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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

192 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Shipping? As in an air lift?

The boats would be disappointingly old fashioned if they were narrow enough to fit in a plane.

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It will be amazingly crooked if the 'events in Italy' that P$B announced are the CSS, for Challengers only, while ETNZ got the luxury of avoiding all that time, expense, and the messing around in non-venue sailing conditions forced on everyone else to only their disadvantages. Especially for the CiC shipping-time challenged (Oz?) and any one-boat teams who can't simultaneously run operations in NZ. It's a short timeline, plus (except to Verdier presumably) a completely new boat.

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22 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I doubt GD will bend over on anything else, but it is very clear to me that the choice of monohull vs multihull is out of his hands and that decision was made by Bertelli. From there on, i suspect and hope it is a proper negotiated protocol as I don't think GD would allow anything else. 

My fear is that in an attempt to not look like they have stepped from the 21st century back to the 19th century, they don't go for something that is so radical that it makes a fast boat but a shit match racer. It is an irony that the slower the boats, the better the match racing.

The boat choice is out of GD's hand because he doesn't have 25mil to repay his loan to The Poodle, accorder to TE:

Quote

The interview also appears to confirm what SI also reported months ago – that in return for backing Emirates Team New Zealand with men and matériel against their shared nemesis, Larry Ellison's Oracle Team USA, not only would CNDS/Prada be challenger of record, but AC36 would be raced in monohulls. We hear that the total support from Mr Bertelli for ETNZ was in the neighborhood of US$25 million in the way of a loan that would have to be paid back to Mr. Bertelli if AC36 were not raced in monohulls.

 https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/09/11/AC36-ETNZ-confirm-high-performance-monohull-for-the-next-Cup-happy-days-are-here-again

20 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Alinghi raced in the home waters of the event .. Oracle raced all over the world.

Act 1 was held in Marseilles, France, Acts 6 and 7 were held in Malmo, Sweden and Acts 8 and 9 were held in Trapani, Italy.  The rest were held in Valencia.  

Technically, none of the events associated with AC32 were sailed in Alinghi's home waters, but while not all over the world 5 of the Acts were held in places other than Valencia.  So precedent has been set.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, WetHog said:

Act 1 was held in Marseilles, France, Acts 6 and 7 were held in Malmo, Sweden and Acts 8 and 9 were held in Trapani, Italy.  The rest were held in Valencia.  

Technically, none of the events associated with AC32 were sailed in Alinghi's home waters, but while not all over the world 5 of the Acts were held in places other than Valencia.  So precedent has been set.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Ok .. So Oracle and Alinghi were both the same .. Hopefully ETNZ will break that cycle and not sail with the challengers until the they are reduced to one and it will be at the venue in Auckland.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

Ok .. So Oracle and Alinghi were both the same .. Hopefully ETNZ will break that cycle and not sail with the challengers until the they are reduced to one and it will be at the venue in Auckland.

I think the more important issue is that they do not participate in the LVC.  That is unacceptable.  

Acts are just to make sponsors happy.  I have no issue with the Defender participating in something like that so long as any results from said acts do not put Challengers at a disadvantage in the Cup defense like OR-BDA starting the AC35 Cup defense up one point.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

Ok .. So Oracle and Alinghi were both the same .. Hopefully ETNZ will break that cycle and not sail with the challengers until the they are reduced to one and it will be at the venue in Auckland.

If there are any events in Italy and elsewhere, I hope it's a revival of the Louis Vuitton Pacific Series (2009-2010) - perhaps using borrowed TP52s if Dalton can get convince the owners to cooperate.

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26 minutes ago, WetHog said:

I think the more important issue is that they do not participate in the LVC.  That is unacceptable.  

Acts are just to make sponsors happy.  I have no issue with the Defender participating in something like that so long as any results from said acts do not put Challengers at a disadvantage in the Cup defense like OR-BDA starting the AC35 Cup defense up one point.

WetHog  :ph34r:

And make sure the boats are OD so nobody is forced to show their hand any earlier than they want.

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4 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Ok .. So Oracle and Alinghi were both the same .. Hopefully ETNZ will break that cycle and not sail with the challengers until the they are reduced to one and it will be at the venue in Auckland.

How about the Australians? they raced against the challengers in the 12M worlds in (IIRC) Neport. Only the Americans refused to race against other 12's in events outside of the match itself. For the 12m worlds in Brighton, I believe that one of the US boats even made the trip over only for the NYYC to stop them participating at the last minute. They were afraid it would give the challengers an advantage.

The difference between the Acts and the rest of the racing is that Alinghi didn't use the boat that was to later defend the Cup. Most of the leading teams used their first boat, leaving their second and LV/Cup boat for when the action began. This ensured that when Alinghi and TNZ lined up for the first race of the match, nobody knew who was going to be faster or who would win. I have a particularly vivid memory of Butterworth commenting half way down the first run "this thing certainly has some wheels downwind". It was clear he had no idea as to the performance differences between the 2 boats before they started racing and I think that is what people want to see again.

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44 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

How about the Australians? they raced against the challengers in the 12M worlds in (IIRC) Neport. Only the Americans refused to race against other 12's in events outside of the match itself. For the 12m worlds in Brighton, I believe that one of the US boats even made the trip over only for the NYYC to stop them participating at the last minute. They were afraid it would give the challengers an advantage.

As I recall the Australians held informal trials with challengers that had been eliminated and at that stage Stars & Stripes was the only challenger and he did not race until the AC.  Certainly there were no regattas that included challengers and defenders.  

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3 hours ago, jaysper said:

And make sure the boats are OD so nobody is forced to show their hand any earlier than they want.

Although I agree with Hoggie that it's not too bad, if Def and Challs face each others during the "Acts" (as long as the LVC stays clean), I hate the idea that they use their AC boats for it. This should be reserved for the AC proper.
Unfortunately, there are no old, "last season" boats available yet, and a forced ACWS participation in OD boats can't be the solution as well.

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7 hours ago, WetHog said:

I think the more important issue is that they do not participate in the LVC.  That is unacceptable.  

Acts are just to make sponsors happy.  I have no issue with the Defender participating in something like that so long as any results from said acts do not put Challengers at a disadvantage in the Cup defense like OR-BDA starting the AC35 Cup defense up one point.

WetHog  :ph34r:

100% agree.  Stingray threw out his typical "crooked" spin last night at the prospect of an Italian event, but the participation by the defender in the LVC with the ability to influence the outcome set a new low for defender shenanigans.  When Alinghi tried it almost everyone here rightfully decried it as outrageous, but when Oracle did the the same a select few here went awfully quiet and said it was ok because they only had one boat ...

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3 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

As I recall the Australians held informal trials with challengers that had been eliminated and at that stage Stars & Stripes was the only challenger and he did not race until the AC.  Certainly there were no regattas that included challengers and defenders.  

The Aussies held a worlds in Freo in 85 or 86 with everybody there except S&S and maybe Blackaller. All of them were racing old boats or first design builds for that cycle. No one had their Cup boat at that point, they were still being built. They held another in Lulea Sweden after the 87 match. It really showed how S&S 87 was in the corner of the rule as in the light air she was barely competitive, I think a best finish of 3rd or 4th. Kooks and NZ being the top 2 boats.

The Kooks trialed some with NZ but their race info was held back after Fay was 'advised' by some US and other banking interests that it would be bad for business to do so. No one up until this latest series had raced a defender against a challenger boat prior to the Cup match.

Some 'show' races to raise interest, train, and gain sponsor exposure is no problem in my book as long as it is pre-match and not in the actual Cup match boats. The ACTS and worlds regatta's were no harm to the spectacle and excitement of that first Cup race.

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Plenty of talk about regattas around NZ to give all of the country a taste of cup action.
I remember Wellington having a IACC regatta back in the late 90's something like that.
Dubai would be in the mix too obviously.

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3 hours ago, ezyb said:

100% agree.  Stingray threw out his typical "crooked" spin last night at the prospect of an Italian event, but the participation by the defender in the LVC with the ability to influence the outcome set a new low for defender shenanigans.  When Alinghi tried it almost everyone here rightfully decried it as outrageous, but when Oracle did the the same a select few here went awfully quiet and said it was ok because they only had one boat ...

What Alinghi proposed to do for AC33 went a lot farther than what Oracle did in AC35, in how deep into the CSS they would sail and in their ability to affect the standings.

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15 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Ok .. So Oracle and Alinghi were both the same .. Hopefully ETNZ will break that cycle and not sail with the challengers until the they are reduced to one and it will be at the venue in Auckland.

Oracle and Alinghi weren't the same. My Team only sailed in the "Acts" during the AC 32 Cup Cycle and they hardly influenced any Result there cuz at the end of the Acts the Points Alinghi garnered were taken away and all the 9 Challengers sailed in the actual LVC or Challenger Selection Series for themselves. I have no problem if ETNZ tries to do the same thing during the AC 36 Cup Cycle.

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^ Looks like you never read Ernie's initial protocol for AC33. Alinghi wanted to sail with the Challs until deep into the CSS/LVC. It was at least as bad ar OR's.

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1 minute ago, Rennmaus said:

^ Looks like you never read Ernie's initial protocol for AC33. Alinghi wanted to sail with the Challs until deep into the CSS/LVC. It was at least as bad ar OR's.

I'm not talking AC 33, I'm talking AC 32...prolly.

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2 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

^ Looks like you never read Ernie's initial protocol for AC33. Alinghi wanted to sail with the Challs until deep into the CSS/LVC. It was at least as bad ar OR's.

Every bit, Rennie. And the worst bit is LE was Ernie's biggest critic.

Go figure.

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14 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Every bit, Rennie. And the worst bit is LE was Ernie's biggest critic.

Go figure.

I remember oh so well. Together with the choice of Bermuda a main reason of disappointment with OR's conduct of the last AC.
 

16 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

I'm not talking AC 33, I'm talking AC 32...prolly.

???
Prolly or in fact?
BTW, SR was talking about AC33, and the conversation as such was about the Def sailing with the Challs.

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58 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Oracle and Alinghi weren't the same. My Team only sailed in the "Acts" during the AC 32 Cup Cycle and they hardly influenced any Result there cuz at the end of the Acts the Points Alinghi garnered were taken away and all the 9 Challengers sailed in the actual LVC or Challenger Selection Series for themselves. I have no problem if ETNZ tries to do the same thing during the AC 36 Cup Cycle.

 

4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

What Alinghi proposed to do for AC33 went a lot farther than what Oracle did in AC35, in how deep into the CSS they would sail and in their ability to affect the standings.

 

42 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

^ Looks like you never read Ernie's initial protocol for AC33. Alinghi wanted to sail with the Challs until deep into the CSS/LVC. It was at least as bad ar OR's.

None of you are right. It is a fact that Alinghi proposed that they sail in the LV up to the semi finals. What most failed to realise is that the only influence they would have was against a bad boat. They could not knock out a top contender. For example, if they decided to and had the ability to do so, if they beat the top contender and lost to all the others, that would still have meant the contender had lost 1 race which would not have caused a contender to be eliminated. What Alinghi's presence might have done is influence whichever team took the last place in the semis if there were 2 or more boats in contention for that last place but unless the order of races fell in a particular order, Alinghi would not have known who they were helping or not helping.

Oracle's situation was, IMO, far worse than Alinghi. As we saw, Oracle carried a point forward into the match.

I know the above view is unfashionable and everybody who has expressed it has been hounded, but many seem to focus on that rather than what i believe is the real issue. The challengers and defender should not meet in their race boats until the match. 

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51 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

 

(Snip)

The challengers and defender should not meet in their race boats until the match. 

+1 No argument from me on your last statement.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

 

 

None of you are right. It is a fact that Alinghi proposed that they sail in the LV up to the semi finals. What most failed to realise is that the only influence they would have was against a bad boat. They could not knock out a top contender. For example, if they decided to and had the ability to do so, if they beat the top contender and lost to all the others, that would still have meant the contender had lost 1 race which would not have caused a contender to be eliminated. What Alinghi's presence might have done is influence whichever team took the last place in the semis if there were 2 or more boats in contention for that last place but unless the order of races fell in a particular order, Alinghi would not have known who they were helping or not helping.

Oracle's situation was, IMO, far worse than Alinghi. As we saw, Oracle carried a point forward into the match.

I know the above view is unfashionable and everybody who has expressed it has been hounded, but many seem to focus on that rather than what i believe is the real issue. The challengers and defender should not meet in their race boats until the match. 

That's difficult to archieve IMO. Assuming that there are Pre-America's Cup and Pre-Prada Cup Regattas as mentioned by Mr. Bertelli which Boats do you want to use for those Races/Regattas?

My hunch is that ETNZ/LR will structure the next Cup Cycle similarly what Alinghi did in the lead up to the 2007 Cup. That was great IMO with the Acts (13) in 2005-2007, then the CSS and the Match itself. There will be some from of "Acts" in Italy I suspect somewhere starting in the 2nd Half of 2018.

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16 hours ago, jaysper said:

And make sure the boats are OD so nobody is forced to show their hand any earlier than they want.

OD boats are not necessary, a waste even.  It sounds like the boat rule will not be OD which means teams will build 2 boats.  So use boat 1 for whatever takes place in Italy and save  boat 2 for Auckland.  Problem solved.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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10 minutes ago, WetHog said:

OD boats are not necessary, a waste even.  It sounds like the boat rule will not be OD which means teams will build 2 boats.  So use boat 1 for whatever takes place in Italy and save  boat 2 for Auckland.  Problem solved.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yes, I think that would be a good solution. Boat 1 first has to be built though by all the Teams who are challenging. That's why I said probably no Racing until the 2nd Half of 2018 maybe even longer (1st Half of 2019).

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

OD boats are not necessary, a waste even.  It sounds like the boat rule will not be OD which means teams will build 2 boats.  So use boat 1 for whatever takes place in Italy and save  boat 2 for Auckland.  Problem solved.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

But then the teams are forced to reveal their hand as the first boat will undoubtedly show the trajectory of design that the teams are on.

Would prefer that a fleet of AC class boats are manufactured to a "base design" that everyone is compelled to purchase. 

Then unlike the AC45, if you are a low budget team then you can use that boat (albeit modified) for the challenger series itself.

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I like the idea of a OD boat that is class legal, with a prize for first placed OD boat (I thought they should have done this for AC35 also). This would be a strong incentive to low budget teams to enter. They still get to race the big teams and there is something worthwhile up for grabs.

For the acts; teams could enter this or their boat 1, then no one is forced to reveal anything they don't wish to share, nor compelled to purchase an OD boat if they don't want to.

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I'm really looking forward to Amazon's pending arrival in NZ as a potential broadcast partner for AC36 to service all our AC fanatics around the world. Amazon have already stated their interest in the All Blacks and rugby as a content for their platform which is causing SKY to shit bricks given their unpopularity with their subscribers.Amazon would be the ideal vehicle to stream AC36 world-wide...

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3 hours ago, WetHog said:

OD boats are not necessary, a waste even.  It sounds like the boat rule will not be OD which means teams will build 2 boats.  So use boat 1 for whatever takes place in Italy and save  boat 2 for Auckland.  Problem solved.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

This is the format I have been favouring for a long time.

The rules shouldn't be OD, but there should be a compliant one design available for purchase for teams that want it.

One year out they race in boat one, then they all come back for the real event in boat two (with upgraded boat one as a backup). 

It's a tried a true format that has worked many times before.

Also get rid of the nonsensical limited sailing days and can't race against each other nonsense.

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34 minutes ago, mogs said:

I like the idea of a OD boat that is class legal, with a prize for first placed OD boat (I thought they should have done this for AC35 also). This would be a strong incentive to low budget teams to enter. They still get to race the big teams and there is something worthwhile up for grabs.

For the acts; teams could enter this or their boat 1, then no one is forced to reveal anything they don't wish to share, nor compelled to purchase an OD boat if they don't want to.

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

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46 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

Why do we need it?

There may be many reasons depending who you are but the biggest reason for a sideshow in Italy will be because of the deal done with P$B, who already announced that it was a condition he made in the 2015 exchange with GD.  Shrug, maybe it's all for the good, time will tell.

I wonder how much time and money teams will be spending in Italy, instead of in Auckland. If the posted rumors about a Prada Cup CSS in Italy are true, well it could be a lot.

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When talking about potential American challengers, how come no one mentions Jim Clark?  Being the owner and driving force behind such sailing programs as Hanuman and Comanche and having a net worth of 2 billion should make him a legit possibility to head a credible American challenger, IMO.  So long as he has the desire and will.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

I guess it depends on your point of view. Get rid of all the "side shows" and you send the cup back in time to being a rich man's, exclusive club. Teams like ETNZ only survive because of commercial sponsorship. If you reduce the exposure for the sponsors back to the LV and the cup itself, you severely limit the number of teams. You probably seriously harm ETNZ's ability to be competitive.

If we accept that in today's environment, giving sponsors exposure is actually desirable because we want teams to be able to get funding, the question is what do you need to do to justify a total of, say, $100m over 3 years. That is serious wedge. You can get serious exposure on an F1 car for that money or it will buy you 2.5 seasons of shirt sponsorship of one of the top 4 British Premiership football teams. The AC is different, appeals to different audiences, but a little racing in the LV followed by a chance of racing in the cup itself is not a return on $100m.

The question is how to get more exposure for the sponsors without screwing the whole event. I think the ACWS screwed it up and got worse the second time around. The initial racing back in AC34 was actually pretty good, attracted crowds and I suspect was good for sponsors. I think the "Acts" of AC32 also worked. What didn't work was over pandering to live TV which created a huge fail. The question should be about what is the right direction, because "nothing" is not the answer.

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3 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

It does help with the marketability.

Ernie and Lazza are both total cunts that got a lot wrong but this isn't one of them IMO. 

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21 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

The difference between the Acts and the rest of the racing is that Alinghi didn't use the boat that was to later defend the Cup.

That isn't much of a difference. A two boat team will know precisely the speed differences between their two boats.

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3 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

That isn't much of a difference. A two boat team will know precisely the speed differences between their two boats.

We will have to agree to disagree. Events held before the cup itself in boats that by definition are an earlier generation doesn't tell you anything about how the performance of your new boat will compare with the new boats built by the others. As you could tell by Buttereworth's reaction during the first race of AC32, he clearly didn't have much of an idea of how the boats were going to compare.

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3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You are all wrong, I know best......

Repeat.....

 

I think it would probably be safer to go with GD's take on what is and is not required to gain sponsorship today over your simplistic view.

2 weeks....

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39 minutes ago, nav said:

I think it would probably be safer to go with GD's take on what is and is not required to gain sponsorship today over your simplistic view.

2 weeks....

I would bet you a decent sum of money that there will be more than just the LV and the cup matches. Since when does SA put a brake on speculation. You have done it for years :P

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11 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

The biggest Reason why we need it is to keep sponsors happy. Are you really thinking commercial sponsors would sponsor a Team with no Events for 4 years? Nope my friend. Unless your Team is headed/sponsored by a billionaire if we wouldn't have AC Racing/Sailing related Events for 4 years until the actual CSS & Cup Match Teams would die right of the bat see Team Origin.

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13 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Just one point. Why do we need all this side-show World Series/Acts bullshit anyway. It all just gets ridiculously expensive and in the way of the ultimate goal - winning the  Cup. So RC's flying circus becomes GD's not quite so fast flying circus?

Eyes on the prize guys. Not the fucking side show!

I love that!
Actually, all we need is a YC that has a boat challenging another, foreign YC that has a boat too. Plus a couple of buoys, a committee boat with commitee and a strip of water... Voilà, an AC match!



Hmmmmmmm, apparently that's not what any Def and Chall want.

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1 hour ago, Modurn-ate said:

I seem to remember since the French started the elimination thing that the challenger series is run by the challengers.  I can not see any reason why the poodle defender has any say in trying on a LV series, in fact did the leaders of Emirates dump the LV merch as a gesture of good riddance, at the prize ceremony?

Prada elimination series in Italy, stops the enemy seeing too much of a potential challenger. reduced costs for teams sailing relatively locally and excellent sponsor timezone rewards.

If the eliminations were to be held completely in Italy then ETNZ would not be looking to accommodate 10 or more syndicate bases in Auckland. 

So.. probably not a real 'elimination' in Italy, although it may carry points forward to Auckland.

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

I love that!
Actually, all we need is a YC that has a boat challenging another, foreign YC that has a boat too. Plus a couple of buoys, a committee boat with commitee and a strip of water... Voilà, an AC match!



Hmmmmmmm, apparently that's not what any Def and Chall want.

Pity.

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Oracle - Larry checked off the box on his bucket list with DoGzilla.  My guess is that he moves onto the next challenge on his list.  OUT

BAR - I think Sir Ben wants to play but he won't find the funding to mount a viable campaign and will eventually drop rather than be a bottom feeder.  OUT

Groupama TF - They won't enter in a monohull.  OUT

SB TJ - ORTUSA2.0 has lost all funding and technical support.  OUT

Artemis - With Dalts throwing up his nationality wall (fence, caution tape or whatever), they won't be able to keep their sailing team together and still comply and compete.  OUT

Alinghi - I think Ernie's lost his taste for the Cup and remains on the beach.  OUT

Luna Rossa - Mr. Prada is going to outspend ETNZ 2-to-1 minimum in an effort to check the box on his bucket list.  And he'll remind Dalts at every turn that without his support, true or not, ETNZ would have never made it to Bermuda.  He'll also cover his condoms in sand right before he rams his cock up Dalts' ass every night...  IN

ETNZ - will spend the next 4 years sucking the dicks of anyone who will give them money, all the while, taking it up the ass from their CoR and sodomizing the NZ taxpayers... IN

They might get one or two other challengers, but none with any real chance to win.  

But as bad as it will get for ETNZ, that's nothing compared to the ass reaming the NZ taxpayers have coming to them...

From a number of teams perspective, it will look a lot like SF in AC 34 except the boats won't be nearly as fast or interesting...  Larry and Russell fucked up a ton in the AC, but they did make strides toward making it marketable.  Personally, I liked the short quick races as it was easy to take a quick break at work and catch a race, but at the same time I did hate the whole racing in a box concept.  Sponsors aren't going to pay big money for an event with little to no exposure.  We see it here in the US in stock car racing.  Sponsors want to be seen out front and in Victory Lane.  If the teams they are backing don't get the job done, they either walk away entirely or jump to a mega team with competitive entries.  If the leaks are to be believed, the steps ETNZ and Luna Rossa are taking leading up to AC 36 are moving the event back to where it was a decade ago.  Big budgets and only 1 or 2 big dog teams with a shot.  Today's economic environment isn't going to support that.   

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^ I can imagine Quantum Racing/De Vos making an entry if the boat isn't too complicated and the crew requirements reasonably sized.

Can imagine BAR making it too, somehow. Artemis must be a possibility since TT can afford to spend whatever he wants, probably with more ease than even P$B.

Very much doubt LE will challenge right after losing, it's never been done before.

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6 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ I can imagine Quantum Racing/De Vos making an entry if the boat isn't too complicated and the crew requirements reasonably sized.

Can imagine BAR making it too, somehow. Artemis must be a possibility since TT can afford to spend whatever he wants, probably with more ease than even P$B.

Very much doubt LE will challenge right after losing, it's never been done before.

DeVos/NY Yacht Club is possible.

BAR/Ben Ainslie will only challenge as "Brutal" says if he gets the funding and if he gets a real shot at winning it. If he gets that he's in...if he doesn't he's out.

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Very much doubt LE will challenge right after losing, it's never been done before.

What do you mean by that Stinger?

ETNZ challenged in 2007 after losing in 2003. 

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14 minutes ago, TimmyHate said:

What do you mean by that Stinger?

ETNZ challenged in 2007 after losing in 2003. 

Good catch, you're right.

But unlike with LE that NZ team was differently led and funded; post-2003 is when de Nora and GD took over.

Come to think of it, DC (but also under different people) came back after the '83 loss too, and with success.

Was thinking more along the lines of Lipton, EB, other $B's.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Good catch, you're right.

But unlike with LE that NZ team was differently led and funded; post-2003 is when de Nora and GD took over.

Come to think of it, DC (but also under different people) came back after the '83 loss too, and with success.

Was thinking more along the lines of Lipton, EB, other $B's.

From that point of view yes - the $B's don't tend to come right back (prob too busy having their "ego" massaged by some attractive member of their preferred sex) 

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11 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

^ I can imagine Quantum Racing/De Vos making an entry if the boat isn't too complicated and the crew requirements reasonably sized.

Can imagine BAR making it too, somehow. Artemis must be a possibility since TT can afford to spend whatever he wants, probably with more ease than even P$B.

Very much doubt LE will challenge right after losing, it's never been done before.

Never been done before? Ah...you sure about that? :D

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4 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

Never been done before? Ah...you sure about that? :D

This was already covered...

Dennis Connor did it in '87, albeit with an entirely different team he and Malin Burnham built from the ground up under the burgee of SDYC.

Team New Zealand did it as well.  Same yacht club and mostly similar team to the group that lost it.

I sincerely doubt that Larry Ellison and Oracle will be back in the America's Cup.  As I stated above, LE checked the box on his bucket list and he'll move on to the next challenge he has set for himself there.

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16 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

DeVos/NY Yacht Club is possible.

BAR/Ben Ainslie will only challenge as "Brutal" says if he gets the funding and if he gets a real shot at winning it. If he gets that he's in...if he doesn't he's out.

DeVos will be separate from the NYYC challenge, which is as well funded as the MI one.  Three Italian challenges are spooling up.  Prediction from an angry Italian: "Look for a maximum 2 team-per-country rule" - call it an 'anti-mascalzone' rule.

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I'm guessing SBD meant more - ETNZ AC34->35, AR AC34->35, LR AC34->35*, etc....

Was a Trumpish 'fact' from SR

.......................................

^ call it an 'anti-mascalzone' rule.

Maybe that is what de Nora was getting at with the out of the blue 'Quality over quantity' comment!?

Don't get that and can't see Auckland/NZ being very sympathetic to that attitude - the more the merrier shirley;)

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17 hours ago, Brutal said:

where it was a decade ago.  Big budgets and only 1 or 2 big dog teams with a shot. 

The past three Cups all fit your 'where it was a decade ago'.

1) Valencia 2010: Two big budgets, 1 team with a shot (OR)

2) SF 2013: Three big budgets, 2 teams with a shot (OR, ETNZ)

3) BDA 2017: Five big budgets, 2 teams with a shot (AR, ETNZ)

 

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3 minutes ago, nav said:

I'm guessing SBD meant ETNZAC34->35, AR AC34->35, LR AC34/35*, etc....

Was a 'Trumpish fact' from SR

Stinger runs on the same fuel as the Donald: Alternative Facts

"But I meant back in the old days...um...Lipton..."

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On 9/18/2017 at 3:31 AM, WetHog said:

When talking about potential American challengers, how come no one mentions Jim Clark?  Being the owner and driving force behind such sailing programs as Hanuman and Comanche and having a net worth of 2 billion should make him a legit possibility to head a credible American challenger, IMO.  So long as he has the desire and will.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Comanche sold, Clark out of sailing.  

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37 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

DeVos will be separate from the NYYC challenge, which is as well funded as the MI one.

Who or what is MI?

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

DeVos will be separate from the NYYC challenge, which is as well funded as the MI one.  Three Italian challenges are spooling up.  Prediction from an angry Italian: "Look for a maximum 2 team-per-country rule" - call it an 'anti-mascalzone' rule.

The Michigan challenge doesn't have the money so stop talking about nonsense.

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9 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

The Michigan challenge doesn't have the money so stop talking about nonsense.

You have been wrong in every post you have dumped here...

The DeVos family live in MI, thier company is based in MI and last year had a revenue of $8B....oh and among thier many boats is an 86' maxi monohull..

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16 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

In a new class many 'experts' including GD expected that AC35 Bermuda would be a rout by somebody but I think it was tighter than most expected; AR and OR were right there with ETNZ, maybe disadvantaged only in the sweet spot of wind range that ETNZ did a better job of gambling on; which is exactly what GV summarized it as.

I hope this next boat can come as close to providing competition as tight. Allowable by the Prot, continuous improvements would help achieve it.

 

Spin-bot in an 'I love to re-write history to suit myself and will (mis)quote anything to support my many fantasies' surprise

 

18 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I wanted to keep pressing the tech edge with foiling multi's, so I'm disappointed. But even if it was a big $ell-out by GD to P$B I am open-minded and actually guardedly optimistic about the new boat GV is designing and, as importantly, the coming Protocol.

I've also come around to thinking that even 4 good quality teams would be plenty fun to watch. News, promotion and current info on teams is so readily available nowadays that the 6 in Bermuda was almost overkill, for close-followers.

 

:lol: You were absent for most of the build-up to AC35, so obviously didn't notice that there was NOTHING coming out for most of the OTUSA controlled cycle and what there was later was 99% PR polished pap

All hail RG for at least trying

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On 9/18/2017 at 2:32 AM, Indio said:

I'm really looking forward to Amazon's pending arrival in NZ as a potential broadcast partner for AC36 to service all our AC fanatics around the world. Amazon have already stated their interest in the All Blacks and rugby as a content for their platform which is causing SKY to shit bricks given their unpopularity with their subscribers.Amazon would be the ideal vehicle to stream AC36 world-wide...

Wait, you mean Amazon Prime where The Grand tour ply their trade.... couldn't be a better place apart from live tv on prime time, although that will never happen apart from in NZ.

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1 hour ago, ro! said:

You have been wrong in every post you have dumped here...

The DeVos family live in MI, thier company is based in MI and last year had a revenue of $8B....oh and among thier many boats is an 86' maxi monohull..

Americans having 3 Challengers like prolly Clean claims is blatant wrong.

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BAR are in, I remember Ba saying funding was in place for the next cup, besides you don'y build infrastructure in Portsmouth like they did for one shot. 

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20 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

Where's the story on this? 

 

Yeah. That was one expensive quickie ...

 

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

  Three Italian challenges are spooling up.  Prediction from an angry Italian: "Look for a maximum 2 team-per-country rule" - call it an 'anti-mascalzone' rule.

 

As usual, no money available from Costa Smeralda. Only WAG would be Bertelli goes all-in for his last Cup and finances a sort of SBTJ. He also considers Onorato a disgrace since his AC34 role as pseudo-CoR. No money on that side either, plus Onorato's got to be blacklisted by the Italian yachting community after his written antics on being disqualified at the J70 Worlds, as Clean should know

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1 hour ago, Raptorsailor said:

BAR are in, I remember Ba saying funding was in place for the next cup, besides you don'y build infrastructure in Portsmouth like they did for one shot. 

I wish you & Ben were right BUT at this Point I'm not convinced about anything. I'm not sure BA has 100% funding for AC 36 cuz the Budget will probably quite a bit higher than in AC 35. Until I see an Article on their Website that says something like "Land Rover BAR has its Challenge accepted by the RNZYS for America's Cup 36" I'm not convinced that there IN just yet.

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2 hours ago, nav said:

 

Spin-bot in an 'I love to re-write history to suit myself and will (mis)quote anything to support my many fantasies' surprise

 

 

:lol: You were absent for most of the build-up to AC35, so obviously didn't notice that there was NOTHING coming out for most of the OTUSA controlled cycle and what there was later was 99% PR polished pap

All hail RG for at least trying

Verdier is among those who have spoken about ETNZ being the faster boat in that sweet spot wind range. 

...

Was referring to info from the teams themselves. Lots and lots of videos in this cycle, like what has been the trend over time in other sports too. I get that NZ would prefer more teams but as a fan I thought 6 was plenty.

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5 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Comanche sold, Clark out of sailing.  

Well that sucks.  A Jim Clark financed, and Ken Read skippered, challenge is the only hope I had for a credible American entry into AC36.

2 hours ago, GauchoGreg said:

Where's the story on this? 

Exactly.  One of the bad ass boats ripping up the ocean over the last 3-4 years has been sold and the owner who financed its birth not only sold Comanche but, since he is out of sailing, has sold his J-Class Endeavour II replica Hanuman and no news on SA or any other sailing rag.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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21 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Well that sucks.  A Jim Clark financed, and Ken Read skippered, challenge is the only hope I had for a credible American entry into AC36.

Exactly.  One of the bad ass boats ripping up the ocean over the last 3-4 years has been sold and the owner who financed its birth not only sold Comanche but, since he is out of sailing, has sold his J-Class Endeavour II replica Hanuman and no news on SA or any other sailing rag.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I'm sure it is on the Front Page.  Where is the Front Page, again?

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1 minute ago, GauchoGreg said:

I'm sure it is on the Front Page.  Where is the Front Page, again?

Indeed.  There is talk in the StoH thread in Ocean Anarchy about Comanche being chartered, but nothing else I can find.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Americans having 3 Challengers like prolly Clean claims is blatant wrong.

And you know this because...?

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4 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

And you know this because...?

He read it on his mummy's soiled panties :lol:

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

Well that sucks.  A Jim Clark financed, and Ken Read skippered, challenge is the only hope I had for a credible American entry into AC36.

Exactly.  One of the bad ass boats ripping up the ocean over the last 3-4 years has been sold and the owner who financed its birth not only sold Comanche but, since he is out of sailing, has sold his J-Class Endeavour II replica Hanuman and no news on SA or any other sailing rag.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

I thought he had only chartered the big Indian to Croaky, not sold it. 

That aside, why do you write off Devoss for a credible challenge, but think Clark would do better. That doesn’t make any sense. 

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2 hours ago, Monkey said:

I thought he had only chartered the big Indian to Croaky, not sold it. 

That aside, why do you write off Devoss for a credible challenge, but think Clark would do better. That doesn’t make any sense. 

Well my fondness for Clark is more because he hired Ken Read and they built a pretty good program in Comanche.  I don't know much about the DeVos family accept they have had success in the TP52 Super Series.  Having said that, the Orlando Magic has been a joke of a franchise for some time now.  If they can't build a winning NBA team in a tax haven like Orlando then I don't have much faith they can step up to the big time sailing wise and win the Cup for the USA.  Love to be proven wrong though.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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9 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Alinghi in ?

Do you think GD was in Switzerland to buy chocolate ?

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1 minute ago, WetHog said:

Well my fondness for Clark is more because he hired Ken Read and they built a pretty good program in Comanche.  I don't know much about the DeVos family accept they have had success in the TP52 Super Series.  Having said that, the Orlando Magic has been a joke of a franchise for some time now.  If they can't build a winning NBA team in a tax haven like Orlando then I don't have much faith they can step up to the big time sailing wise and win the Cup for the USA.  Love to be proven wrong though.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Dig a bit deeper beyond the TP52 and you’ll see his passion for the sport with his MANY Windquest boats. Many were in the standard rich guy level of attainment, and more importantly, one design.  He didn’t just fund great big yachts then sit on shore while they went sailing. 

NBA teams are a joke. Only a few owners are passionate about the sport. Most are just in it to make $$$. 

I think Clark would only fund a team if he was pretty sure they’d win. Devoss would probably fund a team just because he wants to try to win. 

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4 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

And you know this because...?

Sssshhhh! Otherwise she will threaten to storm out of this forum and never come back.

We don't want that because it junks up the forum with a bunch of threads.

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"The best-laid plans of mice and men..."

Three American challengers?  I have my doubts about even a single challenger.

The AC is and has always been a rich man's game.  All the dreams that this niche event in a niche sport would ever have any sort of wider appeal and commercial sustainability has been pure fantasy.

Even if the potential sponsor pool wasn't already limited by its very nature, the wider sports world is seeing declining ratings, and the popular sports are having difficultly finding sponsorship to reach much larger audiences with better ROI.

That leaves the AC reliant on the whims of a rich guy wanting to scratch an itch, or settle a grudge.  At that level, money is never the issue, it's about keeping score and bragging rights.

DC was fortunate to ride the wave of history and sentiment that allowed him to do what he did, and carry it forward for a few years,  but that was a different sports world in a different time.

LE is driven by being the kind who likes to stir the pot, but he already got to stick it to both EB and ETNZ, so what's left to do?  Dunzo.

NZ can appreciate the AC, and Bertelli is still trying to scratch his itch.  Good for them, and I hope they're successful in restoring some sense of sanity and dignity to the event.

But I'd be surprised if anyone in the U.S. still gives enough of a shit.  But those MLM guys are nothing if not very pushy.  We'll see.

And just for entertainment, let's just say the Amway Challenge materializes, is successful, and takes the Cup.

Are the Great Lakes an "arm of the sea?" Does anyone want to open that can of worms again, LOL?

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10 hours ago, WetHog said:

Well my fondness for Clark is more because he hired Ken Read and they built a pretty good program in Comanche.  I don't know much about the DeVos family accept they have had success in the TP52 Super Series.  Having said that, the Orlando Magic has been a joke of a franchise for some time now.  If they can't build a winning NBA team in a tax haven like Orlando then I don't have much faith they can step up to the big time sailing wise and win the Cup for the USA.  Love to be proven wrong though.

WetHog  :ph34r:

How about using your brain/head Mr. WetHog? Ken Read has already done two Cups and two Volvos. The guy is 56 years old. The AC has become a young man's Game these Days. While the Foiling Monos will be somewhat slower than the Cats we had in AC 34 & 35 they will still be too fast for a 56-year old guy to handle it at the Helm IMO? The only role I can see Ken Read having is potentially CEO like Russell did in AC 34. And for my liking he's much better doing TV Commentary than stepping onto a Sailboat himself these Days.

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On 19/09/2017 at 7:48 AM, TimmyHate said:

What do you mean by that Stinger?

ETNZ challenged in 2007 after losing in 2003. 

And Dennis in 87 and Alan Bond for most of the 70's and 80's before he won it.

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1 hour ago, Alinghi4ever said:

How about using your brain/head Mr. WetHog? Ken Read has already done two Cups and two Volvos. The guy is 56 years old. The AC has become a young man's Game these Days. While the Foiling Monos will be somewhat slower than the Cats we had in AC 34 & 35 they will still be too fast for a 56-year old guy to handle it at the Helm IMO? The only role I can see Ken Read having is potentially CEO like Russell did in AC 34. And for my liking he's much better doing TV Commentary than stepping onto a Sailboat himself these Days.

I brought up Read because he has extensive AC experience, built and managed competitive/successful big boat campaigns in two Puma VOR's and Comanche and he is a very charismatic figure so he should be able to drum up sponsors and keep them happy.  Being President of North Sails doesn't hurt either.  Also, because he is 1 year older than Coutts, I did not bring up Read because I expected him to be on the boat.

Stop trying to read other peoples minds because you suck at it.  And, to you and only you, its Sir WetHog.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

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"it is like chasing the tasty bits in a burley stream"

WTF does that mean?

 

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I don't agree with Gladwell's assertion that a foiling mono would have a fixed ballasted keel.  If the boat is to foil in light air it will have either a canting keel which would spoil the boats ability to tack and be a drag in light air or no keel at all.

I think that a foiling mono should have no external ballast to minimise drag and improve performance in light air.  With windward and leeward foils the boat would need to be sailed flat so that external ballast does not offer any advantage over internal ballast for righting moment.. Capsize risk of the pitch pole type would be reduced but there would be increased risk of the conventional capsize which calls for a highly skilled crew.

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49 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

I don't agree with Gladwell's assertion that a foiling mono would have a fixed ballasted keel.  If the boat is to foil in light air it will have either a canting keel which would spoil the boats ability to tack and be a drag in light air or no keel at all.

I think that a foiling mono should have no external ballast to minimise drag and improve performance in light air.  With windward and leeward foils the boat would need to be sailed flat so that external ballast does not offer any advantage over internal ballast for righting moment.. Capsize risk of the pitch pole type would be reduced but there would be increased risk of the conventional capsize which calls for a highly skilled crew.

Sounds like it will be just like the kind of boat regular sailors can relate to. [lol]

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Stingers,

What do you think? If British billionaire Tony Langley is IN does that mean Land Rover BAR (Ben Ainslie) is OUT? I find that very odd not combining everything under one sole British Banner Challenger.

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14 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Stingers,

What do you think? If British billionaire Tony Langley is IN does that mean Land Rover BAR (Ben Ainslie) is OUT? I find that very odd not combining everything under one sole British Banner Challenger.

In his latest webcast, the one RG is referring to, TE did suggest the possibility of a Langley/BAR cooperative Challenge.

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3 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

In his latest webcast, the one RG is referring to, TE did suggest the possibility of a Langley/BAR cooperative Challenge.

That would make sense, wouldn't it? Langley has the big $$$$$ and Pounds Benny needs and Benny has the Team, Sailors, etc. to challenge. That also would tell us that commerical sponsorship alone (Land Rover) wouldn't be enough getting to the Starting Line.

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16 hours ago, CheekyMonkey said:

Are the Great Lakes an "arm of the sea?" Does anyone want to open that can of worms again, LOL?

I thought the NYSC ruled that the Great Lakes did indeed qualify as an "arm of the sea" when Buddy Melges brought his Heart of America Challenge to Fremantle in 1987 under the burgee of the Chicago Yacht Club...

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