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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
Doug Lord

The Next Boat-----2020

495 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

The guy came to AC35 with a Noah's Ark, mk II and got his arse soundly whipped. Who'd listen to anything he had to say about AC36?

First your argument is at the same level than those of the morons who were claiming GD always lost the AC and would never get it.

Second, Cammas does not speak for GTF but for the 5 teams, at least now.

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Here's a question for those who think creating a new AC event may work. First of all, who really wants to see a whole lot of obsolete AC50's competing against each other which were all destroyed by the ETNZ AC50? Do we really think anyone wants to see any other AC50 except the ETNZ AC50 that demolished them all? Do you think ETNZ would even consider selling their successful design to any of the Bermuda 5? I don't think so. Another question is, what team in their right mind would pay a design team, and build team to reconfigure the defeated boats to cycle power with systems similar to those seen on Aotearoa for an event that isn't worth winning? Face it, unless the ETNZ team and the ETNZ AC50 is involved, an AC50 event just isn't worth watching. Remember...there is no second.

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13 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

The guy came to AC35 with a Noah's Ark, mk II and got his arse soundly whipped. Who'd listen to anything he had to say about AC36?

By definition of the AC all the teams, except NZ, came with a dogshit boat and got their ass whipped. Their is no second in AC. Doesnt matter if you loose by 1s or 10 minutes.

Teams were throwing the towel and saving energy for the next race when they saw the other boat way in front on the last tack on their individual race.

 

I think only NZ, Oracle and Artemis thought they had a chance. Japan, France, England were hoping to show decent performances, decent  team gelling and development, knowing they would have a start for the next AC on similar boats.

They knew they were late in R&D and had no chance. This AC was to show off the sponsor and start their team R&D for the next AC, had one of the 5 or Oracle won the cup.

 

DDA

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15 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Here's a question for those who think creating a new AC event may work. First of all, who really wants to see a whole lot of obsolete AC50's competing against each other which were all destroyed by the ETNZ AC50? Do we really think anyone wants to see any other AC50 except the ETNZ AC50 that demolished them all? Do you think ETNZ would even consider selling their successful design to any of the Bermuda 5? I don't think so. Another question is, what team in their right mind would pay a design team, and build team to reconfigure the defeated boats to cycle power with systems similar to those seen on Aotearoa for an event that isn't worth winning? Face it, unless the ETNZ team and the ETNZ AC50 is involved, an AC50 event just isn't worth watching. Remember...there is no second.

I think all AC50's will continue to improve if they do continue. If ETNZ is part of it, them included.

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6 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I think all AC50's will continue to improve if they do continue. If ETNZ is part of it, them included.

Who's going to pay for that improvement? The ETNZ boat was clearly in a class of its own sailed by clearly the best crew in the event. Even Spithill said Pete is the best sailor in the world right now. Unless they can talk ETNZ into being part of it, which is highly unlikely given it would be in direct competition with the Americas Cup, who ever wins is always going to have an asterisk against their name and that win as they would not have beaten the best crew on the best boat. For that reason alone, the event will not work. 

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1 hour ago, Indio said:

You're confusing the America's Cup with all the other regattas - common mistake by the go-fast AD/HD fuckwits who think the AC is about "fast boats". The AC is an Institution which has lasted for 168 years for very good reasons, which do NOT include pandering to the short-attention-span morons.

First ACs and most of it have been sailed by the fastest boat of the YC. It did not happen when ALL competitors agreed on a boat to limit expenses. What value would have an AC with a defender and their poodle sailing on an old slow boat while other rich teams sail on faster boats ?

Basically GD has to take into account the other teams or sail with their poodle.

If they want to make a real AC they can also say: " the fastest boat to cross Hauraki bay"

 

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24 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I think all AC50's will continue to improve if they do continue. If ETNZ is part of it, them included.

I would love AC50 with no limit on foils which means flaps and no oil slaves

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3 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I would love AC50 with no limit on foils which means flaps and no oil slaves

Agreed, that could be an excellent next step. 'The fastest boats, made even faster!' :)

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43 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

First ACs and most of it have been sailed by the fastest boat of the YC. It did not happen when ALL competitors agreed on a boat to limit expenses. What value would have an AC with a defender and their poodle sailing on an old slow boat while other rich teams sail on faster boats ?

Basically GD has to take into account the other teams or sail with their poodle.

If they want to make a real AC they can also say: " the fastest boat to cross Hauraki bay"

 

The AC is between a Challenger and the Defender. The rest can fuck off and play in their own little insignificant regatta somewhere where no-one's interested. Back to monohulls

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9 minutes ago, Indio said:

The AC is between a Challenger and the Defender. The rest can fuck off and play in their own little insignificant regatta somewhere where no-one's interested.

If that was the case they would have already presented the protocol. I am not even sure they will be ready for september, they are obviously trying to find a solution pleasing both their poodle and other competitors.

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47 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Agreed, that could be an excellent next step. 'The fastest boats, made even faster!' :)

These boat can easily go over 50 kts with a more flexible rule.

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4 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

These boat can easily go over 50 kts with a more flexible rule.

So the stadia races could be over even sooner? Wow. That's progress. They could then fit them in between TV commercials. No wait.....that's right, nobody is watching anymore. ;)

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14 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

So the stadia races could be over even sooner? Wow. That's progress. They could then fit them in between TV commercials. No wait.....that's right, nobody is watching anymore. ;)

I am not against flying 90 monos, but if you want to come back to old lead mines, good luck when kids are all willing to foil now.

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19 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

So the stadia races could be over even sooner? Wow. That's progress. They could then fit them in between TV commercials. No wait.....that's right, nobody is watching anymore. ;)

If the hamster-power requirements get lowered perhaps they can extend the average race times up from the (flogging themselves to death) 22 minute range. 

'Best Sailors in the Fastest Boats' is not too bad of an ideal...

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

If that was the case they would have already presented the protocol. I am not even sure they will be ready for september, they are obviously trying to find a solution pleasing both their poodle and other competitors.

What competitors? AC36 is well under way now with the Defender and Challenger. Any other team who wants to challenge does so at the pleasure of the Defender and Challenger: they don't need the 5 losers from AC35, least of all GTF whose "spokesman" Cammas seems unable to understand the implications of their worthless framework mutual wankfest.

After the ass-reaming in Bermuda, I wouldn't be surprised if they all fucked off and raced against the kids from Bermuda - at least they'll get to beat somone :lol:

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

First ACs and most of it have been sailed by the fastest boat of the YC. It did not happen when ALL competitors agreed on a boat to limit expenses. What value would have an AC with a defender and their poodle sailing on an old slow boat while other rich teams sail on faster boats ?

Basically GD has to take into account the other teams or sail with their poodle.

If they want to make a real AC they can also say: " the fastest boat to cross Hauraki bay"

 

No, once again the first ACs were NOT sailed by the fastest boat of the YC. You can keep on saying it, but that doesn't mean it's right. America was easily beaten by Maria, a NYYC boat owned by J C Stevens, in trials in New York before America left to cross the Atlantic. Steers also said later that America was probably not as fast as the working pilot schooner Mary Taylor.

The first challenger, Cambria, started nine races in England in the year she challenged for the AC, and won only one of them. Egeria was clearly faster and Flying Cloud was clearly faster for her size. The second challenger, Livonia, had an even worse record and was one of the dogs of the English pack. Galatea was also a known slow boat. Valkyrie II, as another example, was going slower than Britannia before she left for the AC.

Roll on to more modern times and your claim is still wrong. Many of the clubs that raced 12 Metres in the AC also had much faster boats like IOR maxis around the same time. When IACC boats came in, many clubs had faster IMS maxis, sleds or other boats that were bigger and faster than the AC boats

Sorry, but you should perhaps consider not repeating claims that are not true.

 

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Of course ACEA will be wound up, so there is no entity left for TNZ to sue to get the $10m they are owed from the secret hearing over venue changes for the LV.

 

ACEA (read Coutss) have taken a FU attitude to the damages award, but we aren't allowed to talk about it because its a secret.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The Framework is now void, folks.  In other words, there is no Framework any more.  Frank doesn't understand this yet, as his lawyers are French. 

As we've discussed before, it was always going to be a challenge to enforce something that is prohibited by the Deed, and the only way to accomplish it was for one of the five to win. 

ACEA is now wound up and will be dissolved.  New entity will not have that name.

You are the lawyer, so a few questions.

Why is the framework void? I thought it was a legally binding agreement between the 5 teams outside of the protocol and the DoG. What under law stops 2 parties agreeing not to enter an event (in this case the AC) unless certain conditions are met. 

Where in the DoG does it prohibit the teams agreeing terms of their future participation in a separate agreement. The only thing I can see is "no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has been decided" Are you saying that alone is enough to make an agreement between the 5 parties invalid? Do you not think they would know that? I find it hard to believe that they would leave such an obvious route to having their plans thrown in the air. history has shown us that you cannot rely on nobody being willing to take on the legal challenges. All somebody would need to do is to deliver another challenge, just like Oracle did, and start court proceedings to throw the whole thing into a huge mess, exactly what the 5 don't want. the party doing that doesn't even need to go that far into the process to cause more problems than the 5 would ever want.

Have you seen the agreement and therefore know that they haven't structured it in a way that would comply. For instance, if the agreement said that they would only challenge if the protocol said certain things, is that the defender considering another challenge before the current one is finished? It is only saying what they will do if they are a challenger.

I think it is a bit irrelevant, because my feeling is that we will see either see at least 4 out of 5 enter, or only 1 out of the 5. A protocol with monohulls and tight nationality rules will probably only see BAR enter. The french and Oracle will not continue with monohulls. Artemis won't continue if they have to get rid of the core team members while SBTJ cannot continue without their non nationals. Maybe the 5 are irrelevant to the future of the AC anyway, so it doesn't matter, but I seem to remember a view that the AC would have been diminished without the NZers (which I agreed with) and I would say the same now applied with Artemis and maybe even Oracle. Even some of the hardliners are now suggesting the return of Alinghi would be good. While no 1 team is bigger than the cup itself, every edition is enhanced or otherwise by the quality of the entry.

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Great post.

We don't know it to be true but it strikes me as possible too, depending what path GD and P$B go down. I suspect LE is keen to run with evolving AC50's, in Auckland or not.

BAR tweeted something to recognize the (non) announcement today but it's been silence from everyone else. Telling? Hard to say but it's obviously not any sign of 'excitement' or even endorsement.

The trouble is that nobody will give a fuck about it. NOBODY.

Look at the amazing viewership that the ACWS had and it actually had a (limited) impact on the AC itself.

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I haven't seen the exact wording on the agreement but it would seem extraordinarily unlikely that it prevents them from competing in AC36 in whatever class of boat is arranged by ETNZ and LR

No one in their right mind with decent legal advice would sign such a document and it's an absolute certainty that these teams had ample legal advice before signing.

The ONLY possible lingering effect of that framework is the fact that it was for two events so conceivably if one of the signees won in Auckland and the COR was another signee they could be forced into reverting back to the agreement for their first defence.

But given that under the deeds "no challenge can be considered" clause the agreement cannot force you to accept a certain challenger, it's on a first come first served basis all they would have to do is engineer it so the first challenger was a none signee.

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17 minutes ago, Boybland said:

I haven't seen the exact wording on the agreement but it would seem extraordinarily unlikely that it prevents them from competing in AC36 in whatever class of boat is arranged by ETNZ and LR

No one in their right mind with decent legal advice would sign such a document and it's an absolute certainty that these teams had ample legal advice before signing.

The ONLY possible lingering effect of that framework is the fact that it was for two events so conceivably if one of the signees won in Auckland and the COR was another signee they could be forced into reverting back to the agreement for their first defence.

But given that under the deeds "no challenge can be considered" clause the agreement cannot force you to accept a certain challenger, it's on a first come first served basis all they would have to do is engineer it so the first challenger was a none signee.

I suspect you are right that they are not that stupid.

But.....there is always a possibility that they were.

 

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein.

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5 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I am not against flying 90 monos, but if you want to come back to old lead mines, good luck when kids are all willing to foil now.

None of the kids I know are even remotely interested in yachts. Foiling or non foiling 

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container sized mono's . Centerline foils like moths ( keep the boys away from the razors). moveable appendages on foils and elevators to minimise energy expenditure. half a kilowatt of power available to do whatever you want. Full computer control of sail trim to balance the boat and appendages. Box rule, go hard on design.

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8 hours ago, Indio said:

1) AC36 is well under way now with the Defender and Challenger.

2) Any other team who wants to challenge does so at the pleasure of the Defender and Challenger

 

1) So the AC is under way without any known protocol ?

2 ) Don't confuse their rights with their constraints. As I don't want to believe they want to make the AC unfair, it is most probably because they want to modify the agreement they have with LR in order to get more players. But we don't know how De Nora holds them.

 

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50 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

1) So the AC is under way without any known protocol ?

2 ) Don't confuse their rights with their constraints. As I don't want to believe they want to make the AC unfair, it is most probably because they want to modify the agreement they have with LR in order to get more players. But we don't know how De Nora holds them.

 

Hahaha!! You sure are thick...you must be French :lol:. The ONLY constraints on ETNZ and the Challenger are the Deed of Gift. As it stands now, it's a DoG Challenge which requires no fucking protocol. A Protocol is only required if the Defender and CoR agree to allow multiple challengers...

After 12000+ posts, you don't look like you've learned much at all about the AC.

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9 hours ago, The Jay said:

No, once again the first ACs were NOT sailed by the fastest boat of the YC. You can keep on saying it, but that doesn't mean it's right. America was easily beaten by Maria, a NYYC boat owned by J C Stevens, in trials in New York before America left to cross the Atlantic. Steers also said later that America was probably not as fast as the working pilot schooner Mary Taylor.

The first challenger, Cambria, started nine races in England in the year she challenged for the AC, and won only one of them. Egeria was clearly faster and Flying Cloud was clearly faster for her size. The second challenger, Livonia, had an even worse record and was one of the dogs of the English pack. Galatea was also a known slow boat. Valkyrie II, as another example, was going slower than Britannia before she left for the AC.

Roll on to more modern times and your claim is still wrong. Many of the clubs that raced 12 Metres in the AC also had much faster boats like IOR maxis around the same time. When IACC boats came in, many clubs had faster IMS maxis, sleds or other boats that were bigger and faster than the AC boats

Sorry, but you should perhaps consider not repeating claims that are not true.

 

Americas was the first of 15 yachts after having crossed the atlantic, thus both notions of speed AND seaworthiness

Cambria was encouraged to compete because they beat yankee yacht Saphho. The winner was one of 17 yachts.

The AC has never been about slow boats

 

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10 minutes ago, Indio said:

Hahaha!! You sure are thick...you must be French :lol:. The ONLY constraints on ETNZ and the Challenger are the Deed of Gift. As it stands now, it's a DoG Challenge which requires no fucking protocol. A Protocol is only required if the Defender and CoR agree to allow multiple challengers...

After 12000+ posts, you don't look like you've learned much at all about the AC.

^^ You are not far away with your 9 000 posts. Are you so slow you did not notice that GD announced he would announce a prot ? You are also the one claiming that BAR is in. Make up you mind mate. :lol:

 

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ You are not far away with your 9 000 posts. Are you so slow you did not notice that GD announced he would announce a prot ? You are also the one claiming that BAR is in. Make up you mind mate. :lol:

 

Until and Unless the Defender and Challenger reach agreement, it's a DoG match right now you dumb fuck!!

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22 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The AC has never been about slow boats

Depends what time your talking about, In the 1980's 12 Meters were not the fastest yachts. During the J period they were. IACC yachts were fast but not able to take on a super maxi.

 

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5 hours ago, mako23 said:

None of the kids I know are even remotely interested in yachts. Foiling or non foiling 

+1 Agree. And in any case, the AC's raison d'être is not to grow the sport of sailing. Who gives a fuck whether 'the kids' want to foil or not?

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1 hour ago, mako23 said:

Depends what time your talking about, In the 1980's 12 Meters were not the fastest yachts. During the J period they were. IACC yachts were fast but not able to take on a super maxi.

 

Agreed, what I was trying to tell is that the difference was from only a few knots. Now, depending on the chosen boat, the difference would be huge with foilers, even smaller ones like kites or the FP. And every new development points for even faster boats.

 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Americas was the first of 15 yachts after having crossed the atlantic, thus both notions of speed AND seaworthiness

Cambria was encouraged to compete because they beat yankee yacht Saphho. The winner was one of 17 yachts.

The AC has never been about slow boats

 

There was a big difference between AC boats and the fastest boats at times. A 12 Metre like Valiant would not have been close to the speed of the wing masted tri Pen Duick, which is the same age and length. Boats like the foiling wingmasted tri Paul Ricard and the 85' cat Jet Services V were knots faster than a 12 Metre or IACC boat in the same eras.

download.jpg

download.jpg

Have you ever seen a crowd walk away from a WRC rally, motorbike race, Tourenwagen race or NASCAR because the cars don't go as fast as F1?  As I type this, there are millions of people watching men go about 12 knots in the world's biggest sporting event. Pure speed is irrelevant to most spectators.

 

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2 hours ago, Indio said:

Until and Unless the Defender and Challenger reach agreement, it's a DoG match right now you dumb fuck!!

^^ The Deed is not the issue now, they work on writing a decent protocol.

The question I am wondering is how much money, and thus control, has De Nora on the team choices.

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26 minutes ago, The Jay said:

There was a big difference between AC boats and the fastest boats at times. A 12 Metre like Valiant would not have been close to the speed of the wing masted tri Pen Duick, which is the same age and length. Boats like the foiling wingmasted tri Paul Ricard and the 85' cat Jet Services V were knots faster than a 12 Metre or IACC boat in the same eras.

download.jpg

download.jpg

Have you ever seen a crowd walk away from a WRC rally, motorbike race, Tourenwagen race or NASCAR because the cars don't go as fast as F1?  As I type this, there are millions of people watching men go about 12 knots in the world's biggest sporting event. Pure speed is irrelevant to most spectators.

 

Paul Ricard was an interesting concept, not a very successful boat, too early for its time, it was the ancestor of the Hydroptère.

Jet Service was an amazing boat, then Commodore Explorer, now based in Lorient.

Don't forget that 12 M were chosen by all the teams. If 2 or 3 teams chose a slow boat now while the others decide to go full throttle, could lead to make a joke AC.

But the info I got 2 weeks ago, coming from Switzerland, were about a big flying mono.

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18 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The question I am wondering is how much money, and thus control, has De Nora on the team choices.

Do you mean Bertelli?  De Nora is for sure influential within ETNZ, but when it come to boat/rules etc I imagine he'd defer to GD and the rest of the management team.

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12 minutes ago, ezyb said:

Do you mean Bertelli?  De Nora is for sure influential within ETNZ, but when it come to boat/rules etc I imagine he'd defer to GD and the rest of the management team.

We have different influencors, De Nora who has been here for long, Bertelli, GD, TNZ government, sponsors, and other potential teams willing to play. I am completely unable to measure to power of each, some in the forum may know more.

Boat rules, at least general ones, will decide the number of teams, but the Swiss boat buiders have inteterest, stakes, and have been preparing for this since last AC.

 

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2 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

You are the lawyer, so a few questions.

Why is the framework void? I thought it was a legally binding agreement between the 5 teams outside of the protocol and the DoG. What under law stops 2 parties agreeing not to enter an event (in this case the AC) unless certain conditions are met. 

There are a lot of strong ways to attack the validity and enforceability of a document predicated on an event that didn't happen, but let's say all those are irrelevant; what's to prevent a signatory from merely creating a new entity that is incapable of being bound by the terms of the Framework?  Team Japan Softbank, Sweden Artemis Racing, Groupama Tourism France, etc.

Where in the DoG does it prohibit the teams agreeing terms of their future participation in a separate agreement. The only thing I can see is "no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has been decided" Are you saying that alone is enough to make an agreement between the 5 parties invalid? Do you not think they would know that? I find it hard to believe that they would leave such an obvious route to having their plans thrown in the air. 

Saying "they would have known better, so I'll believe them" is a silly argument unless you personally know the lawyers involved and you know that the clients followed their advice 100% of the time - I'm guessing neither of these assumptions is remotely close to true.  "No other challenge can be considered" is very clear language, I don't see how agreeing to set the terms of multiple challenges while an existing challenge is still being decided can fit this term.

Have you seen the agreement and therefore know that they haven't structured it in a way that would comply. For instance, if the agreement said that they would only challenge if the protocol said certain things, is that the defender considering another challenge before the current one is finished? It is only saying what they will do if they are a challenger.

No, but I am going to Auckland next month and who knows?

I think it is a bit irrelevant, because my feeling is that we will see either see at least 4 out of 5 enter, or only 1 out of the 5. A protocol with monohulls and tight nationality rules will probably only see BAR enter. The french and Oracle will not continue with monohulls. Artemis won't continue if they have to get rid of the core team members while SBTJ cannot continue without their non nationals. Maybe the 5 are irrelevant to the future of the AC anyway, so it doesn't matter, but I seem to remember a view that the AC would have been diminished without the NZers (which I agreed with) and I would say the same now applied with Artemis and maybe even Oracle. Even some of the hardliners are now suggesting the return of Alinghi would be good. While no 1 team is bigger than the cup itself, every edition is enhanced or otherwise by the quality of the entry.

Oracle is out either way.  Artemis would be fine with monohulls.  Alinghi is in if its multihulls, and there are two aussie teams seriously looking into it to go along with the 3 teams in the US doing the same.  I expect 7-8 teams in Auckland at a minimum assuming they don't go back to IACC type sloths.

 

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19 hours ago, sclarke said:

Here's a question for those who think creating a new AC event may work. First of all, who really wants to see a whole lot of obsolete AC50's competing against each other which were all destroyed by the ETNZ AC50? Do we really think anyone wants to see any other AC50 except the ETNZ AC50 that demolished them all? Do you think ETNZ would even consider selling their successful design to any of the Bermuda 5? I don't think so. Another question is, what team in their right mind would pay a design team, and build team to reconfigure the defeated boats to cycle power with systems similar to those seen on Aotearoa for an event that isn't worth winning? Face it, unless the ETNZ team and the ETNZ AC50 is involved, an AC50 event just isn't worth watching. Remember...there is no second.

Who would care for this rogue series, except some nerds like us? It would be just another series with foiling cats, competing against the well-established EXSS. Without a B's help if would die of underfunding before it actually happened, because BAR's, GTF's and other teams' sponsors signed for the AC and not JARS (just another regatta series).

Rememer the threat of the F1 teams when the Concorde Agreement phased out? Where is that rogue series now? It never happened, because it wouldn't have been called "Formula 1".

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59 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:


Rememer the threat of the F1 teams when the Concorde Agreement phased out? Where is that rogue series now? It never happened, because it wouldn't have been called "Formula 1".

 

As it was to be expected, Rennie knows her history :)

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I’d like to throw my 2 cents in on what I would personally like to see in the next America’s Cup. It’s different. Some (most) of you probably won’t like it, but oh well. At the risk of people on the internet not liking me, here goes…

I would like to see a no-foiling mono-hull box rule, with around a 10 meter hull length. Something with perhaps the following parameters: Hull length max: 33 feet + an allowance for an 8 foot (maximum) retractable bowsprit; draft max: 8 feet; beam max: 11 feet; rig height max: 56 feet measured from the boat’s max draft. Maybe a better boat designer than I could come up with more appropriate numbers.

As part of this, I would also impose the following:

  • No hydraulic systems.
  • No foils. No underwater appendages designed to provide lift.
  • Limit the boat to two underwater appendages (keel and rudder).
  • Extreme limits on electronics: only allow basic wind speed and direction.
  • All controls must be operated by hand. Boat may have one grinding position, operated by hand, may power one winch at a time, but only through direct mechanical means (shafts, gears, belts/pulleys, etc.).
  • Boat’s sailplan must include a mainsail and a headsail, with a mast (which may not rotate) between the two sails.
  • Sails must be capable of being rolled, in either direction. (no hard sails or wings).
  • Boat must be designed and manufactured in the team’s home country.
  • Must be steered via a tiller, no wheel(s).
  • Other than that, unlimited design and materials.

As far as the venue goes, I would like to see these boats raced close to shore. I would prefer that they race where spectators can observe from shore. Ideally, a seawall (where spectators can watch) would be one of the course boundaries.

Why do I want this?

I think that this box rule will help develop technology that can be used on more common race boats. When I look at a foiling cat, basically no part of it can be used on any boat I have ever sailed on. Sure, maybe some of the materials could be, but the stark differences create a difficulty relating to what I am watching. Giving designers a box rule like this will force design innovations that will benefit more racers.

I think that such a rule structure will benefit and grow the sport of sailing. This allows the average person who might be (or become) interested in sailing to relate to the boats being sailed. I think the foiling cats turn people away from sailing, to some degree, because they are so far removed from what people know and are used to. Thinking about auto racing, everyone knows how to drive a car. If you see a formula one race, you intuitively understand that you could do the exact same thing they can do (although much worse) because the machines share significant common elements with the car you use every day (they have four wheels, a gas pedal, a clutch, and a steering wheel). These commonalities between the top and bottom of auto racing let beginners more easily envision themselves racing and therefore facilitate entry into the sport. I think that this type of box rule would help sailing with that issue.

I think this rule system would lead to more exciting racing. Sure, the speeds would be slower. But, I think the amount of tacking, maneuvering, and strategical gamesmanship would increase. Furthermore, I think the boats would stay closer together throughout the races. Watching boats that are close together and maneuvering for any possible advantage is exciting. Then, add a seawall as a course boundary, and you have a very interesting competition that is perfect for television. How cool would it be to see two boats tacking upwind at the wall, right in front of the spectators commentators, and cameras?

I get why people want the America’s Cup to have the fastest foiling boats with the most advanced technology. On some level, I want that too. But, I think the novelty of foiling has worn off and it is no longer helping to attract a bigger audience. And, even if people watch the foiling cats on TV, it doesn't transition into them getting on a sailboat and racing. 

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14 minutes ago, Xlot said:

 

As it was to be expected, Rennie knows her history :)

Thanks, my friend. Although I totally despise the F1 "analogies" for the AC.
 

14 minutes ago, FlyTheCode said:

I’d like to throw my 2 cents in on what I would personally like to see in the next America’s Cup. It’s different. Some (most) of you probably won’t like it, but oh well. At the risk of people on the internet not liking me, here goes…

I would like to see a no-foiling mono-hull box rule, with around a 10 meter hull length. Something with perhaps the following parameters: Hull length max: 33 feet + an allowance for an 8 foot (maximum) retractable bowsprit;
(...)

Very traditional, but you should make the boat a little bigger to make it Deed compliant:

"The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water-line; if of more than one mast they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water-line."

All the non-AC deliverables ("help develop technology that can be used on more common race boats", "benefit and grow the sport of sailing", "lead to more exciting racing") are nice to have, but the super-foiler fraction claims them for themselves too.

I like it tho, as a thought. Will not happen.

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Rennmaus, good catch on the length requirements. The same could be done effectively with a 45 foot monohull (with changing the other dimensions to match). I'm glad you like it. I know it probably won't happen, but oh well. 

I just don't see the foiling boats delivering effectively on the other things, even though people may claim that they are. 

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9 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ You are not far away with your 9 000 posts. Are you so slow you did not notice that GD announced he would announce a prot ? You are also the one claiming that BAR is in. Make up you mind mate. :lol:

 

PLEASE don't quote Spindio, then I am faced with inadvertently reading his verbal diarrhoea.

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I wouldn't mind seeing something similar to the RC44. Scaled up, equipped with canting keel. I think the RC44's bring the grandeur of the IACC boats, but also bring better performance. 

 

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3 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

 

Who would care for this rogue series, except some nerds like us? It would be just another series with foiling cats, competing against the well-established EXSS. Without a B's help if would die of underfunding before it actually happened, because BAR's, GTF's and other teams' sponsors signed for the AC and not JARS (just another regatta series).

Rememer the threat of the F1 teams when the Concorde Agreement phased out? Where is that rogue series now? It never happened, because it wouldn't have been called "Formula 1".

+1 Absolutely right, Rennie.

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1 hour ago, jaysper said:

PLEASE don't quote Spindio, then I am faced with inadvertently reading his verbal diarrhoea.

Perhaps with immodium ?

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Paul Ricard was an interesting concept, not a very successful boat, too early for its time, it was the ancestor of the Hydroptère.

Jet Service was an amazing boat, then Commodore Explorer, now based in Lorient.

Don't forget that 12 M were chosen by all the teams. If 2 or 3 teams chose a slow boat now while the others decide to go full throttle, could lead to make a joke AC.

But the info I got 2 weeks ago, coming from Switzerland, were about a big flying mono.

But you wouldn't have an AC where two or three teams chose "slow" boats and others go full throttle. If the CoR and Defender chose "slow" boats then anyone who wants to go "full throttle" has to go and find another race.

If pure speed matters so much why are you sailing a Tornado instead of a foiling kite or N20 foiler -they go faster. 

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

I wouldn't mind seeing something similar to the RC44. Scaled up, equipped with canting keel. I think the RC44's bring the grandeur of the IACC boats, but also bring better performance. 

Yeah, a tacking or gybing duel with canting keels, sounds brilliant...

The RNZYS can't end the protocol suspense too soon.

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

 

Who would care for this rogue series, except some nerds like us? It would be just another series with foiling cats, competing against the well-established EXSS. Without a B's help if would die of underfunding before it actually happened, because BAR's, GTF's and other teams' sponsors signed for the AC and not JARS (just another regatta series).
 

If the series were the epitome of 'The Best Sailors on the Fastest Boats' then $B's may be happy to run it, audience or not, a bit like what the J owners do for other reasons.

Guys like LE absolutely can splurge on events like that, since with basically endless money absolutely nothing prevents it. All he needs is a passion for it.

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2 minutes ago, MidPack said:

Yeah, a tacking or gybing duel with canting keels, sounds brilliant...

Driven by cyclors of course.

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5 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

If the series were the epitome of 'The Best Sailors on the Fastest Boats' then $B's may be happy to run it, audience or not, a bit like what the J owners do for other reasons.

Guys like LE absolutely can splurge on events like that, since with basically endless money absolutely nothing prevents it. All he needs is a passion for it.

Yeah but he can't sail by himself. He needs the sailors, the teams to want to enter. It will never be at the level of the Americas Cup, and there will always be the other regattas that are much more prestigious than some event Larry wants to start because he got destroyed in the Americas Cup.

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15 minutes ago, The Jay said:

1) If the CoR and Defender chose "slow" boats then anyone who wants to go "full throttle" has to go and find another race.

2) If pure speed matters so much why are you sailing a Tornado instead of a foiling kite or N20 foiler -they go faster. 

1) That is what the 5 teams may decide

2) Excellent point, I am thinking of either mounting foils or replace it by the FP. I did many trials years ago with canting mast, tips under the main beam and stern. Interesting but it took years and $ M to find the new solutions.

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9 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Yeah but he can't sail by himself. He needs the sailors, the teams to want to enter. It will never be at the level of the Americas Cup, and there will always be the other regattas that are much more prestigious than some event Larry wants to start because he got destroyed in the Americas Cup.

But does he care about any of that? I guess time will tell.

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37 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Yeah but he can't sail by himself. He needs the sailors, the teams to want to enter. It will never be at the level of the Americas Cup, and there will always be the other regattas that are much more prestigious than some event Larry wants to start because he got destroyed in the Americas Cup.

Destroyed? Getting a little ahead of yourself? Larry won the AC twice, same as your Peter Blake the only two time winner from NZ. NZ has had their share of AC disappointments no?

But congrats on winning AC35 convincingly. AC36 seems in good hands.

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Just now, MidPack said:

Getting a little ahead of yourself? Larry won the AC twice, same as your Peter Blake the only two time winner from NZ.

Larry won the AC twice, but never once has he progressed through a challenger series. Many still question the 2013 miracle comeback, but no one questions the two 5-0 whitewashes or the demolition job of Oracle in Bermuda. Team NZ and ETNZ won because they were simply the best teams. Oracle won a one sided DoG match and a questionable (depending on who you talk to) 9-8 comeback, then got destroyed against a much better Kiwi team.

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3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Larry won the AC twice, but never once has he progressed through a challenger series. Many still question the 2013 miracle comeback, but no one questions the two 5-0 whitewashes or the demolition job of Oracle in Bermuda. Team NZ and ETNZ won because they were simply the best teams. Oracle won a one sided DoG match and a questionable (depending on who you talk to) 9-8 comeback, then got destroyed against a much better Kiwi team.

You're entitled to your point of view, regardless of any bias.

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

PLEASE don't quote Spindio, then I am faced with inadvertently reading his verbal diarrhoea.

Haha, I know you un-ignore my posts Jason - you can't help yourself:lol:

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Funny thing is, there are 6 AC50's with nothing to do (maybe only 5 because ETNZ wouldn't sell their boat). If some don't like the new boat or protocol, I can see them setting up a series for those boat with an alliance of unlikely bedfellows. It would not surprise me to see Ellison and Bertarelli team up for a series and not care that it wasn't the AC. Bertarelli has had a lot of fun in the extreme series so knows the potential. Build a set of one design boards and equalise the fleet.  How much publicity do you think an AC50 series would get? It might not be the AC, but it would be great fun and spectacular watching. Imagine 5/6 AC50's racing at one time. I wouldn't care that it wasn't the AC. It would be the most spectacular series out there and I would watch. I might even pay real money to watch it.

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6 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Funny thing is, there are 6 AC50's with nothing to do (maybe only 5 because ETNZ wouldn't sell their boat). If some don't like the new boat or protocol, I can see them setting up a series for those boat with an alliance of unlikely bedfellows. It would not surprise me to see Ellison and Bertarelli team up for a series and not care that it wasn't the AC. Bertarelli has had a lot of fun in the extreme series so knows the potential. Build a set of one design boards and equalise the fleet.  How much publicity do you think an AC50 series would get? It might not be the AC, but it would be great fun and spectacular watching. Imagine 5/6 AC50's racing at one time. I wouldn't care that it wasn't the AC. It would be the most spectacular series out there and I would watch. I might even pay real money to watch it.

+1

I selfishly hope Lorenzo choose NextGen AC50's because that way my own AC interest will be the richer for it. Those boats are the best AC Class ever imo by several measures, with untapped potential.

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1 minute ago, A Class Sailor said:

Funny thing is, there are 6 AC50's with nothing to do (maybe only 5 because ETNZ wouldn't sell their boat). If some don't like the new boat or protocol, I can see them setting up a series for those boat with an alliance of unlikely bedfellows. It would not surprise me to see Ellison and Bertarelli team up for a series and not care that it wasn't the AC. Bertarelli has had a lot of fun in the extreme series so knows the potential. Build a set of one design boards and equalise the fleet.  How much publicity do you think an AC50 series would get? It might not be the AC, but it would be great fun and spectacular watching. Imagine 5/6 AC50's racing at one time. I wouldn't care that it wasn't the AC. It would be the most spectacular series out there and I would watch. I might even pay real money to watch it.

Why would anyone bother to watch a second-rate regatta raced by the losers who couldn't cut it in AC35, in a genre totally dominated by the much-more spectacular ESS? The only publicity they'll get is the one they would pay for, and anyone like spinbot spending Larry's money for him should revisit the lack of publicity and TV coverage of AC35 because Larry is more prudent with his billion$ than spinbot's mega-spender.

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8 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Funny thing is, there are 6 AC50's with nothing to do (maybe only 5 because ETNZ wouldn't sell their boat). If some don't like the new boat or protocol, I can see them setting up a series for those boat with an alliance of unlikely bedfellows. It would not surprise me to see Ellison and Bertarelli team up for a series and not care that it wasn't the AC. Bertarelli has had a lot of fun in the extreme series so knows the potential. Build a set of one design boards and equalise the fleet.  How much publicity do you think an AC50 series would get? It might not be the AC, but it would be great fun and spectacular watching. Imagine 5/6 AC50's racing at one time. I wouldn't care that it wasn't the AC. It would be the most spectacular series out there and I would watch. I might even pay real money to watch it.

Why? If ETNZ or their boat aren't involved it wouldn't be the best sailors or the fastest boats. At least with the ESS and the GC32 series, it has a sailing component to it, it requires sailing skill and precision to get those boats around the track which is why it attracts sailors. If they try and get an AC50 regatta going, given the fact that cyclists were a key performance difference in the Cup, what are they going to do? Redesign, rebuild and remode the current arm powered boats? Or just pretend ETNZ never existed? 

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Time to come back down to reality boys. Billionaires don't get rich by blowing their fortune. There must be return on investment. And there is no return on investment with some silly AC50 regatta which does not showcase the worlds best boats, or the worlds best sailors. No return on investment what so ever. Its a pipedream.

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22 minutes ago, MidPack said:

You're entitled to your point of view, regardless of any bias  reality

Fixed

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24 minutes ago, MidPack said:

Destroyed? Getting a little ahead of yourself? Larry won the AC twice, same as your Peter Blake the only two time winner from NZ. NZ has had their share of AC disappointments no?

But congrats on winning AC35 convincingly. AC36 is in good hands.

What would you call an 8-1 score? OR-Xerox was totally humiliated in Bermuda especially after their inelegant attempts at gaming the rules with their 4 poodles against ETNZ over the last 2 years. In any event, some of the world media tend to agree with us...

Christopher Clarey – New York Times

"Emirates New Zealand Routs Oracle Team USA to Reclaim America's Cup

"Many a well-financed maritime expedition has come to grief through the centuries in the treacherous, deep-blue waters off Bermuda. Oracle Team USA joined that list on Monday, as Emirates Team New Zealand and its crew of young newcomers finished off a surprisingly lopsided 7-1 victory to reclaim the America’s Cup after a 14-year wait.

The final race was a rout, with New Zealand trailing at the first mark but dominating after that and finishing 55 seconds ahead of the American team."

Bernie Wilson, Associated Press

"Redemption for a gutty crew of five New Zealanders and one Australian came on the turquoise waters of Bermuda's Great Sound, four years and 3,000 miles removed from one of the most brutal collapses in sports.

"With a mixture of ingenuity and national pride, Emirates Team New Zealand got back up after a gut punch for the ages and came to the Bermuda Triangle and ripped the America's Cup right out of tech tycoon Larry Ellison's hands."

Nick Vindin Guardian UK

"Emirates Team New Zealand completed the upset over holders Oracle Team USA with a 7-1 dismantling and put to bed the demons of a heartbreaking 2013 defeat in San Francisco that saw them turn an 8-1 lead to a 9-8 defeat at the hands of the Americans.

"Burling and his underrated crew etched New Zealand’s name into the oldest trophy in world sport – the Auld Mug – for a third time, spoiling Team USA’s hopes of a third straight America’s Cup triumph.

"It was an emphatic end to a dominant performance for the syndicate from the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron, who excelled with their superior downwind speed throughout the series."

Mark Jardine – Yachts and Yachting

"A 7-1 victory over Oracle Team USA was a fair result for the total dominance Peter Burling and his team have shown throughout this campaign.

"The Kiwis had to completely rebuild after their devastating defeat in San Francisco, where Oracle Team USA came back from 8-1 down to win the 34th America's Cup. Funding had to be sourced, new personnel recruited and time was short... but the New Zealand team have always proved to be great innovators, and in this they have completely changed the game."

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10 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Why? If ETNZ or their boat aren't involved it wouldn't be the best sailors or the fastest boats. At least with the ESS and the GC32 series, it has a sailing component to it, it requires sailing skill and precision to get those boats around the track which is why it attracts sailors. If they try and get an AC50 regatta going, given the fact that cyclists were a key performance difference in the Cup, what are they going to do? Redesign, rebuild and remode the current arm powered boats? Or just pretend ETNZ never existed? 

 A NextGen AC50 could solve those. As to sailors, who'd be missing? Just PB? Even he may be attracted into it, whether paid also by ETNZ for AC36 or not and he's only one guy anyway.

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37 minutes ago, MidPack said:

Destroyed? Getting a little ahead of yourself? Larry won the AC twice, same as your Peter Blake the only two time winner from NZ. NZ has had their share of AC disappointments no?

But congrats on winning AC35 convincingly. AC36 seems in good hands.

No, destroyed is a correct term. The racing wasn't even close. Larry himself lamented the fact that the races weren't close. Even Artemis put a up a better fight against the Kiwi's than Oracle did. Watch the last race again. Ken Read couldn't have put it better. "The bar has been set very high by that other boat (ETNZ) that is just constantly kickin their (Oracles) butt. And then went on to say "Lets be frank, this a bit of a caning goin on here" 

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

1) That is what the 5 teams may decide

2) Excellent point, I am thinking of either mounting foils or replace it by the FP. I did many trials years ago with canting mast, tips under the main beam and stern. Interesting but it took years and $ M to find the new solutions.

Congratulations on following up on your passion for speed. Why not go for a kitefoil instead? They seem to be faster and the faster is better why keep sailing a cat?

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6 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

 A NextGen AC50 could solve those. As to sailors, who'd be missing? Just PB? Even he may be attracted into it, whether paid also by ETNZ for AC36 or not and he's only one guy anyway.

"Just PB" haha just the best sailor in the world right now. Part of the best AC50 crew on the planet. Its been proven that you only need 2, 3 sailors max sailors per boat. A helmsman, a wing trimmer and in ETNZ's case some one to control ride height. The other 3 (or 4 if they intend to go the cycling route) can be just that...cyclists. How many current established teams do you think will get rid of their current sailing team rosters in favor of cyclists? Not many I would say. And if they intend to re-train them to go the cycling route, they would then be useless for any other sailing role, because they would have the wrong body conditioning. 

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32 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Funny thing is, there are 6 AC50's with nothing to do (maybe only 5 because ETNZ wouldn't sell their boat). If some don't like the new boat or protocol, I can see them setting up a series for those boat with an alliance of unlikely bedfellows. It would not surprise me to see Ellison and Bertarelli team up for a series and not care that it wasn't the AC. Bertarelli has had a lot of fun in the extreme series so knows the potential. Build a set of one design boards and equalise the fleet.  How much publicity do you think an AC50 series would get? It might not be the AC, but it would be great fun and spectacular watching. Imagine 5/6 AC50's racing at one time. I wouldn't care that it wasn't the AC. It would be the most spectacular series out there and I would watch. I might even pay real money to watch it.

+ 10

If the AC is not the most spectacular, let's make another one.

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6 minutes ago, The Jay said:

Congratulations on following up on your passion for speed. Why not go for a kitefoil instead? They seem to be faster and the faster is better why keep sailing a cat?

Because fast foiling cats. like AC15 are faster, so you'd better train for the fastest :)

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

+ 10

If the AC is not the most spectacular, let's make another one.

In the words of Grant Dalton: "Inventing your own cup won't work"

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6 minutes ago, Indio said:

Why would anyone bother to watch a second-rate regatta raced by the losers who couldn't cut it in AC35, in a genre totally dominated by the much-more spectacular ESS? The only publicity they'll get is the one they would pay for, and anyone like spinbot spending Larry's money for him should revisit the lack of publicity and TV coverage of AC35 because Larry is more prudent with his billion$ than spinbot's mega-spender.

Now you are being silly. You do realise that the AC isn't the most watched or followed sailing series. The Volvo and the Vendee do pretty well. Ask yourself why do large audiences watch "minor" series like the the Extreme? Do you really think that an AC50 series wouldn't attract attention?

3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Why? If ETNZ or their boat aren't involved it wouldn't be the best sailors or the fastest boats. At least with the ESS and the GC32 series, it has a sailing component to it, it requires sailing skill and precision to get those boats around the track which is why it attracts sailors. If they try and get an AC50 regatta going, given the fact that cyclists were a key performance difference in the Cup, what are they going to do? Redesign, rebuild and remode the current arm powered boats? Or just pretend ETNZ never existed? 

Why would it need to be billed the fastest etc etc? Even then, it would still be the fastest class of boat racing. The ESS and GC32 attracts top sailors because they get paid and so would an AC50 series. I knew that some NZers wouldn't get it, but most of the best racing of the whole AC didn't include ETNZ. Some of the racing between Artemis and SBTJ was spectacular.

3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Time to come back down to reality boys. Billionaires don't get rich by blowing their fortune. There must be return on investment. And there is no return on investment with some silly AC50 regatta which does not showcase the worlds best boats, or the worlds best sailors. No return on investment what so ever. Its a pipedream.

So why has Bertarelli been pumping so much money into the Extreme series? Why has Ellison spent silly money on the AC? B's do what they want to for reasons that the likes of us can never understand. Running an AC50 series would be chump change.

 

2 minutes ago, Indio said:

What would you call an 8-1 score? OR-Xerox was totally humiliated...In any event, some of the world media tend to agree with us...

This is where the NZ view and reality differ. Humiliated? No. Even somebody like Ellison knows that there will always be a winner and a loser in a match race. He would also be smart enough to know that with the type of boats being used, the match would most likely be one sided. You note that not one of the quoted media used the word 'humiliated". Thta has only been a small number of NZ fans. There is nothing humiliating about being beaten by a better team unless there was embarrassing ineptitude in what Oracle did, and however you wish to spin it, that certainly was not the case.

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11 minutes ago, sclarke said:

"Just PB" haha just the best sailor in the world right now. Part of the best AC50 crew on the planet. Its been proven that you only need 2, 3 sailors max sailors per boat. A helmsman, a wing trimmer and in ETNZ's case some one to control ride height. The other 3 (or 4 if they intend to go the cycling route) can be just that...cyclists. How many current established teams do you think will get rid of their current sailing team rosters in favor of cyclists? Not many I would say. And if they intend to re-train them to go the cycling route, they would then be useless for any other sailing role, because they would have the wrong body conditioning. 

Yes, PB may well be the Best Sailor and him not being in on this speculated NextGen AC50 series would diminish the series.. but only to a point if he got left out of that possible boat design evolution.

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5 minutes ago, sclarke said:

In the words of Grant Dalton: "Inventing your own cup won't work"

Correct! I just don't understand how peeps don't get this.

I don't like the AC50s AT ALL, but I watched them fizz around the sound SOLELY because the prize at the end was the AC.

NOBODY and I do mean NOBODY is going to fund a $100 Million+ campaign for ANY regatta that is NOT the AC.

Furthermore, fuck all people will give a shit about watching it. And by fuck all, I mean a fraction of the fuck all people that watched the AC this time.

"Fuck All x Fuck All = Seriously Fuck All"  if I remember my algebra correctly.

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4 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Yes, PB may well be the Best Sailor and him not being in on this speculated NextGen AC50 series would diminish the series.. but only to a point if he got left out of that possible boat design evolution.

The "speculated series" would have absolutely NO credibility without ETNZ. The Kiwi team AND their boat were the most innovative team and boat. Without both, an AC50 series has zero credibility. It would be a series of the second best sailors on the second fastest best boats designed by the second best design teams in the Americas Cup. 

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7 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Correct! I just don't understand how peeps don't get this.

I don't like the AC50s AT ALL, but I watched them fizz around the sound SOLELY because the prize at the end was the AC.

NOBODY and I do mean NOBODY is going to fund a $100 Million+ campaign for ANY regatta that is NOT the AC.

Furthermore, fuck all people will give a shit about watching it. And by fuck all, I mean a fraction of the fuck all people that watched the AC this time.

"Fuck All x Fuck All = Seriously Fuck All"  if I remember my algebra correctly.

Lol :) Good post.

But there are other sailing series that $B's blow huge wads on already, Maxis and Js as examples. It's a reasonable enough idea that an AC50 progression will happen if Lorenzo chooses to go off down some completely other path.

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35 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Now you are being silly. You do realise that the AC isn't the most watched or followed sailing series. The Volvo and the Vendee do pretty well. Ask yourself why do large audiences watch "minor" series like the the Extreme? Do you really think that an AC50 series wouldn't attract attention?

I'm not making any pretentious claims about the AC being the "most watched" like you and your AD/HD fellow posters are. My point was that a regatta for the AC35 losers is hardly going to interest the numbers you're wet-dreaming about, against ESS.

Quote

So why has Bertarelli been pumping so much money into the Extreme series? Why has Ellison spent silly money on the AC? B's do what they want to for reasons that the likes of us can never understand. Running an AC50 series would be chump change.

Now you're falling into the spinbot habit of "spending" the billionares' money for them :lol:

Quote

This is where the NZ view and reality differ. Humiliated? No. Even somebody like Ellison knows that there will always be a winner and a loser in a match race. He would also be smart enough to know that with the type of boats being used, the match would

most likely be one sided. 

No shit!! The OR-Xerox sailors were all telling us how "tight" and "close" the racing was going to be - and you have read Larry's mind that they would be "most likely one-sided"?? You'd better lie down before you get a migraine cobber!!

Quote

There is nothing humiliating about being beaten by a better team unless there was embarrassing ineptitude in what Oracle did, and however you wish to spin it, that certainly was not the case.

Looks like we have another OR-Xerox apologist! IOR-Xerox were totally humiliated in their own AC35 defence for which they jimmied the rules against ETNZ. Spin it however you want - an 8-1 result is a humiliation. Only an Aussie on the receiving end of one would regard it as a "moral victory":lol:

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11 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Now you are being silly. You do realise that the AC isn't the most watched or followed sailing series. The Volvo and the Vendee do pretty well. Ask yourself why do large audiences watch "minor" series like the the Extreme? Do you really think that an AC50 series wouldn't attract attention?

Why would it need to be billed the fastest etc etc? Even then, it would still be the fastest class of boat racing. The ESS and GC32 attracts top sailors because they get paid and so would an AC50 series. I knew that some NZers wouldn't get it, but most of the best racing of the whole AC didn't include ETNZ. Some of the racing between Artemis and SBTJ was spectacular.

So why has Bertarelli been pumping so much money into the Extreme series? Why has Ellison spent silly money on the AC? B's do what they want to for reasons that the likes of us can never understand. Running an AC50 series would be chump change.

 

This is where the NZ view and reality differ. Humiliated? No. Even somebody like Ellison knows that there will always be a winner and a loser in a match race. He would also be smart enough to know that with the type of boats being used, the match would most likely be one sided. You note that not one of the quoted media used the word 'humiliated". Thta has only been a small number of NZ fans. There is nothing humiliating about being beaten by a better team unless there was embarrassing ineptitude in what Oracle did, and however you wish to spin it, that certainly was not the case.

"Some of the racing between Artemis and Softbank was spectacular" Correct, but neither of those teams won the cup. Neither even made the cup match. Why is Berterelli been pumping money into the ESS? Because he is invested in it. He has a team in the race, so he is clearly invested in it. Why did Larry pump millions into the AC? Because it was his vision. Again, he was invested in it. Larry was obligated to back the AC, because it was his teams's vision. Ken Read said Oracle was constatnly getting their butts kicked, and it was caning. After the AC, Jimmy tweeted that he "copped a hiding" Oracle was embarrassed. They were absolutely destroyed. Just because they refuse to admit that, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

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6 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Lol :) Good post.

But there are other sailing series that $B's blow huge wads on already, Maxis and Js as examples. It's a reasonable enough idea that an AC50 progression will happen if Lorenzo chooses to go off down some completely other path.

They blow wads on those events because they race against each other, they race their friends and peers.. They often even race the boats themselves, something they can not do on an AC50.

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People who advocate a separate regatta for the AC50's seemed to have overlooked the fact that the AC50's are not one design.

The only major regatta's which are not one design are the International Moths and the flying 18's .. even the flying 18's have changed from it's wide open rules into a one design.

To bring the AC50's up to one design level would require new foils new wings and a standard control system.  Add in spare wings and foils and we are looking at huge costs before we even start to transport them and pay for the "best" sailors.  Then we have the venue infrastructure with building and cranes to lift the wings onto the platforms.

It's just not practical.

 

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If they make a rule that the owner has to drive the AC50 in this new hypothetical series then count me fucking in.  But they need to race it in Europe so I can watch it over my morning coffee rather than fucking up my afternoon like the Bermuda AC did :D

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

People who advocate a separate regatta for the AC50's seemed to have overlooked the fact that the AC50's are not one design.

The only major regatta's which are not one design are the International Moths and the flying 18's .. even the flying 18's have changed from it's wide open rules into a one design.

To bring the AC50's up to one design level would require new foils new wings and a standard control system.  Add in spare wings and foils and we are looking at huge costs before we even start to transport them and pay for the "best" sailors.  Then we have the venue infrastructure with building and cranes to lift the wings onto the platforms.

It's just not practical.

 

TP52s, International 14s, A Class cats, C class cats, F18s, Minis, Open 60s and ORC boats are all development (or at least semi-development, in the case of ORC) classes. Why are the 130-140 boat F18s or ORC world titles, for example, not a "major" regatta when the 20-boat 18 regattas are?

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

If the series were the epitome of 'The Best Sailors on the Fastest Boats' then $B's may be happy to run it, audience or not, a bit like what the J owners do for other reasons.

Guys like LE absolutely can splurge on events like that, since with basically endless money absolutely nothing prevents it. All he needs is a passion for it.

Excellent. Send him a letter of encouragement will you. Maybe he'll even fuck off to the J's, with his rent-a-mob.

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2 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

The only major regatta's which are not one design are the International Moths and the flying 18's .. even the flying 18's have changed from it's wide open rules into a one design.

Seriously, Terry, you have come up with some really "alternative" comments recently but this one is either thoughtless or ignorant.

To highlight some of The Jay's classes. The F18's, a class that is certainly not one design, have just finished their worlds which had 124 boats. The A's are kicking off in a month and so far have 140 boats entered. How about IRC rated boats at Cowes week? That's a major regatta with 158 entries. How about the biggest cat regatta, Round Texel, with 221 entries. Need i continue?

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On 7/19/2017 at 4:07 PM, Tornado-Cat said:

I am not against flying 90 monos, but if you want to come back to old lead mines, good luck when kids are all willing to foil now.

Which kids?  I watch some races at Southwestern Yacht Club and nobody in the (sparse) audience was under 55.

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24 minutes ago, McGyver said:

Which kids?  I watch some races at Southwestern Yacht Club and nobody in the (sparse) audience was under 55.

And the AC would come back to old monos ? :lol: It could be the best news for a new circuit.

 

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13 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

And the AC would come back to old monos ? :lol: It could be the best news for a new circuit.

To my kids foiling is what they do at the hair dresser when changing hair colour

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The whole "kids are willing to foil now" line is funny. Kids are willing to do a lot of things, be a fighter pilot. Drive an F1 car, fly in space, but that doesn't mean they can or will do those things. If you go down to your local yacht club and you count how many kids are sailing a foiling boat, you'll be able to count them on one hand, if at all. Most sail Opti's P-class, fevas etc none of which are foiling boats. 

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On 20.7.2017 at 0:51 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

If they want to make a real AC they can also say: " the fastest boat to cross Hauraki bay"

Or better yet, the fastest boat powered only by the wind and with max length at the waterline of 90 ft to cross Cook Strait:rolleyes:

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On 21/07/2017 at 0:57 PM, ezyb said:

If they make a rule that the owner has to drive the AC50 in this new hypothetical series then count me fucking in.  But they need to race it in Europe so I can watch it over my morning coffee rather than fucking up my afternoon like the Bermuda AC did :D

This would be a quick way to eliminate all the world's B$'s...  8)

AC meets reality tv maybe?

"Foiling Cat Survivor"

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On 22/07/2017 at 8:30 AM, sclarke said:

The whole "kids are willing to foil now" line is funny. Kids are willing to do a lot of things, be a fighter pilot. Drive an F1 car, fly in space, but that doesn't mean they can or will do those things. If you go down to your local yacht club and you count how many kids are sailing a foiling boat, you'll be able to count them on one hand, if at all. Most sail Opti's P-class, fevas etc none of which are foiling boats. 

Foiling isn't really in the same league as being a fighter pilot or going into space..

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Yes, there's undoubtably more fighter pilots in the world than foiler sailors.   :-)

That's not attacking foiling; it's just that it's arguably the same as something like wavesailing on windsurfers or street luge. It's great to do and great to watch but it doesn't actually attract as many kids as 29ers, Optis, Lasers etc.

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