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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

The Next Boat-----2020

805 posts in this topic

Any connection between Mark Turner of Volvo Ocean Race being in Bermuda & the future boat of the AC? Might they look to use the multihull component (reduces costs, shows some joined up thinking between 2 of top events in the sport etc),

The VOR teams "will race offshore around the planet in an exciting new 60ft One Design foil-assisted monohull and the addition of a inshore flying multihull will make the Volvo Ocean Race the ultimate test in professional sailing."

The multihull will be"a unique racing platform designed to test and excite world-class sailors. The race is accepting proposals for fully foiling One Design boats between 32 and 50 feet long. Build and design will be part of an accelerated program with boats to be ready for sailing in spring 2019."

 

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13 hours ago, WetHog said:

How about a variation of this for AC36?

nvs1nm.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

LOOKS AWESOME!!! Bring it on in Auckland No cyclors pumping oil, sailors sailing with Monohulls to rival the MultiHulls. Its The Americas Cup and whatever boats ETNZ choose will be impressive Monos or Multis!!!!

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40 minutes ago, TN_Kiwi said:

- ETNZ will certainly not be considering advice from this forum in their decision-making B)

You ae probably right, but in case they do glance through the forum, mozzy656 list is a great start. 

4 hours ago, mozzy656 said:

I think the foiling cats have been great. The cup itself wasn't the best example,. but in the round robin we got some truly excellent racing. And for a real spectacle, start with some fleet racing..

Obviously the best way to get smaller budget teams to compete or existing teams to come back is to make the class rules so teams can start by modding AC50s at least, if not actually race them.

I don't see the point of using soft sails to extend the wind range down lower. Sure, the boat may be able to foil in 4 knots, but at those wind speeds the direction and speed is so unstable it would make racing a farce. Example is ENTZ against Artemis; it wasn't that they were slow or not foiling that made the race a joke, but that it became just totally about luck.  

I'd be against stored power (batteries). I think sailing should be about propelling the boat using wind and water. Agreed

I also think they should start races with zero accumulated pressure, so there is a race between grinders to accumulate power to get the first maneuver in. The boats could be tethered to a buoy, and released simultaneously with 3 minutes to go. Its then a race to pump enough pressure to get the boat out of irons and get set up to put a penalty on the other boat. Agreed. 

I think what could be done is reduce the amount of pressure stored but increase the number of crew (would there be space for an extra crew member on a 50?). Then you would see a more obvious link between 'grinding' in relation to expenditure of pressure. 

I'd like less restriction on foil design. Agreed - surely this could also reduce the power requirement

I'd like less electronic aids on board available to the sailors. Maybe just race time and distance to nearest boundary in meters. Obviously the data should still be collected for post race analysis and to be put on on TV for our viewing pleasure. Absolutely agreed - how many olmypic classes allow nav aids?

I'd like to see the world series continue, but I don't think the defender should compete in the challenger series.  Agreed

I think they could move racing slightly further offshore. Technology is making remote watching easier and better. I can't completely disagree with this, but having watched the 2013 races in SF and the 1983 races off Newport live, I have to say that live adds a dimension that even the best tech can't match; especially when you have the tech available as well.

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11 minutes ago, AustraliaII4Eva said:

LOOKS AWESOME!!! Bring it on in Auckland No cyclors pumping oil, sailors sailing with Monohulls to rival the MultiHulls. Its The Americas Cup and whatever boats ETNZ choose will be impressive Monos or Multis!!!!

but it does have an engine running continuously to pump hydraulic fluid to cant the keel (pumping oil)

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1 minute ago, Firefly-DC said:

but it does have an engine running continuously to pump hydraulic fluid to cant the keel (pumping oil)

exactly

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Just now, Firefly-DC said:

but it does have an engine running continuously to pump hydraulic fluid to cant the keel (pumping oil)

no probs just want more guys actually sailing the boat as opposed to a cyclist who is not even watching the race thats all

 

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1 minute ago, rgeek said:

exactly

and wasn't that one of the many complaints about Dogzilla vs Allenghi?

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Team racing.....3 mono boats each team totaling 99 feet LOA~~~~~the only design criteria 

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3 minutes ago, AustraliaII4Eva said:

no probs just want more guys actually sailing the boat as opposed to a cyclist who is not even watching the race thats all

 

Doing some sail handling, making the tea and siting on the side while 1 guy helms and presses buttons to the foils, 1 guy presses buttons to trim the main, 1 guy presses buttons to trim the head sails + a naviguesser and a skipper. So about 1 more active sailor than an AC50.

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My best guess after what Dalton said at the presser yesterday, and the rumours running around after Luna Rossa became CoR:

  • Grant Dalton wanted to unite the yachting (He mentioned ISAF, now World Sailing). My guess is that this will be central in their choice of design. 
    • On crew; make it easier for pro sailors to compete in different venues. The foiling cats are so far away from any other sailing circuits that there is hard for the sailors to compete in several of the big races.
    • On seaworthiness; As discussed in this thread, there would be a good thing that the new AC-class would't cost a fortune pr hour of sailing, and possible have a second hand value (Like old VO70 design). 
    • On event; He praised the event at Bermuda, and said that they was not against all of it. I think the compact format and the boundary might survive.
    • On hydraulics; "Pumping oil is not sailing". This would hopefully mean that stored energy is gone. I wonder if they can reduce the amount of computer power on board (maybe make On-design computers which gives maximum CPU and RAM available?). This would require more sailing skills rather than computergame-skills. 

Personally I would love the next AC to be raced in monohulls. This is because it would give more depth to the racing, and give the audience time to observe and reflect on what happening on the water. In this AC i feel like everything happens so fast that you miss many of the important situation because they are over before you realise that they changed the game.

I also think that with modern computer power in the design phase, the chances that also a new class will continue to give more lead changes and exciting racing. Because more computer hours can compensate for lack of engineers, more teams can come up with a optimised design (This AC is a good example, where there was 4 new teams which all contributed to close racing).

My (wild) guess is therefor that we will see a design similar to TP52, with a racecourse similar to AC35, length of approx 45min. But ETNZ might want to keep the wingsail which would give them an edge. 

How ISAF (World Sailing) could be more involved, I don't know, but it might be that the rules will be closer to the existing racing rules of sailing. Maybe the boats must comply to an ISAF offshore category? 

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14 hours ago, TN_Kiwi said:

but, we don't care what American tv audiences think - and nor should we. Keen American sailors who follow international sailing (yachting) will know this language diff and will not think twice about it.

Comments like that will not help grow the sport.
If you Kiwi's do not care about the American audience, how can you expect any of the 300+ million here to care about you? Remember, your little country has a population about the same as the greater Los Angeles area. Kind makes you pretty insignificant in the big picture. Please try to be a bit more humble.

 

13 hours ago, EdVB said:

How about all electronics allowed except the following conditions.

No hydro allowed.

No electric winches or systems allowed.

No systems except mechanical to be used  for any crew member duties.

That way we move forward on technology but limit  to what the crew's ability on the boat will do on the overall race.

Just a thought. 

Maybe we should go back to wooden boats and stone ballast too? :)

 

4 hours ago, Rejected said:

what good tv ???   there was no good tv.     there was no racing  unless you consider straight line drag racing to be racing.    it was a very poor spectacle  and got no press coverage in canada whatsoever.    little boring toys better suited to beach regattas  have nothing to offer in the way of majesty.    as said by dalts in the presser,   look at all those J boats......damn,  now they are impressive.     yes that is elitist,  but so are these stupid hydraulic flivvers with bicycles.     bring back big monos that impress.

The Tech was great but you are right.

The most boring anti-climatic sailing I have ever seen. The piece Michael Douglas produced about Ted Turner and Courageous was better than the AC. Some of that history was pretty cool.

Boring starts, no Tactics, Boring commentators because there was very little excitement. I loved the way the main commentator would start raising his voice like there was supposed to be a climax and then.................................................................I'm still waiting for the climax.

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4 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

A boat like this with no cabin and Verdier foils--and rudder T-foils so it doesn't drag it's ass- is a monohull foiler concept that could work for the AC. Mods to the design would include being able to foil in light air-very possible:

 

why do you care if it foils in the light? This is an AC in Auckland we're talking about, not some damn RC boat in a pond. Shit.

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6 hours ago, Last Post said:

If an AC 62 cat, what will it matter what the hulls are in 2021? By then they will all foil 100% of the time so the hulls could be any shape dictated by aerodynamics, not hydrodynamics.

Exactly, spice it up a bit.  Plenty of life left in the muilti hull foiling with one caveat.  Put them in the ocean!!!!  Gasp!!!  Make them seaworthy!  Gasp!!!

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Um...

World Match Racing Tour - light weight single sail cats

ESS/GC32 - foiling catermarans

Volvo Ocean Race - foiling monohulls offshore, foiling multihulls inshore

Vendee Globe/Open 60 RTW races - Foiling monohulls

Figaro - Foiling monohulls

...

The grind...

Maxi72/TP52/Pac52/Mini maxi 65 etc. will all take an AC sailor off an AC50 in a heart beat.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

why do you care if it foils in the light? This is an AC in Auckland we're talking about, not some damn RC boat in a pond. Shit.

Shit for brains.......

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1 hour ago, schooner27 said:

Any connection between Mark Turner of Volvo Ocean Race being in Bermuda & the future boat of the AC? Might they look to use the multihull component (reduces costs, shows some joined up thinking between 2 of top events in the sport etc),

The VOR teams "will race offshore around the planet in an exciting new 60ft One Design foil-assisted monohull and the addition of a inshore flying multihull will make the Volvo Ocean Race the ultimate test in professional sailing."

The multihull will be"a unique racing platform designed to test and excite world-class sailors. The race is accepting proposals for fully foiling One Design boats between 32 and 50 feet long. Build and design will be part of an accelerated program with boats to be ready for sailing in spring 2019."

 

I could quite easily see ETNZ and the VOR partnering up, at least for the annual circus that keeps interest up in the off years.  

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20 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

your little country has a population about the same as the greater Los Angeles area.

Greater Los Angeles Area Pop: 18.68 Million (2015)

New Zealand Pop: 4.6 Million (2016) 

Kinda puts this whole thing in perspective

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15 hours ago, WetHog said:

How about a variation of this for AC36?

nvs1nm.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

How fast can you put that technology into tack after tack, and consequently will that lead to close racing, or generally just banging the corners? To avoid failure the new design has to create as close or closer racing of the last design.

I really don't know what the new boat should be, but quality-wise 70% of the racing from the 35th cup was due the immediacy of (closing) speed, not even non-foiling cats can provide that.

 

 

 

 

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It's about time we see Royal Perth Yacht Club put their fingers back into the pie, and get the cup back to freo..... if the helmsman and crew need to be nationals.... all we need for an aus team is a boat made in china and we are good :)

 

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10 hours ago, rgeek said:

The AC is an inshore series, so that's the context.

Very few boats larger than the DoG challenge boats.

The J's came in as cost control so hard to suggest that, but for a handful of notable exceptions, that they where not the largest of their day. That the Solent used to be where the big boats where back in the day doesn't invalidate this.

The 12s where small, but again selected because they where the largest boats out there racing inshore at the time.

IACCs again, big boats.

They're all from an age of displacement sailing, when size dictated speed. If they where (largely) the biggest then they where (largely) the fastest.

Agree on the tech. You're not going to find innovation on the bigger boats. But they are where the lead is.

 

50ft tri, when the Mod 70s are out there??

The 12's were chosen because most of the J boats were scrapped or rotting up a river somewhere. The was no big money post-war that would fund a new J so they went to the NYSC to get the waterline reduced to 44' so the 12m class boat could be used. There were a number of them around and to build new and campaign was not too expensive. The 1939 S&S Vim was used as a baseline on the NYYC side as it was the newest 12 they had in the late 50's.

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1 hour ago, Meat Wad said:

Doug Lord: "Lot of use of the word "yachting" by TNZ management in the press conference. I think Dalton said something to the effect: 'we have to preserve the yachting aspect-I don't know if pushing oil around does that'. Also-'I'm not sure these boats would survive in the conditions we have down there'. These are not direct quotes but paraphrases as I remember them. And then you add in Luna Rosa  it begins to seem like a mono "yacht" may be the next boat-sailing for the masses to yachting for the yachties? Seems pretty scary for the future Cup to me......... Maybe we'll know more in a couple of weeks?

Congratulations to Team New Zealand!"

 

15 hours ago,  TN_Kiwi said: 

but, we don't care what American tv audiences think - and nor should we. Keen American sailors who follow international sailing (yachting) will know this language diff and will not think twice about it.

 

Meat Wad said:

Comments like that will not help grow the sport.
If you Kiwi's do not care about the American audience, how can you expect any of the 300+ million here to care about you? Remember, your little country has a population about the same as the greater Los Angeles area. Kind makes you pretty insignificant in the big picture. Please try to be a bit more humble.

 

My point in repyling to Doug was that it's pretty arrogant for Americans to think that people from other countries, who have their own long-established use of language for certain things, ought to change and adopt what sensitive American ears understand better. This is part of the whole American Exceptionalism culture. I have lived in the US for the last 30 years - I hear this myopic ignorance of other cultures all the time. I put up with it because I'm IN the US and choosing to live and work here, but for American 'sailors' and the 'sailing audience' to think Kiwis, Aussies, Brit's, etc, should change over and start referring to the sport as 'sailing' and the participants as 'sailors' (when they've grown up saying 'yachting' and 'yachtsmen/women') when talking to the (international) media at an international event that's not even being held on US territory is pretty rich.  Do you understand this at all?

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How about, having less rules, rather than more rules.

 

1 hull, max length, that's it...... electric / mechanical /  nuclear / whatever you can come up with, you can use.....

 

Then you might see some more innovations enter mainstream from guys thinking outside the box.

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3 minutes ago, TN_Kiwi said:

My point in repyling to Doug was that it's pretty arrogant for Americans to think that people from other countries, who have their own long-established use of language for certain things, ought to change and adopt what sensitive American ears understand better. This is part of the whole American Exceptionalism culture. I have lived in the US for the last 30 years - I hear this myopic ignorance of other cultures all the time. I put up with it because I'm IN the US and choosing to live and work here, but for American 'sailors' and the 'sailing audience' to think Kiwis, Aussies, Brit's, etc, should change over and start referring to the sport as 'sailing' and the participants as 'sailors' (when they've grown up saying 'yachting' and 'yachtsmen/women') when talking to the (international) media at an international event that's not even being held on US territory is pretty rich.  Do you understand this at all?

Gawd....

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6 hours ago, mozzy656 said:

I think what could be done is reduce the amount of pressure stored but increase the number of crew (would there be space for an extra crew member on a 50?). Then you would see a more obvious link between 'grinding' in relation to expenditure of pressure. 

ETNZ only used 4 pedalers, they could have used all 6 within the rules as far as I know. There would be no problems if Ashby and Burling would have pedals as well during AC35.

There would be room for 6 in each hull, 12 total, all of them pedaling, if that would be what they wanted. Could leave the tramp between the hulls out, not needed as no-one would be changing sides during racing, in fact that could be included as part of the rules, crossing forbidden, and thus nobody going swimming during race! Theoretically they would have 3 times the power available from pedaling, or a little less in practise, as not all sailors are as good pedalers as the cyclors are.

 

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1 minute ago, dachopper said:

How about, having less rules, rather than more rules.

 

1 hull, max length, that's it...... electric / mechanical /  nuclear / whatever you can come up with, you can use.....

 

Then you might see some more innovations enter mainstream from guys thinking outside the box.

I absolutely agree that's the route to innovation, but can get pretty expensive in big boats. As an almost certainly dead reference point: if they were to stay with a boat based on AC50's, the development effort for existing teams to match ETNZ's current level would be a lot less than if they had been beaten by a completely different design concept. Except that they were!

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6 hours ago, Xlot said:

You might have added CQS. Remarkably successful boats, I'm pleased to note.

Do they all use engine power to cant their keel?

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This just in..... all challenging boats must be built by hand from Kauri harvested in the challengers country of origin

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9 minutes ago, dachopper said:

That looks like, 95% aircraft, trying to fly it with a fin in the water....

 

Stick a windward control foil in there, and you might be able to control ride height.

 

quite a few videos out there already . Not seen it tacking yet though

 

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5 hours ago, WetHog said:

That works too.  I also am intrigued with an upgraded version of those 18ft skiffs.

jacques_vabre_4350-1024x683.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

As it is, that works for downwind and reaching, but not upwind, making it totally unsuitable for AC. Of course you could add some appendages to make it work, let's hope Volvo is doing exactly that.

If you have to have an engine running in the AC, at least use it for foil adjustment rather than canting ballast keel.

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I would say either go old school mono without foils, or continue on the 100% foiling multi path. Although I like the current boats, they need to be  a little bit easier to handle to get better matchracing. 

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21 minutes ago, jonas a said:

I would say either go old school mono without foils, or continue on the 100% foiling multi path. Although I like the current boats, they need to be  a little bit easier to handle to get better matchracing. 

I still think the teams are on the very steep part of the learning curve with the AC-50's. Give them some more time in the boats and the racing will get much tighter. The guys are still learning how to harness the big stuff, with more time comes refinement and closer racing. 

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16 minutes ago, StumbleNola said:

I still think the teams are on the very steep part of the learning curve 

Hi Pete!  Great to see you on SA.  Congrats on the win :D

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6 hours ago, WetHog said:

That works too.  I also am intrigued with an upgraded version of those 18ft skiffs.

I've been around here going on 10 years and I missed the memo on the 50 post threshold to talk shit.  Its always been show your tits and have at it.  

But if there were to be a post count 500+ posts seems right.  You're almost there.

Also, spell checking people is so bad ass.  :rolleyes:

WetHog  :ph34r:

Didn't think you'd fall for it Sir. 

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9 hours ago, Barnacle Bill said:

The fucktard said.... 

14 posts and it looks like you've exhausted your one-line abuse library. 

Listen up. You'll need to read and post some good stuff before you start with the abuse and what not. You've no street cred here yet and you just came off looking like a dork. 

When you have 50 or so posts, then start calling people out with clear and concise arguments. 

Cheers. 

P. S. Cleaned your spelling up a bit. 

 

You got one thing right in that post Billy bitch, you certainly are a fucktard.. :lol:

I've read enough here to get a good handle on the witless wank-on you constantly bleat about, Parkinson fingers trembling feverishly over your bloody cum stained keyboard (a result of years of getting fucked in the arse and drinking piss water beer; fuckin your kidneys up no doubt) as you hopelessly try and bang out a comeback with some vestige of the wit you once may (or may not have) had.  Sadly its apparent to all around that your best days are far far behind you at this point.

If your only retort is my minimal post history, by cricky you shrunken cock cobber - how fuckin pathetic is your argument?!  I feel like ive picked on the retarded kid with 3 toes..

Cheers though.

P.S - Your mum should have pushed her drunken brother off her before you were conceived, but shes a slut and loved every minute.

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1 minute ago, ~Stingray~ said:

BA's opinion

New Zealand must keep multihulls as they lead America's Cup into new era

I'm certain they will, but the boats will be a bit more robust in a seaway and strong breeze, and they'll require more direct human powered foil and sail control. I'm pretty sure they'll abandon oil pumping altogether - that was a pretty hard sell by the tv commentators to the non-sailing audience

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Monos don't foil upwind.  They really don't much foil downwind if you're doing windward /leewards.  On heavy air broad reaches with large sails they foil....

I've heard a TON of bitching about how much money the America's Cup organizers spend.  About how expensive the boats are.  About how that limits competition.

So - you've already got Bermuda set up.  By all accounts, it was a good venue.  It's also pretty much neutral ground.  Keep it.  Stay there.  Don't re-engineer the whole cup.  That's just a ton more money down the drain.  It's pretty funny that some of the same people I've seen bitching about this stuff are already jumping around saying 'let's build it here, let's use huge boats... blah blah blah".  Keep the boats reasonably sized.  Say 40-45 feet.  Foiling multihulls.  With no hydraulics.  Human power only.  Or monohulls - same length and no hydraulics.  No powered anything, aside from instruments.

Keep the prices down, make it accessible.  Keep the boats reasonably sized.  This will allow MANY countries / teams to enter and afford it.  That in turns brings in more money to the Organizers.  With the facilities already in place, you save a ton.

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10 minutes ago, TN_Kiwi said:

I'm certain they will, but the boats will be a bit more robust in a seaway and strong breeze, and they'll require more direct human powered foil and sail control. I'm pretty sure they'll abandon oil pumping altogether - that was a pretty hard sell by the tv commentators to the non-sailing audience

Although I assume that "direct human powered" foil and wing control is what they would like to have, I wonder how you design the systems to achieve that without losing a lot of performance. Personally I don't care about top speeds, but without those foiling tacks, it won't work

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If rather than a solid, one-piece foil, a foil with a flap was used, how much lower would the power requirement be?

Would love to see an actual split between power requirements of the wing and foil.

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47 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

If rather than a solid, one-piece foil, a foil with a flap was used, how much lower would the power requirement be?

Would love to see an actual split between power requirements of the wing and foil.

 

Good points, both. In fact, why not use wands?

In terms of power requirements for (soft) sail handling, it would be useful to look back at ORMAs crews in the coastal race configuration

 

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10 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

A boat like this with no cabin and Verdier foils--and rudder T-foils so it doesn't drag it's ass- is a monohull foiler concept that could work for the AC. Mods to the design would include being able to foil in light air-very possible:

 

Something like this with a wingsail could be cool. Gotta keep the wingsail! Not old cloth sails! GD said the AC needs to push the envelope with technology so I thinks wings are in for good. Must keep the speeds up too after all this foiling.

 

"It is unlikely the boat will be used for anything more than exhibition sails, however, with Team NZ expected to move to a different class of boat for the next event. The Kiwi syndicate is currently in discussions with Luna Rossa, the official challenger of record for the 36th America's Cup match, over what shape the next event will take. It is rumoured the Italian team are determined to see the Cup return to monohulls."

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7 hours ago, loryda said:

You got one thing right in that post Billy bitch, you certainly are a fucktard.. :lol:

I've read enough here to get a good handle on the witless wank-on you constantly bleat about, Parkinson fingers trembling feverishly over your bloody cum stained keyboard (a result of years of getting fucked in the arse and drinking piss water beer; fuckin your kidneys up no doubt) as you hopelessly try and bang out a comeback with some vestige of the wit you once may (or may not have) had.  Sadly its apparent to all around that your best days are far far behind you at this point.

If your only retort is my minimal post history, by cricky you shrunken cock cobber - how fuckin pathetic is your argument?!  I feel like ive picked on the retarded kid with 3 toes..

Cheers though.

P.S - Your mum should have pushed her drunken brother off her before you were conceived, but shes a slut and loved every minute.

CEO? 

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21 hours ago, darth reapius said:

Perfectly compatible, the boats would have been able to fly in less wind, the sail would be useless in above 10. 

IMO the boats should be soft sailed and have a few set-ups, so they're sail-able in 4 knots of wind, and can be de-tuned to be race-able in 30 knots.

50x45' box rule trimaran with electric winches, but ropes for sails, so the guys are actually seen to be doing the trimming, I'd rather see more trimmers/sailors and no grinders, plus it's cheap. I'd like to see big/small deck sweeping mains and say codes 0-4 up the front. 1 mast though, I'd actually be happy to see that 1D and be almost literally indestructible (force all boats to take the same penalty for rig strength... hell maybe add a water sensor-ed air-bag). 3 sets of dagger-boards, straight centre hull for super light air, light air foiling boards (allow both to be used at once as well) and then heavy air boards. 2 sets of rudders light and heavy. Unsure about board control limitations. I'd imagine a cockpit area more similar to that of the MOD70's, more for safety and keeping it about sailing and not running across a tramp at 40 knots.I'd be happy seeing powered foil control and no limitations on movement (except producing RM) to encourage a lot of manoeuvres/reduce the penalties there. I like the shorter course length, but could see them opening up the width slightly. Downwind finish, happy to keep the similar start and reach. 6 guys (no grinders) so skipper, tactician, main, jib, genoa & a foil trimmer. I'd like to see the boats easily packed into a few 40' containers. 

Got plenty more ideas, most in drawings though.

All very good ideas. However I still struggle to understand how a code 0 can be helpful when a boat foils at X3 or X4 the wind speed, it just adds more drag. Fastest sail boats, ice boats, don't have code 0 or even jibs.

I guess code 0 can only help between 4 to 6 kts.

That said, I wish to see a seaworthy boat sailing between 4 to 35 kts, or more.

The most stupid part of the rule are:

-  the obligation to move the whole foil to control it, nonsense, as if plane pilots had to move the whole wing, what a waste of energy

- the obligation to move the whole rudder rake to control it, another nonsense coming from the AC34 rule when boats where not supposed to fly

- the limitations to the rudder ajustment.

Very smart points live with very dumb ones.

 

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The most stupid part of the rule are:

-  the obligation to move the whole foil to control it, nonsense, as if plane pilots had to move the whole wing, what a waste of energy

- the obligation to move the whole rudder rake to control it, another nonsense coming from the AC34 rule when boats where not supposed to fly

- the limitations to the rudder ajustment.

^This. 

Control foil AOA and ride height by putting elevators on the rudders or the foils themselves, whichever is better. Most if not all of the need for massive hydraulic systems goes away. 

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19 minutes ago, MisterMoon said:

^This. 

Control foil AOA and ride height by putting elevators on the rudders or the foils themselves, whichever is better. Most if not all of the need for massive hydraulic systems goes away. 

Absolutely, I have been repeating that during the last 2 years now.

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Listening to Dolts, his main concerns with the current AC35 are:

  • Not robust enough for Hauraki Gulf
  • Pumping oil is not yacht racing

So bigger boat with a bigger oil pressure vessels with capacity to last most of the race.  If you burn too much oil you will run out of pressure and so foil & sail adjustment become less do able, no cyclers or other pump monkeys during the race.  So the results would be yacht racing with the need to conserve energy until the end.

Competitors can decide on automated height control as used by Glen & use more oil or manual - less stable but can use less oil

What do you think??

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1 minute ago, whgg666 said:

Listening to Dolts, his main concerns with the current AC35 are:

  • Not robust enough for Hauraki Gulf
  • Pumping oil is not yacht racing

So bigger boat with a bigger oil pressure vessels with capacity to last most of the race.  If you burn too much oil you will run out of pressure and so foil & sail adjustment become less do able, no cyclers or other pump monkeys during the race.  So the results would be yacht racing with the need to conserve energy until the end.

Competitors can decide on automated height control as used by Glen & use more oil or manual - less stable but can use less oil

What do you think??

be a bit dumb to have winning yachts run out of pressure. that would be just silly.  like a motorcar race with a petrol limit.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Qman said:

be a bit dumb to have winning yachts run out of pressure. that would be just silly.  like a motorcar race with a petrol limit.  

 

That's been done. Formula 1 in the 80's banned refueling, you started the race will all the fuel you were going to have. It worked out OK, I guess, but it put a limit on how long drivers could go hard in a race and probably reduced overall competitiveness. It was a long time ago, so the details a bit fuzzy for me. I would not want to see the boats have a limit on the number of tacks and gybes and mode changes they could make during a race by having limited hydraulics. 

As Tornado-cat suggested above, the best way to get rid of most if not all hydraulics is to get rid of the stupid rule that requires the entire foil move for trim adjustments. Put elevators on the horizontal elements of the rudders and you'd have a much less power-hungry option. Didn't early foiling Moths have such a system before it got banned for the arbitrary reason that rudders could move only in one plane? 

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12 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Greater Los Angeles Area Pop: 18.68 Million (2015)

New Zealand Pop: 4.6 Million (2016) 

Kinda puts this whole thing in perspective

Louisiana = NZ population

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to be honest i am a little concerned that monohulls would be a major step backwards.  

Tris or cats please.  monos just don't have the weight advantage or the righting moment to be exciting.  short of skiff sailing.  

We don't need to go full on sea worthy, they should still be light and fast. and a little fragile.  

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59 minutes ago, MisterMoon said:

That's been done. Formula 1 in the 80's banned refueling, you started the race will all the fuel you were going to have. 

There's no fuelling in F1 now (hasn't been since 2010). Safety issue as much as anything else.

However, it does cause the occasional race to be a test of "who is the most conservative", rather than "who is the fastest".

 

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20 hours ago, blackensign said:

I don't care what they race so long as they get rid of the boundaries and make the course bigger.
Despite all the talk about needing the boundaries to keep the boats from one-tacking the layline, due to the speed lost in tacks, we still saw that a wind shift could make a big difference when there was separation.

No boundaries = more possible separation = more to lose or gain if the boats split tacks = more tactical calls on whether to tack

It depends on what you think is more important, boat handling during tacks and jibes or calling lay lines and wind shifts. 

No, wait, it depends on what GD and ETNZ think is more important...

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4 minutes ago, bwwooster said:

It depends on what you think is more important, boat handling during tacks and jibes or calling lay lines and wind shifts. 

No, wait, it depends on what GD and ETNZ think is more important...

a little wider please. but not endless

 

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7 minutes ago, bwwooster said:

It depends on what you think is more important, boat handling during tacks and jibes or calling lay lines and wind shifts. 

No, wait, it depends on what GD and ETNZ think is more important...

From the boats comes the boat handling. It's a feature not and end in its self.

Plenty of pressure and shift calling in this cup, even in the walkover. 

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17 hours ago, ezyb said:

A question for you Kiwis: my recollection of Auckland harbor is that it's pretty narrow, will we see boundaries as tight as Bermuda if they sail it there rather than the gulf?

No boundaries, ezyb. Just bounce off the container wharf sea walls.

You maybe need to expand your thinking beyond 50' multihull-foilers. I think ETNZ may well have something else in mind.

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the harbour would be interesting, but you would be often fighting for tide relief, unless they set the boundaries in the channel

 

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Central Waitemata harbour can be a shit of a place for wind shifts and holes, also there is substantial tide plus daily a lot of maritime traffic as well. How is that going to work out over many days regatta? Obviously the course will have to be shifted either to off the east coast bays or down past eastern suburbs ... and there are reefs opposite there too.

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Gulf Harbour, Whangaparoa may yet be the venue. Plenty of suitable water between Rangitoto and Tiritiri Matangi Islands.

Stadium racing may not suit the new plan at all. Time for a shift in thinking I reckon.

We've already seen ETNZ is up with the play on the latest drone technologies. This could well be a video extravaganza, hopefully free-to-air.

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Posted (edited)

 

17 hours ago, TN_Kiwi said:

but it's pretty pointless, isn't it??

 

Life in generel is pointless! so better go "sail" a flying boat and have fun.

 

And flying boats or not!

some of the largest dinghy classes (international classes) are flying these days

Moth - way more than 200 registered for the worlds on lake garda end july

A-cat - more than 125 registered for the worlds in Poland end august, hopefully more to come

Flying boats are being pumped into the market (Waszp, UFO, S9 etc.)

So us sailors embraces flying as well, at big scale.

 

It will be a little odd if AC via ETNZ go back to floating boats, but you never know with these funny newsheeplenders..

Edited by lars75k

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I don't see a foiling mono as an option.  What would be the point?  

If the game is to be foiling then tweak the AC50 rule to make tacking and gybing less costly and promote closer racing.  Sacrificing a little top speed for this would be worthwhile in my opinion.  And do away with the grinding just for oil pressure.  I invited some non sailors over to watch some of the racing, and when I explained what those guys were doing, they looked at me like I was insane.  

If you want a mono and sail changes etc, then something that looks like a scaled up TP52 should deliver decent racing, not be excessively expensive and potentially encourage new challengers.  The issue will potentially be that these new challengers are more likely to be Billionaire backed teams rather than corporate backed teams.    

But a foiling, or foil assisted mono....?  What would be the point in that?  You won't be going as fast as the cats, and the racing won't be a close as a conventional mono, and tacking and gybing will hurt even more than the cats.  

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2 hours ago, Qman said:

to be honest i am a little concerned that monohulls would be a major step backwards.  

Tris or cats please.  monos just don't have the weight advantage or the righting moment to be exciting.  short of skiff sailing.  

We don't need to go full on sea worthy, they should still be light and fast. and a little fragile.  

+1

 

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1 hour ago, flaming2 said:

I don't see a foiling mono as an option.  What would be the point?  

If the game is to be foiling then tweak the AC50 rule to make tacking and gybing less costly and promote closer racing.  Sacrificing a little top speed for this would be worthwhile in my opinion.  And do away with the grinding just for oil pressure.  I invited some non sailors over to watch some of the racing, and when I explained what those guys were doing, they looked at me like I was insane.  

If you want a mono and sail changes etc, then something that looks like a scaled up TP52 should deliver decent racing, not be excessively expensive and potentially encourage new challengers.  The issue will potentially be that these new challengers are more likely to be Billionaire backed teams rather than corporate backed teams.    

But a foiling, or foil assisted mono....?  What would be the point in that?  You won't be going as fast as the cats, and the racing won't be a close as a conventional mono, and tacking and gybing will hurt even more than the cats.  

Good points, Semi foiling monos are great for offshore, but having some dali foils sticking out from the side of the boat is neither very practical for match racing, nor very useful on a sausage course  

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1 hour ago, lars75k said:

some of the largest dinghy classes (international classes) are flying these days

 

 

Completely and utterly wrong.

The most popular foiling dinghy reports that the biggest countries have 110 and 85 boats respectively - a fraction of the size of their biggest fleets. The third biggest national fleet had just 50 active boats, putting it behind at least five other singlehanders.

The fourth biggest nation (either Japan or Switzerland) had about 35 active boats and sailors - there's about that many Int 12s active in Japan and it's over 100 years old! Significant sailing countries like the Netherlands, Argentina and Denmark had a mere 2 to 12 boats, and North America had about only 20 or something racing. Hell, the Force 5 class is probably bigger in the USA.

There is no foiler that is "one of the largest classes", despite the incredible quality of the boats and fleets and the enormous promotion they have got. That's significant when we look at where the sport's premier event should be going.

Have a great time on your boat but please stop trying to hype up stuff that isn't happening.

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True Jay but not a lot of classes get to 200+ for a Worlds 

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18 hours ago, AustraliaII4Eva said:

no probs just want more guys actually sailing the boat as opposed to a cyclist who is not even watching the race thats all

 

Wind and water is what it´s should be about. Not engines! But I´ll agree that watching four guys sniffing each others arses is not either what it´s all about. More room for tactics and manouvers IMAO.  

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1 hour ago, The Jay said:

 

Completely and utterly wrong.

The most popular foiling dinghy reports that the biggest countries have 110 and 85 boats respectively - a fraction of the size of their biggest fleets. The third biggest national fleet had just 50 active boats, putting it behind at least five other singlehanders.

The fourth biggest nation (either Japan or Switzerland) had about 35 active boats and sailors - there's about that many Int 12s active in Japan and it's over 100 years old! Significant sailing countries like the Netherlands, Argentina and Denmark had a mere 2 to 12 boats, and North America had about only 20 or something racing. Hell, the Force 5 class is probably bigger in the USA.

There is no foiler that is "one of the largest classes", despite the incredible quality of the boats and fleets and the enormous promotion they have got. That's significant when we look at where the sport's premier event should be going.

Have a great time on your boat but please stop trying to hype up stuff that isn't happening.

hmmm, i've heard of pretty big worlds for 505, contender, f18, finns, but for any class more than 125 (or even better +200) on the line is a huge turnout.

Some classes might have large fleets locally, but entrylist at the worlds shows the depth of any class. And in that respect the flying boats do rather well.

Best Lars (and only 25 registered a-cats in Denmark, not all do regular racing).

 

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There is a question as to whether boats have to qualify for a worlds or not. E.g., 505 is open entry, but AFAIAA you can't just turn up at the Laser worlds.

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1 hour ago, lars75k said:

hmmm, i've heard of pretty big worlds for 505, contender, f18, finns, but for any class more than 125 (or even better +200) on the line is a huge turnout.

Some classes might have large fleets locally, but entrylist at the worlds shows the depth of any class. And in that respect the flying boats do rather well.

Best Lars (and only 25 registered a-cats in Denmark, not all do regular racing).

 

Lars, the entry list at the worlds does not "show the depth of a class" when the reality is that world attendance varies according to a lot of factors, and some classes with good world title fleets have far fewer boats being sailed in the world than others with smaller worlds fleets. A class that has only about 400 active boats in the whole world according to its own reports (like the most popular foiling dinghy) is not a very big class. It's a very portable class that gets a lot of travellers and that's great, but it's not big. 

For some classes 125 boats at a worlds is a tiny turnout. The Finns got about 450 last year at their two worlds (Open and Masters).  Techno 293s got 430+ and people want to chuck windsurfing out of the Olympics!  The Lasers have to restrict fleets and they still get hundreds.

Lots of medium size classes get 100+. Europes got 144 in Garda recently.  Contenders got 134 last time they were in Europe. Niche classes like the GP14s and Wayfarers get 100+.  Tasars got 123 in a tiny town near the world's most remote city. If the number of people at a worlds shows a class' strength then the A Class is no bigger than the Vaurien, for heaven's sake!

 

 

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9 hours ago, MisterMoon said:

That's been done. Formula 1 in the 80's banned refueling, you started the race will all the fuel you were going to have. It worked out OK, I guess, but it put a limit on how long drivers could go hard in a race and probably reduced overall competitiveness.

8 hours ago, KoW said:

There's no fuelling in F1 now (hasn't been since 2010). Safety issue as much as anything else.

However, it does cause the occasional race to be a test of "who is the most conservative", rather than "who is the fastest".

 

 

I think with F1 it's different as it creates an interesting strategy situation. More fuel, more aggressive driving (faster), but more weight (slower). Then behind that you have the engineering skill in designing efficient cars and driving skills in preserving fuel. 

I think most, if not all circuits you can easily get round on a tank, the only reason you wouldn't is if you under fill yourself to save weight. As a concept it's relatable to almost everyone watching who's ever crawled along the motorway at 2000 revs and 50 mph hoping to find the next service station. 

With hydro pressure or batteries in a boat it would be pretty one dimensional. The weight penalty of more stored energy wouldn't be the same as F1, so teams would just store plenty. So you'd have to limit it with class rules. And doing that months or years before the regatta and getting the energy levels right so they pose an interesting strategy decision would be next to impossible. They'd either set it too low and boats wouldn't get round the course, or too high so it no longer was a consideration at all. 

But on top of all that, stored power for boats just isn't relatable. When was the last time in any sailing event that you had to stop tacking because you ran out of juice? If fellow sailors can't identify with racing situations and strategy how should mere bystanders? It just feels artificial and I lose interest. 

My take is input has to be human driven. There is something so great about sailing being just the wind and your own strength to set the sails. I can remember when I learnt to sail it just seemed magical, and even today when I explain that it's possible to move a boat in to the wind, powered by the wind they think it's some sort of trick. It seems a shame to remove this one identifiable trait of our sport by using 'stored power'. 

And removing the stored power reserves as much as possible make it more visually appealing too. You then wouldn't need a graphic telling you how much hydro each team had, you'd be able to see as they'd be grinding like crazy.   Many of us will have got lazy with the trimming on the final beat as our forearms are burning up from the strain or our quads are screaming from hiking. That's sailing, and that's what I'd like to see in the AC.  (You'd probably still need to run a hydro system though with a small reservoir just to make the systems use able). 

Elsewhere, as I'd said in my previous post I'd like to move away from electronics and feedback systems as much as possible. I want sailors to be judging lay lines, start lines, shifts, gusts, crosses and modes by their own eye. This would create more room for human error and excellence (great to watch) and opens up more passing. They can still record the data, and show i to viewer, but it shouldn't be available to the sailors in real time. 

I think they can afford to open the AC50 class up more now. As much as people don't like it here, making the boats 'almost' one design worked pretty well to get close racing and there was still enough room in the rule for a one sided cup match. However, second time around, teams will be wiser to the gains and the gap would narrow. I think the exact same class rules again would stifle innovation. However, following on from my point above, they should relax the rules in areas that are obvious, not hidden electronics and power systems. A different wing shape, foil shape or division of responsibilities people can see in action and relate to. A change to a line of code, whilst probably no less innovative does little to add 'spectacle'.   

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21 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Greater Los Angeles Area Pop: 18.68 Million (2015)

New Zealand Pop: 4.6 Million (2016) 

Kinda puts this whole thing in perspective

Total number of American's 300 million people, 5 sailors out of the 14 crew, none in the "main 3".

New Zealand, 4.6 million people, all but 1 are kiwi on the entire boat...

10/10 questions to the guys the other day, right about Spithill's AC career, right about Pete, but then Pete's answer, man, what even, why'd he just read the same answer off his que cards about the teams progression through the next 2 days?

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it would be sick if they just said 50 ft long and wide and have at it

no other rules

time to see some funky shit

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Just did 28 minutes with glenn, will wrap in on my return trip. 

 

25 minute with Stan Honey (liveline, broadcast tech)

25 minutes with Mundle and Bernie Wilson (Media reach, russell coutts management)

25 with Glenn

plus another 10 or 15 of me rambling

subscribe so you get it while its hot

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-sailing-anarchy-podcast/id1120306358?mt=2

 

 

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On 6/27/2017 at 10:28 AM, eric e said:

me like!

looks a lot like my boat

except for the foils

and the price.

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40 minutes ago, MR PLOW 270 said:

it would be sick if they just said 50 ft long and wide and have at it

no other rules

time to see some funky shit

 

the more open you leave the design rule..., the less likely it is that the actual racing will be worth watching.

the rule needs to find a balance between allowing designers and engineers to find subtle "loopholes" that they think will make the boat more competitive, while at the same time, ensuring that the boats have similar enough performance across the spectrum of conditions, that the racing is interesting.

The 12 metre rule was pretty good in this regard.., and arguably so was the AC50 rule.

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36 minutes ago, us7070 said:

the more open you leave the design rule..., the less likely it is that the actual racing will be worth watching.

the rule needs to find a balance between allowing designers and engineers to find subtle "loopholes" that they think will make the boat more competitive, while at the same time, ensuring that the boats have similar enough performance across the spectrum of conditions, that the racing is interesting.

^ Very much agree with this

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39 minutes ago, us7070 said:

 

the more open you leave the design rule..., the less likely it is that the actual racing will be worth watching.

the rule needs to find a balance between allowing designers and engineers to find subtle "loopholes" that they think will make the boat more competitive, while at the same time, ensuring that the boats have similar enough performance across the spectrum of conditions, that the racing is interesting.

The 12 metre rule was pretty good in this regard.., and arguably so was the AC50 rule.

It is not so much a question of restrictive rules than the possibility and time to copy the fastest ones.

Have an open rule but let the possibility to modify the boats and QRs + LV long enough to do it.

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4 minutes ago, Geronimo said:

Not sure if this has been posted yet but this is an amazing article by Loick Peyron. Damn near changed my mind (from multi back to mono) especially after seeing the drawing for the "Mega Skiff 80" at the bottom. 

http://sailing-legends.com/journal/fromliptontoredbull?format=amp

 

ya know ... with ETNZ having the world's best Olympic class skiff sailors in-house (PB & BT), they would likely have a head start on the opposition if a big skiff is chosen. And, it would check many of the other boxes - exciting to watch a big boat planing with big colorful asylum kites, lots of string-pulling and sail-deploying for the crew to do, more 'slots' for crew on each boat, etc

Also, with the legacy great skiff sailing in Aus (18s, 49ers, etc), it might encourage at least one Aussie challenge - which would be great for the event.

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Don't forget that the big reason for smaller cats was due to the cost of labor. More sailors = more $s...

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9 minutes ago, TN_Kiwi said:

ya know ... with ETNZ having the world's best Olympic class skiff sailors in-house (PB & BT), they would likely have a head start on the opposition if a big skiff is chosen. And, it would check many of the other boxes - exciting to watch a big boat planing with big colorful asylum kites, lots of string-pulling and sail-deploying for the crew to do, more 'slots' for crew on each boat, etc

Also, with the legacy great skiff sailing in Aus (18s, 49ers, etc), it might encourage at least one Aussie challenge - which would be great for the event.

And it would cost far more than the AC-50's so it won't happen. ETNZ couldn't afford to put one on the line as a defender. 

 

Just as as a Rule of Thumb assume the three person after guard costs about $30m per campaign, every additional position on the boat costs a team about $2 million over a three year campaign.

Going from six man to twelve man crews means crew wages are going to be $48m instead of $36m. 

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7 minutes ago, Puntone said:

Remember 1988 and KZ 1

 

d53281552816523.jpg

Nothing about that boat screams "skiff". Its more like a modern J-boat than anything. 

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4 hours ago, The Jay said:

Lars, the entry list at the worlds does not "show the depth of a class" when the reality is that world attendance varies according to a lot of factors, and some classes with good world title fleets have far fewer boats being sailed in the world than others with smaller worlds fleets. A class that has only about 400 active boats in the whole world according to its own reports (like the most popular foiling dinghy) is not a very big class. It's a very portable class that gets a lot of travellers and that's great, but it's not big. 

For some classes 125 boats at a worlds is a tiny turnout. The Finns got about 450 last year at their two worlds (Open and Masters).  Techno 293s got 430+ and people want to chuck windsurfing out of the Olympics!  The Lasers have to restrict fleets and they still get hundreds.

Lots of medium size classes get 100+. Europes got 144 in Garda recently.  Contenders got 134 last time they were in Europe. Niche classes like the GP14s and Wayfarers get 100+.  Tasars got 123 in a tiny town near the world's most remote city. If the number of people at a worlds shows a class' strength then the A Class is no bigger than the Vaurien, for heaven's sake!

 

 

They don't want to "chuck windsurfing out" but for example, there are more kitesurfers racing around foiling or not, than there are windsurfers -  yet it's not included.....

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6 minutes ago, dachopper said:

Who said mono's cannot foil upwind :)    

 

Er... pretty sure the closest that go to wind was a two sail reach. 

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1 hour ago, Geronimo said:

Not sure if this has been posted yet but this is an amazing article by Loick Peyron. Damn near changed my mind (from multi back to mono) especially after seeing the drawing for the "Mega Skiff 80" at the bottom. 

http://sailing-legends.com/journal/fromliptontoredbull?format=amp

 

Really?!

I think it's pretty rubbish. Little rings true with me, except the difficulties in trying to make it a commercial success  due to long periods of inactivity. 

The older boats still had grinders head down just producing grunt. No different from the cyclors. Also missing the point that one of the key benefits of the cyclors was to have more heads actively involved in 'sailing' the boat than those who had traditional grinders. 

Yes, I agree there should be less of a buffer between power generation and power use (less stored energy) so it's more obvious when and how the energy is being used. 

But the fascination with seeing teams of men pull up and down large sails for very little difference in speed? It just really doesn't add much for me. 

Then his take on going to a massive skiff?? This just doesn't work. The thing that makes a dingy skiff work is the crew is proportionally heavy compared to the boat, so you have a large amount of movable ballast. Which makes the agility of that crew crucial. However, you can scale up the size of the boat, but you can't scale up the size of people. Sure, you can add more to the rail but they down't get taller (leverage). You end up with a monstrous dog, proven with the ultra 30's and would be even worse with a larger boat. 

So a canting keel is the only way to have effective movable ballast. But then it suddenly looses that skiff sailor feel. And you need lots of grunt or a motor to move it about. And it tacks just as slow as a cat as you have to heave a massive weight around. 

You can't just 'up scale' a skiff, because you can't upscale the sailors. So the only way to create the performance is by using a cat, where the leverage IS the boat itself. 

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mono hulls have an inherent issue with righting moment.  they need lots of weight to counter the heel.  either on the gunnel or on the keel.  either is a pain.

its a matter of physics.  One of the key advantages with the AC50 was that the sail/wing was basically upright the whole time.  add 30 degrees of heel and everything changes.

 

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make a big mono that doesnt have tonnes of lead and sails flat and i am sold.

 

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5 hours ago, dachopper said:

They don't want to "chuck windsurfing out" but for example, there are more kitesurfers racing around foiling or not, than there are windsurfers -  yet it's not included.....

There were just 49 men and five women at the last kitefoiling world championships, 100 men in the rankings and 18 women. There's no sign of much involvement by youth - there's just 13 kids ranked in TT slalom for example, and none I can find in foiling.

That's smaller than any of the Olympic classes - over ten times as many women did the Olympic windsurfer worlds. In terms of youth at world level it seems to be 20 to 1 in favour of windsurfing. Even if the look at the "cool as fuck freestylers" the numbers are small - 33 men trying to qualify for the 33-strong "elite" league, and that many include some double counting. 

This sort of stuff seems to be important when we try to decide what sort of sailing is actually attracting people to the sport, which is relevant when we're working out where the AC should go. If Russellvision was working and foiling cats were attracting people then we would be seeing an impact on the sport by now. So far it's just getting dented.

 

 

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4 hours ago, mozzy656 said:

Really?!

I think it's pretty rubbish. Little rings true with me, except the difficulties in trying to make it a commercial success  due to long periods of inactivity. 

The older boats still had grinders head down just producing grunt. No different from the cyclors. Also missing the point that one of the key benefits of the cyclors was to have more heads actively involved in 'sailing' the boat than those who had traditional grinders. 

Yes, I agree there should be less of a buffer between power generation and power use (less stored energy) so it's more obvious when and how the energy is being used. 

But the fascination with seeing teams of men pull up and down large sails for very little difference in speed? It just really doesn't add much for me. 

Then his take on going to a massive skiff?? This just doesn't work. The thing that makes a dingy skiff work is the crew is proportionally heavy compared to the boat, so you have a large amount of movable ballast. Which makes the agility of that crew crucial. However, you can scale up the size of the boat, but you can't scale up the size of people. Sure, you can add more to the rail but they down't get taller (leverage). You end up with a monstrous dog, proven with the ultra 30's and would be even worse with a larger boat. 

So a canting keel is the only way to have effective movable ballast. But then it suddenly looses that skiff sailor feel. And you need lots of grunt or a motor to move it about. And it tacks just as slow as a cat as you have to heave a massive weight around. 

You can't just 'up scale' a skiff, because you can't upscale the sailors. So the only way to create the performance is by using a cat, where the leverage IS the boat itself. 

+1000 on what you say about design. On the grinder v cyclor issue, though, aren't the cyclors just choosing a good cadence and spinning away fairly steadily?  In contrast, good grinders are using a fair amount of sailing skill when they sheet in at just the right speed and timing down every wave you surf, or out of every tack. Try grinding for an AC guy and you'll hear about it. Imaging if you had to tell your sheet arm what to do instead (like with a grinder who can't sail) compared to doing it as a reflex action (as with a grinder who knows what's up).

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6 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Don't forget that the big reason for smaller cats was due to the cost of labor. More sailors = more $s...

Kill the messenger...

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6 hours ago, StumbleNola said:

And it would cost far more than the AC-50's so it won't happen. ETNZ couldn't afford to put one on the line as a defender. 

 

Just as as a Rule of Thumb assume the three person after guard costs about $30m per campaign, every additional position on the boat costs a team about $2 million over a three year campaign.

Going from six man to twelve man crews means crew wages are going to be $48m instead of $36m. 

You've got some point, but then, why don't we make RC models, each team manager sitting in the waterfront driving them with joysticks.... Wait, bad idea, we'll have to cope with DoUgiE

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On 2017-06-27 at 8:48 PM, StumbleNola said:

I still think the teams are on the very steep part of the learning curve with the AC-50's. Give them some more time in the boats and the racing will get much tighter. The guys are still learning how to harness the big stuff, with more time comes refinement and closer racing. 

+1

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On 6/28/2017 at 0:18 AM, Doug Lord said:

A boat like this with no cabin and Verdier foils--and rudder T-foils so it doesn't drag it's ass- is a monohull foiler concept that could work for the AC. Mods to the design would include being able to foil in light air-very possible:

 

Yes this...

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5 minutes ago, jorge said:

You've got some point, but then, why don't we make RC models, each team manager sitting in the waterfront driving them with joysticks.... Wait, bad idea, we'll have to cope with DoUgiE

It's all about balance and no point in going to the extreme. You could just argue  why even build a RC id to much when you just can run the design algoritms agaist each others in vitual  races.. right? The point was that larger crews costs more, big design changes cost more and higher costs mesns fewer will be competing.

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Foils shmoils..... most of you need to go around to Dougs this week for a quick reach around to relieve the pressure. When will you guys get it, sailing is not a spectator sport and trying to make it one is killing it

 

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8 minutes ago, Gutterblack said:

Foils shmoils..... most of you need to go around to Dougs this week for a quick reach around to relieve the pressure. When will you guys get it, sailing is not a spectator sport and trying to make it one is killing it

 

not sure what you watched over the last month

 

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We need to remember whatever boat or design that is used, the teams will spend all the money they have to make it go faster. If they were racing bath tubs, and they had 100 million to spend to make it faster, they would.

Any new design will take all the teams back to square one, and all would need to spend the money because it is a new design, and it would be harder for new teams to join.

By keeping the current hull and wing design, there are 6 (maybe 7 OTUSA second boat)  boats available to be used or sold to new teams. I would guess Prada would be happy to buy ETNZ's boat for a few million. It gets them a winning boat, and it gives ETNZ a powerful training partner, plus funds to keep running and to develop a new boat and systems.

I would look at battery or electric powered hydro systems, freeing up the crew to sail the boat. There is still the design challenge of reducing weight, while maintaining sufficient power to sail. Also batteries give you the greenie/eco vote.

The advantage (foiling) cats have for match racing, is it is harder to defend as the attacker has more options as they have a wider range of sailing angles to achieve near max VMG up or downwind. Also the right puff or shift will get you back into the game. Also mistakes are more costly as the speed loss is greater.

Given the wind range most races are held in 5 to 15 knots, we need boats that get up and go, and foiling cats do that. If the racing was in Fremantle, with 20 to 35 knots of wind, then light displacement mono's could be a possible option, but in 5 to 15 knots no,

If you want tacking duels, then you need heavy slow boats that don't lose any speed or distance when tacking. I fully understand there is a lot of skill required to drag 20 tonnes of lead around a racetrack, but bulldozer racing just doesn't do it for me.

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