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Just now, mfluder said:

Yep, I was merely stating, that this is where I got the December 31st deadline date from. 

The protocol does state that, but can be amended if and when needed.

not getting at you mfluder. I too have fallen into the trap of 'trusting' a website only to see the NoR or SI's of an event are completely different

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51 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

That's excatly right. There is NO Point to extending it. At NZ Sources in that Article even mentioned it that they won't extend it.

I'm more concerned about that the Protocol stipulates that the ACWS Series Events to be Mandatory which means you have to have a Boat ready by the end of September 2019. That should be "amended" IMO. ETNZ, LR, INEOS and AM will have no problem with that. However any New Team that announces within the next 48 Hours will struggle unless they have a complete Design Team ready to work.

Again, you haven't been paying attention. The point is, there were 6 bases agreed to in the Auckland proposal, so there are up to 6 bases which have been planned for. Surely, if you can fill them, you would do that, regardless of how well those potential teams might fare in the competition. Thats the point.

They don't need a complete design team, if they purchase a design package from ETNZ. Those packages have been stipulated as a "Ready to sail package". Will they win?, possibly, possibly not, but being ready, may not be as big of a problem as you make it out to be. A lot of the components are OD anyway.

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8 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

At this Point NO TEAM has said that they will purchase a Design Package from ETNZ and certainly the rumored Dutch Team by Tienpont won't. The other Team who might have chosen a Design from ETNZ was Columbus 2021 but they're now out.

The teams who are entered don't need to buy a design package, so why would they say they are going to purchase one?

"The America's Cup champions. Emirates Team New Zealand have made entry easier by making a basic design package available to all teams, reducing the design risk for new teams"

Certainly makes it easier for late starters. We will soon see who may have purchased a design package when they announce. Because lets face it, you don't know.

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31 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

These so-called stragglers will never ever have a boat ready by the European Autumn next year.

And thats the bottom line because dg_sailingfan said so!

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1 hour ago, Stingray~ said:

What is the point of Challengers ever voting on Protocol changes when their votes mean absolutely nothing? It’s just a waste of time!

Allow me to introduce you to a little known concept called a Constitutional Monarchy. It appears to have been functioning reasonably well for quite a while in some parts of the world ;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Yes, they want these Teams just making up Numbers

Being a totally new class, the single boat campaigns - as these late arrivals are expected to be - could imo be quite competitive. I wouldn't underestimate the Dutch to come up with something very innovative. Speculation that the Mule, not Mini-Frack, inspired confidence in the concept is interesting. Mini Frack has always looked a bit Heath Robinson, I wonder how much really useful info Ben has been able to gain from it?

 

1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

so they can claim this has been a good Event in case something goes wrong.

This statement doesn't make much sense.  If "something goes wrong," participation numbers will have little to do with it. Perhaps define what "SGW" is? To me, SGW could be reliability issues with the Italian built foil control systems. Does the rule define how these should be installed, and to what standard with regards to salt water protection? Would a contentious install that failed have any redress?

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47 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

This statement doesn't make much sense. 

Of course it doesn't - it's classic A4E toxic brain farts

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4 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It seems logic that they will extend as much as possible the entry period in order to get more teams with low chance to win.

Well, if the F50's can claim National Teams when half the fleet is Aussies, ya know. Its about growing the sport:)

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3 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Yes, they want these Teams just making up Numbers so they can claim this has been a good Event in case something goes wrong.

Thats what Ellison claimed in Bermuda, thats why they downsized the boats from 62 feet to 50 feet. To get more teams. Turns out they got one fake team who was really just a front for a training buddy for the defender, the and the other with an eye to the future. 

In the end only one team can win. Thats sport. Ineos has a chance to win, Luna Rossa has a chance to win, American Magic has a chance to win, ETNZ has a chance to win. Why makes any other team any less competitive?

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9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

 

The only thing the Kiwi's claimed in Bermuda was their 3rd Americas Cup win.

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4 hours ago, Robsi524 said:

Yep, that’s the message. 

If the Prot includes a 30 day limit for how long the vetting process can take after a Challenge has been lodged, it may but I forget, well then that may explain the Dec 30 date seen on the web site.

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11 hours ago, mfluder said:

Thats what Ellison claimed in Bermuda, thats why they downsized the boats from 62 feet to 50 feet. To get more teams. Turns out they got one fake team who was really just a front for a training buddy for the defender, the and the other with an eye to the future. 

I still get a kick out of you ripping Ellison for simply coping what ETNZ did in AC34.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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11 hours ago, mfluder said:

Why makes any other team any less competitive?

Time. 

Time and Money are the two key depleting resources that you cannot make up for if you don't have them. And without making any assumptions about whether the Dutch or Chinese or other team can come up with the necessary money, we know for certain that they will have a lot less time. All the time that INEOS and NYYC have already been in the water, that ENTZ has been working the simulator, that LR has been doing whatever they've been doing, all that time has immense value to the competitiveness of a team. New teams cannot get that time back.

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10 minutes ago, WetHog said:

I still get a kick out of you ripping Ellison for simply coping what ETNZ did in AC34.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I still get a kick out of the fact that you can't tell the difference between challenging and defending.

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12 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I totally agree with you here. Also, any Team who enters now will likely built only one boat and that's a Major Disadvantage. ETNZ, LR, AM and INEOS will all have two boats. They will certainly learn from any mistake they make with their 1st Boat hence their 2nd Boats to be launched in 2020 will be "SIGNIFICANTLY" faster compared to a Team who builts just one boat.

I agree, time is short for the new teams, but I also believe the number of boats they build is somewhat irrelevant. I base that only on what we saw during the last cycle. The Bermuda teams all built multiple boats, Oracle, Artemis, Softbank, BAR all had more than one boat (SBTJ was basically the second training boat for Oracle, and vice versa) and they ended up being slower than the Kiwi's who built only one boat. I believe the difference will be in simulation technology and data analysis. 

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32 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

What are you talking about? Everyone was allowed to built only one boat in Bermuda. Secondly, you can't base it on AC 35. You should base it on AC 34 and AC 32. In VLC the 2nd Boats of Alinghi, ETNZ, LR and BMWO were significantly faster than those of Mascalzone, Desafio Espanol, Areva Challenge, etc. +39, UITG and China Team who entered very late were totally off the pace as they only built one boat.

In AC 34 Luna Rossa purchased a Design Package from ETNZ and were well off the pace during the Round Robins and during the LVC Final cuz the New Zealanders had the 2nd Generation Boat compared to Luna Rossa's older Boat.

So saying it's irrelevant how many boats are being built is just being not honest.

Any Team who enters now is severly disadvantaged and has to realize that they can't win the Competition and will very likely fall at the RR Stage of the PRADA CUP. The only reason these Teams might enter is that they're building for the Future.

"What are you talking about? Everyone was allowed to built only one  boat AC50 in Bermuda" Except Oracle who built two including SBTJ. And the number of test boats built by some of the Bermuda teams was staggering! All ending in defeat to a team who used one boat on loan (which was an old AC45 that many on here almost laughed at because it was so old) and one test boat that was vastly different compared to their AC50.

AC32 and 34 have no bearing on what is happening now. Two boats was a necessity back then, as it was the only way to gather data and analyse it in different conditions. Now, they don't even have to build a boat to gather data and analyse, as long as they invest in a good simulation system.

Okay, maybe not irrelevant, but certainly not as necessary and important as it once was.

We will soon see who is disadvantaged and who is not. I remember seeing many posts on here claiming ETNZ would be severely disadvantaged by staying in Auckland as long as they did, and not training with the Bermuda teams. "There is no way they can match, or make up for the kind of training the other teams are getting in Bermuda" "This will put them well behind the Bermuda teams" "Pete Burling needs all the training he can get because Jimmy will kill him in the start box" lol Moral of the story, don't count your chickens before they hatch.

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In AC34 the AC72s were a new concept and ETNZ built surrogate boats as well as two AC72s.

In AC35 the AC50s were a derivative of the AC72s and ETNZ did well with simulation of refinements to a known concept.

In AC36 we once again have a new concept. Whether simulation is all you need, time will tell.So far ETNZ seems to be in a minority of one in believing that to be so. Maybe they are right but it is far too soon to say.

 

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

# 1 Oracle did not built the SBTJ Boat....that's plain and simple wrong. Also, you have no evidence to back this up. Just because SBTJ purchased a Design Package from OTUSA doesn't mean the Americans built the Japanese Boat. The Control Systems for the Wing, the Foils, etc. was done by Holroyd & the Designers & Engineers from SBTJ.

# 2 Thank God you're not the CEO of AmericanMagic & INEOS cuz you almost certainly would run the Team into Ground. Terry Hutchinson as well as Sir Ben said numerous times that if you want a serious shot at winning AC 36 ya need to built two boats and the reason behind it is that you in all likelyhood won't get the Design completely right with the 1st Boat cuz the AC 75 Concept is completely new. You built a 2nd one to learn from the potential mistakes you make with the first. So, I say if you want to win AC 36, a Two-Boat Programm is essential.

# 3 Time On the Water...I can guarantee you one thing: Any Team that enters now will almost certainly 100% have less time on the water compared to the so-called 4 "Superteams" and we saw during AC 34 how critical Time on the Water can be. Artemis for example after their tragic capsize with Boat 1 had only 10-12 Days of Training with their 2nd Boat. If they would have had the same amount on the water compared to the Italians they would in all likelyhood beaten them. OTUSA suffered a Major Setback by capsizing Boat 1 during Training in Oct. 2012 that almost cost them the Cup. According to Simmer & Coutts it took the Team almost 3 1/2 months to rebuilt Boat 1. In the meantime ETNZ was Training in Auckland on the water with LR. So, I call what AM & INEOS are doing being smart, planning for every eventualities that might pop up during the next two years or so by building two boats.

Finally as I said this AC 75 Concept is completely new. It's like going back to the drawing board before AC 34 when the new AC 72 Concept came along. Spithill said similar things.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/68769890/jimmy-spithill-to-dean-barker-lets-get-grant-dalton.

I'll just leave this here...

1432400286620.jpg

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5 hours ago, mfluder said:

I still get a kick out of the fact that you can't tell the difference between challenging and defending.

Got it.  Its ok for ETNZ to do because they were a Challenger at the time. 

At least now you admit what ETNZ did in AC34 is the same thing OR did in AC35.  Progress. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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3 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Got it.  Its ok for ETNZ to do because they were a Challenger at the time. 

At least now you admit what ETNZ did in AC34 is the same thing OR did in AC35.  Progress. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yep, we all know they did the same in AC34, the difference is...two challengers collaborated to win a "Challenge Trophy" Oracle did it to circumvent the two boat rule, and created a team who's sole intention was to assist the Defender in retaining. But who needs details right?

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2 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Yep, we all know they did the same in AC34, the difference is...two challengers collaborated to win a "Challenge Trophy" Oracle did it to circumvent the two boat rule, and created a team who's sole intention was to assist the Defender in retaining. But who needs details right?

Now you consider what took place during AC34 as collaboration.  Sure.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Just now, WetHog said:

Now you consider what took place during AC34 as collaboration.  Sure.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Thats exactly what it is isn't it? a partnership. LR bought a design package from them, Components of LR's AC72 were built at Cooksons, they were both based in Auckland, and both trained in Auckland. What else would you call it?

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

You are really hilarious! You're also assuming waaay too much because of one little Video Clip. You still haven't backed up your claim that the OTUSA Boatbuilder, Engineers and Designern built the SBTJ Boat. Show me a Link to back this up, otherwise withdraw your claim. OTUSA did not built the SBTJ Boat - Period. Pretty outragerous to even make this claim.

The worst thing though is: No one can have an honest and thoughtful conversation with you because you twisting and turning everything around to your benefit.

By the way... Here ya go mate...enjoy!

https://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Americas-Cup--First-AC50-arrives-in-Bermuda--practice-racing-starts/-148891?source=google.co.nz

"Softbank Team Japan's AC50 will also be built by Core Builders Composites with the bow section required to be built in Japan"

http://bernews.com/2016/08/dd-softbank-team-japan-begins-construction-ac50-class-yacht/

"The Japanese made bow-sections are being constructed in Japan to fulfill a requirement that each team must have a portion of their hull built in their home nation.

In addition, the majority of the carbon fibre materials used for the bow-sections come from Japanese based Toray Industries.

Once finished, they will be shipped on Thursday, August 11th to Core Builders in New Zealand to be mated to the rest of the hull already under development"

Its called Research...try it some time:)

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43 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Yep, we all know they did the same in AC34, the difference is...two challengers collaborated to win a "Challenge Trophy" Oracle did it to circumvent the two boat rule, and created a team who's sole intention was to assist the Defender in retaining. But who needs details right?

Will you ever quit with your bullshit? Geezus, mate!

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3 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Will you ever quit with your bullshit? Geezus, mate!

Hey, I'm just responding to others, answering their questions. But you know how it goes, ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.   

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

Hey, I'm just responding to others, answering their questions. But you know how it goes, ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.   

I sort of agree with Stingray here. Reading through all this shit is so tiresome.

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9 minutes ago, mrdobalina said:

I sort of agree with Stingray here. Reading through all this shit is so tiresome.

I’ll throw a plus one in there. 

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29 minutes ago, mrdobalina said:

I sort of agree with Stingray here. Reading through all this shit is so tiresome.

Iggy works on stingray; cut and paste or inane comments

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43 minutes ago, mrdobalina said:

I sort of agree with Stingray here. Reading through all this shit is so tiresome.

I agree, I won't bring up AC34. So if it comes up...ya know, don't shoot the messenger and all that.

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7 hours ago, WetHog said:

Its ok for ETNZ to do because they were a Challenger at the time. 

Yes actually.

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Joking aside, they're probably trying to flush their part time social media girl out of some bar in the viaduct so she can update their FB and web page.

Dalton's text:   "Can you come and do that thing on the computer ... you know I'm not good with the inter-web"

Sharleen:   " Hang on Dalts I think this guy's gonna spring for a bottle of Moet ... was it two or three more challengers? ... "

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You heard it here first

 
 

America_s_Cup_2018_RNZYS_1280x899_-580-4

8 NEW NOTICES OF CHALLENGE RECEIVED AT CLOSE OF 36TH AMERICA'S CUP ENTRY PERIOD

The period for late entries for the 36th America’s Cup presented by Prada officially closed today, the 30th November 2018.

The Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron and Emirates Team New Zealand can confirm there have been an additional 8 Notices of Challenge received by the 5pm (NZT) deadline. 

According to the supporting entry documents, only one of these entries is capable of immediate acceptance while the remaining seven notices of challenge carry conditions. Some of the entries are likely to be invalid, something which will be determined through a vetting process which will begin immediately. 

“We are really encouraged by the level of interest that has been shown from around the world by the number of notices of challenge that have been lodged by today’s deadline,” said Emirates Team New Zealand CEO Grant Dalton. 

“It has been a long time coming, but worthwhile to give potential teams every opportunity to enter what will be a huge global event for New Zealand. However, we must remain cautious and not jump to conclusions on the final number of teams. It is only when the acceptance process has been completed that we will know how many will compete in the Prada Cup alongside Luna Rossa, American Magic & INEOS Team UK.”

Conditions of some of the challenges will require changes to the Protocol, which is therefore dependent on agreement with the Challenger of Record before each new challenger’s participation can be confirmed. 

“We understand there will be questions around what a conditional challenge is,” explained Dalton. 

“To give some context, an example is where we might have a challenge that is conditional on there being an America’s Cup World Series event in that specific challenger’s country. This, obviously, is something that cannot be determined today and also needs agreement with the Challenger of Record.” 

The process of assessing the entries and conditions of the 8 new challengers will begin immediately with the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron and Emirates Team New Zealand. Emirates Team New Zealand is acutely conscious of the need to advise Auckland Council and the Government on the base infrastructure footprint requirement which has an impact on overall costs. 

The Government and Council have been advised that a maximum of five challengers can be accommodated on Wynyard Point with three double bases and two singles. Should less than three of the late challenges be accepted, the Government and Council will then have the option of not proceeding with the Hobson Wharf extension for the 36th America’s Cup, which would result in considerable cost savings. 

“The planning of the America’s Cup venue and infrastructure has been a detailed but fluid process and Emirates Team New Zealand and America’s Cup Event Ltd have been highly conscious of infrastructure build costs while wanting to retain the ability to accommodate as many challengers as necessary by today’s deadline,” said Dalton. “We want to act quickly with the Challenger of Record so we can definitively inform Council and Government on the total number of teams we need to accommodate or whether it is sensible not to extend Hobson Wharf in this current edition of the America’s Cup, which could save a significant amount of infrastructure expense.”

“We are really proud to have this many teams submit entries for the 36thAmerica’s Cup event which is a true reflection on the belief and excitement of the new AC75 boat concept and the ideal host venue for racing in 2021 in Auckland, New Zealand,” concluded Dalton. 

The official announcements of the new accepted challengers will be made at a later date after the completion of the conditional entries process and in accordance with each team’s preference on the timings of their respective public announcements.
 
 
 

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Fun fact:

16 teams challenged ifor AC30 Auckland.

We ended up with 11.

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15 minutes ago, NZL4EVER said:

Fun fact:

16 teams challenged ifor AC30 Auckland.

We ended up with 11.

So does that mean there will be six in this one? A lot better than the 3 that are there now.

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9 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

So does that mean there will be six in this one? A lot better than the 3 that are there now.

Hate to waste space, but yes...maybe more than 3 challs

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1 hour ago, pusslicker said:

So does that mean there will be six in this one? A lot better than the 3 that are there now.

It must do, because the future is always exactly like the past.

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So basically they held a big party in Monaco and announced nothing of significance. Nice work if you can get it.

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17 hours ago, mfluder said:

"What are you talking about? Everyone was allowed to built only one  boat AC50 in Bermuda" Except Oracle who built two including SBTJ. And the number of test boats built by some of the Bermuda teams was staggering! All ending in defeat to a team who used one boat on loan (which was an old AC45 that many on here almost laughed at because it was so old) and one test boat that was vastly different compared to their AC50.

AC32 and 34 have no bearing on what is happening now. Two boats was a necessity back then, as it was the only way to gather data and analyse it in different conditions. Now, they don't even have to build a boat to gather data and analyse, as long as they invest in a good simulation system.

Okay, maybe not irrelevant, but certainly not as necessary and important as it once was.

We will soon see who is disadvantaged and who is not. I remember seeing many posts on here claiming ETNZ would be severely disadvantaged by staying in Auckland as long as they did, and not training with the Bermuda teams. "There is no way they can match, or make up for the kind of training the other teams are getting in Bermuda" "This will put them well behind the Bermuda teams" "Pete Burling needs all the training he can get because Jimmy will kill him in the start box" lol Moral of the story, don't count your chickens before they hatch.

How many boats did artemis build new for ac35? 

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16 hours ago, mfluder said:

Thats exactly what it is isn't it? a partnership. LR bought a design package from them, Components of LR's AC72 were built at Cooksons, they were both based in Auckland, and both trained in Auckland. What else would you call it?

Collaboration usually takes place between two equal, or close to equal, participants.  LR for AC34 was not a legit challenge, they were not ETNZ's equal.  Not even close.  They were ETNZ's B team and there is no refuting that.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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42 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Collaboration usually takes place between two equal, or close to equal, participants.  LR for AC34 was not a legit challenge, they were not ETNZ's equal.  Not even close.  They were ETNZ's B team and there is no refuting that.

WetHog  :ph34r:

For the record...it wasn't me that brought up AC34, okay guys!

They were the only "Equal" ETNZ had. They might not have been equal or legitimate to you, but they were the only other legitimate team in San Francisco apart from the Defender...huge failure on Oracles part. Legitimate is entered and fulfilling all obligations as a challenger, which is exactly what LR did.

So by your logic that makes Softbank illegitimate in Bermuda too right? Because many on here would refute that.

 

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Rather speculate on who the myriad of conditional and one legit challengers are than fuss about AC34/35 we can save that for duller days :)

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17 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

D00A8629-E138-4391-81BA-C89CD6112B43.thumb.png.83810eff67b96fb07b3171127bc02762.png

For some reason  I see this sitting on the head of the alien leader in cheesy science fiction movie from the 50s.

 

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Thanks, life is too short to watch that, Jack Griffin's summary will do for me.

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6 hours ago, agk470 said:

How many boats did artemis build new for ac35? 

They had their foiling AC45 test boat that they were testing in San Fran immediately after AC34, they had two Test Boats and an AC50.

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Can you give me a Link to Griffin's Summary mate ;)

A part of his letter here, I encourage you to subscribe at his letter, you will avoid some of the stupidnarrowminded fan bullshit we have to go through here.

 
 
 
 
 

 

Prada Cup Launch Event at Yacht Club de Monaco

Challenger of Record Luna Rossa presented the new trophy, the Prada Cup, at a stylish event with a slick hologram show. The first America's Cup World Series regatta will be held in Cagliari, Sardinia in October 2019. Specific dates were not given. No word about dates or locations of the other ACWS event, although Laurent Esquier, CEO of COR36, has said previously that two events will be held in Italy in 2019.

No new challengers were announced at the event, but rumors continue to fly that there will be one or more additional teams. INEOS Team UK Sailing Team Manager Jono Macbeth said in this interview (click) that there will be "four or five" AC75's on the water at the first AC World Series. The late entry period closes in just a few hours, so perhaps we'll have some news soon.

 


Hostess Charlie Webster and Luna Rossa's Max Sirena interviewed Jimmy Spithill and Nico Brezzi from Cagliari with Jimmy and Nico "on stage" as live holograms. Very cool. Click here to see a short clip of the interview.

 


Although this was naturally a "challenger-centric" event, Peter Burling attended representing Emirates Team New Zealand, and I was lucky enough to be seated next to him at dinner. He was fresh from his fourth place in the A-Class worlds, where Glenn Ashby took hit 10th (!) A-Class world championship and teammate Blair Tuke got third.

bf65373c5b4a4aa1628cf310f6396b76.jpg?r=1669498659

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

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From reading the protocol it looks to me like any real challengers would have to have paid $1,000,000 yesterday to be valid. I find it hard to believe 8 of them did that!

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Looking at the Prada launch video

Around 21:00 they have the TV people on. Sounds like they want to build on AC 34/35 and be innovative with live/digital data/social media feeds.  Be interesting to see what they come up with. 

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So it looks like ETNZ are at least going to fill the 6 bases they proposed. How many more after that remains to be seen. Both local and Central government have to be happy with how its turned out. 

5 Challengers plus the Defender makes for a great event! At least 10 AC75's being built. Awesome!

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19 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Same amount of Challengers like in BDA.

At this stage, could be more once the vetting process is complete. Lets be honest, the whole intention of Softbank was to help Oracle retain. So at least we'll get teams who want to actually win. Whether it be this cycle or the next one.

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^^Haha sounds like you're hoping the AC doesn't pick up any more challengers than Bermuda, or SailGP? The only way they accept a challenge is if that challenger has met all of its obligations/ conditions of entry. The others obviously haven't which is why they're being vetted. Its like buying a house. You have to go through the process of ensuring all financial, and/or other obligations/ conditions are met before you get the keys. A conditional agreement is signed, the conditions are ticked off as they are met, and the deal goes unconditional. From there the deal is final.

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24 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

RNZYS said that 1 Challenger is capable of immediate Acceptance which assumes that this Challenge have already being vetted otherwise they wouldn't put out that Statement. Gladwell on the other hand says that all 8 incl. the one who can be accepted right away have to be vetted. Both can't be right here.

"Vetted" Is just another way of saying, all conditions of entry have been met. The deal is unconditional. 

"In their media release, Emirates Team New Zealand and Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron made mention that only one of the eight Challenges was unconditional"  therefor that deal is final.

What they're probably working through is what Gladwell also mentions later in the article, is that part of the deal may include an ACWS event, of which only one has been scheduled. They may be trying to schedule an ACWS event into the calendar, and have yet to come up with a final date. Or maybe working through final details as to if any protocol changes need to be made to accommodate the schedule delay Peter Montgomery mentions in his latest article with the foil arms of the AC75. 

But one of those Challengers has gone unconditional, which means those details are final. With any deal (especially a multi million dollar one like this one) everything has to be checked and double checked to ensure the I's have been dotted and the T's crossed by both parties to the deal. There are still formalities to finalise after a deal is unconditional.

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9 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Why would the so-called "Unconditional Challenger" who is capable of being immediatedly accepted want an ACWS Series Event, tell me? In my view that doesn't make sense!

What's your view on this?

What do you mean it doesn't make sense!? It makes perfect sense!! These are NATIONAL teams! Why does it not make sense to you that they might want to give their fans, their fellow countrymen and women a chance to watch their team race the best in the world? Its pretty straightforward really. Its the same reason SailGP is going to Australia, Britain, China, the US, France and Japan. So the fans can watch the racing.

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10 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I don't like it. It's too much carving from the Defender even more so when it comes to the "Conditional Challengers".

One Challenger shouldn't be able to amend the Protocol! The AC is elusive.

So you don't like SailGP either then? Because that's exactly what they're doing too..

Too much carving from the Defender? Its a World Series event, not the Challenger series! The Protocol states All Challengers must compete in the ACWS events and the Christmas Race in 2020. However, to allow Challengers an opportunity to showcase their team and their potential to their country to gain support is critical to both the event, to grow the viewing audience, as well as to each team individually get their fan base excited about the prospect of them competing. 

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Hey here's a conspiracy theory...glut of challengers requiring vetting postpones on water time for all, benefiting some challenger that knows it will get to the show.  Presumably busted foil arm  moots the needfor this to some extent. Unless of course challenger glut is scheme to distract from delays due to foul foil arm fail.

Can discuss these and other conspiracies during the lead up to AC37 ...

 

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41 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

This has nothing to do with SailGP.

I think that you don't understand what I am saying...

# 1 I CAN understand when a "Conditional Challenger" lodges in a Challenge on the Condition having a ACWS Event in their Country to participate in the AMERICA'S CUP/PRADA CUP.

# 2 I CAN'T understand when a "Unconditional Challenger" throwing in those demands.

You get it now!

P. S.

For a conditional Challenger it makes perfect sense throwing in those demands, for a unconditional Challenger it doesn't.

"

# 1 I CAN understand when a "Conditional Challenger" lodges in a Challenge on the Condition having a ACWS Event in their Country to participate in the AMERICA'S CUP/PRADA CUP.

# 2 I CAN'T understand when a "Unconditional Challenger" throwing in those demands"

Whats the difference? When you make the deal, you set conditions - like an ACWS event in your home country right? The Defending Yacht Club does the same thing right? They set conditions which you as a challenger must fulfill in order for your challenge to be accepted right? Okay, we've got that far, stay with me... Then you go and fulfill all your obligations, commitments, and conditions to the defender right? So all of your commitments, obligations, and conditions are met, you have no more conditions to fulfill, your entry is now unconditional. 

Your entry can then be accepted upon agreement of a mutually beneficial date in which an ACWS event is to held in your home port. This is yet to be confirmed. If or When it is confirmed, or not, and all parties are in agreement, your challenge is accepted, and you get the keys to your base. 

At the beginning of the Bermuda cycle, ETNZ had officially lodged a challenge, which had been accepted, and had made a deal with Harvey Schiller to host the Qualifying event. The event was agreed to, and signed off by Schiller. The event was then scrubbed by ACEA, and they incurred a financial penalty that they had to pay to ETNZ for breach of contract. 

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In the statement from ETNZ Dalts talks about not needing the Hobson wharf extension, doesn't mention anything about accommodating extra teams. Reading between the lines sounds like probably one additional challenger, maybe two.  

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This is many more late challenges than I'd expected.

Even if most don't actually work out any extra is very much welcome :)

 

I recall someone (Nav?) pointing out that the testing limits don't apply to teams that aren't entered yet -> some serious teams would wait till the very end of entries to get maximum benefit from not being entered yet, I wonder if any of these teams have been up to that kind of thing?

 

Happy to see that Hobson Wharf extension has indeed been up for cutting if Wynyard isn't full, previously has been suggested that LR would demand it regardless.

Hopefully enough of these new challenges work out that Hobson will indeed be justified.

 

I wonder what Protocol change conditions other than having an ACWS event might have been requested by these teams?

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1 minute ago, hoom said:

 

I wonder what Protocol change conditions other than having an ACWS event might have been requested by these teams?

Nationality rules?  Requirement to be in all the ACWS events?  

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7 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

I think Gladwell is absolutely wrong on the 1 Challenge that has been accepted by the RNZYS but not being vetted? Why would they accept a Challenge and not vet them? It doesn't make sense, does it?

Hang on.  Show me where Gladwell or the Squadron announced they had "accepted" one of the new challengers.

Gladwell reported that In their media release, Emirates Team New Zealand and Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron made mention that only one of the eight Challenges was "unconditional". 

I take that to mean that the challenge had no conditions attached and was therefore likely to be accepted, NOT that it had been accepted.  In other worlds the defenders still had to do due diligence on the challenger's stated bona fides.

Yes, the term "unconditional" has one context in a real estate or other business contract sense. It's not the only meaning.

 

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2 hours ago, hoom said:

I recall someone (Nav?) pointing out that the testing limits don't apply to teams that aren't entered yet -> some serious teams would wait till the very end of entries to get maximum benefit from not being entered yet, I wonder if any of these teams have been up to that kind of thing?

Exactly...

To say nothing of the testing situation, consider that all the teams that have announced their entry in AC36 have had all eyes on them - we see plenty of pics of what they are doing...

ETNZ proved the value of secrecy in AC35 (and the cost of others discovering your efforts early in AC34)...

So if you wanted to get a jump, have your money sorted and want stay secret, you have zero reason to announce your entry early, and you could even decide it's worth the $1m price tag to simply stay quiet and get on with whatever you are cooking up until the very last minute.

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26 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Here is what they said:

According to the supporting entry documents, only one of these entries is capable of immediate acceptance

Now, what does that mean? IMO I rate their chances being accepted to 98-100%. Then look what Gladwell wrote on Wednesday 48 Hours before the Nov 30th Deadline:

Sail-World NZ has signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement with an as yet unannounced Challenger (not the Tienpont-led team) a formal announcement was expected in Monaco on November 29, 2018, local time, however the team has advised that they will not be present in Monaco, but had filed their Challenge with Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron. They expect to make a statement announcing the Challenge in January 2019.

That Team was all but ready to announce formally in Monaco but pulled back cuz they weren't present there. Now they're going to announce in January.

If you put 2 and 2 together my cents are that this is the Team talked by RNZYS who's supporting Documents showed that they can be immediatedly accepted.

Conclusion: We have at least one more Official Challenger who will formally announce in January. From which Country they are is subject to intense speculation for the next 5-6 weeks or so.

Surprise! I KNOW what they said.

lots of confusing waffle from you to confirm what I said above. None of the new challengers has been accepted.

So:

1.  No-one mentioned acceptance as you wrongly reported.

2.  We should know more next year.

Cool your jets mate!

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11 hours ago, mfluder said:

They had their foiling AC45 test boat that they were testing in San Fran immediately after AC34, they had two Test Boats and an AC50.

The first foiling test boat was a converted ac45 strait board boat that was done during ac34. I believe they used it when the 72 was out of action.  The second (T1) was a converted AC45 strait board also used within a year of ac34. And the third was another converted ac45 T2 launches just before the team moved to Bermuda. So they retrobuilt 3 yes. And one AC50. Quite a bit of difference when you reuse something you already own. 

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3 hours ago, hoom said:

I recall someone (Nav?) pointing out that the testing limits don't apply to teams that aren't entered yet -> some serious teams would wait till the very end of entries to get maximum benefit from not being entered yet, I wonder if any of these teams have been up to that kind of thing?

Don't confuse me with nav please.

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2 hours ago, KiwiJoker said:

Gladwell reported that In their media release, Emirates Team New Zealand and Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron made mention that only one of the eight Challenges was "unconditional". 

I take that to mean that the challenge had no conditions attached and was therefore likely to be accepted, NOT that it had been accepted.

 

Hang on, you are playing with words.

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18 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Don't confuse me with nav please.

Apologies :o

I look forward to seeing if you were right.

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Just now, hoom said:

Apologies :o

I look forward to seeing if you were right.

I said it, that said,

- I don't know if nav said too

- I am not sure to have been right

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It's strange that 8 teams have paid $2m (I guess refundable if they fail vetting or don't agree on conditions) and none of them want to have their name in lights.

To me, any conditions should have been sorted before the late entry deadline. Making a conditional bid at the close of late entries is not a good look. How long can the potential challengers drag out the negotiations?

Anyway, it seems at least 1 will likely go ahead. The performance bond is due on 31 December, so perhaps that will be the cut-off date for conditional entries.

 

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10 hours ago, mfluder said:

What do you mean it doesn't make sense!? It makes perfect sense!! These are NATIONAL teams! Why does it not make sense to you that they might want to give their fans, their fellow countrymen and women a chance to watch their team race the best in the world? Its pretty straightforward really. Its the same reason SailGP is going to Australia, Britain, China, the US, France and Japan. So the fans can watch the racing. 

Really? The genie can't go back to the bottle (and that assuming that was a good thing) and we can't go back to the past century. These are NOT National teams. Not the existent challengers (just look at their key sailors and designers) and most likely not whichever one/s of the new challengers that make it through the vetting process. And despite the "National" paint, the SailGP teams are whatever RC/LE managed to put together under different flags with no different intentions than any other event organizer.

And no event organizers or teams care about the fans being able to "watch the racing". They care about having events in areas where their sponsors can benefit from specific exposure in their markets. Nationalistic shit is gone for good (yes, it was already gone when TNZ got American designers for the 1995 campaign or a good (great!) mix of mostly foreign designers Bermuda).

Now, the nationality requirements for the 36th will be mostly satisfied by residency, that is, putting a personal cost to the families of the sailors (at least it is a limited group of people. No relief though if you are part of it) so some may have the illusion of their flag having anything to do with the potential success of their favorite team.

To the big fans of the outdated nationalistic game, just follow the money. Where it comes from (and the associated costs, i.e. post-Bermuda) or where it goes to. It doesn't  look very national. Does it?.

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2 minutes ago, curiousinsider said:

Really? The genie can't go back to the bottle (and that assuming that was a good thing) and we can't go back to the past century. These are NOT National teams. Not the existent challengers (just look at their key sailors and designers) and most likely not whichever one/s of the new challengers that make it through the vetting process. And despite the "National" paint, the SailGP teams are whatever RC/LE managed to put together under different flags with no different intentions than any other event organizer.

And no event organizers or teams care about the fans being able to "watch the racing". They care about having events in areas where their sponsors can benefit from specific exposure in their markets. Nationalistic shit is gone for good (yes, it was already gone when TNZ got American designers for the 1995 campaign or a good (great!) mix of mostly foreign designers Bermuda).

Now, the nationality requirements for the 36th will be mostly satisfied by residency, that is, putting a personal cost to the families of the sailors (at least it is a limited group of people. No relief though if you are part of them) so some may have the illusion that their flag having anything to do with their potential success.

To the big fans of the outdated nationalistic game, just follow the money. Where it comes from (and the associated costs, i.e. post-Bermuda) or where it goes to. Hummm... it doesn't  look very national. Does it?.

The AC is a made for TV product now. What you see on TV is the perception the target audience gets, and what they see on TV are crews, not designers. The target audience is the Non-sailing audience who don't give a crap about a bunch of computer nerds sitting in an office somewhere using computer programs your average person couldn't even dream of using. What they care about is what is easiest to understand, which is what they see...sailing crews. Perception is reality. 

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18 minutes ago, mfluder said:

The AC is a made for TV product now. What you see on TV is the perception the target audience gets, and what they see on TV are crews, not designers. The target audience is the Non-sailing audience who don't give a crap about a bunch of computer nerds sitting in an office somewhere using computer programs your average person couldn't even dream of using. What they care about is what is easiest to understand, which is what they see...sailing crews. Perception is reality. 

Yep, your first sailor is an aussie, your designers french and brit. :P

And I forgot, your money coming from the Emirates.

Keep the bs coming.

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1 minute ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yep, your first sailor is an aussie and your designers french and brit. :P

Nope. All Kiwi's.

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2 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Nope. All Kiwi's.

Glenn Asby a Kiwi ? Guillaume Verdier a Kiwi ? can you stop making kiwis looking looking like the idiots they are not?

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Glenn Asby a Kiwi ? Guillaume Verdier a Kiwi ? can you stop making kiwis looking looking like the idiots they are not?

Yep, all Kiwi's by citizenship, or by willingness to embrace a Kiwi culture of innovation and forward thinking.

When you stop making stupid statements and asking stupid questions, making your self look like a stupid idiot, I'll quit giving you stupid responses. Ok?

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4 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Yep, all Kiwi's. When you stop making stupid statements and asking stupid questions, making your self look like a stupid idiot, I'll quit giving you stupid responses. Ok?

Geez, you are posting 50% of the posts here and 90% of the horseshit.

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I hate these scheming pricks.

I wanted to stay away, but the sight of more AC 50 action is enough to make me prostitute myself and watch.  As long as they don't make me subscribe to something I am not already subscribed to.

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4 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Geez, you are posting 50% of the posts here and 90% of the horseshit.

Thanks, I do try, but I'll never catch up to your total of 100% Horseshit posts. Keep chewing on those sour grapes.

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So:

Confirmed

1. TNZ

2. LR

3. Team UK (whatever they are called now!)

4. NYYC

 

The Eight additional:

1. Dutch Team

2. US team 2

3. US Team 3

4. Italy Team 2

5. China Team

6. ?

7. ?

8. ?

 

 

 

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