Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, mfluder said:

The answer was the same then as it is now and will be, until the damage done by Oracle Team USA is undone. That answer being...Larry Ellison came along.

 

You can blame Uncle Larry all you like but the current state of the AC is all on GD.  He had the choice to either continue with the foiling multi's, which would of enticed a number of AC35 teams to continue and attract other teams like Alinghi to join, or choose a more conservative new mono-hull boat design on the level of a enhanced TP52 or other current mono-hull designs (like Comanche) that would of been easier on the wallet to design and build in order to attract a number of established and new challengers. 

Either option could of been a much needed reboot to the AC to get the event back to its roots and back to pre-AC33 participation.  But GD chose the Russell Coutts route.  He chose a radical new design foiling mono-hull that will cost a considerable amount of money to design and build for a venue in a location far from where a majority of sponsors want to spend their money.  As a result only a select few challengers are willing to participate.  Its AC34 all over again.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, rh2600 said:

(...)

Rennie said she wished for regular monos ala 'scaled-up TP52s"

you said you 'couldn't agree more' and then blamed PB for the monos not being regular, as GD 'had to kowtow to his Poodle COR'

Which is wrong - ironically Rennmaus and PB (and you too if you could make your mind up) are probably in agreement in their wishes for a regular mono...

Blame GD all you want for the AC75 freaky bits, but suggesting it was due to kowtowing LR is just plain wrong... you seem desperate to add that little dig to everything you write...even when logic defies it... that is what is sad...

BTW - There will only ever be one set of poodles mate... your efforts to change that are futile and petty... invent another name for PB if you want...but everyone knows who the poodles were/are...

 

Bold: Not quite: I said that I wish for unlimited design, à la AC33. But others (GD) wished for lots of challengers, hence a scaled-up TP52 or AC50 would have helped to meet that requirement (not mine, GDs). Hence GD is the master of this Cup with his decisions, he made a decision that led to his requirement to fail.

As for the rest: I am pretty sure that the boat was wanted by GD at least as much as by PatBert. No poodling here.
 

17 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

GD is trying like hell to get more teams, has indicated as much, Auckland City Council and the Govt are/were expecting more teams for the massive investment and ‘host fee’ based on the Economic Impact’s report that depended largely on the number of Challengers, (...)

This.
 

14 hours ago, Sea Breeze 74 said:

I remember this well.

I'm an ETNZ fan through and through ... but I feel uncomfortable that GD is now defending a very expensive boat with, lets be honest, not many challengers. The very things he has been strongly criticising for years.

This too.
 

3 hours ago, RobG said:

"Constructed" is defined in detail in the Protocol, section 9. A relevant part regarding "is constructed in the country of":

…shall be deemed to be satisfied by the lamination or another form of construction of the hull in such country

It goes on to explicitly say that replacement bows and sterns and all other parts of the boat can be constructed anywhere.

The only sensible way to interpret this is that the main hull must be built in the team's home country, everything else (including design, tooling, equipment and the people doing the work) can come from anywhere, without restriction.

There is no restriction at all on the nationality or domicile of the people doing any of the work. And once the hull has been given a "Constructed in the Country Certificate", it can be repaired and modified anywhere.

(...)

Thank you, but this is the protocol, while I was talking about the DoG. CiC (and "constructed") is unfortunately not defined in the DoG, therefore I challenged Oracle's and to a certain extend ETNZ's interpretation in their protocols.
It's an academic discussion as long as the NYSC does not rule on it, but I need that trolling every now and then.

 

10 minutes ago, WetHog said:

You can blame Uncle Larry all you like but the current state of the AC is all on GD.  He had the choice to either continue with the foiling multi's, which would of enticed a number of AC35 teams to continue and attract other teams like Alinghi to join, or choose a more conservative new mono-hull boat design on the level of a enhanced TP52 or other current mono-hull designs (like Comanche) that would of been easier on the wallet to design and build in order to attract a number of established and new challengers. 

Either option could of been a much needed reboot to the AC to get the event back to its roots and back to pre-AC33 participation.  But GD chose the Russell Coutts route.  He chose a radical new design foiling mono-hull that will cost a considerable amount of money to design and build for a venue in a location far from where a majority of sponsors want to spend their money.  As a result only a select few challengers are willing to participate.  Its AC34 all over again.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Eloquently put, if you read of = have :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WetHog said:

Yes entering early is important.  Thats why the Brits and the Yanks entered well before the entry close.  And purchasing a design package is far from optimum.  Perfect example is LR in AC34.  Established AC team purchases a proven design package late in the Cup cycle but was shit when the competition started.  Why would that be different for AC36, especially if a brand new team goes the same route?

Speaking of AC34, considering the new boat design and the limited number of challengers for AC36 at this point its looking like AC34 all over again.  Even venue selection and scope went through a similar hassle.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Its like beating your head against a brick wall trying to explain it to you. The difference between AC34 and AC36, is AC34 has 3 challengers but only one who was serious. The Kiwi's were always going to be the challenger, Artemis were rubbish, not because of the death of Bart, but because they had an incompetent design team. LR were there because of the Kiwi's but were never going to beat them.

AC35 had two challengers who were serious about winning, both of whom would've killed the defender. One who was there to help the defender retain, another who had no chance in hell (France) and BAR who were a long shot as they were a startup team, so really what we have now in terms of quality is better than both previous cycles. The numbers are irrelevant.

AC36 has 3 challengers and one defender who have the intent, the means and the ability to win the Cup.  They also have room and positions for startup teams. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Its like beating your head against a brick wall trying to explain it to you. The difference between AC34 and AC36, is AC34 has 3 challengers but only one who was serious. The Kiwi's were always going to be the challenger, Artemis were rubbish, not because of the death of Bart, but because they had an incompetent design team. LR were there because of the Kiwi's but were never going to beat them.

AC35 had two challengers who were serious about winning, both of whom would've killed the defender. One who was there to help the defender retain, another who had no chance in hell (France) and BAR who were a long shot as they were a startup team, so really what we have now in terms of quality is better than both previous cycles. The numbers are irrelevant.

AC36 has 3 challengers and one defender who have the intent, the means and the ability to win the Cup.  They also have room and positions for startup teams. 

AC 34 and 36 are the same damn thing. A radical design driven by overblown Kiwi egos. It's more likely that all three of these challengers will get it wrong than all three will get it right. Most likely it will end up the same with one decent challenger, although I think that is even unlikely. Don't you always say money doesn't matter and now it does when defending your meager turnout? BAR is shit and will be again, LR is Italian and will find a way to lose no matter what and the US team is new. Only one of them will turn out good relative to the others just like 34 and the Kiwis will defend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

AC 34 and 36 are the same damn thing. A radical design driven by overblown Kiwi egos. It's more likely that all three of these challengers will get it wrong than all three will get it right. Most likely it will end up the same with one decent challenger, although I think that is even unlikely. Don't you always say money doesn't matter and now it does when defending your meager turnout? BAR is shit and will be again, LR is Italian and will find a way to lose no matter what and the US team is new. Only one of them will turn out good relative to the others just like 34 and the Kiwis will defend.

They aren't the same thing though. You're just being an ass for the sake of being an ass. You have already dismissed a boat before even seeing one. Maybe its just easier if you don't watch or follow the AC, given you don't give a shit about anyone or anything to do with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love how people are calling Team Basher not serious?!?!

Last time they had a stupid amount of $$$ available early, a bunch of experienced AC sailors & a bunch of experienced design talent, they were considered a frontrunner right up till the racing showed they were behind.

 

If Team Basher wasn't serious then Team American Gandalf is also not serious by the same standard.

And if LR wasn't serious in AC34 then they aren't a serious team this time again by the same standard.

So that leaves us with Artemis who was a dangerous joke in AC34 & definitely had significant problems in AC35 too.

What an amazing lineup of talent! /s

 

Edit: wait a second, no Artemis? I thought they were definitely in? :blink:

So not even Artemis that was definitely in...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, pusslicker said:

AC 34 and 36 are the same damn thing. A radical design driven by overblown Kiwi egos. It's more likely that all three of these challengers will get it wrong than all three will get it right. Most likely it will end up the same with one decent challenger, although I think that is even unlikely. Don't you always say money doesn't matter and now it does when defending your meager turnout? BAR is shit and will be again, LR is Italian and will find a way to lose no matter what and the US team is new. Only one of them will turn out good relative to the others just like 34 and the Kiwis will defend.

I would say 36 is worse than 34.  At least the initial design criteria for 34 was based upon a cat that was not supposed to fly, a concept that has been proven and sailed by thousands of people.  The Kiwi's were innovative enough to get them to fly and created a whole new set of complications and a whole new class of sailboats.  They were just beginning to learn how to sail those boats by time 35 came along  The 36 design has never been sailed before and is all based upon computer modeling, which one side holds all of the cards.  It is meant to fly, but many thing it will not for a majority of the races.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love that TNZL now call this group of challengers the "Super Teams", and no need for more teams,  when in reality (in this forum) they have already been defined as:

   - A US first time team sailed by grey-hairs -  that has no chance....

   - A Italian team that has already showed the world they can: 1. chose to race or not race on a given day 2. have the ability to quit a cycle - that has no chance and is a poodle....

   - And a team from the UK who could not get out of their way in the last cycle - that has no chance...

I for one think we only need these so called "super teams" lining up to sail the Gecco.... No Artemis, No Cammas, No Spanish teams, No teams from Asia.... That would be lame to have to watch.

Shame after supporting TNZL back to the 87 they could not come to the conclusion that a yacht for a yacht race might be a good idea.... Instead we get another bunch of supplied parts from one team,  supplied design packages, a boat that that is not transferable or relatable to the common sailor and 3 challengers groping around in the dark hoping they find the right solution to the gecco... Well 2  - We know ITA will have some good plans from TNZL.

Note - sarcasm... well part of it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ETNZ with their design head start will absolutely crush whoever the final surviving Challenger is. And the NZ public will love it, which is fine.

But it could be the start of a many-years long dynasty if other $B’s just move on to other pleasures instead. Boring for fans outside of NZ.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

ETNZ with their design head start will absolutely crush whoever the final surviving Challenger is. And the NZ public will love it, which is fine.

But it could be the start of a many-years long dynasty if other $B’s just move on to other pleasures instead. Boring for fans outside of NZ.

 

Does ETNZ really have a significant design advantage? Seems Team UK are the first to get anywhere near a test boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

ETNZ with their design head start will absolutely crush whoever the final surviving Challenger is. And the NZ public will love it, which is fine.

But it could be the start of a many-years long dynasty if other $B’s just move on to other pleasures instead. Boring for fans outside of NZ.

 

It might be boring if only the AC was simple as all that eh... are you not familiar with it?

Perhaps more challengers would have increased the interest and excitement, but rest assured nothing would have been more boring than a continued AC50 circle-jerk in Bermuda, and case in-point, it was interesting how it transpired for that not to be the case...

History has also shown that rich men come and go from AC - there is and has always been significant churn - why are you so desperate for ocification of your most recent billionaires of choice?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, mfluder said:

Does ETNZ really have a significant design advantage? Seems Team UK are the first to get anywhere near a test boat.

Didn't they conceive the rule? Don't the plucky ETNZ have their secret base and red paint?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Didn't they conceive the rule? Don't the plucky ETNZ have their secret base and red paint?

Yes they conceived the rule, with Luna Rossa. Does that give them an advantage? Maybe, maybe not. We will see in 2021. I remember when everyone thought ETNZ were disadvantaging themselves by staying in Auckland and choosing not to train with the Bermuda teams. That turned out to be wrong. Moral of the story, wait till it happens before dismissing it. IMO the only reason people are dismissing the boat before they see one, is because they're afraid the AC50's will be forgotten.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Yes they conceived the rule, with Luna Rossa. Does that give them an advantage? Maybe, maybe not. We will see in 2021. I remember when everyone thought ETNZ were disadvantaging themselves by staying in Auckland and choosing not to train with the Bermuda teams. That turned out to be wrong. Moral of the story, wait till it happens before dismissing it. IMO the only reason people are dismissing the boat before they see one, is because they're afraid the AC50's will be forgotten.

I think the AC50's will be forgotten because of the trouble that the wingsail causes. 

Lots of foiling cats are appearing now but they all have conventional soft rigs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, WetHog said:

[snip] a venue in a location far from where a majority of sponsors want to spend their money.  As a result only a select few challengers are willing to participate.  Its AC34 all over again.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

like the country that defender, the winner of the last Match, hails from?

STFU

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/12/2018 at 3:24 PM, mfluder said:

What a bollocks comparison! in 2013, there was always only one team who was going to challenge for the Cup. LR was late and bought a design package. They raced a 1st gen boat against a faster 2nd gen boat. Their goal was to learn for the future.

Artemis didn't have a hope in hell of beating LR let alone winning the AC. ETNZ was well ahead of everyone including Oracle.

Look at the 3 now. All big budget teams with established, and successful design teams, experienced and successful sailing teams, as well as a defender who boasts one of the strongest sailing teams in the world today. All sailing revolutionary new boats the world has never seen. You have the worlds best sailors coupled with the unknown factor of boats no one has seen before. AC34 pales in comparison to AC36.

  

why do you say that LR would've beaten artemis so handily?

i have the feeling that LR had kind of plateaued by ac34 and 35, they've has plenty of shots at the mug but never really gotten anywhere.

ETNZ defenitly had it from the start, but if artemis somehow made it through due to the flip or a miracle they also would've reamed oracle

although i don't think oracle would of minded so much compared to what happened hahaha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, mfluder said:

Its like beating your head against a brick wall trying to explain it to you. The difference between AC34 and AC36, is AC34 has 3 challengers but only one who was serious. The Kiwi's were always going to be the challenger, Artemis were rubbish, not because of the death of Bart, but because they had an incompetent design team. LR were there because of the Kiwi's but were never going to beat them.

AC35 had two challengers who were serious about winning, both of whom would've killed the defender. One who was there to help the defender retain, another who had no chance in hell (France) and BAR who were a long shot as they were a startup team, so really what we have now in terms of quality is better than both previous cycles. The numbers are irrelevant.

AC36 has 3 challengers and one defender who have the intent, the means and the ability to win the Cup.  They also have room and positions for startup teams. 

At this point for AC34 Artemis was perceived to have the intent, means and ability to win the Cup.  Brand new team with a deep pocket owner, Casper as Skipper and Juan K as designer.  They also were very competitive in the ACWS.  It wasn't till they got to SF and it became clear Juan K wasn't up to the challenge of designing a AC72, Casper was kicked to the curb and their after thought status was cemented.  American Magic is in a similar situation.  Brand new team with deep pocket backers, Casper as Skipper and Botin as their designer.  On paper they, just like Artemis, look like a legit new challenger but a lot can happen between now and the start of the PC to change that perception.

As for Luna Rosa, they haven't been a legit AC team since AC32.  Thats over 10 years ago and they were swept in the LVC Final.  So pump the breaks on declaring them a no doubt legit contender.  They have a lot to prove.

That leaves BAR.  That team has the intent, means, ability and one of the most talented and tenacious sailors in charge of the team.  They also have one AC cycle under their belt to fall back on in regards to learning from mistakes and applying them to their current attempt at the Cup.  Right now they have to be considered the lone legit challenger at this point and the favorite to meet ETNZ in the AC final.

So, yeah, none of the current teams fit the B team/Poodle role that LR and Soft Dick Japan filled in the last two Cup cycles but there is one clear legit challenger in BAR, one filling the Artemis role of unproven newcomer with American Magic and then there is Luna Rosa.  Established team that hasn't been a serious contender in over a decade.  This list of challengers when compared to AC34 and they look very similar.

WetHog  :ph34r:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, barfy said:

like the country that defender, the winner of the last Match, hails from?

STFU

Yes, and after the bull shit OR pulled its nice to see the Defender defend in their home waters.  But my point stands, New Zealand is a long way away from where the majority of potential AC sponsors want to spend their money so choosing a radical foiling mono-hull design for AC35 was not a good decision.  Choosing a modified TP52, or other current high performance mono-hull design, would have lowered the design/build price of the new boats and as a result made it more appealing for those sponsors to invest in multiple challengers for AC36.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, WetHog said:

At this point for AC34 Artemis was perceived to have the intent, means and ability to win the Cup.  Brand new team with a deep pocket owner, Casper as Skipper and Juan K as designer.  They also were very competitive in the ACWS.  It wasn't till they got to SF and it became clear Juan K wasn't up to the challenge of designing a AC72, Casper was kicked to the curb and their after thought status was cemented.  American Magic is in a similar situation.  Brand new team with deep pocket backers, Casper as Skipper and Botin as their designer.  On paper they, just like Artemis, look like a legit new challenger but a lot can happen between now and the start of the PC to change that perception.

 As for Luna Rosa, they haven't been a legit AC team since AC32.  Thats over 10 years ago and they were swept in the LVC Final.  So pump the breaks on declaring them a no doubt legit contender.  They have a lot to prove.

 That leaves BAR.  That team has the intent, means, ability and one of the most talented and tenacious sailors in charge of the team.  They also have one AC cycle under their belt to fall back on in regards to learning from mistakes and applying them to their current attempt at the Cup.  Right now they have to be considered the lone legit challenger at this point and the favorite to meet ETNZ in the AC final.

So, yeah, none of the current teams fit the B team/Poodle role that LR and Soft Dick Japan filled in the last two Cup cycles but there is one clear legit challenger in BAR, one filling the Artemis role of unproven newcomer with American Magic and then there is Luna Rosa.  Established team that hasn't been a serious contender in over a decade.  This list of challengers when compared to AC34 and they look very similar.

WetHog  :ph34r:

STOP

this does not conform to the narrative though

luna rossa is butt buddies with ETNZ so we like them

they MUST be a serious contender for the cup

whats more, they WOULD OF DEFINITELY been soooooooo fast last cup magically if grr grr oracle grr didn't make the boats better after very basic and translatable R and D had been performed. grr, i hate those oracle guys, they make me angrrreeyyyy grr grr

and after stating that money doesn't equal speed (look at the last cup sillies!{ha, we showed those capitalist pigs}), we must now go back on our word and say that the brand new american team MUST be in the race to win

(it's also because we like them though, i love it when oracle is replaced, and i bet that these guys will do a better job of choosing people with the same nationality so we love them for that)

but team GBR didn't win like ETNZ did last time (and LR would've too) so they're SHIT

 

 

 

did i use the right satirical colour?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, mfluder said:

Yes they conceived the rule, with Luna Rossa. Does that give them an advantage? Maybe, maybe not. We will see in 2021. I remember when everyone thought ETNZ were disadvantaging themselves by staying in Auckland and choosing not to train with the Bermuda teams. That turned out to be wrong. Moral of the story, wait till it happens before dismissing it. IMO the only reason people are dismissing the boat before they see one, is because they're afraid the AC50's will be forgotten.

Ha, certainly not. The sooner the toy boats are forgotten, the better.

That doesn't mean that I like the current boat, but we'll see...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, WetHog said:

...........  But my point stands, New Zealand is a long way away from where the majority of potential AC sponsors want to spend their money so choosing a radical foiling mono-hull design for AC35 was not a good decision.  Choosing a modified TP52, or other current high performance mono-hull design, would have lowered the design/build price of the new boats and as a result made it more appealing for those sponsors to invest in multiple challengers for AC36.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Priorities mate....they need to be juggled anew each time

Yours ^ was clearly not considered preeminent - by those who earned the right to choose :(

or there was a screw-up.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, inebriated said:

STOP

this does not conform to the narrative though

luna rossa is butt buddies with ETNZ so we like them

they MUST be a serious contender for the cup

whats more, they WOULD OF DEFINITELY been soooooooo fast last cup magically if grr grr oracle grr didn't make the boats better after very basic and translatable R and D had been performed. grr, i hate those oracle guys, they make me angrrreeyyyy grr grr

and after stating that money doesn't equal speed (look at the last cup sillies!{ha, we showed those capitalist pigs}), we must now go back on our word and say that the brand new american team MUST be in the race to win

(it's also because we like them though, i love it when oracle is replaced, and i bet that these guys will do a better job of choosing people with the same nationality so we love them for that)

but team GBR didn't win like ETNZ did last time (and LR would've too) so they're SHIT

 

 

 

did i use the right satirical colour?

Go back to playing with your toys. The grown ups are talking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, WetHog said:

 But my point stands, New Zealand is a long way away from where the majority of potential AC sponsors want to spend their money...

All this does is demonstrate your small mindedness and lack of understanding of the bigger world that exists outside of your Trumpland.

Money knows no distance it can't travel, and neither does the content it seeks to acquire. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

All this does is demonstrate your...understanding of the bigger world that exists...

Well thanks.  I knew you would come around.  :lol:  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, rh2600 said:

All this does is demonstrate your small mindedness and lack of understanding of the bigger world that exists outside of your Trumpland.

Money knows no distance it can't travel, and neither does the content it seeks to acquire. 

Soggy_porkie also conveniently overlooks the fact that one of the biggest spenders in sports advertising and sponsorships in the world is happily spending in Auckland - footer-logo.png.bcd1b0e7a0e8697176a1d930256c8d38.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, WetHog said:

Well thanks.  I knew you would come around.  :lol:  

WetHog  :ph34r:

oh... dear me...

Hoggy... let's walk this through...the compromised sponsorship that you are referring to, this is in regards to sponsors providing money to teams in order to give them a budget to compete?

Just want to ensure I fully understand what you mean...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, WetHog said:

Yes, and after the bull shit OR pulled its nice to see the Defender defend in their home waters.  But my point stands, New Zealand is a long way away from where the majority of potential AC sponsors Billionaires want to spend their money so choosing a radical foiling mono-hull design for AC35 was not a good decision, because the billionaires know they can't beat the Kiwis if they can't buy them.  Choosing a modified TP52, or other current high performance mono-hull design, would have lowered the design/build price of the new boats and as a result made it more appealing for those sponsors to invest in multiple challengers for AC36.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Fixed:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, WetHog said:

Yes, and after the bull shit OR pulled its nice to see the Defender defend in their home waters.  But my point stands, New Zealand is a long way away from where the majority of potential AC sponsors want to spend their money so choosing a radical foiling mono-hull design for AC35 was not a good decision.  Choosing a modified TP52, or other current high performance mono-hull design, would have lowered the design/build price of the new boats and as a result made it more appealing for those sponsors to invest in multiple challengers for AC36.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

if the Match was degraded to suit travel plans no-one would be happy.

I do believe that free to air and Youtube? or some such broadcast in the global village makes location, other than being a sailing venue, unimportant. Bermuda was nice to sail in, irrespective of the home water issue. Having coverage limited to an app that 5000? folk downloaded was a poorly thought out marketing strategy, chronic short term corporate thinking. Get money for app now, screw all the other sponsors for future campaigns.

GD has stated that won't happen this time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Indio said:

 

Soggy_porkie also conveniently overlooks the fact that one of the biggest spenders in sports advertising and sponsorships in the world is happily spending in Auckland - footer-logo.png.bcd1b0e7a0e8697176a1d930256c8d38.png

Denying fact is what they do now, more openly than ever :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now