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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

The Next Boat-----2020

820 posts in this topic

Photos and more at the link

--

A HIGHLY CHARGED DAY FOR GITANA TEAM

FOR 2017-2020 MAXI EDMOND DE ROTHSCHILD SÉBASTIEN JOSSE

Suspended from the crane, the carbon bird packs quite a punch. This emotional moment has been eagerly awaited by all those who have worked on her, not to mention those working in the background, in the big push to take offshore sailing into a whole new era. At 08:30 GMT this Monday, the first oceanic trimaran designed to fly offshore was launched in Vannes, south-west Brittany, under the proud gaze of her owners, Ariane and Benjamin de Rothschild, her designers and builders, and of course the whole of Gitana Team supporting skipper Sébastien Josse. It is 17.07.2017, the perfect date for the latest of five-arrow racing stable, which goes by the name of Gitana 17 for her christening ceremony. She's set to compete in a series of XXL maritime events, both in singlehanded and crewed configuration, under her race name, Maxi Edmond de Rothschild.

The public was also out in force, curious and enthralled about the opportunity to discover this unique boat, which is a precursor of the latest generation multihulls that plane and fly. Her sleek, ethereal forms as well as her appendages, all equipped with trim tabs (even the central daggerboard), are an invitation to voyage, at speed, along the long oceanic swell. Indeed, this maxi-trimaran embodies the offshore racing universe and that of foiling, which is predominantly practiced within harbours, as is the case in the America's Cup. In fact, it was Guillaume Verdier and his associates who worked in collaboration with the Gitana Team design office to create this new prototype. This French naval architect, who has just secured the silver ewer with the New Zealand team, was also behind the first foiling monohulls from the last Vendée Globe. This same challenge was also taken up by the Gitana Team in 2015-2016 with the Mono60 Edmond de Rothschild. Indeed, the ambition of flying offshore is part of a long-term strategy within the racing stable, as much in terms of research and development as on the water, where Sébastien Josse has been flying for a long while, on various craft. 

...

Guillaume Verdier, naval architect 
The initial idea was to design the first oceanic boat capable of flying with unfailing reliability. There are trim tabs on all the appendages. The central daggerboard has one too, a lifting surface in the form of a skate wing in order to increase stability still further when heeling and rolling. That is a huge amount for Sébastien (Josse) to trim. He's going to have to go at it in stages, learn how far is reasonable enough and also what hand to play when the seas are too heavy. There were 80 of us within Team New Zealand answering these questions. As such, we'll need to be patient and discuss ideas in depth to reveal the boat's true potential.

http://www.gitana-team.com/en/a-1257/a-highly-charged-day-for-gitana-team

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

Neither ETNZ (RNZYS) nor LR (CVR) were defenders, so they can agree on protocols as much as they like during an AC with another defender.

Nothing to see here, move along...

What I am worried about is something different: The fact that defender and first challenger already know the terms of the game whereas the other potential challengers don't, may give them (def+1st chall) an undeserved headstart. 

There is always an element of that Rennie and it is unavoidable.

The issue is if they take months to release the class spec like Ernie did in particular post '07 or change it like Lazza did last time.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

In the case of the open high-level 'Framework Agreement' (yes, the current Def was one of the signatories) there was at least a timeline, and some boat specs included.

In the pre-considered, pre-contemplated, already signed-to Protocol, we have no such details. Other teams presumably have no clue to what ETNZ and LR agreed to and, as you suggest, may be starting well in to, design-wise.

But since it's going to be such a long time cycle wise again, perhaps it's too early for much concern beyond for the sponsor-seekers looking to try achieve the same interim stability that GD already got.

Given it's looking like 4 years until the next cup I wouldn't think any early knowledge of the class is going to be that significant.  ETNZ certainly will not have spent much energy on it in the middle of winning the current cup.

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1 hour ago, Boybland said:

Given it's looking like 4 years until the next cup I wouldn't think any early knowledge of the class is going to be that significant.  ETNZ certainly will not have spent much energy on it in the middle of winning the current cup.

Your premise seems logical to me, however there is still the possibility that the italians have the right to decide what boat after giving ETNZ 30 million.   Nothing is for free

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5 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Your premise seems logical to me, however there is still the possibility that the italians have the right to decide what boat after giving ETNZ 30 million.  Nothing is for free

You're living proof that you can take a pom  out of pommie land but can't get the whinging part out of him! Hate to burst your bubble but you're caught up in the world of Team_GBR, Clean and all the other idiots over the mythical Euro30-mill number which no one has yet confirmed. CVS will have nominated the relevant dimensions of their vessel in their formal Challenge and will now be discussing and confirming with the Defender the technical design details of the AC36 yachts jn line with the Protocol and Class Rule. LR has no "right to decide" anything...

That village in Devon must be closing in on you!!

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6 minutes ago, Indio said:

You're living proof that you can take a pom  out of pommie land but can't get the whinging part out of him! Hate to burst your bubble but you're caught up in the world of Team_GBR, Clean and all the other idiots over the mythical Euro30-mill number which no one has yet confirmed. CVS will have nominated the relevant dimensions of their vessel in their formal Challenge and will now be discussing and confirming with the Defender the technical design details of the AC36 yachts jn line with the Protocol and Class Rule. LR has no "right to decide" anything...

That village in Devon must be closing in on you!!

Ok lets get some facts correct

Firstly I am a kiwi who lived in England for 13 years, Im also a ETNZ supporter

Secondly I said there was a POSSIBILITY, did not say it as a fact

Thirdly the only person stating an OPINION as FACTS is you

 

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2 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Ok lets get some facts correct

Firstly I am a kiwi who lived in England for 13 years, Im also a ETNZ supporter

Secondly I said there was a POSSIBILITY, did not say it as a fact

Thirdly the only person stating an OPINION as FACTS is you

 

And you're not claiming that "the Italians have the right to decide what boat after giving ETNZ 30 million. " as FACT?? That village are closing in...

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33 minutes ago, Indio said:

And you're not claiming that "the Italians have the right to decide what boat after giving ETNZ 30 million. " as FACT?? That village are closing in...

I said theres a possibilty.........The theory about the thirty million is not all hype....lets look at the facts that we do know

LR transferred staff to ETNZ

An ac45 was also given

Certain design technology was also given

Was cash given ??  some say yes, some say no.....The 30  Million figure often quoted might be value of the above listed technology  it might be cash.....who knows ?

Its not illogical to think some deal was struck

Most agree that part of the deal was LR becomes the official challenger

Some sources including Yachting world state  the design of the next boat was included

It might be true it might not.....however to say that theres a POSSIBILITY is not a crazy premise

I dont understand why you are so certain that no deal existed. If you have some inside knowledge please tell

 

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And yet you're the moron claiming as "facts" what clearly are NOT!

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GD has his indebted money ears so deep up P$B's ass, tens of $Millions deep, that it basically came down to what P$B already decided, and that GD already agreed to and self-admittedly already signed off on.

The rest of us haven't been told yet, unfortunately.

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9 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

GD has his indebted money ears so deep up P$B's ass, tens of $Millions deep, that it basically came down to what P$B already decided, and that GD already agreed to and self-admittedly already signed off on.

The rest of us haven't been told yet, unfortunately.

Theres a whole bunch of conjecture going on right there Stinger.

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On 7/17/2017 at 9:52 PM, ~Stingray~ said:

GD has his indebted money ears so deep up P$B's ass, tens of $Millions deep, that it basically came down to what P$B already decided, and that GD already agreed to and self-admittedly already signed off on.

The rest of us haven't been told yet, unfortunately.

5959e58b74bda_DaltsCup.jpg.7b70bd65e7c5071b2de97e2e176c1da2.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

And yet you're the moron claiming as "facts" what clearly are NOT!

Ok ive been very polite for a long time patiently trying to explain my position as a possibility. I dont know how many times I said the word "possibility" I even put into capitals. However your thick as shit brains cannot comprehend basic simple english. If you took less time masturbating over your keyboard and reading posts you human question mark you might find that people will respond to you better. 

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13 minutes ago, mako23 said:

This is clearly a racist post, I dont know what rock you crawled out from. As a follow Kiwi im doubled shocked. Ive seen sad bad post in this forum but this is the worse by a long way.  I hope my follow Kiwis even the ones who disagree with me on everything will still state what a horrifying post you have made. I dont mind admiting im shocked beyond belief. By the way Ive reported you to the forum admin over this post.

Not worth reporting cos he is a total dickhead, but certainly worth putting him on your ignore list - I certainly have.

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Just now, jaysper said:

Not worth reporting cos he is a total dickhead, but certainly worth putting him on your ignore list - I certainly have.

Yes you are correct, Im must admit im really quite shocked, thanks for replying

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Just now, mako23 said:

Yes you are correct, Im must admit im really quite shocked, thanks for replying

Oh Spindio gets a more interesting than that.

To be fair, it is anarchy and so shocking is the language du jour around here, so best to develop a thicker skin.

I have him (or her) on ignore simply because its all noise and no signal.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

GD has his indebted money ears so deep up P$B's ass, tens of $Millions deep, that it basically came down to what P$B already decided, and that GD already agreed to and self-admittedly already signed off on.

The rest of us haven't been told yet, unfortunately.

None of that matters. They are winners. They don't have to tell anyone anything until they feel like it. I hope they take their time to celebrate this demolition of Oracle and their 5 poodles, celebrate the momentous occasion, because to win the Cup is victory enough, but to do it in such emphatic fashion, with next to no chance of winning in a 5 on 1 Kobayashi Maru scenario (a Star Trek reference). Even Captain Kirk would be proud! so I hope they take a well deserved break, take a few selfies with the cup if they must, and come back ready to demolish them all over again in 4 years (or whenever you see fit to host it). No one needs to know anything, especially not in the first couple of weeks after the victory. The details for the next cycle are need to know. And right now, no one needs to know. 

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13 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Oh Spindio gets a more interesting than that.

To be fair, it is anarchy and so shocking is the language du jour around here, so best to develop a thicker skin.

I have him (or her) on ignore simply because its all noise and no signal.

I've got a thick skin (I was a cop for 4 years) and I'm a wind up merchant. I guess Indio must not be well, or something is very wrong with the guy. Hes on my ignore list

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11 minutes ago, sclarke said:

None of that matters. They are winners. They don't have to tell anyone anything until they feel like it. I hope they take their time to celebrate this demolition of Oracle and their 5 poodles, celebrate the momentous occasion, because to win the Cup is victory enough, but to do it in such emphatic fashion, with next to no chance of winning in a 5 on 1 Kobayashi Maru scenario (a Star Trek reference). Even Captain Kirk would be proud! so I hope they take a well deserved break, take a few selfies with the cup if they must, and come back ready to demolish them all over again in 4 years (or whenever you see fit to host it). No one needs to know anything, especially not in the first couple of weeks after the victory. The details for the next cycle are need to know. And right now, no one needs to know. 

What ever our differences, I can happily say you are correct when you said "they don't have to tell anyone anything until they feel like

The spoils of war and being a winner

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

GD has his indebted money ears so deep up P$B's ass, tens of $Millions deep, that it basically came down to what P$B already decided, and that GD already agreed to and self-admittedly already signed off on.

The rest of us haven't been told yet, unfortunately.

Are you enjoying yourself :)

 

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

Ok ive been very polite for a long time patiently trying to explain my position as a possibility. I dont know how many times I said the word "possibility" I even put into capitals. However your thick as shit brains cannot comprehend basic simple english. If you took less time masturbating over your keyboard and reading posts you human question mark you might find that people will respond to you better. 

You're the dumbass claiming the Italians as "giving ETNZ 30 million" as fact! And I know you'll unignore this post - like Jason and spinbot, you just can't keep away from my posts :lol:

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12 hours ago, mako23 said:

Are you enjoying yourself :)

 

:)

Has this one been posted yet? Not sure how accurate the Gtran is, but here's from the top part of http://www.tipandshaft.com/americas-cup/franck-cammas-mon-objectif-reste-la-coupe/

---

17 Jul Franck Cammas: "My goal remains the Cup"
In America's Cup by admin
Returning from Bermuda at the end of June, Franck Cammas sailed in Flying Phantom on the Emerald Raid (18th place with Bérénice Delpuech), met companies in Aix-en-Provence and tested the new Nacra 17 foils in the Netherlands. In short, faithful to its reputation, the skipper of Groupama Team France does not hesitate. He nevertheless found time to evoke Tip & Shaft the 35th America's Cup, the next and his immediate projects.

What inspired you to win Emirates Team New Zealand?
They identified the priorities on the boat very early and they went through all the technical steps they took. When we looked at all the details of their boat, they were consistent with a vision that was decided early on, and that was right, especially on energy management and boat controls. We really feel that it was an overall approach and not an approach by pragmatism, by reactions, as could very well do Oracle which has a great capacity of reaction.

You obviously read the words of their boss, Matteo de Nora, who accused Groupama Team France of having refused and then tried to cash in on their capsizing, what do you have to say about this?
We replied, there is nothing else to say. Afterwards, rumors about the Cup, there are millions. The same people accused us two years earlier of receiving a check from Oracle to vote in favor of changes in the rules and size of the boat, we heard green and ripe steps! So it's not surprising to see these rumors come out, which are obviously false and not verified. We're in the air of the fake news and it's not up to the journalists to keep them up [oddly, the article in question has been removed from the New Zealand Herald website]. And obviously, we did not receive a penny from Oracle throughout our campaign. The decisions we took, we took them in the interests of Groupama Team France.

Still you were necessarily favorable to a victory of Oracle Team USA ...
That we had good relations with the other challengers, except Team New Zealand unfortunately, everyone knows, since we signed in January an agreement for the organization of the next two editions of the Cup. We have a common vision of the future, we fight to continue in AC50, and not only in a selfish way for Groupama Team France. I think that a change of boat can be a technical return, but also in terms of show and opening to the general public. Some see the Cup with another vision, much more traditional, more "yachting": if this is the path followed, I think the Cup will lose the leadership side it has for sailing in general. Many series have followed the evolution of the America's Cup: we see the Nacra flying that will make the Olympics in Tokyo, the World Match Racing Tour, passed in catamaran, almost all the international professional circuits, apart from the TP52, Are on multihulls, flying often, all that was born of the Cup in 2013. The young people dream now of sailing on these boats, it gave a real blow of young and boost to the sail and it is good that It is the America's Cup, a very old trophy, that shows this modernity.

If the New Zealanders opt for this backward step, would you still be interested in continuing?
It would interest me even more, in the sense that it will be necessary to bring it back to the right way! Afterwards, I always want to sail against the best and my goal remains to bring back the Cup. But in parallel, I would not be against finding a way to continue to sail the AC50s on an international circuit, it is important not to lose this capital.

This idea of creating an international circuit, where is it in concrete terms?
There, I will say no more! After all, we must know that we, the five teams of the Framework Agreement, have signed an agreement that prohibits us from participating in a Cup other than the one we have imagined together with AC50s. We will not forget an agreement we signed six months ago ...

Does this mean that if the 36th Cup does not meet this accreditation, none of you will be participating?
I invite you to read the accreditation, but why not? We are forbidden to do so, with anticipated financial penalties ... But let's wait! Team New Zealand now has the technical approval, the gauge we have imagined for six months. Moreover, it is surprising to find that they criticized him as much as they asked us three weeks ago because they had not read a line ...

Today, what becomes of Groupama Team France?
We are working on the priority of the moment, which is to find partners ...

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17 hours ago, mako23 said:

I said theres a possibilty.........The theory about the thirty million is not all hype....lets look at the facts that we do know

LR transferred staff to ETNZ

An ac45 was also given

Certain design technology was also given

Was cash given ??  some say yes, some say no.....The 30  Million figure often quoted might be value of the above listed technology  it might be cash.....who knows ?

Its not illogical to think some deal was struck

Most agree that part of the deal was LR becomes the official challenger

Some sources including Yachting world state  the design of the next boat was included

It might be true it might not.....however to say that theres a POSSIBILITY is not a crazy premise

I dont understand why you are so certain that no deal existed. If you have some inside knowledge please tell

 

Certain design technology was also given?  How about the technology that allowed GA trim his boat with an X-box control and not a rope?  :lol:

How about crucial design technology was also given?  So crucial that LR gets a big say in more than just the type of boat for AC36.  Thats my guess.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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  ^^

I have to admit grudgingly that Onorato is quite a good sailor: this year he won the Middle Sea Race and recently the ORC championship - but with a Cookson 50, that (or a Farr 40 or a Melges 32) is his limit, both technically and financially. He was only able to enter the AC because of the golden moment of mobile operators entering the market, that's long gone. In fact, he says "it really depends on what the Kiwis will decide. If it's monos, not huge, that put a premium on seafaring art, I'll do my utmost to be there". 

His son rather liked cats, though :D

 

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From the Cammas interview above, is this part of the translation accurate?

--

This idea of creating an international circuit, where is it in concrete terms?

There, I will say no more! After all, we must know that we, the five teams of the Framework Agreement, have signed an agreement that prohibits us from participating in a Cup other than the one we have imagined together with AC50s. We will not forget an agreement we signed six months ago ...

Does this mean that if the 36th Cup does not meet this accreditation, none of you will be participating?

I invite you to read the accreditation, but why not? We are forbidden to do so, with anticipated financial penalties.

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12 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

From the Cammas interview above, is this part of the translation accurate?

--

This idea of creating an international circuit, where is it in concrete terms?

There, I will say no more! After all, we must know that we, the five teams of the Framework Agreement, have signed an agreement that prohibits us from participating in a Cup other than the one we have imagined together with AC50s. We will not forget an agreement we signed six months ago ...

Does this mean that if the 36th Cup does not meet this accreditation, none of you will be participating?

I invite you to read the accreditation, but why not? We are forbidden to do so, with anticipated financial penalties.

Stingray,

Pretty accurate translation.

I would say litteraly " I wouldn't dump in the dungeon the agreement we signed 6 months ago" ,instead of "we will not forget an agreement we signed 6 months ago"

Replace "accreditation" by "framework agreement".

Cammas then went to blast NZ for complaining about the technical agreement (gauge or dimensions of the boat) while never having read the agreement before.

In this case, I think Cammas is mixing a few things. NZ was against the agreement of keeping the same boat for multiple AC. The fact that NZ ask for the gauge is completely separate issue. you dont have to read the gauge to be against keeping the same boat for multiple AC.

Sounds like Groupama insurance group and Norauto are continuing to sponsor the team for the next AC. Even if they will need more money and sponsors.

DDA

 

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36 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

From the Cammas interview above, is this part of the translation accurate?

--

This idea of creating an international circuit, where is it in concrete terms?

There, I will say no more! After all, we must know that we, the five teams of the Framework Agreement, have signed an agreement that prohibits us from participating in a Cup other than the one we have imagined together with AC50s. We will not forget an agreement we signed six months ago ...

Does this mean that if the 36th Cup does not meet this accreditation, none of you will be participating?

I invite you to read the accreditation, but why not? We are forbidden to do so, with anticipated financial penalties.

Cela veut-il dire que si la 36e Coupe ne correspond pas à cet agrément, aucun de vous cinq n’y participera ?
Je vous invite à lire l’agrément, mais pourquoi pas ? Il nous est interdit de le faire, avec des pénalités financières prévues… Mais attendons ! Team New Zealand a désormais l’agrément technique entre les mains, à savoir la jauge que nous avons imaginée depuis six mois. D’ailleurs, c’est étonnant de constater qu’ils l’ont autant critiquée alors qu’ils nous l’ont demandée il y a trois semaines, parce qu’ils n’en avaient pas lu une ligne…

Does it mean that if AC36 does not meet this agreement, none of you will participate ?

I invite you tor ead the agreeement, why not ? It forbids us to do so, with financial penalties...

But wait ! TNZ now has the technical part of the agreement in their hands, I mean the rule that we imagined 6 months ago. BTW, strange that they criticized it so much while they ask it 3 weeks ago, as they had not read a line....

 

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30 minutes ago, dbeauvar said:

Cammas then went to blast NZ for complaining about the technical agreement (gauge or dimensions of the boat) while never having read the agreement before.

In this case, I think Cammas is mixing a few things. NZ was against the agreement of keeping the same boat for multiple AC. The fact that NZ ask for the gauge is completely separate issue. you dont have to read the gauge to be against keeping the same boat for multiple AC.

 

To clarify: FC says ETNZ asked to see the "new" AC50 Rule (the one the five "London" teams had agreed on for AC36/37 had one of them won) just three weeks ago - so he's criticizing them for having rejected something without having read it

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Is Cammas referring to an AC50 'V2' boat spec 'imagined 6 months ago' that teams have seen, but that we here have not seen?

Edit, thanks Xlot, sounds like it

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14 minutes ago, Xlot said:

 

To clarify: FC says ETNZ asked to see the "new" AC50 Rule (the one the five "London" teams had agreed on for AC36 had one of them won) just three weeks ago - so he's criticizing them for having rejected something without having read it

 

My understanding was NZ didnt want to continue on those AC50, or not set some rules locking the boat design for the next 2 (or more) AC events.

NZ wanted to stay with the standard rules which allow the defender to do whatever they want (as long as challenger agree).

 

With Cammas saying there are financial penalties if they participate in the next AC on different boat, he is trying to put pressure on NZ to keep the AC50 boats. However, I wonder if those penalties would hold on in a lawsuit.

I assume ACEA would sue the french (or any of the 5 signatory teams) if they race in the next AC on different boat. Would it hold in court?

Regards,

DDA

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I quite like the idea of one challenger and one defender, as far as I know the kiwis signed nothing so all the snowflakes can go and piss in the wind.

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If there's anything encouraging about all this, perhaps it is that ETNZ asked for the proposed NextGen AC50 Design. Maybe it is only for a cursory consideration but it's good (for those 5 potential teams anyway) that ETNZ has apparently not completely dismissed the idea and will presumably put some careful thought to it.

Am surprised they didn't have it already; FC assumes they did but he may be mistaken on that point.

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If ACEA can use the London Coup document to fine rebel AC teams who want to race in AC36, I wonder if the new Trustee can use the disrepute clause and the secret tribunal in the AC35 Protocol :lol:

Go ETNZ

No one expects 'The Inquisition'...

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Muscle flex between the defender and would be challengers to chose the boat.

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22 minutes ago, nav said:

If ACEA can use the London Coup document to fine rebel AC teams who want to race in AC36, I wonder if the new Trustee can use the disrepute clause and the secret tribunal in the AC35 Protocol :lol:

Go ETNZ

No one expects 'The Inquisition'...

Where does 'ACEA' come into it? Looks to me like it is a co-agreement between just teams, maybe including their sponsors.

 

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Just now, ~Stingray~ said:

Where does 'ACEA' come into it? Looks to me like it is a co-agreement between just teams, maybe including their sponsors.

 

Right, i don't think ACEA has anything to do with thout, at least it was not mentioned by Cammas.

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Not so much ACEA. I guess the French could sue any of the other teams that agreed to a match under different rules

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9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Muscle flex between the defender and would be challengers to chose the boat.

Agreed but with their investments in AC50 boats and technology it's possible they actually will go off on a separate path. 

With $B's in support just about anything is feasible for them, including a far more lucrative racing circuit than what AC36 down in Auckland might be.

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I am no lawyer, but if the teams have entered into an agreement outside of the protocol, surely that agreement is binding. A deal is a deal. If they have agreed between themselves not to compete if the cup isn't sailed under certain conditions, and one team does, the others can go after that team for penalty which Cammas suggests was included in the agreement. Do you think that Ellison would let that pass? He loves going to court and is spiteful enough to do it. The big question is how much that agreed penalty is. If it's say $500,000, no real problem because that is a peanut figure compared with a cup budget but what if it is $5m or $10m or more. That would finish off at least one campaign, maybe more.

It seems like we are now entering a big game of poker. Will the 5 teams stick together and will ETNZ risk losing all the other existing teams. The AC with ETNZ, LR and the rest being all new teams would really devalue the next edition, because the one thing that has been shown over the years is that it needs experience to stand any chance. There has only ever been 1 first time winner and NZers on here keep reminding us that was only possible by "buying" a winning team, which certainly won't be for sale this time.

I am also pretty shocked that it seems like Dalton rejected something without even knowing what was being rejected. I could understand him looking at a proposal and deciding it wasn't something he wanted to support, but to totally dismiss even the idea of an agreement without knowing what it was seems deliberately antagonistic.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Cela veut-il dire que si la 36e Coupe ne correspond pas à cet agrément, aucun de vous cinq n’y participera ?
Je vous invite à lire l’agrément, mais pourquoi pas ? Il nous est interdit de le faire, avec des pénalités financières prévues… Mais attendons ! Team New Zealand a désormais l’agrément technique entre les mains, à savoir la jauge que nous avons imaginée depuis six mois. D’ailleurs, c’est étonnant de constater qu’ils l’ont autant critiquée alors qu’ils nous l’ont demandée il y a trois semaines, parce qu’ils n’en avaient pas lu une ligne…

Does it mean that if AC36 does not meet this agreement, none of you will participate ?

I invite you tor ead the agreeement, why not ? It forbids us to do so, with financial penalties...

But wait ! TNZ now has the technical part of the agreement in their hands, I mean the rule that we imagined 6 months ago. BTW, strange that they criticized it so much while they ask it 3 weeks ago, as they had not read a line....

 

Cammas needs to go see a shrink or go and lie down under a palm tree somewhere - preferably away from any communications media!! Why he thinks the framework agreement is enforceable against them only when BAR has probably already lodged a challenge for AC36 if ridiculous. In any event, I'd like to see whoever tries to enforce this cartel agreement in the London courts :lol:

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The 'deliberately antagonistic' may have had a big dose of Italian behind it :) de Noro and Bertelli both being primary decision makers here.

Sure would be interesting to see the agreement signed. Not only for the financial commitment made (including whatever penalties) but also to see if designers and sailors of those syndicates are tied in - not to mention the sponsors of those syndicates.

If it's all pretty loose then syndicates might simply rename and enter anyway.. assuming they actually wanted to.

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26 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Where does 'ACEA' come into it? Looks to me like it is a co-agreement between just teams, maybe including their sponsors.

 

 

2 hours ago, dbeauvar said:

 

My understanding was NZ didnt want to continue on those AC50, or not set some rules locking the boat design for the next 2 (or more) AC events.

NZ wanted to stay with the standard rules which allow the defender to do whatever they want (as long as challenger agree).

 

With Cammas saying there are financial penalties if they participate in the next AC on different boat, he is trying to put pressure on NZ to keep the AC50 boats. However, I wonder if those penalties would hold on in a lawsuit.

I assume ACEA would sue the french (or any of the 5 signatory teams) if they race in the next AC on different boat. Would it hold in court?

Regards,

DDA

 

But since you missed the main point....

48 minutes ago, nav said:

If Cammas thinks anyone can use the London Coup document to fine rebel AC teams who want to race in AC36, I wonder if he is worried that new Trustee might use the disrepute clause in the AC35 Protocol (which was amended 4 months ago to include future ACs) and the secret tribunal - against the 'World's best clowns' in the AC RC50 Flying Circus :lol::blink:

Go ETNZ

No one expects 'The Inquisition'...

 

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22 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

The AC with ETNZ, LR and the rest being all new teams would really devalue the next edition

Unless they go J Class, which could attract some monied syndicates? Money-sniffer extraordinaire GD did mention 'noticing' the money among the J owners in Bermuda, during his post-win presser.

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12 minutes ago, Indio said:

Cammas needs to go see a shrink or go and lie down under a palm tree somewhere - preferably away from any communications media!! Why he thinks the framework agreement is enforceable against them only when BAR has probably already lodged a challenge for AC36 if ridiculous. In any event, I'd like to see whoever tries to enforce this cartel agreement in the London courts :lol:

You need to lie down, take deep breaths and think before posting. If BAR had been successful in making the challenge, they would have specified the size of boat in the challenge and would then have negotiated the protocol. The defender cannot force a type of boat onto the challenger. Trying to make a challenge was the best way of attempting to get the type of boat they wanted. 

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^ you need to study more carefully, Indio is saying what is GTF going on about, if the 'architects' of the document in question have themselves indicated that they in tend to participate in AC36!?

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BAR and others will do whatever is most lucrative. It's possible that AC36 would somehow prove to be the best path but even with the 'AC History' brand NZ has a monetary mountain to climb if they are to compete with whatever big-wads the likes of TT and LE have to blow, should they amuse themselves to, broadcast-wise and all.

I'm fine with both events happening if it does go this way since why not? More racing to follow, double the amusement. Best may actually be if the syndicates re-agree to instead do both.

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Any guesses how many hours from now the NZ media jump all over this and slag these potential AC50 syndicates? The NZ Herald did pull the FU GTF article (Cammas was right) but will it keep the media from now taking knives to all 5 collectively, or will they realize that insulting the wishes of these potential syndicates signals just another aggressively unfriendly message that runs counter to a decent invitation?

I bet it does make NZ news soon, flavored somehow.

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

Cammas needs to go see a shrink or go and lie down under a palm tree somewhere - preferably away from any communications media!! Why he thinks the framework agreement is enforceable against them only when BAR has probably already lodged a challenge for AC36 if ridiculous. In any event, I'd like to see whoever tries to enforce this cartel agreement in the London courts :lol:

If you read between the lines the whole article, Cammas makes 3 points:

1) He is more willing than ever to win the AC to put it back to the "fastest boat" if it doesn't happen to be the case

2) The 5 are linked by an agreement with financial penalties

3) If the AC goes back to a slow mono they could very well have another much more attractive event.

IMO, pretty clear that there will be no financial consequences, but they could very well launch a competitive event with 50 kts foilers if TNZ caves in to Italian wishes or dictat.

 

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The interesting part of this for me is that it appears the Kiwis weren't even given all of the necessary docs to form a complete view on the London Framework.  The rhetoric at the time was that they refused to play ball, but it seems like that may have been backwards and they were deliberately excluded (or at least only given partial details).

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What kind of idiot would you have to be to sign an agreement that would prevent you from competing if the class of boat changed.

Pretty sure given the amounts of money involved and the amount of lawyering going on nobody would have signed an agreement that prevented them from competing if ETNZ won and changed the boat.

Given it was clearly voluntary to sign, who would possibly be that stupd...

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On 6/26/2017 at 11:37 PM, Tornado-Cat said:

 

jacques_vabre_4350-1024x683.jpg

on that note I wonder if they plan on trying to put lifting foils on comanche. that would be a hell of a sight to see. wonder if the hull structure could take the load. 

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Any guesses how many hours from now the NZ media jump all over this and slag these potential AC50 syndicates? The NZ Herald did pull the FU GTF article (Cammas was right) but will it keep the media from now taking knives to all 5 collectively, or will they realize that insulting the wishes of these potential syndicates signals just another aggressively unfriendly message that runs counter to a decent invitation?

I bet it does make NZ news soon, flavored somehow.

In the words of Grant Dalton "Inventing your own cup won't work, this is the Americas Cup, this is the oldest sporting trophy in the world, this has got history, you can not replace it"  

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Isn't it funny that the Oracle fans who were once so obsessed with the future of the event, and making it sustainable for the future, we want to think ahead to make the Americas Cup a great event in the future, and the Framework Agreement is the way forward for the Americas Cup blah blah blah are suddenly now not even interested in the Americas Cup and now want the Bermuda 5 to think up some AC50 competition to replace it. Was the Oracle vision the only way forward, or was it something that the Oracle fanboys got sucked into thinking? I'm thinking the latter. The Americas Cup is/ was and always will be sustainable by name alone, and thats the way it should stay.

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2 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Isn't it funny that the Oracle fans who were once so obsessed with the future of the event, and making it sustainable for the future, we want to think ahead to make the Americas Cup a great event in the future, and the Framework Agreement is the way forward for the Americas Cup blah blah blah are suddenly now not even interested in the Americas Cup and now want the Bermuda 5 to think up some AC50 competition to replace it. Was the Oracle vision the only way forward, or was it something that the Oracle fanboys got sucked into thinking? I'm thinking the latter. The Americas Cup is/ was and always will be sustainable by name alone, and thats the way it should stay.

While I agree with your comments about Oracle fanboys, I think you are missing something important.The "Oracle Vision" was never really theirs. There is little difference between Larry Vision and Ernesto Vision, but the most interesting thing is that it actually fitted with what many other teams actually wanted, which is stability. What makes the cup a tough gig is the uncertainty. The only teams to overcome that uncertainty have been ones with "B's" providing the cash to indulge an obsession and ETNZ, the only team to have managed to survive through long term sponsorship. The most growth in the AC has come at times of relative stability, where the rules had stayed consistent. The IACC era was an example of that, as was the latter part of the 12 era. It therefore shouldn't come as a surprise that existing teams were keen to get some stability in the design and protocol. It has always had least entries when the boats have changed coupled with the whole protocol. It will be interesting to see how ETNZ manages this situation. I see the biggest risks at the moment is that we will see a small number of entries, or a only a very few with any chance and a load of no-hopers.

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1 minute ago, A Class Sailor said:

While I agree with your comments about Oracle fanboys, I think you are missing something important.The "Oracle Vision" was never really theirs. There is little difference between Larry Vision and Ernesto Vision, but the most interesting thing is that it actually fitted with what many other teams actually wanted, which is stability. What makes the cup a tough gig is the uncertainty. The only teams to overcome that uncertainty have been ones with "B's" providing the cash to indulge an obsession and ETNZ, the only team to have managed to survive through long term sponsorship. The most growth in the AC has come at times of relative stability, where the rules had stayed consistent. The IACC era was an example of that, as was the latter part of the 12 era. It therefore shouldn't come as a surprise that existing teams were keen to get some stability in the design and protocol. It has always had least entries when the boats have changed coupled with the whole protocol. It will be interesting to see how ETNZ manages this situation. I see the biggest risks at the moment is that we will see a small number of entries, or a only a very few with any chance and a load of no-hopers.

Well, it will absolutely answer one question...were the teams who competed in the Americas Cup in Bermuda truly there to win the Americas Cup? Or were they there to help Oracle retain? If they were there to win the Americas Cup, as any Americas Cup team should be, then they would do what they have to and come to New Zealand to try and win it back. If they don't turn up, it would certainly be an admission that they were only there to help Oracle retain, and not to win the cup for themselves, and that has to disappoint sponsors, supporters and fans alike. The sole aim of any Americas Cup team should be to win the Americas Cup, not help someone else win because you made a deal with them. If those teams were truthful in wanting to win the Americas Cup, then we will have at least the same number of teams in this cycle.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Well, it will absolutely answer one question...were the teams who competed in the Americas Cup in Bermuda truly there to win the Americas Cup? Or were they there to help Oracle retain? If they were there to win the Americas Cup, as any Americas Cup team should be, then they would do what they have to and come to New Zealand to try and win it back. If they don't turn up, it would certainly be an admission that they were only there to help Oracle retain, and not to win the cup for themselves, and that has to disappoint sponsors, supporters and fans alike. The sole aim of any Americas Cup team should be to win the Americas Cup, not help someone else win because you made a deal with them. If those teams were truthful in wanting to win the Americas Cup, then we will have at least the same number of teams in this cycle.

That is a complete load of ignorant shit. Whether a team returns depends on a lot of factors, some of which will be in the protocol and some of which are pure economics. For instance, if you listened to Dalton last time, he said that location makes a big difference to sponsors. The type of boat is another factor. I am not sure that Artemis will be back if the nationality rule is too onerous because to Tornqvist, it has become all about the people he has been on this journey with and you cannot accuse them of not being in it to win it. BAR hasn't got any sponsorship as of now. Who knows if they can raise enough, yet anybody who has been paying attention would know that Ainslie is obsessed with the cup which is why he sailed with 3 different teams including TNZ so as to learn his craft. He will do all he can to be in it the next time, but he might not raise enough money. 

Even SBTJ who were the most likely poodle will have real issues if the nationality rule hits them too hard. They do not have the sailors to put together a campaign of any credibility.

Check your history as to how many teams carry on between each edition. Are you saying that throughout recent times, most teams have entered but weren't really interested in winning?

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5 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

That is a complete load of ignorant shit. Whether a team returns depends on a lot of factors, some of which will be in the protocol and some of which are pure economics. For instance, if you listened to Dalton last time, he said that location makes a big difference to sponsors. The type of boat is another factor. I am not sure that Artemis will be back if the nationality rule is too onerous because to Tornqvist, it has become all about the people he has been on this journey with and you cannot accuse them of not being in it to win it. BAR hasn't got any sponsorship as of now. Who knows if they can raise enough, yet anybody who has been paying attention would know that Ainslie is obsessed with the cup which is why he sailed with 3 different teams including TNZ so as to learn his craft. He will do all he can to be in it the next time, but he might not raise enough money. 

Even SBTJ who were the most likely poodle will have real issues if the nationality rule hits them too hard. They do not have the sailors to put together a campaign of any credibility.

Check your history as to how many teams carry on between each edition. Are you saying that throughout recent times, most teams have entered but weren't really interested in winning?

The only thing it depends on is whether they have enough drive, and enough passion, and enough respect within their given industry to allow continuity. Yes, location makes a huge difference, but if you look at the location which was chosen this time, and all the difficulties surrounding it, Emirates, the naming sponsor chose to stay with ETNZ, even though the location was far from advantageous to them in any way. BAR have confirmed sponsorship from Land Rover and will be a part of the next cup. Look at the team ETNZ assembled. Two key members hadn't set foot on a sail boat before this Americas Cup, let alone sailed in a cup match. 4 key members of the ETNZ sailing crew were AC rookies, including the helmsman. The skipper was on only his second AC campaign, but yet these guys went out, against a ridiculously stacked deck, and demolished all opposition. All this after being publicly attacked and humiliated by the defender, and almost shut down. They won not because they had Americas Cup stars, or a huge budget like other teams, but because they are passionate, committed, innovative and willing to take risks. Its not about having superstar sailors. Its about knowing what you want to achieve and doing what needs to be done to achieve it. Look at the French, they have a lot more multihull experience then ETNZ, (or anyone for that matter) has and should by rights be a top contender, but their focus remains largely in offshore sailing and other regattas like the GC32. If they focus on winning the Americas Cup, they just may collect better results.

I'm saying, persistance pays off, ETNZ proved that. The thing is, most teams tend to buy success, not make success. Where ETNZ have won 3 times because they have made their own success, using Kiwi sailors (and one Aussie) and using Kiwi innovation and skill. 

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10 hours ago, dbeauvar said:

 

My understanding was NZ didnt want to continue on those AC50, or not set some rules locking the boat design for the next 2 (or more) AC events.

NZ wanted to stay with the standard rules which allow the defender to do whatever they want (as long as challenger agree).

 

With Cammas saying there are financial penalties if they participate in the next AC on different boat, he is trying to put pressure on NZ to keep the AC50 boats. However, I wonder if those penalties would hold on in a lawsuit.

I assume ACEA would sue the french (or any of the 5 signatory teams) if they race in the next AC on different boat. Would it hold in court?

Regards,

DDA

Can anyone imagine a world where a AC team would agree in writing to future "penalties" based on the outcome of a yet to be sailed AC regatta they have spent bucket loads of money to be a potential challenger in. That just beggars belief.

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On 27/06/2017 at 11:49 AM, Doug Lord said:

Lot of use of the word "yachting" by TNZ management in the press conference. I think Dalton said something to the effect: 'we have to preserve the yachting aspect-I don't know if pushing oil around does that'. Also-'I'm not sure these boats would survive in the conditions we have down there'. These are not direct quotes but paraphrases as I remember them. And then you add in Luna Rosa  it begins to seem like a mono "yacht" may be the next boat-sailing for the masses to yachting for the yachties? Seems pretty scary for the future Cup to me......... Maybe we'll know more in a couple of weeks?

Congratulations to Team New Zealand!

Future of the cup? You are an ignorant old prick. Monohulls are what men sail offshore in real sailing conditions. What we just witnessed in AC35 was marketing fooling you into believing there is no going back. You sucked that in as you suck on your bottle of mushroom juice. 

There's more people sailing monos than multihulls, more fans of monos, more regattas in monos and monos are what this competition should be sailed in. 

Get a cloth and wipe up the shit that's dribbled down your chin. Larry has pulled his pants up and left your anus eatery. 

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11 minutes ago, Barnacle Bill said:

Future of the cup? You are an ignorant old prick. Monohulls are what men sail offshore in real sailing conditions. What we just witnessed in AC35 was marketing fooling you into believing there is no going back. You sucked that in as you suck on your bottle of mushroom juice. 

There's more people sailing monos than multihulls, more fans of monos, more regattas in monos and monos are what this competition should be sailed in. 

Get a cloth and wipe up the shit that's dribbled down your chin. Larry has pulled his pants up and left your anus eatery. 

I see you have carried on your winning ways Bill. When it comes to pure venom Shakespeare has nothing on you, its almost a form of artwork. 

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9 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

You need to lie down, take deep breaths and think before posting. If BAR had been successful in making the challenge, they would have specified the size of boat in the challenge and would then have negotiated the protocol. The defender cannot force a type of boat onto the challenger. Trying to make a challenge was the best way of attempting to get the type of boat they wanted. 

You need to think before making a cunt of yourself. BAR ,may very well have lodged a Challenge already - just not as CoR.

 

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19 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I see you have carried on your winning ways Bill. When it comes to pure venom Shakespeare has nothing on you, its almost a form of artwork. 

Thanks man. I've been out sailing around in storms. No internet. I needed to purge. 

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58 minutes ago, Don said:

Can anyone imagine a world where a AC team would agree in writing to future "penalties" based on the outcome of a yet to be sailed AC regatta they have spent bucket loads of money to be a potential challenger in. That just beggars belief.

+100000

gid it takes no time for this place to go off the rails when there is no sailing going on. 4 years is going to feel like decades!

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1 minute ago, Barnacle Bill said:

Thanks man. I've been out sailing around in storms. No internet. I needed to purge. 

Your welcome.....I wondered where you had been...hope you enjoy your time under canvas...or is it petrol

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3 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

BAR hasn't got any sponsorship as of now. ..

So you know something Sir Ben doesn't, or are you just full of shit as usual...

Sir Ben: " We may already be committed to the next Cup but we are in the fortunate position of already having a number of partners and commercial sponsors on board."

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6 hours ago, frozenhawaiian said:

on that note I wonder if they plan on trying to put lifting foils on comanche. that would be a hell of a sight to see. wonder if the hull structure could take the load. 

I imagine you would put it into a aluminium box frame that would even the stress over a large chunk of the hull. 

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

If you read between the lines the whole article, Cammas makes 3 points:

1) He is more willing than ever to win the AC to put it back to the "fastest boat" if it doesn't happen to be the case

2) The 5 are linked by an agreement with financial penalties

3) If the AC goes back to a slow mono they could very well have another much more attractive event.

IMO, pretty clear that there will be no financial consequences, but they could very well launch a competitive event with 50 kts foilers if TNZ caves in to Italian wishes or dictat.

 

Mate, the 5 poodles can set up any event they want, they just won't have the words "America's Cup" attached to it, and without these words it's just another event which will compete against ESS - and good luck to them with that!!:lol:

Those sad sacks won't hold the AC to ransom: the Defender has a Challenger, and that's all they need for AC36.

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I'm taking a punt on TT moving Artemis to Australia if needed to.meet nationality requirements

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23 minutes ago, rgeek said:

I'm taking a punt on TT moving Artemis to Australia if needed to.meet nationality requirements

Or do what happened in the old days.............make a financial donation to the ruling party and hey presto everyone's got Citizenship. 

bribe.jpg

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

Your welcome.....I wondered where you had been...hope you enjoy your time under canvas...or is it petrol

Cruising laminate.... Canvas. 

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11 minutes ago, Barnacle Bill said:

Cruising laminate.... Canvas. 

In this weather ???? wow 

May I suggest you join the Catholic church were you can combine self flagellation and sailing 

 

As you can see this is Bill Going Sailing

bill goes sailing.jpg

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7 hours ago, sclarke said:

 The Americas Cup is/ was and always will be sustainable by name alone, and thats the way it should stay.

^^ You are dreaming in colors.

As for AC36, it's not only for the name, it will depend on the boat.

If they chose a fast boat, fine, if they chose a slowmono, it would be entertaining to watch GC32 and foiling kites turning around :lol:

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33 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ You are dreaming in colors.

As for AC36, it's not only for the name, it will depend on the boat.

If they chose a fast boat, fine, if they chose a slowmono, it would be entertaining to watch GC32 and foiling kites turning around :lol:

The America's Cup will always remain the premier event it has  been for 168 years, regardless of what yachts AC36 is competed in. The short-attention-span AD/HD voyeurs in the peanut stands can fuck off and watch any other regatta they want and won't be missed.

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May be for a cycle or two but people will catch on quick if the poor has no clothes 

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The AC boats were not much faster (if at all) than other boats from 1851 to 2010, and for long periods they were actually significantly slower. It doesn't seem to worry the public much.

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13 minutes ago, The Jay said:

The AC boats were not much faster (if at all) than other boats from 1851 to 2010, and for long periods they were actually significantly slower. It doesn't seem to worry the public much.

First AC were with fastest boats that YC could present, Js were fastest and most beautiful. Even at other periods the difference was a few knots only.

Now kids are all on foilint stuff: Flying Phantom, Nacra 17, foiling kites, foiling boards. Most ocean races are race with monos and multi with foils.

I do trust the kiwis to come with an interesting boats, not sure about LR, but thinking that the name "America's Cup" is enough to create interest is nonsense, excepted for 70 years old and over.

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Nope. Maria beat America in trials before she left America, and George Steers said that one of his pilot cutters (Mary Taylor) was probably faster than America. The early challengers were normally pretty much just normal British first-class racers. For example Valkyrie II rated slower than Britannia and Satanita. During the J Class era there were a bunch of other British boats that rated pretty much the same as boats like the Endeavours, and raced closely with them in domestic regattas. The schooner Westward rated higher and beat them all at times.

The 12 Metres were much slower than boats like Manureva (69' wingmasted tri), Jet Services (85' cat), Apricot (ORMA 60 predecessor), Lada Poch, Great Britian III and IV etc. Even the monohull maxis and the remaining M Class were much quicker than the 12 Metres, and of course during the IACC era boats like the IMS maxis, the 75 footers, the 80' IRC maxis and the Grand Mistrals were much faster.

The kids are "not all on foiling stuff". There's only about 100-200 FPs in the whole world, and something like 400 N17s, and most of them are not sailed by kids. And the last time I checked, the number of kids sailing kitefoilers was tiny. So there's maybe a few hundred kids on foiling stuff in a sport that has many tens of thousands of kids.

Go back 30 years ago and a windsurfer or a Tornado could often beat a 12 Metre around a course, but the AC was still the AC. Most fans either don't know or don't care if the sports gear they are looking at is the fastest thing that can be designed - did you ever see fans walking away from a Tourenwagen race or the Tour de France because there are faster cars or bikes, or did you see them turning off Michael Phelps because he didn't wear a streamlined suit and flippers?

 

 

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19 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sweet

 

Looks great! Verdier is a stud. The boat seems designed for an offshore AC.

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33 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sweet

 

 

Sounds awesome. Adapt this to AC racing and bring it on!

"The precursor of a new generation of giants of the seas, this boat features innovative, purposeful planing hulls beneath the waterline, which are a far cry from those used on the current fleet of oceanic multihulls. Everything about the forms of the floats and the central hull shouts flight. With this in mind, she will be equipped with the very latest architectural and technical advances in terms of appendages, with T-foil rudders and L-shaped foils, which are sure to set tongues wagging. With everything geared towards flight, a great deal of care has gone into the aerodynamics of the platform. The forms of the beams in particular testify to this, as does the integration of the living space/ cockpit between the two beams."

 

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20 hours ago, Xlot said:

 

He was only able to enter the AC because of the golden moment of mobile operators entering the market, that's long gone. In fact, he says "it really depends on what the Kiwis will decide. If it's monos, not huge, that put a premium on seafaring art, I'll do my utmost to be there". 

His son rather liked cats, though :D

 

The reason he was able to able to enter the AC was because he was about to take Mobylines public. They cancelled the IPO amid all sorts of business problems, and Onorato went from almost a billionaire to just another medium rich guy.

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17 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

I am no lawyer, but if the teams have entered into an agreement outside of the protocol, surely that agreement is binding. A deal is a deal. If they have agreed between themselves not to compete if the cup isn't sailed under certain conditions, and one team does, the others can go after that team for penalty which Cammas suggests was included in the agreement. Do you think that Ellison would let that pass? He loves going to court and is spiteful enough to do it. The big question is how much that agreed penalty is. If it's say $500,000, no real problem because that is a peanut figure compared with a cup budget but what if it is $5m or $10m or more. That would finish off at least one campaign, maybe more.

It seems like we are now entering a big game of poker. Will the 5 teams stick together and will ETNZ risk losing all the other existing teams. The AC with ETNZ, LR and the rest being all new teams would really devalue the next edition, because the one thing that has been shown over the years is that it needs experience to stand any chance. There has only ever been 1 first time winner and NZers on here keep reminding us that was only possible by "buying" a winning team, which certainly won't be for sale this time.

I am also pretty shocked that it seems like Dalton rejected something without even knowing what was being rejected. I could understand him looking at a proposal and deciding it wasn't something he wanted to support, but to totally dismiss even the idea of an agreement without knowing what it was seems deliberately antagonistic.

The Framework is now void, folks.  In other words, there is no Framework any more.  Frank doesn't understand this yet, as his lawyers are French. 

As we've discussed before, it was always going to be a challenge to enforce something that is prohibited by the Deed, and the only way to accomplish it was for one of the five to win. 

ACEA is now wound up and will be dissolved.  New entity will not have that name.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, sclarke said:

The only thing it depends on is whether they have enough drive, and enough passion, and enough respect within their given industry to allow continuity. Yes, location makes a huge difference, but if you look at the location which was chosen this time, and all the difficulties surrounding it, Emirates, the naming sponsor chose to stay with ETNZ, even though the location was far from advantageous to them in any way. BAR have confirmed sponsorship from Land Rover and will be a part of the next cup. Look at the team ETNZ assembled. Two key members hadn't set foot on a sail boat before this Americas Cup, let alone sailed in a cup match. 4 key members of the ETNZ sailing crew were AC rookies, including the helmsman. The skipper was on only his second AC campaign, but yet these guys went out, against a ridiculously stacked deck, and demolished all opposition. All this after being publicly attacked and humiliated by the defender, and almost shut down. They won not because they had Americas Cup stars, or a huge budget like other teams, but because they are passionate, committed, innovative and willing to take risks. Its not about having superstar sailors. Its about knowing what you want to achieve and doing what needs to be done to achieve it. Look at the French, they have a lot more multihull experience then ETNZ, (or anyone for that matter) has and should by rights be a top contender, but their focus remains largely in offshore sailing and other regattas like the GC32. If they focus on winning the Americas Cup, they just may collect better results.

I'm saying, persistance pays off, ETNZ proved that. The thing is, most teams tend to buy success, not make success. Where ETNZ have won 3 times because they have made their own success, using Kiwi sailors (and one Aussie) and using Kiwi innovation and skill. 

 

The french are always been on offshore racing, mostly solo. It's the french culture but it's also due to financial reasons.

It's sure that if only based on multihull experience, we should have had two great teams for the last 2 ACs (had we put a team in SF), and Peyron was already on a boat in Valencia.

One of the problem in France is sponsorship, we cannot find big money to sustain an AC cycle. The rich millionaires don't want to show off their money (if they have enough for AC) due to taxes inspectors and the way the commoners would trash those "filthy rich guys".

It's easier for a sponsor to put some money over a long period of time for a solo skipper, buy a used boat for the first season, see it the Return on Investment is ok, then build a newer boat and continue with the solo skipper, upgrade to a team for the Round the World record if need be....

A french sponsor cannot bring the millions of euros needed for AC over 2-3 years periods.

 

Regards,

DDA

 

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1 hour ago, The Jay said:

....

The 12 Metres were much slower than boats like Manureva (69' wingmasted tri), Jet Services (85' cat), Apricot (ORMA 60 predecessor), Lada Poch, Great Britian III and IV etc. Even the monohull maxis and the remaining M Class were much quicker than the 12 Metres, and of course during the IACC era boats like the IMS maxis, the 75 footers, the 80' IRC maxis and the Grand Mistrals were much faster.

.......

 

Manureva, Jet Services, Lada Poch.... Brings back memories of the Route du Rhum and seeing those beasts at the dock on my island. Seeing Peyron (Lada Poch) and the other skippers (Colas, Poupon, Arthaud, Bourgnon...). 

It was strange to see Loereal in San Diego after seeing it a few years back in Guadeloupe after it crossed the finish line...

memories...

The Route du Rhum is the ultimate race for the French.

AC is nowehere close for them but I want the french back in the AC badly and able to compete for the cup...

 

Regards,

DDA

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What I find interesting in the French sailing sponsorship environment, is that it is mostly medium/small companies doing the sponsorship, more than big ones (CAC 40 ones).

Safran was an exception, there has been Veolia also, but otherwise, PRB, Sodebo, Bel, Charal, are all small medium companies. Groupama and Banque pop would be the only ones on the big side currently, but even these two are not part of the CAC 40.

And in fact the small companies are more "faithful" in their sponsorship than the big ones (Safrran, DCNS, veolia, Orange, they all stopped).

I'm not sure why there is not more sailing sponsorship from the big ones.

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54 minutes ago, dbeauvar said:

 

The french are always been on offshore racing, mostly solo. It's the french culture but it's also due to financial reasons.

It's sure that if only based on multihull experience, we should have had two great teams for the last 2 ACs (had we put a team in SF), and Peyron was already on a boat in Valencia.

One of the problem in France is sponsorship, we cannot find big money to sustain an AC cycle. The rich millionaires don't want to show off their money (if they have enough for AC) due to taxes inspectors and the way the commoners would trash those "filthy rich guys".

It's easier for a sponsor to put some money over a long period of time for a solo skipper, buy a used boat for the first season, see it the Return on Investment is ok, then build a newer boat and continue with the solo skipper, upgrade to a team for the Round the World record if need be....

A french sponsor cannot bring the millions of euros needed for AC over 2-3 years periods.

 

Regards,

DDA

 

The one thing is, there's a lot of smaller teams who are very innovative. Gitana Banque Populaire, Edmond de Rothschild, Groupama, Sodebo. Imagine if they pooled their ideas and resources into one campaign for the Americas Cup. They could pull it off, but it just needs to be the main focus, but its not in France. 

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sweet

 

Thanks, a boat like that without the central hull would be my choice

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I really don't see the problem with going with Mono's. Yes, AC35 was great entertainment, small cats up on foils zipping around a tiny course in Bermuda, but I really believe monohulls can look just as spectacular, if not more spectacular. As long as the coverage is first rate, HD cameras, drones etc, it won't really matter how fast the boats go. I have  a few Sydney Hobart starts on my hard drive, I watch them often, and the coverage of that is fantastic! The boats look great, the commentary is informative with a mix of simple explanations in layman's terms as well as indepth explanations from people who know exactly whats happening on the course. The best thing about it, is the viewer has time to watch, digest and analyse what is happening instead of everything being over in a heartbeat. I think if we have big mono's it could be just as good as AC35 as an event. 

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20 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

If you read between the lines the whole article, Cammas makes 3 points:

1) He is more willing than ever to win the AC to put it back to the "fastest boat" if it doesn't happen to be the case

2) The 5 are linked by an agreement with financial penalties

3) If the AC goes back to a slow mono they could very well have another much more attractive event.

IMO, pretty clear that there will be no financial consequences, but they could very well launch a competitive event with 50 kts foilers if TNZ caves in to Italian wishes or dictat.

 

I said it before in another thread, and I believe it more now than ever. LE doesn't like to lose. Better stated, LE doesn't lose. And if ever there is any degree of chance in the outcome, LE determines ahead of time how he can personally or professionally win regardless of the outcome. 

So in Bermuda, if he had won on the water, great, he wins overall and gets another AC in Bermuda in AC50s with the hope of a couple more teams.

But he lost on the water, so my question is how he figured out how to win despite the loss. And I think Tornado-Cat has his finger on it: The Bermuda 5 will do their own event in AC50s and do their best to marginalize the AC proper. 

In which case we have a fight on our hands.

In one corner: LE and some other 'lesser' billionaires try to establish an F1-style circuit, with a full slate of events in 2018 leading up to the victor winning a new cup bearing the name of a sponsor that signs onto a long term deal. Maybe the "Louis Vitton Cup." Assets in their corner: a whole lot of money, 5 teams ready to go, boats ready to go, bases ready to go, probably tv contracts ready or near ready to go. 

In the other corner: GD and LR, trying to run an AC in Feb 2020 in a manner similar to the way it's traditionally been, as a 1-off regatta with a long lead up. Assets in their corner: the Americas Cup, support of the entire Kiwi nation, support of one billionaire.

I'm not so sure anyone on this forum should declare a winner in that fight before the fight itself takes place. LE's money and ego against the prestige of the AC, is what it comes down to. I don't know. If you were one of the world's 'lesser' billionaires or if you run a company with a big marketing budget, and you loved sailing, and you were faced with joining LE or fighting LE, I don't think you'd have an easy decision to make.  

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6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

...t thinking that the name "America's Cup" is enough to create interest is nonsense, excepted for 70 years old and over.

You're confusing the America's Cup with all the other regattas - common mistake by the go-fast AD/HD fuckwits who think the AC is about "fast boats". The AC is an Institution which has lasted for 168 years for very good reasons, which do NOT include pandering to the short-attention-span morons.

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In the words of Grant Dalton "Inventing your own cup won't work, this is the Americas Cup, this has got history, you CAN NOT replace it". Not a true'r word spoken by Grant. Especially if they want to race it in AC50's. It means a huge crew to maintain, launch and sail, not to mention keeping a team up and running, and travelling around the world for an event that really isn't worth winning. Who's going to pay for that? Larry was reluctant to spend money on the Americas Cup, there's no way he's going to open his wallet for a ridiculously expensive event that has next to no prestige. He's a rich man, these guys don't get rich by blowing their fortunes on things that will not give them any return. Unless its the Americas Cup, it doesn't matter.

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21 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

If you read between the lines the whole article, Cammas makes 3 points:

1) He is more willing than ever to win the AC to put it back to the "fastest boat" if it doesn't happen to be the case

2) The 5 are linked by an agreement with financial penalties

3) If the AC goes back to a slow mono they could very well have another much more attractive event.

IMO, pretty clear that there will be no financial consequences, but they could very well launch a competitive event with 50 kts foilers if TNZ caves in to Italian wishes or dictat.

 

Gammas' credibility with regards to the AC is ZERO. 

The Cup holder and COR agree the rules of engagement, end of story. Gammas and everyone else can fuck off, if they don't like it.

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27 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

I said it before in another thread, and I believe it more now than ever. LE doesn't like to lose. Better stated, LE doesn't lose. And if ever there is any degree of chance in the outcome, LE determines ahead of time how he can personally or professionally win regardless of the outcome. 

So in Bermuda, if he had won on the water, great, he wins overall and gets another AC in Bermuda in AC50s with the hope of a couple more teams.

But he lost on the water, so my question is how he figured out how to win despite the loss. And I think Tornado-Cat has his finger on it: The Bermuda 5 will do their own event in AC50s and do their best to marginalize the AC proper. 

In which case we have a fight on our hands.

In one corner: LE and some other 'lesser' billionaires try to establish an F1-style circuit, with a full slate of events in 2018 leading up to the victor winning a new cup bearing the name of a sponsor that signs onto a long term deal. Maybe the "Louis Vitton Cup." Assets in their corner: a whole lot of money, 5 teams ready to go, boats ready to go, bases ready to go, probably tv contracts ready or near ready to go. 

In the other corner: GD and LR, trying to run an AC in Feb 2020 in a manner similar to the way it's traditionally been, as a 1-off regatta with a long lead up. Assets in their corner: the Americas Cup, support of the entire Kiwi nation, support of one billionaire.

I'm not so sure anyone on this forum should declare a winner in that fight before the fight itself takes place. LE's money and ego against the prestige of the AC, is what it comes down to. I don't know. If you were one of the world's 'lesser' billionaires or if you run a company with a big marketing budget, and you loved sailing, and you were faced with joining LE or fighting LE, I don't think you'd have an easy decision to make.  

Great post.

We don't know it to be true but it strikes me as possible too, depending what path GD and P$B go down. I suspect LE is keen to run with evolving AC50's, in Auckland or not.

BAR tweeted something to recognize the (non) announcement today but it's been silence from everyone else. Telling? Hard to say but it's obviously not any sign of 'excitement' or even endorsement.

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21 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Gammas' credibility with regards to the AC is ZERO. 

The Cup holder and COR agree the rules of engagement, end of story. Gammas and everyone else can fuck off, if they don't like it.

That is pretty much what Cammas says, the defender and the CoR can play with themselves on optis if they want.

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Where did Cammas say the contrary ? Obviously the defender and the CoR can play with themselves on optis if they want.

The guy came to AC35 with a Noah's Ark, mk II and got his arse soundly whipped. Who'd listen to anything he had to say about AC36?

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7 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

The guy came to AC35 with a Noah's Ark, mk II and got his arse soundly whipped. Who'd listen to anything he had to say about AC36?

First your argument is at the same level than those of the morons who were claiming GD always lost the AC and would never get it.

Second, Cammas does not speak for GTF but for the 5 teams, at least now.

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Here's a question for those who think creating a new AC event may work. First of all, who really wants to see a whole lot of obsolete AC50's competing against each other which were all destroyed by the ETNZ AC50? Do we really think anyone wants to see any other AC50 except the ETNZ AC50 that demolished them all? Do you think ETNZ would even consider selling their successful design to any of the Bermuda 5? I don't think so. Another question is, what team in their right mind would pay a design team, and build team to reconfigure the defeated boats to cycle power with systems similar to those seen on Aotearoa for an event that isn't worth winning? Face it, unless the ETNZ team and the ETNZ AC50 is involved, an AC50 event just isn't worth watching. Remember...there is no second.

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