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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

The Next Boat-----2020

815 posts in this topic

Of course there isn't a link. Team_GBR claims inside knowledge. We will know in the next couple of months if Team_GBR's assertion is false. We can't know if it true because there's a very real possibility some of those teams are out regardless.

 

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I guess if they go with canting keels (and why wouldn't they for performance), they could have a small motor inside to run the hydraulics. Better make it a one design motor then - otherwise I'd be souping up my Hayabusa motor with a turbo or NO2 and be able to roll tack the boat by canting the keel very very quickly!

OK - based on the quote below maybe I don't need turbo Hayabusa level power...

How about this - http://www.rotronuav.com/engines/rt-300hfe  31 HP / 12 kg bare block rotary UAV engine. Probably has a TBO of <100 hrs but that's OK. Runs on JP-5, JP-8 and Jet A-1. Maybe it can run on #2 Diesel too.

ETNZ better write the rules pretty carefully on this one. An engine arms race will result otherwise.

 

 

Quote

 

Sean Langman, a Hobart Race veteran and one of Australia’s most respected yachtsmen, is far from happy with some of those changes.

“There is,” he says, “a false perception in high-end competitive sailing that says that if you’re any good you progress toward the super maxi kind of boat.

“But believe me, I’ve been there, and, having done that, I’m able to say without hesitation that push-button Super Maxi sailing is the least rewarding experience I’ve ever had.

“For those of us who know the exhilaration, the exultation of going to sea in a purely wind-driven vessel, the idea of having a noisy diesel engine revving away, all day, every day, during a race seems totally out of whack.

“The rate of the engine’s revolutions changes according to the output required of the hydraulic drives. Each time a new function is required, a new button is pushed and the engine revs its head off.

“It’s not a constant background drone. It’s a sudden dramatic screaming that generally coincides with manoeuvres, which is when the crew’s anxieties are at their highest. If you are of a nervous disposition it can be pretty unsettling.

“Wild Oats XI has a 150hp diesel that runs 24-7 during the Hobart Race. Without it, it is virtually impossible to sail the boat. If the engine stops they’re out of the race. No engine, no sail.

“I think this is wrong for the sport. If people want to use this sort of power for purely cruising purposes, I can accept that, but not for racing.”

Langman explained that the power transfer system is computer-controlled and programmed to give priority to areas such as shifting the canting keel and in a gybing manoeuvre to the mainsail winch. Through these manoeuvres, he says, the engine can be overloaded and stall. And when that happens there is no hand-winding system as back-up.

“On a Super Maxi,” he told me, “the crew spend the majority of their time praying.” 
Really? Praying for what?

“They’re praying that the engine keeps working,” he said. “You’re on a sailing boat and yet you rely completely on machinery to go on sailing. I find this to be such a negative part of the sport. You might as well be at home sitting in a shower, tearing up $100 bills.”


 

 

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On 9/11/2017 at 10:51 PM, Terry Hollis said:

America's Cup monohull v catamaran: The boat design change explained

DUNCAN JOHNSTONE

Interesting article. I'm not a fan of Dickson, but he is right on the button in the article.

There is the odd chap in here that are of the opinion that Dalts is a poodle and under Bert's thumb. If you chat with GD you will find he always wanted to return to mono's anyway. Good move then. Agree with mono's and get the dosh. No worries.

Regarding discussion of power for canting keels and water ballast. Forget cyclors, forget diesel or petrol engines. Electric motors and batteries for the canting keel and water pumps. The only way to go. All trimming must be done by grinders with no power.

Number of challenges? Who really knows. Rumours are there is more than one from the US. There are  the UK and Sweden and most likely Aus. Japan and France are possibles. The return to mono-hulls is seen as positive by a large percentage of racers. These are what I loosely describe as "true blue" racers. Look at the numbers in large racing mono's. Fastnet. Volvo. Rolex. Sydney Hobart. TP 52. Antigua classic. To mention but a few. How many fleets of large cats are there? Sod all.

I see the return to mono as very positive and looking forward to Auckland.

Seriously, you don't have to be a weather man to see which way the wind blows.

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I'd like to see close match racing as follows:

Weather leg:

Sailing very close angles and minimize the cost of a tack.  I think you could do this with a minimal bulb on a deep keel, fixed in position.  No need to foil going upwind, it's tactically more interesting to have similar speeds anyway.  Tacking & trimming will require plenty of muscle / teamwork

Reaching leg(s):

Deploy something like a Code Zero, a DSS foil and blast off.  Maybe allow foils but don't cant the keel?

It would be interesting to cant the keel by using wind power, drop the keel, heel the boat like crazy and then jibe, maybe with limited canting moment?

Downwind:

Sail changes are interesting and require teamwork / more sailors.  Seems like you need to limit downwind speed to reduce apparent wind / drive the need for larger sails.  Again, maybe don't cant the keel and shoot for foiling at 15-25 knots instead of 40?

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Question - has the big ocean going tris an engine to produce power for sailing? I thought they was all man driven - the records reqire that its only man driven power?

So this diesel driven Wild Oats will not get any records.

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28 minutes ago, SeaGul said:

(Snip)

So this diesel driven Wild Oats will not get any records.

Well WOXI's been rebuilt at least three times. That's got to be some kind of record, no?

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8 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Fwiw,

"The last Cup was undoubtedly spectacular, but also a little way from sailing," Schumann told German news site Ziet of New Zealand's success in Bermuda this year where they thrashed defenders Oracle Team USA using a boat powered by four "cyclors".

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/96780437/americas-cup-great-backs-team-new-zealands-return-to-monohulls

So the problem is that legs are stronger than arms? ....that nobody in the world of sailing was seeing this sooner maybe comes from the same conservatism they now show by going back to monos.  Other things discovered about sailing rather recent is that a big lead mine is not the only way to make stability to counter a tall rig.

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On 11.9.2017 at 10:01 PM, Team_GBR said:

You have to love the lies being told to justify a decision made a long time before any consulting began. The fact is that Dalton has spoken to OR, SBTJ, Artemis, GTF and Alinghi all of who told him that if it was in monos, they were out but they would compete in cats. BAR have said they will sail with whatever boat is chosen bu their preference is cats. So 6 teams prefer cats and would race with them and 5 won't be there because it's not cats. The defender and COR now need to find 5 high quality teams to replace them.

The only thing I believe they have got right in that announcement is the desire to have a boat that challenges a full crew. The rest is mushroom food.

What you write makes a lot of sense. 5 of the 6 Teams you mentioned were included in the Framework Agreement (OR, SBTJ, ART, GTF and BAR). Given that Alinghi is so activly involved in the Extreme Sailing Series it's pretty obvious they wanted a Cat.

BAR is the only Team from AC 35 who is going to challenge for AC 36 no matter what boat. I think ETNZ/LR going back to monos is exclusivly to hurt BAR & Ben. They know that the Brits are the biggest threat right now to them and by going back to monos they wanted a head start over them.

Stuff.NZ is writing that there could be up to 10 Challengers for AC 36 in 2021. I say they are lucky if they get the 5 Challengers we had in Bermuda.

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23 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

What you write makes a lot of sense. 5 of the 6 Teams you mentioned were included in the Framework Agreement (OR, SBTJ, ART, GTF and BAR). Given that Alinghi is so activly involved in the Extreme Sailing Series it's pretty obvious they wanted a Cat.

BAR is the only Team from AC 35 who is going to challenge for AC 36 no matter what boat. I think ETNZ/LR going back to monos is exclusivly to hurt BAR & Ben. They know that the Brits are the biggest threat right now to them and by going back to monos they wanted a head start over them.

Stuff.NZ is writing that there could be up to 10 Challengers for AC 36 in 2021. I say they are lucky if they get the 5 Challengers we had in Bermuda.

The LFA was L London-inspired, by Whitmarsh. With the investment those signees had into AC45T's and AC50 Multi's, it was a natural preference they could all agree to, plus the fast continuation turnaround of leadup events to another Cup by 2019.

But it was a preference, not an either/or insistence. We could still see ART/TT and maybe other $B's from AC35 run another campaign, which would be good for the competition compared to a bunch of no-chance, inexperienced and underfunded first timers trying to get to grips with a probably very-challenging and expensive new Design Rule.

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Volvo irrellevance due to going OD.

America's Cup wanting to do a wanna-be multi-hull cup thinking they will make the monohull purists happy AND have high performance.... be ready for MASSIVE wins by the faster boats in AC36.  But hey, there won't be cyclors (not that you had to go to monohulls to achieve that).

I guess the Ultime circuit will finally be up and running, so I can ignore what has been drawing my attention in those two events (Volvo & the AC) over the past 10 years.

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58 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

What you write makes a lot of sense. 5 of the 6 Teams you mentioned were included in the Framework Agreement (OR, SBTJ, ART, GTF and BAR). Given that Alinghi is so activly involved in the Extreme Sailing Series it's pretty obvious they wanted a Cat.

BAR is the only Team from AC 35 who is going to challenge for AC 36 no matter what boat. I think ETNZ/LR going back to monos is exclusivly to hurt BAR & Ben. They know that the Brits are the biggest threat right now to them and by going back to monos they wanted a head start over them.

Stuff.NZ is writing that there could be up to 10 Challengers for AC 36 in 2021. I say they are lucky if they get the 5 Challengers we had in Bermuda.

There is one reason ETNZ are going back to monos, they said they would...

Anything else is just tinfoil hat conspiracy.

They got assistance in the last cup, in return they made a gentlemans agreement that if they won they would defend in monohulls, hence monohulls is what we have.

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14 minutes ago, Boybland said:

They got assistance in the last cup, in return they made a gentlemans agreement that if they won they would defend in monohulls, hence monohulls is what we have.

So basically you tell us it was assistance against a mono. What that this a$$istance ?

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28 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

So basically you tell us it was assistance against a mono. What that this a$$istance ?

It was the a$$istance that at-the-time cash-strapped GD suddenly got saved by, at the exact time that LR pulled out and then funded ETNZ with highly valuable assistance. That 'gentleman's agreement' was almost certainly a legal contract that some P$B lawyer made GD put his signature onto, back two years ago.

Nothing illegal, and GD may have been like-minded anyway, but what P$B revealed is pretty damning when contrasted to what we actually knew; and contrasted to what much of even GD's own team must have understood.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Nothing illegal, and GD may have been like-minded anyway, but what P$B revealed is pretty damning when contrasted to what we actually knew; and contrasted to what much of even GD's own team must have understood.

Hilarity.

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2 hours ago, SeaGul said:

So the problem is that legs are stronger than arms? ....that nobody in the world of sailing was seeing this sooner maybe comes from the same conservatism they now show by going back to monos.  Other things discovered about sailing rather recent is that a big lead mine is not the only way to make stability to counter a tall rig.

So Nigel Irens, Ian Farrier and Richard Woods are all conservatives because they all like monos over multis for some things?  So the A Class racers were all conservatives for sticking to cats instead of going to Moths and kitefoilers because they were newer and faster?

The whole concept that being a mono sailor is evidence of conservatism is bullshit. It's like saying that motorbike riders are conservatives because if they were progressive they'd drive cars, because cars go faster. It's like saying that everyone who likes soccer or rock is conservative because gridiron players score more points and because live coding music is newer. 

Depending on how you slice up sailing, you could say that a multi like yours is one of the oldest forms of sailing craft (out of monos, foilers, kites, windsurfers and multis). Does that mean that you are conservative?

We multis sailors have been saying for decades that if we got into the big races, multis would take over. That's been revealed as bullshit. Even ignoring the AC, look at the Fastnet entries - after a decade the multis are by far the smallest section of the fleet. Look at all the people who have sailed Darts and Hobies and have NOT gone on to sail big multis. They can't be all conservatives, and yet almost none of them buy big racing multis.

Let's be progressive here, as multi sailors. Now that it's been shown that getting into the AC will not change the sport, let's just admit what should have been painfully obvious for years; we are NOT better or more progressive than mono sailors. We just happen to have slightly different tastes than most people, and it looks as if nothing will ever change that. Let's actually stop putting them down and just actually respect them so we can learn from them about how to make multis more popular.

PS - 12 Metre monos used cyclors in 1977. Multi sailors got into them in 2016. As in wingsails, wing masts, foils, high tech construction, asymmetrics and many other innovations, the monos were there long before the multis got involved.

 

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6 minutes ago, DayTripper said:

Hilarity.

Do you think that GD expected P$B to announce what he did? 

Lol, I doubt it!

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Parkers did an experimental carbon Contender, about 1972.An experimental Star raced with an airplane wing in the 1920s (look it up in George Elder's history on the Star class site) around the time that aviation pioneer Brabazon tried something similar in a Redwing. In the '50s, Clarence Farrar made a solid wingsail for Bee McKinnon's International Canoe and an Aussie guy did a solid Moth wing. Multis were first in foiling but monos lead the way with racing on foils.

I'm a multi sailor, I'm not knocking them. It's just that there isn't any evidence that mono sailors are more conservative. We've just proven that the claims about how multis would rule if they got into the AC were wrong; this is great time to stop fooling ourselves that we and our boats are better, and to promote multi sailing in a realistic way.

 

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11 minutes ago, The Jay said:

Parkers did an experimental carbon Contender, about 1972.An experimental Star raced with an airplane wing in the 1920s (look it up in George Elder's history on the Star class site) around the time that aviation pioneer Brabazon tried something similar in a Redwing. In the '50s, Clarence Farrar made a solid wingsail for Bee McKinnon's International Canoe and an Aussie guy did a solid Moth wing. Multis were first in foiling but monos lead the way with racing on foils.

I'm a multi sailor, I'm not knocking them. It's just that there isn't any evidence that mono sailors are more conservative. We've just proven that the claims about how multis would rule if they got into the AC were wrong; this is great time to stop fooling ourselves that we and our boats are better.

 

If 'better' includes pushing yacht design to the limits of speed up and down an inshore course then it it is ~you~ that needs to stop fooling yourself.

The coming monos may be cool but they will almost certainly be a step backwards, speed-edge and tech-wise.

 

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The speed of an inshore boat on a windward/leeward course is just one measure of what is "better".  If the guys who wrote the Deed reckoned that was the best measure, they wouldn't have banned Maria, the fastest boat in the world in those conditions, and they wouldn't later have put in the "own bottom" clause. AC legends like Vanderbilt and Herreshoff wouldn't have changed the rules to make AC boat more useful. 

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33 minutes ago, The Jay said:

The speed of an inshore boat on a windward/leeward course is just one measure of what is "better".  If the guys who wrote the Deed reckoned that was the best measure, they wouldn't have banned Maria, the fastest boat in the world in those conditions, and they wouldn't later have put in the "own bottom" clause. AC legends like Vanderbilt and Herreshoff wouldn't have changed the rules to make AC boat more useful. 

True but the design competition, and that's what it is, has changed over the 165+ years in ways the original founders would never have been able to anticipate.

The most recent DoG Match featured the ~fastest boats the teams could design~, wth else can you take from that?

I tend to agree with RC here:

"If you really want to look at something that is growing the sport you look at what the 20-year-olds and 30-year-olds are saying."

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/sir-russell-coutts-unfazed-criticism-americas-cup-in-bermuda

 

 

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35 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

If 'better' includes pushing yacht design to the limits of speed up and down an inshore course then it it is ~you~ that needs to stop fooling yourself.

The coming monos may be cool but they will almost certainly be a step backwards, speed-edge and tech-wise.

 

Going faster is does not equate to advancement.  If you the faster boats then  there are plenty of classes out there.  This is about the AC and match racing, speed is irrelevant.

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10 minutes ago, sailman said:

Going faster is does not equate to advancement.  If you the faster boats then  there are plenty of classes out there.  This is about the AC and match racing, speed is irrelevant.

The Deed describes it as a fastest-boat design competition.

But whatever floats your boat..

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At https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/09/12/Tuesdays-with-TFE-Watch-a-replay-of-todays-informative-show-on-AC36-with-guest-Richard-Gladwell-NZL-via-Skype-from-Auckland

SAN FRANCISCO – Today's live show was our first using Skype video. Our special guest was longtime friend, racing sailor, and esteemed yachting journalist (and soon to be AC author) Richard Gladwell, NZ editor of Sail-World.com, with his take on plans and preparations for AC36. To say the least, he is not happy with the decision to revert from multihulls to high-performance monohulls. Richard's insight into possible venues for team bases and the race was illuminating, whether or not you've ever been to, let alone lived in, Auckland. To watch a replay on the SAILING ILLUSTRATED Facebook Page, click here.

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30 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

True but the design competition, and that's what it is, has changed over the 165+ years in ways the original founders would never have been able to anticipate.

The most recent DoG Match featured the ~fastest boats the teams could design~, wth else can you take from that?

I tend to agree with RC here:

"If you really want to look at something that is growing the sport you look at what the 20-year-olds and 30-year-olds are saying."

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/sir-russell-coutts-unfazed-criticism-americas-cup-in-bermuda

 

 

The 20 and 30 year olds I know - and there's plenty of them - are saying that they don't normally do true extreme sports (which is proven by the simple numbers), that they have enough complication in their lives, and therefore they normally want simpler or more convenient sports like SUPping and kayaking. They aren't couch potatoes - of the 20 year olds who've sailed with me recently one was Olympic squad in another sport, another an international pro in another sport, another a diving pro and a fourth a mad climber/back country skier - but they don't assume that they will have access to the sort of steady income and housing that we did, and they have no interest in spending so much time twiddling with fiddly boat bits just to go a bit quicker.

The facts are pretty simple. Young people today are NOT into extreme sport, generally.

Most of the guys who are advocates for extreme speed seem to be the older people who sailed slower boats like 505s years ago, now don't sail or sail slower boats, and now want to cheer extreme speed from the sidelines, as if that shows that they would have been extreme if they had the chance. Sounds a bit like Russell, perhaps. Those of us who have sailed extreme classes generally know that they don't appeal to the masses, for good reasons.

You, Russell, Richard and other middle-aged guys could have raced C Class cats, pro windsurfers, skiffs, Formula 40s or 85' tris in your younger days. For various good reasons, most of you chose Lasers, Finns, 505s, OKs etc, and today's 20 somethings make the same sort of choices for the same sort of good reasons. This line that the kids today are all into extreme sports is just extreme bullshit swallowed by people who haven't checked the facts that are abundantly clear.

The last match had the fastest boats WITHIN THE MATCH RULES. That was the same as every other match. One big difference is that the two Cat Cups have had by far the smallest fields of any recent AC.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

What P$B revealed is pretty damning when contrasted to what we actually knew; and contrasted to what much of even GD's own team must have understood.

 

 

 

Some have been criticizing an agreement between 5 challengers before the match, but we had a challenger controlled by a would be challenger at the next AC.

So the protocol cannot be consultative if it was partly decided before the match by a non challenger. Pretty far from YC vs YC.

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

The LFA was L London-inspired, by Whitmarsh. With the investment those signees had into AC45T's and AC50 Multi's, it was a natural preference they could all agree to, plus the fast continuation turnaround of leadup events to another Cup by 2019.

But it was a preference, not an either/or insistence. We could still see ART/TT and maybe other $B's from AC35 run another campaign, which would be good for the competition compared to a bunch of no-chance, inexperienced and underfunded first timers trying to get to grips with a probably very-challenging and expensive new Design Rule.

How does TT/ART challenge Stingers? Tell me? They don't have enough Swedish Sailors to make it happen if the Nationality Requirement is north of 50%. And I think it will be north of 50. Anything else makes no sense from an ETNZ Perspective.

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57 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

At https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/09/12/Tuesdays-with-TFE-Watch-a-replay-of-todays-informative-show-on-AC36-with-guest-Richard-Gladwell-NZL-via-Skype-from-Auckland

SAN FRANCISCO – Today's live show was our first using Skype video. Our special guest was longtime friend, racing sailor, and esteemed yachting journalist (and soon to be AC author) Richard Gladwell, NZ editor of Sail-World.com, with his take on plans and preparations for AC36. To say the least, he is not happy with the decision to revert from multihulls to high-performance monohulls. Richard's insight into possible venues for team bases and the race was illuminating, whether or not you've ever been to, let alone lived in, Auckland. To watch a replay on the SAILING ILLUSTRATED Facebook Page, click here.

Good one at the link, listened to the whole hour of it.

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1 hour ago, Modurn-ate said:

Land Locked country entry without "arm of the sea" access 

To be fair, that's on the Aussies and the NYSC

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8 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Of course there isn't a link. Team_GBR claims inside knowledge. We will know in the next couple of months if Team_GBR's assertion is false. We can't know if it true because there's a very real possibility some of those teams are out regardless.

There is a chance that Oracle and SBTJ would be out whatever the boats were, although that is not what team members have been saying. If they had stayed with AC50's, Oracle felt they had no option but to continue, because that is what they had agreed with others to do. Same with SBTJ. There was doubt about what they would have done with another foiling cat but one thing is for certain, they are out because it is a monohull. I have been told the same applies for Artemis. They felt there was a way around the nationality rules because of assurances it wouldn't be a ridiculous percentage, but Tornqvist has no interest at all in starting again with monohulls. Does anybody really think the French would be back with a mono?

There are now enough people home, looking for work, that some of what is going on comes out. There really isn't much secrecy any more. Add a touch of common sense it's pretty easy to take a pretty intelligent go at what is happening.

Offset against those "loses", the rumour mill talks of the following new campaigns. Tom Slingsby is pulling together an Australian effort. There are 2 US probables, one of which looks like it will be managed by James Spithill and there are suggestions that there might be a Spanish attempt led by Iker Martinez. 

Take it or leave it. That's the rumours. 

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29 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Haha...what a surprise! Not really...B)

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

 

The coming monos may be cool but they will almost certainly be a step backwards, speed-edge and tech-wise.

 

That may be the dumbest fucking thing you've ever written here yet, Stinger.

Love you to front up to GV and tell 'em he's not at the forefront of yacht design and development.

Plonker.

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6 hours ago, The Jay said:

So Nigel Irens, Ian Farrier and Richard Woods are all conservatives because they all like monos over multis for some things?  So the A Class racers were all conservatives for sticking to cats instead of going to Moths and kitefoilers because they were newer and faster?

The whole concept that being a mono sailor is evidence of conservatism is bullshit. It's like saying that motorbike riders are conservatives because if they were progressive they'd drive cars, because cars go faster. It's like saying that everyone who likes soccer or rock is conservative because gridiron players score more points and because live coding music is newer. 

Depending on how you slice up sailing, you could say that a multi like yours is one of the oldest forms of sailing craft (out of monos, foilers, kites, windsurfers and multis). Does that mean that you are conservative?

We multis sailors have been saying for decades that if we got into the big races, multis would take over. That's been revealed as bullshit. Even ignoring the AC, look at the Fastnet entries - after a decade the multis are by far the smallest section of the fleet. Look at all the people who have sailed Darts and Hobies and have NOT gone on to sail big multis. They can't be all conservatives, and yet almost none of them buy big racing multis.

Let's be progressive here, as multi sailors. Now that it's been shown that getting into the AC will not change the sport, let's just admit what should have been painfully obvious for years; we are NOT better or more progressive than mono sailors. We just happen to have slightly different tastes than most people, and it looks as if nothing will ever change that. Let's actually stop putting them down and just actually respect them so we can learn from them about how to make multis more popular.

PS - 12 Metre monos used cyclors in 1977. Multi sailors got into them in 2016. As in wingsails, wing masts, foils, high tech construction, asymmetrics and many other innovations, the monos were there long before the multis got involved.

 

Its conservative to attach the cyclist approach - specially when that was done in monos long time ago - and its conservative to think lead ballast is the only way to stabilize a mono. Thats what I wrote - all other thing is you own.

But when this is the forefront of sailing - and we had the 72 flying cats -that really changed everything in top end sailing - to try to adapt the same things - but restrict to monohull - thats conservative. And to really believe you get "match-racing" then with a foiling mono - with wires to pull  and sail to change and hoist - for "real" sailors that is living in an alternative reality. 

As for motorbikes and cars - really cars are faster in the real world? If you have unlimited money maybe - but few have - so for a normal amount of money you get a bike that scares the shit out of you - and a moderate car.  

All other examples you take - shows conservatism. But look at the charterfleet - people seems to get the point - but for now - you can get a 40+ ocean going mono for a little money - a similar cat start at 4-5 times that money - and is hard to get.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

81% for monohull at present. I'm supposed to be surprised?

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The AC72 cats were designed "not to foil" and they got them foiling, so looking forward to seeing foiling monos, should bring a whole new way of thinking to the game. I don't think it will just be a giant moth, or a imoca style boat, should be something we haven't seen before! 

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8 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Do you think that GD expected P$B to announce what he did? 

Lol, I doubt it!

You don't address the content of your post. For instance, what did we know then?

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5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

There are now enough people home, looking for work, that some of what is going on comes out. There really isn't much secrecy any more. Add a touch of common sense it's pretty easy to take a pretty intelligent go at what is happening.

Ah. Those things you were stating as unequivocal facts.

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5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Take it or leave it. That's the rumours. 

Oh. Rumours.

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Fucks sake. Anyone who's been paying attention around here knows Team_GBR claims inside knowledge and what he writes is set in that context. Claims and quite possibly has. His diagnosis of Rita's lack of boatspeed turned out to be regrettably accurate. If you don't want to read rumours, I suggest you leave SAAC by the nearest exit.

 

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11 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

The Deed describes it as a fastest-boat design competition.

But whatever floats your boat..

In your mind maybe but not in the actual text

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4 hours ago, dogwatch said:

 If you don't want to read rumours, I suggest you leave SAAC by the nearest exit.

 

I don't necessarily mind rumours, I just like them to be marked as such, rather than be given as categorical facts. But I'll take your information on board and treat everything GBR says as unlabelled, unsubstantiated, unsourced rumour. Thanks for the info.

 

edit...his diagnosis of everything else apart from BAR's widely discussed snailness was wildly off the mark.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Wow, thanks Stingers. Cammas doesn't believe the Protocol will come out at the end of September. He also says the so-called "Gang of 5" were a lot more transparent than ETNZ/LR. He says GTF will fight to be in the next Edition of the Cup but if they can't they'll look at other projects.

So for the first time in the over 160-year history of the AC the CoR is choosing the boat and not the Defender.

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Pretty harsh
 
"les Néo-Zélandais ont été très forts pour faire des leçons de morale au reste du monde quelques mois avant la Coupe. Et là, ils sont pilotés comme des pantins. Et cela en dehors de leur intérêt propre. Sur la dernière édition, les Kiwis se sont éclatés, des marins ont dit en off qu'ils ne feraient pas la prochaine Coupe si elle se disputait en monocoque."
© Le Télégrammehttp://www.letelegramme.fr/voile/coupe-de-l-america-franck-cammas-tant-que-ce-n-est-pas-officiel-11-09-2017-11659169.php#jmIO0FDfQ5H6GsTQ.99
 
Kiwis have been pretty good to give morality lessons to the rest of the world a few months before the cup. And not, they are controlled like muppets. And against their best interest. During last cup, kiwis got loose, some of their sailors said privately that they would not participate if the next cup was on monos."

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Pantins = puppets. Not muppets.

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10 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Pantins = puppets. Not muppets.

Correct ! thanks for correcting my Shakespeare language.

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dogwatch & Tornado-Cat:

The Question should also be: Who is the poddle or puppet here? Right now it looks like ETNZ is Bertellis poddle & puppet and not vise-versa.

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Just now, Alinghi4ever said:

dogwatch & Tornado-Cat:

The Question should also be: Who is the poddle or puppet here? Right now it looks like ETNZ is Bertellis poddle & puppet and not vise-versa.

Wow, that's for certain. 

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Here's my question. It is now September 2017. The race is supposed to be about Feb 2021. That's less than 3.5 years; more like 3 years from now to needing to be sailing and practicing in your boat. Best case scenario is the protocol comes out this month and then the design rules this winter. Maybe. So you're talking about 2.5 years from getting the design brief to needing to be up and sailing. Outside of a few ultra billionaires, who could do that? Doesn't this make it even MORE of a billionaire's competition than it was under LE? Or are they going full Volvo and making it really one-design?

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3 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

Here's my question. It is now September 2017. The race is supposed to be about Feb 2021. That's less than 3.5 years; more like 3 years from now to needing to be sailing and practicing in your boat. Best case scenario is the protocol comes out this month and then the design rules this winter. Maybe. So you're talking about 2.5 years from getting the design brief to needing to be up and sailing. Outside of a few ultra billionaires, who could do that? Doesn't this make it even MORE of a billionaire's competition than it was under LE? Or are they going full Volvo and making it really one-design?

That's a great Question. As I said in the "Teams Thread" you will need 150-180m maybe even more. Yes, it will become even more a Cup of billionaires competition like it was in 2003 & 2007. The only option for them is consult with Guillaume Verdier/VOR and make the AC Boats like the VOR Boats for 2019/2020 otherwise the Participation of Teams going to AUCK in 2021 will come waaay down IMO. I'm not sure that's good for the Cup.

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13 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

That may be the dumbest fucking thing you've ever written here yet, Stinger.

Love you to front up to GV and tell 'em he's not at the forefront of yacht design and development.

Plonker.

I guess that remains to be seen. But here's something that Bertelli said in 2013, which may influence what is happening:

Gtran Link

Let's say Luna Rossa wins the 2013 America's Cup. What would it look like under your leadership?

I remain convinced that we should return to sloops, fast and powerful monohulls, and change this formula. We tried the catamarans, it was a good and interesting experience from a sporting point of view, but I do not see a great future for multihulls in this competition. There is every reason to believe that we will not be keeping the AC 72s [72-foot multihulls, or 23 meters, chosen to compete on the America's Cup]. This would be a model between AC 45 and AC 72. This implies that new sails, rudders and foils have to be developed ... In my opinion, boats should be made as simple as possible and catamarans not simple. They are complex in their technical, hydrodynamic and aerodynamic management.
 

 

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5 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

(...)

So for the first time in the over 160-year history of the AC the CoR is choosing the boat and not the Defender.

Where have you been the last 160 years?
For at least half that time Def & Chall came with the boats they had already built, boats that have won regattas before, boats that did not need to be "chosen", or with a mutually agreed class of boat. That the Defender chooses the boat/class is, well, new since Oracle became Defender.
(If I remember incorrectly, I'm happy to be corrected, but please provide an example, so that I can learn.)

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8 hours ago, Modurn-ate said:

The deed implies a game where two animals go for it, the fastest wins, all these match racing plonkerisims just hark back to the 1990s of slow motion niche buffoonery is akin to a house cat playing with a mouse for hours, rather than a fast chase, kill and feast, seen in the wild.

The Deed of Gift does not do "implies". Neither does the NYSC, for that matter...

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20 hours ago, sailman said:

Going faster is does not equate to advancement.  If you the faster boats then  there are plenty of classes out there.  This is about the AC and match racing, speed is irrelevant.

AC is about design and build of fast sailboats, match racing is just the irrelevant.but necessary means to determine who's got the fastest boat.

AC was never intended to have anything to do with traditionalism.

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3 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I guess that remains to be seen. But here's something that Bertelli said in 2013, which may influence what is happening:

Gtran Link

Let's say Luna Rossa wins the 2013 America's Cup. What would it look like under your leadership?

I remain convinced that we should return to sloops, fast and powerful monohulls, and change this formula. We tried the catamarans, it was a good and interesting experience from a sporting point of view, but I do not see a great future for multihulls in this competition. There is every reason to believe that we will not be keeping the AC 72s [72-foot multihulls, or 23 meters, chosen to compete on the America's Cup]. This would be a model between AC 45 and AC 72. This implies that new sails, rudders and foils have to be developed ... In my opinion, boats should be made as simple as possible and catamarans not simple. They are complex in their technical, hydrodynamic and aerodynamic management.

The only reason multihulls survived beyond AC33 was because the cheaters felt it provided them with the best advantage over the Challengers. When AC34 became a sphincter-tightening moment, they resorted to changing rules in AC35 to regain their advantage.

Monohulls would have been restored in AC34 had Ernie Bertarelli prevailed in the DoG-Match AC33.

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6 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

So for the first time in the over 160-year history of the AC the CoR is choosing the boat and not the Defender.

Have you ever read the deed of gift?

It requires the challenger to select the boat and then send it's specifics to the defender.

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31 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

Have you ever read the deed of gift?

It requires the challenger to select the boat and then send it's specifics to the defender.

And, historically anyway, the Challenging Club would then provide the 'Custom House Registry' of the boat, so that the Defender Club could decide which Yacht in its fleet to choose, or more often to then build, to race that Challenger in a coming Match - the term 'Match' having little if anything to do with modern match-racing rules.

I'm guessing that from 1870 onwards, every NYYC Defender boat was built new for the coming Match.

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Speaking of AC History, has anyone heard from HHN92? He lives in Tampa Bay, which took a direct hit from that f*cking monster Hurricane Irma. PM'd him last week wondering if he needs any kind of help, no response so far.

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9 hours ago, DayTripper said:

I don't necessarily mind rumours, I just like them to be marked as such, rather than be given as categorical facts. But I'll take your information on board and treat everything GBR says as unlabelled, unsubstantiated, unsourced rumour. Thanks for the info.

 

edit...his diagnosis of everything else apart from BAR's widely discussed snailness was wildly off the mark.

Reading isn't your strong point, is it?  He flat out said "that's the rumors."  I would say that qualifies as "marked as such."

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28 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Speaking of AC History, has anyone heard from HHN92?

Is he so old ? :blink:

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Well, I guess we won't be seeing the boats hit the start line doing 20 plus knots and hitting 35 plus at the first mark which was only a few hundred meters from the start.

But,I guess they will be able to drift along beside each other at .00005 knots in the pre start before one blinks.

I will of course watch it but I really don't think it is the way to go, but then I don't count. I am just a person who enjoys sailing.

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23 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Is he so old ? :blink:

Not what I was implying at all. 

He might have enjoyed contributing to the AC Hiistory subject above but may have far bigger, real time problems for now. Tampa Bay got f'ing nailed, it's a catastrophe. 

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8 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Not what I was implying at all. 

He might have enjoyed contributing to the AC Hiistory subject above but may have far bigger, real time problems for now. Tampa Bay got f'ing nailed, it's a catastrophe. 

^^ Let's hope everything is OK.

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Speaking of AC History, has anyone heard from HHN92? He lives in Tampa Bay, which took a direct hit from that f*cking monster Hurricane Irma. PM'd him last week wondering if he needs any kind of help, no response so far.

 

3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

^^ Let's hope everything is OK.

Quoting LeBeouf from True Grit (1969): "I aint dead yet..."

The storm was not as bad as feared but enough to take out the power from 10:30 pm Sunday until 4:30 this afternoon, and our house is one of the lucky ones. Still a lot that will not have power for a couple more days yet. Generator life is something to try, I look at it as an adventure, no sense to get mad if everything else is OK. We had a nice steak dinner with baked potatoes and field peas mom brought with her Monday night. The eye passed over Lakeland, which is only 8-10 miles away from where we are at. Funny though, at the height of the storm I sat on my back porch taking it all in, with no wind pressure at all. The way we have two 2-story houses on our east side blocked the brunt of the wind, with the effects of being in their 'gas' our back yard was covered from the direct pressure. Now, the trees above were slashing back and forth with the wind screaming through the branches, it was something to hear. I tried to record it on my phone but all that comes through is the rainwater, which sounds like a hose running into a bucket. It is cool where the blue glow flashes when a transformer pops, it looks like lightning but is not.

The yard can only be described as shoveling 16" of snow out of it, the limbs, branches, and twigs we so thick on the ground. The back, virtually clear, the front was the war zone. Fortunately with the easterly wind blowing the water out of Tampa Bay at record levels the boats were settled into the mud bottom and did not get beat--up by wind and high water. We were lucky that it took a jog inland where all its strength was sapped. If it buzz-sawed up the coast the story would have been more tragic than it is.

So you're still stuck with me...

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38 minutes ago, ~HHN92~ said:

 

Quoting LeBeouf from True Grit (1969): "I aint dead yet..."

The storm was not as bad as feared but enough to take out the power from 10:30 pm Sunday until 4:30 this afternoon, and our house is one of the lucky ones. Still a lot that will not have power for a couple more days yet. Generator life is something to try, I look at it as an adventure, no sense to get mad if everything else is OK. We had a nice steak dinner with baked potatoes and field peas mom brought with her Monday night. The eye passed over Lakeland, which is only 8-10 miles away from where we are at. Funny though, at the height of the storm I sat on my back porch taking it all in, with no wind pressure at all. The way we have two 2-story houses on our east side blocked the brunt of the wind, with the effects of being in their 'gas' our back yard was covered from the direct pressure. Now, the trees above were slashing back and forth with the wind screaming through the branches, it was something to hear. I tried to record it on my phone but all that comes through is the rainwater, which sounds like a hose running into a bucket. It is cool where the blue glow flashes when a transformer pops, it looks like lightning but is not.

The yard can only be described as shoveling 16" of snow out of it, the limbs, branches, and twigs we so thick on the ground. The back, virtually clear, the front was the war zone. Fortunately with the easterly wind blowing the water out of Tampa Bay at record levels the boats were settled into the mud bottom and did not get beat--up by wind and high water. We were lucky that it took a jog inland where all its strength was sapped. If it buzz-sawed up the coast the story would have been more tragic than it is.

So you're still stuck with me...

So glad to see you and yours are safe. Hope all our other Florida Anarchists are safe as well..

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10 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Pantins = puppets. Not muppets.

The Muppets are puppets.

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23 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Its conservative to attach the cyclist approach - specially when that was done in monos long time ago - and its conservative to think lead ballast is the only way to stabilize a mono. Thats what I wrote - all other thing is you own.

But when this is the forefront of sailing - and we had the 72 flying cats -that really changed everything in top end sailing - to try to adapt the same things - but restrict to monohull - thats conservative. And to really believe you get "match-racing" then with a foiling mono - with wires to pull  and sail to change and hoist - for "real" sailors that is living in an alternative reality. 

As for motorbikes and cars - really cars are faster in the real world? If you have unlimited money maybe - but few have - so for a normal amount of money you get a bike that scares the shit out of you - and a moderate car.  

All other examples you take - shows conservatism. But look at the charterfleet - people seems to get the point - but for now - you can get a 40+ ocean going mono for a little money - a similar cat start at 4-5 times that money - and is hard to get.

Your post said it was conservative to go back to monos; you said nothing about the way those monos were kept upright.  And if "all the other examples (including As and Moths) show conservatism" then someone with a cruiser/racer tri like your must be a true regressive. 

Most of the fastest multi sailors where I live also sail monos. We do not change from being "conservatives" one day to being "progressives" the next. We sail monos because we like them, just as we like our fast multis. 

Surely until we respect the choices of the mono sailors we will not understand how to show them how good multis are. Calling them conservatives has been failing for 65 years now. It's time to try a new tack.

 

 

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On 6/27/2017 at 4:36 AM, Presuming Ed said:

Stravaganza

stravaganza-800.jpg

Q

D212_Q_AudiWinter2011_2.jpg

Large_NSW%20Maritime%20standing%20by%20c

 

That's a proa right? 

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11 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

That's a great Question. As I said in the "Teams Thread" you will need 150-180m maybe even more. Yes, it will become even more a Cup of billionaires competition like it was in 2003 & 2007. The only option for them is consult with Guillaume Verdier/VOR and make the AC Boats like the VOR Boats for 2019/2020 otherwise the Participation of Teams going to AUCK in 2021 will come waaay down IMO. I'm not sure that's good for the Cup.

The billionaires no longer have their pick of the best talent. The Nationality rules will ensure that. Its going to be about representing your country.

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30 minutes ago, sclarke said:

The billionaires no longer have their pick of the best talent. The Nationality rules will ensure that. Its going to be about representing your country.

I think the nationality clause is being over emphasized. 

If it is 50% or 60%, it will have next to no effect on the landscape. 

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52 minutes ago, The Jay said:

Your post said it was conservative to go back to monos; you said nothing about the way those monos were kept upright.  And if "all the other examples (including As and Moths) show conservatism" then someone with a cruiser/racer tri like your must be a true regressive. 

Most of the fastest multi sailors where I live also sail monos. We do not change from being "conservatives" one day to being "progressives" the next. We sail monos because we like them, just as we like our fast multis. 

Surely until we respect the choices of the mono sailors we will not understand how to show them how good multis are. Calling them conservatives has been failing for 65 years now. It's time to try a new tack.

 

 

Heres my 1. post: 

So the problem is that legs are stronger than arms? ....that nobody in the world of sailing was seeing this sooner maybe comes from the same conservatism they now show by going back to monos.  Other things discovered about sailing rather recent is that a big lead mine is not the only way to make stability to counter a tall rig.

My bad to say all you ex. shows conservatism - too fast there...

That some eager sailor sail anything has nothing to do with this. Im not talking about every guy here - just the decicion on the next AC and those who support that.

The AC72 and AC50s - there was fantastic to see - and for the 72 - a shift in paradigm in sailing.  The last cup finals wasnt so good bec of the weather that was in the Kiwis soft spot - and then no real competition. The skills that are needed in these boat also goas far beyond anything a traditional mono can offer. 

A total modern foiling mono - is a step back - in speed - and its about speed. And it is conservative to do that in AC that should be the forefront of sailing.  

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55 minutes ago, SeaGul said:

A total modern foiling mono - is a step back - in speed - and its about speed.

Incorrect. It's at least as much about racing and the spectacle. One person steering and another pushing buttons on an X-box is not a great racing spectacle.

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For myself the tightening of nationality rules is kind of a big deal because it would quite likely negate a Nihon challenge, I know that sounds odd considering my location but I am a proud eccentric & Nihoniphile. Now on the subject of Billionaires, for me it would super ultra mega cool if say Paul Allen could be enticed back to the cup, bloody unlikely I know, but DAMN! a possible defense in my own back yard would be EPIC!

Dredging up an old topic in this forum I know, but does anyone else think it would be awesome if (maybe for the finals at least) we had a race around "island of agreed upon choice" how cool would that be? Obvious noob here so feel free to tear it apart.

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Incorrect. It's at least as much about racing and the spectacle. One person steering and another pushing buttons on an X-box is not a great racing spectacle.

 

..and what will change on a foiling mono? - it will be the same - but at slower speed and with slower maneuvers - even if they wont use slow moving ballast the narrower boat will produce less righting moment or more drag and sail slower. 

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I expecting to see some flappy things driving the boat, that need some crewwork.

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How about  postmodern Log sailing canoes, say 30-40' long, unlimited planks and sail area.  Capsizing boats are always amusing, especially for TV watchers.  And those babies are hard to sail.  If self rescue was part of the rule?

and I know it's pointless to speculate, but there is a reason noblesse oblige (sp?) exists, no?

minimum crew of 6?  Those guys would be rock stars!  Non of this grinding bullshit...

and of course foils allowed with no fucking wind limits.

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14 hours ago, Monkey said:

Reading isn't your strong point, is it?  He flat out said "that's the rumors."  I would say that qualifies as "marked as such."

Yeah, right. Your avatar is well chosen. I guess reading every post is not your strong point. Anyway, except for the fact the word rumour is not included in this post on which I commented, you are right.

Quote

The fact is that Dalton has spoken to OR, SBTJ, Artemis, GTF and Alinghi all of who told him that if it was in monos, they were out but they would compete in cats.

GBR's post

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8 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Incorrect. It's at least as much about racing and the spectacle. One person steering and another pushing buttons on an X-box is not a great racing spectacle.

That has FAR more to do with the restrictions on foils and allowing for stored/implemented hydraulic power than it has to do with the racing being in cats.  I could very easily see the same situation with a foiling mono with specific rules that would lead to that event.

Allow for flaps on the foils and restrict the hydro, and voila, we will have guys grinding, holding/manipulating sheets, etc.  But we would also have incredibly rapid foiling tacks and much more probable maneuvers and closer racing, something you are not likely to see with a new class of "foiling" monos that are just trying to be like cats. 

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I didn't say anything about cats and monohulls. I was responding to the assertion "it's about speed".

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7 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

I didn't say anything about cats and monohulls. I was responding to the assertion "it's about speed".

But that has been much of the argument against multis, that they did not want to see one guy using a tablet to control the boat while another guy steered, and several hamsters.  That seemed to be part of Bertelli's argument, and it seems as though GD chimed in similarly.  Somehow one had to go back to monos to avoid that?  Ironic that you almost have to go to engines in order to have a mono of the kind of performance that is now expected, and that brings us closer to sailing?

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I've no argument against multihulls. I have an observation, which is that based on participation they are the past of the sport, not the future. I have an opinion, which is that I don't find them interesting or attractive. Neither of those, however, makes for an argument and I've never claimed that they do.

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14 hours ago, ~HHN92~ said:

Quoting LeBeouf from True Grit (1969): "I aint dead yet..."

(...)

So you're still stuck with me...

Good, simply good!

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10 hours ago, jaysper said:

I think the nationality clause is being over emphasized. 

If it is 50% or 60%, it will have next to no effect on the landscape. 

It'll be 70+ %. Anything less wouldn't make sense from an ETNZ Perspective. Like sclarke said if ETNZ wants to make sure Sailing Talent ain't picked & shopped by billionaires and the AC being about representing your Country a 50% or 60% Rule as you suggesting wouldn't hurt. ETNZ needs to do something to really hurt these people.

I'm all for a strict Nationality Rule. The downside of it maybe less Teams challenging but I tell you what: Seeing Iain Percy or Chris Brittle, Paul Goodison sailing for a Swedish AC Team in AC 35 although there are all 3 Brits was absolutely sickening.

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11 hours ago, jaysper said:

I think the nationality clause is being over emphasized. 

If it is 50% or 60%, it will have next to no effect on the landscape. 

Depends how big the boats are going to be. The IACC's had 16 crew I think? (correct me if I'm wrong) at 50% thats 8 of 16. For teams in Bermuda who had only one or two sailors from the challenging nation, 8 nationals may turn out to  be a big deal.

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6 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Depends how big the boats are going to be. The IACC's had 16 crew I think? (correct me if I'm wrong) at 50% thats 8 of 16. For teams in Bermuda who had only one or two sailors from the challenging nation, 8 nationals may turn out to  be a big deal.

The Boat will likely be a 60-foot foiling mono I think.

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9 hours ago, dogwatch said:

I expecting to see some flappy things driving the boat, that need some crewwork.

What? No X-box controllers? ;)

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7 hours ago, sclarke said:

Depends how big the boats are going to be. The IACC's had 16 crew I think? (correct me if I'm wrong) at 50% thats 8 of 16. For teams in Bermuda who had only one or two sailors from the challenging nation, 8 nationals may turn out to  be a big deal.

But how big was the "brains trust"? 3 IIRC.

Throw in the trimmer, a 2 or 3 other key personnel and the rest start to look a bit like "meat".

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3 minutes ago, jaysper said:

But how big was the "brains trust"? 3 IIRC.

Throw in the trimmer, a 2 or 3 other key personnel and the rest start to look a bit like "meat".

Yep, rail meat like what what you see on the TP52's probably.

If the boats are slow enough that when they run into Takapuna Beach they have to jybe the thing then maybe they move over? Lol

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34 minutes ago, jaysper said:

But how big was the "brains trust"? 3 IIRC.

Throw in the trimmer, a 2 or 3 other key personnel and the rest start to look a bit like "meat".

Brains trust in 2007, consisted of four people. Helmsman, Tactician, Strategist, Navigator. ETNZ had Dean Barker, Ray Davies, Terry Hutchinson and Kevin Hall. 

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^

The usual bullshit that the AC drives small boat innovation when it is actually the other way around.

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1 hour ago, sclarke said:

Brains trust in 2007, consisted of four people. Helmsman, Tactician, Strategist, Navigator. ETNZ had Dean Barker, Ray Davies, Terry Hutchinson and Kevin Hall. 

But the point remains that with a 50 or 60% rule, you can fill all those spots with "meat" and still have enough spots for the foreigners you need to hire.

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4 hours ago, dogwatch said:

^

The usual bullshit that the AC drives small boat innovation when it is actually the other way around.

Both true and not true.

For sure the innovation in technology came came from small boats, specifically moths, and format from the EXSS.  But do you feel there would of been the rash of foiling adoption and interest in multihulls with out AC34, the AC WS and AC35?

Except for half a dozen 60s, a couple of minis and some messing about on the Swiss lakes mono foiling doesn't really exist but for the moth, which is a great proof of concept but can you imagine a 30ft moth let alone a 60ft one?

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Look up in the (gasp) FP Clean's video of the Melges 40 in Porto Cervo, with electric canting keel. Scale it up to whatever LOA suits your fancy, and this is what we're going to get. 

IMOCA-style foils? I don't think so because they would be very expensive for a team to experiment with, and mainly no other designer can match Guillaume Verdier's know-how and feedback. I'd rather have nothing than the OD alternative

 

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The design process is going to be the reverse of last time.  Good teams will be looking at the rule and the proposed course and working out if they really want to foil or if they should be looking to optimise vmg.

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To be honest, I can't think of a worse compromise than a motorised foiling mono. It puts a cross in all but one or two of the boxes that should be ticked.

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