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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

The Next Boat-----2020

815 posts in this topic

On 9/1/2017 at 4:15 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

Yes, a beast, and if we look at how they control their flight, they may have flaps on the rudder.

they have flaps on pretty much everything

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7 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

they have flaps on pretty much everything

Thks. The future of foiling.

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8 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Yeah. But is it fast? ;)

^^ BP V crossed the Atlantic at cruising speed of 40 kts +, the crew resting in the cockpit. Can we guess that, event smaller, they can go faster ?

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23 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ BP V crossed the Atlantic at cruising speed of 40 kts +, the crew resting in the cockpit. Can we guess that, event smaller, they can go faster ?

Well, given the right sea state, I would think it is obvious.  Big rollers, bad angles, then I would think the foiling could be a pretty bad option.  But otherwise, with the right sea state, I would have to think the foiling boat is not only faster, but smoother and less wear/tear on boat/crew.

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On 9/4/2017 at 5:54 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

Thks. The future of foiling.

I think most foilers will end up with flaps (or flexible 'morphing' wings on some - but not necessarily all - of their wings, if for no other reason than it significantly reduces the energy necessary to adjust lift. This especially applies to control surfaces like stabilizers. Certainly that is a huge benefit to a boat tha is going to lap the planet with a small crew.

But those type of mechanisms introduce compromises as well - specifically by introducing planform and geometric limitations - so it is quite possible that at the extreme performance end of things, the primary lifting foils will not be mechanically articulated.

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2 hours ago, surfsailor said:

But those type of mechanisms introduce compromises as well - specifically by introducing planform and geometric limitations - so it is quite possible that at the extreme performance end of things, the primary lifting foils will not be mechanically articulated.

I think the extreme end would like to have both, but flaps require straight sections so restrict shape. If you can work out how to make a curved hinge (especially in 3d) you'll make a fortune.B)

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Rapid adjustment capability from the main lifting foil(s) is not needed at all if it is located more center to rear with a "controlled foil" (probably flap like a moth or AOA adjustable like Trifoiler, however it could even be a simple Vee) way out front.  This concept was used for:

  • On 27 October 1991, Mark Drela pedalled the human-powered hydrofoil, Decavitator, to a world-record speed of 18.5 knots (9.53 meters/second) over a 100 meter race course

The web info on Decavitor is pretty detailed and interesting.  And by the way, Drela seems to be pretty well versed in all things related to foils (both air and hydo). 

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

I think the extreme end would like to have both, but flaps require straight sections so restrict shape. If you can work out how to make a curved hinge (especially in 3d) you'll make a fortune.B)

Flaps do not really require "straight sections".  Straight hinges do make them a lot easier though.  A flapped foil can have plenty of curvature from vertical to a more or less horizontal portion that is straight enough for a crescent shaped flap that would extend to the rear of the fixed portion.  The geometry would be fine for the hydrodynamics, but the flap actuation would not be a simple proposition. 

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5 hours ago, surfsailor said:

I think most foilers will end up with flaps (or flexible 'morphing' wings on some - but not necessarily all - of their wings, if for no other reason than it significantly reduces the energy necessary to adjust lift. This especially applies to control surfaces like stabilizers. Certainly that is a huge benefit to a boat tha is going to lap the planet with a small crew.

But those type of mechanisms introduce compromises as well - specifically by introducing planform and geometric limitations - so it is quite possible that at the extreme performance end of things, the primary lifting foils will not be mechanically articulated.

Extreme airplanes, like regular ones, have fixed wings and ailerons with flaps on both.

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Just spotted a video of the new Volvo 60 or "Super 60" they seem to be calling it.

This could be the most ridiculous theory, but any chance the new AC could adopt the same platform? Ray Davies appeared to be putting his input into the concept which may mean absolutely nothing.

GD was talking about the sport being fragmented, by doing this the AC is suddenly combining three of the biggest events and creating a great platform for new teams to enter and get great value out of one or two boats. Also would give any boat a lifespan... Would be great for sponsors!

Just a thought...... Tear me apart now....

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Extreme airplanes, like regular ones, have fixed wings and ailerons with flaps on both.

But with 'canting thrust'.......

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Extreme airplanes, like regular ones, have fixed wings and ailerons with flaps on both.

Well, I said 'quite possible'. But I was very much of the opinion that flaps would improve everything until a conversation with one of the AC designers over the summer made me rethink it. I now personally think there are better, more organic ways to skin that cat, but time will tell.

Planes are changing too:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121106-radical-planes-take-shape

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5 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Well, I said 'quite possible'. But I was very much of the opinion that flaps would improve everything until a conversation with one of the AC designers over the summer made me rethink it. I now personally think there are better, more organic ways to skin that cat, but time will tell.

Planes are changing too:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121106-radical-planes-take-shape

Thanks for the article.

Among what I read, the most efficient solution : "The Sugar Volt does this by using very long, narrow, flexible wings"

Nothing new however, the U2 has been using that concept for decades now.

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10 hours ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Just spotted a video of the new Volvo 60 or "Super 60" they seem to be calling it.

This could be the most ridiculous theory, but any chance the new AC could adopt the same platform? Ray Davies appeared to be putting his input into the concept which may mean absolutely nothing.

GD was talking about the sport being fragmented, by doing this the AC is suddenly combining three of the biggest events and creating a great platform for new teams to enter and get great value out of one or two boats. Also would give any boat a lifespan... Would be great for sponsors!

Just a thought...... Tear me apart now....

Rayzer was hired to be something of a liaison between the designers and the sailors, something he excels at.

 

I talk a walk through the mockup on Monday.  Pretty impressive.  Can't tell the hull lines from the mockup, but the deck is basically a more extreme version of Hugo Boss thanks to lower VCG.  Light weight comes from innovation in several main areas, especially propulsion.  No more Saildrives, thank jeebus.

Unfortunately not permitted to take pics or video.  

 

Did 45 minutes with Coxy about the new boat, the boatyard, some other fun topics.  45 minutes with Simeon.  20 minutes with Charlie.  Waiting to publish the podcast until after I do my hour with Bouwe.  Leon, the TV director, refused an interview because his feelings were hurt by my article about the female OBRs or lack thereof.  Thin skin doesn't bode well for the TV/Live/OBR package for the next race, especially if the budget has been pared back as much as is rumored.  

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Light weight comes from innovation in several main areas, especially propulsion.  No more Saildrives, thank jeebus.

 

 

What are they doing for propulsion?

 

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Unfortunately not permitted to take pics or video.  

 

That's ok, they published some a few weeks ago

m102724_crop169014_1024x576_proportional

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On 9/6/2017 at 0:33 PM, P Flados said:

Flaps do not really require "straight sections".  Straight hinges do make them a lot easier though.  A flapped foil can have plenty of curvature from vertical to a more or less horizontal portion that is straight enough for a crescent shaped flap that would extend to the rear of the fixed portion.  The geometry would be fine for the hydrodynamics, but the flap actuation would not be a simple proposition. 

Right, I guess what I meant was that hinges use straight sections. Do you have an example of a flap with a curved hinge?

I am also doubtful of "The geometry would be fine for the hydrodynamics". In my experience, even the slightest disturbance of smooth flow over foils is slow (turbulators may be an exception but I don't see anyone using them), so "straight enough" is unlikely to cut it.

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11 hours ago, RobG said:

Right, I guess what I meant was that hinges use straight sections. Do you have an example of a flap with a curved hinge?

I am also doubtful of "The geometry would be fine for the hydrodynamics". In my experience, even the slightest disturbance of smooth flow over foils is slow (turbulators may be an exception but I don't see anyone using them), so "straight enough" is unlikely to cut it.

Most any flap has some disturbance at the hinge line.

The standard moth approach minimizes the disturbance at the top surface which is probably where it matter the most.

In the quoted text, I was talking about the plan view geometry with a crecent flap behing a straight hinge.  The hinge itself would still be any one of the standard choices with applicable pros and cons. 

Again, the focus of the overall post was mostly that flaps choices are probably being constrained very much by the mechanics of actuating the flap.

I belive that if a the mechanics of a torque cable type drive were worked out and made more available, we would see some more creative approaches for overal foil shapes.  

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This article from La Stampa sees Patrizio Bertelli appear to confirm mono's

=======

Google Translate as follows

So, will we still see the flying catamarans? 
"No, you're back to monohulls."

Really? Has the deal reached with the New Zealanders? 
"It was the condition for us Red Moon to help them with men and means in the last edition."

When did the announcement of the Protocol (the new rules)? 
"At the end of the month".

It's a turning point for many, returning to monohulls. 
"They will be very powerful boats, but technical details, for example, with the foils (the drifts that lift them out of the water) or the tilting cheeks, we'll see them later."

Will it also come back to a challenge between nations, with the attachment of the passport for men and women, as it was in the past? 
"Yes, there will be limitations of nationality."

What do we do in Costa Smeralda? Are you buying a campaign? 
"Well yes".

Will it take pre-America Cup events in Italy too? 
"There will be racing racing in Italy, yes."

Rules of nationality apart, Luna Rossa will be a team of Italians? 
"Here in Porto Cervo have raced in the last few days the maxi yachts (in the Maxi Yacht Rolex Cup). How many Italian sailors are on these boats? Few. And most of all, I am fifty years old today who grew up with Luna Rossa, which I launched. Here, my future goal is to grow young Italian talents. "

A nice challenge. 
"We'll have to put on the sleeves. Also because I think we will not be the only team with the tricolor on the stern."

http://www.lastampa.it/2017/09/10/societa/mare/sport/bertelli-coppa-america-niente-pi-catamarani-si-torna-ai-monoscafi-GpvuHgfizhPmeravX31AJN/pagina.html

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Just now, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Haha - beat me to it by 10 secs !!

yes, but you translated an article :)

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Well, I don't know shit about foiling monos but I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume for the mean time at least that they will be better for match racing, because the cats were shit house.

Question remains however, if the keel cants by human power, will we be stuck with the same problem that it is far too costly to tack/gybe and therefore we are back to banging the boundaries?

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At least we now know the truth. ETNZ couldn't win the AC on their own and were prepared to sell their souls to win. 

It also makes Dalton and Bertelli look like even bigger dicks that they has looked before. I seem to remember both saying how important consultation was but instead they deceided this behind closed doors years ago. It was their right, but it confirms their hypocrisy over the years.

3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Well, I don't know shit about foiling monos but I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume for the mean time at least that they will be better for match racing, because the cats were shit house.

Anybody who thinks the rumoured foiling monos are going to be good for match racing is dreaming, although it doesn't really matter because I think the last time I saw decent match racing in monhulls in the AC was in 1983. People seem to have missed that there were more place changes in the cats than in the monos and I believe that the match racing was actually better than the monos. The cats starts were far more interesting than seeing who could stay head to wind for the longest. The reality is that the only way to get good match racing is to have one design boats. Otherwise, even a small difference in speed will always give a team enough of an advantage to win over a series.

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1 minute ago, Team_GBR said:

At least we now know the truth. ETNZ couldn't win the AC on their own and were prepared to sell their souls to win. 

It also makes Dalton and Bertelli look like even bigger dicks that they has looked before. I seem to remember both saying how important consultation was but instead they deceided this behind closed doors years ago. It was their right, but it confirms their hypocrisy over the years.

Anybody who thinks the rumoured foiling monos are going to be good for match racing is dreaming, although it doesn't really matter because I think the last time I saw decent match racing in monhulls in the AC was in 1983. People seem to have missed that there were more place changes in the cats than in the monos and I believe that the match racing was actually better than the monos. The cats starts were far more interesting than seeing who could stay head to wind for the longest. The reality is that the only way to get good match racing is to have one design boats. Otherwise, even a small difference in speed will always give a team enough of an advantage to win over a series.

Whilst I can't make any reasonable assertions with regards to foiling monos, I don't agree with regards to the cats nor the lack of match racing since '83.

 

I remember pretty clearly some decent match racing in '87, 95, 00, 03 and 07 - although not always in the cup itself.

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9 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I remember pretty clearly some decent match racing in '87, 95, 00, 03 and 07 - although not always in the cup itself.

I think you equate how close the boats sail to each other as being match racing but to me, it is not. If there was good match racing, the slower boats would win more races. Instead, if you have a faster boat, you will win over a series. It really is that simple. I watched a load of the old matches recently and I had not realised just how boring or pre-determined they really were. When was the last time there was a match that came down to the last race and was decided by the better match racers? Or even simply, when was the last time better match racing was the difference between the teams. I am not sure I can ever remember a case of that in the time I have followed the AC. It's a design challenge, where the teams simply need to be able to sail well enough.

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4 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I think you equate how close the boats sail to each other as being match racing but to me, it is not. If there was good match racing, the slower boats would win more races. Instead, if you have a faster boat, you will win over a series. It really is that simple. I watched a load of the old matches recently and I had not realised just how boring or pre-determined they really were. When was the last time there was a match that came down to the last race and was decided by the better match racers? Or even simply, when was the last time better match racing was the difference between the teams. I am not sure I can ever remember a case of that in the time I have followed the AC. It's a design challenge, where the teams simply need to be able to sail well enough.

So I can think of one really rather credible source who would disagree with you.

Do you remember which team's boat faced off against NZL32 in '95?

Do you remember which team sailed it?

Dennis CLEARLY would take umbrage with your point of view.

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30 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

At least we now know the truth. ETNZ couldn't win the AC on their own and were prepared to sell their souls to win. 

It also makes Dalton and Bertelli look like even bigger dicks that they has looked before. I seem to remember both saying how important consultation was but instead they deceided this behind closed doors years ago. It was their right, but it confirms their hypocrisy over the years.

Anybody who thinks the rumoured foiling monos are going to be good for match racing is dreaming, although it doesn't really matter because I think the last time I saw decent match racing in monhulls in the AC was in 1983. People seem to have missed that there were more place changes in the cats than in the monos and I believe that the match racing was actually better than the monos. The cats starts were far more interesting than seeing who could stay head to wind for the longest. The reality is that the only way to get good match racing is to have one design boats. Otherwise, even a small difference in speed will always give a team enough of an advantage to win over a series.

Wrong. The reason why they took so long to reveal the new boat is because they asked all the potential challengers on the idea of foiling monohulls before it was finalized.

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Bitch, bitch, moan, moan....mono this, multi that. Whinge, whinge, wha, wha.

Too fucking bad.

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18 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Bitch, bitch, moan, moan....mono this, multi that. Whinge, whinge, wha, wha.

Too fucking bad.

LOL! +1

ETNZ cut a deal with LR in order to secure the means to break the Evil Empire's grip on the cup.

Time to take a hot cup of concrete and harden the fuck up.

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32 minutes ago, jaysper said:

So I can think of one really rather credible source who would disagree with you.

Do you remember which team's boat faced off against NZL32 in '95?

Do you remember which team sailed it?

Dennis CLEARLY would take umbrage with your point of view.

I presume you referring to the gross ineptitude of Pact 95 on Young America. DC wasn't so much as a better match racer (although he was) as the opposition were dire. Little good swapping boats did him. Once up against a proper team that sailed with some degree of skill, he stood no chance even though I would suggest that DC was the best match racer at that event. In the modern era, I cannot see that ever happening again. Now you tend to see the designers screw up rather than the sailors.

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I think you equate how close the boats sail to each other as being match racing but to me, it is not. If there was good match racing, the slower boats would win more races. Instead, if you have a faster boat, you will win over a series. It really is that simple. I watched a load of the old matches recently and I had not realised just how boring or pre-determined they really were. When was the last time there was a match that came down to the last race and was decided by the better match racers? Or even simply, when was the last time better match racing was the difference between the teams. I am not sure I can ever remember a case of that in the time I have followed the AC. It's a design challenge, where the teams simply need to be able to sail well enough.

Go back and watch the Louis Vuitton Final from 2000. That series was decided by the better match racing team. Yes, America One blew out 7 spinnakers that event, but they also won a race after blowing out their spinnaker. The Prada Challenge won that series because they sailed better than America One. They were not clearly faster than America One. The races were fantastic! They were close and had all the drama worthy of an Americas Cup. Those two boats, and those two teams were very similar. It came down to who sailed the better race tactically. 

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7 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Go back and watch the Louis Vuitton Final from 2000. That series was decided by the better match racing team. Yes, America One blew out 7 spinnakers that event, but they also won a race after blowing out their spinnaker. The Prada Challenge won that series because they sailed better than America One. They were not clearly faster than America One. The races were fantastic! They were close and had all the drama worthy of an Americas Cup. Those two boats, and those two teams were very similar. It came down to who sailed the better race tactically. 

The fact that he discounted the defender finals in 95 shows a clear bias. There will be no getting through to him.

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4 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Bitch, bitch, moan, moan....mono this, multi that. Whinge, whinge, wha, wha.

Too fucking bad.

That's right. All the Kiwi supporters here have always been stoical and uncomplaining about everything OTUSA ever did so it's terribly unfair that anyone should now criticise ENTZ.

So much for Dalton's moral outrage on the Framework Agreement. He couldn't sign it because he was already Bertelli's contracted whore and now has the former paymaster as CoR.

Not an encouraging start for the purported return to traditional AC values.

As far as a return to monohulls goes, good. I never did get to love the cats.

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Who said there would be a keel and lead?

A mono hull can also mean a lot of different shapes.

Where are they going to sail? Around the islands. In a harbor. A lake. A river. 

We don"t know shit yet.

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On 27/06/2017 at 5:50 PM, Bill R said:

How about a super sized 18ft skiffs. The 18 footers are exciting to watch, if they crash you can get them back up and sailing again. Is it feasible to make them 50ft long with just enough lead in the keel to stop them turning turtle? 10 crew on trapezes at 30 knots bouncing over waves, Is it possible?

Nice idea, but an 18ft Skiff is 155kg, crew weight is about 250kg.

So, to scale up and have a crew that weighs almost 2x your boat weight on a huge boat that won't remain upright without perfect crew balance could be dangerous &  prohibitively expensive.. 

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5 hours ago, jaysper said:

Well, I don't know shit about foiling foil assisted monos but I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume for the mean time at least that they will be better for match racing, because the cats were shit house.

Question remains however, if the keel cants by human power, will we be stuck with the same problem that it is far too costly to tack/gybe and therefore we are back to banging the boundaries?

should be good watching boats that can't get within 3+ metres of each other go match racing

given GDs outspoken distaste for the cycling/pumps element of the last series, I dare say they would allow a generator for keel hydraulics and possibly winches

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43 minutes ago, Billy Bob said:

Who said there would be a keel and lead?

A mono hull can also mean a lot of different shapes.

Where are they going to sail? Around the islands. In a harbor. A lake. A river. 

We don"t know shit yet.

My thoughts also, you could have some form of wide tri-foiler, or other,  that was still "technically" a Monohull, possibly without lead. 

It depends how romantic they want to get with Monohulls of the past.

Sometimes I think guys like Troublé and Bertelli would have the crew in Caps, 3/4 pants and blue/white striped shirts, pulling hemp ropes... 

One of the big mono attractions was Spinnakers and the wind shadow advantage of the trailing boat downwind.

Also the close side by side racing will be unlikely / dangerous if you have large Carbon foiling blades,  like can openers at the beam of each boat... 

It's likely they can design a foiling mono to be too quick for a kite, so I start to lose the picture of the benefits of changing... 

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Thank God for small mercy's. Back to monohulls.

Although I loved watching the speed of the cats. Except for the odd race with a few place changes, it was all pretty mundane. First up was always best dressed around the top mark. Not too many changes.

I hope (and think) we will see more exciting races with the mono-hulls. They will be very fast, very twitchy, and bloody difficult to sail. Will rely on crew work and not just having a stable (ish ... ) platform to sail on.

Just hope the Aussies do get a team together. Both the Kiwis and the Aussies have the most experienced sailors in the AC, so the other countries will have to pull up the old proverbial sox a tad.

I also see the odd comment about Dalton being an Italian poodle by returning to a monohull. Tell 'em 'es dreamin' mate. Bloody dreamin'. Dalts has always wanted monohulls and not cats. That being said, it is frankly bloody hilarious that some people think that Dalt's is a poodle. Not Dalton mate, not 'im. Some people just don't fuckin' know.

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3 minutes ago, Kia Ora said:

Just hope the Aussies do get a team together. Both the Kiwis and the Aussies have the most experienced sailors in the AC, so the other countries will have to pull up the old proverbial sox a tad.

If they bring in strict nationality rules, then the Aus Government will need to subsidise a challenge to keep all of our sailors in work ;)

I suspect that monos and a good supply of available sailors might motivate the establishment of a challenge syndicate or maybe two.

An Oatley family syndicate would make a nice tribute to Bob.

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1 minute ago, hoppy said:

If they bring in strict nationality rules, then the Aus Government will need to subsidise a challenge to keep all of our sailors in work ;)

I suspect that monos and a good supply of available sailors might motivate the establishment of a challenge syndicate or maybe two.

An Oatley family syndicate would make a nice tribute to Bob.

That would be very special.

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19 minutes ago, Kia Ora said:

I also see the odd comment about Dalton being an Italian poodle by returning to a monohull. Tell 'em 'es dreamin' mate. Bloody dreamin'. Dalts has always wanted monohulls and not cats. That being said, it is frankly bloody hilarious that some people think that Dalt's is a poodle. Not Dalton mate, not 'im. Some people just don't fuckin' know.

 

Is that so? Compare and contrast Dalton's comments immediately after the Match with what has actually happened so far (i.e. fuck all) It is quite clear that he is no longer in charge of events,

 

.

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13 minutes ago, Kia Ora said:

That would be very special.

and a win by an Oatley family syndicate would probably drive a sensible marina expansion at Hamilton that would not become a white elephant after the cup has moved on. It could drive the HIRW to becoming even bigger and more international.

A challenge could make financial sense and as the cup is under new management, perhaps the issues that caused Bob to pull the plug on his challenge might give the family the motivation to make the effort. 

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"There is an overall desire to have a spectacular monohull yacht that will be exciting to match race, but also one that the public and sailors can relate to as a sail boat that really challenges a full crew of professional yachtsman around the race track,"

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On 9/6/2017 at 6:54 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

Rayzer was hired to be something of a liaison between the designers and the sailors, something he excels at.

 

I talk a walk through the mockup on Monday.  Pretty impressive.  Can't tell the hull lines from the mockup, but the deck is basically a more extreme version of Hugo Boss thanks to lower VCG.  Light weight comes from innovation in several main areas, especially propulsion.  No more Saildrives, thank jeebus.

Unfortunately not permitted to take pics or video.  

 

Did 45 minutes with Coxy about the new boat, the boatyard, some other fun topics.  45 minutes with Simeon.  20 minutes with Charlie.  Waiting to publish the podcast until after I do my hour with Bouwe.  Leon, the TV director, refused an interview because his feelings were hurt by my article about the female OBRs or lack thereof.  Thin skin doesn't bode well for the TV/Live/OBR package for the next race, especially if the budget has been pared back as much as is rumored.  

 

 

 

Seems there is more than meets the eye on this one.... 

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

That's right. All the Kiwi supporters here have always been stoical and uncomplaining about everything OTUSA ever did so it's terribly unfair that anyone should now criticise ENTZ.

So much for Dalton's moral outrage on the Framework Agreement. He couldn't sign it because he was already Bertelli's contracted whore and now has the former paymaster as CoR.

Not an encouraging start for the purported return to traditional AC values.

As far as a return to monohulls goes, good. I never did get to love the cats.

They had an agreement and they are going to honour it. Big fucking whoop!

Wanna bitch about something? Bitch about the hypocrisy of decrying the need for cyclors whilst proposing a class that may well result in diesel or electric powered caning keels.

Now THAT is a nasty prospect IMO. 

However there is NOTHING so far that etnz has done that is unfair.

ZERO. ZIP. NADA.

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Will only be fast if it one step up from a foiling Moth - which means no stupid lead ballast - but a large crew - so how big, maybe 30 foot would be the maximum? Not going to happen is it?. If it is going to be a gutted Open 60 clone, then how boring is that? Totally fucked thinking?

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

 ... a class that may well result in diesel or electric powered caning keels.

Now THAT is a nasty prospect IMO. 

 

Diesel powered caning keels ... nasty prospect indeed :D

 

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2 minutes ago, Xlot said:

 

Diesel powered caning keels ... nasty prospect indeed :D

 

Lol! We'll played! :P

But seriously. If having cyclors is not real enough sailing for ENTZ then surely diesel or electric powered is REALLY not?

I hope they don't go down this route.

I will still watch of course because it's etnz. But.....I will be no more pleased than I was with the cats.

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Hahaha, this is good fun. AC going "back" to "monohulls" with appendages that serves the same purpose as the extra hulls on a multihull. Because sailors can relate to monohulls...

It will probably be good fun anyway, so bring it on.

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4 hours ago, dogwatch said:

So much for Dalton's moral outrage on the Framework Agreement. He couldn't sign it because he was already Bertelli's contracted whore and now has the former paymaster as CoR.

+1

Don't expect the TNZ fanboys to get it, but Dalts signed his own framework agreement way before the others did. His bitching about their framework agreement was totally hypocritical and based on a big lie. To say he wouldn't sign up for the reasons he gave was deceitful in the extreme. As for his comments after winning the cup about needing to consult with all existing teams, again that was pure bullshit. It really says something about the fanboys that they think the sun shines out of his arse.

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Fuck you're a whiner. Nothing has been announced yet. Let's see what that is before we get all antsy, ok?

I didn't like the protocol and shifting ruleset of AC35. I won't be happy if AC36 is at all similar.

ETNZ won AC35. They get to agree rules with their COR. Maybe they had some discussions with LR ahead of winning AC35.  They'd have been mad not to. Hasn't this been the usual state of affairs since the 90s at least?

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

They had an agreement and they are going to honour it. Big fucking whoop!

Wanna bitch about something? Bitch about the hypocrisy of decrying the need for cyclors whilst proposing a class that may well result in diesel or electric powered caning keels.

Now THAT is a nasty prospect IMO. 

Canting keels. Don't think the event is going to be in Singapore.

If they are engine-powered, I won't be cheering.

Quote

However there is NOTHING so far that etnz has done that is unfair.

ZERO. ZIP. NADA.

Given they have published nothing so far, that isn't setting the bar very high.

But I wonder what the reaction would have been if another team held the Cup today and it turned out that they were financially and contractually beholden to their selected CoR?

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It's gonna be a 49er isn't it? Makes sense when you've got Pete and Blair on your books.

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15 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I think the last time I saw decent match racing in monhulls in the AC was in 1983. 

you should have watched the ac more....  

 

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A step in the right direction and the  AC just started to become relevant to sailors again .

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6 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Canting keels. Don't think the event is going to be in Singapore.

If they are engine-powered, I won't be cheering.

Given they have published nothing so far, that isn't setting the bar very high.

But I wonder what the reaction would have been if another team held the Cup today and it turned out that they were financially and contractually beholden to their selected CoR?

"Given they have published nothing so far, that isn't setting the bar very high" ITS SEPTEMBER. THE CUP ONLY FINISHED IN JULY FFS!!!!

This next event will be the Americas Cup, not that circus sideshow Oracle put on. And every team will be out to win the cup, not help the defender retain it!

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7 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

+1

Don't expect the TNZ fanboys to get it, but Dalts signed his own framework agreement way before the others did. His bitching about their framework agreement was totally hypocritical and based on a big lie. To say he wouldn't sign up for the reasons he gave was deceitful in the extreme. As for his comments after winning the cup about needing to consult with all existing teams, again that was pure bullshit. It really says something about the fanboys that they think the sun shines out of his arse.

It also makes you wonder how long of a design lead-time ETNZ and LR have held secret.

Patrizio B pulling the rug out from under the coming announcement and effectively taking the wind out of a big part of the Protocol, was one thing. His doing so certainly caught ETNZ by surprise, it took hours for them to decide how to respond.

But his admitting that it had already been in the works for such a long time, a 'condition' accepted by ETNZ for the help provided, was maybe an even bigger deal. It has long been suspected that P$B had them by the balls in some way, had seemingly bought them off, but he confirmed it in even more stark terms than what many of us suspected.

The foiling mono, that even ETNZ is now suddenly forced to admit has already been in design, may somehow turn out to be a great boat. But it sure looks like a case of fund-raiser GD $elling out of a big part of the Protocol and if GD already knew he'd done this but then hid the fact from everyone else until forced to admit it, well.. It's unfortunately not a good look. As to behaving in a trustworthy way, as to 'restoring Dignity to the Cup' or whatever the line was, well it just doesn't portend very well... 

And since aside from 'a few date details' (as GD said just last week) the Protocol has been said to have been completed and agreed to a long time ago, well you also have to wonder how much other detail they've been withholding, keeping to themselves. One example is the 'event in Italy' that P$B also revealed but there is surely a lot more in any Protocol. 

 

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1 hour ago, Sticky Icky said:

you should have watched the ac more....  

 

Now THAT's some boat racing! As much as I enjoyed the foiling cats, I think this ^, closely matched monos, is far better match racing. Foiling monos? They seem good for distance racing, but I'd like to see some close in match racing to see how it goes before getting behind the idea. Has it been done?

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

It also makes you wonder how long of a design lead-time ETNZ and LR have held secret.

Patrizio B pulling the rug out from under the coming announcement and effectively taking the wind out of a big part of the Protocol, was one thing. His doing so certainly caught ETNZ by surprise, it took hours for them to decide how to respond.

But his admitting that it had already been in the works for such a long time, a 'condition' accepted by ETNZ for the help provided, was maybe an even bigger deal. It has long been suspected that P$B had them by the balls in some way, had seemingly bought them off, but he confirmed it in even more stark terms than what many of us suspected.

The foiling mono, that even ETNZ is now suddenly forced to admit has already been in design, may somehow turn out to be a great boat. But it sure looks like a case of fund-raiser GD $elling out of a big part of the Protocol and if GD already knew he'd done this but then hid the fact from everyone else until forced to admit it, well.. It's unfortunately not a good look. As to behaving in a trustworthy way, as to 'restoring Dignity to the Cup' or whatever the line was, well it just doesn't portend very well... 

And since aside from 'a few date details' (as GD said just last week) the Protocol has been said to have been completed and agreed to a long time ago, well you also have to wonder how much other detail they've been withholding, keeping to themselves. One example is the 'event in Italy' that P$B also revealed but there is surely a lot more in any Protocol. 

 

So ETNZ had worked out a protocol last time, so what? They got within one race of winning the thing, so they prepared themselves. That's good management. They just lost the match, so they never became defender. It was the same thing this time, the difference being they already had a near complete protocol from last time that they could use.

It was Oracle/ ACEA's horrible mis-management of the event that enabled the ETNZ/ Luna Rossa agreement in the first place. 

Secondly, when you negotiate a deal with someone, both parties have to compromise. This is what happened between the two parties, Luna Rossa gave ETNZ a leg-up, after Oracle and ACEA almost destroyed them, and in return Luna Rossa got to choose the class of boat (which, by the way is both outlined in the Deed of Gift, and in terms of a monohull, was always, Grant Dalton's, and Patrizio Bertellis preferred option).

Third, it is inherent that if you are a team designing an Americas Cup Class boat, that you will have somewhat of a larger lead time than the other teams simply because you are the one designing the boat. Oracle had it last time with both the AC72, and the AC50. If you design a boat, its your ideas, your concepts, and your decision, therefor you are going to have to design, test and build a prototype just to ensure the design works. But then again, being defender does give you the right to, alongside the CoR choose the class of boat to be raced. 

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Quote

Emirates Team New Zealand have been consulting with a number of potential challengers and there is an overall desire to have a spectacular monohull yacht that will be exciting to match race, but also one that the public and sailors can relate to as a sail boat that really challenges a full crew of professional yachtsman around the race track. 

You have to love the lies being told to justify a decision made a long time before any consulting began. The fact is that Dalton has spoken to OR, SBTJ, Artemis, GTF and Alinghi all of who told him that if it was in monos, they were out but they would compete in cats. BAR have said they will sail with whatever boat is chosen bu their preference is cats. So 6 teams prefer cats and would race with them and 5 won't be there because it's not cats. The defender and COR now need to find 5 high quality teams to replace them.

The only thing I believe they have got right in that announcement is the desire to have a boat that challenges a full crew. The rest is mushroom food.

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9 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Canting keels. Don't think the event is going to be in Singapore.

If they are engine-powered, I won't be cheering.

Given they have published nothing so far, that isn't setting the bar very high.

But I wonder what the reaction would have been if another team held the Cup today and it turned out that they were financially and contractually beholden to their selected CoR?

Actually, they are CONTRACTUALLY beholden but where is the financial aspect? I don't see one.

I was never a fan of the framework agreement because it was Orifice trying to dictate the nature of AC35 EVEN IF THEY LOST. In this case, ETNZ's agreement dictated some aspect of the AC ASSUMING THEY WON!

Yes, they haven't published anything thus far, your point is what?

Once they have published something, THEN criticise that.

I for one am more than a little sceptical about foiling monos and reserve the right to piss and moan relentlessly about that in the future if the keels end up canting with stored energy.

I also hated the AC50s.

Difference is that I accept that Orifice had the right to set the class rules ANY WAY THEY FUCKING WANTED and so do ETNZ.

The real issue with Orifice is the constant chopping and changing of rules. I don't remember ANY previous AC where they chopped 10 foot of the length of the fucking class rule half way through the cycle. Disgraceful!

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"A lot of teams" might leave. So realistically, who will leave that will have a real impact? Oracle? well, a lot would probably say good riddance. Team Japan, well lets be honest, they weren't really in it to win it were they. They were there with the express purpose of helping Oracle retain, so again, good riddance. Artemis, well, yes it would be a shame, but if they are as committed to winning the Cup as they say they are, they'll be back no matter what class of boat it is, just as BAR are. The French, who knows. So we will definitely have Luna Rossa, ETNZ, and LR BAR. Thats already half the number of teams that were in Bermuda, and thats before any official announcements are made. If Oracle doesn't challenge, that puts A LOT of Aussie talent on the market, who I'm sure will be snapped up early. Spithill, Slingsby, Outteridge are great examples. Being so close, IMO there will be an Australian challenge, especially given the event will be contested in Mono's. 

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New day, same old shit. Avoiding the ral issue as usual. ETNZ has already started lying . They state that there is and overall desire among potential challengers to go back to monos. It is a lie. Do the maths. How many can he have been talking to? Of 6 potential challengers I can name, all 6 prefer cats. That means ETNZ can name another 7 potential challengers who want monos? I Don't think so. At least Oracle hd the balls to simply say that they thought potential teams were wrong and they were going with cats anyway, whatever the others thought. 

The fact is that ETNZ made a deal without consultation and now they are trying to justify it. I know that the fanboys would have been all over this if it had been done by any other team, but with ETNZ it is acceptable to do deals behind everybody's back, to bullshit about consultation even when there was no point in consulting because it was already a done deal.

I think that Oracle were the worst behaved defender ever, but at least they got one thing right. They commissioned an outsider to write the design rules. ETNZ have admitted they have their designers working on the design rule. Back in the dark days of AC33, exactly that sort of behaviour was condemned by Dalton as giving the defender too much advantage so I am surprised to see ETNZ doing something the had condemned as unfair by others. I am not sure why I expected better., but I did.

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3 hours ago, maxmini said:

A step in the right direction and the  AC just started to become relevant to sailors again .

To use a German phrase jein (yes and no).

If these things are all man-powered, then absolutely.

If they allow electric or diesel to move shit around, then maybe not?

Dunno - I'm hopeful, but taking a wait and see approach.

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^ The first 3 you mention are, like the LR team you love, Billionaire backed and potentially powerful contenders.

Ainslie has been pretty viciously insulted by LR's Max Sirena, and also kept in the dark by GD.

That leaves only ETNZ and their apparent-master LR, plus a long shot and cash strapped TF, as all that's left of your list. 

Vincenzo Onorato is being touted in Italian media as being the possible other Italian entry that P$B referred to but do you really think he'd run a powerful challenge?

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4 minutes ago, jaysper said:

To use a German phrase jein (yes and no).

If these things are all man-powered, then absolutely.

If they allow electric or diesel to move shit around, then maybe not?

Dunno - I'm hopeful, but taking a wait and see approach.

The Google tran suggests that P$B flat out said they are canters. How can you possibly pull that off without the boats having engines?

Canting keels may also prove problematic facilities/location-wise, unless they can get dredging permits?

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TE seems to support ETNZ's assertion that the pool of likely challengers support monos:

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/09/11/AC36-ETNZ-confirm-high-performance-monohull-for-the-next-Cup-happy-days-are-here-again

I got this one way wrong, as I thought ETNZ and LR would want to stay in multis given the design edge they've built up over the last two cycles (ETNZ in particular).  Personally though, I'm looking forward to a return to monos as the AC50s really didn't cut it as AC boats and for multis to survive it probably needed a move back to something closer to the majestic 72s but that was never realistic.  

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41 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

The Google tran suggests that P$B flat out said they are canters. How can you possibly pull that off without the boats having engines?

Canting keels may also prove problematic facilities/location-wise, unless they can get dredging permits?

Like I said, I reserve the right to piss and moan as much about these boats as the 50s if I don't like them.

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5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You have to love the lies being told to justify a decision made a long time before any consulting began. The fact is that Dalton has spoken to OR, SBTJ, Artemis, GTF and Alinghi all of who told him that if it was in monos, they were out but they would compete in cats. BAR have said they will sail with whatever boat is chosen bu their preference is cats. So 6 teams prefer cats and would race with them and 5 won't be there because it's not cats. The defender and COR now need to find 5 high quality teams to replace them.

The only thing I believe they have got right in that announcement is the desire to have a boat that challenges a full crew. The rest is mushroom food.

There only needs to be one challenger.  If the others want to take their ball and go home it is their loss.

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1 hour ago, sailman said:

There only needs to be one challenger.  If the others want to take their ball and go home it is their loss.

I think you are missing what was being said. What is the point in claiming you "consulted" when the outcome was already decided? That cannot be a consultation. Why not just come clean. If they had said that they were going back to monohulls because that is what they thought was right or even what they wanted, I would have no issues at all, but t claim consultation when the issue was already decided is pretty lame.

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The only ones saying they weren't consulted are those that didn't get what they wanted. 

SI puts it pretty well including pointing out that a number of challengers had the defender behind them to some degree. Surely that's the greatest abomination of all?

Winners make the rules  suck it up or go do your own thing  etnz did the former, won and get to decide.

Where the credit for walking away from the superiority they exhibited over every other team in the foiling cats and moving to a whole new class?

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8 minutes ago, PJB said:

The only ones saying they weren't consulted are those that didn't get what they wanted. 

SI puts it pretty well including pointing out that a number of challengers had the defender behind them to some degree. Surely that's the greatest abomination of all?

Winners make the rules  suck it up or go do your own thing  etnz did the former, won and get to decide.

Where the credit for walking away from the superiority they exhibited over every other team in the foiling cats and moving to a whole new class?

ETNZ didn't walk away from cats because they wanted to be superior, they walked away from cats because LR told them they had to, as per their agreement.  If Dalton had his drathers, this time around would be in cats not monos.

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33 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

I think you are missing what was being said. What is the point in claiming you "consulted" when the outcome was already decided? That cannot be a consultation. Why not just come clean. If they had said that they were going back to monohulls because that is what they thought was right or even what they wanted, I would have no issues at all, but t claim consultation when the issue was already decided is pretty lame.

Being consulted doesn't mean you get a veto on the class rules. If you want that, you become the challenger of record or defender.

They have stated that they have consulted with people about the details of the class rule rather than whether or not the boat would be a mono-foiler or not.

if you expected them to listen to people and go "Oh sorry, my bad - we'll continue with the AC50s or some shit that YOU prefer", then you are delusional.

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I must admit I did like the cats, and I'm still watching AC35, especially after a few drinks and what not. They just looked awesome flying along so fast and smooth, for me there is something ethereal about them. However, I'm an opened minded guy and a spectacular mono is something I could get on board with. May be a scaled down Comanche on foils? Personally I'd have loved to see a Tri - which is the ultimate sailing config imo.

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6 hours ago, jaysper said:

Like I said, I reserve the right to piss and moan as much about these boats as the 50s if I don't like them.

Giving it a good nudge there already too, by the sound, Jays. You aren't really expecting keels to be canted using human dyno-power are you FFS?

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On the subject of canting keels for monos and stored energy. Rather than a generator or 6 guys sitting on bikes generating hydraulic pressure - why not stored energy but a fixed amount? Everybody gets a one-design Li-ion battery pack.

Each Team gets to decide how many cants they can get out of a race before the battery starts to get weak and moving the keel takes longer... interesting strategic choices. 

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26 minutes ago, Zonker said:

On the subject of canting keels for monos and stored energy. Rather than a generator or 6 guys sitting on bikes generating hydraulic pressure - why not stored energy but a fixed amount? Everybody gets a one-design Li-ion battery pack.

Each Team gets to decide how many cants they can get out of a race before the battery starts to get weak and moving the keel takes longer... interesting strategic choices. 

Sort of like a nautical " push to pass " situation similar to the Indy car series.

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39 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Giving it a good nudge there already too, by the sound, Jays. You aren't really expecting keels to be canted using human dyno-power are you FFS?

No I'm not. But if they have canting keels (which of course would need external power) then I am placing a reservation on the piss and moan table.

Honestly SBD, do you think having electric or diesel is any more palatable than cyclors? I don't. 

Someone suggested they might not need keels at all, so I shall be crossing my fingers for that.

Either way I'm not interested in being a hypocrite. I pissed and moaned about the cats and dammit I am gonna piss and moan about the next boat if I don't like it! :D

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4 hours ago, sailman said:

There only needs to be one challenger. 

Well no. If ETNZ wishes to continue to suck at the teat of the Kiwi taxpayer, which it appears it does, then to make the business case stack up there need to be multiple challengers.

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2 hours ago, PJB said:

Winners make the rules  suck it up or go do your own thing  etnz did the former, won and get to decide.

No they don't get to decide. They gave up that right during AC35 in return for a subsidy from Bertelli.

 

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52 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

No they don't get to decide. They gave up that right during AC35 in return for a subsidy from Bertelli.

 

And that is a decision THEY made.

See how that works? 

I have to say after having poodle CoRs for so long, it is incredibly refreshing to have a change to poodle defender! ROFLMFAO! 

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

On the subject of canting keels for monos and stored energy. Rather than a generator or 6 guys sitting on bikes generating hydraulic pressure - why not stored energy but a fixed amount? Everybody gets a one-design Li-ion battery pack.

Each Team gets to decide how many cants they can get out of a race before the battery starts to get weak and moving the keel takes longer... interesting strategic choices. 

Ah.... and what to do about wind shifts? We'll still be having those, right? Sailing a knock ain't too smart, most of the time.

Or do your prefer sailing a lottery?

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42 minutes ago, jaysper said:

And that is a decision THEY made.

See how that works? 

I have to say after having poodle CoRs for so long, it is incredibly refreshing to have a change to poodle defender! ROFLMFAO! 

:D

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Well no. If ETNZ wishes to continue to suck at the teat of the Kiwi taxpayer, which it appears it does, then to make the business case stack up there need to be multiple challengers.

It's a National disgrace in this country that more than 40% of taxpayers pay negative tax*. Social welfare is rampant here.

No need for ETNZ to swim against the tide. ;)

 

* A table from Finance Minister Bill English's office shows 663,000 households - or 40 per cent - receive more in tax credits and other benefits than they pay in tax. Thousands more are neutral contributors, or are close to it".

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

No they don't get to decide. They gave up that right during AC35 in return for a subsidy from Bertelli.

 

Not quite how it worked, DW. Bertelli said, "We'll help on condition you go back to monos, if you win".

GD said, "That's fine Cobber, we were going there anyway. But these will be no ordinary monos. They will be extraordinary - with foils and shit, mate".

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29 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

It's a National disgrace in this country that more than 40% of taxpayers pay negative tax*. Social welfare is rampant here.

No need for ETNZ to swim against the tide. ;)

 

* A table from Finance Minister Bill English's office shows 663,000 households - or 40 per cent - receive more in tax credits and other benefits than they pay in tax. Thousands more are neutral contributors, or are close to it".

And 33% of NZers have a negative nett worth at 40 years of age.

Ironically I suspect there is a pretty fucking massive intersection between those two groups.

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Artemis Racing's future depends on the Nationality Requirement and not on the Boat. I can't see ETNZ allowing NO or IP to stay with ART. They're an Australian & a Brit respectivly. ART is done if the Requirement is north of 50% IMO.

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4 hours ago, dogwatch said:

No they don't get to decide. They gave up that right during AC35 in return for a subsidy from Bertelli.

 

Dream on...without agreement under mutual consent, Dalton will tell Bertelli to turn up in 10 months in a 90' x 90' flyer.

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15 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

The fact is that Dalton has spoken to OR, SBTJ, Artemis, GTF and Alinghi all of who told him that if it was in monos, they were out but they would compete in cats.

Link?

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14 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

They state that there is and overall desire among potential challengers to go back to monos. It is a lie. Do the maths.

Provide the fucking link.

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25 minutes ago, DayTripper said:

Provide the fucking link.

Let him have his dreams....

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