, there's more to that than meets the eye.

Flotation?

 

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2 hours ago, RobG said:

Flotation

Hmmm that's a thought, it is required.... Question is can they control the shape and angle of attack?

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If I see correctly the helm has a central wheel which could help tack and gybe quickly without any move from the helmsman. Not sure it will replicated on Maxi Luna though.

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

If I see correctly the helm has a central wheel which could help tack and gybe quickly without any move from the helmsman. Not sure it will replicated on Maxi Luna though.

Back to the safety discussion, as I thought the crew positions are much more enclosed than in the canoe hulls of the cats. Waists to shoulder line below deck for all crew. Much better aero, at one set of controls continuously during all maneuvers, better protected from impact, better green water protection.  As you say, it will impact maneuvers significantly.

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1 minute ago, barfy said:

Back to the safety discussion, as I thought the crew positions are much more enclosed than in the canoe hulls of the cats. Waists to shoulder line below deck for all crew. Much better aero, at one set of controls continuously during all maneuvers, better protected from impact, better green water protection.  As you say, it will impact maneuvers significantly.

The central helm may impact positively, I agree, I have seen that on a trifoiler and it is pretty impressive. However we don't know if Mini Kitty and Maxi Kitty will be organized the same way.

 

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4 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The central helm may impact positively, I agree, I have seen that on a trifoiler and it is pretty impressive. However we don't know if Mini Kitty and Maxi Kitty will be organized the same way.

 

I'd guess when we see etnz's surrogate it will even even further down the evolutionary path. And then all the boat 1's!!  Although hulls shapes have probably been locked for ages,aero dev has been rapid during the previous cycle,no reason to think that would change.

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I aldo read that max. beam is more forward and bow volumes much fuller than on other surrogates, which are constrained by “conventional” molds

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