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16 hours ago, mfluder said:

The answer was the same then as it is now and will be, until the damage done by Oracle Team USA is undone. That answer being...Larry Ellison came along.

 

You can blame Uncle Larry all you like but the current state of the AC is all on GD.  He had the choice to either continue with the foiling multi's, which would of enticed a number of AC35 teams to continue and attract other teams like Alinghi to join, or choose a more conservative new mono-hull boat design on the level of a enhanced TP52 or other current mono-hull designs (like Comanche) that would of been easier on the wallet to design and build in order to attract a number of established and new challengers. 

Either option could of been a much needed reboot to the AC to get the event back to its roots and back to pre-AC33 participation.  But GD chose the Russell Coutts route.  He chose a radical new design foiling mono-hull that will cost a considerable amount of money to design and build for a venue in a location far from where a majority of sponsors want to spend their money.  As a result only a select few challengers are willing to participate.  Its AC34 all over again.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

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17 hours ago, rh2600 said:

(...)

Rennie said she wished for regular monos ala 'scaled-up TP52s"

you said you 'couldn't agree more' and then blamed PB for the monos not being regular, as GD 'had to kowtow to his Poodle COR'

Which is wrong - ironically Rennmaus and PB (and you too if you could make your mind up) are probably in agreement in their wishes for a regular mono...

Blame GD all you want for the AC75 freaky bits, but suggesting it was due to kowtowing LR is just plain wrong... you seem desperate to add that little dig to everything you write...even when logic defies it... that is what is sad...

BTW - There will only ever be one set of poodles mate... your efforts to change that are futile and petty... invent another name for PB if you want...but everyone knows who the poodles were/are...

 

Bold: Not quite: I said that I wish for unlimited design, à la AC33. But others (GD) wished for lots of challengers, hence a scaled-up TP52 or AC50 would have helped to meet that requirement (not mine, GDs). Hence GD is the master of this Cup with his decisions, he made a decision that led to his requirement to fail.

As for the rest: I am pretty sure that the boat was wanted by GD at least as much as by PatBert. No poodling here.
 

17 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

GD is trying like hell to get more teams, has indicated as much, Auckland City Council and the Govt are/were expecting more teams for the massive investment and ‘host fee’ based on the Economic Impact’s report that depended largely on the number of Challengers, (...)

This.
 

14 hours ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

I remember this well.

I'm an ETNZ fan through and through ... but I feel uncomfortable that GD is now defending a very expensive boat with, lets be honest, not many challengers. The very things he has been strongly criticising for years.

This too.
 

3 hours ago, RobG said:

"Constructed" is defined in detail in the Protocol, section 9. A relevant part regarding "is constructed in the country of":

…shall be deemed to be satisfied by the lamination or another form of construction of the hull in such country

It goes on to explicitly say that replacement bows and sterns and all other parts of the boat can be constructed anywhere.

The only sensible way to interpret this is that the main hull must be built in the team's home country, everything else (including design, tooling, equipment and the people doing the work) can come from anywhere, without restriction.

There is no restriction at all on the nationality or domicile of the people doing any of the work. And once the hull has been given a "Constructed in the Country Certificate", it can be repaired and modified anywhere.

(...)

Thank you, but this is the protocol, while I was talking about the DoG. CiC (and "constructed") is unfortunately not defined in the DoG, therefore I challenged Oracle's and to a certain extend ETNZ's interpretation in their protocols.
It's an academic discussion as long as the NYSC does not rule on it, but I need that trolling every now and then.

 

10 minutes ago, WetHog said:

You can blame Uncle Larry all you like but the current state of the AC is all on GD.  He had the choice to either continue with the foiling multi's, which would of enticed a number of AC35 teams to continue and attract other teams like Alinghi to join, or choose a more conservative new mono-hull boat design on the level of a enhanced TP52 or other current mono-hull designs (like Comanche) that would of been easier on the wallet to design and build in order to attract a number of established and new challengers. 

Either option could of been a much needed reboot to the AC to get the event back to its roots and back to pre-AC33 participation.  But GD chose the Russell Coutts route.  He chose a radical new design foiling mono-hull that will cost a considerable amount of money to design and build for a venue in a location far from where a majority of sponsors want to spend their money.  As a result only a select few challengers are willing to participate.  Its AC34 all over again.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Eloquently put, if you read of = have :)

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

Yes entering early is important.  Thats why the Brits and the Yanks entered well before the entry close.  And purchasing a design package is far from optimum.  Perfect example is LR in AC34.  Established AC team purchases a proven design package late in the Cup cycle but was shit when the competition started.  Why would that be different for AC36, especially if a brand new team goes the same route?

Speaking of AC34, considering the new boat design and the limited number of challengers for AC36 at this point its looking like AC34 all over again.  Even venue selection and scope went through a similar hassle.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Its like beating your head against a brick wall trying to explain it to you. The difference between AC34 and AC36, is AC34 has 3 challengers but only one who was serious. The Kiwi's were always going to be the challenger, Artemis were rubbish, not because of the death of Bart, but because they had an incompetent design team. LR were there because of the Kiwi's but were never going to beat them.

AC35 had two challengers who were serious about winning, both of whom would've killed the defender. One who was there to help the defender retain, another who had no chance in hell (France) and BAR who were a long shot as they were a startup team, so really what we have now in terms of quality is better than both previous cycles. The numbers are irrelevant.

AC36 has 3 challengers and one defender who have the intent, the means and the ability to win the Cup.  They also have room and positions for startup teams. 

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29 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Its like beating your head against a brick wall trying to explain it to you. The difference between AC34 and AC36, is AC34 has 3 challengers but only one who was serious. The Kiwi's were always going to be the challenger, Artemis were rubbish, not because of the death of Bart, but because they had an incompetent design team. LR were there because of the Kiwi's but were never going to beat them.

AC35 had two challengers who were serious about winning, both of whom would've killed the defender. One who was there to help the defender retain, another who had no chance in hell (France) and BAR who were a long shot as they were a startup team, so really what we have now in terms of quality is better than both previous cycles. The numbers are irrelevant.

AC36 has 3 challengers and one defender who have the intent, the means and the ability to win the Cup.  They also have room and positions for startup teams. 

AC 34 and 36 are the same damn thing. A radical design driven by overblown Kiwi egos. It's more likely that all three of these challengers will get it wrong than all three will get it right. Most likely it will end up the same with one decent challenger, although I think that is even unlikely. Don't you always say money doesn't matter and now it does when defending your meager turnout? BAR is shit and will be again, LR is Italian and will find a way to lose no matter what and the US team is new. Only one of them will turn out good relative to the others just like 34 and the Kiwis will defend.

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44 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

AC 34 and 36 are the same damn thing. A radical design driven by overblown Kiwi egos. It's more likely that all three of these challengers will get it wrong than all three will get it right. Most likely it will end up the same with one decent challenger, although I think that is even unlikely. Don't you always say money doesn't matter and now it does when defending your meager turnout? BAR is shit and will be again, LR is Italian and will find a way to lose no matter what and the US team is new. Only one of them will turn out good relative to the others just like 34 and the Kiwis will defend.

They aren't the same thing though. You're just being an ass for the sake of being an ass. You have already dismissed a boat before even seeing one. Maybe its just easier if you don't watch or follow the AC, given you don't give a shit about anyone or anything to do with it.

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I love how people are calling Team Basher not serious?!?!

Last time they had a stupid amount of $$$ available early, a bunch of experienced AC sailors & a bunch of experienced design talent, they were considered a frontrunner right up till the racing showed they were behind.

 

If Team Basher wasn't serious then Team American Gandalf is also not serious by the same standard.

And if LR wasn't serious in AC34 then they aren't a serious team this time again by the same standard.

So that leaves us with Artemis who was a dangerous joke in AC34 & definitely had significant problems in AC35 too.

What an amazing lineup of talent! /s

 

Edit: wait a second, no Artemis? I thought they were definitely in? :blink:

So not even Artemis that was definitely in...

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2 hours ago, pusslicker said:

AC 34 and 36 are the same damn thing. A radical design driven by overblown Kiwi egos. It's more likely that all three of these challengers will get it wrong than all three will get it right. Most likely it will end up the same with one decent challenger, although I think that is even unlikely. Don't you always say money doesn't matter and now it does when defending your meager turnout? BAR is shit and will be again, LR is Italian and will find a way to lose no matter what and the US team is new. Only one of them will turn out good relative to the others just like 34 and the Kiwis will defend.

I would say 36 is worse than 34.  At least the initial design criteria for 34 was based upon a cat that was not supposed to fly, a concept that has been proven and sailed by thousands of people.  The Kiwi's were innovative enough to get them to fly and created a whole new set of complications and a whole new class of sailboats.  They were just beginning to learn how to sail those boats by time 35 came along  The 36 design has never been sailed before and is all based upon computer modeling, which one side holds all of the cards.  It is meant to fly, but many thing it will not for a majority of the races.

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I love that TNZL now call this group of challengers the "Super Teams", and no need for more teams,  when in reality (in this forum) they have already been defined as:

   - A US first time team sailed by grey-hairs -  that has no chance....

   - A Italian team that has already showed the world they can: 1. chose to race or not race on a given day 2. have the ability to quit a cycle - that has no chance and is a poodle....

   - And a team from the UK who could not get out of their way in the last cycle - that has no chance...

I for one think we only need these so called "super teams" lining up to sail the Gecco.... No Artemis, No Cammas, No Spanish teams, No teams from Asia.... That would be lame to have to watch.

Shame after supporting TNZL back to the 87 they could not come to the conclusion that a yacht for a yacht race might be a good idea.... Instead we get another bunch of supplied parts from one team,  supplied design packages, a boat that that is not transferable or relatable to the common sailor and 3 challengers groping around in the dark hoping they find the right solution to the gecco... Well 2  - We know ITA will have some good plans from TNZL.

Note - sarcasm... well part of it...

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ETNZ with their design head start will absolutely crush whoever the final surviving Challenger is. And the NZ public will love it, which is fine.

But it could be the start of a many-years long dynasty if other $B’s just move on to other pleasures instead. Boring for fans outside of NZ.

 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

ETNZ with their design head start will absolutely crush whoever the final surviving Challenger is. And the NZ public will love it, which is fine.

But it could be the start of a many-years long dynasty if other $B’s just move on to other pleasures instead. Boring for fans outside of NZ.

 

Does ETNZ really have a significant design advantage? Seems Team UK are the first to get anywhere near a test boat.

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2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

ETNZ with their design head start will absolutely crush whoever the final surviving Challenger is. And the NZ public will love it, which is fine.

But it could be the start of a many-years long dynasty if other $B’s just move on to other pleasures instead. Boring for fans outside of NZ.

 

It might be boring if only the AC was simple as all that eh... are you not familiar with it?

Perhaps more challengers would have increased the interest and excitement, but rest assured nothing would have been more boring than a continued AC50 circle-jerk in Bermuda, and case in-point, it was interesting how it transpired for that not to be the case...

History has also shown that rich men come and go from AC - there is and has always been significant churn - why are you so desperate for ocification of your most recent billionaires of choice?

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4 hours ago, mfluder said:

Does ETNZ really have a significant design advantage? Seems Team UK are the first to get anywhere near a test boat.

Didn't they conceive the rule? Don't the plucky ETNZ have their secret base and red paint?

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10 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Didn't they conceive the rule? Don't the plucky ETNZ have their secret base and red paint?

Yes they conceived the rule, with Luna Rossa. Does that give them an advantage? Maybe, maybe not. We will see in 2021. I remember when everyone thought ETNZ were disadvantaging themselves by staying in Auckland and choosing not to train with the Bermuda teams. That turned out to be wrong. Moral of the story, wait till it happens before dismissing it. IMO the only reason people are dismissing the boat before they see one, is because they're afraid the AC50's will be forgotten.

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30 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Yes they conceived the rule, with Luna Rossa. Does that give them an advantage? Maybe, maybe not. We will see in 2021. I remember when everyone thought ETNZ were disadvantaging themselves by staying in Auckland and choosing not to train with the Bermuda teams. That turned out to be wrong. Moral of the story, wait till it happens before dismissing it. IMO the only reason people are dismissing the boat before they see one, is because they're afraid the AC50's will be forgotten.

I think the AC50's will be forgotten because of the trouble that the wingsail causes. 

Lots of foiling cats are appearing now but they all have conventional soft rigs.

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17 hours ago, WetHog said:

[snip] a venue in a location far from where a majority of sponsors want to spend their money.  As a result only a select few challengers are willing to participate.  Its AC34 all over again.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

like the country that defender, the winner of the last Match, hails from?

STFU

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On 7/12/2018 at 3:24 PM, mfluder said:

What a bollocks comparison! in 2013, there was always only one team who was going to challenge for the Cup. LR was late and bought a design package. They raced a 1st gen boat against a faster 2nd gen boat. Their goal was to learn for the future.

Artemis didn't have a hope in hell of beating LR let alone winning the AC. ETNZ was well ahead of everyone including Oracle.

Look at the 3 now. All big budget teams with established, and successful design teams, experienced and successful sailing teams, as well as a defender who boasts one of the strongest sailing teams in the world today. All sailing revolutionary new boats the world has never seen. You have the worlds best sailors coupled with the unknown factor of boats no one has seen before. AC34 pales in comparison to AC36.

  

why do you say that LR would've beaten artemis so handily?

i have the feeling that LR had kind of plateaued by ac34 and 35, they've has plenty of shots at the mug but never really gotten anywhere.

ETNZ defenitly had it from the start, but if artemis somehow made it through due to the flip or a miracle they also would've reamed oracle

although i don't think oracle would of minded so much compared to what happened hahaha

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20 hours ago, mfluder said:

Its like beating your head against a brick wall trying to explain it to you. The difference between AC34 and AC36, is AC34 has 3 challengers but only one who was serious. The Kiwi's were always going to be the challenger, Artemis were rubbish, not because of the death of Bart, but because they had an incompetent design team. LR were there because of the Kiwi's but were never going to beat them.

AC35 had two challengers who were serious about winning, both of whom would've killed the defender. One who was there to help the defender retain, another who had no chance in hell (France) and BAR who were a long shot as they were a startup team, so really what we have now in terms of quality is better than both previous cycles. The numbers are irrelevant.

AC36 has 3 challengers and one defender who have the intent, the means and the ability to win the Cup.  They also have room and positions for startup teams. 

At this point for AC34 Artemis was perceived to have the intent, means and ability to win the Cup.  Brand new team with a deep pocket owner, Casper as Skipper and Juan K as designer.  They also were very competitive in the ACWS.  It wasn't till they got to SF and it became clear Juan K wasn't up to the challenge of designing a AC72, Casper was kicked to the curb and their after thought status was cemented.  American Magic is in a similar situation.  Brand new team with deep pocket backers, Casper as Skipper and Botin as their designer.  On paper they, just like Artemis, look like a legit new challenger but a lot can happen between now and the start of the PC to change that perception.

As for Luna Rosa, they haven't been a legit AC team since AC32.  Thats over 10 years ago and they were swept in the LVC Final.  So pump the breaks on declaring them a no doubt legit contender.  They have a lot to prove.

That leaves BAR.  That team has the intent, means, ability and one of the most talented and tenacious sailors in charge of the team.  They also have one AC cycle under their belt to fall back on in regards to learning from mistakes and applying them to their current attempt at the Cup.  Right now they have to be considered the lone legit challenger at this point and the favorite to meet ETNZ in the AC final.

So, yeah, none of the current teams fit the B team/Poodle role that LR and Soft Dick Japan filled in the last two Cup cycles but there is one clear legit challenger in BAR, one filling the Artemis role of unproven newcomer with American Magic and then there is Luna Rosa.  Established team that hasn't been a serious contender in over a decade.  This list of challengers when compared to AC34 and they look very similar.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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5 hours ago, barfy said:

like the country that defender, the winner of the last Match, hails from?

STFU

Yes, and after the bull shit OR pulled its nice to see the Defender defend in their home waters.  But my point stands, New Zealand is a long way away from where the majority of potential AC sponsors want to spend their money so choosing a radical foiling mono-hull design for AC35 was not a good decision.  Choosing a modified TP52, or other current high performance mono-hull design, would have lowered the design/build price of the new boats and as a result made it more appealing for those sponsors to invest in multiple challengers for AC36.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Just now, WetHog said:

At this point for AC34 Artemis was perceived to have the intent, means and ability to win the Cup.  Brand new team with a deep pocket owner, Casper as Skipper and Juan K as designer.  They also were very competitive in the ACWS.  It wasn't till they got to SF and it became clear Juan K wasn't up to the challenge of designing a AC72, Casper was kicked to the curb and their after thought status was cemented.  American Magic is in a similar situation.  Brand new team with deep pocket backers, Casper as Skipper and Botin as their designer.  On paper they, just like Artemis, look like a legit new challenger but a lot can happen between now and the start of the PC to change that perception.

 As for Luna Rosa, they haven't been a legit AC team since AC32.  Thats over 10 years ago and they were swept in the LVC Final.  So pump the breaks on declaring them a no doubt legit contender.  They have a lot to prove.

 That leaves BAR.  That team has the intent, means, ability and one of the most talented and tenacious sailors in charge of the team.  They also have one AC cycle under their belt to fall back on in regards to learning from mistakes and applying them to their current attempt at the Cup.  Right now they have to be considered the lone legit challenger at this point and the favorite to meet ETNZ in the AC final.

So, yeah, none of the current teams fit the B team/Poodle role that LR and Soft Dick Japan filled in the last two Cup cycles but there is one clear legit challenger in BAR, one filling the Artemis role of unproven newcomer with American Magic and then there is Luna Rosa.  Established team that hasn't been a serious contender in over a decade.  This list of challengers when compared to AC34 and they look very similar.

WetHog  :ph34r:

STOP

this does not conform to the narrative though

luna rossa is butt buddies with ETNZ so we like them

they MUST be a serious contender for the cup

whats more, they WOULD OF DEFINITELY been soooooooo fast last cup magically if grr grr oracle grr didn't make the boats better after very basic and translatable R and D had been performed. grr, i hate those oracle guys, they make me angrrreeyyyy grr grr

and after stating that money doesn't equal speed (look at the last cup sillies!{ha, we showed those capitalist pigs}), we must now go back on our word and say that the brand new american team MUST be in the race to win

(it's also because we like them though, i love it when oracle is replaced, and i bet that these guys will do a better job of choosing people with the same nationality so we love them for that)

but team GBR didn't win like ETNZ did last time (and LR would've too) so they're SHIT

 

 

 

did i use the right satirical colour?

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12 hours ago, mfluder said:

Yes they conceived the rule, with Luna Rossa. Does that give them an advantage? Maybe, maybe not. We will see in 2021. I remember when everyone thought ETNZ were disadvantaging themselves by staying in Auckland and choosing not to train with the Bermuda teams. That turned out to be wrong. Moral of the story, wait till it happens before dismissing it. IMO the only reason people are dismissing the boat before they see one, is because they're afraid the AC50's will be forgotten.

Ha, certainly not. The sooner the toy boats are forgotten, the better.

That doesn't mean that I like the current boat, but we'll see...

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

...........  But my point stands, New Zealand is a long way away from where the majority of potential AC sponsors want to spend their money so choosing a radical foiling mono-hull design for AC35 was not a good decision.  Choosing a modified TP52, or other current high performance mono-hull design, would have lowered the design/build price of the new boats and as a result made it more appealing for those sponsors to invest in multiple challengers for AC36.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Priorities mate....they need to be juggled anew each time

Yours ^ was clearly not considered preeminent - by those who earned the right to choose :(

or there was a screw-up.......

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1 hour ago, inebriated said:

STOP

this does not conform to the narrative though

luna rossa is butt buddies with ETNZ so we like them

they MUST be a serious contender for the cup

whats more, they WOULD OF DEFINITELY been soooooooo fast last cup magically if grr grr oracle grr didn't make the boats better after very basic and translatable R and D had been performed. grr, i hate those oracle guys, they make me angrrreeyyyy grr grr

and after stating that money doesn't equal speed (look at the last cup sillies!{ha, we showed those capitalist pigs}), we must now go back on our word and say that the brand new american team MUST be in the race to win

(it's also because we like them though, i love it when oracle is replaced, and i bet that these guys will do a better job of choosing people with the same nationality so we love them for that)

but team GBR didn't win like ETNZ did last time (and LR would've too) so they're SHIT

 

 

 

did i use the right satirical colour?

Go back to playing with your toys. The grown ups are talking.

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4 hours ago, WetHog said:

 But my point stands, New Zealand is a long way away from where the majority of potential AC sponsors want to spend their money...

All this does is demonstrate your small mindedness and lack of understanding of the bigger world that exists outside of your Trumpland.

Money knows no distance it can't travel, and neither does the content it seeks to acquire. 

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3 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

All this does is demonstrate your...understanding of the bigger world that exists...

Well thanks.  I knew you would come around.  :lol:  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, rh2600 said:

All this does is demonstrate your small mindedness and lack of understanding of the bigger world that exists outside of your Trumpland.

Money knows no distance it can't travel, and neither does the content it seeks to acquire. 

Soggy_porkie also conveniently overlooks the fact that one of the biggest spenders in sports advertising and sponsorships in the world is happily spending in Auckland - footer-logo.png.bcd1b0e7a0e8697176a1d930256c8d38.png

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

Well thanks.  I knew you would come around.  :lol:  

WetHog  :ph34r:

oh... dear me...

Hoggy... let's walk this through...the compromised sponsorship that you are referring to, this is in regards to sponsors providing money to teams in order to give them a budget to compete?

Just want to ensure I fully understand what you mean...

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7 hours ago, WetHog said:

Yes, and after the bull shit OR pulled its nice to see the Defender defend in their home waters.  But my point stands, New Zealand is a long way away from where the majority of potential AC sponsors Billionaires want to spend their money so choosing a radical foiling mono-hull design for AC35 was not a good decision, because the billionaires know they can't beat the Kiwis if they can't buy them.  Choosing a modified TP52, or other current high performance mono-hull design, would have lowered the design/build price of the new boats and as a result made it more appealing for those sponsors to invest in multiple challengers for AC36.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Fixed:D

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10 hours ago, WetHog said:

Yes, and after the bull shit OR pulled its nice to see the Defender defend in their home waters.  But my point stands, New Zealand is a long way away from where the majority of potential AC sponsors want to spend their money so choosing a radical foiling mono-hull design for AC35 was not a good decision.  Choosing a modified TP52, or other current high performance mono-hull design, would have lowered the design/build price of the new boats and as a result made it more appealing for those sponsors to invest in multiple challengers for AC36.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

if the Match was degraded to suit travel plans no-one would be happy.

I do believe that free to air and Youtube? or some such broadcast in the global village makes location, other than being a sailing venue, unimportant. Bermuda was nice to sail in, irrespective of the home water issue. Having coverage limited to an app that 5000? folk downloaded was a poorly thought out marketing strategy, chronic short term corporate thinking. Get money for app now, screw all the other sponsors for future campaigns.

GD has stated that won't happen this time. 

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13 hours ago, Indio said:

 

Soggy_porkie also conveniently overlooks the fact that one of the biggest spenders in sports advertising and sponsorships in the world is happily spending in Auckland - footer-logo.png.bcd1b0e7a0e8697176a1d930256c8d38.png

Denying fact is what they do now, more openly than ever :(

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On 7/14/2018 at 12:42 AM, mfluder said:

Go back to playing with your toys. The grown ups are talking.

yeah but you won't say this isn't how you guys think

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5 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

So, four teams?  Any legitimate chance, at this point, of any others?

Slim chances... We've got the crazy second italian team still in fits and starts, and Cammas still hunting money, and that other US team... 

All long shots at this point...

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2 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Slim chances... We've got the crazy second italian team still in fits and starts, and Cammas still hunting money, and that other US team... 

All long shots at this point...

With the crazy design and hosting in NZ (nothing against NZ other than the time zone), I just don't see it happening.... too much risk and too little reward.  Had they gone with something less revolutionary, say a 65' version of the AC50, I'm guessing they would have landed at least three more teams that would have been more comfortable with the risk and could have better handled the expense. 

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55 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

With the crazy design and hosting in NZ (nothing against NZ other than the time zone), I just don't see it happening.... too much risk and too little reward.  Had they gone with something less revolutionary, say a 65' version of the AC50, I'm guessing they would have landed at least three more teams that would have been more comfortable with the risk and could have better handled the expense. 

"Had they gone with something less revolutionary" Staying at the forefront of innovation and design is what the Americas Cup is about. 

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7 minutes ago, mfluder said:

"Had they gone with something less revolutionary" Staying at the forefront of innovation and design is what the Americas Cup is about. 

Having done something not even remotely like anything ever done before is not.  And you, in your water-carrying-way, can't just admit I have a point... the boat picked is NOT one that would facilitate higher numbers of teams... and to be clear, I am not one who needs 10 teams (or even more than the 4 signed up).

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I still think there might be a Starter to AC37 wanting to start the learning as Frank did in AC35 as a possibility.  If you are going to be a serious player in AC37 you should be in AC36??

Who knows.

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22 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

Having done something not even remotely like anything ever done before is not.  And you, in your water-carrying-way, can't just admit I have a point... the boat picked is NOT one that would facilitate higher numbers of teams... and to be clear, I am not one who needs 10 teams (or even more than the 4 signed up).

The point is, why just go with something thats been done before, when you can do something that hasn't? NZ teams have always been revolutionary in their thinking. 

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14 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

I still think there might be a Starter to AC37 wanting to start the learning as Frank did in AC35 as a possibility.  If you are going to be a serious player in AC37 you should be in AC36??

Who knows.

This is kind of my point.... had this been in something where a model (say, a 65' version of the AC50) already existed, the probability would have been much higher. But jumping into the game with this boat is pretty sketchy unless money is seriously no object.

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4 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

This is kind of my point.... had this been in something where a model (say, a 65' version of the AC50) already existed, the probability would have been much higher. But jumping into the game with this boat is pretty sketchy unless money is seriously no object.

That's good thinking...but that visionary LE beat you to it. He's already flogging a OD circuit using say, a version of an AC50.

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14 minutes ago, mfluder said:

The point is, why just go with something thats been done before, when you can do something that hasn't? NZ teams have always been revolutionary in their thinking. 

What's funny, is you are the type of guy that criticized ORUSA for going with a catamaran, the type of guy who used to pine for the days when boats could be related to by the average-sailor, but now you want to defend every consideration related to the most fricking crazy revolutionary concept ever considered for the AC, all while missing the point.  If you had utilized any reading comprehension, you would recognize the point being made was not critical of doing something revolutionary, or expensive, the point was that doing so to this degree will limit the number of teams to want to, or be able to, play. 

Personally, I'm totally OK with going revolutionary and I'm totally OK with relatively few teams playing.... I'm just pointing out that there was no way this AC was going to have many teams the second they decided to go with this boat concept.

Now, that being said, I continue to say this was a pretty silly manner of going extreme on the revolutionary angle... the reason being is the limitation of making the boat LOOK kind of like a monohull, rather than taking the cuffs off and just letting the designers come up with the best mouse trap with more open rules.  If the best concept ended up looking like this design, then fine.  But saying this is a monohull when it functions as a multi-hull, demanding that we take this route to gain the performance of a multi but at extreme cost and design/performance unknowns, well, that part has questionable logic.

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1 hour ago, GauchoGreg said:

With the crazy design and hosting in NZ (nothing against NZ other than the time zone), I just don't see it happening.... too much risk and too little reward.  Had they gone with something less revolutionary, say a 65' version of the AC50, I'm guessing they would have landed at least three more teams that would have been more comfortable with the risk and could have better handled the expense. 

I'm not worried about having only 3 Challengers - they are legitimate well-resourced Challengers who can afford to compete at the design and technology levels and sailing personnel unconstrained by funding shortage. Very similar to Bermuda where there were realistically only 3 serious Challengers: ETNZ, Artemis, BAR. I'd rather have 3 serious Challengers than 6 or 7 if the other 3 or 4 are just there to make up the numbers..

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1 hour ago, Kiwing said:

I still think there might be a Starter to AC37 wanting to start the learning as Frank did in AC35 as a possibility.  If you are going to be a serious player in AC37 you should be in AC36??

Who knows.

Seng Huang Lee has made it clear that the Scallywag team are closely following the progress of AC36 with the possibility of challenging in AC37. They are ramping up their campaign with the 100 footer and working on building a more professional team (hands up who'd like to see Witty in the AC? Now that would put the cat amongst the pigeons!).

Anyway, it must be bloody hard to know when to dive in, especially with a new and unproven design rule. Early adopters could get burnt to the tune of $100M+ ... but leave it to round two and you might be permanently left behind.

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1 hour ago, GauchoGreg said:

What's funny, is you are the type of guy that criticized ORUSA for going with a catamaran, the type of guy who used to pine for the days when boats could be related to by the average-sailor, but now you want to defend every consideration related to the most fricking crazy revolutionary concept ever considered for the AC, all while missing the point.  If you had utilized any reading comprehension, you would recognize the point being made was not critical of doing something revolutionary, or expensive, the point was that doing so to this degree will limit the number of teams to want to, or be able to, play. 

Personally, I'm totally OK with going revolutionary and I'm totally OK with relatively few teams playing.... I'm just pointing out that there was no way this AC was going to have many teams the second they decided to go with this boat concept.

Now, that being said, I continue to say this was a pretty silly manner of going extreme on the revolutionary angle... the reason being is the limitation of making the boat LOOK kind of like a monohull, rather than taking the cuffs off and just letting the designers come up with the best mouse trap with more open rules.  If the best concept ended up looking like this design, then fine.  But saying this is a monohull when it functions as a multi-hull, demanding that we take this route to gain the performance of a multi but at extreme cost and design/performance unknowns, well, that part has questionable logic.

I'm the type of guy who enjoys the technology, and the thinking behind the concepts. Lets be honest, the Oracle design for the AC72 would've been a HUGE failure if not for ETNZ pioneering foiling in the Americas Cup. It was the innovative thinking of the ETNZ design team that allowed the cats to become as popular as they were. Imagine if those cats had not been able to foil (as according to the original AC72 rule) it probably would not have led to the AC50 being as successful as it was. Innovative thinking allowed ETNZ to run away with the match in Bermuda. 

It makes no sense to say you're okay with the number of teams that have so far entered and then be critical of the design because it may have limited the number of teams. Personally, I'm fine with the number of teams, because the teams that have entered, have entered with the intent to win the Americas Cup from the defender, and all have the means and ability to do just that. The competition is genuine, unlike Bermuda.

The argument of "Oh it looks like a monohull but acts like a Multihull" is boring. Who cares if it acts like a multihull? You are the type of guy who pines for Multihulls, well if it acts like a multihull, shouldn't you be happy? Whats the difference between having one hull or two if the characteristics are the same? 

The costs have always been extreme! The costs argument is irrelevant. If the AC50's were chosen again, that would not have stopped Ben AInslie from building a $200 million dollar budget if thats what he thought it would take to win. BAR had one of the largest budgets (if not THE largest budget in Bermuda, and he didn't even make the final). Teams will spend what ever they want to spend, or feel like they should spend to win, but if we learned anything from last time, its that the size of a budget can be irrelevant if you're not spending it in the right places. 

 

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1 hour ago, GauchoGreg said:

 

 the reason being is the limitation of making the boat LOOK kind of like a monohull, rather than taking the cuffs off and just letting the designers come up with the best mouse trap with more open rules.  If the best concept ended up looking like this design, then fine.  But saying this is a monohull when it functions as a multi-hull, demanding that we take this route to gain the performance of a multi but at extreme cost and design/performance unknowns, well, that part has questionable logic.

In its most basic definition it's a monohull - it has just one hull. Just because the foils poke out the sides does not make it a cat or a tri. Imoca's have foils poking out the sides, and no one calls them multis. No matter the shape or position, a foil is not and never will be considered a hull.

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5 hours ago, GauchoGreg said:

hosting in NZ (nothing against NZ other than the time zone), I just don't see it happening.... 

I'm still waiting for someone to provide a meaningful argument that the NZ timezone can and has had an effect on sponsorship and thus entrants...

IMHO it's an easy assumption to make but it doesn't hold up to any real scrutiny once you start thinking about it...

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3 hours ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Seng Huang Lee has made it clear that the Scallywag team are closely following the progress of AC36 with the possibility of challenging in AC37. They are ramping up their campaign with the 100 footer and working on building a more professional team (hands up who'd like to see Witty in the AC? Now that would put the cat amongst the pigeons!).

Anyway, it must be bloody hard to know when to dive in, especially with a new and unproven design rule. Early adopters could get burnt to the tune of $100M+ ... but leave it to round two and you might be permanently left behind.

But what is the point?  AC37 will not have anything in common with AC36.  Once the challenger beats NZ they will throw away this ridiculous design of a boat.  They have basically made it a farce by trying to be cute with the radical boat design.

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The etnz designers already had a go at this design previously, they liked the possibilities of what they had drawn, and wanted a go at flying one. I think the LR influence in the choice is overplayed, not too mention trolled endlessly.

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18 minutes ago, Herfy said:

But what is the point?  AC37 will not have anything in common with AC36.  Once the challenger beats NZ they will throw away this ridiculous design of a boat.  They have basically made it a farce by trying to be cute with the radical boat design.

Are you sure about that? Ainslie and the American syndicate have both expressed their approval with the design chosen. 

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3 hours ago, mfluder said:

Lets be honest, the Oracle design for the AC72 would've been a HUGE failure if not for ETNZ pioneering foiling in the Americas Cup.

In order to establish that, you must first define what "huge failure" means.

From my perspective, while foiling certainly increased interest, most people follow the America's Cup because it's the America's Cup, not because the boats started foiling. And had they not foiled, I doubt that interest would have been much less. For those attracted to the event solely by foiling, it was as a short–lived curiosity, not lasting interest.

I asked at my club just yesterday what people thought of the AC75 Class. Most just shrugged. Again, they're curious to see how they go, but think they're as relevant to boats as F1 DRS is to automobiles.

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11 hours ago, mfluder said:

"Had they gone with something less revolutionary" Staying at the forefront of innovation and design is what the Americas Cup is about. 

whaaaaaaaaaaat the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

bit i am guessing that you loved the IACC days when the rule remained virtually unchanged for how many years??

and 12's too

you can be revolutionary without changing the rules every cycle

you seriously think that if the AC50 had done another cycle then it would have not been revolutionary?

if staying at the forefront of innovation and design is changing classes every cup, then it most surely is not what the AC is about

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Supreme irony, the same fans who claimed OR failed for lack of teams are now boasting that 3 team enough for them.

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4 teams, 3 challengers. But yes, one-eyed partisanship is not in short supply. Too boring to be worth arguing with most of the time. 

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58 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Too boring to be worth arguing with most of the time. 

Describes the AC forum well I'd say.

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13 hours ago, mfluder said:

I'm the type of guy who enjoys the technology, and the thinking behind the concepts. Lets be honest, the Oracle design for the AC72 would've been a HUGE failure if not for ETNZ pioneering foiling in the Americas Cup. It was the innovative thinking of the ETNZ design team that allowed the cats to become as popular as they were. Imagine if those cats had not been able to foil (as according to the original AC72 rule) it probably would not have led to the AC50 being as successful as it was. Innovative thinking allowed ETNZ to run away with the match in Bermuda. 

It makes no sense to say you're okay with the number of teams that have so far entered and then be critical of the design because it may have limited the number of teams. Personally, I'm fine with the number of teams, because the teams that have entered, have entered with the intent to win the Americas Cup from the defender, and all have the means and ability to do just that. The competition is genuine, unlike Bermuda.

The argument of "Oh it looks like a monohull but acts like a Multihull" is boring. Who cares if it acts like a multihull? You are the type of guy who pines for Multihulls, well if it acts like a multihull, shouldn't you be happy? Whats the difference between having one hull or two if the characteristics are the same? 

The costs have always been extreme! The costs argument is irrelevant. If the AC50's were chosen again, that would not have stopped Ben AInslie from building a $200 million dollar budget if thats what he thought it would take to win. BAR had one of the largest budgets (if not THE largest budget in Bermuda, and he didn't even make the final). Teams will spend what ever they want to spend, or feel like they should spend to win, but if we learned anything from last time, its that the size of a budget can be irrelevant if you're not spending it in the right places. 

 

You really  have no reading comprehension.  I mean, like none at all.  Yes, I'm not one critical of the number of teams (I am fine with four good teams), I'm critical of those who claimed there would be more (and tried to refute those of us that doubted it), and I'm critical of those who for years pumped criticism toward ORUSA for not taking a route that would have led to more teams.  In my OP on this issue, I was simply pointing out that there would only be four teams.... I did not claim a failure on that basis.  It is not that the richest teams wouldn't win, it is simply pointing out that there would have been more teams had they gone with the general design that would have been better proven (and could have outperformed the proposed AC75s without the requirement of a single hull).  A 65'ish, more robustly built AC50ish boat, or (opening things up more) a foiling trimaran of similar size (say an around-the-cans version of BP/Gitana/Macif), would have been far less daunting than these crazy critters.

The point of it being a "monohull" is that it was PURELY based on satisfying the vanity of an Italian billionaire rather than the option for best performance (and, yes, less risk .... physical and financial) with more reasonable cost (to allow teams with tighter budgets to compete).  The demand of having a "monohull", but with similar performance, forced an unnecessary challenge and great uncertainty.

By the way, the AC72 would not have been a "failure" had they raced in archimedean mode, or skimmed like the first models were showing.... they still would have been fast as hell and fun to watch, but certainly not as exciting, and the racing would not likely have been as close as we saw in SFO.

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13 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

In its most basic definition it's a monohull - it has just one hull. Just because the foils poke out the sides does not make it a cat or a tri. Imoca's have foils poking out the sides, and no one calls them multis. No matter the shape or position, a foil is not and never will be considered a hull.

They (Imocas) do not foil other than for tiny moments.  Further, they are not claiming to be the most advanced, cutting edge, fastest boats on the water, but rather a design-restricted RTW fleet race.  The Ultims are what is deemed the fastest boats on the water for the same type of racing.

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10 hours ago, mfluder said:

Are you sure about that? Ainslie and the American syndicate have both expressed their approval with the design chosen. 

Yeah, like they are going to say "this is stupid, can someone give us some money" and "come watch us race these stupid boats".  Of course they are going to be positive about the boats.

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14 hours ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

Seng Huang Lee has made it clear that the Scallywag team are closely following the progress of AC36 with the possibility of challenging in AC37. They are ramping up their campaign with the 100 footer and working on building a more professional team (hands up who'd like to see Witty in the AC? Now that would put the cat amongst the pigeons!).

Anyway, it must be bloody hard to know when to dive in, especially with a new and unproven design rule. Early adopters could get burnt to the tune of $100M+ ... but leave it to round two and you might be permanently left behind.

My hands are so up, they're touching the sky.

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6 hours ago, GauchoGreg said:

Yeah, like they are going to say "this is stupid, can someone give us some money" and "come watch us race these stupid boats".  Of course they are going to be positive about the boats.

Then again, perhaps they are actually impressed with the concept and enjoying the development of a brand new, revolutionary concept. Imagine that. I don't get the point about calling the boats "Stupid" while saying the performance will be similar to the AC50. Seems more like sour grapes from those Multihull enthusiasts who didn't get their way. 

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21 hours ago, mfluder said:

If the AC50's were chosen again, that would not have stopped Ben AInslie from building a $200 million dollar budget . 

 

It would mainly not prevent you from writing whatever.

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18 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It would mainly not prevent you from writing whatever.

whatever.

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7 hours ago, mfluder said:

Then again, perhaps they are actually impressed with the concept and enjoying the development of a brand new, revolutionary concept. Imagine that. I don't get the point about calling the boats "Stupid" while saying the performance will be similar to the AC50. Seems more like sour grapes from those Multihull enthusiasts who didn't get their way. 

They made clear past cup that their preferred option was the ac50, hence the London agreement you dumbass

also, reply to my message before, what are you. A fucking pussy?

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4 hours ago, inebriated said:

They made clear past cup that their preferred option was the ac50, hence the London agreement you dumbass

also, reply to my message before, what are you. A fucking pussy?

Then why didn't they enter Larrys supposed new series ya fucking clown! They chose this "Stupid boat" Over their "Preferred choice" Ben Ainslie himself stated when Multihulls were chosen, that he preferred Monohulls, because he himself is a monohull sailor. The reason they signed the Framework is because they prefer to win the AC, if signing a Framework agreement meant it brought them closer to winning the AC with Oracle being clear favorite to win at that time, guess what, they were going to sign it. If signing a partnership with a company that would be publicly perceived as going against all of the environmental values they held so high last time in return for a huge AC sponsorship budget, then guess what, they'll sign that partnership too. Signing the Framework wasn't about preferring the AC50, it was about the easiest road possible to winning the Cup. Winning the Americas Cup is their goal. So you're the fucking pussy!

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3 hours ago, mfluder said:

Then why didn't they enter Larrys supposed new series ya fucking clown! They chose this "Stupid boat" Over their "Preferred choice" Ben Ainslie himself stated when Multihulls were chosen, that he preferred Monohulls, because he himself is a monohull sailor. The reason they signed the Framework is because they prefer to win the AC, if signing a Framework agreement meant it brought them closer to winning the AC with Oracle being clear favorite to win at that time, guess what, they were going to sign it. If signing a partnership with a company that would be publicly perceived as going against all of the environmental values they held so high last time in return for a huge AC sponsorship budget, then guess what, they'll sign that partnership too. Signing the Framework wasn't about preferring the AC50, it was about the easiest road possible to winning the Cup. Winning the Americas Cup is their goal. So you're the fucking pussy!

they chose this over larry's AC circuit because uuuhhhhhhhh, larry's circuit isn't the AC

i am sure if they had a tenth of the funds they would join it if it even gets going, but why not go big, nobody remembers the winner of the ESS, this won't be any different

(disclaimer, it will still be sick to watch if it happens)

of course ben will say he preffers the current boats, he needs sponsors, we have been over this, although these "monohulls" won't have much to apply to from the ben's finn days really, the ac50 would be so much more relatable, hence them racing GC's instead of the TP.

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2 hours ago, inebriated said:

they chose this over larry's AC circuit because uuuhhhhhhhh, larry's circuit isn't the AC

i am sure if they had a tenth of the funds they would join it if it even gets going, but why not go big, nobody remembers the winner of the ESS, this won't be any different

(disclaimer, it will still be sick to watch if it happens)

of course ben will say he preffers the current boats, he needs sponsors, we have been over this, although these "monohulls" won't have much to apply to from the ben's finn days really, the ac50 would be so much more relatable, hence them racing GC's instead of the TP.

Hahaha so they don't prefer the AC50. If they did,k they would enter Larrys series instead of the AC. Like I said, you don't know anything, so stop acting like you do.

"If they had a tenth of the funds" They have the largest budget of all the teams! over $200 million dollars! If Ben thought it was important, they would be doing it, but they don't, because its not.

Ben doesn't need sponsors. They have INEOS who provides the budget they need. 

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3 hours ago, mfluder said:

Hahaha so they don't prefer the AC50. If they did,k they would enter Larrys series instead of the AC. Like I said, you don't know anything, so stop acting like you do.

"If they had a tenth of the funds" They have the largest budget of all the teams! over $200 million dollars! If Ben thought it was important, they would be doing it, but they don't, because its not.

Ben doesn't need sponsors. They have INEOS who provides the budget they need. 

They prefer money you fuckwit. Just because they don't enter Larry's series doesn't necessarily mean they don't prefer the AC50. Haven't you ever had to make a choice in life. I would prefer to sit at home all day and type nonsense on an sailing forum, but alas I have to make money. You would make a great Trumptard. Everything is black and white in your world isn't it?

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3 hours ago, mfluder said:

Hahaha so they don't prefer the AC50. If they did,k they would enter Larrys series instead of the AC. Like I said, you don't know anything, so stop acting like you do.

"If they had a tenth of the funds" They have the largest budget of all the teams! over $200 million dollars! If Ben thought it was important, they would be doing it, but they don't, because its not.

Ben doesn't need sponsors. They have INEOS who provides the budget they need. 

You really are a monumental water-carrier for the current organizers.... for all the talk of Oracle Fan-Boys, no one holds a candle to you in your pom-pom-pumping and intellectual dishonestly.  The AC, regardless of the boat, is still the top sailing race relative to public recognition and historic relevance... participating in the AC this time does not mean that the boat is the main draw, nor was it last time when ETNZ and Luna Rossa (before they pulled out) participated despite the boat.

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1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

They prefer money you fuckwit. Just because they don't enter Larry's series doesn't necessarily mean they don't prefer the AC50. Haven't you ever had to make a choice in life. I would prefer to sit at home all day and type nonsense on an sailing forum, but alas I have to make money. You would make a great Trumptard. Everything is black and white in your world isn't it?

Bullshit. Artemis faced the same choice because they preferred the AC50, so what did they do? Stuck to their guns and didn't enter, Fuck them! Ainslie could've done the same thing, after all, they both signed the irrelevant Framework agreement, yet Artemis is gone, and Team UK are still around. Land Rover was prepared to continue their sponsorship of BAR, so he could've carried on with Larrys series, but he didn't because the AC50's are irrelevant until a team who wins the AC chooses to use them again.

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1 hour ago, GauchoGreg said:

You really are a monumental water-carrier for the current organizers.... for all the talk of Oracle Fan-Boys, no one holds a candle to you in your pom-pom-pumping and intellectual dishonestly.  The AC, regardless of the boat, is still the top sailing race relative to public recognition and historic relevance... participating in the AC this time does not mean that the boat is the main draw, nor was it last time when ETNZ and Luna Rossa (before they pulled out) participated despite the boat.

No, I just don't like cheating in sport. If you condone it, then fine, thats your problem. But I would much rather support a team who doesn't cheat, and who doesn't fuck with the rules to eliminate their strongest opposition. 

The AC is the main draw. To participate in the AC you must design, build, and race the boats chosen. The new concept is revolutionary, that much is certain. 

"participating in the AC this time does not mean that the boat is the main draw" Yet you keep pining for the AC50, so obviously, it must be a huge part of the main draw.

 

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28 minutes ago, mfluder said:

No, I just don't like cheating in sport. If you condone it, then fine, thats your problem. But I would much rather support a team who doesn't cheat, and who doesn't fuck with the rules to eliminate their strongest opposition. 

The AC is the main draw. To participate in the AC you must design, build, and race the boats chosen. The new concept is revolutionary, that much is certain. 

"participating in the AC this time does not mean that the boat is the main draw" Yet you keep pining for the AC50, so obviously, it must be a huge part of the main draw.

 

Again, you REALLY suck at reading comprehension.  I did NOT like the AC50 (fun to watch race, but beyond that, meh). 

My perfect world, I would have much preferred much less of a One-Design set of rules, and instead have a pretty wide open box rule with no restrictions like they had on hull shapes, or even number of hulls, no restrictions on foil/rudder flaps, and no restrictions on sail/wing materials/shapes.  I would have much preferred a larger boat (65-75'), and I would have much preferred rules that would have forced the design/construction to have to accept far wider windows of conditions (wider wind range and sea-state) so that the boats would have been more robust...  I would call for boat platforms and sails/wings that are to be used in the actual racing to have to make an open water passage test (say with some kind of criteria like winds of more than 25knts, X' seas, and triangular course (with reaching and upwind/downwind, distance of 20 miles).  Foils could be swapped out from the boat that made the test, but platform and main wings/sails would have to remain the same.  This would weed out really far-out fragile designs.  I believe such a boat might actually have ended up being less expensive, and would certainly allow for the highest-potential for innovation and trickle-down, as well as make it more fascinating as a design competition, and even allow for some lower-budget team to come up with some flyer from Left Field.  So, given that ideal, the AC50 sucked.

I believe ETNZ had a great opportunity to really come up with a fantastic boat that would have also attracted more competitors, had they not gone with this crazy concept (without anything remotely similar as a model), just to make the Italian Billionaire happy.  I think they have a good philosophy of wanting the boat to be less of a flat-water sprinter, so I think a scaled up foiling cat or tri, without electrical or combustion power, removing the restrictions on flaps/controls, would have been awesome.

So, no, I'm not pining for the AC50, I'm just calling BS logic and BSers when I see them.

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On 8/19/2018 at 8:14 PM, mfluder said:

It was the innovative thinking of the ETNZ design team that allowed the cats to become as popular as they were.

 

Kiwi fan chest beating overpass OR ones. Don't break your arm... :rolleyes:

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18 hours ago, inebriated said:

They made clear past cup that their preferred option was the ac50, hence the London agreement you dumbass

The London agreement was a disgrace to the AC. I don't believe signing in any way indicated a teams true preference - it was just a manipulative way of handcuffing them to the LE/RC dream and the antithesis of what the spirit of the cup should be. I loved watching the AC50's, but the tortuous road to racing in Bermuda was a blight in AC history.

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1 hour ago, GauchoGreg said:

I believe ETNZ had a great opportunity to really come up with a fantastic boat that would have also attracted more competitors, had they not gone with this crazy concept (without anything remotely similar as a model), just to make the Italian Billionaire happy. 

I don't think the concept is crazy, and I like the fact it's not derivative. Their simulation tech is leading edge and they've leveraged that to come up with what I think is an outstanding concept. I think this would have been the boat they would have come up with, regardless of any promises and commitments made to the Italians. From all reports the Italians weren't entirely happy with the new rule, putting paid to suggestions that it was conceived to keep an Italian Billionaire happy.

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Kiwi fan chest beating overpass OR ones. Don't break your arm... :rolleyes:

Winners are grinners!!

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4 hours ago, mfluder said:

No, I just don't like cheating in sport.

I guess if you met Richie McCaw you'd refuse to shake his hand. Maybe you excuse his his cheating because he usually got away with it.

Quote

Rugby World Cup 2015: A 'cheat' to some, Richie McCaw rugby perfection in New Zealand

The word "cheat" has been used so many times about McCaw's style of breakdown play that it now has become part of any standard analysis of why he has become a player of such impetus and impact.

Former England five-eighth Stuart Barnes wrote in the English press that "McCaw is a cheat but that is his job". His defenders would suggest that McCaw has been the one man smart enough to exploit rugby's most complex area to officiate and if that fails, they can simply point to the scoreboard.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, RobG said:

I guess if you met Richie McCaw you'd refuse to shake his hand. Maybe you excuse his his cheating because he usually got away with it.

 

I don't believe Richie was a cheat. He just knew the laws of the game very well and played right to the edge of them. He got pinged on occasion - most good loosies do - but to label him a cheat is a disservice to his immense contribution he had on the game. Considered the GOAT by many in NZ and plenty world wide - and for good reason.

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10 hours ago, mfluder said:

Hahaha so they don't prefer the AC50. If they did,k they would enter Larrys series instead of the AC. Like I said, you don't know anything, so stop acting like you do.

"If they had a tenth of the funds" They have the largest budget of all the teams! over $200 million dollars! If Ben thought it was important, they would be doing it, but they don't, because its not.

Ben doesn't need sponsors. They have INEOS who provides the budget they need. 

are you autistic mate

choosing to do a series/competition has so much more to consider than just the boat, the AC is way bigger of a specticle than this ac50 circuit will ever be if it ever even exists in the first place

and yeah, they do have a massive budget, hence them doing a bigger campaign in a bigger event, are you just aggressivley agreeing with me here?

ben definitely did need sponsors before INEOS came along though, and he was talking about the boat before the sponsorship deal was announced

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5 hours ago, RobG said:

I guess if you met Richie McCaw you'd refuse to shake his hand. Maybe you excuse his his cheating because he usually got away with it.

 

Haha maybe if Richie evr got caught cheating like Oracle did, you'd be right. Unfortunately Richie is just a fantastic player, who will always be remembered for being as great as he was. Oracle will be remembered for cheating, and twisting the rules to suit themselves.

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12 hours ago, mfluder said:

Oracle will be remembered for cheating, and twisting the rules to suit themselves.

Not particularly.

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Only in a few minds. Unfortunately the world is full of shades of grey!

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2 hours ago, doghouse said:

Not particularly.

If you say so.

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14 hours ago, mfluder said:

Haha maybe if Richie evr got caught cheating like Oracle did, you'd be right. Unfortunately Richie is just a fantastic player, who will always be remembered for being as great as he was. Oracle will be remembered for cheating, and twisting the rules to suit themselves.

Not even close. Google " greatest sports comebacks "  and you will see what 99.9 % of the actual public will remember . SA is a very minor exception . 

https://www.sports-management-degrees.com/lists/five-greatest-sports-team-comebacks-in-history/

The America’s Cup is one of the world’s most famous sporting events. The 34th installment of this storied yachting event occurred in 2013 on San Francisco Bay, as Oracle Team USA defended the Cup against a boat representing the Royal New Zealand Yacht Club. The American boat found itself down eight races to one and facing elimination until they pulled off a historic, unprecedented comeback by winning seven races in a row. Trailing early in the first final winner-take-all race since 1983, Oracle Team USA came from behind to win the race successfully defending the oldest trophy in international sports.

https://hypebeast.com/2017/2/best-sports-comebacks-history-all-time    

While sailing isn’t a sport on most people’s radar, the America’s Cup finals is probably one that even novice sports fans have heard about. Considered as one of the greatest sporting comebacks of all time, the Oracle Team USA, defending the Auld Mug, came back from an 8-1 deficit to win eight consecutive races and claim victory in the first-to-nine series.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2057065-the-15-biggest-comebacks-in-sports#slide13

While sailing isn't necessarily a sport that most people set their DVR to stay up with, last year's America's Cup finals is probably one that even novice sports fans have heard about.

That's because it is, quite arguably, the best comeback in sports history.

With the race featuring a best-of-17 format, the America's Cup is the Super Bowl of sailing. The 2013 version didn't just extend to 19 races, but it ended with Oracle Team USA overcoming an 8-1 deficit—yes, on the verge of losing the series with just one race—to beat Emirates Team New Zealand in the 34th edition.

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, maxmini said:

Not even close. Google " greatest sports comebacks "  and you will see what 99.9 % of the actual public will remember . SA is a very minor exception . 

https://www.sports-management-degrees.com/lists/five-greatest-sports-team-comebacks-in-history/

The America’s Cup is one of the world’s most famous sporting events. The 34th installment of this storied yachting event occurred in 2013 on San Francisco Bay, as Oracle Team USA defended the Cup against a boat representing the Royal New Zealand Yacht Club. The American boat found itself down eight races to one and facing elimination until they pulled off a historic, unprecedented comeback by winning seven races in a row. Trailing early in the first final winner-take-all race since 1983, Oracle Team USA came from behind to win the race successfully defending the oldest trophy in international sports.

https://hypebeast.com/2017/2/best-sports-comebacks-history-all-time    

While sailing isn’t a sport on most people’s radar, the America’s Cup finals is probably one that even novice sports fans have heard about. Considered as one of the greatest sporting comebacks of all time, the Oracle Team USA, defending the Auld Mug, came back from an 8-1 deficit to win eight consecutive races and claim victory in the first-to-nine series.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2057065-the-15-biggest-comebacks-in-sports#slide13

While sailing isn't necessarily a sport that most people set their DVR to stay up with, last year's America's Cup finals is probably one that even novice sports fans have heard about.

That's because it is, quite arguably, the best comeback in sports history.

With the race featuring a best-of-17 format, the America's Cup is the Super Bowl of sailing. The 2013 version didn't just extend to 19 races, but it ended with Oracle Team USA overcoming an 8-1 deficit—yes, on the verge of losing the series with just one race—to beat Emirates Team New Zealand in the 34th edition.

 

 

 

Y'know there's a whole world out there - outside the USA - it's almost as if 95.6% of people don't live there... ;-)

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3 hours ago, maxmini said:

Not even close. Google " greatest sports comebacks "  and you will see what 99.9 % of the actual public will remember . SA is a very minor exception . 

https://www.sports-management-degrees.com/lists/five-greatest-sports-team-comebacks-in-history/

The America’s Cup is one of the world’s most famous sporting events. The 34th installment of this storied yachting event occurred in 2013 on San Francisco Bay, as Oracle Team USA defended the Cup against a boat representing the Royal New Zealand Yacht Club. The American boat found itself down eight races to one and facing elimination until they pulled off a historic, unprecedented comeback by winning seven races in a row. Trailing early in the first final winner-take-all race since 1983, Oracle Team USA came from behind to win the race successfully defending the oldest trophy in international sports.

https://hypebeast.com/2017/2/best-sports-comebacks-history-all-time    

While sailing isn’t a sport on most people’s radar, the America’s Cup finals is probably one that even novice sports fans have heard about. Considered as one of the greatest sporting comebacks of all time, the Oracle Team USA, defending the Auld Mug, came back from an 8-1 deficit to win eight consecutive races and claim victory in the first-to-nine series.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2057065-the-15-biggest-comebacks-in-sports#slide13

While sailing isn't necessarily a sport that most people set their DVR to stay up with, last year's America's Cup finals is probably one that even novice sports fans have heard about.

That's because it is, quite arguably, the best comeback in sports history.

With the race featuring a best-of-17 format, the America's Cup is the Super Bowl of sailing. The 2013 version didn't just extend to 19 races, but it ended with Oracle Team USA overcoming an 8-1 deficit—yes, on the verge of losing the series with just one race—to beat Emirates Team New Zealand in the 34th edition.

 

 

 

Blah blah blah...a lot of smoke blowing, but one word undoes all that...Cheating.

Mike Tyson was one of the greatest world champions of all time. Unfortunately he will always be remembered for trying to bite Holyfields ear off.

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5 hours ago, maxmini said:

Not even close. Google " greatest sports comebacks "  and you will see what 99.9 % of the actual public will remember . SA is a very minor exception . 

https://www.sports-management-degrees.com/lists/five-greatest-sports-team-comebacks-in-history/

The America’s Cup is one of the world’s most famous sporting events. The 34th installment of this storied yachting event occurred in 2013 on San Francisco Bay, as Oracle Team USA defended the Cup against a boat representing the Royal New Zealand Yacht Club. The American boat found itself down eight races to one and facing elimination until they pulled off a historic, unprecedented comeback by winning seven races in a row. Trailing early in the first final winner-take-all race since 1983, Oracle Team USA came from behind to win the race successfully defending the oldest trophy in international sports.

https://hypebeast.com/2017/2/best-sports-comebacks-history-all-time    

While sailing isn’t a sport on most people’s radar, the America’s Cup finals is probably one that even novice sports fans have heard about. Considered as one of the greatest sporting comebacks of all time, the Oracle Team USA, defending the Auld Mug, came back from an 8-1 deficit to win eight consecutive races and claim victory in the first-to-nine series.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2057065-the-15-biggest-comebacks-in-sports#slide13

While sailing isn't necessarily a sport that most people set their DVR to stay up with, last year's America's Cup finals is probably one that even novice sports fans have heard about.

That's because it is, quite arguably, the best comeback in sports history.

With the race featuring a best-of-17 format, the America's Cup is the Super Bowl of sailing. The 2013 version didn't just extend to 19 races, but it ended with Oracle Team USA overcoming an 8-1 deficit—yes, on the verge of losing the series with just one race—to beat Emirates Team New Zealand in the 34th edition.

 

 

 

To be honest this is the greatest comeback I have ever watched in sports, especially when you take into account the literal millions who play and billions who watch!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_UEFA_Champions_League_Final

0-3 down in Football is an absolute mountain to climb!

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5 minutes ago, Boybland said:

To be honest this is the greatest comeback I have ever watched in sports, especially when you take into account the literal millions who play and billions who watch!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_UEFA_Champions_League_Final

0-3 down in Football is an absolute mountain to climb!

But not 'muruka so not valid you see...

trump-look.gif

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3 hours ago, mfluder said:

Blah blah blah...a lot of smoke blowing, but one word undoes all that...Cheating.

Mike Tyson was one of the greatest world champions of all time. Unfortunately he will always be remembered for trying to bite Holyfields ear off.

You would be correct with the one exception that the percentage of people . not counting NZ , that have heard that word in comparison to " the greatest comeback in sports " is negligible. I feel your pain I really do as you must lay awake at night realizing that you and a few of your buddies are the only ones that know or care about the five lbs of misplaced led in a feeder series to a once great, but ever diminishing in relevance ,sailing regatta.

Tragic really (:

 

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11 minutes ago, maxmini said:

You would be correct with the one exception that the percentage of people . not counting NZ , that have heard that word in comparison to " the greatest comeback in sports " is negligible. I feel your pain I really do as you must lay awake at night realizing that you and a few of your buddies are the only ones that know or care about the five lbs of misplaced led in a feeder series to a once great, but ever diminishing in relevance ,sailing regatta.

Tragic really (:

 

Haha the only nation that apparently hasn't heard the word cheat is the US. And the US couldn't even scrape together 5 sailors to make a team. The public couldn't care less about Oracle Team USA, and the "Greatest comeback" was only parroted by those who didn't know better. The greatest comeback also has nothing to show for it. No legacy, and no future, so it will be a blemish in the history of the AC.

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