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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

The Next Boat-----2020

821 posts in this topic

Lot of use of the word "yachting" by TNZ management in the press conference. I think Dalton said something to the effect: 'we have to preserve the yachting aspect-I don't know if pushing oil around does that'. Also-'I'm not sure these boats would survive in the conditions we have down there'. These are not direct quotes but paraphrases as I remember them. And then you add in Luna Rosa  it begins to seem like a mono "yacht" may be the next boat-sailing for the masses to yachting for the yachties? Seems pretty scary for the future Cup to me......... Maybe we'll know more in a couple of weeks?

Congratulations to Team New Zealand!

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57 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Lot of use of the word "yachting" by TNZ management in the press conference. I think Dalton said something to the effect: 'we have to preserve the yachting aspect-I don't know if pushing oil around does that'. Also-'I'm not sure these boats would survive in the conditions we have down there'. These are not direct quotes but paraphrases as I remember them. And then you add in Luna Rosa  it begins to seem like a mono "yacht" may be the next boat-sailing for the masses to yachting for the yachties? Seems pretty scary for the future Cup to me......... Maybe we'll know more in a couple of weeks?

Congratulations to Team New Zealand!

The one reason why i would like to see them go for monohulls is that it would mean you would fuck off and leave us in peace;)

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28 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

The one reason why i would like to see them go for monohulls is that it would mean you would fuck off and leave us in peace;)

Don't count on it.........

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1 hour ago, Doug Lord said:

Lot of use of the word "yachting" by TNZ management in the press conference. I think Dalton said something to the effect: 'we have to preserve the yachting aspect-I don't know if pushing oil around does that'. Also-'I'm not sure these boats would survive in the conditions we have down there'. These are not direct quotes but paraphrases as I remember them. And then you add in Luna Rosa  it begins to seem like a mono "yacht" may be the next boat-sailing for the masses to yachting for the yachties? Seems pretty scary for the future Cup to me......... Maybe we'll know more in a couple of weeks?

Congratulations to Team New Zealand!

FYI - 'Yachting' is just the term NZers use instead of 'sailing'. If you're the skipper of an Opti, you're a yachtsman (yachtswoman), or more commonly a 'yachtie'.

The terms, Sailing and sailor are little used in NZ

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How did your "they will only use one design of board" work out. If you are going to keep posting in the next cycle, you can use the downtime to better understand foils and racing, because this time you got it badly wrong.

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"TN_K"--unfortunately, to many Americans it comes across as elitism-especially to those not actively involved in sailing-some of the people TV tries to reach.

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1 minute ago, Team_GBR said:

How did your "they will only use one design of board" work out. If you are going to keep posting in the next cycle, you can use the downtime to better understand foils and racing, because this time you got it badly wrong.

I don't mind making mistakes-- I was a lot closer than you realize-the story will be interesting when it comes out. Thinking outside the "follow the others" philosophy you embrace is tricky but can pay off big---or not. But you'll never know......

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Interesting thread.

I sometimes read that some would have interest in code 0, it is incompatible with a foiling multi, and perhaps too with a good foiling mono.

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How about a variation of this for AC36?

nvs1nm.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Not every foiler has to be designed to be the very fastest thing on water-slightly slower flying boats capable of handling rougher water could work with-maybe- soft sails and different downwind sails.

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12 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

"TN_K"--unfortunately, to many Americans it comes across as elitism-especially to those not actively involved in sailing-some of the people TV tries to reach.

but, we don't care what American tv audiences think - and nor should we. Keen American sailors who follow international sailing (yachting) will know this language diff and will not think twice about it.

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6 minutes ago, WetHog said:

How about a variation of this for AC36?

nvs1nm.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

Assuming courses of a couple hundred miles, why not?

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How about all electronics allowed except the following conditions.

No hydro allowed.

No electric winches or systems allowed.

No systems except mechanical to be used  for any crew member duties.

That way we move forward on technology but limit  to what the crew's ability on the boat will do on the overall race.

Just a thought.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

Assuming courses of a couple hundred miles, why not?

GD said yachting was fractured. What if these boats were raced as part of the VOR to NZ where they would race the LV and AC in the same mode?

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Do not forget that safety is still fresh on the mind after losing Bart during the 2013 cycle. The AC50 rule also came about not only in order to reduce costs but also because the sailors were literally afraid of the 72s before and of course even more after the tragedy.

Having all of the hulls, beams, spine and pod structure one design on the AC50 cut costs but kept the teams from pushing the design envelope too hard and compromising the structural integrity of the boats. 

It's my understanding that ETNZs boat was the only boat built by Southern Spars and the rest of the boats were built by Core. Is this actually the case?

The AC72s were a spectacle, and so were the 50s. Watching the 50s tear up the race course during this cycle made the 72s look like they were lumbering around the course 4 short years ago.

The cup needs stability and it needs to change hands in order to thrive. Especially if it is to become a mainstream sport as RC dreamed of. 

I would not be surprised if LE cleaned house and was back again, but with who? I can't imagine he would just walk away after respectfully losing it.

People who still want to see 12 meters are insane. Yes, I love to watch the old footage, but only because its nostalgic. RC & LE did a lot of good for the cup. I never thought that I would meet random people who do not sail and ask me if I watch the AC. The RBYAC is a breeding ground for the next line of talent. 

Let's pray ETNZ & LR don't revert back to monos. I don't care how many foils you put on it. It's not going to make for good TV. 

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9 minutes ago, Geronimo said:

Do not forget that safety is still fresh on the mind after losing Bart during the 2013 cycle. The AC50 rule also came about not only in order to reduce costs but also because the sailors were literally afraid of the 72s before and of course even more after the tragedy.

Having all of the hulls, beams, spine and pod structure one design on the AC50 cut costs but kept the teams from pushing the design envelope too hard and compromising the structural integrity of the boats. 

It's my understanding that ETNZs boat was the only boat built by Southern Spars and the rest of the boats were built by Core. Is this actually the case?

The AC72s were a spectacle, and so were the 50s. Watching the 50s tear up the race course during this cycle made the 72s look like they were lumbering around the course 4 short years ago.

The cup needs stability and it needs to change hands in order to thrive. Especially if it is to become a mainstream sport as RC dreamed of. 

I would not be surprised if LE cleaned house and was back again, but with who? I can't imagine he would just walk away after respectfully losing it.

People who still want to see 12 meters are insane. Yes, I love to watch the old footage, but only because its nostalgic. RC & LE did a lot of good for the cup. I never thought that I would meet random people who do not sail and ask me if I watch the AC. The RBYAC is a breeding ground for the next line of talent. 

Let's pray ETNZ & LR don't revert back to monos. I don't care how many foils you put on it. It's not going to make for good TV. 

Not good for TV? Really?

P1000785.JPG

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2 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Not good for TV? Really?

P1000785.JPG

comparing 10 minutes of a restricted course fleet race to possibly 1 hour of open water match racing.... :lol:

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3 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Not good for TV? Really?

P1000785.JPG

EH, you might have me there. But I'm not sure non-sailors will sit and watch a 1 to 2 hour race. 

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

How about a variation of this for AC36?

nvs1nm.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

jacques_vabre_4350-1024x683.jpg

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How about MANUAL powered tougher foiling tris?  50+ footers, soft sails and no design limit?  I was totally frustrated by the tiny courses for boats with such fast legs.  A good 3 mile wide weather leg would have been much more exciting in any multi.  Talk about a lead change on a shift, upwind or down!

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Those things are damn awesome to watch up close.

They exude power not speed.  Its akin to being passed by a loco at 60 mph as compared to a car at 100 mph.   I know which is more scary/thrilling.

90 ft mono box rule.  Fix max LOA, Bmax,  max draft,  max Air height, min mass  and min and max righting moments, some exotic material restrictions and go from there.

Preferable parameters that will allow dual modeing - inshore and offshore

 

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None of the monos will go much faster than the wind. To do 30knts in 6knts of wind is cool. The 20 minute race is good for TV. Longer races is just good if they are very close abd when was that the case in AC?

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I think we should take Daltons words in the context of the cylors rather than multi/mono.

Decisions on the venue have to be made first. If they're happy enough with the format of the racing to hold it off the City (a stated aim) then that means one thing for the boats. If it's out in the gulf that's another altogether.

..

Personally the AC72s showed that these boats can be fly and be trimmed with out the same degree of stored power. That's one way to go. The other would be to take the none sailors off the boat by replacing them with batteries. That would cut the crew down to 4. Helm, wind trim and foil trim + the extra hands needed to tack and gybe.

Either way you have to slow this down a long long long way before you get people sitting on the side not contributing much unless it's to pull some sails up and down at the corners. To challenge that a bit, how much more of a "sailor" is a sail hoister vs a human battery?

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How about a super sized 18ft skiffs. The 18 footers are exciting to watch, if they crash you can get them back up and sailing again. Is it feasible to make them 50ft long with just enough lead in the keel to stop them turning turtle? 10 crew on trapezes at 30 knots bouncing over waves, Is it possible?

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220 pounds (100 kg) X 4 =  lots of battery power for 10 minutes of hydraulic pumping!

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Interesting thread.

I sometimes read that some would have interest in code 0, it is incompatible with a foiling multi, and perhaps too with a good foiling mono.

Perfectly compatible, the boats would have been able to fly in less wind, the sail would be useless in above 10. 

IMO the boats should be soft sailed and have a few set-ups, so they're sail-able in 4 knots of wind, and can be de-tuned to be race-able in 30 knots.

50x45' box rule trimaran with electric winches, but ropes for sails, so the guys are actually seen to be doing the trimming, I'd rather see more trimmers/sailors and no grinders, plus it's cheap. I'd like to see big/small deck sweeping mains and say codes 0-4 up the front. 1 mast though, I'd actually be happy to see that 1D and be almost literally indestructible (force all boats to take the same penalty for rig strength... hell maybe add a water sensor-ed air-bag). 3 sets of dagger-boards, straight centre hull for super light air, light air foiling boards (allow both to be used at once as well) and then heavy air boards. 2 sets of rudders light and heavy. Unsure about board control limitations. I'd imagine a cockpit area more similar to that of the MOD70's, more for safety and keeping it about sailing and not running across a tramp at 40 knots.I'd be happy seeing powered foil control and no limitations on movement (except producing RM) to encourage a lot of manoeuvres/reduce the penalties there. I like the shorter course length, but could see them opening up the width slightly. Downwind finish, happy to keep the similar start and reach. 6 guys (no grinders) so skipper, tactician, main, jib, genoa & a foil trimmer. I'd like to see the boats easily packed into a few 40' containers. 

Got plenty more ideas, most in drawings though.

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I'd like to see kite boats.

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2 hours ago, trilander said:

How about MANUAL powered tougher foiling tris?  50+ footers, soft sails and no design limit?  I was totally frustrated by the tiny courses for boats with such fast legs.  A good 3 mile wide weather leg would have been much more exciting in any multi.  Talk about a lead change on a shift, upwind or down!

totally foiling 50 foot tris would rock, think super sized superfoiler. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Bill R said:

How about a super sized 18ft skiffs. The 18 footers are exciting to watch, if they crash you can get them back up and sailing again. Is it feasible to make them 50ft long with just enough lead in the keel to stop them turning turtle? 10 crew on trapezes at 30 knots bouncing over waves, Is it possible?

Not just possible, but pretty much done in the '80s. Also largely dead now, with only two or three in a recent Centomiglia.

images.jpg

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50ft tri. Really??. The AC in something smaller and slower that other boats out there?? And if you think the AC50 don't match race ....

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2 minutes ago, rgeek said:

50ft tri. Really??. The AC in something smaller and slower that other boats out there?? And if you think the AC50 don't match race ....

why wouldn't a foiling try be equally as fast, but more sea worthy

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There's no reason why AC boats have to be the biggest and fastest things around to stay faithful to the Cup's history.  For most of its life the AC was sailed in boats that were smaller than ocean racers, and no bigger or significantly faster than the normal big British inshore racers. The concept that the AC has historically been sailed in the biggest, fastest and most advanced boats is pure bullshit. Popular bullshit, but still bullshit none the less. 

 

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Considering that ETNZ did all their training, testing and development in Auckland, why can't AC50's race there?

At least they didn't stick it in in Auckland like they did in BDA. The current boat seems fine for the venue.

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The AC is an inshore series, so that's the context.

Very few boats larger than the DoG challenge boats.

The J's came in as cost control so hard to suggest that, but for a handful of notable exceptions, that they where not the largest of their day. That the Solent used to be where the big boats where back in the day doesn't invalidate this.

The 12s where small, but again selected because they where the largest boats out there racing inshore at the time.

IACCs again, big boats.

They're all from an age of displacement sailing, when size dictated speed. If they where (largely) the biggest then they where (largely) the fastest.

Agree on the tech. You're not going to find innovation on the bigger boats. But they are where the lead is.

 

50ft tri, when the Mod 70s are out there??

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2 minutes ago, rgeek said:

The AC is an inshore series, so that's the context.

Very few boats larger than the DoG challenge boats.

The J's came in as cost control so hard to suggest that, but for a handful of notable exceptions, that they where not the largest of their day. That the Solent used to be where the big boats where back in the day doesn't invalidate this.

The 12s where small, but again selected because they where the largest boats out there racing inshore at the time.

IACCs again, big boats.

They're all from an age of displacement sailing, when size dictated speed. If they where (largely) the biggest then they where (largely) the fastest.

Agree on the tech. You're not going to find innovation on the bigger boats. But they are where the lead is.

 

50ft tri, when the Mod 70s are out there??

mods are cool but i am thinking way way more aggressive design.  superfoiler on steroids.  

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Isn't that what we have, only with soft sails to remove a lot of the requirement for stored power?

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40 minutes ago, The Jay said:

There's no reason why AC boats have to be the biggest and fastest things around to stay faithful to the Cup's history.  For most of its life the AC was sailed in boats that were smaller than ocean racers, and no bigger or significantly faster than the normal big British inshore racers. The concept that the AC has historically been sailed in the biggest, fastest and most advanced boats is pure bullshit. Popular bullshit, but still bullshit none the less. 

 

If we took the route taken back in the day it would simply be a matter of signing up to use Maxi72?

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3 hours ago, Geronimo said:

Do not forget that safety is still fresh on the mind after losing Bart during the 2013 cycle. The AC50 rule also came about not only in order to reduce costs but also because the sailors were literally afraid of the 72s before and of course even more after the tragedy.

Having all of the hulls, beams, spine and pod structure one design on the AC50 cut costs but kept the teams from pushing the design envelope too hard and compromising the structural integrity of the boats. 

It's my understanding that ETNZs boat was the only boat built by Southern Spars and the rest of the boats were built by Core. Is this actually the case?

The AC72s were a spectacle, and so were the 50s. Watching the 50s tear up the race course during this cycle made the 72s look like they were lumbering around the course 4 short years ago.

The cup needs stability and it needs to change hands in order to thrive. Especially if it is to become a mainstream sport as RC dreamed of. 

I would not be surprised if LE cleaned house and was back again, but with who? I can't imagine he would just walk away after respectfully losing it.

People who still want to see 12 meters are insane. Yes, I love to watch the old footage, but only because its nostalgic. RC & LE did a lot of good for the cup. I never thought that I would meet random people who do not sail and ask me if I watch the AC. The RBYAC is a breeding ground for the next line of talent. 

Let's pray ETNZ & LR don't revert back to monos. I don't care how many foils you put on it. It's not going to make for good TV. 

Bad news boy. The Cup's in ETNZ's hands now,  and like Jimmy, Russell Cunts dreams are being flushed down the shitter right now. 

RC and his spastic ACEA, "vision" took the cup in a direction that only children and those new to the AC and match racing thought was cool. It was terrible. 

But a spectacle?  Yes. For me, I was only excited by the prospect of us winning and changing things once we'd done so. It was like fucking a fat chic. You're fucking, but its a fat chic.  

But we won. Fuck you. 

RC's vision saw The Cup becoming compromised, weaker, less prestigious and dumbed down for audience numbers. 

BTW.... 

Who said anything about 12m boats? Monohull yachts have moved on now, it's 2017 ATM and it'll be 2021 for the next Cup. I bet you've still got a CRT TV fucktard. 

Eat a bag of dicks. 

 

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1 hour ago, darth reapius said:

Perfectly compatible, the boats would have been able to fly in less wind, the sail would be useless in above 10. 

IMO the boats should be soft sailed and have a few set-ups, so they're sail-able in 4 knots of wind, and can be de-tuned to be race-able in 30 knots.

50x45' box rule trimaran with electric winches, but ropes for sails, so the guys are actually seen to be doing the trimming, I'd rather see more trimmers/sailors and no grinders, plus it's cheap. I'd like to see big/small deck sweeping mains and say codes 0-4 up the front. 1 mast though, I'd actually be happy to see that 1D and be almost literally indestructible (force all boats to take the same penalty for rig strength... hell maybe add a water sensor-ed air-bag). 3 sets of dagger-boards, straight centre hull for super light air, light air foiling boards (allow both to be used at once as well) and then heavy air boards. 2 sets of rudders light and heavy. Unsure about board control limitations. I'd imagine a cockpit area more similar to that of the MOD70's, more for safety and keeping it about sailing and not running across a tramp at 40 knots.I'd be happy seeing powered foil control and no limitations on movement (except producing RM) to encourage a lot of manoeuvres/reduce the penalties there. I like the shorter course length, but could see them opening up the width slightly. Downwind finish, happy to keep the similar start and reach. 6 guys (no grinders) so skipper, tactician, main, jib, genoa & a foil trimmer. I'd like to see the boats easily packed into a few 40' containers. 

Got plenty more ideas, most in drawings though.

 

Mostly reasonable - except as pointed out foiling-MOD70 size

 

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If the issue is a dislike for the significant manual power input requirement which is needed under the current rule set then adjust the rules to require designers to come up with an alternative. This might be a restriction on foil/wing adjustment or similar. Constraints drive innovation. The constraints of the moth class drove inverted T foil development, the constraints of the A-class drove cat foil development. Constrain the class somehow to avoid the large manual power input requirement and watch innovative solutions be developed. I think I would prefer that to the integration of other power sources such as battery or internal combustion. 

What would I like to see? I'm pretty open. Cat foiling has improved dramatically in the last cycle - what if the same development could be applied to a 60 foot monohull? Could we see a mono make it around the course without splashdown? Possibly, given the right foil combination. In some respects the nature of the hulls is really less important than the nature of the foil configuration which will be vastly more important if a class with the possibility of foiling is designed.

 

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

 

jacques_vabre_4350-1024x683.jpg

Hey can I ask you guys a dumb question about these boats with a canterleving keels. Why don't they lift the weight of the keel right out of the water to reduce drag?

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Sometimes they do....

But in reality the rule has stability limits that restricts how far you can can't the keel. 

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7 minutes ago, imnotasailer said:

Hey can I ask you guys a dumb question about these boats with a canterleving keels. Why don't they lift the weight of the keel right out of the water to reduce drag?

That is a logical conclusion but there are a few issues to consider:

1. The extent of canting is limited by the bearing point and internal canting mechanisms

2. There is probably an issue with wave interference with the keel splashing down intermittently - this might be high drag

3. If the keel is at maximum righting moment out to the side, what happens to the boat if it heels further and righting moment goes down - the stability profile would be different

4. Not unsolvable but the further you cant a keel the more you have to reinforce the bearing point as torque is applied to the bearing in different ways. Imagine the different torque forces that the keel can apply in all its different positions!

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Just now, Presuming Ed said:

Sometimes they do.

 

That's awesome! 

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Please lets not ever see the AC45F catamarans ever again, or the ACWS sideshow. Both should be dead and buried.

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Just now, sclarke said:

Please lets not ever see the AC45F catamarans ever again, or the ACWS sideshow. Both should be dead and buried.

I have a nasty feeling the ACWS side show is set to continue.

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1 hour ago, rgeek said:

Isn't that what we have, only with soft sails to remove a lot of the requirement for stored power?

Changing to soft sail, actually changes all the parameters of the design. Forces involved would be a lot bigger, not the same boat, IMHO

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12 minutes ago, sclarke said:

C8KCIMxVoAMsMBK.jpg

That would be really nice

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Flying boats are here to stay. Best platforms will still be catamarans. Wingsails are the obvious choice, soft sails will require massive amount of power and structures to be controlled.

Running the AC36 in a big monohull will be like doing F1 in trucks, just because they're bigger and noisier.....

And we can always hope for another 10-20 billionaires, but some return for sponsors is needed. So somekind of a global series with 3-4 events a year leading up to AC. On the other hand pretty cool that ETNZ were hiding down south, showing up (at least in the final) with a superior boat.

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46 minutes ago, Barnacle Bill said:

Bad news boy. The Cup's in ETNZ's hands now,  and like Jimmy, Russell Cunts dreams are being flushed down the shitter right now. 

RC and his spastic ACEA, "vision" took the cup in a direction that only children and those new to the AC and match racing thought was cool. It was terrible. 

But a spectacle?  Yes. For me, I was only excited by the prospect of us winning and changing things once we'd done so. It was like fucking a fat chic. You're fucking, but its a fat chic.  

But we won. Fuck you. 

RC's vision saw The Cup becoming compromised, weaker, less prestigious and dumbed down for audience numbers. 

BTW.... 

Who said anything about 12m boats? Monohull yachts have moved on now, it's 2017 ATM and it'll be 2021 for the next Cup. I bet you've still got a CRT TV fucktard. 

Eat a bag of dicks. 

 

Ah, that famous Kiwi magnanimity in action. 

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2 minutes ago, lars75k said:

Flying boats are here to stay. Best platforms will still be catamarans. Wingsails are the obvious choice, soft sails will require massive amount of power and structures to be controlled.

Running the AC36 in a big monohull will be like doing F1 in trucks, just because they're bigger and noisier.....

And we can always hope for another 10-20 billionaires, but some return for sponsors is needed. So somekind of a global series with 3-4 events a year leading up to AC. On the other hand pretty cool that ETNZ were hiding down south, showing up (at least in the final) with a superior boat.

Exactly. 

With TO 99.999% likely to chuck in the towel, TNZ have a huge lead in foil technology over every other team. Hardly likely that they'll give that up. 

I thought much of the power from the grinders was being used for foil adjustment? So unless you allow for stored power, you still need grinders.

 

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27 minutes ago, sclarke said:

C8KCIMxVoAMsMBK.jpg

me like!

looks a lot like my boat

except for the foils

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7 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

How did your "they will only use one design of board" work out. If you are going to keep posting in the next cycle, you can use the downtime to better understand foils and racing, because this time you got it badly wrong.

Kinda like you got the cyclors?

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24 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

Ah, that famous Kiwi magnanimity in action. 

It's disgusting. 

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29 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

Exactly. 

With TO 99.999% likely to chuck in the towel, TNZ have a huge lead in foil technology over every other team. Hardly likely that they'll give that up. 

 

WTF? The team closest to ETNZ this time around was Artemis who were way ahead of Oracle. But ETNZ still has a lead over the other teams and if they go monohull, they would be throwing it all away.

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1 hour ago, Barnacle Bill said:

Bad news boy. The Cup's in ETNZ's hands now,  and like Jimmy, Russell Cunts dreams are being flushed down the shitter right now. 

RC and his spastic ACEA, "vision" took the cup in a direction that only children and those new to the AC and match racing thought was cool. It was terrible. 

But a spectacle?  Yes. For me, I was only excited by the prospect of us winning and changing things once we'd done so. It was like fucking a fat chic. You're fucking, but its a fat chic.  

But we won. Fuck you. 

RC's vision saw The Cup becoming compromised, weaker, less prestigious and dumbed down for audience numbers. 

BTW.... 

Who said anything about 12m boats? Monohull yachts have moved on now, it's 2017 ATM and it'll be 2021 for the next Cup. I bet you've still got a CRT TV fucktard. 

Eat a bag of dicks. 

 

Fuck me your a salty old cunt arnt you. 

One foot in the grave and the rest of us wish you would just fuckin trip already and stop fuckin shit up for your dumb arse old timer ways. 

"Grumble grumble, back in my day motherfuckers sailed monohulls and yachting was only enjoyed by societies finest, not the great unwashed... grumble dribble grumble"

What a load of shit. Making the sport more popular only has positives for the yachting community, bringing more people into it and growing the industry here and abroad. 

Your elitist shit stain of an idea of what it should be can only come from the dementia addled brain of a drunk failure with faux impressions of his standing in life. 

Your the weakest excuse for a pro life argument I've ever seen, I bet you smell like piss and mothballs and hang out at your local yacht club drinking alone, and I almost guarantee whatever women you had in your life got tired of your shit and left long ago. 

But let me get to my motivation to type this shit out.. Seriously, and I mean this. Fuck off pretending you speak for the country. Your a gi-fucking-gantic embarrassment. 

I mean really, who the fuck let grandpa online? Smh. 

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56 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Please lets not ever see the AC45F catamarans ever again, or the ACWS sideshow. Both should be dead and buried.

The acws is ok.  The ac45f are dumb.  They were hopeless for the youth cup.   Gc32 would be better

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

C8KCIMxVoAMsMBK.jpg

Pretty much what I was thinking.  Sweet

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1 hour ago, imnotasailer said:

Hey can I ask you guys a dumb question about these boats with a canterleving keels. Why don't they lift the weight of the keel right out of the water to reduce drag?

There are some concept boats that do

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28 minutes ago, Barnacle Bill said:

It's disgusting. 

 

12 minutes ago, Qman said:

The acws is ok.  The ac45f are dumb.  They were hopeless for the youth cup.   Gc32 would be better

+1

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Seriously  because of nautical design advancement, this years AC50 model won't be used in 4 years time. So, on Hauraki Gulf or Waitemata harbour (latter would be disastrous, imo, because of city/bridge broken wind variation) what is the new boat going to look like? After this excellent Bermuda series foiled monohulls would be ridiculous and ponderous (no matter how light in displacement). Do they keep the AC50 catamarans after the intense amount of development and build again from there to suit Gulf conditions? Allow AC50 trimarans? That would be proverbial "cat" among pigeons?

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17 minutes ago, Qman said:

Pretty much what I was thinking.  Sweet

Don't see how it's an improvement for match racing. 

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I don't care what they race so long as they get rid of the boundaries and make the course bigger.
Despite all the talk about needing the boundaries to keep the boats from one-tacking the layline, due to the speed lost in tacks, we still saw that a wind shift could make a big difference when there was separation.

No boundaries = more possible separation = more to lose or gain if the boats split tacks = more tactical calls on whether to tack

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Ok great I've just had or of my classic brain waves.

If we gonna keep this next format with a nationally thingee why no make each team bring a boat for there indigenous back grounds. We could have some kinda Maori waka looking thing. The Ozzies a boat made of corrugated iron made by abbos. The yanks a boat made by tribal indians using yak leather. A viking boat team from iceland. What else?

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26 minutes ago, Qman said:

Pretty much what I was thinking.  Sweet

 

No centerline appendages please: give an MOB a chance!

 

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17 minutes ago, Qman said:

There are some concept boats that do

Stravaganza

stravaganza-800.jpg

Q

D212_Q_AudiWinter2011_2.jpg

Large_NSW%20Maritime%20standing%20by%20c

 

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38 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

Don't see how it's an improvement for match racing. 

yep, even with the current foil tackers, there's not too much classic match racing. What would it take to get more tacking, gybing and pre-start situations? The problem is, when you get more control, you'll probably lose a bit of top speed, so there's always that compromise. And especially in marginal conditions, getting up on foils is so critical.  Also, would be interesting to see what kind of innovation would come out of choosing a race course where there are actual waves.

 

 

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It's not only ETNZ and ARTEMIS way ahead in knowledge with the current boats format, do not forget part of the NZ design comes from LR as well, which abandoned the 35 campaign because of rule changes (boat size) while pretty well advanced with their design.

I reckon they are slightly behind ETNZ even if they did not compete, it is a matter of putting back the team together and they are doing it as we speak

So, to see a complete trash of current boats (technology) would be a surprise, I guess

It is also related to cost and legacy, if there is legacy, you will most likely attract old teams, which, otherwise, will need to start from scratch (and if not backed by big dollars, might decide to drop out)

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The fucktard said.... 

1 hour ago, loryda said:

Fuck me your an awesome cunt arnt you?

One foot up my ass and the rest of us wish you would just fuckin trip already and fuck my shit up forever. 

"Grumble grumble, back in my day motherfuckers sailed monohulls and yachting was only enjoyed by societies finest, not the great unwashed... grumble dribble grumble"

What well informed ideas. Making the sport less popular only has positives for the yacht sport killing community, bringing less people into it and shrinking the industry here and abroad. 

Your elitist awesomeness of an idea of what should only come from the intelligence induced brain of a successful drunk  with modest impressions of his standing in life. 

Your the best excuse for a pro life argument I've ever seen, I bet you smell like jazz and clean linin and hang out at your local yacht club drinking with lots of cool people, and I almost guarantee whatever women you have in your life love  your shit and left long ago to get more for you. 

But let me get to my motivation to type this shit out.. Seriously, and I mean this. Don't stop pretending you speak for the country. Your a gi-fucking-gantic genius.  

I mean really, who the fuck let a 120kg 2 metre tall ex army monster online? Smh. 

14 posts and it looks like you've exhausted your one-line abuse library. 

Listen up. You'll need to read and post some good stuff before you start with the abuse and what not. You've no street cred here yet and you just came off looking like a dork. 

When you have 50 or so posts, then start calling people out with clear and concise arguments. 

Cheers. 

P. S. Cleaned your spelling up a bit. 

 

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51 minutes ago, blackensign said:

I don't care what they race so long as they get rid of the boundaries and make the course bigger.
Despite all the talk about needing the boundaries to keep the boats from one-tacking the layline, due to the speed lost in tacks, we still saw that a wind shift could make a big difference when there was separation.

No boundaries = more possible separation = more to lose or gain if the boats split tacks = more tactical calls on whether to tack

or the boundaries meant the teams would take more risk on separation knowing that leverage was limited, where as they would always cover on a bigger course. the leverage available was enough to create passing opportunities. the only time boats don't cover is if there's a heavy penalty for tacking, and that's grumbled about as banging the corner

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7 hours ago, Enzedel92 said:

AC62 and call it a day, but let the hulls be custom

If an AC 62 cat, what will it matter what the hulls are in 2021? By then they will all foil 100% of the time so the hulls could be any shape dictated by aerodynamics, not hydrodynamics.

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I think the foiling cats have been great. The cup itself wasn't the best example,. but in the round robin we got some truly excellent racing. 

Obviously the best way to get smaller budget teams to compete or existing teams to come back is to make the class rules so teams can start by modding AC50s at least, if not actually race them.

I don't see the point of using soft sails to extend the wind range down lower. Sure, the boat may be able to foil in 4 knots, but at those wind speeds the direction and speed is so unstable it would make racing a farce. Example is ENTZ against Artemis; it wasn't that they were slow or not foiling that made the race a joke, but that it became just totally about luck.  

I'd be against stored power (batteries). I think sailing should be about propelling the boat using wind and water.

I also think they should start races with zero accumulated pressure, so there is a race between grinders to accumulate power to get the first maneuver in. The boats could be tethered to a buoy, and released simultaneously with 3 minutes to go. Its then a race to pump enough pressure to get the boat out of irons and get set up to put a penalty on the other boat. 

I think what could be done is reduce the amount of pressure stored but increase the number of crew (would there be space for an extra crew member on a 50?). Then you would see a more obvious link between 'grinding' in relation to expenditure of pressure. 

I'd like less restriction on foil design. 

I'd like less electronic aids on board available to the sailors. Maybe just race time and distance to nearest boundary in meters. Obviously the data should still be collected for post race analysis and to be put on on TV for our viewing pleasure. 

I'd like to see the world series continue, but I don't think the defender should compete in the challenger series.  

I think they could move racing slightly further offshore. Technology is making remote watching easier and better. 

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41 minutes ago, jonas a said:

Also, would be interesting to see what kind of innovation would come out of choosing a race course where there are actual waves.

 

 

This.

 

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Seems like there is an awful lot of money put into nice super yachts. Was wondering whether the people spending small fortunes on eg their J's are just not interested in the AC regardless of what kind of boat would be chosen for the next cup.  

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1 hour ago, Presuming Ed said:

Stravaganza

stravaganza-800.jpg

Q

D212_Q_AudiWinter2011_2.jpg

Large_NSW%20Maritime%20standing%20by%20c

 

 

You might have added CQS. Remarkably successful boats, I'm pleased to note

 

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6 hours ago, Bill R said:

How about a super sized 18ft skiffs. The 18 footers are exciting to watch, if they crash you can get them back up and sailing again. Is it feasible to make them 50ft long with just enough lead in the keel to stop them turning turtle? 10 crew on trapezes at 30 knots bouncing over waves, Is it possible?

Ultimate 30. Been there done that. Hardly any youtube footage.

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8 hours ago, Geronimo said:

 

Let's pray ETNZ & LR don't revert back to monos. I don't care how many foils you put on it. It's not going to make for good TV. 

what good tv ???   there was no good tv.     there was no racing  unless you consider straight line drag racing to be racing.    it was a very poor spectacle  and got no press coverage in canada whatsoever.    little boring toys better suited to beach regattas  have nothing to offer in the way of majesty.    as said by dalts in the presser,   look at all those J boats......damn,  now they are impressive.     yes that is elitist,  but so are these stupid hydraulic flivvers with bicycles.     bring back big monos that impress.

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A boat like this with no cabin and Verdier foils--and rudder T-foils so it doesn't drag it's ass- is a monohull foiler concept that could work for the AC. Mods to the design would include being able to foil in light air-very possible:

 

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5 hours ago, rgeek said:

If we took the route taken back in the day it would simply be a matter of signing up to use Maxi72?

Could be that, or 'supermaxi' canters.

I can't see it happening soon, though. There would be too much squawking from the sidelines. The sport may have to shrink even more before people stop believing that everyone else is suddenly going to go out and get a bleeding-edge hyperformance boat, or pay to watch them.

 

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Monohull foilers would be the worst of both worlds unless they were just foil-assisted.

Imaging falling off the foils in a monohull. would take so long to get back up the race would be over well and truly.   Tactics would be simply to do as few manoeuvers as possible as each would cost too much.

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

 

jacques_vabre_4350-1024x683.jpg

That works too.  I also am intrigued with an upgraded version of those 18ft skiffs.

2 hours ago, Barnacle Bill said:

The fucktard said.... 

14 posts and it looks like you've exhausted your one-line abuse library. 

Listen up. You'll need to read and post some good stuff before you start with the abuse and what not. You've no street cred here yet and you just came off looking like a dork. 

When you have 50 or so posts, then start calling people out with clear and concise arguments. 

Cheers. 

P. S. Cleaned your spelling up a bit. 

 

I've been around here going on 10 years and I missed the memo on the 50 post threshold to talk shit.  Its always been show your tits and have at it.  

But if there were to be a post count 500+ posts seems right.  You're almost there.

Also, spell checking people is so bad ass.  :rolleyes:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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A question for you Kiwis: my recollection of Auckland harbor is that it's pretty narrow, will we see boundaries as tight as Bermuda if they sail it there rather than the gulf?

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A bigger version of this:

Picture by Alexis Courcoux--

Converted Diam 24 Test Boat:

wko7rt.jpg

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Hey! What does the new foiling tri class M&M have designed for the NYYC look like?

 

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30 minutes ago, ezyb said:

A question for you Kiwis: my recollection of Auckland harbor is that it's pretty narrow, will we see boundaries as tight as Bermuda if they sail it there rather than the gulf?

They had at least one in port race for the VOR a couple cycles ago.  So its doable.

Then again, looking at the VOR replay of that race the harbor is a lot tighter than I remember.  Go to 14:37 for the race course graphics:

It looks to be a lot tighter than BDA,

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, mozzy656 said:

I think the foiling cats have been great. The cup itself wasn't the best example,. but in the round robin we got some truly excellent racing. Agreed

Obviously the best way to get smaller budget teams to compete or existing teams to come back is to make the class rules so teams can start by modding AC50s at least, if not actually race them. Good Point

I don't see the point of using soft sails to extend the wind range down lower. Sure, the boat may be able to foil in 4 knots, but at those wind speeds the direction and speed is so unstable it would make racing a farce. Example is ENTZ against Artemis; it wasn't that they were slow or not foiling that made the race a joke, but that it became just totally about luck.  Correct

I'd be against stored power (batteries). I think sailing should be about propelling the boat using wind and water. 100% agree.  Plus I think a competition which combined the athletic ability of the grinders (jobs for Olympic cyclists only widens the appeal) and the prowess of talented sailors in the after-guard is really great combination. All these old salts who miss seeing a "bowman" or a "mast man" etc etc seem so dated to me. The sailing talent should be helm, trimmer and tactician. 

I also think they should start races with zero accumulated pressure, so there is a race between grinders to accumulate power to get the first maneuver in. The boats could be tethered to a buoy, and released simultaneously with 3 minutes to go. Its then a race to pump enough pressure to get the boat out of irons and get set up to put a penalty on the other boat. Very original. A traditional Le Mans start for yachting with huge athletic demands. I dont think they would ever go for it but it would be a great spectacle.

I think what could be done is reduce the amount of pressure stored but increase the number of crew (would there be space for an extra crew member on a 50?). Then you would see a more obvious link between 'grinding' in relation to expenditure of pressure. Cost control should aim to keep number of crew at current levels. But maybe design will allow only 3 grinders and 3 sailors ....so that the grinders have to be astonishing athletes.

I'd like less restriction on foil design. 

1. I would like to see foil design given max freedom to develop..so partially agree

2. I would like to see less of the result depend on the fortune of foil selection for the day. So rules should allow foils to be changed up to 10 miuntes before the start....but only a choice of 3 foils at most.

I'd like less electronic aids on board available to the sailors. Maybe just race time and distance to nearest boundary in meters. Obviously the data should still be collected for post race analysis and to be put on on TV for our viewing pleasure. 

I'd like to see the world series continue, but I don't think the defender should compete in the challenger series.  + 1 on ACWS BUT pick better locations for racing rather than just population centers. NYC was cool to be at the event (we were there) but the racing itself was crap. Since most of us watch on TV, select locations where the racing is superb first and then a reasonable population/transport hub for live spectators. In the US, the choices should be Miami (Biscayne Bay), Houston (Galveston Bay), LA  (Long Beach...superb reliable breeze)etc.......and frankly either Miami or LA would be great sailing and great vibe locations.

100% disagree about defender. They should be in the first round of the challenger series. It gives us a taster of how competitive the final will be and it introduces a "wild card" element to the early stages of the competition which I liked. Plus, it allows the defender to get some of the competitive advantage  of racing in the round robins which seems fair to me.

I think they could move racing slightly further offshore. Technology is making remote watching easier and better. 

 

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Controlling the number of sailors has no impact on cost. The teams just fill up the places with none sailors (judging by the way the team size of the BAR v Alinghi, and TNZ didn't change between 2007 and 2017)

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3 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

No centerline appendages please: give an MOB a chance!

 

Totally agree  (And at the same  time perhaps we avoid DL postings on firEaRrow)

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56 minutes ago, Rejected said:

what good tv ???   there was no good tv.     there was no racing  unless you consider straight line drag racing to be racing.    it was a very poor spectacle  and got no press coverage in canada whatsoever.    little boring toys better suited to beach regattas  have nothing to offer in the way of majesty.    as said by dalts in the presser,   look at all those J boats......damn,  now they are impressive.     yes that is elitist,  but so are these stupid hydraulic flivvers with bicycles.     bring back big monos that impress.

J Boats are impressive and beautiful to sail in a Rolls Royce/Bentley kind of way. It is also fun to race them once in a while, like it is fun to race the Bentley once in a while. But the enjoyment is for the participants and the racing is for amateur sportsman of independent means (in both J boats and Bentleys) it is not a sport for the professional athlete and it is not a spectator sport.

The AC foiling cats demanded the outstanding skills of professional sailor/athletes and they provided spectacular racing.

 

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10 hours ago, Geronimo said:

It's my understanding that ETNZs boat was the only boat built by Southern Spars and the rest of the boats were built by Core. Is this actually the case?

Cooksons built the AC45T for ETNZ and the beams from the AC45T were used for the AC50 and were re-used by adding to the pair of hulls which were made by Southern Spars.

Cooksons have closed and have left an important gap in NZ's boat building industry. 

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What about BAR? Persico made the molds, but not the hulls. Or was that just the bows?

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I guess it's fun to speculate (pontificate) about what ETNZ could/should do for the next AC boat specs, but it's pretty pointless, isn't it??

- ETNZ will certainly not be considering advice from this forum in their decision-making B)

I'd like to see, instead, a new thread for posting news links (and rumours from 'unnamed sources close to the campaign') over the next few months about ETNZ's movements toward a published document - kinda like the iPhone fanboy forums in the months ahead of release of an anticipated next version - with stolen photos of mock-up models, news from the factory, reports of overheard whispered conversations between principals in shady bars, etc. 

I can hardly wait for the new specs to come out - it'll frame everything about the next AC.

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