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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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A possibly forward-leaning move also by Artemis?

AC36: Team Alinghi 'will study the Protocol carefully' to decide if it 'corresponds with our ambitions for the future'

2017-09-30 | TOM EHMAN

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2017/09/30/AC36-Team-Alinghi-will-study-the-Protocol-carefully-to-decide-if-it-corresponds-with-our-ambitions-for-the-future

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8 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Bottom Line:

Everything Clean says about Challengers/Teams entering for AC 36 should be disregarded until there is Semi-Official or Official Confirmation of it or an Official Press Release with the intent to challenge. I can't see 3 American Teams challenging because of the Design Advantage ETNZ/LR have. 2Newts IMO gave a good Explanation why Teams will be reluctant to challenge.

The only Team besides the Defender and CoR who made their Intentions very clear seems to be LRBAR.

And we should believe your dribble instead because.....why?

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I'm saying that $40M has already been committed to a NYYC-backed challenge, and I know that from one of the people who will get to spend it.

I do not think that you'll see lots of support from SA for that team depending on what happens in 2018 and 2020

 

Ah the potential Alinghi/NYYC marriage?  Yeah I'd rather pull for Ainsle and BAR.  

Also, I know you have the goods more times than not, Clean, and I appreciate the effort you put in, I am not a hater, but you also tease a lot, because you are not authorized, and sometimes nothing comes from the teases.  Was just looking for some meat on the bones.  Thank you.  

So we have real money committed by someone affiliated with NYYC that could get Alinghi back in the game and then a potential Devos family led Challenge to provide a Trump angle to the AC.   Fantastic.

@Clean any chance Ken Read is involved in this AC cycle?   He is the only person right now that I could support American Challenge wise. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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6 hours ago, WetHog said:

I would think so as well but Clean said one is confirmed.  A bit more significant than saying a given and scoop worthy beyond saying it on a message board right?  Clean has made comments of certainty like this before.  I am looking for actual confirmation. ;)

As far as worthy of my support, Clean is talking about the Devos family who just so happens to be directly involved with the current American administration.  I'll leave it at that.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:

You could support Lazza but NOT someone in the Trump administration? Seriously? 

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5 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Very well put WetHog. These teases are annoying sometimes. I have nothing against that but Clean should only tease something when it has some sort of 70% likelyhood of happening. Otherwise it just comes to nothing.

might be directed at you & Elk

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37 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

The stunts Clean pulled in the VOR Thread about Teams entering is enough for me to disregard his so-called potential Challengers here unless as I said it's Official or Semi-Official.

The most Sailing News Clean writes here on SA he is just plain wrong big time.

It's a crying shame you don't apply this logic to yourself - although at this rate we're all assuming you are putting a special effort into demonstrating how utterly incapable you are of engaging whatever few brain cells are huddled together in that cold deep dark cavern head of yours.

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5 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

It's a crying shame you don't apply this logic to yourself - although at this rate we're all assuming you are putting a special effort into demonstrating how utterly incapable you are of engaging whatever few brain cells are huddled together in that cold deep dark cavern head of yours.

Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

Son: "I hate you! I'm going to my room and never coming out!"

5 minutes pass

Dad: "What are you doing out here watching TV? I thought you were going to your room and never coming out"

Son: "I literally have NO IDEA what you are talking about."

 

Sound familiar? 

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I do wonder if JS could pull off getting a team together under a Red Bull banner - he still appears personally sponsored by them, they clearly had an interest in AC with the Youth activity, and that may now be at an end?

Red Bull is an example of a global brand that would have no qualms sponsoring an Australian team either (although I will look forward to the 'Arab Team' name callers referring to this as the Thai Team).

Is it worth the money for them?

 

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5 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

I do wonder if JS could pull off getting a team together under a Red Bull banner - he still appears personally sponsored by them, they clearly had an interest in AC with the Youth activity, and that may now be at an end?

Red Bull is an example of a global brand that would have no qualms sponsoring an Australian team either (although I will look forward to the 'Arab Team' name callers referring to this as the Thai Team).

Is it worth the money for them?

 

Jimmy always struck me as a prop rather than 1st five.

Certainly not the same calibre of person as Coutts or Dalton that can pull a syndicate together. More of a meat head that knows how to point the sharp end of the boat in the right direction. 

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2 hours ago, jaysper said:

You could support Lazza but NOT someone in the Trump administration? Seriously? 

I didn't support Oracle in AC35, I was pulling for ETNZ.  Made that pretty clear a couple years ago.

And I didn't necessarily say I wouldn't support a Devos Challenge, but considering the Trump angle I'll be skeptical in the seriousness of that Challenge until convinced otherwise.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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17 minutes ago, WetHog said:

I didn't support Oracle in AC35, I was pulling for ETNZ.  Made that pretty clear a couple years ago.

And I didn't necessarily say I wouldn't support a Devos Challenge, but considering the Trump angle I'll be skeptical in the seriousness of that Challenge until convinced otherwise.

WetHog  :ph34r:

The only political views of the DeVos family I am aware of, revolve around Betsy (Twitler's Secretary of Education) and she's a verifiable nut-job. The sailing side may be okay people. Edit: A mixed bag philanthropically but tied into many of the Koch agendas, very unfortunately: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_DeVos

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2 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I do wonder if JS could pull off getting a team together under a Red Bull banner - he still appears personally sponsored by them, they clearly had an interest in AC with the Youth activity, and that may now be at an end?

Red Bull is an example of a global brand that would have no qualms sponsoring an Australian team either (although I will look forward to the 'Arab Team' name callers referring to this as the Thai Team).

Is it worth the money for them?

 

I don't see it.  Foils or not, it doesn't sound like the AC75 would be extreme enough for a sponsor like Red Bull.

1 hour ago, jaysper said:

Jimmy always struck me as a prop rather than 1st five.

Certainly not the same calibre of person as Coutts or Dalton that can pull a syndicate together. More of a meat head that knows how to point the sharp end of the boat in the right direction. 

I am in the midst of reading his book, I just finished the chapter where he competed in Auckland with Young Australia.  JS gives a lot of credit to Syd Fisher for teaching him how to campaign big boat race teams which led to JS pulling together the Young Australia team that earned a tremendous amount of respect from the AC community with how they competed, and owned teams at the start, in AC 30 in a boat that was obsolete for AC29 when it was brand new.  Then he spent time with Luna Rossa and then Russell Coutts in Oracle.  Then factor in how he handled himself, and his team, during the comeback in AC34 and I wouldn't bet against him being able to build and run his own syndicate.  He has the experience, knowledge and PR savvy.  He just needs the opportunity.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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11 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

The only political views of the DeVos family I am aware of, revolve around Betsy (Twitler's Secretary of Education) and she's a verifiable nut-job. The sailing side may be okay people. Edit: A mixed bag philanthropically but tied into many of the Koch agendas, very unfortunately: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_DeVos

Betsy got her job not because she has an vast educational background.  She got her job because her husbands family gave Trump a lot of money during the campaign.  Thats enough to give me pause when considering a Devos led American AC Challenge.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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47 minutes ago, WetHog said:

I didn't support Oracle in AC35, I was pulling for ETNZ.  Made that pretty clear a couple years ago.

And I didn't necessarily say I wouldn't support a Devos Challenge, but considering the Trump angle I'll be skeptical in the seriousness of that Challenge until convinced otherwise.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Yep, but presumably you supported him in AC34 and whilst Orifice weren't so bad then, Lazza has pretty much always been a total prick.

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2 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Yep, but presumably you supported him in AC34 and whilst Orifice weren't so bad then, Lazza has pretty much always been a total prick.

Whatever, you have no issues with how AC36 is unfolding.  Pretty telling in its own right.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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7 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Yep, but presumably you supported him in AC34 and whilst Orifice weren't so bad then, Lazza has pretty much always been a total prick.

LE did a ~lot~ for the AC in the past two cycles.

The late change from AC62's to AC50's was a big issue but to my mind it actually made good sense and, importantly, it was by a majority-vote approval among the Challengers and still produced a better boat than the much-cruder AC72's. 

 

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5 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Very well put WetHog. These teases are annoying sometimes. I have nothing against that but Clean should only tease something when it has some sort of 70% likelyhood of happening. Otherwise it just comes to nothing.

Ah...so now you're the foreplay police? ;)

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

Whatever, you have no issues with how AC36 is unfolding.  Pretty telling in its own right.

WetHog  :ph34r:

My biggest issues with AC35 was all the rule changes. Even Bermuda didn't much concern me because it was declared as the venue well in advance. Nor did I have a problem with catamaran beyond the fact that they suck at match racing.

But the rule changes were a disgrace

I'm not sure how etnz can be accused of changing the rules when they've only just been set.

I do however have some issues with A.C. 36 this far, including:

1. I reserve the right to piss and moan along with everyone else if the boats suck at match racing.

2. The whole Auck/Italy thing sucks, but with a commie city council I understand the reasons. 

3. They have taken a lot longer than originally estimated to come out with the protocol.

4. The nationality rules are utterly pointless because they are so weak as I predicted months ago. I wish they just hadn't bothered.

 

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4 hours ago, jaysper said:

My biggest issues with AC35 was all the rule changes. Even Bermuda didn't much concern me because it was declared as the venue well in advance. Nor did I have a problem with catamaran beyond the fact that they suck at match racing.

But the rule changes were a disgrace

I'm not sure how etnz can be accused of changing the rules when they've only just been set.

I do however have some issues with A.C. 36 this far, including:

1. I reserve the right to piss and moan along with everyone else if the boats suck at match racing.

2. The whole Auck/Italy thing sucks, but with a commie city council I understand the reasons. 

3. They have taken a lot longer than originally estimated to come out with the protocol.

4. The nationality rules are utterly pointless because they are so weak as I predicted months ago. I wish they just hadn't bothered.

 

So, nothing much to see here. Pretty much all good, eh?

 

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1 hour ago, Sailbydate said:

So, nothing much to see here. Pretty much all good, eh?

 

Well, not all good but hardly all fucked up either.

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10 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

So, nothing much to see here. Pretty much all good, eh?

 

I'd say "we don't know which hemisphere yet" is pretty fucked up.

More fucked up for teams looking for sponsors than "we are changing the class of boat", in fact.

Exceeding the threshold of idiocy set by OTUSA was a tall order but hey, they've thrown that ball a loooong way here.

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2 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

All what myself and others are saying is this: The AC 75 Class Rule should have been released together with the Protocol. That would have been fair. It's not fair leaving potential Challengers in the dark on what boat the AC 36 would be sailed while the Defender/CoR will probably already have their Design for their respective boats half completed once the Rule is released.

Suck it up, cupcake. The Cup holder gets to set the rules, remember.

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50 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Already posted? (Probably by Stingray...)

http://www.cuplegend.com/reaction-de-franck-cammas-ben-ainslie-on-va-essayer-dy-retourner/

« On va essayer d’y retourner »
If my French doesn't fail me: "We will try to return..."

Thanks. Also includes 'Framework agreement cancelled'

--

A few hours after the publication of the Protocol of the America's Cup, Franck Cammas and Ben Ainslie wished to react. They will do everything to be of the next edition. It remains to find the budgets quickly.

Franck Cammas: "We were not surprised by the published protocol. The return to the monohull was not a surprise. I think it's a step backwards, but I think we can have divergent visions. These monohulls can be interesting. We're going to make sure that this next Cup happens with us. We do not have the precise rules of the boat but we can imagine that it is a boat similar to that of the Volvo Ocean Race. This was not unknown to us. The positive point is the rules of nationality. It is a guarantee of having spin-offs in France for the industry.We will work hard to find the budget that will be higher from 5 to 7M € / year compared to the previous edition.In this budget, wages represent 60-70%. We would need 22M € / year over 3 years. If I had had the choice, I will have continued in 50 feet and in multi. But we will go on this Cup, without complex, with envy and motivation. We will look at other sources of funding. It is likely that Groupama will not follow the next edition.They want to refocus on France. Norauto should make announcements at Nautic de Paris. 
for the time being, we have not had any contact with the COR or the Defender. We met with the other challengers with whom we signed the Framework Agreement in Bermuda and we agreed to cancel it. "

Ben Ainslie: "We are confident to go monohull. We have the whole team to go. With the gauge that will only be published in March, we hope with a collaborative approach. We are very comfortable with the rules of nationality that are not going to affect us. It is a good thing that the World Series continue in 2019. The Cup is one of the toughest sports trophies to win.Since 1995, Team New Zealand has won 3 times. One does not underestimate the difficulty to win it but one can succeed by learning from our mistakes. "

 
 

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27 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

. (Cammas) We do not have the precise rules of the boat but we can imagine that it is a boat similar to that of the Volvo Ocean Race. This was not unknown to us.

It could be that he's heard more than we have, through French design circles.

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On 9/29/2017 at 4:23 PM, A Class Sailor said:

You are good at defending what ETNZ does, so maybe you can explain something to me. There was a claim that foiling cats are not suited to the intended venue, which on the face of it seemed reasonable. BUT, isn't Auckland where ETNZ spent so much time training on their AC50. I am at a bit of a loss to understand why it was so good for training on the AC50 but AC50's are unsuitable to race there.

They trained most of the time in waters which were more representative of what they expected to encounter in Bermuda - which just happened to be be wayyyy out of sight from shore (spectators, etc). The potential course for the monos will be a lot closer in for shore-based spectators, but the conditions would demolish the AC50s.

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14 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Stingers,

This is interesting: Cammas expects a boat or a boat-rule for that matter similar to new Volvo Ocean Race Boat. What if it isn't similar? What does he do then? Same Question goes to Ben as well?

So, while Land Rover & Ben intend to challenge for AC 36 they could still back out of that I suspect if the boat isn't what they're expecting? What do you think?

Anybody can back out if they want, simply by not entering, but BAR will enter whatever the boat is. Ben has his eye on the prize and has done since he was young. Everything he has done has been about that, from his time at One World (which he hated) to choosing to switch from tactician on the race boat to helm of the tune up boat with TNZ. Going to Oracle was a means to an end that worked out far better than expected. The type of boat is irrelevant. The only reason why they would be out is if the protocol and boat rule made it impossible for a challenger to be competitive and that is not going to happen. You need to stop your childish obsession with making up reasons why BAR won't enter. They will. Period.

Camma has lost his sponsor and won't find the money whatever the boat rule is. He would have stood more chance with the foiling cats, but once Groupama were out, he s always going to be a long shot. The interesting thing I note is that he claims not to have had contact with either the defender or CoR when I know that Dalton has spoken to both Percy and Ainslie. I have no idea who contacted who, but Dalton has implied he has spoken to other potential challengers. Does that mean that Cammas isn't taking things very seriously or that he isn't being taken seriously. Add it all together and I can't see Cammas being in the next cup.

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^ The French are obsessed with multi-hulls. They see them at the pinnacle of yacht racing. I'm not surprised that FC's funding has dried up for the ACC change to monos.

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34 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Stingers,

Good luck @~Stingray~ , it appears you are now the sole target for this clueless conjecture, where you'll now have to explain what 'similar' means - perhaps you can encourage it to take place over PM and take one for the team? ;-)

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14 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

^ The French are obsessed with multi-hulls. They see them at the pinnacle of yacht racing. I'm not surprised that FC's funding has dried up for the ACC change to monos.

I wonder what the chances are of LV chipping in for a French campaign?

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On 10/1/2017 at 4:32 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

I'm saying that $40M has already been committed to a NYYC-backed challenge, and I know that from one of the people who will get to spend it.

I do not think that you'll see lots of support from SA for that team depending on what happens in 2018 and 2020

 

The circle would be complete with a challenge from NYYC..all AC36 needs now is an Aussie Challenge from the Royal Perth Yacht Club..

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20 hours ago, jaysper said:

My biggest issues with AC35 was all the rule changes. Even Bermuda didn't much concern me because it was declared as the venue well in advance. Nor did I have a problem with catamaran beyond the fact that they suck at match racing.

But the rule changes were a disgrace

I'm not sure how etnz can be accused of changing the rules when they've only just been set.

I do however have some issues with A.C. 36 this far, including:

1. I reserve the right to piss and moan along with everyone else if the boats suck at match racing.

2. The whole Auck/Italy thing sucks, but with a commie city council I understand the reasons. 

3. They have taken a lot longer than originally estimated to come out with the protocol.

4. The nationality rules are utterly pointless because they are so weak as I predicted months ago. I wish they just hadn't bothered.

 

I take back my previous comment then.  Its just you have been silent on the Oracle-esque parts of the AC36 protocol and process to this point.  I was surprised by your silence because I count you as one of the more even keeled ETNZ supports on this board.  

The biggest disappointment for me after the BS nationality rule is the Auckland/Italy venue issue.  I can understand the pissing contest with Auckland, Oracle ran into a similar issue with a very liberal SF, but if not Auckland then it goes to Italy boggles my mind.  There isn't another city in New Zealand that can step up to the plate in place of Auckland?  I know New Zealand doesn't have the surplus of coastal cities the US has but there isn't another city beside Auckland that could host the AC?  Wellington?  Just figured ETNZ/RNZYS would be the last trustee/defender to pull an Oracle in this instance.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

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5 minutes ago, WetHog said:

I take back my previous comment then.  Its just you have been silent on the Oracle-esque parts of the AC36 protocol and process to this point.  I was surprised by your silence because I count you as one of the more even keeled ETNZ supports on this board.  

The biggest disappointment for me after the BS nationality rule is the Auckland/Italy venue issue.  I can understand the pissing contest with Auckland, Oracle ran into a similar issue with a very liberal SF, but if not Auckland then it goes to Italy boggles my mind.  There isn't another city in New Zealand that can step up to the plate in place of Auckland?  I know New Zealand doesn't have the surplus of coastal cities the US has but there isn't another city beside Auckland that could host the AC?  Wellington?  Just figured ETNZ/RNZYS would be the last trustee/defender to pull an Oracle in this instance.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

The thing is, Hoggie we currently have a caretaker Government and no certainty which way the new Government will go. The problem of venue is infrastructure and the bucks to pay for it (local and central). All GD was saying was that if Auckland/New Zealand pollies can't get their collective shit together in time, then Italy can - as a backstop.

No harm in turning the blowtorch on their Y-fronts (as PM would say) to get the stuff rolling and also letting potential challengers know that there will be an AC36, even if New Zealand fucks the venue up, by not getting it done, or being late, or whatever.

If it can't happen in Auckland, it certainly can't happen anywhere else in New Zealand, it's as simple as that.

Having said that, the last time NZL was faced with a Defence and no infrastructure, Auckland & New Zealand rose to the challenge and, I've no doubt, will do so again. 

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9 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

The thing is, Hoggie we currently have a caretaker Government and no certainty which way the new Government will go. The problem of venue is infrastructure and the bucks to pay for it (local and central). All GD was saying was that if Auckland/New Zealand pollies can't get their collective shit together in time, then Italy can - as a backstop.

No harm in turning the blowtorch on their Y-fronts (as PM would say) to get the stuff rolling and also letting potential challengers know that there will be an AC36, even if New Zealand fucks the venue up, by not getting it done, or being late, or whatever.

If it can't happen in Auckland, it certainly can't happen anywhere else in New Zealand, it's as simple as that.

Having said that, the last time NZL was faced with a Defence and no infrastructure, Auckland & New Zealand rose to the challenge and, I've no doubt, will do so again. 

I hope Auckland and New Zealand rise to the occation as well because ETNZ defending in Italy would probably finish the AC with me and I would hope it would finish the AC with you and other Kiwi fans as well.  Its unacceptable.

In regards to infrastructure, for all the questionable shit Oracle did as Defender I think how they handled team bases was a postiive development.  They pulled it off with a minimal footprint in a place like Bermuda that has minimal available land, they also tried doing the same in SF.  Why can't Auckland do the same?  The days of the team bases we saw at the Viaduct for AC30 and 31 and in Valencia for AC32 are gone.  Or are GD and Patrizio the Poodle Master trying to resurrect those days of waste in regards to a big centralized team base area?  

I would think finding areas throughout the Auckland waterfront that can accommodate one or a handful of team bases like we saw for AC35 and then during Prada Cup or AC activities the teams congregate at a central location.  Is this not possible in the greater Auckland area?

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 minute ago, WetHog said:

I hope Auckland and New Zealand rise to the occation as well because ETNZ defending in Italy would probably finish the AC with me and I would hope it would finish the AC with you and other Kiwi fans as well.  Its unacceptable.

In regards to infrastructure, for all the questionable shit Oracle did as Defender I think how they handled team bases was a postiive development.  They pulled it off with a minimal footprint in a place like Bermuda that has minimal available land, they also tried doing the same in SF.  Why can't Auckland do the same?  The days of the team bases we saw at the Viaduct for AC30 and 31 and in Valencia for AC32 are gone.  Or are GD and Patrizio the Poodle Master trying to resurrect those days of waste in regards to a big centralized team base area?  

I would think finding areas throughout the Auckland waterfront that can accommodate one or a handful of teams and then during Prada Cup or AC activities the teams congregate at a central location.  Is this not possible in the greater Auckland area?

WetHog  :ph34r:

Who says they can't? You'll just have to wait like the rest of us. ;)

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20 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

If it can't happen in Auckland, it certainly can't happen anywhere else in New Zealand, it's as simple as that.

Why do you suggest this? I know the legal document Protocol's language very specifically specifies 'Auckland' precisely but are there really no (maybe Auckland-related) alternatives that would be easier to find or build some space at? 

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17 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Why do you suggest this? I know the Protocol specifies 'Auckland' but are there really no (maybe Auckland-related) alternatives that would be easier? 

How about Evans Bay in Wellington?  

xf3ol4.jpg

And its close to the airport.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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12 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Why do you suggest this? I know the legal document Protocol's language very specifically specifies 'Auckland' precisely but are there really no (maybe Auckland-related) alternatives that would be easier to find or build some space at? 

The AC is a big boy's game. It comes back to the available bucks, Stinger. Auckland is home to a third of the country's population and has the second highest average income (behind Wellington) of all regions. If you think infrastructure in Auckland is lacking, it's much worse in other population centres around the country. Wellington can't even agree to extend it's fucking airport runway and would rather waste ratepayers money on cycleways to nowhere.

I'm saying, if there is no public appetite for infrastructure development in Auckland, there won't be any, anywhere else.

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7 minutes ago, WetHog said:

How about Evans Bay in Wellington?  

xf3ol4.jpg

And its close to the airport.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

Ha, ha. Be a bloody brutal tow out to the race course in a screaming nor'wester (which is most of the time).

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

I take back my previous comment then.  Its just you have been silent on the Oracle-esque parts of the AC36 protocol and process to this point.  I was surprised by your silence because I count you as one of the more even keeled ETNZ supports on this board.  

The biggest disappointment for me after the BS nationality rule is the Auckland/Italy venue issue.  I can understand the pissing contest with Auckland, Oracle ran into a similar issue with a very liberal SF, but if not Auckland then it goes to Italy boggles my mind.  There isn't another city in New Zealand that can step up to the plate in place of Auckland?  I know New Zealand doesn't have the surplus of coastal cities the US has but there isn't another city beside Auckland that could host the AC?  Wellington?  Just figured ETNZ/RNZYS would be the last trustee/defender to pull an Oracle in this instance.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

But WHY are you disappointed with the nationality rule? Because its not harsh enough?

If this is the case, I can promise you that there would never be a nationality clause that will satisfy you unless it specifies that you have to be BORN in that country.

That is because it is a pretty easy process to BUY citizenship in most countries.

For me, I wish they hadn't bothered trying. I want to see kiwis on the kiwi boat and yanks on the American boat, but I just don't see any nationality clause that is reasonable also being practical.

 

With regards to the backup city, if I were honest I am not sure there is another city in NZ that is suitable.

Christchurch and Wellington are the only other cities with even remotely enough people (there aren't a lot of us fantastic kiwis Hoggie :D )

The problem with Christchurch is that it is actually NOT QUITE coastal. The problem with Wellington (and it breaks my heart to say this) is that it is LITERALLY THE WINDIEST CITY IN THE WORLD.

When the wind gets up over 100km/hr we call that "wind". When it gets above 140km/hr we call that pretty strong wind.

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Why do you suggest this? I know the legal document Protocol's language very specifically specifies 'Auckland' precisely but are there really no (maybe Auckland-related) alternatives that would be easier to find or build some space at? 

Aside from the lack of infrastructure SBD pointed out, which is valid but not insurmountable the reality is that the other alternatives aren't really alternatives.

As sad as it is to say, Wellington just has too much wind. We are literally the windiest city in the world and 100km/hr winds are no big deal. I don't even think twice about riding my motorbike to work in that weather. In fact, we had 140km/hr winds in February (that's Summer in case you didn't know) and I still plodded to work on the motorbike.

Christchurch on the other hand kinda looks like a coastal city if you look on a reasonably low resolution map, but actually its a reasonable distance and a decent hill away from the sea.

All the other cities are either inland or too small. Our next biggest coastal city is Dunedin which has a population of 120,000 and is quite frankly a little too close to Antarctica for most peoples liking.

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50 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Christchurch on the other hand kinda looks like a coastal city if you look on a reasonably low resolution map, but actually its a reasonable distance and a decent hill away from the sea.

Not to mention still under active and extensive repairs post EQ; and no guarantees there won't be another big shake.....

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1 minute ago, TimmyHate said:

Not to mention still under active and extensive repairs post EQ; and no guarantees there won't be another big shake.....

Actually, I had forgotten about that!

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Why do you suggest this? I know the legal document Protocol's language very specifically specifies 'Auckland' precisely but are there really no (maybe Auckland-related) alternatives that would be easier to find or build some space at? 

Its not about finding space. Its about holding the event in a city that is synonymous with Sailing. Auckland is known for its sailing heritage, and its Americas Cup and Whitbread heritage. There is plenty of space elsewhere, but No, there is no other venue in NZ that could host the Cup.

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2 hours ago, trt131 said:

I am sure Winston will make it happen in Northland somewhere.  It could be the key to his puzzle.

We dumped the prick as our MP. No way he's interested in Northland anymore.

Shame the fucker made the 5% threshold though.

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14 hours ago, jaysper said:

But WHY are you disappointed with the nationality rule? Because its not harsh enough?

If this is the case, I can promise you that there would never be a nationality clause that will satisfy you unless it specifies that you have to be BORN in that country.

That is because it is a pretty easy process to BUY citizenship in most countries.

For me, I wish they hadn't bothered trying. I want to see kiwis on the kiwi boat and yanks on the American boat, but I just don't see any nationality clause that is reasonable also being practical.

 

With regards to the backup city, if I were honest I am not sure there is another city in NZ that is suitable.

Christchurch and Wellington are the only other cities with even remotely enough people (there aren't a lot of us fantastic kiwis Hoggie :D )

The problem with Christchurch is that it is actually NOT QUITE coastal. The problem with Wellington (and it breaks my heart to say this) is that it is LITERALLY THE WINDIEST CITY IN THE WORLD.

When the wind gets up over 100km/hr we call that "wind". When it gets above 140km/hr we call that pretty strong wind.

Not sure harsh is a word I would use in regards to the Nationality rule.  Not comprehensive enough for my liking?  I like that better.  Regardless, whats done is done.  ETNZ has a high bar to meet when it comes to AC36 due to their own words, and I hope they meet that high bar, but right now I am skeptical.  Having said that, I will refrain from more criticism until things shake out.  

As for Wellington as an alternative venue, yeah winds like that and AC boats don't go well together.  Oh well.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, WetHog said:

Not sure harsh is a word I would use in regards to the Nationality rule.  Not comprehensive enough for my liking?  I like that better.  Regardless, whats done is done.  ETNZ has a high bar to meet when it comes to AC36 due to their own words, and I hope they meet that high bar, but right now I am skeptical.  Having said that, I will refrain from more criticism until things shake out.  

As for Wellington as an alternative venue, yeah winds like that and AC boats don't go well together.  Oh well.

WetHog  :ph34r:

I always knew that there would be some aspects of this AC that I would be disappointed with due to everyone having different tastes and I can live with that.

I hated the AC50'S and made no secret of it as well as the 2 minute races. But these weren't reasons that I called Orifice a bunch of cunts.

I called them cunts because of all the rule changes that were slammed through against the will of etnz and LR  (particularly the boat change).

Right now etnz have a clean bill of health with regards to that but I am not particularly impressed with the March deadline for the class rule.

To my mind if you are going to do that, you should keep any other teams updated on a fortnightly basis so that they can get their design process underway.

That said, I believe that simply knowing it is a foiling mono is enough to kick off development on your simulation tools.

But still - it doesn't feel entirely right to me.

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On 9/29/2017 at 1:59 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

A year after they won the cup. For those with ESL issues, that means 9 months from now, or long after ETNZ will have already released the Class rule, venue designation, and pretty much everything else.  

 

As for the number of challengers, I know for a fact that there will be at least one other Italian challenger and most likely two.  One American challenger is already funded thanks to the Devos family.  BAR is another one, and Australia will be there too. 

Italy: 2 confirmed, 3 likely

America: 1 confirmed, 2 likely, 3 possible

England: 1 confirmed

Australia: 1 all but confirmed

China: Likely

NZ: 1 Defender

So that's six definites with 2 more highly likely, 2 more likely, and that's before anyone else even throws their hat in.

France? Sweden? Holland? 

Question for you A4E - if Alinghi enter, are they idiots?

 

 

 

 

I hope you are right, but I think you are wildly optimistic. 

ITALY: I can see how maybe there is a second challenger, but a third? At $100m+ a pop? With LR already in and controlling so many of the strings? I don't buy it until an announcement is made. 

USA: The one "confirmed" you discuss is one that has, at best, confirmed their interest. You say they have $40m lined up. Great. Where's the rest? Or are they planning on being AC36's version of Team France? Again, until there is an announcement it is nothing more than some very wealthy people talking seriously about spending a lot of dollars - it is not yet confirmed. At best, at this point, the DeVos challenge should be rated "possible." And beyond them, a second or third challenge? From whom? Who is even reserving talented sailors yet? 

ENGLAND: Sir Ben has "confirmed" his intent. But he hasn't got enough money yet. Until they put ink on paper they are no more than "likely."

AUSSIE: Totally agreed it makes sense, but no one has confirmed anything. At best, and Aussie challenge is "possible," like the DeVos challenge. 

CHINA: Lots of money, not many sailors. Has to be considered less likely than DeVos or Australian entry. 

FRANCE: The team is willing but doesn't have money. And how do they raise significantly more than they did for AC35 without Groupama? Rank them as "unlikely."

SWEDEN: The statement out of Artemis was quite negative. Rank them as "unlikely" as well. 

HOLLAND: First I've heard of it. Do you know anything here?

ALINGHI: Their statement was also quite negative. 

 

You say 6 definite, 2 highly likely, and 2 likely. (Applying probabilities to your totals, I put 8 or 9 on the starting line)

I see it as 2 definitely, 1 likely, 3 possible (2nd Italian, DeVos, Aussie), and about a half dozen circling around looking at the prices on the menu. Applying probabilities to my totals, I put 3 or 4 on the starting line. 

I hope I'm wrong. 

You have more inside dope that I do, but keep in mind the motivations of those telling you they are definitely in: they have to line up talent and if they say they are just looking then they risk losing the good talent to other, more definitive teams. It doesn't cost them a thing to talk a big game now and back away later, which is exactly what I believe will happen. 

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On 9/30/2017 at 3:13 PM, WetHog said:

Ah the potential Alinghi/NYYC marriage?  Yeah I'd rather pull for Ainsle and BAR.  

Also, I know you have the goods more times than not, Clean, and I appreciate the effort you put in, I am not a hater, but you also tease a lot, because you are not authorized, and sometimes nothing comes from the teases.  Was just looking for some meat on the bones.  Thank you.  

So we have real money committed by someone affiliated with NYYC that could get Alinghi back in the game and then a potential Devos family led Challenge to provide a Trump angle to the AC.   Fantastic.

@Clean any chance Ken Read is involved in this AC cycle?   He is the only person right now that I could support American Challenge wise. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

I believe the DeVos thing is actually in concert with the NYYC, and possibly the Chicago group.  The other loud noises coming from the Left Coast.

The way the NYYC challenge is coming together indicates it will be a bit of a shit show but it's very early days.

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36 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

I hope you are right, but I think you are wildly optimistic. 

ITALY: I can see how maybe there is a second challenger, but a third? At $100m+ a pop? With LR already in and controlling so many of the strings? I don't buy it until an announcement is made. 

USA: The one "confirmed" you discuss is one that has, at best, confirmed their interest. You say they have $40m lined up. Great. Where's the rest? Or are they planning on being AC36's version of Team France? Again, until there is an announcement it is nothing more than some very wealthy people talking seriously about spending a lot of dollars - it is not yet confirmed. At best, at this point, the DeVos challenge should be rated "possible." And beyond them, a second or third challenge? From whom? Who is even reserving talented sailors yet? 

ENGLAND: Sir Ben has "confirmed" his intent. But he hasn't got enough money yet. Until they put ink on paper they are no more than "likely."

AUSSIE: Totally agreed it makes sense, but no one has confirmed anything. At best, and Aussie challenge is "possible," like the DeVos challenge. 

CHINA: Lots of money, not many sailors. Has to be considered less likely than DeVos or Australian entry. 

FRANCE: The team is willing but doesn't have money. And how do they raise significantly more than they did for AC35 without Groupama? Rank them as "unlikely."

SWEDEN: The statement out of Artemis was quite negative. Rank them as "unlikely" as well. 

HOLLAND: First I've heard of it. Do you know anything here?

ALINGHI: Their statement was also quite negative. 

 

You say 6 definite, 2 highly likely, and 2 likely. (Applying probabilities to your totals, I put 8 or 9 on the starting line)

I see it as 2 definitely, 1 likely, 3 possible (2nd Italian, DeVos, Aussie), and about a half dozen circling around looking at the prices on the menu. Applying probabilities to my totals, I put 3 or 4 on the starting line. 

I hope I'm wrong. 

You have more inside dope that I do, but keep in mind the motivations of those telling you they are definitely in: they have to line up talent and if they say they are just looking then they risk losing the good talent to other, more definitive teams. It doesn't cost them a thing to talk a big game now and back away later, which is exactly what I believe will happen. 

You're wrong about a lot of your assumptions.  Most importantly, that teams don't have commitments from the funders.  Ben, NYYC, and two other italian teams already have enough pledged to do a basic campaign.  In the NYYC case, the 40m is from ONE BACKER.  They have three other billionaires involved...

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47 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Keep in mind: Even if Teams entering they can still withdraw....

ACWS in the lead up to AC 34 saw the follwing Teams compete:

Aleph

ETNZ

Energy Team

Korea

China

Artemis

Oracle

BAR

LR

and Defender Oracle

Only 4 Teams (Defender Oracle Team USA, Artemis Racing, ETNZ and LR) made it to the start line.

Which is why I'm sticking to my 3-4 teams estimate. Despite Clean's note about the money/backing existing, I don't see why you'd do a "basic" campaign in this day and age where being competitive will take so much more. 

Unless you don't care about winning. 

Clean, the implied over/under between your number (8 to 9) and mine (3 to 4) is 6. Let's see if we can remember this post when the regatta begins and come back to it... ;)

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^ I think both billionaires and syndicates will evaluate both the expense and the viability - potential for a win - before committing, and that neither of those questions have been clearly answered yet. It seems to me that ETNZ has been moving pretty quickly, and that we will know a lot more fairly soon, but I wouldn't put money on anything just yet.

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On 30/09/2017 at 11:01 PM, ~Stingray~ said:

The only political views of the DeVos family I am aware of, revolve around Betsy (Twitler's Secretary of Education) and she's a verifiable nut-job. The sailing side may be okay people. Edit: A mixed bag philanthropically but tied into many of the Koch agendas, very unfortunately: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_DeVos

Don't forget the Blackwater tie up! 

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2017/04/08/blackwater-founder-erik-prince/100161630/

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18 minutes ago, mad said:

Thanks.. Yikes.... Privatizing warfare for profit-making is even worse than privatizing prisons and privatizing deregulated public education. All in the name of a Christian God of course! Lol

Unfortunately that family sounds to be in it, given how they have the only obvious two ingredients required - Many $Billions plus some hint of even casual interest.

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5 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I believe the DeVos thing is actually in concert with the NYYC, and possibly the Chicago group.  The other loud noises coming from the Left Coast.

The way the NYYC challenge is coming together indicates it will be a bit of a shit show but it's very early days.

Thank you for the response.  Devos an NYYC?  Interesting.  I just hope they don't resurrect the Young America thing.  Not a winning team name.

No shot of Ken Reid getting something together for AC36?

I'll hang up and listen.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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Slingsby: "Now's the time to do it. I've got a couple more [Cup campaigns] left in me. I'd like my legacy to be an Australian team that's campaigning long after I'm gone."

Good on ya cobber!! Get Betrand aboard to open some potential sponsors' doors for you - hope you get the resources to launch a Clahhenge. I doubt Spithill is a serious consideration for Slingsby's initiative, but GAshby would be a good fit...

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From what I have heard, I give the AUS challenge absolutely zero chance of getting up and running. Not enough money and already out of time.

Word is that Slingers and Spithill aren't talking and Gashby will either go with ETNZ or drop out.

Let the haters begin.

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37 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

How would they be "already out of time"?

Agreed. This statement makes no sense.

Right now the only thing any of the teams can do is build a team, establish the logistics and work on their simulation software.

With regards to the question about funding, I suspect this is a likely possibility. Australia has enough rich people, but how many of them are interested in throwing a shit pot of it in a black hole? 

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

How would they be "already out of time"?

Here's how I see it. Slingsby will have key guys he wants. You have to assume he will want Kyle Langford and Sam Newton as he has done 2 campaigns with them and they are friends. I am guessing he would also want Nathan Outteridge and Goobs. Does anybody think that the top Australians won't be approached by teams from other countries? The nationality clause isn't that strong. For instance, Ashby is believed to have an offer on the table from NZ. I think it is inconceivable that the others won't be snapped up.

If you are a new team, there will not be a big choice of experienced AC campaigners from your own country and even if it is only a few, you need some in a new team. Most of the guys Slingsby would want are at the top of the game and would be high up any list of people to try to sign.

If Slingsby loses his key people to other teams because he cannot sign them, he won't go ahead even if he could get the money later because he wouldn't want to do it with the B team of Australian sailing. I would bet a lot of money that some of the guys already have been approached by teams outside of Australia. They cannot wait and see if the money is raised because they then won't have a job. Slingsby needs to be able to offer them them something now. He can't, hence he is out of time.

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I don't know about other teams, but BAR has already signed key people and have been talking to others who are they are considering bringing in to strengthen the team. I expect to see a few "Johnny Foreigners" signed to the cause. Makes sense that top guys are having conversations already. A real case of "the quick and the dead". The later it takes to get money, the less good people there will be.

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Because I personally LOATH my own country (more so lately than ever before) I say ADVANCE AUSTRALIA! thinking of Bond with the fucking wrench in hand!

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37 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Here's how I see it. Slingsby will have key guys he wants. You have to assume he will want Kyle Langford and Sam Newton as he has done 2 campaigns with them and they are friends. I am guessing he would also want Nathan Outteridge and Goobs. Does anybody think that the top Australians won't be approached by teams from other countries? The nationality clause isn't that strong. For instance, Ashby is believed to have an offer on the table from NZ. I think it is inconceivable that the others won't be snapped up.

If you are a new team, there will not be a big choice of experienced AC campaigners from your own country and even if it is only a few, you need some in a new team. Most of the guys Slingsby would want are at the top of the game and would be high up any list of people to try to sign.

If Slingsby loses his key people to other teams because he cannot sign them, he won't go ahead even if he could get the money later because he wouldn't want to do it with the B team of Australian sailing. I would bet a lot of money that some of the guys already have been approached by teams outside of Australia. They cannot wait and see if the money is raised because they then won't have a job. Slingsby needs to be able to offer them them something now. He can't, hence he is out of time.

That's a pretty powerful argument, ACS. I hope you're wrong, but suspect you're right on the money.

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Everyone is talking about the sailors. Sailors do not win AC's, they can lose it but not win.

What Aust need is a really good campaign director.

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

Here's how I see it. Slingsby will have key guys he wants. You have to assume he will want Kyle Langford and Sam Newton as he has done 2 campaigns with them and they are friends. I am guessing he would also want Nathan Outteridge and Goobs. Does anybody think that the top Australians won't be approached by teams from other countries? The nationality clause isn't that strong. For instance, Ashby is believed to have an offer on the table from NZ. I think it is inconceivable that the others won't be snapped up.

If you are a new team, there will not be a big choice of experienced AC campaigners from your own country and even if it is only a few, you need some in a new team. Most of the guys Slingsby would want are at the top of the game and would be high up any list of people to try to sign.

If Slingsby loses his key people to other teams because he cannot sign them, he won't go ahead even if he could get the money later because he wouldn't want to do it with the B team of Australian sailing. I would bet a lot of money that some of the guys already have been approached by teams outside of Australia. They cannot wait and see if the money is raised because they then won't have a job. Slingsby needs to be able to offer them them something now. He can't, hence he is out of time.

I disagree, I think we are going to see an Australian challenger, and Slingsby will be in it.

He wouldn't be sticking his head/hand up if he didn't already have some backing... They will be trying to do an ETNZ and get corporate sponsorship on board like BAR - the days of EB and LE fucking the cup with their pretend teams of rent-boys is coming to an end... ETNZ has set the template for sustainable AC teams with national representation and BAR was second, AU might very well be next.

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48 minutes ago, animeproblem said:

Because I personally LOATH my own country (more so lately than ever before) I say ADVANCE AUSTRALIA!

There's an ugly mood all over. USA yes but UK, France, Germany, much of eastern Europe. I don't think AUS politics is all sweetness and light either.

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Fucking hell guys pull it together! & forget about the wrench, use a MAKITA impact, real subtle how I worked the "Japanesey" in there right!

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Good one Dogwatch, I gather that AUS politics has turned toward the "we must have coal" fuck the rest of the world attitude, interestingly the Russians have a similar attitude regarding climate change, "warmer summers YAY" they may be singing a different tune when the perma-frost melts, & there sits AUS. perhaps the first continent that becomes unlivable, the canary in the coal mine so to speak

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4 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I disagree, I think we are going to see an Australian challenger, and Slingsby will be in it.

He wouldn't be sticking his head/hand up if he didn't already have some backing... They will be trying to do an ETNZ and get corporate sponsorship on board like BAR - the days of EB and LE fucking the cup with their pretend teams of rent-boys is coming to an end... ETNZ has set the template for sustainable AC teams with national representation and BAR was second, AU might very well be next.

You really haven't got a clue, have you. let's start with your idea that the days of the big B's are over. What the hell do you think the Italian COR is? LR is the play thing of a B industrialist who will use his company to fund the campaign. There is no difference between what Bertelli is doing and what Ellison did in terms of structure. Just look at who he hired in the past, starting with James Spithill. I will am absolutely confident in saying that the majority of teams in the next edition will be backed by  VRO (very rich owner)

 BAR is set up very, very differently to ETNZ. It relies on a founding board of directors who provided a large amount of money that allowed the team to move forward. The estimates of how much they put in range between 30-40% of the total budget. The whole marketing pitch is based on a patriotic slant unlike anything that ETNZ has done. Almost every major sponsor is a British company (yes, land Rover is British despite who the owners are) while almost every single major ETNZ sponsor is an overseas company. Both models are really tough to replicate. Look at how many have tried to go the non VRO route and those who have made it have always been too under funded to make an impact.

Anybody serious needs to raise US$100m. From what most people from Australia post, there isn't that sort of money available. I also would question whether Tom Slingsby is the right man to be trying to head such a campaign. He has one gold medal, he as the junior tactician (to Ainslie) on a winning campaign but was the senior tactician on a losing one. Enough Australians are saying he needs to get somebody senior to raise the money and somebody as a campaign director. That doesn't fill me with confidence about Slingsby's abilities to pull this off.

I also buy into ACS's story about Slingsby being out of time. I would add that any team that wants to be competitive needs to have the core of the design team in place by the time there is an announcement of the rule, otherwise they will fall even further behind. The set up of a design team takes a long time because besides the design side of things, they need to set up their own analytical programs, because those who develop the best tools have a huge advantage. Even if you don't buy into the need to sign sailors today, you need to be signing design staff this month.

 

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No shot of the Aussie Govt putting some loot in the kitty to front the challenge early and attract B's by minimizing their risk?

WetHog  :ph34r:

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5 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You really haven't got a clue, have you. let's start with your idea that the days of the big B's are over. What the hell do you think the Italian COR is? LR is the play thing of a B industrialist who will use his company to fund the campaign. There is no difference between what Bertelli is doing and what Ellison did in terms of structure. Just look at who he hired in the past, starting with James Spithill. I will am absolutely confident in saying that the majority of teams in the next edition will be backed by  VRO (very rich owner)

 BAR is set up very, very differently to ETNZ. It relies on a founding board of directors who provided a large amount of money that allowed the team to move forward. The estimates of how much they put in range between 30-40% of the total budget. The whole marketing pitch is based on a patriotic slant unlike anything that ETNZ has done. Almost every major sponsor is a British company (yes, land Rover is British despite who the owners are) while almost every single major ETNZ sponsor is an overseas company. Both models are really tough to replicate. Look at how many have tried to go the non VRO route and those who have made it have always been too under funded to make an impact.

Anybody serious needs to raise US$100m. From what most people from Australia post, there isn't that sort of money available. I also would question whether Tom Slingsby is the right man to be trying to head such a campaign. He has one gold medal, he as the junior tactician (to Ainslie) on a winning campaign but was the senior tactician on a losing one. Enough Australians are saying he needs to get somebody senior to raise the money and somebody as a campaign director. That doesn't fill me with confidence about Slingsby's abilities to pull this off.

I also buy into ACS's story about Slingsby being out of time. I would add that any team that wants to be competitive needs to have the core of the design team in place by the time there is an announcement of the rule, otherwise they will fall even further behind. The set up of a design team takes a long time because besides the design side of things, they need to set up their own analytical programs, because those who develop the best tools have a huge advantage. Even if you don't buy into the need to sign sailors today, you need to be signing design staff this month.

 

In your desperate attempt to feverishly argue you wind up contradicting your own logic... so lets break this down for you...

I said "the days are coming to an end", not that they are over. LR likely won't survive past PBs life, unless it eventually morphs into the ETNZ/BAR style team - this is proving my point mate.

Your attempt to create a distinction between ETNZ and BAR is laughable, mainly because they are more similar than you realise, and secondly because whatever differences there are (duh day got difident coloz! etc), its the things that make them the same that are important - and my point still stands. Syndicate teams based on a national effort and sustainable sources of funding through consortium sponsorship.

FWIW Your description of BAR also describes ETNZ so you further prove my point - a board of directors responsible for x% of foundation capital. Then a marketing pitch built off local culture of innovation, fielding a bunch of local and global sponsors. So if the difference you see here is mix of sponsors or something then you're walking on very thin ice.

Good on you for relying on posts on a fucking sailing forum to inform you about Australia. I spend several months there every year conducting business all over the country, I got back from a week long session in Sydney just on Friday and let me tell you there is plenty of money there. Again, what is your argument - not enough time for Slingsby or not enough $$$ in AU?

In any event, you have your position, I have mine, time will tell I guess...

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4 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

You nailed it. That is indeed the biggest thing of all. You need a "Core Design Team" in place already even before the Rule is released. That is what BAR didn't have for AC 35. They had to scramble all over the place to put it together setting them far back.

Right now only 3 Teams have a "Core Design Team" in place ready to go:

# 1 The Defender Emirates Team New Zealand

# 2 The CoR Luna Rossa Challenge

# 3 Land Rover Ben Ainslie Racing

Oracle's design team was pretty good, for the most part.  Any word on where members of that team are heading?  Would be interesting to follow.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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27 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Oracle's design team was pretty good, for the most part.  Any word on where members of that team are heading?  Would be interesting to follow.

WetHog  :ph34r:

I think Orifice's design team were excellent. They optimised the shit out of their boat within the "traditional notion" of a foiling cat, just as Artemis did.

Where both teams failed was that they didn't have a culture of innovation and risk taking, which is something that I am pleased to say that ETNZ has always had, with the exception of 2007 which can be put down to the cluster fuck of 2003.

Lets look at the different innovations from them over the years:

 

1995 - Sailor led design

2000 - Knuckle bow and millennium rig.

2003 - HULA: I don't care what people say about the HULA. Firstly it WAS innovative and secondly, we have no idea if it was effective because the rest of the boat sucked such arse.

2007 - Nothing much: see comment above.

2013 - Foiling

2017 - I don't think I need to list these do I?

 

I would think that even ETNZ/LR would be taking a good hard look at the talent within Artemis and Orifice and seeing if/where they could fit into the team.

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Having a design team in place early may not be as much an advantage as some are claiming - letting others make the early mistakes and then coming in with the benefit of knowing what is working and what ain't could be just as valuable... having a spy team in place early might be the better approach!

Which team's funding, sailing and design approach wins will, as always, be what drives the interest in this crazy event.

I think Oracle's big mistake was being too data-driven at the last event. Data-driven design is about optimising every last detail of an already close to optimal design, but by definition it rules out innovation, because its about looking at numbers and then refining, rather than throwing away the blueprint and thinking outside the box (rule).

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9 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

at https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/97524499/swiss-syndicate-alinghi-hint-at-americas-cup-return-in-auckland

Bertarelli and Ellison have had a rocky Cup relationship and Ellison's reported wavering on contesting Auckland will likely add to the temptation for the Swiss syndicate's return to the sport's biggest stage.

 

Yeah, but that's just Stuff rehashing the same letter that was published here a couple of days ago.

I don't think Ernie will be back. Certainly I hope he won't.

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32 minutes ago, jaysper said:

Yeah, but that's just Stuff rehashing the same letter that was published here a couple of days ago.

I don't think Ernie will be back. Certainly I hope he won't.

True about Stuff but the fact that Alinghi did not simply reject or stay silent on the prospect and instead posted themselves how it's a consideration, looks pretty forward-leaning.

TE noted somewhere that legal counsel Melinda Erkelens presented her take on things to an Artemis meeting recently, suggesting they have also not ruled it out yet - or else why bother with the similar consideration?

Both teams being $B backed merits a close watch, especially >$10B Bertelli who's worth several times both P$B and TT.

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9 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

 

 BAR is set up very, very differently to ETNZ. It relies on a founding board of directors who provided a large amount of money that allowed the team to move forward. The estimates of how much they put in range between 30-40% of the total budget.

 

That's pretty much exactly how ETNZ is set up, though change 'founding' for 'funding...De Nora is by far the biggest funding source and I'm not sure there is a single standout deep pocket for the poms.

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9 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That's pretty much exactly how ETNZ is set up, though change 'founding' for 'funding...De Nora is by far the biggest funding source and I'm not sure there is a single standout deep pocket for the poms.

and Stephen Tindall on TNZ's board is not short of a few bob and enormously patriotic!

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