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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

The Next Boat-----2020

805 posts in this topic

and if you think this is safer, maybe try throwing a bowman over the windward side bow at 30 knots and see how they fair.   

 

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6 hours ago, Geronimo said:

Nothing about that boat screams "skiff". Its more like a modern J-boat than anything. 

 

6 hours ago, Puntone said:

Remember 1988 and KZ 1

 

d53281552816523.jpg

When Team NZ took KZ1 for it's first sail, Peter Blake was physically sailing rings around it with his tri Steinlager 3.

As DC said, KZ1 was a dog.

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On ‎28‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 0:40 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

Greater Los Angeles Area Pop: 18.68 Million (2015)

New Zealand Pop: 4.6 Million (2016) 

Kinda puts this whole thing in perspective

Doesn't that make it all the more galling then that ETNZ from that little country kicked USA's ass then Alan

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4 minutes ago, Simon Propper said:

Make bigger with wing

 

 

it is cool but its not scalable. its righting moment is people on the rail.  

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I was under the impression that when Team New Zealand was catch strapped and going under Luna Rossa came to the rescue. However the money wasn't free ( It never is) If TNZ won then Luna Rossa was the challenger of record and it would be in mono hulls. It could be that Luna Rossa is calling the shots. 

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Just now, mako23 said:

I was under the impression that when Team New Zealand was catch strapped and going under Luna Rossa came to the rescue. However the money wasn't free ( It never is) If TNZ won then Luna Rossa was the challenger of record and it would be in mono hulls. It could be that Luna Rossa is calling the shots. 

yes seems that way, 30 millions dollars was mentioned.   but even LR must have watched the racing.  

 

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5 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I was under the impression that when Team New Zealand was catch strapped and going under Luna Rossa came to the rescue. However the money wasn't free ( It never is) If TNZ won then Luna Rossa was the challenger of record and it would be in mono hulls. It could be that Luna Rossa is calling the shots

They : http://www.rnzys.org.nz/ are calling the shots.

If there is a deal between Luna Rossa and ETNZ, why would RNZYS have to obey that deal?

Are you in fact claiming that RNZYS is just a made up club, clearly not true if you are?

Could it be that there would even be multiple defenders, not just ETNZ, or is that just a false rumor?

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20 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Absolutely, I have been repeating that during the last 2 years now.

+ 1

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1 minute ago, NotSoFast said:

They : http://www.rnzys.org.nz/ are calling the shots.

If there is a deal between Luna Rossa and ETNZ, why would RNZYS have to obey that deal?

Are you in fact claiming that RNZYS is just a made up club, clearly not true if you are?

Could it be that there would even be multiple defenders, not just ETNZ, or is that just a false rumor?

RNZYS are just the nominal heads. They don't have any real power.  I'm not even sure that Grant Dalton has absolute power. 

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12 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

If there is a deal between Luna Rossa and ETNZ, why would RNZYS have to obey that deal?

Because, as is so unique to Kiwis, RNZYS will honor the Framework Agreement deal that GD long ago shook hands with the Italians on? :D

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17 minutes ago, Qman said:

yes seems that way, 30 millions dollars was mentioned.   but even LR must have watched the racing.  

 

I don't begrudge LR there say in picking the boat. Without there help TNZ would never of won.  From a kiwi point of view seems fair that they get that privilege after all that cash was given. On a personnel point of view I love Foiling cats. From a safety issue, Foiling is not safe in the Harbour,  unless its close to the Harbour Bridge. However the wind shifts would be hard to handle and slightly risky on foils. Might make great racing to watch 

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46 minutes ago, Qman said:

it is cool but its not scalable. its righting moment is people on the rail.  

That is one of the craziest things I've seen on water. Not even a hull..thanks for posting this

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8 minutes ago, mako23 said:

From a safety issue, Foiling is not safe in the Harbour,  unless its close to the Harbour Bridge. However the wind shifts would be hard to handle and slightly risky on foils. Might make great racing to watch 

Crap.  Foiling can be safe if foils are built to be safe, ie stable and less on edge. And this isnt a coastal classic race, some danger is fine at this sporting level.

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27 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

They : http://www.rnzys.org.nz/ are calling the shots.

If there is a deal between Luna Rossa and ETNZ, why would RNZYS have to obey that deal?

Are you in fact claiming that RNZYS is just a made up club, clearly not true if you are?

Could it be that there would even be multiple defenders, not just ETNZ, or is that just a false rumor?

the yacht clubs haven't called the shots for years.   

i expect that GD will honour is deal with luna rosa but i hope that LR can see the wood from the trees. for the sake of the cup

 

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If they made a deal and honor it, monohulls wil be. GD talked in the presser about getting closer to Isaf and vor. Vor are monohulls, don't accept multihulls.

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On ‎28‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 5:14 AM, dachopper said:

It's about time we see Royal Perth Yacht Club put their fingers back into the pie, and get the cup back to freo..... if the helmsman and crew need to be nationals.... all we need for an aus team is a boat made in china and we are good :)

 

I believe AUS35 was built in China and we all know how that ended up right? :P

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1 hour ago, Qman said:

not sure what you watched over the last month

 

He probably watched an event that rates poorly and costs an enormous amount of money to run. It was called the America's Cup.

Buoy linked the US ratings in another thread. The AC finals, a once in four year event, got outrated by regular domestic track and field racing and by the second tier of NASCAR. When the volleyball was on the same weekend a year ago, it rated higher than the AC. When the diving and mens' gymnastics were on the same weekend a year ago, they rated almost four times as high as the AC.

If the top-ranking mega-dollar event in a sport gets outrated by people diving and by poodles jumping through hoops then can it really be called a spectator sport?

 

 

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New Zealand has a reputation for being a very "green" country looking out for the environment. These cats whilst spectacular are disposable and have no future if the rules change. The have no value and might as well be thrown onto the rubbish heap. 

The Kiwis should look to the past and get AC racing back to a rule that will produce recyclable boats. The old J's have made a resurgence as a rich gits ultimate race boat, whilst old 12m's are now days used for taking backpackers on day trips, ocean or club racing and even cruising. I don't see a future for the AC cats.

The next AC boats should be of a design that will allow them to be repurposed once their AC days are over and foiling cats powered by cyclists is not a boat with a future.

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If the Italians want monos, then I am sure that is what will happen as per the deal with ETNZ.  The big problem for ETNZ is the loss of that Italian money when there will have to be an enormous amount of development work to produce a competitive boat when starting from scratch.  Whilst the core sponsors (Toyota, Lotto, Steinlager, F&P etc.) will stump up about $20 mill amongst themselves, and Emirates will probably toss in at least that much, there will still be a substantial shortfall compared to other teams, especially LR.  I am sure the NZ public, whilst wallowing in the euphoria of the win now, will not be keen for the Government to kick large amounts of taxpayer dollars to help the team again.

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45 minutes ago, hoppy said:

New Zealand has a reputation for being a very "green" country looking out for the environment. These cats whilst spectacular are disposable and have no future if the rules change. The have no value and might as well be thrown onto the rubbish heap. 

The Kiwis should look to the past and get AC racing back to a rule that will produce recyclable boats. The old J's have made a resurgence as a rich gits ultimate race boat, whilst old 12m's are now days used for taking backpackers on day trips, ocean or club racing and even cruising. I don't see a future for the AC cats.

The next AC boats should be of a design that will allow them to be repurposed once their AC days are over and foiling cats powered by cyclists is not a boat with a future.

NZ is green due to a low population. It has fuck all to do with sustainable practices.

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24 minutes ago, jaysper said:

NZ is green due to a low population. It has fuck all to do with sustainable practices.

NZ is green because we cut down all the fucking bush and replaced it with green grass for fucking cows to eat.  

Fucking cows, and Farmers Fucking Sheep.  <---- Too much of all of this.  

Green my brown fucking balls.

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11 hours ago, Puntone said:

Remember 1988 and KZ 1

 

d53281552816523.jpg

Few remember the Big Boat. Many more remember Dennis' Cat that thrashed her.

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Due to the fact the Italians payed for the right to choice which boat type in the next regatta ,  puts an interesting spin on things. The long term viewing figures, and number of syndicates is not their concern. The fewer competing syndicates the better. Patrizio Bertelli has been fighting to win the cup for twenty years.  He is  71 years old at the moment. He cant wait another twenty years. Hes also behind in the technology used in foiling cats. As close he is to ETNZ, there not going to give him their design plans. His best chance is mono hulls, not foiling cats. As for team as New Zealand, they have to honour the deal. They took the thirty pieces of silver and now the bill has come due. I guess the only way out of this mess is give them a challenge using the old class design in mono hulls. If ETNZ win then its back to the cats,  if LR wins who knows. I could even seem Larry Ellison helping to fund ETNZ on the promise if they win back to AC50 cats.  If any one see any of ETNZ AC92 boats being moved let us know

 Team New Zealand deal  with the Italians link 

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2 hours ago, loryda said:

NZ is green because we cut down all the fucking bush and replaced it with green grass for fucking cows to eat.  

Fucking cows, and Farmers Fucking Sheep.  <---- Too much of all of this.  

Green my brown fucking balls.

What the hell has this got to deal with sailing ?????

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5 hours ago, pacice said:

We need to remember whatever boat or design that is used, the teams will spend all the money they have to make it go faster. If they were racing bath tubs, and they had 100 million to spend to make it faster, they would.

Any new design will take all the teams back to square one, and all would need to spend the money because it is a new design, and it would be harder for new teams to join.

By keeping the current hull and wing design, there are 6 (maybe 7 OTUSA second boat)  boats available to be used or sold to new teams. I would guess Prada would be happy to buy ETNZ's boat for a few million. It gets them a winning boat, and it gives ETNZ a powerful training partner, plus funds to keep running and to develop a new boat and systems.

I would look at battery or electric powered hydro systems, freeing up the crew to sail the boat. There is still the design challenge of reducing weight, while maintaining sufficient power to sail. Also batteries give you the greenie/eco vote.

The advantage (foiling) cats have for match racing, is it is harder to defend as the attacker has more options as they have a wider range of sailing angles to achieve near max VMG up or downwind. Also the right puff or shift will get you back into the game. Also mistakes are more costly as the speed loss is greater.

Given the wind range most races are held in 5 to 15 knots, we need boats that get up and go, and foiling cats do that. If the racing was in Fremantle, with 20 to 35 knots of wind, then light displacement mono's could be a possible option, but in 5 to 15 knots no,

If you want tacking duels, then you need heavy slow boats that don't lose any speed or distance when tacking. I fully understand there is a lot of skill required to drag 20 tonnes of lead around a racetrack, but bulldozer racing just doesn't do it for me.

What this guy said.   ^^^^

I've watched Stewart 34s match racing, the one highlight was when Russell Coutts T-boned the committee boat under the Harbour bridge.

Young sailors today may start in Opti's, but the career path is in high performance skiffs and Hydras.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, mako23 said:

What the hell has this got to deal with sailing ?????

His post history suggests that he's an idiot.

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10 minutes ago, Zarkov said:

His post history suggests that he's an idiot.

Thanks you gave me a good laugh

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

What the hell has this got to deal with sailing ?????

Sweet fuck all mate, sorry my bad, as you were.. 

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18 minutes ago, loryda said:

Sweet fuck all mate, sorry my bad, as you were.. 

No problems mate

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How about the Kiwis design a 120' mono and the rest of us use wing sailed 60' cats. That would make tops viewing. 

 

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1 hour ago, Zarkov said:

What this guy said.   ^^^^

I've watched Stewart 34s match racing, the one highlight was when Russell Coutts T-boned the committee boat under the Harbour bridge.

Young sailors today may start in Opti's, but the career path is in high performance skiffs and Hydras.

 

 

 

He's gone on to make something of a habit of that particular trick. Just as well they wouldn't let him stear the AC50. Fuck, imagine the carnage. It would be pretty hard to miss IM aboard these days too.

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2 hours ago, LionIsland said:

How about the Kiwis design a 120' mono and the rest of us use wing sailed 60' cats. That would make tops viewing. 

 

Even it was a 200 foot mono hull, we would lose, and badly at that.  The only mono hull that would win, would be an aircraft carrier that could sink the other boats. 

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4 hours ago, Zarkov said:

What this guy said.   ^^^^

I've watched Stewart 34s match racing, the one highlight was when Russell Coutts T-boned the committee boat under the Harbour bridge.

Young sailors today may start in Opti's, but the career path is in high performance skiffs and Hydras.

 

 

 

So  the career path is now only for those who can afford a skiff or foiler (which are a lot more expensive than older classes) and can find a job on one of the very few big foilers?

Yep, fuck 99% of kids over and let the rich kids win. That's the modern way. 

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2 hours ago, LionIsland said:

How about the Kiwis design a 120' mono and the rest of us use wing sailed 60' cats. That would make tops viewing. 

 

A 20m wide course. NZ starts with the downwind run. Challengers start at the same time with an upwind run. Whoever is still floating at the end wins.

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8 minutes ago, The Jay said:

So  the career path is now only for those who can afford a skiff or foiler (which are a lot more expensive than older classes) and can find a job on one of the very few big foilers?

Yep, fuck 99% of kids over and let the rich kids win. That's the modern way. 

Waszp for 10500$

UFO 7600 $

New Laser 7000$

It's not that bad? 

 

Moth and a-cats are way more expensive, they are development classes, so have to compare able to ables.

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9 hours ago, jorge said:

If they made a deal and honor it, monohulls wil be. GD talked in the presser about getting closer to Isaf and vor. Vor are monohulls, don't accept multihulls.

From May 2017

 

The Volvo Ocean Race has unveiled a series of radical initiatives that aims to create the toughest all-round test in professional sailing and strengthen the appeal of the 44-year-old round-the-world race to pro sailors, team owners and their sponsors, race partners, host cities and fans.

While the final preparations are being made for the 2017-18 edition, starting 22 October, race organisers used a live event at the Volvo Museum in Gothenburg, the home of the race’s owners and title sponsors, to present a bold vision for the next decade and beyond.

Highlights include the choice of a new 60-foot (18.29 metre) foil-assisted One Design ocean racing monohull, designed by France’s Guillaume Verdier, plus the introduction of a challenging 32-50 foot (10-15m) One Design ‘flying’ catamaran for In-Port Races, for which a new design and build tender process was launched today.

The offshore legs will remain the key to winning the Volvo Ocean Race, but the inshore racing will count more than the current situation, where it acts only as a tiebreaker. That means winning the race in future will demand expertise in both monohull racing offshore and multihull racing in the In-Port Series, as both platforms will be raced by essentially the same crew.

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40 minutes ago, lars75k said:

Waszp for 10500$

UFO 7600 $

New Laser 7000$

It's not that bad? 

 

Moth and a-cats are way more expensive, they are development classes, so have to compare able to ables.

There's no Waszp or UFO class yet. It would be great if they succeeded but we can't bet on it, and we can't bet that they will become part of the accepted career path.

Only 21% of US parents spend more than $1000 per year on their kid's sport. The difference in purchase price between a Laser and a UFO alone - forgetting about maintenance, wetsuits, club fees, regatta fees, repairs  and the rest - is pretty close to what most parents spend each year for everything for their kid's sport. There's no second-hand market or fleets, so the real entry point is much higher.

By the standards of most people sailing is already too expensive. If we ignore that sort of price hike then the sport deserves to be in trouble. Most kids can't afford to sail the classes I sail either, and we shouldn't fuck them over when we look at the career path in the future.

In many places, the next generation are facing tough economic times. Older people have left many of them with big tuition debts, crappy work, and high house prices. Their disposable income is likely to drop dramatically and many of them are getting into cheap sports. Expecting them to pay more for boats could be very old fashioned thinking, and perhaps part of the reason the sport is shrinking. 

At the top end, we have fewer pros in the AC now than we used to, so fewer jobs for sailors.

I'm not attacking high performance classes. The boats are great; I sail one. But people are sticking the boot into slower seahugging classes, saying they should be out of the AC and that they're no good for training future talent, and I'm just trying to give another viewpoint. 

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11 hours ago, jorge said:

You've got some point, but then, why don't we make RC models, each team manager sitting in the waterfront driving them with joysticks.... Wait, bad idea, we'll have to cope with DoUgiE

I'm sure if you employ the same people that for instance construct the stadiums for the world cup you can have a sailor for much less. So perhaps the trick is to put a cap on total budget and then you can choose if you want to use a few high paid sailors 6 or many more cheaper.

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13 hours ago, The Jay said:

There were just 49 men and five women at the last kitefoiling world championships, 100 men in the rankings and 18 women. There's no sign of much involvement by youth - there's just 13 kids ranked in TT slalom for example, and none I can find in foiling.

That's smaller than any of the Olympic classes - over ten times as many women did the Olympic windsurfer worlds. In terms of youth at world level it seems to be 20 to 1 in favour of windsurfing. Even if the look at the "cool as fuck freestylers" the numbers are small - 33 men trying to qualify for the 33-strong "elite" league, and that many include some double counting. 

This sort of stuff seems to be important when we try to decide what sort of sailing is actually attracting people to the sport, which is relevant when we're working out where the AC should go. If Russellvision was working and foiling cats were attracting people then we would be seeing an impact on the sport by now. So far it's just getting dented.

 

 

Make it an Olympic event and see how large the class becomes...... the numbers if riders is greater, almost like saying there are less pro surfers on world tour than 420 sailors, therefore 420s are more important.... when there are more people surfing?

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2 hours ago, nutsack said:

From May 2017

 

The Volvo Ocean Race has unveiled a series of radical initiatives that aims to create the toughest all-round test in professional sailing and strengthen the appeal of the 44-year-old round-the-world race to pro sailors, team owners and their sponsors, race partners, host cities and fans.

While the final preparations are being made for the 2017-18 edition, starting 22 October, race organisers used a live event at the Volvo Museum in Gothenburg, the home of the race’s owners and title sponsors, to present a bold vision for the next decade and beyond.

Highlights include the choice of a new 60-foot (18.29 metre) foil-assisted One Design ocean racing monohull, designed by France’s Guillaume Verdier, plus the introduction of a challenging 32-50 foot (10-15m) One Design ‘flying’ catamaran for In-Port Races, for which a new design and build tender process was launched today.

The offshore legs will remain the key to winning the Volvo Ocean Race, but the inshore racing will count more than the current situation, where it acts only as a tiebreaker. That means winning the race in future will demand expertise in both monohull racing offshore and multihull racing in the In-Port Series, as both platforms will be raced by essentially the same crew.

Seems  good to me. But i haven't got a vote

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But, its going  to be difficult for sponsoring Both  classes 

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18 hours ago, pacice said:

We need to remember whatever boat or design that is used, the teams will spend all the money they have to make it go faster. If they were racing bath tubs, and they had 100 million to spend to make it faster, they would.

Any new design will take all the teams back to square one, and all would need to spend the money because it is a new design, and it would be harder for new teams to join.

By keeping the current hull and wing design, there are 6 (maybe 7 OTUSA second boat)  boats available to be used or sold to new teams. I would guess Prada would be happy to buy ETNZ's boat for a few million. It gets them a winning boat, and it gives ETNZ a powerful training partner, plus funds to keep running and to develop a new boat and systems.

I would look at battery or electric powered hydro systems, freeing up the crew to sail the boat. There is still the design challenge of reducing weight, while maintaining sufficient power to sail. Also batteries give you the greenie/eco vote.

The advantage (foiling) cats have for match racing, is it is harder to defend as the attacker has more options as they have a wider range of sailing angles to achieve near max VMG up or downwind. Also the right puff or shift will get you back into the game. Also mistakes are more costly as the speed loss is greater.

Given the wind range most races are held in 5 to 15 knots, we need boats that get up and go, and foiling cats do that. If the racing was in Fremantle, with 20 to 35 knots of wind, then light displacement mono's could be a possible option, but in 5 to 15 knots no,

If you want tacking duels, then you need heavy slow boats that don't lose any speed or distance when tacking. I fully understand there is a lot of skill required to drag 20 tonnes of lead around a racetrack, but bulldozer racing just doesn't do it for me.

I have to disagree with a few of those points..... nobody in their right mind would spend millions purchasing the loosing yacht, or even the winning yacht used in last years' Americas' cup. It would be like using last year's Ferrari engine in Formula1, and we all know what that means.... Last, and best place mid field somewhere.

Heck - There was such a large speed disparity between ETNZ and all the other teams, that you could argue another 3 years of R&D from the "others" may result in no gain.

Now on the Mono slug front, think outside the box. Light weight yacht with centerboard, small rig maybe designed to foil. There is nothing that you could not achieve, of course you could foil in 5 - 15 kts, but it has to be designed to achieve it. We haven't seen it yet ( don't know what moth's need these days ), which is why it would be interesting to see what they could come up with......

 

Too expensive? make them smaller to save costs then!

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, lars75k said:

Waszp for 10500$

UFO 7600 $

New Laser 7000$

It's not that bad? 

 

Moth and a-cats are way more expensive, they are development classes, so have to compare able to ables.

Foiling Kitesurfer can be had for $6000 if you want the gear used by world number 1, or maybe $3000 - 4000 to be less competitive ;)

 

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Everyone keeps on about the cost of the boats... at this level the boats are basically free, the hull and appendages simply are not a major investment for any of the teams compeating. 

Right now now you could walk into a shop in NZ and have one built for less than $5m NZD (about $3.75m usd). A TP-52 by comparison runs about half that including sails. 

 

The reason someone would buy and old AC-50 is to accelerate the crew training program and get guys out in a foiling cat. It has nothing to do with planning to use it in the regatta. 

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8 hours ago, dachopper said:

Make it an Olympic event and see how large the class becomes...... the numbers if riders is greater, almost like saying there are less pro surfers on world tour than 420 sailors, therefore 420s are more important.... when there are more people surfing?

It's probably already benefiting from having been nominated as an OIympic class. And unlike kitefoiling, other forms of sailing were huge before they got Olympic status. Other forms of sailing, like keelboats, remain huge after they've lost Olympic status, or despite never having had it (like singlehanded cats). Why should we give kiting special treatment?

Oh, and I used the number at world championships because I was replying to Lars, who had earlier used that same measure. 

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4 hours ago, StumbleNola said:

.. The reason someone would buy and old AC-50 is to accelerate the crew training program and get guys out in a foiling cat. It has nothing to do with planning to use it in the regatta. 

Another reason would be if that purchase included engineering design, change management, supply chain, etc software packages along with it. 

Getting guys out on a foiling cat is cool and is visible but it's just a foil-tip into the deep water.

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16 hours ago, mako23 said:

Even it was a 200 foot mono hull, we would lose, and badly at that.  The only mono hull that would win, would be an aircraft carrier that could sink the other boats. 

Pity they hadn't figured that out in San Diego. Kiwis, slow learners but they do get there finally. Which puts them way ahead of us in Oz, Yeah yeah. 1983 blah blah blah. How many attempts did that take!?

( but who knows, come 2020, we might be firing!) 

 

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20 minutes ago, LionIsland said:

( but who knows, come 2020, we might be firing!) 

With Australia having a mining industry still suffering from a post post boom phase.  I have the my doubts on how much the Aussie public would be behind it. However I accept you would know a lot more about this. I have no doubt that Aussie engineers could put up a competitive design together. I spent a few years in Aussie doing I.T.  a long time ago,and I greatly admire there "can do" attitude which is just like us Kiwi's. In some respect's  I greatly admire you shackle draggers. Now if you can excuse me I have a sheep that needs my attention.   

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18 hours ago, The Jay said:

There's no Waszp or UFO class yet. It would be great if they succeeded but we can't bet on it, and we can't bet that they will become part of the accepted career path.

Only 21% of US parents spend more than $1000 per year on their kid's sport. The difference in purchase price between a Laser and a UFO alone - forgetting about maintenance, wetsuits, club fees, regatta fees, repairs  and the rest - is pretty close to what most parents spend each year for everything for their kid's sport. There's no second-hand market or fleets, so the real entry point is much higher.

By the standards of most people sailing is already too expensive. If we ignore that sort of price hike then the sport deserves to be in trouble. Most kids can't afford to sail the classes I sail either, and we shouldn't fuck them over when we look at the career path in the future.

In many places, the next generation are facing tough economic times. Older people have left many of them with big tuition debts, crappy work, and high house prices. Their disposable income is likely to drop dramatically and many of them are getting into cheap sports. Expecting them to pay more for boats could be very old fashioned thinking, and perhaps part of the reason the sport is shrinking. 

At the top end, we have fewer pros in the AC now than we used to, so fewer jobs for sailors.

I'm not attacking high performance classes. The boats are great; I sail one. But people are sticking the boot into slower seahugging classes, saying they should be out of the AC and that they're no good for training future talent, and I'm just trying to give another viewpoint. 

Sailing in NZ is like any sport, you start off in cheap,[often free boats provided by clubs], and move up a proven amateur pathway through P class, Laser etc until you have shown above average ability.  At that point kids in any sport take one of two paths, they continue to sail cause they like it [like me], using whatever boat they can get, or better still, on someone else's boat, or they aspire to higher things.

Any good club should have recognized exceptional talent at this stage, and be assisting it, and like any sport there are associations and national organizations who help develop young talent, and provide the boats to go with it.

The other route is courtesy of a well off family, but money can't buy talent and so it's usually a short journey.

Elite yachting in my youth was much more the preserve of the well heeled than it is today, and certainly Olympic success nowadays reflects talent, not wealth.

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7 hours ago, The Jay said:

It's probably already benefiting from having been nominated as an OIympic class. And unlike kitefoiling, other forms of sailing were huge before they got Olympic status. Other forms of sailing, like keelboats, remain huge after they've lost Olympic status, or despite never having had it (like singlehanded cats). Why should we give kiting special treatment?

Oh, and I used the number at world championships because I was replying to Lars, who had earlier used that same measure. 

Well.... you say huge before, but ... take the lighthouse to Leighton kite race in Perth. It is oversubscribed every single year with only 110 or so entrants allowed. Now this is probably 70-80 guys in the same class in that event. Compare that with sailing and show me a single event on the 4000 km coastline of WA, that gets a field if 70 in the same class...cue  crickets.. Maybe windsurfing in its  hey day, but that's gone now. 

 

You need to give sport a reason to grow, by sponsorship and advertising etc..... the field is there. If kite foiling were announced say as a sailing Olympic event, I would bet that the field would grow massively because it is affordable and achievable for the average Joe. 

 

Foiling cats on the otherharnd, unachievable for most. 

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18 hours ago, dachopper said:

nobody in their right mind would spend millions purchasing the loosing yacht, or even the winning yacht used in last years' Americas' cup.

Heck - There was such a large speed disparity between ETNZ and all the other teams, that you could argue another 3 years of R&D from the "others" may result in no gain.

You're thinking new teams and sponsors would be chiefly concerned with winning. The sponsors main concern will be associating with the America's brand, history and prestige. 

Buying an old, even loosing yacht puts a new entrant just a vinyl wrap away from achieving that number 1 sponsor aim. Zero R&D, zero build time. A few snazzy videos of the old but newly graphic covered  boat, a VIP tent at a world series event and you have 90% of your sponsorship value right there. Being competitive is just a cherry on top.

If the team / sponsors are really in it for the long run, and want to actually challenge for the cup they can move on and build their own for the actual cup. In the meantime an old boat is a great testing platform. They'd just need to start producing foils and playing with control systems.

Chances are both team Japan and Groupama would have taken an old boat through to the finals if that had been an option this time round. 

 

18 hours ago, dachopper said:

Now on the Mono slug front, think outside the box. Light weight yacht with centerboard, small rig maybe designed to foil. There is nothing that you could not achieve, of course you could foil in 5 - 15 kts, but it has to be designed to achieve it. We haven't seen it yet ( don't know what moth's need these days ), which is why it would be interesting to see what they could come up with......

Light weight yacht with centerboard that foils? Where would the righting moment come from? Skiffs and Moths work because the boat is so light and small compared to the human ballast providing the righting moment (typically crew are over 50%+ of total weight). Unfortunately, you can scale the size of the boat up, but you can't magic bigger people.

You could have a massive swing keel... but that wouldn't be any quicker than a cat to tack and would be a nightmare in close match racing scenario (just imagine taking to leeward of someone  then swinging your keel up and below them whilst call 'windward'). 

Cat's have in built righting moment with all appendages inside the platform. 

18 hours ago, dachopper said:

Too expensive? make them smaller to save costs then!

Really? The cost is in R&D then tooling up manufacturing. Once all that is paid for making the hull 10-20 ft longer and employing an extra 1-2 crew makes little difference. 

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OK, I'll don my nomex onsie and wade in on this...

As I was growing up (ya, one of the oldies chiming in) the AC was about 2 things... match racing and innovation.

Because the 'cost' of maneuvering is so high in multies, foiling or otherwise, I'd like to see a return to monohulls to reinforce the match racing aspect.

One design may be a truer test of the sailor, but a ) there are lots of existing one design events and b ) there's no cool new developments. So given that this is a test of the super-rich (or super good at getting funding) then hang the expense and lets go open and really get some development happening... This is MotoGP not WorldSBK.

Here's the rule:

72 feet (a bit random, but I feel the boats should be that sorf of length as a minimum to keep it 'grand')

12 crew (or 9 or whatever number makes it challenging to sail)

No stored power... you want a canting keel? go for it, but you better have a fast system to swap sides or the fixed keel guy you're racing will be pulling the flag and making you do circles all day long

Identify the race area (let's say the Hauraki gulf) and remind people then need to be prepared to race in any weather (I always thought it was silly when the optis were still out when the AC boats were cancelling). don't talk to me about danger... motorcycle and car and hydroplane and airplane racing at the top levels are dangerous... So are Volvo VG etc.

ya, I think that's it... now go nuts with it and let the rich guys do the R&D for the rest of us... eg.  IACC had huge bulbs, but were also draft limited by the rule so we have no idea what the ideal mix is for adding draft so you can lessen weight compared to the increased drag from the additional foil depth. In an earlier post

 

 

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On 2017-6-30 at 4:24 PM, dachopper said:

Well.... you say huge before, but ... take the lighthouse to Leighton kite race in Perth. It is oversubscribed every single year with only 110 or so entrants allowed. Now this is probably 70-80 guys in the same class in that event. Compare that with sailing and show me a single event on the 4000 km coastline of WA, that gets a field if 70 in the same class...cue  crickets.. Maybe windsurfing in its  hey day, but that's gone now. 

 

You need to give sport a reason to grow, by sponsorship and advertising etc..... the field is there. If kite foiling were announced say as a sailing Olympic event, I would bet that the field would grow massively because it is affordable and achievable for the average Joe. 

 

Foiling cats on the otherharnd, unachievable for most. 

Completely agree that foiling cats are unobtainable - and even the comparatively obtainable ones seem to be getting whipped by kitefoilers!  Kiting is one of the few types of sailing I haven't done, and I'm keen to try kitefoiling because the speeds are something else.However, what interests me is irrelevant to what is popular.

The L to L isn't representative of what's happening elsewhere, nor is it the biggest sailing event in WA - the Governor's Cup had more than that (80 finishers 2016), and it's just one of many, many keelboat events.  I can't find any information on a big kitesurfing race on the other side of the country.  Just ignoring the kites, there is no other similar windsurfing event in the entire country, which shows what an unusual event it is. And if L to L is symbolic, then it shows that kites are only half as popular as windsurfers.

Sure, maybe kitesurfing would grow if it was Olympic, but that applies to many other sailing disciplines. Other disciplines were huge BEFORE they became Olympic, and other disciplines (inshore keelboats, for example) have stayed huge AFTER being dropped or without much promotion at all.

No disrespect to kiting, but like many of my own favourite forms of sailing, it's not a particularly popular way to race under sail. It doesn't necessarily show the way forward for the AC..... in fact the amazing way the kites perform against the cats makes the foiling cats look old fashioned in some ways.

 

 

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On 2017-7-1 at 2:23 AM, overdraft said:

 

As I was growing up (ya, one of the oldies chiming in) the AC was about 2 things... match racing and innovation.

It was very limited innovation, though. The AC was often decades late in taking on innovations like sloop rigs, bermudan rigs, carbon hulls, plastic masts, mylar sails, asymmetric spinnakers, bendy masts, wing masts, wing sails, planing hulls, multis, foiing, 'glass hulls, sandwich hulls, alloy hulls, you name it.

The AC has normally been about 25 years behind the times of what's happening at the leading edge. That's not very innovative.  

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On 2017-06-27 at 8:07 AM, Rejected said:

what good tv ???   there was no good tv.     there was no racing  unless you consider straight line drag racing to be racing.    it was a very poor spectacle  and got no press coverage in canada whatsoever.    little boring toys better suited to beach regattas  have nothing to offer in the way of majesty.    as said by dalts in the presser,   look at all those J boats......damn,  now they are impressive.     yes that is elitist,  but so are these stupid hydraulic flivvers with bicycles.     bring back big monos that impress.

thats funny.... i was in a pub not far from your place watching a few of the races on tv.

get your head out of your ass.

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6 hours ago, The Jay said:

Completely agree that foiling cats are unobtainable - and even the comparatively obtainable ones seem to be getting whipped by kitefoilers!  Kiting is one of the few types of sailing I haven't done, and I'm keen to try kitefoiling because the speeds are something else.However, what interests me is irrelevant to what is popular.

The L to L isn't representative of what's happening elsewhere, nor is it the biggest sailing event in WA - the Governor's Cup had more than that (80 finishers 2016), and it's just one of many, many keelboat events.  I can't find any information on a big kitesurfing race on the other side of the country.  Just ignoring the kites, there is no other similar windsurfing event in the entire country, which shows what an unusual event it is. And if L to L is symbolic, then it shows that kites are only half as popular as windsurfers.

Sure, maybe kitesurfing would grow if it was Olympic, but that applies to many other sailing disciplines. Other disciplines were huge BEFORE they became Olympic, and other disciplines (inshore keelboats, for example) have stayed huge AFTER being dropped or without much promotion at all.

No disrespect to kiting, but like many of my own favourite forms of sailing, it's not a particularly popular way to race under sail. It doesn't necessarily show the way forward for the AC..... in fact the amazing way the kites perform against the cats makes the foiling cats look old fashioned in some ways.

 

 

Kite foiling is simply too hard to have mass appeal - it takes years to get competent enough to race and finish within even 150% of the elite guys.  Eventually someone will come up with a workable seated hydrofoiler for kites that will become the fastest boat around a course (as won't be so limited by windage and righting moment) and be a bit easier to sail, the kites have improved immensely in the last few years as a result of the racing and the jump to hydrofoil racing a few years back.

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What makes the AC so special and unique?

i think it's 5things: 1) the history, country v country. They must bring back nationality rules, Shirley  2) the boats have always been unusual (the J's were breathtaking, 12's were slow ugly uninspiring but weird and unique things that they got rid of none too soon but the design rule was tight, the NZ big boat v Dennis's winged cat was a poorly executed bazarre mismatch,  the 80 footers were beautiful but pretty boring, Valencia's mega BMW/Oracle tri v  Alinghi cat was also a bazarre spectacular mismatch, the 72'cats of SF were amazing on so many levels not least because of the incredibly lucky and good fortune that the two boats left standing, USA and NZ, were so close in boat speed that it created that dramatic soap opera if SF in 2013 that you couldn't have scripted with more lead swaps than all of the previous ACs put together and finally the 50's in BDA with USA being just a tiny bit slower making it a dull final in comparison to the challenger series but there's not much you can do about that and I believe will be the most common AC scenario with really close match ups like 1983 and 2013 being the exception and not the rule. If USA had been less than 1 % faster in BDA it would have been a whole different series.

3) the exclusivity, its always has been a mega rich person's sport but it means they are spending money,

4) the match racing concept which is so different to fleet racing and is an integral part of the AC and 

 5)the uniqueness of having a challenger series finding a challenger to take on the lying-in-wait defender. (FFS!!! Please don't ever have the defender sailing in the challenger series again!!!- what a fucking stupid idea that was!!!)

so, in conclusion IMO, whether the boats are butt ugly slow mono or state of the art foiling cats doesn't really matter to the matchracing aspect but I do think the boats need some "wow" factor if you're trying to get a wider audience. 

I get that the 50's were bloody quick and refined and amazing and jaw droppingly spectacular at 45 plus knots but to me they were just too small and too automated being sailed basically two up. I loved the 72's. Beasts!  and was a bit disappointed when they were going to 62's and then really disappointed that it ended up with 50's. Still, they were mighty cool and I can't imagine any reaction other than a collective groan if they went to monos. 

Manually controlled 100'ers of any shape or configuration with no stored power or hydraulics/pneumatics on 20 mile courses with strong nationality rules. 

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Appreciating that it won't happen I have given some thought to what I would select as the next AC boat. Since I really think the AC has always been a design competition first I favor a more open design, so for my money, this is what I would do:

 

1) 63' maximum LOA

2) 23' maximum beam

3) define the race course

4) wind speed 3-30kn

5) maximum significant wave height 6'

6) no stored power, all adjustments have to be made from instantaneous power (hydronic or mechanical transmission is ok)

7) maximum financial expendature is $100 million USD. With rolling audits by ACEA, as well as every team being able to privately pay for an additional audit at their own expense (not subject to the $100m limit) 

8) You can only have two sets of appendage designs. But you can built as many of them as you want subject to the financial cap.

Other than the above (subject to change at my whim) it's a run what you brung event. My guess is that we would see foiling cats with V or Z foils to keep the power demands down, wing sails, and low wind code zeros. But who knows someone might throw the ball really hard and find a monohull design that works too. 

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Does soft sails mean more sailors?

Will soft sails get them up on the foils?

I guess I want more sailors on board and more of a sailing race.

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I think whatever the next boat is there will be about as many people who are really disappointed as there are those that are elated at the choice.

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2 minutes ago, KoW said:

I think whatever the next boat is there will be about as many people who are really disappointed as there are those that are elated at the choice.

It will be 90-10 against, just like the last two times, but the boats will hopefully again prove good anyway in the end.

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3 hours ago, KoW said:

I think whatever the next boat is there will be about as many people who are really disappointed as there are those that are elated at the choice.

Damn straight! I reserve the right to be disappointed and angry even if they give me exactly what I want.

Speaking of which:

Image result for square rigged

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Image result for square rigged

Main that is a beautiful rig! (Probably doesn't have optimal upwind performance mind - and mark rounding could be a bitch)

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On 6/27/2017 at 10:26 AM, TN_Kiwi said:

My point in repyling to Doug was that it's pretty arrogant for Americans to think that people from other countries, who have their own long-established use of language for certain things, ought to change and adopt what sensitive American ears understand better. This is part of the whole American Exceptionalism culture. I have lived in the US for the last 30 years - I hear this myopic ignorance of other cultures all the time. I put up with it because I'm IN the US and choosing to live and work here, but for American 'sailors' and the 'sailing audience' to think Kiwis, Aussies, Brit's, etc, should change over and start referring to the sport as 'sailing' and the participants as 'sailors' (when they've grown up saying 'yachting' and 'yachtsmen/women') when talking to the (international) media at an international event that's not even being held on US territory is pretty rich.  Do you understand this at all?

Wholly fuck, Myopic, your country has such a closed immigration system that is can be compared to the Nazis along with the Aussies. You fricking racists.
As for Exceptionalism, YEA , we got that covered.
Fuck the AC, cause that is all you got, an old trophy known as the 100 pound cup. based on British whatever.

Do what you will, but will the world really care??? I doubt it.

Back to the Tour D France, which is really watched by millions and millions and millions.    :) 

 

Point said.

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Wholly fuck, Myopic, your country has such a closed immigration system that is can be compared to the Nazis along with the Aussies. You fricking racists.
As for Exceptionalism, YEA , we got that covered.
Fuck the AC, cause that is all you got, an old trophy known as the 100 pound cup. based on British whatever.

Do what you will, but will the world really care??? I doubt it.

Back to the Tour D France, which is really watched by millions and millions and millions.    :) 

 

Point said.

Then go and watch the cycling and stop fucking moaning about here. 

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3 hours ago, KoW said:

Main that is a beautiful rig! (Probably doesn't have optimal upwind performance mind - and mark rounding could be a bitch)

Yeah sure but imagine luffing or heaven forbid a tacking duel!

Might struggle to get it foiling with the 100+ required crew on board! :P

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On a downward run I wonder what this boat would do.  Even if it was doing 18 knots it would look  like it was moving slow. The Cutty Sark top speed was 17.5  knots

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5 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Wholly fuck, Myopic, your country has such a closed immigration system that is can be compared to the Nazis along with the Aussies. You fricking racists.
As for Exceptionalism, YEA , we got that covered.
Fuck the AC, cause that is all you got, an old trophy known as the 100 pound cup. based on British whatever.

Do what you will, but will the world really care??? I doubt it.

Back to the Tour D France, which is really watched by millions and millions and millions.    :) 

 

Point said.

A sport where nearly all competitors are on drugs !

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

Yeah sure but imagine luffing or heaven forbid a tacking duel!

Might struggle to get it foiling with the 100+ required crew on board! :P

Sail that big, beautiful bastard in Wellington. Then it'd take OR and more lead-in-the-night than you could shake a stick at to keep it from foiling...

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Foiling 5-masted square riggers... I feel the next A cup class is starting to come together - but we might need a few one design elements to keep the costs down - or perhaps only 2 sets of foils, whaddya reckon?

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4 hours ago, jaysper said:

Yeah sure but imagine luffing or heaven forbid a tacking duel!

Might struggle to get it foiling with the 100+ required crew on board! :P

Preussen - StateLibQld 70 73320.jpg
Preußen under full sail
 
 
I liked the Royal Clipper's ancestor better .. she was built in 1902 and could tack in a force 9 gale.

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Couple of points to make about the options.

first and foremost, the americas cup, post the hundred Guinness cup that started it all has been about course racing.  That has now basically evolved into windward leeward gates.  No reaching legs, no z legs (remember those?) just upwind and downwind.

if that is the accepted premise that immediately narrows down the boat plan types.  So vender type boats are a no go - they are reaching and broad reaching machines designed for powerful reaching and the new foil developments there are skimming, not fooling anyway.  In order for them to work windward leeward you would likely have the same job main combo, but maybe leave both foils down on the downwind leg and find some amazing software and actuators to get it steady while heading v,g but still being able to make tactical maneuvers such as lifting without crashing.

a trimaran, while they can be very effective as a short course boat, would essentially be a foil with a just big enough hull over it so that if you can't foil or crash down, you won't tip over.  The central hull becomes vestigial in that you will only win if it is out of the water, so we are basically back to the cats we have now, with a central structure that exists to support and end plate the rig.  So cats it is due to cost, known platform and prior experience.

ironically, That would also end up being the solution for any monohull rule that the box is wide enough to for the foils to be effective.  You either drag led, or you put foils out at max width.  Those are the options.  If monohull you end up with a 'monomaran' skinny hull and lead, or outriggers and foils (which if you go down that path, you are impeding the match racing and close quarters work (imaging going for the hook, against a DSS equipped skinny monohull.  Snap goes the foil and over goes the boat.   

So in my humble opinion, we will either continue with cats, but dial back to a wing mast and not so soft sails (mast only above x knots? That will get interesting) or they go back to course racing monohulls inside some kind of box or planform rule like iacc or 12m.   Either of those monohull options will end up a minimum skinny for low drag.  So it will be about foil assist, and if not, scow type hulll forms.

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Loose Cannon said:

Couple of points to make about the options.

first and foremost, the americas cup, post the hundred Guinness cup that started it all has been about course racing.  That has now basically evolved into windward leeward gates.  No reaching legs, no z legs (remember those?) just upwind and downwind.

if that is the accepted premise that immediately narrows down the boat plan types.  So vender type boats are a no go - they are reaching and broad reaching machines designed for powerful reaching and the new foil developments there are skimming, not fooling anyway.  In order for them to work windward leeward you would likely have the same job main combo, but maybe leave both foils down on the downwind leg and find some amazing software and actuators to get it steady while heading v,g but still being able to make tactical maneuvers such as lifting without crashing.

a trimaran, while they can be very effective as a short course boat, would essentially be a foil with a just big enough hull over it so that if you can't foil or crash down, you won't tip over.  The central hull becomes vestigial in that you will only win if it is out of the water, so we are basically back to the cats we have now, with a central structure that exists to support and end plate the rig.  So cats it is due to cost, known platform and prior experience.

ironically, That would also end up being the solution for any monohull rule that the box is wide enough to for the foils to be effective.  You either drag led, or you put foils out at max width.  Those are the options.  If monohull you end up with a 'monomaran' skinny hull and lead, or outriggers and foils (which if you go down that path, you are impeding the match racing and close quarters work (imaging going for the hook, against a DSS equipped skinny monohull.  Snap goes the foil and over goes the boat.   

So in my humble opinion, we will either continue with cats, but dial back to a wing mast and not so soft sails (mast only above x knots? That will get interesting) or they go back to course racing monohulls inside some kind of box or planform rule like iacc or 12m.   Either of those monohull options will end up a minimum skinny for low drag.  So it will be about foil assist, and if not, scow type hulll forms.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure you'd end up with something like the IACC boats if you went mono.  The fastest short course boats around now for the length are the TP52 / Fast 40 type.  If you decided that you wanted to go back to mono then something of that ilk would seem to be quite a decent option, would work fairly well in dial up match racing mode, but also look pretty good downwind when the breeze is up.  

I will say though that everything I've heard reported about TNZ statements before and since does give me some confidence that whatever kind of boat we get the next cup will be well worth following.  

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Time to go back to a mono with rules to encourage full foiling yacht to be developed like a scaled up foiling mini-transat (if it's possible given the weight).

 

2af476673ed23c4a07f0d3a1ebce6898_L.jpg

No more stupid stored energy hydraulics. Everyone onboard should need to be a sailor, not a gym monkey or a cyclist.

The boats should be able to have a long term sailing future both in racing and even cruising after their AC days are over just like the old 12 meters and the J's...

 I like that I see KA-11 Kookaburra racing in Melbourne and that in a few places in the world you can pay to race or get drunk on old 12 meter yachts.

The Youth America’s Cup should keep the AC45 and the AC45 world series should continue.

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4 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Time to go back to a mono with rules to encourage full foiling yacht to be developed like a scaled up foiling mini-transat (if it's possible given the weight).

 

2af476673ed23c4a07f0d3a1ebce6898_L.jpg

No more stupid stored energy hydraulics. Everyone onboard should need to be a sailor, not a gym monkey or a cyclist.

The boats should be able to have a long term sailing future both in racing and even cruising after their AC days are over just like the old 12 meters and the J's...

 I like that I see KA-11 Kookaburra racing in Melbourne and that in a few places in the world you can pay to race or get drunk on old 12 meter yachts.

The Youth America’s Cup should keep the AC45 and the AC45 world series should continue.

Perfect picture of the scow type monohull I described.   If the width is allowed to go wider and there is a ban on concave hulls it will look like a flying saucer.  If they allow concavity it will be skinny center hull, with the equivalent of amas and foils at max width

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1 hour ago, flaming2 said:

I'm not so sure you'd end up with something like the IACC boats if you went mono.  The fastest short course boats around now for the length are the TP52 / Fast 40 type.  If you decided that you wanted to go back to mono then something of that ilk would seem to be quite a decent option, would work fairly well in dial up match racing mode, but also look pretty good downwind when the breeze is up.  

I will say though that everything I've heard reported about TNZ statements before and since does give me some confidence that whatever kind of boat we get the next cup will be well worth following.  

Just curious, what sort of speeds are you seeing out of a TP52/Fast 40 in 10 knots of true wind? Upwind/downwind?.

Thanks.

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On 6/28/2017 at 7:49 PM, pacice said:

 

When Team NZ took KZ1 for it's first sail, Peter Blake was physically sailing rings around it with his tri Steinlager 3.

As DC said, KZ1 was a dog.

Spent some time with Russell Bowler (co-designer) in Bermuda hanging in the ETNZ base.  He said 'time to get that thing off the AKL waterfront!'

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5 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:
Preussen - StateLibQld 70 73320.jpg
she was built in 1902 and could tack in a force 9 gale.

it's tacking that monster in moderate air that's the real skill!

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7 hours ago, hoppy said:

Time to go back to a mono with rules to encourage full foiling yacht to be developed like a scaled up foiling mini-transat (if it's possible given the weight).

 

2af476673ed23c4a07f0d3a1ebce6898_L.jpg

No more stupid stored energy hydraulics. Everyone onboard should need to be a sailor, not a gym monkey or a cyclist.

The boats should be able to have a long term sailing future both in racing and even cruising after their AC days are over just like the old 12 meters and the J's...

 I like that I see KA-11 Kookaburra racing in Melbourne and that in a few places in the world you can pay to race or get drunk on old 12 meter yachts.

The Youth America’s Cup should keep the AC45 and the AC45 world series should continue.

 

Why do you want the AC boat to have a life after the race?

Do you expect a F1 car to be used to go buy your groceries? Or even a World Raly Championship car???

If we want the boats to be the pinacle of the technology and at the same time, ask to have them used after the race, it is too much of a constrain, IMHO.

 

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Can we get whatever boats to have designated numbers again? 

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4 hours ago, Laurent said:

 

Why do you want the AC boat to have a life after the race?

Do you expect a F1 car to be used to go buy your groceries? Or even a World Raly Championship car???

If we want the boats to be the pinacle of the technology and at the same time, ask to have them used after the race, it is too much of a constrain, IMHO.

 

Also these boats are formulated for upwind speed (IACC & 12 Meters) This tend to push them into thin, slab slided, pug nose, lead mines.  What use could they be in a after life.  Theres not enough room to put a cabin in there.  Team New Zealand has a whole silo of IACC hulls on the hard deck gathering dust.  The americas cup does not allow design compromises. What happens to these boats is always an afterthought. 

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12 hours ago, mako23 said:

Also these boats are formulated for upwind speed (IACC & 12 Meters) This tend to push them into thin, slab slided, pug nose, lead mines.  What use could they be in a after life.  Theres not enough room to put a cabin in there.  Team New Zealand has a whole silo of IACC hulls on the hard deck gathering dust.  The americas cup does not allow design compromises. What happens to these boats is always an afterthought. 

The IACC and 12m can be used for club racing and even cruising. Sure they aren't spacious below, but most old boats are pretty cramped.  

These IACC yachts are still in use (and for sale). All upgraded with diesel engines

probably used for club racing  http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/Iacc-Yacht-ITA-1-2976154/United-States#.WVzuy9OGNE4

Used for performance charter http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2003/Americas-Cup-Boats--2-NZL-81%2C-NZL-82-2373941/Mexico#.WVzvwtOGNE4

Both of these 12 meter have cruising interiors and engines.

American Eagle  http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1964/Luders-12-Meter-3097376/United-States#.WVzwzNOGNE4

Azzurra http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/65'-Americas-Cup-Yacht-12M-2949676/St.-Maarten-St.-Martin#.WVzxHtOGNE4

KA-11 Kookaburra is regularly club racing  

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4 hours ago, hoppy said:

The IACC and 12m can be used for club racing and even cruising. Sure they aren't spacious below, but most old boats are pretty cramped.  

These IACC yachts are still in use (and for sale). All upgraded with diesel engines

probably used for club racing  http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/Iacc-Yacht-ITA-1-2976154/United-States#.WVzuy9OGNE4

Used for performance charter http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2003/Americas-Cup-Boats--2-NZL-81%2C-NZL-82-2373941/Mexico#.WVzvwtOGNE4

Both of these 12 meter have cruising interiors and engines.

American Eagle  http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1964/Luders-12-Meter-3097376/United-States#.WVzwzNOGNE4

Azzurra http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/65'-Americas-Cup-Yacht-12M-2949676/St.-Maarten-St.-Martin#.WVzxHtOGNE4

KA-11 Kookaburra is regularly club racing  

hoppy thanks for those links. I would agree that the 12 meters have some after life due to there v type hulls allow a cabin below. On a side note ive sailed on American Eagle for an afternoon, it was a nice day. 

IACC boats can only be day racers and maybe charters. However the market for IACC charters is not that massive. Also as a day racer I think they have limits. The maintenance on these boats would be very high. They were not built for longevity in mind. Racing one of these off shore.......count me out. Day racing is all they are. As for NZL-81 NZl-82 I wouldnt touch them with a barge pole. These boats had issues even when. they were new. 

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Just had Peter Burling on the AM show on TV3, in NZ, when asked about what boat

Said there is no reason why the cats can't sail on Waitemata Harbour - We're been doing for the last 2 years.

The big disappointment is not being able to sail these boats (AC50's) for a while.

 

This is the biggest hint we have had out of ETNZ so far as to what boat we will have.

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1 hour ago, pacice said:

Just had Peter Burling on the AM show on TV3, in NZ, when asked about what boat

Said there is no reason why the cats can't sail on Waitemata Harbour - We're been doing for the last 2 years.

The big disappointment is not being able to sail these boats (AC50's) for a while.

 

This is the biggest hint we have had out of ETNZ so far as to what boat we will have.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2017/07/america-s-cup-2017-peter-burling-non-committal-on-offers-from-other-syndicates.html

 

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1 hour ago, Rskiff said:

Ok thanks for the link. The message I got out  from the video is that PB thinks AC50's are safe to use in the Hauraki Gulf. 

GD interview on radio station http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/1394320/Brad-Butterworth-and-his-bodyguard

Interesting point al the protocols are signed. Looks like ETNZ and Luna Rossa had this worked out way before the cup win. 

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52 minutes ago, mako23 said:

ETNZ and Luna Rossa had this worked out way before the cup win. 

No way! Despite all the incessant,  indignant howling and screaming about the other, but much more broad Framework agreement MoU? LMFAO! :D

Would be fun to revisit all the two-faced posts in those threads but they were so dumbassed even back then to not bother with. GD and P$B were far deeper into the (it would be DoG-illegal!) 'contemplating' of the next Challenge than anyone else was, just exactly as I was targeted for suggesting ;)

'Throw the ball as far as you can' ingenuity was at play here too, an explicit Protocol was quite obviously agreed many moons before the Win, or it would not been already-produced, to get signed.

The next hilarity will be how many of those same posters who ~praise~ all the coming Protocol changes.

That said, I am actually glad if GD understood the big tenets of the other Framework Agreement, especially the essential core of it which was all about continuity. He apparently did buy into all that greater meaning, mostly just couldn't handle the 2 yr turnaround.

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I posted this in the poll thread, but probably should've put it here:

If it were up to me, I'd keep the 50s in the short to medium term because they are so amazing and the racing was so epic, but amend the rules as follows:

1) Add a second smaller wing (also one design 3D shape) for the rougher conditions in NZ

2) Allow slightly larger accumulators, but limit the total power in Kw that could be expended by the crew during a race, just like they limit fuel consumption in F1. In other words, tame the 'hamster wheel' aspect.

3) Allow flaps on the primary lifting surface to both reduce energy expenditure (planes don't rotate the entire wing) and broaden the range.

4) Open up restrictions on rudder design and control so that teams would have a deep toolbox of options to prevent the boats from going ass over tea kettle.

But the future is probably trimarans, which can be designed for the earliest launch (onto the foils) thanks to a missile-like, fast gliding center hull, and which could isolate heave (lifting the entire package) from righting moment by combining a big central foil (heave) with independent foils on the amas (righting moment) a la Maserati. These could have extremely wide beam (IE tons of righting moment, so you could really power them up) with little of the PP risk of cats. The amas themselves would be just large enough to keep the things from falling over at the dock.

My 2 cents.

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GD lets slip the protocol was signed  before ETNZ had won. My guess it was signed during 2015 when ETNZ was having major money problems.  You have ETNZ broke and about to shut its doors and PB and Luna Rossa with billions.  Who do you think has the stronger platform to negotiate from ? ?  This during a period when the Italians are having a massive anti  foiling cat rant. 

Dalts saying we may check with Italians again .........seems to me code for please please no monohulls

 

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6 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

I posted this in the poll thread, but probably should've put it here:

If it were up to me, I'd keep the 50s in the short to medium term because they are so amazing and the racing was so epic, but amend the rules as follows:

1) Add a second smaller wing (also one design 3D shape) for the rougher conditions in NZ

2) Allow slightly larger accumulators, but limit the total power in Kw that could be expended by the crew during a race, just like they limit fuel consumption in F1. In other words, tame the 'hamster wheel' aspect.

3) Allow flaps on the primary lifting surface to both reduce energy expenditure (planes don't rotate the entire wing) and broaden the range.

4) Open up restrictions on rudder design and control so that teams would have a deep toolbox of options to prevent the boats from going ass over tea kettle.

But the future is probably trimarans, which can be designed for the earliest launch (onto the foils) thanks to a missile-like, fast gliding center hull, and which could isolate heave (lifting the entire package) from righting moment by combining a big central foil (heave) with independent foils on the amas (righting moment) a la Maserati. These could have extremely wide beam (IE tons of righting moment, so you could really power them up) with little of the PP risk of cats. The amas themselves would be just large enough to keep the things from falling over at the dock.

My 2 cents.

For my two cents I like ideas 3 and 4

From a safety perspective Id keep the Hamsters Id hate a a safety measure to fail because we ran out of energy

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Yes, I agree with most of Makos comments about LR.  Where will that leave ETNZ with the same money problems but without the Italians?

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3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

For my two cents I like ideas 3 and 4

From a safety perspective Id keep the Hamsters Id hate a a safety measure to fail because we ran out of energy

I disagree - the hamsters are dumb, and for sure with power limitations in place, the teams would find elegant and efficient solutions. Just to be clear, I'm not dissing the cyclors - they were way better looking than the grinders - but enough already. Time to move away from galley slaves at virtual carbon fibre oars.

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8 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Yes, I agree with most of Makos comments about LR.  Where will that leave ETNZ with the same money problems but without the Italians?

I suspect up shit creek without a paddle. I suspect ETNZ have a few problems here. PB is a old man he just wants to win before he leaves this earth. Its his chance to be a hero in Italy, and he will be a big hero if he wins. It will give him that status the his billions will never give him. He owns a status symbol company, a company that prides itself not being for the masses. A status symbol Americas cup will nicely in fit into the prada brand. To him AC50 cats are not exclusive enough. He will want the boats to go back to big size and status, for two reasons. Less competitors more chance he wins,  its a better marketing solution for prada. 

I guess in a couple of weeks well find what sort of deal GD signed 

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23 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

I disagree - the hamsters are dumb, and for sure with power limitations in place, the teams would find elegant and efficient solutions. Just to be clear, I'm not dissing the cyclors - they were way better looking than the grinders - but enough already. Time to move away from galley slaves at virtual carbon fibre oars.

Id happily get rid of hamsters and power storage, for the other safety changes

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

No way! Despite all the incessant,  indignant howling and screaming about the other, but much more broad Framework agreement MoU? LMFAO! :D

Would be fun to revisit all the two-faced posts in those threads but they were so dumbassed even back then to not bother with. GD and P$B were far deeper into the (it would be DoG-illegal!) 'contemplating' of the next Challenge than anyone else was, just exactly as I was targeted for suggesting ;)

'Throw the ball as far as you can' ingenuity was at play here too, an explicit Protocol was quite obviously agreed many moons before the Win, or it would not been already-produced, to get signed.

The next hilarity will be how many of those same posters who ~praise~ all the coming Protocol changes.

That said, I am actually glad if GD understood the big tenets of the other Framework Agreement, especially the essential core of it which was all about continuity. He apparently did buy into all that greater meaning, mostly just couldn't handle the 2 yr turnaround.

I think GD should be up for an academy award 

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On 6.7.2017 at 1:18 AM, ~Stingray~ said:

No way! Despite all the incessant,  indignant howling and screaming about the other, but much more broad Framework agreement MoU? LMFAO! :D

Would be fun to revisit all the two-faced posts in those threads but they were so dumbassed even back then to not bother with. GD and P$B were far deeper into the (it would be DoG-illegal!) 'contemplating' of the next Challenge than anyone else was, just exactly as I was targeted for suggesting ;)

'Throw the ball as far as you can' ingenuity was at play here too, an explicit Protocol was quite obviously agreed many moons before the Win, or it would not been already-produced, to get signed.

The next hilarity will be how many of those same posters who ~praise~ all the coming Protocol changes.

That said, I am actually glad if GD understood the big tenets of the other Framework Agreement, especially the essential core of it which was all about continuity. He apparently did buy into all that greater meaning, mostly just couldn't handle the 2 yr turnaround.

Neither ETNZ (RNZYS) nor LR (CVR) were defenders, so they can agree on protocols as much as they like during an AC with another defender.

Nothing to see here, move along...

What I am worried about is something different: The fact that defender and first challenger already know the terms of the game whereas the other potential challengers don't, may give them (def+1st chall) an undeserved headstart. 

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3 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Neither ETNZ (RNZYS) nor LR (CVR) were defenders, so they can agree on protocols as much as they like during an AC with another defender.

Nothing to see here, move along...

What I am worried about is something different: The fact that defender and first challenger already know the terms of the game whereas the other potential challengers don't, may give them (def+1st chall) an undeserved headstart. 

In the case of the open high-level 'Framework Agreement' (yes, the current Def was one of the signatories) there was at least a timeline, and some boat specs included.

In the pre-considered, pre-contemplated, already signed-to Protocol, we have no such details. Other teams presumably have no clue to what ETNZ and LR agreed to and, as you suggest, may be starting well in to, design-wise.

But since it's going to be such a long time cycle wise again, perhaps it's too early for much concern beyond for the sponsor-seekers looking to try achieve the same interim stability that GD already got.

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