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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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Plenty of talk about regattas around NZ to give all of the country a taste of cup action.
I remember Wellington having a IACC regatta back in the late 90's something like that.
Dubai would be in the mix too obviously.

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3 hours ago, ezyb said:

100% agree.  Stingray threw out his typical "crooked" spin last night at the prospect of an Italian event, but the participation by the defender in the LVC with the ability to influence the outcome set a new low for defender shenanigans.  When Alinghi tried it almost everyone here rightfully decried it as outrageous, but when Oracle did the the same a select few here went awfully quiet and said it was ok because they only had one boat ...

What Alinghi proposed to do for AC33 went a lot farther than what Oracle did in AC35, in how deep into the CSS they would sail and in their ability to affect the standings.

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^ Looks like you never read Ernie's initial protocol for AC33. Alinghi wanted to sail with the Challs until deep into the CSS/LVC. It was at least as bad ar OR's.

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2 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

^ Looks like you never read Ernie's initial protocol for AC33. Alinghi wanted to sail with the Challs until deep into the CSS/LVC. It was at least as bad ar OR's.

Every bit, Rennie. And the worst bit is LE was Ernie's biggest critic.

Go figure.

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14 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Every bit, Rennie. And the worst bit is LE was Ernie's biggest critic.

Go figure.

I remember oh so well. Together with the choice of Bermuda a main reason of disappointment with OR's conduct of the last AC.
 

16 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

I'm not talking AC 33, I'm talking AC 32...prolly.

???
Prolly or in fact?
BTW, SR was talking about AC33, and the conversation as such was about the Def sailing with the Challs.

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58 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Oracle and Alinghi weren't the same. My Team only sailed in the "Acts" during the AC 32 Cup Cycle and they hardly influenced any Result there cuz at the end of the Acts the Points Alinghi garnered were taken away and all the 9 Challengers sailed in the actual LVC or Challenger Selection Series for themselves. I have no problem if ETNZ tries to do the same thing during the AC 36 Cup Cycle.

 

4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

What Alinghi proposed to do for AC33 went a lot farther than what Oracle did in AC35, in how deep into the CSS they would sail and in their ability to affect the standings.

 

42 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

^ Looks like you never read Ernie's initial protocol for AC33. Alinghi wanted to sail with the Challs until deep into the CSS/LVC. It was at least as bad ar OR's.

None of you are right. It is a fact that Alinghi proposed that they sail in the LV up to the semi finals. What most failed to realise is that the only influence they would have was against a bad boat. They could not knock out a top contender. For example, if they decided to and had the ability to do so, if they beat the top contender and lost to all the others, that would still have meant the contender had lost 1 race which would not have caused a contender to be eliminated. What Alinghi's presence might have done is influence whichever team took the last place in the semis if there were 2 or more boats in contention for that last place but unless the order of races fell in a particular order, Alinghi would not have known who they were helping or not helping.

Oracle's situation was, IMO, far worse than Alinghi. As we saw, Oracle carried a point forward into the match.

I know the above view is unfashionable and everybody who has expressed it has been hounded, but many seem to focus on that rather than what i believe is the real issue. The challengers and defender should not meet in their race boats until the match. 

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51 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

 

(Snip)

The challengers and defender should not meet in their race boats until the match. 

+1 No argument from me on your last statement.

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16 hours ago, jaysper said:

And make sure the boats are OD so nobody is forced to show their hand any earlier than they want.

OD boats are not necessary, a waste even.  It sounds like the boat rule will not be OD which means teams will build 2 boats.  So use boat 1 for whatever takes place in Italy and save  boat 2 for Auckland.  Problem solved.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

OD boats are not necessary, a waste even.  It sounds like the boat rule will not be OD which means teams will build 2 boats.  So use boat 1 for whatever takes place in Italy and save  boat 2 for Auckland.  Problem solved.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

But then the teams are forced to reveal their hand as the first boat will undoubtedly show the trajectory of design that the teams are on.

Would prefer that a fleet of AC class boats are manufactured to a "base design" that everyone is compelled to purchase. 

Then unlike the AC45, if you are a low budget team then you can use that boat (albeit modified) for the challenger series itself.

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I like the idea of a OD boat that is class legal, with a prize for first placed OD boat (I thought they should have done this for AC35 also). This would be a strong incentive to low budget teams to enter. They still get to race the big teams and there is something worthwhile up for grabs.

For the acts; teams could enter this or their boat 1, then no one is forced to reveal anything they don't wish to share, nor compelled to purchase an OD boat if they don't want to.

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I'm really looking forward to Amazon's pending arrival in NZ as a potential broadcast partner for AC36 to service all our AC fanatics around the world. Amazon have already stated their interest in the All Blacks and rugby as a content for their platform which is causing SKY to shit bricks given their unpopularity with their subscribers.Amazon would be the ideal vehicle to stream AC36 world-wide...

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3 hours ago, WetHog said:

OD boats are not necessary, a waste even.  It sounds like the boat rule will not be OD which means teams will build 2 boats.  So use boat 1 for whatever takes place in Italy and save  boat 2 for Auckland.  Problem solved.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

This is the format I have been favouring for a long time.

The rules shouldn't be OD, but there should be a compliant one design available for purchase for teams that want it.

One year out they race in boat one, then they all come back for the real event in boat two (with upgraded boat one as a backup). 

It's a tried a true format that has worked many times before.

Also get rid of the nonsensical limited sailing days and can't race against each other nonsense.

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34 minutes ago, mogs said:

I like the idea of a OD boat that is class legal, with a prize for first placed OD boat (I thought they should have done this for AC35 also). This would be a strong incentive to low budget teams to enter. They still get to race the big teams and there is something worthwhile up for grabs.

For the acts; teams could enter this or their boat 1, then no one is forced to reveal anything they don't wish to share, nor compelled to purchase an OD boat if they don't want to.

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

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46 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

Why do we need it?

There may be many reasons depending who you are but the biggest reason for a sideshow in Italy will be because of the deal done with P$B, who already announced that it was a condition he made in the 2015 exchange with GD.  Shrug, maybe it's all for the good, time will tell.

I wonder how much time and money teams will be spending in Italy, instead of in Auckland. If the posted rumors about a Prada Cup CSS in Italy are true, well it could be a lot.

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When talking about potential American challengers, how come no one mentions Jim Clark?  Being the owner and driving force behind such sailing programs as Hanuman and Comanche and having a net worth of 2 billion should make him a legit possibility to head a credible American challenger, IMO.  So long as he has the desire and will.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

I guess it depends on your point of view. Get rid of all the "side shows" and you send the cup back in time to being a rich man's, exclusive club. Teams like ETNZ only survive because of commercial sponsorship. If you reduce the exposure for the sponsors back to the LV and the cup itself, you severely limit the number of teams. You probably seriously harm ETNZ's ability to be competitive.

If we accept that in today's environment, giving sponsors exposure is actually desirable because we want teams to be able to get funding, the question is what do you need to do to justify a total of, say, $100m over 3 years. That is serious wedge. You can get serious exposure on an F1 car for that money or it will buy you 2.5 seasons of shirt sponsorship of one of the top 4 British Premiership football teams. The AC is different, appeals to different audiences, but a little racing in the LV followed by a chance of racing in the cup itself is not a return on $100m.

The question is how to get more exposure for the sponsors without screwing the whole event. I think the ACWS screwed it up and got worse the second time around. The initial racing back in AC34 was actually pretty good, attracted crowds and I suspect was good for sponsors. I think the "Acts" of AC32 also worked. What didn't work was over pandering to live TV which created a huge fail. The question should be about what is the right direction, because "nothing" is not the answer.

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

It does help with the marketability.

Ernie and Lazza are both total cunts that got a lot wrong but this isn't one of them IMO. 

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21 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

The difference between the Acts and the rest of the racing is that Alinghi didn't use the boat that was to later defend the Cup.

That isn't much of a difference. A two boat team will know precisely the speed differences between their two boats.

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3 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

That isn't much of a difference. A two boat team will know precisely the speed differences between their two boats.

We will have to agree to disagree. Events held before the cup itself in boats that by definition are an earlier generation doesn't tell you anything about how the performance of your new boat will compare with the new boats built by the others. As you could tell by Buttereworth's reaction during the first race of AC32, he clearly didn't have much of an idea of how the boats were going to compare.

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You are all wrong, I know best......

Repeat.....

 

I think it would probably be safer to go with GD's take on what is and is not required to gain sponsorship today over your simplistic view.

2 weeks....

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39 minutes ago, nav said:

I think it would probably be safer to go with GD's take on what is and is not required to gain sponsorship today over your simplistic view.

2 weeks....

I would bet you a decent sum of money that there will be more than just the LV and the cup matches. Since when does SA put a brake on speculation. You have done it for years :P

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13 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

I love that!
Actually, all we need is a YC that has a boat challenging another, foreign YC that has a boat too. Plus a couple of buoys, a committee boat with commitee and a strip of water... Voilà, an AC match!



Hmmmmmmm, apparently that's not what any Def and Chall want.

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1 hour ago, Modurn-ate said:

I seem to remember since the French started the elimination thing that the challenger series is run by the challengers.  I can not see any reason why the poodle defender has any say in trying on a LV series, in fact did the leaders of Emirates dump the LV merch as a gesture of good riddance, at the prize ceremony?

Prada elimination series in Italy, stops the enemy seeing too much of a potential challenger. reduced costs for teams sailing relatively locally and excellent sponsor timezone rewards.

If the eliminations were to be held completely in Italy then ETNZ would not be looking to accommodate 10 or more syndicate bases in Auckland. 

So.. probably not a real 'elimination' in Italy, although it may carry points forward to Auckland.

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

I love that!
Actually, all we need is a YC that has a boat challenging another, foreign YC that has a boat too. Plus a couple of buoys, a committee boat with commitee and a strip of water... Voilà, an AC match!



Hmmmmmmm, apparently that's not what any Def and Chall want.

Pity.

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Oracle - Larry checked off the box on his bucket list with DoGzilla.  My guess is that he moves onto the next challenge on his list.  OUT

BAR - I think Sir Ben wants to play but he won't find the funding to mount a viable campaign and will eventually drop rather than be a bottom feeder.  OUT

Groupama TF - They won't enter in a monohull.  OUT

SB TJ - ORTUSA2.0 has lost all funding and technical support.  OUT

Artemis - With Dalts throwing up his nationality wall (fence, caution tape or whatever), they won't be able to keep their sailing team together and still comply and compete.  OUT

Alinghi - I think Ernie's lost his taste for the Cup and remains on the beach.  OUT

Luna Rossa - Mr. Prada is going to outspend ETNZ 2-to-1 minimum in an effort to check the box on his bucket list.  And he'll remind Dalts at every turn that without his support, true or not, ETNZ would have never made it to Bermuda.  He'll also cover his condoms in sand right before he rams his cock up Dalts' ass every night...  IN

ETNZ - will spend the next 4 years sucking the dicks of anyone who will give them money, all the while, taking it up the ass from their CoR and sodomizing the NZ taxpayers... IN

They might get one or two other challengers, but none with any real chance to win.  

But as bad as it will get for ETNZ, that's nothing compared to the ass reaming the NZ taxpayers have coming to them...

From a number of teams perspective, it will look a lot like SF in AC 34 except the boats won't be nearly as fast or interesting...  Larry and Russell fucked up a ton in the AC, but they did make strides toward making it marketable.  Personally, I liked the short quick races as it was easy to take a quick break at work and catch a race, but at the same time I did hate the whole racing in a box concept.  Sponsors aren't going to pay big money for an event with little to no exposure.  We see it here in the US in stock car racing.  Sponsors want to be seen out front and in Victory Lane.  If the teams they are backing don't get the job done, they either walk away entirely or jump to a mega team with competitive entries.  If the leaks are to be believed, the steps ETNZ and Luna Rossa are taking leading up to AC 36 are moving the event back to where it was a decade ago.  Big budgets and only 1 or 2 big dog teams with a shot.  Today's economic environment isn't going to support that.   

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^ I can imagine Quantum Racing/De Vos making an entry if the boat isn't too complicated and the crew requirements reasonably sized.

Can imagine BAR making it too, somehow. Artemis must be a possibility since TT can afford to spend whatever he wants, probably with more ease than even P$B.

Very much doubt LE will challenge right after losing, it's never been done before.

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Very much doubt LE will challenge right after losing, it's never been done before.

What do you mean by that Stinger?

ETNZ challenged in 2007 after losing in 2003. 

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14 minutes ago, TimmyHate said:

What do you mean by that Stinger?

ETNZ challenged in 2007 after losing in 2003. 

Good catch, you're right.

But unlike with LE that NZ team was differently led and funded; post-2003 is when de Nora and GD took over.

Come to think of it, DC (but also under different people) came back after the '83 loss too, and with success.

Was thinking more along the lines of Lipton, EB, other $B's.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Good catch, you're right.

But unlike with LE that NZ team was differently led and funded; post-2003 is when de Nora and GD took over.

Come to think of it, DC (but also under different people) came back after the '83 loss too, and with success.

Was thinking more along the lines of Lipton, EB, other $B's.

From that point of view yes - the $B's don't tend to come right back (prob too busy having their "ego" massaged by some attractive member of their preferred sex) 

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11 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ I can imagine Quantum Racing/De Vos making an entry if the boat isn't too complicated and the crew requirements reasonably sized.

Can imagine BAR making it too, somehow. Artemis must be a possibility since TT can afford to spend whatever he wants, probably with more ease than even P$B.

Very much doubt LE will challenge right after losing, it's never been done before.

Never been done before? Ah...you sure about that? :D

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4 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Never been done before? Ah...you sure about that? :D

This was already covered...

Dennis Connor did it in '87, albeit with an entirely different team he and Malin Burnham built from the ground up under the burgee of SDYC.

Team New Zealand did it as well.  Same yacht club and mostly similar team to the group that lost it.

I sincerely doubt that Larry Ellison and Oracle will be back in the America's Cup.  As I stated above, LE checked the box on his bucket list and he'll move on to the next challenge he has set for himself there.

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16 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

DeVos/NY Yacht Club is possible.

BAR/Ben Ainslie will only challenge as "Brutal" says if he gets the funding and if he gets a real shot at winning it. If he gets that he's in...if he doesn't he's out.

DeVos will be separate from the NYYC challenge, which is as well funded as the MI one.  Three Italian challenges are spooling up.  Prediction from an angry Italian: "Look for a maximum 2 team-per-country rule" - call it an 'anti-mascalzone' rule.

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I'm guessing SBD meant more - ETNZ AC34->35, AR AC34->35, LR AC34->35*, etc....

Was a Trumpish 'fact' from SR

.......................................

^ call it an 'anti-mascalzone' rule.

Maybe that is what de Nora was getting at with the out of the blue 'Quality over quantity' comment!?

Don't get that and can't see Auckland/NZ being very sympathetic to that attitude - the more the merrier shirley;)

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17 hours ago, Brutal said:

where it was a decade ago.  Big budgets and only 1 or 2 big dog teams with a shot. 

The past three Cups all fit your 'where it was a decade ago'.

1) Valencia 2010: Two big budgets, 1 team with a shot (OR)

2) SF 2013: Three big budgets, 2 teams with a shot (OR, ETNZ)

3) BDA 2017: Five big budgets, 2 teams with a shot (AR, ETNZ)

 

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3 minutes ago, nav said:

I'm guessing SBD meant ETNZAC34->35, AR AC34->35, LR AC34/35*, etc....

Was a 'Trumpish fact' from SR

Stinger runs on the same fuel as the Donald: Alternative Facts

"But I meant back in the old days...um...Lipton..."

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On 9/18/2017 at 3:31 AM, WetHog said:

When talking about potential American challengers, how come no one mentions Jim Clark?  Being the owner and driving force behind such sailing programs as Hanuman and Comanche and having a net worth of 2 billion should make him a legit possibility to head a credible American challenger, IMO.  So long as he has the desire and will.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Comanche sold, Clark out of sailing.  

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37 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

DeVos will be separate from the NYYC challenge, which is as well funded as the MI one.

Who or what is MI?

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9 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

The Michigan challenge doesn't have the money so stop talking about nonsense.

You have been wrong in every post you have dumped here...

The DeVos family live in MI, thier company is based in MI and last year had a revenue of $8B....oh and among thier many boats is an 86' maxi monohull..

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16 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

In a new class many 'experts' including GD expected that AC35 Bermuda would be a rout by somebody but I think it was tighter than most expected; AR and OR were right there with ETNZ, maybe disadvantaged only in the sweet spot of wind range that ETNZ did a better job of gambling on; which is exactly what GV summarized it as.

I hope this next boat can come as close to providing competition as tight. Allowable by the Prot, continuous improvements would help achieve it.

 

Spin-bot in an 'I love to re-write history to suit myself and will (mis)quote anything to support my many fantasies' surprise

 

18 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I wanted to keep pressing the tech edge with foiling multi's, so I'm disappointed. But even if it was a big $ell-out by GD to P$B I am open-minded and actually guardedly optimistic about the new boat GV is designing and, as importantly, the coming Protocol.

I've also come around to thinking that even 4 good quality teams would be plenty fun to watch. News, promotion and current info on teams is so readily available nowadays that the 6 in Bermuda was almost overkill, for close-followers.

 

:lol: You were absent for most of the build-up to AC35, so obviously didn't notice that there was NOTHING coming out for most of the OTUSA controlled cycle and what there was later was 99% PR polished pap

All hail RG for at least trying

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On 9/18/2017 at 2:32 AM, Indio said:

I'm really looking forward to Amazon's pending arrival in NZ as a potential broadcast partner for AC36 to service all our AC fanatics around the world. Amazon have already stated their interest in the All Blacks and rugby as a content for their platform which is causing SKY to shit bricks given their unpopularity with their subscribers.Amazon would be the ideal vehicle to stream AC36 world-wide...

Wait, you mean Amazon Prime where The Grand tour ply their trade.... couldn't be a better place apart from live tv on prime time, although that will never happen apart from in NZ.

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BAR are in, I remember Ba saying funding was in place for the next cup, besides you don'y build infrastructure in Portsmouth like they did for one shot. 

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20 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

Where's the story on this? 

 

Yeah. That was one expensive quickie ...

 

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

  Three Italian challenges are spooling up.  Prediction from an angry Italian: "Look for a maximum 2 team-per-country rule" - call it an 'anti-mascalzone' rule.

 

As usual, no money available from Costa Smeralda. Only WAG would be Bertelli goes all-in for his last Cup and finances a sort of SBTJ. He also considers Onorato a disgrace since his AC34 role as pseudo-CoR. No money on that side either, plus Onorato's got to be blacklisted by the Italian yachting community after his written antics on being disqualified at the J70 Worlds, as Clean should know

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2 hours ago, nav said:

 

Spin-bot in an 'I love to re-write history to suit myself and will (mis)quote anything to support my many fantasies' surprise

 

 

:lol: You were absent for most of the build-up to AC35, so obviously didn't notice that there was NOTHING coming out for most of the OTUSA controlled cycle and what there was later was 99% PR polished pap

All hail RG for at least trying

Verdier is among those who have spoken about ETNZ being the faster boat in that sweet spot wind range. 

...

Was referring to info from the teams themselves. Lots and lots of videos in this cycle, like what has been the trend over time in other sports too. I get that NZ would prefer more teams but as a fan I thought 6 was plenty.

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5 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Comanche sold, Clark out of sailing.  

Well that sucks.  A Jim Clark financed, and Ken Read skippered, challenge is the only hope I had for a credible American entry into AC36.

2 hours ago, GauchoGreg said:

Where's the story on this? 

Exactly.  One of the bad ass boats ripping up the ocean over the last 3-4 years has been sold and the owner who financed its birth not only sold Comanche but, since he is out of sailing, has sold his J-Class Endeavour II replica Hanuman and no news on SA or any other sailing rag.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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21 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Well that sucks.  A Jim Clark financed, and Ken Read skippered, challenge is the only hope I had for a credible American entry into AC36.

Exactly.  One of the bad ass boats ripping up the ocean over the last 3-4 years has been sold and the owner who financed its birth not only sold Comanche but, since he is out of sailing, has sold his J-Class Endeavour II replica Hanuman and no news on SA or any other sailing rag.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I'm sure it is on the Front Page.  Where is the Front Page, again?

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1 minute ago, GauchoGreg said:

I'm sure it is on the Front Page.  Where is the Front Page, again?

Indeed.  There is talk in the StoH thread in Ocean Anarchy about Comanche being chartered, but nothing else I can find.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Americans having 3 Challengers like prolly Clean claims is blatant wrong.

And you know this because...?

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

Well that sucks.  A Jim Clark financed, and Ken Read skippered, challenge is the only hope I had for a credible American entry into AC36.

Exactly.  One of the bad ass boats ripping up the ocean over the last 3-4 years has been sold and the owner who financed its birth not only sold Comanche but, since he is out of sailing, has sold his J-Class Endeavour II replica Hanuman and no news on SA or any other sailing rag.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I thought he had only chartered the big Indian to Croaky, not sold it. 

That aside, why do you write off Devoss for a credible challenge, but think Clark would do better. That doesn’t make any sense. 

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2 hours ago, Monkey said:

I thought he had only chartered the big Indian to Croaky, not sold it. 

That aside, why do you write off Devoss for a credible challenge, but think Clark would do better. That doesn’t make any sense. 

Well my fondness for Clark is more because he hired Ken Read and they built a pretty good program in Comanche.  I don't know much about the DeVos family accept they have had success in the TP52 Super Series.  Having said that, the Orlando Magic has been a joke of a franchise for some time now.  If they can't build a winning NBA team in a tax haven like Orlando then I don't have much faith they can step up to the big time sailing wise and win the Cup for the USA.  Love to be proven wrong though.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, WetHog said:

Well my fondness for Clark is more because he hired Ken Read and they built a pretty good program in Comanche.  I don't know much about the DeVos family accept they have had success in the TP52 Super Series.  Having said that, the Orlando Magic has been a joke of a franchise for some time now.  If they can't build a winning NBA team in a tax haven like Orlando then I don't have much faith they can step up to the big time sailing wise and win the Cup for the USA.  Love to be proven wrong though.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Dig a bit deeper beyond the TP52 and you’ll see his passion for the sport with his MANY Windquest boats. Many were in the standard rich guy level of attainment, and more importantly, one design.  He didn’t just fund great big yachts then sit on shore while they went sailing. 

NBA teams are a joke. Only a few owners are passionate about the sport. Most are just in it to make $$$. 

I think Clark would only fund a team if he was pretty sure they’d win. Devoss would probably fund a team just because he wants to try to win. 

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4 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

And you know this because...?

Sssshhhh! Otherwise she will threaten to storm out of this forum and never come back.

We don't want that because it junks up the forum with a bunch of threads.

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"The best-laid plans of mice and men..."

Three American challengers?  I have my doubts about even a single challenger.

The AC is and has always been a rich man's game.  All the dreams that this niche event in a niche sport would ever have any sort of wider appeal and commercial sustainability has been pure fantasy.

Even if the potential sponsor pool wasn't already limited by its very nature, the wider sports world is seeing declining ratings, and the popular sports are having difficultly finding sponsorship to reach much larger audiences with better ROI.

That leaves the AC reliant on the whims of a rich guy wanting to scratch an itch, or settle a grudge.  At that level, money is never the issue, it's about keeping score and bragging rights.

DC was fortunate to ride the wave of history and sentiment that allowed him to do what he did, and carry it forward for a few years,  but that was a different sports world in a different time.

LE is driven by being the kind who likes to stir the pot, but he already got to stick it to both EB and ETNZ, so what's left to do?  Dunzo.

NZ can appreciate the AC, and Bertelli is still trying to scratch his itch.  Good for them, and I hope they're successful in restoring some sense of sanity and dignity to the event.

But I'd be surprised if anyone in the U.S. still gives enough of a shit.  But those MLM guys are nothing if not very pushy.  We'll see.

And just for entertainment, let's just say the Amway Challenge materializes, is successful, and takes the Cup.

Are the Great Lakes an "arm of the sea?" Does anyone want to open that can of worms again, LOL?

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On 19/09/2017 at 7:48 AM, TimmyHate said:

What do you mean by that Stinger?

ETNZ challenged in 2007 after losing in 2003. 

And Dennis in 87 and Alan Bond for most of the 70's and 80's before he won it.

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1 hour ago, Alinghi4ever said:

How about using your brain/head Mr. WetHog? Ken Read has already done two Cups and two Volvos. The guy is 56 years old. The AC has become a young man's Game these Days. While the Foiling Monos will be somewhat slower than the Cats we had in AC 34 & 35 they will still be too fast for a 56-year old guy to handle it at the Helm IMO? The only role I can see Ken Read having is potentially CEO like Russell did in AC 34. And for my liking he's much better doing TV Commentary than stepping onto a Sailboat himself these Days.

I brought up Read because he has extensive AC experience, built and managed competitive/successful big boat campaigns in two Puma VOR's and Comanche and he is a very charismatic figure so he should be able to drum up sponsors and keep them happy.  Being President of North Sails doesn't hurt either.  Also, because he is 1 year older than Coutts, I did not bring up Read because I expected him to be on the boat.

Stop trying to read other peoples minds because you suck at it.  And, to you and only you, its Sir WetHog.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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I don't agree with Gladwell's assertion that a foiling mono would have a fixed ballasted keel.  If the boat is to foil in light air it will have either a canting keel which would spoil the boats ability to tack and be a drag in light air or no keel at all.

I think that a foiling mono should have no external ballast to minimise drag and improve performance in light air.  With windward and leeward foils the boat would need to be sailed flat so that external ballast does not offer any advantage over internal ballast for righting moment.. Capsize risk of the pitch pole type would be reduced but there would be increased risk of the conventional capsize which calls for a highly skilled crew.

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49 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

I don't agree with Gladwell's assertion that a foiling mono would have a fixed ballasted keel.  If the boat is to foil in light air it will have either a canting keel which would spoil the boats ability to tack and be a drag in light air or no keel at all.

I think that a foiling mono should have no external ballast to minimise drag and improve performance in light air.  With windward and leeward foils the boat would need to be sailed flat so that external ballast does not offer any advantage over internal ballast for righting moment.. Capsize risk of the pitch pole type would be reduced but there would be increased risk of the conventional capsize which calls for a highly skilled crew.

Sounds like it will be just like the kind of boat regular sailors can relate to. [lol]

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14 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Stingers,

What do you think? If British billionaire Tony Langley is IN does that mean Land Rover BAR (Ben Ainslie) is OUT? I find that very odd not combining everything under one sole British Banner Challenger.

In his latest webcast, the one RG is referring to, TE did suggest the possibility of a Langley/BAR cooperative Challenge.

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16 hours ago, CheekyMonkey said:

Are the Great Lakes an "arm of the sea?" Does anyone want to open that can of worms again, LOL?

I thought the NYSC ruled that the Great Lakes did indeed qualify as an "arm of the sea" when Buddy Melges brought his Heart of America Challenge to Fremantle in 1987 under the burgee of the Chicago Yacht Club...

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6 hours ago, WetHog said:

I brought up Read because he has extensive AC experience, built and managed competitive/successful big boat campaigns in two Puma VOR's and Comanche and he is a very charismatic figure so he should be able to drum up sponsors and keep them happy.  Being President of North Sails doesn't hurt either.  Also, because he is 1 year older than Coutts, I did not bring up Read because I expected him to be on the boat.

Stop trying to read other peoples minds because you suck at it.  And, to you and only you, its Sir WetHog.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

Can I  call you Sir WetHog for a little while? Sounds awesome! :D

Ignore A4E. Given that she has stormed out of the place slamming the door behind her on 2 separate occasions,  she is clearly a figment of your imagination. 

I predicted just after etnz won that there would be at least 2 or 3 American  teams based on history and I stand by that.

America DOES NOT seem to take kindly to losing the cup and it seems to serve as a call to arms. Although losing it is obviously less of a deal than in 83.

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17 hours ago, jaysper said:

Can I  call you Sir WetHog for a little while? Sounds awesome! :D

Ignore A4E. Given that she has stormed out of the place slamming the door behind her on 2 separate occasions,  she is clearly a figment of your imagination. 

I predicted just after etnz won that there would be at least 2 or 3 American  teams based on history and I stand by that.

America DOES NOT seem to take kindly to losing the cup and it seems to serve as a call to arms. Although losing it is obviously less of a deal than in 83.

America now, in regards to the AC, is not the same place as America after '83.  I can only see 1 challenge at the most and even that is no guarantee.  Especially considering there hasn't been a peep out of anyone affiliated with the NYYC.  One would think they would be chomping at the bit to bring the Cup back to its rightful home, like they were after the Kiwi's won in '95, which would mean drumming up support through the American sailing community or at least announcing themselves as a potential challenger eager for the protocol to be released.  But nothing and it only seems logical to use the NYYC as a barometer of American interest in challenging for the Cup.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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On 9/18/2017 at 4:21 PM, Brutal said:

Oracle - Larry checked off the box on his bucket list with DoGzilla.  My guess is that he moves onto the next challenge on his list.  OUT

BAR - I think Sir Ben wants to play but he won't find the funding to mount a viable campaign and will eventually drop rather than be a bottom feeder.  OUT

Groupama TF - They won't enter in a monohull.  OUT

SB TJ - ORTUSA2.0 has lost all funding and technical support.  OUT

Artemis - With Dalts throwing up his nationality wall (fence, caution tape or whatever), they won't be able to keep their sailing team together and still comply and compete.  OUT

Alinghi - I think Ernie's lost his taste for the Cup and remains on the beach.  OUT

Luna Rossa - Mr. Prada is going to outspend ETNZ 2-to-1 minimum in an effort to check the box on his bucket list.  And he'll remind Dalts at every turn that without his support, true or not, ETNZ would have never made it to Bermuda.  He'll also cover his condoms in sand right before he rams his cock up Dalts' ass every night...  IN

ETNZ - will spend the next 4 years sucking the dicks of anyone who will give them money, all the while, taking it up the ass from their CoR and sodomizing the NZ taxpayers... IN

They might get one or two other challengers, but none with any real chance to win.  

But as bad as it will get for ETNZ, that's nothing compared to the ass reaming the NZ taxpayers have coming to them...

From a number of teams perspective, it will look a lot like SF in AC 34 except the boats won't be nearly as fast or interesting...  Larry and Russell fucked up a ton in the AC, but they did make strides toward making it marketable.  Personally, I liked the short quick races as it was easy to take a quick break at work and catch a race, but at the same time I did hate the whole racing in a box concept.  Sponsors aren't going to pay big money for an event with little to no exposure.  We see it here in the US in stock car racing.  Sponsors want to be seen out front and in Victory Lane.  If the teams they are backing don't get the job done, they either walk away entirely or jump to a mega team with competitive entries.  If the leaks are to be believed, the steps ETNZ and Luna Rossa are taking leading up to AC 36 are moving the event back to where it was a decade ago.  Big budgets and only 1 or 2 big dog teams with a shot.  Today's economic environment isn't going to support that.   

I think you are very close to correct. 

I suspect the bubble teams are:

BAR: will only go in if funding is sufficient to make them truly competitive. Maybe if the billionaire identified by Gladwell wants in and will join forces with BAR, then there might be something to it.

Some USA team: maybe LE kicks in a few bucks or some technology to help another team, but I think he's out of the primary role. If de Vos or someone else mounts a challenge, will likely be a bottom feeder with no real chance. 

Some Aussie team: More or less the same position as a new US team in that any brand-new team has to go through a couple of cycles to be competitive, and does anyone down under want to take on a multi-cycle commitment at this time?

Some poodle team: If "Mr. Prada" (I like that) finds he's the only challenger, maybe he'll bankroll someone else. Heck, if there is a 2-boat cap, his bankrolling someone else actually gets him to a 4-boat cap. 

 

It's all speculation at this point, isn't it. And some have better access to inside information than others. I have none. But...

 

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4 hours ago, WetHog said:

America now, in regards to the AC, is not the same place as America after '83.  I can only see 1 challenge at the most and even that is no guarantee.  Especially considering there hasn't been a peep out of anyone affiliated with the NYYC.  One would think they would be chomping at the bit to bring the Cup back to its rightful home, like they were after the Kiwi's won in '95, which would mean drumming up support through the American sailing community or at least announcing themselves as a potential challenger eager for the protocol to be released.  But nothing and it only seems logical to use the NYYC as a barometer of American interest in challenging for the Cup.

WetHog  :ph34r:

It is, at the moment, in "its rightful home"

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5 hours ago, WetHog said:

America now, in regards to the AC, is not the same place as America after '83.  I can only see 1 challenge at the most and even that is no guarantee.  Especially considering there hasn't been a peep out of anyone affiliated with the NYYC.  One would think they would be chomping at the bit to bring the Cup back to its rightful home, like they were after the Kiwi's won in '95, which would mean drumming up support through the American sailing community or at least announcing themselves as a potential challenger eager for the protocol to be released.  But nothing and it only seems logical to use the NYYC as a barometer of American interest in challenging for the Cup.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Wait for the Proto and ACC Rule announcements, Hoggie.

Even JS seems to acknowledge teams need to know where the goal posts are before committing - something of a 180 degree shift for him. But then he's got no gig, so he can afford to be magnanimous, I guess. 

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3 hours ago, 2Newts said:

I think you are very close to correct. 

I suspect the bubble teams are:

BAR: will only go in if funding is sufficient to make them truly competitive. Maybe if the billionaire identified by Gladwell wants in and will join forces with BAR, then there might be something to it.

Some USA team: maybe LE kicks in a few bucks or some technology to help another team, but I think he's out of the primary role. If de Vos or someone else mounts a challenge, will likely be a bottom feeder with no real chance. 

Some Aussie team: More or less the same position as a new US team in that any brand-new team has to go through a couple of cycles to be competitive, and does anyone down under want to take on a multi-cycle commitment at this time?

Some poodle team: If "Mr. Prada" (I like that) finds he's the only challenger, maybe he'll bankroll someone else. Heck, if there is a 2-boat cap, his bankrolling someone else actually gets him to a 4-boat cap. 

 

It's all speculation at this point, isn't it. And some have better access to inside information than others. I have none. But...

 

The elephant in the room regarding a new U.S. team being a bottom feeder is that Larry probably had contracts with the bulk of Team Oracle in case he needed them another cycle. He may be able to hand a turn key syndicate to another U.S. team. Obviously the sailing team would need adjustments for nationality rules, but having all the design, build, shore team, etc. pretty well sorted could be a solid head start for a new team. 

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2 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Wait for the Proto and ACC Rule announcements, Hoggie.

Even JS seems to acknowledge teams need to know where the goal posts are before committing - something of a 180 degree shift for him. But then he's got no gig, so he can afford to be magnanimous, I guess. 

Actually, in AC 35 the biggest sticking point for ITA (and ETNZ, for that matter) was that OR directly involved the other teams in the boat selection process, and arrived at a consensus that worked for everyone. RC and LE bent over backwards to create a fair regatta with the largest possible fleet. The proof is in the pudding - ETNZ, a challenger, won, and Artemis would've also had a very good chance in the final. Sure the Italians got butthurt, but when don't they? In any case, they extracted their revenge by sharing technology, some of their top guys and a satchel of cold hard cash with ETNZ, which certainly was a contributing factor with regards to their win.

There was some epic racing in Bermuda - let's hope the next edition is as good.

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^ The 'boat selection process' had already taken place my friend.

It involved the one and only challenger, LR. What is more the Class Rule stated (for obvious reasons) that it could not be changed in any way without unanimity - so when you say consulted their poodles you mean ignoring the previous written and published agreement with the COR which was the basis of the whole AC cycle.

And you see that as admirable???

 

Italians got butthurt - I wonder why.

 

Any other historical re-writing you want to do

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^ I didn't characterize it one way or the other - merely noted that it made for a better regatta. 

There is nothing historically inaccurate in what I wrote. You just don't like it, because it doesn't fit your 'I hate OR' narrative.

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35 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

Actually, in AC 35 the biggest sticking point for ITA (and ETNZ, for that matter) was that OR directly involved the other teams in the boat selection process, and arrived at a consensus that worked for everyone. RC and LE bent over backwards to create a fair regatta with the largest possible fleet. The proof is in the pudding - ETNZ, a challenger, won, and Artemis would've also had a very good chance in the final. Sure the Italians got butthurt, but when don't they? In any case, they extracted their revenge by sharing technology, some of their top guys and a satchel of cold hard cash with ETNZ, which certainly was a contributing factor with regards to their win.

There was some epic racing in Bermuda - let's hope the next edition is as good.

Perfect. Mike drop.. 

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6 hours ago, Barnyb said:

It is, at the moment, in "its rightful home"

You said it, at the moment.

4 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Wait for the Proto and ACC Rule announcements, Hoggie.

Even JS seems to acknowledge teams need to know where the goal posts are before committing - something of a 180 degree shift for him. But then he's got no gig, so he can afford to be magnanimous, I guess. 

Not sure the protocol will matter much.  It comes down to public interest and willingness of people with deep pockets to foot the bill.  Not a lot of both in the US at this moment.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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13 minutes ago, WetHog said:

 It comes down to public interest and willingness of people ..

It will come down mostly to selling public interest in NZ, to the NZ ticket-buying or the NZ TV-watching public, since nobody else cares much. The touring of the Cup around the country should, may, give cover to the politicians when they vote about whether to direct actual taxpayer funds to it.

P$B looks to me like a good direction to look, for if cash-strapped Auckland would like to find or charge the money it will take to  clear out whatever waterfront space the event is trying to rent or reconstruct. Nobody else looks to be stepping up, so why not?

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3 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Actually, in AC 35 the biggest sticking point for ITA (and ETNZ, for that matter) was that OR directly involved the other teams in the boat selection process, and arrived at a consensus that worked for everyone....

 

LOL, the "other teams" being the LFA poodles?? "Consensus" facilitated from retrospective rules manipulation for majority decisions? Thank fuck they're gone from AC36.

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4 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Actually, in AC 35 the biggest sticking point for ITA (and ETNZ, for that matter) was that OR directly involved the other teams in the boat selection process, and arrived at a consensus that worked for everyone. RC and LE bent over backwards to create a fair regatta with the largest possible fleet. The proof is in the pudding - ETNZ, a challenger, won, and Artemis would've also had a very good chance in the final. Sure the Italians got butthurt, but when don't they? In any case, they extracted their revenge by sharing technology, some of their top guys and a satchel of cold hard cash with ETNZ, which certainly was a contributing factor with regards to their win.

There was some epic racing in Bermuda - let's hope the next edition is as good.

t's pretty obvious from their dialogue that the aspect of AC35 they disliked the most was changing the boat after it had already been decided and they had already invested time and money working on it.

You can't have a consensus when 2 of your 5 people disagree...  The best you could call that is a majority.

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^ Artemis, BAR, JPN, FRA and OR makes 5. And before you start in on 'poodle this and poodle that', I would remind you that ETNZ and LR pioneered the 'poodle' concept in AC34, and that arguable no one has done it better.

Just sayin'. 

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30 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ Artemis, BAR, JPN, FRA and OR makes 5. And before you start in on 'poodle this and poodle that', I would remind you that ETNZ and LR pioneered the 'poodle' concept in AC34, and that arguable no one has done it better.

Just sayin'. 

That's some selective counting though.  France and TJ weren't in with the AC60 and - IIRC - BAR were also on the fence so it was a vote for survival more than anything else.  I'm not sure what is driving the re-branding of Oracle as the bastion of fairness, but after the promise of the 2011 DOG challenge the story was pretty dismal thereafter and largely hypocritical given how much they mirrored Ernie in so many respects.  

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^ I don't think any AC defender ever has been a 'bastion of fairness'. I think OR did a pretty fair job, though, and I completely disagree with the contention that OR was as bad as Ernie. Did you perhaps forget the Ernie-funded nuisance lawsuit against the GYYC that was in the background of the entire AC34 cycle? LE never did anything remotely like that. They were well behaved winners in 2013, and gracious losers in 2017. Sure, JS is a character - I've met him, he's exactly who he seems to be, straight talking, tough, and a relentless competitor who is in it to win it. But there were no dark mutterings of 'cheating' and 'unfair' etc ad nauseum, for example.